Latest / Authentic Living / The Impact of a Lack of Inclusion in our Society with Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman

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The Impact of a Lack of Inclusion in our Society with Dr. Rehman Abdulrehman · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Hi, everyone.
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  It's Al Roxanne Derhodge, authentic living with Roxanne.
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  Thanks for tuning in again today.
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  Today, I have a special guest, Doctor Raymond Abdul Raymond, and, he's a diversity and
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  inclusion specialist.
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  So Raymond, thanks so much for coming on today.
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  Thanks.
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  So I'm
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  gonna tell you a little bit about his background, and we're gonna just jump to, you
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  know, his expertise and kind of what, what's needed to know for organizations and leaders
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  about diversity inclusion, but also what's happening out there, in the workplace now with
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  some of the stresses that we're experiencing So a bit about him, he's a clinical and consulting
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  psychologist, and he works with, to with the companies and individuals to catalyze inside
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  oriented change.
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  He has worked with a range of organizations, including the CBC, the Royal Canadian amount of
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  police, Mastercard, amongst others.
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  And, he's 15 years of, experience in innovative application with psychology.
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  He's the assistant professor at the University of Manitoba and has been a visiting professor
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  at State University of Zanzibar.
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  And, he's also a TEDx speaker, which I did not check that out, Raymond, I I will, on resolving
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  unconscious bias.
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  He loves cakes, which is good to know what kind of cakes we'll have to find out.
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  And he's the bat man.
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  He's a Robin to a seven year old bat man.
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  So Who's a seven year old Batman?
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  My son.
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  Oh, and what's his name?
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  Yeah.
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  His name is Youssef.
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  Oh, awesome.
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  Awesome.
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  Well, thanks Thanks for taking the time to come on a chat, today about, topic that I know is so
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  very important, has always been important and, but I think it's even more so now with kind of
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  the, the highlight, I would say, with everything happening on a global, perspective
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  around diversity inclusion.
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  Saruman, tell me a little bit about, what got you involved in that particular specialty in
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  consulting with organizations?
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  Well, okay.
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  So I got into the business of psychology because I wanted to understand why people did
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  things and how to help fix a lot of behavioral problems.
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  And I think And then so my initial goal was medicine, I think, as a young person, but
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  medicine told us how, not why.
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  And ultimately, I think in order to make change, we have to understand why things
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  happen.
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  So I got into the profession for that.
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  You know, a a clear clinical focus of mine was anxiety and depression and cross cultural work
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  as well too.
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  But I always resented being the one guy everybody went to for diversity and inclusion
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  work because, I I didn't feel the The work was tied to just people of color.
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  I believe that this was work that impacted all of us, but, you know, when I had my son, And
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  prior to then, actually, they'd already been doing a lot of consulting with organizations.
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  But when I had my son it was really striking to watch the impact of a lack of inclusion in our
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  society on him.
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  And it also made me realize how much I was tolerating and just letting go to carry on
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  living as smooth of a life as possible.
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  And these are issues that are coming up for everybody, and I realized it was about time
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  that I did something about it.
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  And that's when I started to move a lot of my practice into consulting and helping
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  organizations, address these issues of how to be more equitable in their workforce.
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  Because ultimately, at the end of the day, this is a mental health issue, I would
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  For sure.
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  Why were you seeing with your son that made you brought that level of consciousness to you to
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  say, I I need to some do something about it.
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  Yeah.
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  I talked about this in my TED Talk.
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  There was one critical event that really changed.
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  And the problem is that I still see these issues, but the one event that changed is when
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  he said to me, who's not even three yet, and he said, He said, papa, I don't wanna be a Muslim
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  anymore.
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  Now at that age, I mean, for him, what does that mean?
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  You know, like, it's not like he's practicing everything.
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  Like, he he just had this identity and that he knew that the identity was different from other
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  people.
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  And when I asked him why it was that he didn't wanna be a Muslim anymore, he said it's because
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  PAW Patrol only celebrates Christmas.
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  And so He didn't see himself reflected in the world, and the research strongly supports that
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  when we don't have a sense of representation or when there is a lack of inclusion, people of
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  color tend to internalize these, I'd say internalized racism.
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  And they begin to start to want to shift themselves to be somebody they're not.
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  And add part is no matter how much people of color shifted themselves to try to quote,
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  unquote assimilate, they're never really let into the inner circle.
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  Right?
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  Like, you you're kind of pat it on the head and patronize.
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  You're kind of let in a little bit, but I mean, we even see this in the workplace and who we
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  hire.
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  You know, for employees are 40% more likely to hire people with Anglicized names.
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  So as and that's just we are changing our names and our identities to fit in.
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  So that's what I saw in my son.
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  I mean, I and I continue to see them, you know, despite me being a psychologist and, working
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  with him and and working on issues of inclusion, you know, he lives in a world where
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  months.
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  Of course.
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  There are greater influences out there outside of me.
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  And the stuff that he faces difficulty with even as a child, you know, people of color,
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  face, and cultural, and ethnic, and religious minorities face on a regular basis, even as
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  adult So his experience is not unique to him as a child.
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  It's it's unfortunately all too common.
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  And I think not addressing this in the work place and and in our society, it really, I
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  think, allows us to sustain a complacency that promotes systemic racism.
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  And ultimately, the poor mental health, I think, of a lot of citizens of the world.
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  So let's talk a little bit about, heightened awareness.
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  Prior to, you know, the stressful space that we're in and we will be in for a while, how did
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  senior leadership or CEOs look at diversity inclusion, with the companies that you work
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  with?
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  You know, I think, I've been fortunate.
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  I think that there are the companies who approach me are the ones who are motivated to
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  make change.
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  The dilemma that we face is that even when people are well meaning, the way in which they
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  tend to approach issues of becoming more equitable and inclusive tends to be a bit of a
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  bandage approach, or it tends not to be, an initiative that is always from a fully
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  understanding point of view of what it feels like.
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  And so the way that these companies or any of us actually typically try to approach issues of
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  equity inclusion is that we try to approach, our understanding of the experience of other
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  people and their world view And so we try to understand how they are different versus how we
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  are similar.
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  And I think that's the biggest problem to begin with.
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  But furthermore, we don't look at ourselves.
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  We don't look at what we are doing to promote that feeling in other people that they feel
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  different.
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  We just wanna know how they're different versus why they feel different and what we are doing
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  to make them feel that way.
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  So when I do this work with organizations, typically, that's the first thing I have them
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  do is I have them start to identify their own biases, the own systemic racism that might
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  exist in a workplace.
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  Even when they're well meaning because the truth is that we can all be well meaning.
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  We can all say we're not racist, and that may be you know, in the heart's intent, very true.
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  But when we're complacent about certain policies and practices, these policies and
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  practices have existed for a very long time, and
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  we've allowed them to
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  perpetuate, systemic racism that marginalizes people.
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  So tell me about a banded solution.
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  Give me an example of potentially what an a company might do to create a a band aid
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  solution versus looking you're you're talking at them looking at the overall perspective from
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  a huge system, from a macro system, all the way down to the front line, which is very micro and
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  how that might show in behavior.
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  But what's what's something give me an example of a bandage solution that maybe a company
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  might do or that you've worked with, to address the concern at that time.
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  A lot of companies are, statements.
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  You know, they simply say we are against this.
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  You know, we support the Black Lives Matter Movement And that's it.
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  So making a statement in and of itself doesn't make changes in how people who work there are
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  people who consume things from that company or that might feel.
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  It's a nice step.
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  It's a good sentiment, but it doesn't really change things.
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  Another bandage is what what we would call is like, you know, people will hire in speakers.
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  And and I do this all the time.
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  So and I think I think it's still better than nothing, but it doesn't really be a change when
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  you just have somebody come in to do a single training session.
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  And the reason being is because change doesn't happen with a single occurrence of something
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  unless that occurrence is traumatic or dramatic.
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  And, you know, you yourself working in the case of trauma, we know that trauma with this, it
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  changes in human behavior, but but that's because it's traumatic.
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  And so in order for us to elicit a more positive change, we can't have a single
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  instance of something.
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  That change needs to be ongoing.
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  It needs to be a sense of accountability.
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  DNI or diversity and inclusion needs to show up on the agenda on a regular basis.
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  We need to constantly be asking ourselves And we don't just have that one time training
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  session because that comes in and leaves our consciousness.
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  It has to be a very profound training session and it has to be quite, you know, dramatic in
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  order for that to stick with people.
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  But even a dramatic event, you know, according to human nature, we'll gradually dissipate if
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  we're not always mindful.
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  And so having this mindful approach to diversity and inclusion where we're
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  consistently checking in with ourselves as an organization, but also as individuals.
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  And that's that's that's how we make that change.
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  And when I say, you know, you mentioned macro.
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  It isn't like, yes.
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  Yes.
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  It is macro, but it's also micro because the change comes down to the individual lead Right?
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  Because if we don't have a sense of empathy to truly understand what it's like, how is it that
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  that truly listed that change?
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  So it it it is macro, but it it is also micro when it comes to, you know, change starts
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  individually.
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  I I always say to people, you know, the biggest things began with a single thought.
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  Mhmm.
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  You know, you take take a look at the, you know, a photograph or a poster, just the vision
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  of New York city or or the greater Toronto area, you know, those buildings were
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  constructed with a single idea.
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  That's where it began.
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  And those ideas were supported.
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  You know, there was a sense of accountability.
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  There was a sense of mindfulness to keep follow up, and that's how those buildings began, but
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  they began with a single thought, but destruction of civilization also began with a
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  single thought.
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  Mhmm.
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  It's
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  a good That's a really great point.
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  So let's let's talk.
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  I'm I'm gonna use an example, and this is gonna be a funny example.
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  But, so my son, so I married someone that's, of Canadian background.
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  So at the time, you know, he was being born.
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  We, you know, we thought, okay.
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  We're gonna have to talk to I grew up in Trinidad, by the way.
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  I moved here, to count at 1 of 16 to to go to university.
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  So, of course, you know, growing up in the Caribbean.
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  It's a little bit you get a little bit of a different perspective growing up with
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  colonialism, but, you know, my prime minister, my doctors, my dentists, everybody was diverse.
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  To begin with.
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  So I had a different frame.
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  And then I came to Canada, and it was obviously quite different, quite dramatically at 16.
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  I'm like, woah.
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  This is a lot.
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  You know, I traveled, but had really never lived in a culture.
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  And so when I was having my son, my husband and I said, you know, we we need to talk to him
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  about different, not having thought about it before when we got married.
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  And, what happened for us was that he looks more like his dad, who he looks, white.
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  And, you know, of course, I'm brown compared to him.
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  So It was interesting because then we had to pivot on how we would chat with them
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  because we
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  had 2 different families of the Canadian family.
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  But then you also had this Trinidadian family, you know, who are predominantly brown.
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  So, you know, what was interesting is that what we realized is that this child, he did not see
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  color.
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  He did not see any difference between his dad and myself or his parents, until it started to
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  get to a point where he started to recognize color was when, you know, someone said to him
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  one time, I guess.
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  I I don't know how old he was.
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  Is that your mom?
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  He said, yes.
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  That's my mummy.
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  He says, of course, that's my mummy.
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  And someone said, oh, she's brown.
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  He goes, I guess she is.
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  Because he had not thought about it before.
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  So we had to really talk to him because, of course, visibly, he looks 1, but he's up 2
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  cultures.
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  Yeah.
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  And that was a very interesting conversation that we started to have, but he does not like,
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  still today, he doesn't see it as being different.
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  He sees himself as being Canadian, but he's off Trinidad in, descent as well.
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  But it's interesting because depending on where he is, he gets treated differently.
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  His Canadian family, he gets treated one way and in when he's with his trinidadian family.
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  It's a different thing.
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  So I I often say to him, how does it feel?
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  And he goes, mom, it it doesn't matter to me.
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  I'm, you know, I don't I don't see it because I I fully believe I'm I'm of 2 cultures.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  You know?
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  Well, he has is the privilege of passing as white.
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  And when we pass as white, we when we pass as white or we we are white, we carry a privilege,
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  that that allows us to be blind to certain difficulties and his experience where somebody
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  pointed out the fact that, or, you know, is she or mother?
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  You know, it's those instances when we are next two people of color or we that our privilege
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  becomes very visible.
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  I mean, I have male privilege as much as I don't want it, you know, and it become and I
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  don't notice it in the world when I walk around and, you know, live my life unless I'm I'm with
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  a woman and somebody treats her poorly.
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  And me better, you know, or speaks to me as if I'm the authority and she's not.
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  And that's, you know, that's when that veil is lifted and we have that comparison.
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  And that's what creates that empathy.
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  You know, when we recognize our privilege and what we have, it creates a sense sense of
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  empathy.
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  But when we don't have that constant comparison, we get stuck in our privilege and
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  we'd be combined by it.
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  And we don't notice the problems.
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  You know, it's it's interesting.
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  I I work with a lot of people.
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  A lot of young people and young adults and older adults who might be similar to your son,
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  you know, but they they might appear or pass as white.
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  You know, they might be Eastern European where the culture know, if you speak to the family,
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  they'll be they'll talk about white people.
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  Even though they themselves are European.
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  Right.
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  Right.
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  You know, they talk about white people.
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  And for them, it's about the culture.
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  Right?
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  And and these young people who've had to, you know, they because they pass as white, or at
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  least culturally, you know, physically, phenotypically, they are white.
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  They often have a struggle where they can't practice their Eastern European culture.
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  You know, and there's a there's a fight.
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  So and I find for them, it's sometimes even a greater challenge because internally they feel
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  like somebody else but externally they look like somebody else, whereas people of color
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  always put aside.
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  Right?
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  So people always assume that you're gonna be different.
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  In fact, that's that's another problem.
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  Is people assume, you know, and people might look at you Roxanne and assume things just
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  because you're brown.
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  You're like, what are you talking about?
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  Right?
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  Oh, no.
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  When you hear my name, you know, that's the interesting thing.
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  Raymond.
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  When I travel, you know, and I've I think when I did my I did a talk on on DI at, Harvard,
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  online, And I was giving the example to bring the you something came up and I said, you know,
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  my name is a bit of a, you know, I'm a bit of a hider because if you hear my name, you're not
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  gonna think anything about my background, until, you know, I was going through a
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  Heathrow, and I always joke around.
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  I, you know, I feel like I've lived in Canada longer.
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  I've lived in Trinidad.
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  So I feel like I'm of 2 cultures, but I'm different.
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  And I was going away with friends, and I said to my friends, 1 British, one's French
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  Canadian, and jokingly because these are friends.
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  We can openly discuss race because it's it's it's I've always been from a different place.
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  But we've already never discussed it at at length until recently.
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  I would think it even brought, friends around me to discuss things a little bit more.
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  And I said to my friends jokingly because we joke a lot.
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  We get out of the lounge and, I said, watch this.
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  Now these are my friends and we're we're making fun of it at that point, not thinking of it.
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  And that was just when they had brought in this 360 scanner.
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  Mhmm.
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  And So I said to them, okay.
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  I'll see you on the other side jokingly.
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  I didn't even really think it through.
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  I thought, and sure enough, we get into Heathrow.
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  We're about to go through customs.
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  They said, excuse me, Matt, we'd like you to step aside.
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  And they just they looked at me, and they were, like, stunned.
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  They
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  were like, Okay.
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  They don't know that they're together because they're not married.
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  They don't have the same last name.
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  And then there's me, and we're 3 friends traveling together.
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  And I said to bring that point home, It shows you some times to your point about hiding, how
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  your name my name hides me until you see me visibly.
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  And then at some point, I get different treatments in Heathrow, right, you know, in
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  Europe kind of thing.
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  And I was blown I was blown away and you know, but I think talking about a conscious bias,
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  that becomes important how, you know, whether it's my son with having the white skin or
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  myself having that name, it shouldn't take that, you know, to have these conversations.
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  We should have it be having these conversations more often.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, bias is lifted through awareness and insight and edge and knowledge, and that comes
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  with experiences and empathy.
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  The dilemmas that we tend not to have these discussions in the workplace, primarily because
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  we don't see that kind of discussion as professional.
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  You know, we have to really revisit what it is that we consider to be professional.
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  And but this this has to be one of those things that we consider professional, but we don't.
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  And so we never really have that discussion.
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  We never really have awareness or that education.
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  And even when we do bring people in, like, one of the banded shortcut solutions is that we
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  just consult externally, to bring somebody and they'll do the talk.
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  And people are like, great job, you know, round of applause and that person leaves, but there's
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  not often a consultation internally.
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  Of what the experience is like for, you know, marginalized groups of people within an
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  organization or in that workplace.
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  And so you know, you have you have an expert coming in.
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  And and and this is where I mean, I I enjoy giving talks, but I always say to people I
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  wanna talk with you, not at you.
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  And that's why I love having, like, yeah, certainly I can present, but I always say
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  interrupt my presentation.
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  Please ask.
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  But I think that's where people need to bring in those conversations in experiences when they
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  work at a place and feel safe and comfortable enough to do so.
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  But if the risk is that you're gonna come across as unprofessional, or complaining.
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  And that that is typically how people of color are kind of reacted to when they're talking
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  about their experiences.
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  You know, you're being too sensitive They're a nice person.
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  They they didn't mean it that way.
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  That's you're you're taking it the wrong way.
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  Whereas, you know, as a person of color, you're really highlighted to the the nuances and the
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  sensitivities, you you pick up racism when you know it.
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  Right.
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  When you look at when you go into organization, Unconscious bias is one of those things that
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  you have to dig deep into.
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  How is it that you know that you can shift a culture with unconscious bias.
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  You said you're you're privileged to be able to go into companies that get it.
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  How is it that companies?
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  Let's say someone's listening, a CEO's listening, or someone pretty senior, and
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  they're saying, yeah, I think we've done our job.
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  We've, you know, like, done certain trainings or whatever.
• 22:06
  How is it that they could get a pulse of whether they've really started to touch the
• 22:12
  nerve of really what unconscious bias is in their organization.
• 22:16
  If you've done your job, you have not done your job.
• 22:21
  The the issue of becoming equitable in any organization or society be is never like a
• 22:28
  check mark.
• 22:29
  It is not something that we just simply do and leave alone.
• 22:33
  It really is about integrating that discussion into our regular practice.
• 22:38
  You know, it must always be top of mind because ultimately, it it is there is a business case.
• 22:43
  There's a very strong business case, but, I mean, how can we how can we carry on knowing
• 22:48
  that we're causing damage to a large percentage of our society to a large percentage of our
• 22:52
  workforce.
• 22:53
  How is it that we expect people to be, you know, loyal to a to a company or to an
• 22:57
  organization or or give their all?
• 23:00
  When they're not really welcomed into a space.
• 23:03
  So I don't think when somebody says that they have done their job, they have not done their
• 23:11
  job.
• 23:13
  Right?
• 23:13
  There there's more to be done there.
• 23:16
  I missed it.
• 23:16
  What was that initial question?
• 23:18
  I'm sorry.
• 23:18
  I got sidelined by that.
• 23:20
  Just how would they know if they have have touched the pulse of what's unconscious bias
• 23:25
  actually is and what might be considered like because if they if they thought, you know,
• 23:31
  there's you look with BLM, there's been top of mind now, Globally on on this movement.
• 23:39
  So I would say it's kinda like, EAP services back in the nineties employee assistance
• 23:45
  programs with mental health.
• 23:46
  Every organization I worked in consulting there for you.
• 23:49
  Every organization had it that they were doing it, but really were they integrating what was
• 23:53
  necessary for mental health and well-being to keep people at at work most people, they some
• 23:59
  of them were most of they weren't, but they were putting that they were providing those
• 24:03
  services.
• 24:04
  So I'm thinking that this perspective now of black lives matters has forced organizations to
• 24:10
  say we are we have DI initiatives but really are they doing what's necessary?
• 24:17
  Yeah.
• 24:18
  That's a that's a really good question.
• 24:19
  How do you know you've hit the pulse?
• 24:22
  When you feel the tension, When you feel the heat, that's when you know you're you hit the
• 24:27
  pulse.
• 24:27
  A lot of people, when they first start to really get it, there's a great sense of guilt.
• 24:30
  People talk about white guilt and white fragility, typically people pull away.
• 24:34
  Like, most things that are tied to anxiety, we tend to avoid the things that make us
• 24:38
  uncomfortable, but, really, the more we face our fears, the better we become at overcoming
• 24:44
  those difficulties.
• 24:45
  And so we we when we start to feel some anxiety, we know we've hit the target.
• 24:50
  And I say that to people, not just in organizations, but also my clients.
• 24:54
  If you're feeling nervous, you know, you're on the right track.
• 24:57
  And typically, that's not how most leaders feel comfortable.
• 25:00
  Right?
• 25:00
  They feel like they're on the right track when they feel confident.
• 25:04
  And that's that's a that's a switch and how we typically look at success.
• 25:10
  That that is such a good point.
• 25:13
  Right?
• 25:13
  Because most of us don't like to feel uncomfortable and, you know, so I I grew I like
• 25:22
  I said, I live in a very small town.
• 25:23
  It's very I probably, still quite very much, so it's a very anglicized, environment small
• 25:30
  little town in in Niagara Falls.
• 25:32
  And when I moved here oh, goodness.
• 25:34
  I'm gonna dig myself 30 something years ago.
• 25:37
  I was it.
• 25:38
  Like, you know, other than maybe, my husband at the time had had one person that he went to
• 25:44
  high school with that I think was from somewhere else.
• 25:48
  And still today, it's still very it's not diversified at all.
• 25:52
  And I I recognize that, you know, sometimes what and I'm gonna use an example of myself.
• 25:57
  I grew up in Trinidad where there was every, you know, color, creed, race, and then, you
• 26:03
  know, you don't think about it until you get to a bigger, environment where you realize, woah,
• 26:10
  I'm I know I'm different, but I am different.
• 26:15
  I truly am
• 26:16
  different, especially when nobody knows the one bucket to book me in, you
• 26:16
  know, where are you from?
• 26:20
  You know, I'm like, well, I'm from the Caribbean.
• 26:22
  Okay.
• 26:22
  Well, what does that mean?
• 26:24
  And are you Indian?
• 26:25
  Are you, you know, are you black?
• 26:26
  Are you, you know, are you Egyptian?
• 26:28
  Are you people didn't know.
• 26:29
  There wasn't a bucket to put in.
• 26:31
  And, you know, now, like and then you come and you wanna blend because I'm a teenager.
• 26:36
  Right?
• 26:37
  What do you wanna do?
• 26:38
  You wanna blend in to your point.
• 26:39
  You've used the concept of assimilation.
• 26:41
  Absolutely.
• 26:42
  I don't wanna stick out.
• 26:44
  I I mean, absolutely not.
• 26:44
  I'm in grade 13, and
• 26:44
  I just wanna, go to school and not ruffle any feathers, but you
• 26:51
  what I liked about what you said is
• 26:51
  that at work now, I think you as an adult, I want my voice to be very unique.
• 27:02
  And I am a compilation of all the things that I've been exposed to.
• 27:06
  My my culture, my, you know, my background, my family, my values, my world view, gives me in
• 27:15
  frame, but if I have to stifle that potentially, then how is that gonna impact the
• 27:21
  bottom line for the company?
• 27:23
  Yeah.
• 27:23
  You know, I might even challenge that Roxanne.
• 27:26
  I I don't think organizations really promote a unique or diverse perspective.
• 27:31
  Like, you know, they don't want a diverse voice they want a voice that's still, like, unique
• 27:34
  but still fits within a certain perspective.
• 27:37
  You know, like, so, people of color will often say, you know, I wanna present the unique part,
• 27:42
  but it still has to fit through this white or, you know, Eurocentric kind of point of view.
• 27:47
  When it doesn't, like, you can't go too outside that box.
• 27:50
  You know, you can't truly say where you get that information from.
• 27:53
  You're still hiding pieces of yourself.
• 27:55
  And the reason for that is the same reason why my son didn't wanna be Muslim.
• 27:59
  When he was 3.
• 28:01
  You know, it's because the standard is white.
• 28:05
  You know, I mean, even you and I will start to present a certain point of view and perspective
• 28:13
  that has to still fit.
• 28:14
  Like, I can't show up you know, and and I I guess the Caribbean might be different because
• 28:20
  the colonialism will have, you know, will have a certain they it's a fairly western dress and
• 28:25
  culture.
• 28:25
  Right?
• 28:26
  But but, like, I don't think I would dare show up to work.
• 28:31
  Wearing Middle Eastern dress that I that I would that I like and feel comfortable in.
• 28:35
  It's not that I don't like it.
• 28:36
  It's not that I don't feel comfortable in it.
• 28:38
  I just would never do that.
• 28:40
  Because it would immediately mitigate my professionalism.
• 28:42
  People like, who is this guy?
• 28:44
  Yeah.
• 28:44
  Yeah.
• 28:44
  I see wearing a gown.
• 28:46
  Do you know?
• 28:46
  Like,
• 28:47
  this is
• 28:47
  not a gown.
• 28:48
  This is, like, you know, what is he a priest?
• 28:51
  You know, like, what's going on?
• 28:52
  You know, all these perceptions and we we filter our perceptions of people through that
• 28:56
  single lens.
• 28:57
  And so we So, yes, there's certain things I won't change, and I can't change.
• 29:02
  But even with all my privilege, with all this work I do,
• 29:06
  I
• 29:06
  don't know how comfortable I'd feel because I know people would automatically other me.
• 29:12
  So I can't really truly bring my full cell.
• 29:17
  So let's talk about that from a mental health perspective.
• 29:19
  You talked a little bit about that.
• 29:20
  I I'm I'm obviously, you know, with my background, we're both you.
• 29:24
  I'm a psychotherapist.
• 29:25
  You're a psychologist.
• 29:27
  You know, mental health and well-being is so very key to productivity and innovation.
• 29:31
  Right?
• 29:32
  If I feel my optimal self, I bring the best forward.
• 29:36
  I bring my perspective, those types of things.
• 29:39
  How is diversity and inclusion?
• 29:41
  How does it impact mental well-being or mental health in the workplace?
• 29:45
  Well, I mean, considerably if you were to think of imagine if there was always a piece of
• 29:49
  yourself you've had to hide.
• 29:51
  Imagine if you were always doubting who you were.
• 29:54
  Imagine if that was always a piece of who you are, whether you were conscious of it or not,
• 29:58
  but you were always made to feel like you were the other.
• 30:00
  The impact of that on mental health is gonna found.
• 30:03
  Right?
• 30:03
  Anxiety, depression, trauma, all those things show up.
• 30:05
  And the research actually does support it that people of color tend to internalize racism.
• 30:11
  And that has an impact on performance, academic, and work has an impact on pro social
• 30:16
  behaviors, which is why sometimes people say Well, you know, those people always act that
• 30:20
  way.
• 30:20
  Well, the impact is you're constantly traumatized.
• 30:22
  It is gonna have an impact on social social behaviors, has an impact on substance abuse,
• 30:28
  The amazing thing is when we start to become more inclusive, there's some research down in
• 30:32
  our workplaces productivity, performance, you know, loyalty, all of that goes up.
• 30:40
  There's been research done on countries.
• 30:42
  Now I wouldn't say there's any country that perfectly.
• 30:45
  But the countries that do do it better have greater economic output because they're working
• 30:49
  on becoming more inclusive.
• 30:51
  Productivity on more inclusive teams was ten times that of non inclusive teams.
• 30:58
  You know, so massive outcome the the payoff is huge.
• 31:03
  And and all we're doing is changing our sense of what we consider professional, making sure
• 31:08
  that we're equitable, So the payoff is massive, but it it goes to show what do people gain by
• 31:15
  not wanting to address And and some people would say people or leaders gain power.
• 31:20
  You know, there's always a hierarchy.
• 31:22
  You know, this kind of person is better than that kind of person.
• 31:25
  But I would say I go I go deeper than that.
• 31:28
  This is not just about power.
• 31:30
  This is truly about anxiety.
• 31:33
  Because the moment we step into that anxiety, it removes us from a sense of authority and
• 31:37
  leadership has worked so hard to become confident and proficient that admitting error
• 31:44
  is really threatening.
• 31:46
  What leaders don't realize is when we admit vulnerability and error, we're actually much
• 31:51
  more relatable.
• 31:52
  Absolutely.
• 31:53
  Absolutely.
• 31:53
  You know, that's the leader you wanna follow.
• 31:56
  If you think about the world today, what leaders do we appreciate the most?
• 32:01
  World leaders, political leaders, they're always the ones that are more related the ones
• 32:05
  that seem more down to earth that are generally successful, but have flaw to them.
• 32:12
  And we all want authenticity, which is what I talk a lot about.
• 32:16
  And, you know, gone are the days where you have the kind of the autocratic kind of leadership,
• 32:22
  you know, dogmatic kind of perspectives and in especially in this day and age with the with
• 32:28
  the stresses of of the pandemic.
• 32:31
  We want relatable even more so.
• 32:34
  Right?
• 32:35
  You know, and and without that, it's like when, you know, if you were to say to me, Roxanne,
• 32:39
  hey, you know, be inauthentic, right, which is what I'm I'm gonna have to shut off.
• 32:45
  I don't know what part of myself I'm gonna shut off, but that's gonna bleed out some other way.
• 32:50
  Yes.
• 32:50
  With with me going to work.
• 32:52
  And, you know, with whatever capacity, I'm not gonna bring my 100% best capacity to work.
• 32:58
  And of course, that's gonna, you know, based on whatever I'm doing in the organization, that's
• 33:03
  gonna impact the bottom line, whether I'm a senior leader,
• 33:06
  Yes.
• 33:06
  I'm on a team, whether I'm frontward facing with the your customer, all those things.
• 33:12
  So the quantifiable kind of bottom line, I think, would be probably, astronomical,
• 33:17
  especially when we see, you know, the diversity numbers that we know here, across Canada or
• 33:23
  even in into the US it's in interesting.
• 33:27
  You know, that companies, I would think that every company should be looking more at a more
• 33:33
  inclusive kind of perspective versus the band aid like you've talked about.
• 33:38
  Yeah.
• 33:38
  Absolutely.
• 33:39
  Yeah.
• 33:39
  And I I would say coaching is really important in all of this, right, because you can't get to
• 33:43
  the macro level unless you work at the micro level.
• 33:45
  Right?
• 33:46
  You gotta you gotta start here in your head.
• 33:48
  And if there's something getting in your way and you don't feel comfortable you know, as a
• 33:52
  leader, bring it out to your group or to your organization, get some coaching around, you
• 33:56
  know, your bias.
• 33:58
  You know, somebody you can feel comfortable with to be able to have these really open and
• 34:01
  frank discussions where you're not feeling judged.
• 34:03
  And then you can shift that.
• 34:05
  Once you shift that, the movement in your organization you know, is gonna be profound
• 34:09
  because you as the leader have been able to make that shift.
• 34:13
  You've been able to move that And once you see it in that way, you know, it makes all the
• 34:18
  difference.
• 34:19
  Many, many people of color have all got their white friends who they'll say, they get They
• 34:25
  get it.
• 34:25
  And the reason they get is because they've been friends.
• 34:27
  They've been with you.
• 34:28
  They they didn't get it at the beginning.
• 34:31
  Right.
• 34:32
  It didn't get it at the beginning, but that that experience of understanding what your life
• 34:36
  was like is it was almost like the coaching, right, and they're able to get it.
• 34:41
  And the close to the phone You
• 34:42
  can have nonthreatening conversations with your friends.
• 34:46
  Like, I remember, because, of course, I, you know, like you said, you you meet your friends.
• 34:50
  They love you for who you are and they never saw a difference.
• 34:54
  So I brought, you know, obviously, the Caribbean culture and clip so and roti and
• 34:58
  everything.
• 34:58
  Right?
• 34:59
  Like, everything that came with me, which people embraced and they loved.
• 35:02
  And then just recently with the BLM, I I had 4 girlfriends over and of course this topic comes
• 35:09
  up.
• 35:09
  Right?
• 35:09
  We never talked about it really microscopically, previously.
• 35:12
  And one of my friends said her head hurt Can we change a subject?
• 35:16
  The other person said, and these are people I love dearly.
• 35:20
  And the other person said, well, I've had socioeconomic, inability that you didn't have
• 35:27
  because I grew up privileged.
• 35:29
  And someone said, well, you're 1% of the population in reference to education and
• 35:34
  economic viability.
• 35:36
  And I was I would remind you, we we talked it through, but I was flawed because nobody had I
• 35:42
  had said to them at the end, I said, has every because I've never had this ring, I said, has
• 35:48
  any one of you asked me what it's been like?
• 35:51
  To live in Canada being non white.
• 35:54
  And they've all looked at me and said, well, I've never thought of that.
• 35:59
  Well, this is the problem with this is the problem with not seeing color.
• 36:03
  Right?
• 36:03
  There's a lot of people who say, I'm color blind.
• 36:06
  I I don't see it.
• 36:07
  You know, I love you for who you are.
• 36:09
  You know, I accept people in my workplace for who they are.
• 36:13
  You know, there is a difference.
• 36:16
  You can't solve a Rubik's cube if you're gonna be color blind.
• 36:19
  What we've what we've got is a giant Rubik's cube in front of us.
• 36:23
  The truth is that there are differences and experiences based on our phenotype based on our
• 36:28
  names based on our cultures and our religions.
• 36:31
  There is a huge difference But people who are marginalized tend to be quiet above that
• 36:38
  because they can never really truly bring it forward because even with friends, as you said,
• 36:41
  you know, what?
• 36:42
  My head hurts?
• 36:42
  Can we can please stop this lake?
• 36:44
  You got a headache.
• 36:45
  Imagine the migraine that I've been living with, you know, for the entirety of my life.
• 36:52
  That's that's the dilemma, I would say.
• 36:55
  You know?
• 36:56
  No.
• 36:56
  I gotta tell you another funny story before I know you we you and I probably could chat above
• 37:00
  this for a fair amount of time.
• 37:01
  I remember when I took my husband to Trinidad.
• 37:04
  This is a this is a and I was quite young.
• 37:06
  I was twenty, twenty one.
• 37:09
  And I took him and I I tried to explain as much as I could, right, like I mean, you know,
• 37:14
  they're gonna experience this.
• 37:15
  This is a different list of whatever.
• 37:16
  And then he lands And he's the, you know, he's blonde, blue eyed, very, very, you know, light.
• 37:24
  And he's he was you know, downtown in San Fernando and, little town that I grew up and
• 37:31
  then he goes, I am the all I I finally might, he said, might get a small understanding of
• 37:40
  what it might have been like for you.
• 37:43
  Coming to live where we live now.
• 37:46
  Yes.
• 37:47
  And never experienced it before.
• 37:49
  Except that because of colonialism, when white people might like they stand up, but they tend
• 37:54
  to be treated better.
• 37:56
  Absolutely.
• 37:56
  Absolutely.
• 37:56
  You know, in communities.
• 37:58
  Oh, the white guys here.
• 37:59
  Right.
• 38:00
  Right.
• 38:00
  Right.
• 38:01
  But Wow.
• 38:02
  Yeah.
• 38:02
  Absolutely.
• 38:03
  Of course.
• 38:03
  There was still privilege within that, but he had with the point that I he had never
• 38:07
  understood previous to that was what it was felt like for me when I walked in somewhere and
• 38:13
  every 3 I'm talking, well, 35 years ago, everybody would look around because they had
• 38:18
  never because I was different.
• 38:20
  And he goes, no.
• 38:21
  It's just in your head.
• 38:22
  I'm like, no.
• 38:23
  It's not a man.
• 38:24
  It's it's it's real.
• 38:25
  And he the first time he could find he because he was experiencing it maybe with other,
• 38:31
  caveats attached to it, but for the first time, he was like, wow, I I I finally kinda get what
• 38:35
  it's like when you are feeling that, you're you're sticking out because you are so
• 38:41
  different.
• 38:42
  Yes.
• 38:42
  Yes.
• 38:43
  You know, which was, which was kind of nice to hear.
• 38:46
  But like you said, you know, so many other things attached to Now, Raymond, this has been
• 38:51
  fascinating, and I'm sure you're you're consulting and speaking and coaching.
• 38:57
  I'm interested where if if a senior leader or CEOs are looking to make, start to make a
• 39:07
  decision about a more cohesive kind of strategy for their companies what where where should
• 39:14
  they start?
• 39:16
  I think it begins with a conversation with a difficult conversation.
• 39:21
  You know, I think, you know, I'll make a little plug here.
• 39:25
  You know, I have a podcast with a colleague of mine, Lisa Schmidt.
• 39:28
  And we have these difficult conversations on a regular basis on our podcast.
• 39:31
  It's called people.
• 39:33
  Season 2 is coming out, and it's gonna be focusing on leadership and organization.
• 39:37
  So that might be a good starting So you we've got to have these difficult conversations.
• 39:42
  And if you don't feel comfortable with that, you can't really make true like, evocative
• 39:48
  insight oriented change.
• 39:49
  Freud said insight is the cure.
• 39:52
  And it's true because once we understand the changes become natural.
• 39:56
  Right?
• 39:57
  And we often try to move to the change without getting the the insight and then then the
• 40:01
  change is awkward and, you know, kind of like modular.
• 40:06
  So I'd say start with a conversation and start with people that you know that might be
• 40:11
  different and admit to what you don't know.
• 40:14
  And they may or may not want to have a conversation with you, but find somebody who
• 40:17
  will.
• 40:17
  And I would say start with that individual.
• 40:19
  Start micro with you before you will macro to your organization.
• 40:24
  And then pull people on board, and I would say consult both externally and internal You know,
• 40:30
  don't just go outside to look for the expert.
• 40:33
  There's a ton of experts out there that'll do this work.
• 40:35
  You'll find them, but also ask internally What are we missing and be ready to hear some tough
• 40:41
  answers?
• 40:42
  Well, that's amazing.
• 40:43
  I know Lisa very well.
• 40:44
  We're both in a a writing group together.
• 40:47
  We've been spending months together now so that, I didn't make the connection, but, she's
• 40:52
  she's awesome.
• 40:53
  I will ensure that the podcast link, for your podcast will be in the shown shown us because I
• 40:59
  think people should listen and get more on this information.
• 41:02
  So if anybody's wanting to reach out to you directly, maybe they're wanting coaching or
• 41:06
  they're even looking for, strategy or even you to train, their employees.
• 41:12
  Where where could they get a hold of you?
• 41:15
  Check out my website, lead with diversity.com.
• 41:19
  I'm over there.
• 41:20
  And, yeah, you can find all my stuff over there.
• 41:23
  Lead with diversity.
• 41:24
  Awesome.
• 41:25
  Well, thanks again, Raymond.
• 41:26
  So what am I taking away?
• 41:27
  You know, I'm taking away that if we're inauthentic, because we're different, we're not
• 41:35
  gonna bring the full, our full selves to work.
• 41:40
  And without our full without that full version of ourselves, we are really actually crippling
• 41:47
  capacity to be innovative, creative, and be a real part, of the organization.
• 41:53
  So to think that through as senior leaders, how is it that you're allowing your employees to be
• 41:59
  authentic in every realm, regardless of what diversity they bring to work.
• 42:05
  So thanks a lot again, Raymond.
• 42:07
  And for anyone wanting more information off on authentic leadership.
• 42:12
  You can reach me at Roxanne.
• 42:15
  Thanks so much.
• 42:17
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 42:22
  healthy change.
• 42:24
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne.
• 42:29
  Visit rocksandurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 42:34
  We'll see you next time, an authentic living with Roxanne.