Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy (1/4)

Transcript

Talks to Robert Valentine about his choice of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  I'm so drunk. Welcome back to Hampton will
• 0:41
  blunt penknife the Doctor Who commentary podcast.
• 0:45
  I'm absolutely thrilled today to be introducing, a new member of
• 0:49
  the hand family, mr. Rob Valentine's Day.
• 0:52
  Hello, Rob. Hello Rob.
• 0:54
  Oh well, down straight away. How you doing today?
• 1:00
  I didn't very well. Thank you.
• 1:01
  Thank you very much for the invitation to have me on.
• 1:06
  Yeah, we're gonna do two of these aren't wait.
• 1:10
  Joe, thank you very well. First of all, thank you very
• 1:12
  much for what you don't know, you don't know this, but for the
• 1:14
  deep, and meaningful parasocial relationship, you provided me
• 1:17
  with during the pandemic, the ongoing thing with that hasn't
• 1:22
  stopped yet, but, and also, thanks for the two fantastic
• 1:25
  episodes. We're going to be talking about,
• 1:27
  that's right. Yeah, don't tell me you've
• 1:29
  listened to all of this. These hands.
• 1:31
  Don't step aside, please. I thought you had a bit of a
• 1:34
  psychotic look in your eye. Well, and I've have I listen to
• 1:38
  all of them to not hate. Say I tend to I tend to I don't
• 1:41
  know why I do it. I skip the new who and I don't
• 1:45
  know why. How interesting I just yeah,
• 1:47
  it's like the classic ones. The ones that had a longer throw
• 1:51
  me. The classic ones that maybe
• 1:53
  that's no it's not even that it's just something.
• 1:55
  I don't know. I don't know why it's just yeah
• 1:57
  I'm going to ask a really unsettling.
• 2:00
  Do go for it. Go for it.
• 2:01
  This is actually putting you on the spot because there's a quiz
• 2:03
  as to whether you actually have listened to you when you have
• 2:06
  any favorite contributors. But you listened to or is it
• 2:09
  just as I can? Thanks, I Hearts.
• 2:14
  Very sweet. Amazing.
• 2:16
  He's lovely. Yes.
• 2:17
  His tales of you. All right, well, okay, what
• 2:21
  story are we talking about today?
• 2:23
  Today a couple I feel so fortunate.
• 2:26
  It wasn't the only one left over the McCoy era, Ghostlight still
• 2:30
  to be done and so fine. Fine.
• 2:32
  Well, yeah, this is, this is the greatest show in the Galaxy old
• 2:38
  boys. Yes.
• 2:39
  Yes. This is the story that proves
• 2:42
  that the faggot Of classic Who ashes?
• 2:44
  I don't even deserve to be called the fag end of classic
• 2:46
  who now there was no, we're absolutely bashing out some
• 2:49
  quality stuff. Yeah.
• 2:50
  It's it fair to call it, the death row of classic Who though,
• 2:55
  because that's kind of where they're sitting, isn't it?
• 2:57
  They know that shop will come, but they're still, you know, and
• 3:02
  it's weird, isn't it? It's like this last-minute
• 3:04
  Resurgence of creativity and sort of imagination here in the
• 3:08
  show. Yeah.
• 3:09
  And it's that despite the fact that no one was watching or
• 3:11
  because no one was watching. Watching.
• 3:13
  But yeah, it's this it's this huge surge of youthful
• 3:16
  creativity. You know, it's so good.
• 3:19
  It's so good. This scored the best of the
• 3:21
  season did. Now, I think this aired over
• 3:23
  Christmas and I think one of the episodes reached up to 6
• 3:26
  million, so that if I'm a member, I don't really remember
• 3:31
  eyes this stuff, but I think episode 1 hit six million.
• 3:33
  Yes, yeah, I think I can see why as well.
• 3:37
  Okay, well, I would ask you a question before we go into the
• 3:39
  first episode. Yep, sure.
• 3:41
  That is I am aware of you not only from on Twitter but
• 3:46
  obviously from your big finish. Now, put that you've been doing
• 3:50
  for some years now and you since summer 2019, I think so it
• 3:57
  doesn't feel very go. But, you know, there's been a
• 3:59
  yeah, two years of plague in between.
• 4:02
  So yes, it's coming up to three years but it feels like 18
• 4:06
  months. Somehow.
• 4:07
  Yeah. Well, I met during a Biblical
• 4:09
  plague. It's been nice to kind of escape
• 4:12
  to To, you know, adventures in time and space during its oh
• 4:16
  yeah, I'm grateful for the diversion which it's provided
• 4:20
  and it's been like quite diverse, hasn't it.
• 4:23
  You've covered quite a few ranges.
• 4:26
  A lot of doctors. Yeah, I they've I've put about
• 4:32
  basically yesterday. Yeah, they've invited me to some
• 4:36
  me to do some really varied stuff, which has been lovely,
• 4:39
  you know, from kind of, you know, dark and gritty stuff.
• 4:42
  To kind of kind of wacky. Fun things so gun and frock as
• 4:49
  they say. Yeah, why would I could ask you
• 4:52
  about the end of the main range? Because that's called that's
• 4:55
  like momentous. Isn't it bringing that to a
• 4:58
  close? What an honor to be asked to do
• 4:59
  that? It was a huge on.
• 5:00
  I don't know why they asked me because there are loads of
• 5:05
  people, they could have done but I identified because Isis I
• 5:08
  suspect, I was free, but yeah. It was it was, it was it was it
• 5:13
  was huge fun to do. Yeah.
• 5:17
  It was just kind of like, dude, can you do something like the
• 5:20
  Sirens of time? It's like, oh yeah.
• 5:22
  I can do some other side of the time and so I did something like
• 5:25
  the science of time but it was it was really was really fun.
• 5:27
  It's really fun and it was also a great way to kind of get for
• 5:31
  doctors, you know, under my belt in one Fell Swoop, which is
• 5:35
  lovely, including seven. Yeah, a little secret.
• 5:39
  Go ahead. I haven't heard that one yet and
• 5:44
  reason for that is the only Main Range store.
• 5:47
  I haven't heard. And it's not because I'm this
• 5:49
  person that doesn't want to arrange to end, but I'm doing
• 5:52
  like a big finished Journey with my partner on YouTube.
• 5:56
  I want that one when we hit that story, I'm going to listen to it
• 6:00
  live for the first time. So it's going to be some time
• 6:02
  before I hear it but they'll always be one more main range
• 6:05
  for me to listen to. Oh that's last lovely.
• 6:07
  Yeah, well hold on. Are you get back to it?
• 6:13
  All right. Well, shall we head towards
• 6:16
  second acts then? Well, let's, let's go.
• 6:18
  It has this great. Shiny Galaxy.
• 6:20
  I'll tell you what, why don't you count as in?
• 6:23
  Okay, all from, from what also comes in from just I let's do
• 6:27
  five, okay, 54 321 off, we go. Let's make sure we got subtitles
• 6:35
  on. Okay, so the Sylvester McCoy
• 6:39
  era, I'm going to ask you. Why.
• 6:41
  Yes, what's your opinion? It's where I came in.
• 6:45
  I have memories of vague memories of Peter Davison and
• 6:49
  memories of Colin Baker, but I was 7 years old for time and the
• 6:52
  Rani and yeah, the Seventh Doctor was totally pitched at me
• 6:59
  and then it just it was. Yeah.
• 7:01
  So I was in from that. It's my favorite little is it?
• 7:05
  I don't think it's necessarily the best, but it's up there with
• 7:08
  the best something. Maybe it is the best I can.
• 7:10
  Can't tell because it's mine and I'm just too close to it.
• 7:14
  I adore it cringy. B, and all as it is this the
• 7:19
  best of the Season key thing. No, I think like I said, there's
• 7:26
  no right answer to this remembrance of the Daleks might
• 7:30
  be objectively, the best. This is really, really up their
• 7:35
  happiness Patrol. I hate to say I admire more it
• 7:38
  more than I like. Because for me, it's just a
• 7:41
  little bit to brechtian and silver Nemesis soberness.
• 7:45
  I kind of went to. I went to school in Windsor and
• 7:47
  I kind of I grew up around that area and I know it very well.
• 7:49
  So silver them assist. It's the sloppiest thing.
• 7:52
  They've It's the shortest one in the series by love silver
• 7:56
  Nemesis because I've always played the game of this isn't
• 7:59
  filmed in Windsor but we're can't are there click kind of
• 8:03
  figure out where these places are meant to be and sorry.
• 8:06
  Yeah I'll fit in that window which is just down the road for
• 8:09
  me. Yeah, yeah.
• 8:10
  So it's a weird one. But now is this the best in the
• 8:12
  series it's this is the best kind of stand-alone totally
• 8:16
  original continuity. Free story in the series and
• 8:19
  Remembrance I think is the best continuity, heavy story, wasn't
• 8:23
  it? In the to Stephen Wyatt script
• 8:25
  Paradise, towers and greatest in the Galaxy, they're both
• 8:28
  continuity free, aren't they? And that's so refreshing.
• 8:31
  They are they are and they're in Paradise.
• 8:34
  Towers is one. That was the funny that I think
• 8:36
  Paradise Towers where I kind of thought yet, at 7:00 the
• 8:40
  cleaners, these are amazing, I love this.
• 8:42
  This is brilliant. What?
• 8:44
  No, no, the bad know, he's hold on, uh, Nords, great too.
• 8:47
  But the similarity, we, as we watch this, we can kind of
• 8:50
  chart, the similarities between Paradise towers and those
• 8:52
  because there are loads Of structural similarities between
• 8:57
  the two and together. The two, the site that one,
• 9:00
  massive difference, is that so entirely Studio about, and I
• 9:03
  think it uses it really well. And this is all done on location
• 9:07
  and it uses that brilliantly. Yes, yes.
• 9:11
  And one could argue as well, that all the flaws that you
• 9:13
  could, you could quite reasonably lay at the door of
• 9:17
  paradise. Towers, you know, tone casting
• 9:21
  production, Etc, in it. Right?
• 9:23
  This One. They slam dunk it.
• 9:25
  Yeah, yeah. I think you've got a direct out
• 9:27
  of writer here, that and absolute Saint Pat's got.
• 9:30
  They knows it's what they have. The tone me in this time around.
• 9:33
  Exactly. All this thing, we're missing
• 9:34
  the scene. This scene has its parallel in
• 9:37
  Paradise. Towers is the Mel wanting to go
• 9:40
  and see the pool and watching the commercial.
• 9:42
  And of course, the Doctor Who's practicing juggling at the start
• 9:46
  of the scene, because he knows where they're going to go, he
• 9:49
  knows who they're facing. And yeah, so he and so It's
• 9:54
  totally productive on his part that's implied and the fact that
• 9:57
  the the junk mail can get into the Tardis and it couldn't get
• 10:01
  into the Tardis unless he wanted it to.
• 10:04
  And right now the great the great thing here, what he's
• 10:07
  doing here, the reverse psychology that is pulling on
• 10:12
  Ace. This is exactly like the
• 10:14
  rulebook seen in Paradise Towers watch him.
• 10:18
  You know, his glances away from her to her when she's not
• 10:21
  looking at him. Yeah, he is ugly manipulating
• 10:23
  her here. So, a lot of a lot of kind of
• 10:25
  Seventh Doctor as the manipulative figure, it's all
• 10:29
  it's all here in this story. What is that all about him?
• 10:33
  Getting Ace to confront her fears.
• 10:35
  Now, I know this was heading somewhere, wasn't it?
• 10:37
  It's in season 27 inverted Commerce.
• 10:41
  This was supposed to be for training or up to head, to
• 10:44
  Gallifrey to be a Time Lady. Romana 3 or something?
• 10:48
  Yeah, I don't know how much of so I don't recall exactly how
• 10:53
  much of That is actual recorded intention, and how much of that
• 10:57
  is kind of 1990s fan Theory, that's now become kind of
• 11:01
  received wisdom. I don't know.
• 11:03
  I think I had you can't mail on the, when they did the big
• 11:07
  finish loss Stories, the missing season 27 crime of the century
• 11:10
  and all that bunch, he stated. Then, in the special feet, I
• 11:14
  remember hearing him say that. That was kind of the duration
• 11:16
  they were going in, but it's so different from anything we've
• 11:21
  had before. Isn't it?
• 11:22
  Is him? Kind of manipulating her Fortune
• 11:28
  had to sort of mature. It's really interesting.
• 11:31
  Yeah I wonder in this one if that's kind of like a sign of a
• 11:34
  really just a subtle side element to this that they then
• 11:38
  noticed and then actually consciously made overt in season
• 11:42
  26 or if that's or if him kind of training her up is
• 11:47
  legitimately starting here. It's so subtle in this one that
• 11:51
  it makes you think. Maybe it was just To happy
• 11:54
  accident that they kind of latched onto.
• 11:57
  I don't know. Can I just say that the
• 11:59
  juxtaposition of a clown? And a hearse is genius.
• 12:03
  Oh, it's incredible. The theory.
• 12:05
  It's and also, this is the not quite yet.
• 12:09
  But once he's, in this pier outfit, this is the Ashes to
• 12:11
  Ashes music video. It's got sick, but the locations
• 12:16
  in this. Sorry, what's it called?
• 12:19
  It's all. Yeah, warm, well, Quarry in
• 12:22
  Dorset is just just the location filming and of all the queries
• 12:26
  in all of Doctor Who I think this is one of the greatest and
• 12:32
  I think Alan wet Allen, wearing Allen wearing and quarry's
• 12:37
  between this and survival. He does such a terrific job.
• 12:40
  That's the two times where I really feel like a quarry feels
• 12:43
  like an alien planet and I know they've got a lot of paint box
• 12:46
  so they can do some things with the sky and is nice a subtle but
• 12:49
  it's very atmospheric, it's a landscape in the way he frames
• 12:53
  the Terrain. It just looks it.
• 12:56
  Looks like an alien planet in a way that, you know, that's a
• 12:59
  name. Yeah, it feels absolutely vile.
• 13:02
  He comes Peggy Moun. She's brilliant.
• 13:04
  Yes. Yeah, pause.
• 13:05
  So, what do you think about these quirky characters?
• 13:09
  Then I love it. It's straight out of 2000 ad
• 13:13
  that it's completely from that she is in many ways.
• 13:16
  I think she's a step up. She's she is from the same old
• 13:20
  people's home as Tabby and tilde, you know, it's a So it's
• 13:24
  another it's another, Stephen Wyatt thing of, then it will
• 13:30
  then get no. I did I did here originally that
• 13:32
  this character was going to be male rather than female so, but
• 13:37
  I think became Peggy Mount later in the day so maybe she was
• 13:41
  available and yeah, but she is terrific.
• 13:44
  And also she's she's essentially she's a straight really isn't
• 13:49
  she? She's, you know, she's not into
• 13:50
  the circus, she's not into, you know, it's It's the greatest
• 13:54
  show in the Galaxy. It's about Doctor Who on one
• 13:56
  level. So she's a, she's a nut.
• 13:58
  She's a non-fan who doesn't get this crappy thing.
• 14:02
  She's a, you know, as a result, she's very serious and a bit
• 14:06
  dull. Yeah, yeah.
• 14:08
  She's, but she's not in any danger.
• 14:10
  She's, she's the only character in this series unthreatened by
• 14:15
  any of the goings-on related to the circus.
• 14:17
  Isn't that right? She, yeah, and yeah, I'll pass
• 14:20
  her stall and she's just like I said, no end to you.
• 14:23
  You weirdos? She's not scared of anything.
• 14:25
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 14:26
  She knows, she's fantastic. I robbed.
• 14:28
  I don't know what that stuff. She's serving is but it looks
• 14:31
  absolutely revolting. That isn't that isn't that great
• 14:34
  though? I mean, I love food stuff that
• 14:36
  really there isn't that much kind of wacky alien food in
• 14:40
  Doctor Who, but mean the title of this aggression, they get
• 14:42
  it's obviously is based on it's a spin on The Greatest Show on
• 14:46
  Earth, but it's, but it's also, it is quite Douglas Adams and
• 14:50
  the whole, you know, hitch, trailer hitch, Guide to the
• 14:52
  Galaxy the All the common name of the it's some Dent Rossi,
• 14:56
  snack that in the TV version that for Dietz could blue hot
• 14:59
  dog with green goop on it wacky. A wacky space food is quite you
• 15:05
  know it's quite a Douglas Adams e 2000 ad type thing.
• 15:09
  But doctor who hasn't touched up until now so I love all that
• 15:11
  actually my brain to think of other examples.
• 15:13
  I there's the beginning of turn left.
• 15:15
  Isn't there where they're having those like firm foamy drinks
• 15:19
  down the the market the Chinatown?
• 15:21
  Well yeah but that's all. That's all.
• 15:23
  Post this and Russell T Davies. You know he was watching, you
• 15:27
  know, this is this is all rub this all rubbed off on him
• 15:30
  hugely. But before before this there
• 15:32
  isn't much of this kind of if you look at the doctors actually
• 15:35
  doing traveling, don't mean he's actually being like a hitchhiker
• 15:38
  and I always feel like in this particular area where harkening
• 15:42
  back to light Robert Holmes territory of like really well
• 15:45
  for through worlds you know, with a lot of detail.
• 15:48
  Oh yeah, yeah. I mean the whole this is in this
• 15:51
  is a this is a really Kind of layered story.
• 15:55
  I don't know if all the themes, come in, it work together.
• 15:58
  I mean on one level. It's about, you know, the
• 16:00
  circuses Doctor Who and you got like whiz kid as fan people that
• 16:06
  robbed. So I know, I know.
• 16:09
  Yeah, I've got the glasses look but on but then you've got
• 16:14
  Captain cooking mags as a parallel, doctor an ace.
• 16:17
  But then you've got the circus itself, which is a bunch of old
• 16:20
  hippies who've to some degree. Varying degrees have sold out
• 16:24
  and become, you know, 80s capitalists cutting gods of
• 16:29
  Ragnarok that other BBC Executives.
• 16:31
  Yeah, that's what. Yeah, that's, that's one reading
• 16:35
  of it. All are the gods of Ragnarok the
• 16:38
  fans because no one else is known because no one else is
• 16:41
  because no one else is watching and that's why I don't get
• 16:44
  that's what I don't get about the whole you know that because
• 16:47
  the I love how compromised morally the ringmaster is Rico,
• 16:52
  Rico Jones? Yeah.
• 16:54
  He's ambitious, but he's kind of at the end of his tether and
• 16:57
  he's made this Faustian pact that he's getting nothing out of
• 17:00
  he wants greatness, but no one's watching apart from the gods of
• 17:03
  Ragnarok. So are the gods of Ragnarok, the
• 17:05
  fans, the one, the only ones who are desperate for the content
• 17:10
  and they're the only ones watching and that's just a yeah
• 17:12
  satisfied as well and can never be satisfied.
• 17:16
  Yeah. Really accurate these days?
• 17:18
  I'm telling ya. So there are loads of levels to
• 17:21
  this. Hmm but I kind of Of think as if
• 17:25
  they have picked one and just yet, I'll work that out more.
• 17:29
  I don't know. I'm not, don't I don't, I
• 17:30
  criticize it too much because it's great.
• 17:33
  I think I need a signal that as a very entertaining story.
• 17:37
  It scores brilliantly, you know. Oh yeah, as as wacky adventure,
• 17:42
  it's just, you know, it's great. We can't hear the score, I am
• 17:49
  perfectly convinced. This is one of the best scorers
• 17:52
  it is. I've This as a CD and I'll
• 17:54
  listen to it quite a lot. It's fantastic is markers is
• 17:58
  first Marcus's first, but not his last because he then does
• 18:03
  ghost light and the curse of fenric.
• 18:06
  But I do think this is the best. You know, it's interesting.
• 18:09
  I'm I've wondered about this because I saw a tweet asking,
• 18:14
  you know, which is, which is the best?
• 18:15
  My mark are school. I don't know if there's I'm not,
• 18:20
  you know, I mean blessed another list of Acres because they'll
• 18:22
  always be counted. Did but I'm not really, I'm not,
• 18:27
  I'm not really one for kind of listing stuff.
• 18:30
  He says before he lists things but um but I think all his
• 18:35
  scores just work perfectly for the piece that the separate
• 18:38
  pieces. I really love about this school
• 18:42
  apart from it being like hugely memorable is there's like a
• 18:45
  fluidity to it. So it joins things up seamlessly
• 18:50
  though, especially in this first episode, it feels like it's just
• 18:53
  One long run in peace. Whereas in ghosts, like it's a
• 18:56
  little bit choppy in because for me, I think it's very good but a
• 19:00
  bit, too apparent. Whereas in this, I just feel.
• 19:03
  I feel like it helps the movement of the story.
• 19:06
  Not yet. No, I think you're right.
• 19:07
  I think you're absolutely right. I think, I think I really love
• 19:10
  the score for Ghostlight. It's really intricate and it
• 19:13
  lifts and otherwise potentially slightly static.
• 19:17
  Very Studio bound feeling piece, which I'm fucking love, but it
• 19:22
  does. But but I think, yeah, I think I
• 19:25
  think curse of fenric. It's a little bit.
• 19:28
  It's more of a bombastic action piece but the atmospheric stuff
• 19:32
  like when they're when they're they're translating the runes
• 19:37
  and the and scenes moments like that.
• 19:39
  But yeah, I do think Marquez is maybe maybe the best from this
• 19:45
  era only. When I've heard a lot about them
• 19:49
  heading to the rate of Flint, workshop, and then bringing in
• 19:52
  different composers, but actually think the 80s is one of
• 19:55
  the most interesting periods when it comes to the music.
• 19:57
  Look just because of the variety of schools that you get.
• 20:01
  Oh yeah yeah but I think I think with this point I think with
• 20:03
  Marques tumors I think the music in season 25 26 overall it gets
• 20:10
  the era. It's all of a sudden.
• 20:13
  I even like Kev McCullough's music and I know that's not a
• 20:15
  popular opinion. I'd yeah.
• 20:18
  I'd like to like it more than I do and it's funny one fluctuates
• 20:22
  and I think I think to be honest you know your opinions don't
• 20:25
  just change with time, they change with the You know, with
• 20:30
  the culture that you find yourself in, but I do remember,
• 20:33
  uni, I obtained Paradise Towers on VHS secondhand and I hadn't
• 20:37
  seen it since I was seven years old.
• 20:39
  So I was 19, I think so, I remember putting in and watching
• 20:43
  it and I remember taking the cassette out again, between
• 20:47
  thumb and forefinger. Like it was like a turd or
• 20:49
  something. It's the cat mr.
• 20:53
  The litter again, kind of thing. Yeah, but yeah, but yeah.
• 20:57
  I had a friend come to my house and she was like, I'll go on
• 21:01
  then and she says, I'm going to choose one of these stories and
• 21:03
  we'll watch a daughter because I was always wanting me.
• 21:06
  Young lady friends watch Doctor Who which has paralyzed towers,
• 21:09
  that sounds amazing. And she only got to the end of
• 21:11
  episode one, you guys turn it off.
• 21:12
  I can't watch any more of this. Yeah, I hate this.
• 21:15
  I'm you know, I'm not, you know, I am a fan, it's the with it, I
• 21:19
  am a fan and I think I'm fat until I talk to other fans than
• 21:23
  sometimes I realize. Oh, maybe I'm you know because
• 21:28
  It's not quite to the level of religion with me, if you know
• 21:31
  what I mean. So I can still, I can still it.
• 21:34
  Can still make me cringe to the point where I feel I'm going to
• 21:37
  cramp. Sometimes I think, is one of the
• 21:40
  one of the best scripts of the era Paradise, Towers.
• 21:43
  I think it's oh no, it totally is.
• 21:45
  And but that's the foot. That's the thought experiment.
• 21:48
  Just they in terms of production, they do everything
• 21:53
  right with greater show. And just button, think how good
• 21:58
  Paradise Towers would have been if they just got it.
• 22:01
  All right there to have a just gone to some, you know, disease
• 22:06
  to our blog and filmed. I mean, I think I think it would
• 22:08
  have made it's actually on this to you once I think's works as a
• 22:11
  studio piece, but imagine if they actually filmed it
• 22:15
  somewhere shitty. And yeah, actually cast proper
• 22:20
  like inner-city, young actors of the Cannons and stuff.
• 22:22
  We're talking Paradise. Towers were watching me Robbie.
• 22:26
  Here he is this whiskey. It.
• 22:29
  But, you know, I don't be I literally was pretty scary when
• 22:36
  I was younger. I know, it's not as good as this
• 22:38
  used to be, but I'm still terribly interested last that.
• 22:41
  Yeah, it's such a great line. He's such a fun.
• 22:45
  Is it character? Or is he more representational
• 22:49
  figure? Because he's there's no real
• 22:52
  depth to him. He is all surface you know but
• 22:54
  that's I don't think that's supposed to be any substance
• 22:57
  here with that character is in. Oh no.
• 22:59
  He appears to be. Yeah, yeah.
• 23:01
  He is a, he's a walking signpost.
• 23:04
  Okay, somehow we've talked all over.
• 23:06
  You ready for this? The air ducts are coming out the
• 23:08
  bus. We've talked all over that robot
• 23:11
  coming alive out of the sand and attacking mags and Ice which all
• 23:15
  looks incredible. Amazing, isn't it?
• 23:18
  And just this sequence here, I remember this week of here where
• 23:20
  he falls down in front of her and then the Hearst just Glides
• 23:24
  interview i-it's just so beautifully put together this
• 23:28
  and It's such a shock of the quality of this, you know, you
• 23:32
  know, the most of the decade. It's like, this is really
• 23:37
  actually good. I don't have to be.
• 23:40
  Yeah, I don't have to kind of be charitable watching it or kind
• 23:43
  of use my imagination to kind of, you know, make the gap
• 23:47
  between what they were trying to do and what they did.
• 23:50
  It's actually legitimately this is high quality stuff.
• 23:54
  This is really good. Oh, you know, this better than
• 23:56
  minute, where the bus conductor comes out.
• 24:00
  Actually quite the entire light shall I say it?
• 24:02
  Yolanda. Please do, please do ready.
• 24:04
  I'd like it there and back off peak.
• 24:05
  We can save a super save your senior citizen bimonthly season
• 24:08
  with optional luggage facilities, a free cup of coffee
• 24:10
  and a plastic cup. Oh no, I forgot the end.
• 24:13
  God damn it. I did pretty good.
• 24:15
  I did Beauty. You do just very well.
• 24:17
  But again, that's, that's very much like caretaker speak.
• 24:20
  Its he evidently loves this stuff.
• 24:23
  How creepy was actually even clown?
• 24:25
  The chief down there, looking back at him in the hearse.
• 24:29
  Like clowns, all kind of supposed to be great because
• 24:34
  that I do find anything fun of backgrounds at all.
• 24:36
  There's something about the painted face that I find very
• 24:38
  similar stuff. It's it creates a kind of
• 24:42
  anonymity. You can't you what you can't
• 24:44
  recognize someone once they're in white face like that.
• 24:47
  It's two steals your features in a way but you're in
• 24:51
  reddington's, performance is stunningly perfect.
• 24:55
  In this every single movement It's so perfectly.
• 24:59
  Well judged but is it? I think it's around.
• 25:02
  Is it around this time? That clowns did start to become
• 25:04
  creepy in pop culture, you know, around the time, you know,
• 25:08
  Stephen King Joker. You know that all rather that
• 25:13
  iteration of the Joker, you know, even registering one
• 25:16
  villain of the Year, Danny, in Doctor Who magazine is in the
• 25:18
  documentary, this saying how proud he was to be hidden
• 25:22
  villain of the year? It's well, it's so well-earned.
• 25:24
  I mean in the script on paper he's He's he's the lead
• 25:29
  henchman. Yeah, but but he's also, he's
• 25:32
  the one member of the original team who has completely thrown
• 25:36
  in with the gods of Ragnarok. He's the, he's the only
• 25:40
  completely unrepentant, one, who's actually reveling in this
• 25:45
  corruption. I mean, the great thing about
• 25:50
  the ringmaster and Morgana Morgana is that, you know,
• 25:54
  they're going along with it. But they know, they know, No,
• 25:57
  they know they've backed the wrong horse and now they're
• 25:59
  trapped and they're just, you know, they're still negotiating
• 26:03
  with themselves about, you know, there are two really well
• 26:07
  directed scenes in this and there between the chief clown
• 26:11
  and Morgana and the ringmaster in that sort of entrance area.
• 26:15
  And in the first one, I think it's an episode to the chief
• 26:19
  clown is very subservient and the ringmaster and we're gonna
• 26:23
  kind of like quite confident. And then as the shit Hitting the
• 26:27
  fan in episode, three more gotta and the ringmaster are panicking
• 26:33
  and desperate and the chief God has completely taken control and
• 26:37
  it's essentially the same scene of like, where are they?
• 26:39
  What's going on but it's just so interesting to see the Dynamics
• 26:43
  as the story progresses. Yeah, it's chanting kind of the
• 26:46
  late stage of their decline towards well death and Oblivion
• 26:51
  really, but it is kind of unclear what they're getting out
• 26:55
  of the deal because Cause it's just the gods watching that you
• 27:00
  kind of think they, they, they thought they were buying Fame
• 27:03
  and Fortune but they've got an empty audience and these three
• 27:08
  kind of, well, they're no suit X really, aren't they Underneath
• 27:12
  It All? But yeah, but yeah, so is, it is
• 27:15
  more, the case of like you've gotten this far.
• 27:17
  You can't really back out. Now you.
• 27:18
  Yeah. Well, there are doing this.
• 27:21
  Yeah, like, yeah, I'm just the chief around.
• 27:26
  Does fall into that? Dr. Villain Trope that is shared
• 27:30
  by Gwendolyn, in the Ghostlight and it and oh, balázs in
• 27:39
  Dragonfire of the, the person who's made the Faustian pact and
• 27:46
  has it is and has enjoyed Yeah, as enjoyed the sitting in the
• 27:51
  killing and so that that was scary about him here is that he
• 27:55
  just dives into that role and relishes it and that bit where
• 27:59
  Bill boy committed suicide and he kind of Grins and how was
• 28:02
  that his hand? And he's like he's loving it.
• 28:04
  Well Millar she regrets it isn't it.
• 28:08
  She wants to get away from him and with Gwendolyn as a scene
• 28:11
  like where she's in tears? Isn't there in bed like she you
• 28:14
  know she's kind of a yes yeah yeah I read that as kind of pity
• 28:18
  because Is she does, enjoy the she doesn't do or the murder.
• 28:22
  And balázs is the implication is since she's been working for
• 28:26
  came for 20 years and has killed an awful lot of people, you
• 28:29
  know. So interesting about all those
• 28:31
  three characters, you know, is this fabulous a bit where the
• 28:33
  doctor says to balázs, there's no way you'll be able to pay
• 28:37
  your debt back to Kane ever. Yes.
• 28:40
  And and with with Gwendolyn, yeah, I could have, I could give
• 28:45
  you all those trips to Java if you hadn't enjoyed them and the
• 28:49
  then within with the the chief clown, you kind of feel that him
• 28:53
  throwing himself into the Persona.
• 28:55
  The way he obviously has is kind of like a psychic Retreat.
• 28:59
  It's like he's, you know, the reality of what they've all
• 29:02
  agreed to do, that's it. That's the way he's kind of fled
• 29:05
  into. I'm just going to be of all out
• 29:07
  villain, you know? Because the alternative is to
• 29:10
  actually agonize over what I've done.
• 29:12
  So it's kind of like a final breakdown, they smear here,
• 29:16
  right? I find this so chilling where
• 29:18
  they Adolphe her scream so you can't even scream in fear.
• 29:23
  Yes. That's the Brits of that loss of
• 29:26
  agency. It's never great.
• 29:28
  This it, but it's like the idea that you can't even protect, you
• 29:31
  know, you can't even cry out in fear, okay, I put out a thread
• 29:37
  on Twitter to ask questions. Go ahead, go ahead.
• 29:41
  Well one of the questions relates to this Cliffhanger,
• 29:44
  it's from frasor Gregory who is a contributor and he asks is the
• 29:48
  ending to Part 1 the worst Cliffhanger in the show's
• 29:51
  history. The be the worst Cliffhanger but
• 29:57
  what this is the truest in there would have to be Cliffhangers
• 30:01
  there would have been no Cliffhangers which are worse and
• 30:05
  surely there must be it's, you know, maybe it is.
• 30:09
  Maybe it is bright. I've never minded it.
• 30:12
  That it doesn't, it doesn't strike me as a conqueror.
• 30:15
  It just it's one of those ones. It kind of had like, it's more
• 30:18
  of it. It's more of an act break or
• 30:19
  something. Really.
• 30:20
  Isn't it than a? It's not really a cliffhanger.
• 30:23
  Grrrr like obviously we know they're going to go in now we
• 30:25
  know the story's going to but it's one of those Cliffhangers
• 30:28
  the kind of pivots The Narrative a little bit because I'm asking
• 30:31
  the question. Are we going in or are we not?
• 30:33
  Yeah that's the thing. It's not that it's not one based
• 30:36
  on false surprise it is. It's a dramatic is a compulsory
• 30:39
  dramatic moment that. So yes it I'd say no because
• 30:44
  it's an end of an episode. Maybe it isn't a cliffhanger,
• 30:47
  but should all episodes and things be Cliffhangers or just
• 30:51
  is that episode. Evil of the Daleks where he's
• 30:54
  playing trains with the Daleks, you know?
• 30:56
  That's, that's the episode just ending on a laugh, you know.
• 30:59
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:59
  It's not a bad ending to an episode, but it's not a good
• 31:05
  Cliffhanger. So I think I think they're been
• 31:08
  worse Cliffhangers but, you know, it's been, you know, cheap
• 31:11
  surprise that get resolved, you know, by someone coming and
• 31:15
  saying stop. So I, this is this is never ever
• 31:18
  bothered me at all. I think Spence here is See,
• 31:23
  we're seeing that we ran is off screen, which I love and we'll
• 31:26
  talk more about that as we go into the story because I think
• 31:29
  off-screen deaths are more horrific than anything I could
• 31:32
  ever show us because what goes on in my mind, as opposed to
• 31:36
  what I'm actually seeing is that the best horror movies and it
• 31:38
  making, you think? Oh yes, yeah, I'm showing you
• 31:40
  stuff, but obviously, we're seeing something horrific is
• 31:43
  occurring and they're outside and he's saying, well, we going
• 31:46
  in there and so the kids at home, okay, no, don't and then
• 31:51
  it ends is quite clear. Ever.
• 31:54
  What is it? I yeah, I've got no problem with
• 31:56
  it. I just kind of you know it's a
• 31:57
  it's an interesting question but yeah I just argue it's an end of
• 32:02
  an episode isn't a cliffhanger. There we go.
• 32:04
  Yeah, a while on that note and it's been so much fun talk about
• 32:08
  episode one. Should we skip into episode 2?
• 32:10
  Let's do it.