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Transcript

The Heartless Spy | Francois Henry de la Motte · Beheaded

0:05
SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to season five, episode two.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: I'm Megan Moore.
0:10
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: New location.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: New location today.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: We always, I think every time, may no, maybe like the first season, we experimented a bit with location.
0:22
SPEAKER_02: But usually it's always at your house.
0:24
SPEAKER_02: Because your office is very acoustically sound, it's comfy.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: We love it.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: And this season we thought, hey, why not, you know, switch off so you don't always have hosting responsibility.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, you don't have driving responsibilities too.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: It's dangerous.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: I won't say why.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: I do appreciate all the driving that you've done.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Because you will always travel to my humble abode.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, and you always, again, make it very cozy.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: Now we're just like complimenting each other.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: But you do like a great hostess.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: You're a great hostess, and whenever I come over, you know, Megan's ready with her charcuterie and wine and like themes the food around the meal.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Where did you put your wine?
1:01
SPEAKER_00: I put it over here for danger.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: She knew she knew the arms were gonna flare.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Megan doesn't do well with red wine and rugs.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Notice I gave you a stem stem less.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: I do, thank you.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: The number of wine stains I have on my rug in my office because of all of our nights of podcasting, we're sitting on the floor with like red wine, and there's countless stains, but it kind of blends in with the colors.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: It works.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, in the next uh few episodes, we can turn my white rug into red.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Memories.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Memories.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so welcome to the new location, everybody.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: And again, we're trying out video a bit, so if you see it, very different from well, actually not that different from Megan's house.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, look how different it is.
1:40
SPEAKER_02: Literally Megan's piano that she gave me.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: And uh we have some medieval maps that we got from the Renaissance fair on the wall.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: Very cute.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, my goal is because I realize I am very late in getting the video out in conjunction with the first episode.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: That's not the goal.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: So my goal is by the time you're hearing this, you have already seen the first one.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Like it'll be released.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: I just have to finish it.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: It's an ambitious goal.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: It is.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: You know what?
2:08
SPEAKER_02: If it works, great.
2:09
SPEAKER_02: If not, whatever, we can use these as snippets or something.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: But I will say, real quick, with the medieval maps, and I've been trying to find someone on this earth.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: So when I bought my Lord of the Rings map, like they're, I don't know, 20 bucks a map or something.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: And they slipped in another map that I did not purchase.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: Like it was just stuck kind of to the back.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: And it's a map of Slovenia.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: I like it.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: And like we've used it at parties as like a joke and stuff, like as decor, but I don't I don't actually know what to do with this.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: I think I'm just gonna give it back to the medieval map maker.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Which I feel bad because these are very intricate maps.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: So the medieval map maker, he's goes to a lot of the Renaissance festivals, which is how we first encountered him.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: And he's awesome because first there's maps on every little thing, but you can customize and you can make requests for maps.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: And I would love for all of our devoted fans out there who love to send us gifts.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: They do.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: Some of them.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, I really want a map of like the different execution locations.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: That would be cool.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: I would love that.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: Especially if it's broken up by like region or something.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Like this is where Mary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Like obviously Tower of London, Tyburn.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, just kind of focus in on England, Ireland.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: The only other one I have is Arizona ghost towns up there.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: That's relevant.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: I know.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: But I I like your idea.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: And anyone who wants a Slovenia map, I will ship it to you for free.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: I thought that was mine.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: I thought I got clean.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: I gave it to you and you gave it back to you.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: I did give it back to you.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: That is absolutely 100% the truth.
3:44
SPEAKER_00: I tried to give it to you already.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: It just keeps coming back to you.
3:47
SPEAKER_02: It's in my garage right now.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: So anyone who actually wants it, please, by all means.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: I will say you've been an amazing hostess because Elizabeth made homemade French onion soup.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: I did.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: With Swiss cheese and French wine to kind of lean into the theme of the evening.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: We love to theme up our food prior to recording.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there was some pressure on tonight because Megan's always a good hostess when it comes to food and things.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: So I actually prepped the food last night.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: It's all Trader Joe's.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: No free ads.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Almost everything I do, I just reheat.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: So really don't give me that much credit.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, we had to time the baguettes correctly.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: It was, you know.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: And the number of times we've been recording when we go, oh shit, we left that in the oven.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: And we burn things by accident.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: The oven is off.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: There was been at least that I can remember three times of us recording where we've left something in the oven.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: I know.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: The flatbread that one time, the shepherd's pie.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Shepherd's pie.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: There's definitely something else in the new house in foil.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, you're doing great.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: I like being here.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so we've got French stuff going on, but before we get into any of that, like so much going on in the news right now.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: I know.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: And when we say news, we don't mean like world news.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: We mean like historical.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, us in our Swifty universe, we have a lot that we're trying to keep up on with right now.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: But on top of that, so so like I've got like the two Instagram accounts.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: I've got like my personal one, which is primarily like Taylor Taylor Swift stuff on there.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: And then the beheaded one, which is obviously our stuff.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: Everything that's like historical and all of the cool stuff.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: And over the weekend, I was like bouncing back and forth between the two because there was stuff going on in the Swifty universe, and then there was stuff going on in the Tudor History universe.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Called them the universes.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so we we've got to get into that a little bit because it was so spot on with the timing.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: Would you say the timing was really good or really poor?
5:52
SPEAKER_00: Because what we shared Because of our conclusion.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Our conclusion on our last episode was in one direction, and two days later they came out with more information on the topic.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm starting to think they wait for us to come out with hot takes and then they just say the opposite right after.
6:10
SPEAKER_02: So we've noticed this since we did our Cromwell episode, which Thomas Cromwell, if you haven't listened, is our season finale of season four.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: So um we had been trying to talk to Dr.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: O to Dr.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Owen Emerson the entire season, trying to figure out a date that would make sense for us.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, clarification, not trying.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: Talking, but trying to get the date right.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: We were talking to him.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: We were I was just pestering him every single day, like it's me, it's me.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: No, no, he was very responsible.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: He was great.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: He was great.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: But but it was weird because we knew we wanted to have him on for a special episode, and we happened to be doing Cromwell like in con not in conjunction, but around the same time.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: And it happened that he had just you know made his big discovery, uh, not him specifically, but his team.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, and they found Thomas Cromwell's Book of Hours, right?
7:00
SPEAKER_02: Like buried in Trinity College, and so he talked a lot about that on our show.
7:05
SPEAKER_02: It was a great show, wonderful timing because we were gonna talk about Cromwell anyway.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: So good.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: And then all over the news about Cromwell.
7:12
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just gonna say this kind of in sequence.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: And then when we went to London just a month ago, we obviously saw Cromwell's book, and we were so excited because it's a very beautiful, like historic book.
7:22
SPEAKER_02: There's like, you know, a like a garnet stone on the front.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: It's you know, this latched old book.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it was so cool to finally see.
7:29
SPEAKER_02: We saw it in person, we took photos, such a good timing.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: And then next to the book is Anne Boleyn's Book of Hours, which we've seen in so many documentaries.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: And we asked, we're like, oh, like, why don't you have it open to the page where it says, like, you know, my time will come, like Anne Boleyn.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Oh, we only do that on special occasions, like her execution date and all of that.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: And we were like, Okay, great.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: And I was even looking at the book, and I was like, I even said something about oh, how it looked so like worn, and I thought it would be more ornate, and they were like, Oh, well, this was her like everyday prayer book.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: So we bought I don't I won't say bought it, that's true.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: But then we this was at Hebrew Castle, by the way.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: And then after Hebrew Castle, days later, we finally go to uh Hampton Court Palace, and what do we see?
8:17
SPEAKER_02: We see the same book of ours, Anne Boleyn's book of hours, and I like revolted.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: I like no photography allowed, so we were not allowed to take a photo of it to prove like, okay, what's what?
8:29
SPEAKER_00: We are so confused.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: And we actually she she knows our podcast, but there is a would you what would you call her docent, a uh what's her title?
8:38
SPEAKER_00: They have titles, and I forget what they are.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: That's okay, but she works there, yeah.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: One of the employees at Hampton Court Palace, but they're all very knowledgeable.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: And um Zara's an expert in Elizabeth I's history.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Like she loves all types of tutor history, but especially about Elizabeth I.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, they're not just employees, they're there to help and educate, and they do talk sometimes and whatnot.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: So educated people, very knowledgeable people, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_02: They're not just like volunteers at this museum and they don't know nothing about the subject.
9:06
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's not who they are.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: So we already had these long conversations about the book of hours at Heaver, and now we're at Hampton Court and we see the Book of Hours.
9:14
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: And at first I was like, wait, does it say replica?
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Does it say something else?
9:19
SPEAKER_02: Like, what is this?
9:20
SPEAKER_02: But it's very clear, yeah, part two.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: It's very clear in Hampton Court, it's like this is Amberlynn's book where she wrote the inscription, like the famous inscription, my time will come.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: But also not opened up to the inscription.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Also not open.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: So we have yet to see the actual writing.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: So we like, poor Zara, I kind of feel bad for her because we bombard her after We were hot on the topic, and we were like kind of angry and we're like, Zara, we're like, we just saw this same book at Heaver, and Heaver claims that that's the book of ours that has the inscription, and she's like, no, absolutely not.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: She's like, this is the book.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: And she was with someone else who was also like, no, well, not to call them out, but that must be pretty dishonest because we have the book right now.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, somebody is lying.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: And they're just through away.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: What I loved the best of this whole exchange was they try to blame us, like, no, you stupid Americans, you don't know.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: Like you made the mistake.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: And I pulled up my photos and I was like, this was not three days ago, and I like show the you know the inscription.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: Not the inscription of the book.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: They were like, you must have been looking at Catherine of Aragon's book of hours, or you were looking at Cromwell's.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: And we, yeah, you showed the little plaque that said Anne Boleyn's book of hours.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: And I said, What does this say?
10:35
SPEAKER_00: We weren't defense.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Zara, if you're listening to this, so sorry, but we were a little bit defensive there, but we were just passionate.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, I was so passionate.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: I was confused because I was like, which is the real book?
10:45
SPEAKER_02: And they said, This is the real book.
10:47
SPEAKER_02: You know, we got it on loan from Heaver, so yes, Heaver normally has it, but they're like, But whatever you saw at Heaver's not that book.
10:54
SPEAKER_02: So we were like, I didn't know what to do, and we literally sat there and I kept bringing it up.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: We'd be like at dinner later, and I'm like, but Megan, like what do we do?
11:01
SPEAKER_00: Which book?
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Who, like, who do we call out?
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Do we call up Dr.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: Tracy Borman?
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, who do we talk to about this?
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we actually DM'd Emerson.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: I I did uh I did message Emerson, um, but we couldn't really get an answer.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: But then, like the day after like literally the day we left London, Emerson posts a video explaining there's two books.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: There's two books of hours.
11:25
SPEAKER_02: Which has never ever been ever been said to us, or in my knowledge, in a documentary, they've never explained that there's two books.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: It's always the one.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: I I was confused, and then Kate McCaffrey just a couple days ago came up with a really cute video too.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: She's like, Oh, finally, like both books are are together.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: This one was on loan at Hampton Court Palace, and now we're bringing it back to Heaver, and here's the two books together.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, We'd like to think we had something to do.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: This is like the parent trap.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: She goes, There's two of them.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: Literally, I was like Meredith Blake, like, there's two.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: I was I was shook, and I'm still a little shook because I feel like they kind of swept us under the rug, and now they have this whole, oh, there's two surprise.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: I think we made that happen.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: But in all of our research, we've never heard of two.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we're just not that good at being researchers, but I am not come across that there was two books.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: We asked them.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: I even said to them, I gave Was there two?
12:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I gave the people at Hanson Court an out because I was like, maybe like the one we saw at Hebrew was her everyday book, kind of like they had mentioned, and this is the one where her inscription is.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: Like I said that, giving them a you know, some some reasoning here.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: And they they were just like, no, no, like there's one book and there's one inscription.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And this is it and we have it.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: So the reason we're bringing this up and why we're so passionate about it is because we truly think that maybe we just like cosmically, we just like spur the topics of what's happening.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: We're giving ourselves a lot of credit here, so bear with us.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: But so our last episode, season five, episode one, that just came out, is about Perkin Warbeck, who was the claimed he he claimed that he was actually Richard, one of the lost boys from the Tower of London.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: We went into the story of the princes in the tower.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: That was on a Tuesday.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: On Thursday, Philippa Langley, historian, she is the same historian who discovered King Richard III's remains and proved it was him at the Battle of Ballsworth.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Has recent discovery, believing that perhaps the princes did survive and giving more reason to why Perkin Warbeck was actually telling the truth.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: Like he's actually uh Richard IV.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that most people sorry, I'm trying to grasp my head about the fact that I I very, very rarely hear about Perkin Warbeck, I feel like he know he's not that well known of someone in the Tudor stories.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: No, he doesn't come up, you know, sometimes when you're coming across different books or you're scrolling and you see a lot of like Jane Gray, Mary Quinn Discuss, there's like the main players.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Perkin Warbeck does not come up that frequently.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: No, but over the weekend, every post was about Perkin Warbeck and The Lost Princess.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, we just did this.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And again, not that we're behind any of this.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: I just find it very coincidental that in the last six weeks are that influential.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: Somehow this keeps happening.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, you know, for two like dumb Americans from Arizona, we sure like nail a lot of these stories.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
14:30
SPEAKER_00: I just also love how humble we are about our so humble, yeah.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: We're very humble and obviously very influential.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: So take that for what it is.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: But um, all that said though, with the princess in the tower, now the question so we kind of ended the episode, not to spoil it, but like claiming Perk and Warbeck as a liar.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: As a fraud.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: We were like, there's no way this guy actually was real, like yeah, obviously real person, but you know, he wasn't the prince in the tower.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: It was all just a big farce.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: You know, he had enough Yorkist there supporting him, making him believe it himself.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: But our general conclusion was that he was a knowing fraud, and now the general concern.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: Are we the fraud?
15:10
SPEAKER_02: Perhaps.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: Like us or love us, whether we're right or wrong, you know, we're in the conversation, and that's it's big time.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: So interesting.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there'll be more to come with our future episodes and other overlaps, because it's kind of crazy.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a it's a lot of weird coincidences lately.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: But I'm excited about it because I felt like the timing was so relevant.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: So if vice versa, yeah, if whether you heard our episode and you want to learn more about them, or you didn't hear the episode, but you've been hearing things about the princess and the tower, you know, check out both sources.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: We are credible, and I thought we had some very strong points in that episode.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: We did need to go back and read what Philippa Langley's coming out with.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: And Tracy Boardman has a documentary.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it already came out.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: It it's it sucks because like it'll always come out in Britain first, yeah.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Which, you know, is like our version of the BBC.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we'll have to wait for that and see what Bianchi looks at.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, long story short, we're we're learning every day, but our conversations are getting more relevant to a lot of things that are happening.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: So it's very exciting.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: Let's get to our man of the evening.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna call him Monsieur Francois Henry de la Motte.
16:33
SPEAKER_03: That's a good one.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: We might just call him De la Motte for ease of conversation.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: You guys know us in our pronunciation.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: Frank.
16:40
unknown: Frank.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: Frank, that's a new one we're just gonna start saying.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: Um, but good old Frankie, his his story really, you know, he he becomes a main character later in his life.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: So he's one of those stories where we know next to nothing about his early life.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: That's also because he was a spy.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: He was a French spy.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: So was he maybe that good of a spy that we truly know nothing about his early life?
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Could be.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: We don't know when he was born, we don't know where in France he was from.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: All we know is when he started coming into the picture in England.
17:14
SPEAKER_02: So how he's well known is that he was essentially somebody who was giving secrets of the English Royal uh Navy and the armies back to France during the time of the late 1700s, which again we'll we'll cover this more as the episode goes on.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: But the two main things that are happening now politically in Western Europe, obviously late 1700s, what's going on?
17:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, Megan.
17:41
SPEAKER_02: Um, wars.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: Wars.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: Wars usually safe to say.
17:45
SPEAKER_02: Wars do happen around that time.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: And because we're again dumb Americans from Arizona, what's going on that's a big deal to us?
17:51
SPEAKER_02: The Civil War.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: Yes, Megan.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: Nope, not that one.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: I'm kidding.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: The American Revolution.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: Yes, the American Revolution, which we learned about fifth grade, and to be honest, I haven't thought about it that much since.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: Um, so there there's obviously this big struggle with the American colonies trying to claim their independence from Britain.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, you have the French that are coming in and they're kind of helping like England lose.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: Like they don't want England to win their colonies and have all this land in the Americas.
18:25
SPEAKER_02: They're too trying to get land in the Americas.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: They're too trying to be this big naval presence in the world and going around claiming lands.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's a little bit of a competition there.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: Um so with America, they're also kind of trying to sail around to the West or is it East Indies?
18:41
SPEAKER_02: The West Indies.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: The West Indies, thank you.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: Um the West Indies and uh England every time is kind of I guess stifling their efforts.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: I just whenever I hear about the West Indies and this whole situation, I always just think of Price of the Caribbean.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the East Indian Trading Company, right?
19:00
SPEAKER_00: But I said that.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but kind of similar uh, you know, backgrounds there.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: So they're fighting wars.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: I wrote it down here.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Not only is it the American Revolution going on, but in the West Indies, the North Atlantic, and in the Indian Ocean.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: France and Britain.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: And this is I'm going rogue here, I'm going off the top of my memory.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: I think this was after the 700 Years War, where England already beat out France.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: So I think France was a little bit like burned by that.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: So that's more reason why they were just doing anything and everything to just be defiant and go up against England.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Because they're like, these guys are bullies.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: And since terrible spices.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna yeah, with bad food, no offense to you guys.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: I tried to order my best.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: Um, but but yeah, and this is kind of a tale as old as time, right?
19:48
SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, w when we talk about any kind of tutor story, like sometimes they're allies with France, and Henry's hanging out with Francis, and everyone's cool with each other, and other times it's like we hate France, we want that land, we want Calais, like whatever.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: There's always just like territorial disputes, religious disputes once English or England becomes more Protestant.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: There's always something going on between these two countries, big rivals, because generally they're similar.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: So roughly the same size, roughly same strength, roughly the same like good, strong leaders.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: So there's always something that they have to fight about.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: And at this point in time, it's really just like what's going on in other parts of the world that they're fighting about.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's the American Revolution, and uh our our man Frank, Francois Henry de la Motte, just starts to kind of come like come into play.
20:39
SPEAKER_02: So what we know about him, and again, he was a spy, so we don't know a heck of a lot.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: But what we do know is that he uh lived on Bond Street in London.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Cool.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes, he dressed very much like a gentleman.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: He kept very good company, so he's always at parties and very like affluent about town.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: He spoke English, obviously.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: So people just thought he was this wealthy French aristocrat, like who just came to England to to live his life and throw parties.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, and he was very well acquainted with the geography of London, southern, uh, southern England.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: So it was it started to get to a point where we're like, well, maybe we should look more into who this guy is because we can't just accept the fact that he's just a rich guy coming over from France.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: There's gotta be more to the story, especially a man that essentially has no past.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: So, how about this?
21:30
SPEAKER_00: We didn't quite discuss the lineup of things.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: We're we're going, we're improving here.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: No.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: What if I kind of tell the story of how it happened?
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and then we kind of lead into who he was.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: Is that all right with you?
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Why not?
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Wow, we've never done this, just like on the spot.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: No.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: Alright, so I'm gonna set up the players of the scene right now.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: First of all, there's a guy named Steven Ratcliffe.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: Love the name.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: He owns a boat.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and Ratcliffe is asked to transport paper.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: And packages and certain things by some guy named Roger.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: So Roger.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: I think Roger has a longer name, no?
22:09
SPEAKER_00: It's Monsieur Isaac Roger.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, Monsieur Isaac Roger.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: So we know that Ratcliffe has the boat.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: Roger comes to him.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: He says, Hey, I'm gonna give you 20 pounds for every delivery of these papers and these packages that you can get over to Boulogne, France.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Which is a significant amount of money in that time.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not so bad.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: And so he starts doing it, and he does one, two, three, maybe four runs for him, and all of a sudden, Ratcliffe starts getting a little bit suspicious.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I feel like what I'm doing is dirty and illegal, but I just can't tell you why.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Just uneasy.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: It's uneasy.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't know what is in these packages and what the paperwork is.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: So he goes to his friend, Stuart of Sandwich.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: This is a real name.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: Love a good sandwich.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: He's a merchant.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: He's a good friend of Ratcliffe, Joseph Stewart.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: And this guy says, Alright, I'm not gonna touch this dirty business either, but I know someone we can go to.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: So next time you get one of these packages, accept it like normal.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna go run it over to Lord Hillborough, the Secretary of the State, who they have connections with.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: He's like, we're gonna have him open it and figure out what is this information.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: And they open one of the papers and let's be clear, the Secretary of State isn't opening the packages himself.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: He's giving it to someone.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Like you know, someone else opened them.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: It's passing through hands, but they're trying to do it the correct way and not just do it themselves because they don't want blood on the hand, their hands.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: They don't want to be seen as doing anything dirty or illegal.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: So they're going through the steps to call to basically like you know, snitch on someone.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: They're taking they know something's going on, and obviously there are wars going on, so they have to be careful.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Everyone's on their guard here.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: And they find out that all of the papers are very, very, very detailed documentation of what's going on with the British Navy.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: What are they preparing for?
23:55
SPEAKER_00: How many men are going, what are their maps, where are they, what's their mission?
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is all amongst them going out into the West Indies and you know, they're trying to track them down, and then they are then giving that information obviously to the French.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: And the French are this is how they're finding the British Navy so well.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: So much so where it actually does turn into one of the big like like battles.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Battles, yeah.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there was a time where um, I believe it was like just before 1780, I want to say.
24:30
SPEAKER_02: I don't have the exact date, um, but uh France was able to attack these British ships that were preparing for a voyage to the West Indies.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: So they haven't like even quite left yet.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: And they were sitting there like stockpiling their ships, like getting ready for this big thing.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: And it led to the death of about 207 people, including like officers, seamen, marines, infantry, prisoners of war, like all these people were just like blindsided because they weren't even sailing yet, they were just getting ready for this voyage.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, How does the f do the French know exactly where we are, where we're about to go, you know, what kind of things we're gonna have on hand?
25:08
SPEAKER_02: And they just had this like all-out little little mini blitz on them.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: And again, there's only certain ways you can know those things at this time.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they know so they're pretty sure Roger's not the one who's actually writing up these papers because he's kind of like a more of a servant, more of a henchman, yeah.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: And so they know he's obviously working for somebody, right?
25:26
SPEAKER_00: They just don't know who is the author of these papers, so they kind of set up a little scheme here.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Ratcliffe decides to come at Roger and get angry and start a fight saying, You owe me money because he hasn't been paying him.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: And in this altercation, he demands to talk to his principal.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: So Ratcliffe wants to talk to Roger's boss.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: He's like, Whoever's giving you these directions, bring them here.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: And he does it.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: So Roger brings in who our man of the hour.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: Francois Henry Delamotte.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, because you you are practicing French.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Just like your one-year anniversary, right?
26:06
SPEAKER_02: Over your streak.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: Streak, I want to be clear.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: I've been practicing for two years, but the streak is one year or alive.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: So you get all the French words now.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, cool.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: And uh Delamot is kind of like, like, what is the problem here?
26:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the situation?
26:22
SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Well, of course I'm not paying you your 20 pounds because you're slow as hell.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: He goes, the three, the first three or four deliveries were fine.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: You were great, and I paid you.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: After that, like, what the heck is taking so long?
26:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm literally getting to France faster than these papers, and the information is worthless.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: So, as a recap, then so Ratcliffe is upset that he's not getting paid.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: But Delama is saying you're not getting paid because the sh the shipments are delayed.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm literally showing up to France faster than these packages, so what the heck is happening?
26:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he doesn't know that the reason they're taking so long is because everything's being copied and relayed and like picked apart.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: And he's just like, these are you guys are the slowest delivery men I've ever hired.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: They're just gathering evidence.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you make a good point.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: They're actually making copies of all the papers.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh eventually, though, uh, I felt like Delamont was pretty reasonable with this.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: He goes, fine, fine, fine.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna pay you your 20 pounds.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: On top of that, I'm gonna pay you a little bonus here of a hundred guineas.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Just get the job done.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: He's like, do what you used to do and just be faster.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Just be better.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Which leads us to them now figuring out who the author is.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: So again, like we we knew a certain amount of information.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: I think he was already on people's radar just because he wasn't quite hiding in the shadows, right?
27:44
SPEAKER_02: He's hiding in plain sight this whole time.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Like he for a long time was unsuspected to be of the service of France, they just assumed he was a Frenchman.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's when people start to like perk up their ears a bit and put a little bit more of a watch on Des Lamont.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it starts with just some routine surveillance.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, they they know that he's already have you know has these papers on him.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: Um so because he's a spy and he's good at it, they don't find anything necessarily that he's doing day to day that's alarming.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: But what they do do is they finally like kind of corner him and they ask to search his person.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: And once he is searched, he has literal papers on him of the sailing schedules, of their locations, like where you know, where they're gonna be, what they're gonna have on hand, the strength of the armies, meaning like the size of them.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: So immediately it's like he went through such great lengths to kind of slip through the cracks for so long.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: And as soon as they got him, like they got him.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: They got him so fast, and yeah, and even that self-that story in itself is kind of funny because two a king's messenger and it was basically two men showed up at his house and they knew it's where he lived on Bond Street.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it was it was two of the king's messengers show up, and at first Francois is not home, Delamont is not home, right?
29:03
SPEAKER_00: And so his servant's like, I don't know where he is, and they actually end up sitting in his kitchen all night waiting for him until he comes the next day, and then instantly his servant's like, Uh, these two guys want to see you, and they were not been very nice to me.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: And so instantly he's like, Oh, shoot.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and I guess there was this little slip-up where he tried, like, while they were, I don't know, are talking or whatever, to like remove the papers, and he like throws them to the side, yeah, and they all see it.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: They're like, dude, but those are the papers.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: I hope he's had like two glasses of whiskey and thinks he's like being super discreet.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: He's like, I just have to sneeze over here.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Excuse me.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and then that's where it leads to the full-on like physical re search and removal of him, and and he gets arrested.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: He is arrested with someone else, so they found out he had a partner.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: He did, Henry Lut Lutterlow.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: Did I say it correctly?
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Letterlow, he's this what they call like the second principal in the scheme.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, an accomplice.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: An accomplice, and he was from Germany, so he was a German spy.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is just so we're clear on timeline, this is now January 1781.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
30:14
SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, so they're both arrested and essentially like taken to the world's most romantic location, the Tower of London.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: Which I love.
30:26
SPEAKER_02: So they took him there, and he and I believe his accomplice too were in there for a whopping six months.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: That's quite long for Tower of London.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: I feel like that is quite long, and I feel like they wouldn't have had the nice quarters.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: Quarters.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: He's a Frenchman, yes, he's like fancy, but you know, they have so much suspicion over him, they found him literally red-handed with all these papers, so they just kind of toss him in and think about what to do with him for those six months.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: So it's not until July of the same year, 1781, that he's finally taken to London's like central criminal court, which is called Old Bailey.
31:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's when they go through the proceedings, which this is fascinating.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: It is one of the only, maybe first, times where the entire case was recorded from Old Bailey.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Fr like verbatim.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: Everything.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: If anyone wants to take the time to read the trial, it was actually very entertaining and kind of funny.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of funny.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of back and forth, and all I can picture through it was say it for me.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: What's the movie I'm thinking of?
31:30
SPEAKER_00: Because I know you're reading my brain right now.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's um Mr.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: Toad's The Many Adventures of Mr.
31:35
SPEAKER_02: Toad.
31:36
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's technically the books Wind in the Willows.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't actually know what the movie's called.
31:40
SPEAKER_02: It's called Ichabod and Mr.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: Toad.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, it reminded me of Mr.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: Toad from Disney when they're in the court scene because it was like very back and forth of these like little short questions, and it almost sounded snarky, some of their responses.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: And they're like, and that's when you saw the papers, and like, what papers?
31:56
SPEAKER_00: Big papers.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh and they go through the different interviews of the different witnesses.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: So Ratcliffe is there, Stewart is there, the whole gang, the sandwich that is Steward of Sandwich is there.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: And in the trial notes, you can read the whole setup, you can read the attorney general statements, his reasoning, and then they go through the interviews.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, as part of the interviews, they were like, he's like, and then you carried the papers.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: He's like, Yes, I carried them.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: He's like, You carried what?
32:23
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I carried the papers.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Like they're really trying to get like get them to say things specifically.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: But the prosecutors did say, to uh De Lamotte's credit, they said, in the whole history of mankind, an instance was not to be produced of a more ingenious, able, and industrious spy than Mr.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: De Lamotte.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: Which I thought was interesting, because I'm like, I'd like to know again why they thought he was such a good spy, other than the fact that he was hiding in plain sight and he essentially had no past and no history.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean they found him pretty quickly.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: I feel like they found him quick and they get papers literally on his body.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: So I I that's good.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: That's a very nice, like um I guess flattering thing to say about somebody who's just a big time spy, but also like are you that good?
33:11
SPEAKER_00: Are you I feel like if you are truly a spy, yeah, you wouldn't use your name.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Right?
33:18
SPEAKER_00: Maybe was his name actually that?
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
33:21
SPEAKER_00: De Lamont?
33:21
SPEAKER_00: But the minute that the person who's transporting your your criminal evidence wants to be like, I want to talk to the boss.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: You don't just come and be like, I'm the one who wrote this.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, this is me.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: He's like, hide behind Je suis, Monsieur de Lamont.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: How can I help you?
33:40
SPEAKER_02: Say, yes, I wrote all these letters.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: We.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Good job.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: Kind of.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know tenses yet.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: You just feel like he should hide back behind some layers of posse.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: I thought it would be like, oh, like, I mean, we just our first episode was talking about Perkin Warbeck, right?
34:00
SPEAKER_02: And his layers of identity.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: So you'd think there'd be a little more peeling back of like, actually, he was a peasant from like Burgundy, and his real name was I don't know, give me a good French name.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Monjour Louis.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: Louis.
34:16
SPEAKER_02: The 14th.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: Good, good.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: From Burgundy.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: Like you'd think there'd be these, like, oh, these big, you know, reveal moments, and so it's like, uh, maybe maybe they didn't really care to dig that deep in, and they just knew, hey, like, either way, it doesn't matter where he's from, what his name is, what he did in the past, either way, this is high treason.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: High treason.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Which is always, always the case.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: His lawyer, I think, did actually a pretty decent job through the trial.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: At one point, he they're trying to use these copies of the letters as the evidence.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't you?
34:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: And they're reading out everything that these letters are saying, and he's going, Whoa, okay, uh, this is not actually valid evidence because they're just copies.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: You have to prove to me that the real version of it exists somewhere, right?
35:03
SPEAKER_00: As long as it's a copy, it's not in his own handwriting.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: There's no proof that that's even what he wrote someplace.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Anyone could make up a copy of something.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: I thought that was pretty fair.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: That reminds me of like modern day like internet.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Like people read something on the internet and they're like, well, I read it on the internet.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: Like, it must be true.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: Someone took the time to like publish this.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like you could say that back in the day of like copies of manuals or pamphlets or letters.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: You could be like, Well, this is someone just wrote this.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll prove it's true.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, while that was a very valid argument, they said, You should have brought this up sooner, you should have objected to this type of evidence sooner on.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: And and then they kind of like made a joke.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: They're like, Okay, we'll erase this from your memory, then like, no, we've already we've already said it.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: They said oblivate.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they tried to oblivate all their memories, they couldn't.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so the jury had to kind of use that.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I really I I think they tried to give him a good run, but unfortunately there were some witnesses that just were not working in in Delamotte's favor.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: Um, so when it came down to it, they did find him guilty.
36:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, and again, they accused him of high treason, spy activity, mostly relaying naval intelligence in like Portsmouth area, um, I think there was another town that he focused on kind of in South uh England.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: So after all of this is said and done, he's found guilty um about of high treason, of being a spy for France, and of relaying important naval intelligence, specifically in like Portsmouth, uh, Hampshire, like southern England area.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: So once they find this out, they obviously say you're going to be given the most severe punishment.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: And we always think about what happens with his friend, right?
36:48
SPEAKER_02: What happens to Henry Letterlow.
36:52
SPEAKER_02: He, instead of like coming to his friend's defense, instead of just trying to uh figure out ways both of them can get off, he says secretly, actually, it was like he kind of had a bold face in court, but then he goes to um, you know, I don't know if it was the judge or the prosecution, but he goes to them and says, you know what, I will give you everything you need to know if you just let me off.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: So he was willing to spill the beans about everything to be let go.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: They said he gave damning testimony against his friend.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: He totally threw him under the bus.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: He's just as guilty as him.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that that Henry gets off with scot-free with literally no sentence at all, found innocent when his friend gets the most extreme sentence of all mankind.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: It's just like, where's the justice?
37:44
SPEAKER_02: And you have a really good quote too about what they told Henry uh Letterlow.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the prosecution said about Letterlow.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: They said, While you were poor, you grew rich by joining Delamte in schemes of assisting France against England.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: When you got rich, you intended to grow still richer by assisting England in schemes against France.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Like he's the perfect Benedict Arnold.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: This guy cannot figure out his his allegiance, right?
38:12
SPEAKER_00: He's so they're basically saying wherever it benefits you, right, when you wanted to get rich, you helped out France, but now you want to get even richer, so now you're gonna help us out.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: And they're kind of like, and guess what?
38:22
SPEAKER_00: You will be rich from this.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: So he was actually pretty well rewarded for just spilling the beans on everybody.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, and you have to consider this that he's not a Frenchman, right?
38:31
SPEAKER_00: True, I didn't actually think of that.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he doesn't care.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I'm from Germany.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: He's German, he doesn't really give a shit like what happens between England and France.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: So he's like, Yeah, I'll give you whatever you need to know, get me off.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't really have a dog in this fight, it's cool.
38:46
SPEAKER_02: So, and they're probably not worried about him because they're like, at the end of the day, this guy's German.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's not gonna have this secret network of French spies that he's orchestrating.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: They're like, Yeah, he's a good point.
38:57
SPEAKER_02: He's just a random German.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: Like, they were, I think, willing to make a fair trade for his life in exchange for all the information.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: So the greatest part about this whole trial being documented word by word, yeah, is at the very end, of course, they they give the sentence, right?
39:13
SPEAKER_00: So we can read it verbatim, um, where they find him guilty.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: They say sentence, and so this is coming from Mr.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: Justice Bueller or Buller.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: Bullen.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: Not quite.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: Dang.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: He says Francis Henry Delemote, which I like how they don't call him Francois, they call him Francis.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: The offense of which you stand convicted is so enormous, and the dangerous tendency of it is so obvious to everybody who has heard, or who may hereafter read the transaction of this day.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: You that's hence us.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: Little did they know.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: Like 200 years later, it's us.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Season five beheaded.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: That it would be but mispending time to enlarge upon it.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: It is an offence for which every state under the sun has has agreed in inflicting the most exemplary punishment.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: And then he goes on and on this huge paragraph, just like really belittling him and making him feel like a total piece of shit.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: And then he goes on the sentence of the law in your case is, and this court doth a judge, that you be drawn upon a hurdle to the place of execution, that you there be hanged by the neck, but not until you are dead.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: But that being alive, you be cut down and your bowels taken out.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Are you doing hand motions with this?
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing hand motions.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: We have video.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: And your bowels taken out and burnt before your face, that your head be severed from your body, and your body divided into four parts, and that your head and quarters be disposed of as the king shall think fit, and may the Lord have mercy on your soul.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Good job, great charading there.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: So our favorite hang drawn and quartering, which is like not what you want to hear in court.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: No.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: No, it's terrible.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: It's just crazy because I'm trying to remember like the hang drawn and quarters we've had of the past, right?
41:07
SPEAKER_02: We obviously had William Wallace, very infamous one because he led the rebellion of Scotland.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: Another Francois.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: Um Francois design Dominions at the Place de Grave, very gruesome one, which we put on our mug, his little quote.
41:21
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: The day will be hard.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: Um you know, but those were like rebelling against the king, trying to murder the king.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: Like they were very big rebellious acts.
41:32
SPEAKER_02: Whereas this guy, in my opinion, I mean, it's just paperwork.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: He's just really a gossip, right?
41:40
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like white-collar crimes.
41:42
SPEAKER_02: In my opinion, he should go to minimal security white-collar prison.
41:48
SPEAKER_02: But you know, hang drawn and quartered, same thing.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: He's not even that good at it.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: He got caught so fast.
41:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so he's only doing it for about a year.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: I think that's pretty extreme.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was obviously one of the most severe, disgusting, gross punishments you can give to somebody.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: Hang, drawn, and quartered, which we just described.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: So that was on that was on July 11th, 1781.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: That was the day of his trial.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: He was actually executed on July 27th, 1781.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't that far off.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: And so on that date, he arrived to the place of execution.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: Is that Tyburn?
42:25
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
42:25
SPEAKER_02: Actually.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Tyburn.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: Megan has a whole book just on Tyburn executions.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: And there was a section in there which I made my husband go and find and have to read out.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: He did a good job.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: I got a little bit frustrated at first because I couldn't guide him to the chapter via FaceTime.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: We're normally at Megan's house where she can actually.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: I have the books.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: Instead, he he was my scribe and he found and took pictures of it.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: He's a good little yeah.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: He wore a black suit to his execution.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: Did you know that?
42:48
SPEAKER_00: He did, yes.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you have that?
42:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say that next.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, rude.
42:52
SPEAKER_02: He also had a little devotional book.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: So it was said that he was very stoic and all he did was just read from his devotional book.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, and his actual hanging, once it was all said and done, was about over an hour, and he wasn't dead at the end of his hanging.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: It was hanged at the neck until not quite dead.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: Until not dead.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: Fifty-seven minutes.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: He was strung up there.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: Which is long.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: It's a long time.
43:21
SPEAKER_02: It's a long time to be wiggling about.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: I know.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: And I'm wondering, I mean, you know, if you've seen Braveheart, it's like your feet, I guess, are still on the floor.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: Like you're not obviously hanging from the rope.
43:31
SPEAKER_02: It's more just like strangulation.
43:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're just kind of like letting you dangle a bit.
43:35
SPEAKER_02: I think so.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: Like I think you can still technically like touch your toes so that way you're not actually like getting strangled the whole time.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean you're strangled, but you're not like break the your neck or anything like that.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they weren't looking to break your neck.
43:47
SPEAKER_02: You weren't stepping off a ledge because obviously you struggle.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you risk the the neck break.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: You struggle a little bit.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: String around.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: It is it is interesting to think of the different setups of all of it because I'm thinking back to Guy Fox who It was supposed to be hang drawn and quartered, but he just jumped because he was up on a ladder and he jumped off.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: So they probably have some sort of platform that doesn't allow them to kill themselves, you know.
44:11
SPEAKER_02: They probably learned from Fox.
44:12
SPEAKER_02: Like we've got to keep this a little bit more foolproof.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: They learn after every execution how to make it more awful.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: More awful with every execution.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: That is our motto.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: But every episode of ours just gets worse and worse.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: No, the end of this gets even more juicy.
44:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, but so once he is finally cut down from the rope, right, um, he is laid on a block.
44:36
SPEAKER_02: His head is officially severed.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: So at that point, he's gone.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: But what they do with the rest of his body.
44:43
SPEAKER_02: What do they do?
44:44
SPEAKER_02: They decide to lay his, I guess, torso, because head's gone, torso down, and they put a big incision in his chest and they take out his heart.
44:53
SPEAKER_02: They rip out his heart and they throw his heart into flames.
44:57
SPEAKER_02: So instead of him being alive for the whole like burning of the intestines things, which is a normal drawn and quartering, they, you know, take off his head first, so he's not alive for this, but then they take his heart out and put it in flames, which in all of our execution research I've never seen.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: No, it seems a little bit gruesome.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: A little bit Scottish of them one might say.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: Quite Scottish.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: It just seems uh odd why you would choose to do this.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: Take the heart.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the heart about?
45:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, also, the executioner didn't quite follow the sentence then because it said he was so yeah, hanged, and then his bowel's taken out and burnt before your face, and then your head should be severed from your body.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Hang drawn and quartering.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: That's the proper way.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: So I I was reading up a little bit about hang, drawn, and quartering, and different execution executioners who might have a little bit of s of sympathy for the prisoner, they might be the head first, behead them before disemboweling and cutting open.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: But the heart thing is weird.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: The heart was not a part of anything that Judge Bueller said.
45:59
SPEAKER_02: Maybe the executioner realized he did it wrong and he's like, Oh shit, I gotta show him something.
46:05
SPEAKER_02: How do I feel like what have they not seen before that I can kind of the head offers?
46:10
SPEAKER_00: He's like, oh, no.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, hmm.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I forgot that was last.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: That was that was supposed to be the last.
46:19
SPEAKER_02: You didn't read his manual correctly, he got things a little bit out of order.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: He turns his notes over, he's like, oh.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: Um the whole audience goes, oh.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: And he's like, but wait, there's more.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah! And then you can just hear the oh, it's so gross.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: What shall I remove from the torso?
46:37
SPEAKER_00: And then like heart, heart, heart.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: There was 80,000 people there at the execution, too.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: So it was quite a display.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: That's how it went down.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: I do have some info on the executioner.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, tell me.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: His name was Edward Dennis.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: You used to sound so modern.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: Like Roger and Dennis, Steven, all hanging out in the 1700s.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
46:59
SPEAKER_02: I love really quick.
47:00
SPEAKER_02: We didn't even say Ratcliffe.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: Get it?
47:02
SPEAKER_02: Pocahontas, Ratcliffe, Governor Ratcliffe.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: I didn't even.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you did.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking of Ratty from the stupid movie I just referenced, The Toad.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh, uh Mr.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: Toad?
47:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but isn't there like Rat the Rat?
47:15
SPEAKER_00: The water rat.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: Mr.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: Rat.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: Mr.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: Rat, sorry.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: Well, Ratcliffe though.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Legend.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: But in the trial, Ratcliffe was the one the good guy.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but he was the one like being interrogated on the sand.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: And so was Mr.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Rat and the Toad.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: So I like that we just keep calling it something different.
47:33
SPEAKER_02: The Toad.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: Mr.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: Toad.
47:35
SPEAKER_02: Many adventures of Winnie the Pooh and Mr.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: Toad.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: One of those.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: I should know that.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: I apologize to my Disney fans.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: The one.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: Who listened?
47:44
SPEAKER_02: The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr.
47:46
SPEAKER_02: Crane.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: And Mr.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: Toad's around.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I meant Ichabod and Mr.
47:50
SPEAKER_02: Toad.
47:50
SPEAKER_02: Damn it.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: Now, whatever.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: You guys get it.
47:53
SPEAKER_02: You know.
47:53
SPEAKER_02: Alright.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: Can I talk about the executioner?
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, please do.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: Edward Dennis.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: His weird name.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: He was the official executioner of London and Middlesex between 1771 and 1786.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: And the only thing that um made him retire was death.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: So he died on the job.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: He was responsible for 201 hangings.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: He was most well known.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, there was one day he had 20 hangings all in one day.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: So that was so kind of inflated his numbers a bit.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Was he actually a goat?
48:29
SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: One of the things he was most popular for, like most well known for, was the Gordon riots of 1780, which was just one year prior to all of this.
48:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:39
SPEAKER_00: He like became a part of the riots and he was put on trial.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: And they told he was saying, I got pulled into it with the rioters because they recognized me as the local hangman and they threatened me and whatever.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: So like I had to join them because they knew who I was.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, we've talked about you know what it's like to be an executioner before on this show.
49:01
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, he might be right.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: He might be.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: They believed him.
49:04
SPEAKER_00: They pardoned him only because they needed him to hang 19 people the next day.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all the people who supposedly like coerced him into being part of the riot.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's tough.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, they pardoned him so he could continue executing.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, anyways, that's Dennis.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: Good old Dennis, man.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: I like I like when you Megan tends to be the one to research the executioners more, and I always appreciate that.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: I like the executioners.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, I feel like they need a name in history.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: They're not that well known, and their name should live on.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: We should we should publish a small little pamphlet.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: I still haven't read that one book I I got on that one execute the executioner of Prague.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: I still I still have that.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: I just like in like old English, so I haven't read it.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: I have a bookcase here.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: There's a book up there that she gave me.
49:50
SPEAKER_02: I still need to read The Hangman's Daughter.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: Ooh, that's a good one.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: It's a series.
49:54
SPEAKER_02: It's like a 10-book series.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: I know.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: I have other shitty books I need to get through.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: You also have Marie Antoinette's head in there.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: I do.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: I gave you that too.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: Next time we'll do a little show in 10 years.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: I have good books.
50:06
SPEAKER_00: Um hey, so but after they took the heart out, sorry, you're you're cute.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: They scorched his body and then with his head, they put his body and his head in a quote handsome coffin.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: Handsome coffin.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: Handsome coffin.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: He was a gentleman, after all, with money.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: And then he was sent to the churchyard of St.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: Pancras.
50:26
SPEAKER_00: Pancras.
50:27
SPEAKER_00: Pancreas.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: Pancreas.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: Ew.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: And for those hard.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: For those curious.
50:33
SPEAKER_02: Because obviously this is taking time in the middle of the American Revolution and all of that.
50:37
SPEAKER_02: Oh them.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: The revolution doesn't end until 1783.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: Which is interesting because as Americans, most of us know, like, oh, 1775 is the big date.
50:48
SPEAKER_02: That's like the Declaration of Independence.
50:50
SPEAKER_02: But like, I think it's a misconception in America that like the war ended that day and we became America.
50:55
SPEAKER_02: Like the war didn't end for eight more years after that.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, if you've ever seen Hamilton, you know that.
51:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, now you know.
51:02
SPEAKER_02: But I'm the Battle of Yorktown.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: I'm saying, like, historically, you just that's not a thing that's ingrained into the American conscious.
51:08
SPEAKER_02: Like, if it's if you asked me before today, like when did the American Revolution end, would you be able to answer that?
51:13
SPEAKER_00: I say that was when Mel Mel Gibson rode out on his horse and he had the flag.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: Are you talking about Braveheart or Patriot?
51:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about the Patriot, not when he yells, Ah, freedom, which would also have been relevant.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but he just plays a rebellious.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: When he shows up and the music comes up and they all start like cheering for him.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: 1783 people.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: Um well the that I also had another surprise trivia question for you.
51:40
SPEAKER_02: Can you name the 13 colonies?
51:42
SPEAKER_02: I can try.
51:43
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I can, but you could try.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: So you tell me what you got.
51:47
SPEAKER_02: I don't think I know these either.
51:48
SPEAKER_02: So New York.
51:49
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Delaware, New Jersey.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: Everything's legal in New Jersey.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, hold on.
52:02
SPEAKER_00: Where am I?
52:03
SPEAKER_00: Connecticut.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: Virginia.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: Virginia.
52:05
SPEAKER_00: Connecticut.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: The Carolinas, I think.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: Was it North and South Carolina, or was there just like one Carolina?
52:12
SPEAKER_00: Let's just throw those in there because we need to.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: We need the numbers.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: We need three more.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: Um did we say West Virginia?
52:21
SPEAKER_00: That's cheating.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: Maryland.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: There's a map there.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: I just noticed.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: Maryland?
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Fine.
52:27
SPEAKER_00: Um Pennsylvania, probably.
52:29
SPEAKER_00: Pennsylvania, obviously.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: Now because I think we're over 13.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: Then we're at 12.
52:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then Washington, DC is a district.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that counts.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: No.
52:38
SPEAKER_01: There's probably another one.
52:42
SPEAKER_02: Did we say New Hampshire?
52:43
SPEAKER_00: I said New Hampshire.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: Maine wasn't a thing, yeah.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't think Maine was a thing.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't think Vermont was a thing.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: This is really boring.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't think people want to listen to us trying to name off all the stuff.
52:53
SPEAKER_02: It's trivia.
52:54
SPEAKER_02: I don't know it.
52:54
SPEAKER_02: Do you know it?
52:55
SPEAKER_02: If you know it.
52:56
SPEAKER_02: Hawaii.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
52:59
SPEAKER_02: Arizona, clearly.
53:02
SPEAKER_02: Arizona ghost towns.
53:03
SPEAKER_02: Um, Slovakia.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: What was your map?
53:06
SPEAKER_00: Slovenia.
53:07
SPEAKER_02: Slovenia, please.
53:08
SPEAKER_02: Somebody claim it.
53:09
SPEAKER_02: I will send it to you.
53:10
SPEAKER_02: We will sign it.
53:11
SPEAKER_02: We'll write you nice notes on the back.
53:13
SPEAKER_02: Just get rid of it.
53:14
SPEAKER_02: I try to give it to Megan, she doesn't even want it.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: It just keeps coming back up.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh, anywho, well, that is our other Francois who was also hang-drawn and quartered.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: Was there other information about him we missed?
53:26
SPEAKER_00: Because I felt like we were going we did a good job, but we were like shuffling back and forth for it.
53:30
SPEAKER_02: Like I said, I mean he was a he was a spy.
53:32
SPEAKER_02: It was hard to get a lot of information.
53:34
SPEAKER_02: All we know is that he was well dressed, he was a man about town, and he had some henchmen trying to do his dirty work with delivering all this information back to France.
53:44
SPEAKER_02: But eventually he was caught.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: And he doesn't know how to make a good nickname for yourself.
53:49
SPEAKER_02: He doesn't know how to, you know, quite get the fake name you should operate under.
53:53
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, I would be curious as to the motivation as to why he would want to do this.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: We don't know a lot about that, right?
54:01
SPEAKER_00: We don't really know where he was coming from.
54:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: Was he getting rich from this?
54:05
SPEAKER_00: And it's probably money.
54:06
SPEAKER_00: Money's always the driver.
54:07
SPEAKER_02: Per like pure speculation, he speaks English.
54:12
SPEAKER_02: So he's probably from like a well-known French family.
54:15
SPEAKER_02: Like, probably good schools.
54:17
SPEAKER_02: The balints.
54:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like had some maybe like the Blints, had some like falling out with his family, which like you know, led him to England.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh, now you're just making a whole backstory for him.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: Why wouldn't he stay in France?
54:28
SPEAKER_01: He had an older brother who died of the measles.
54:31
SPEAKER_01: If he was from a good family in France, wouldn't you stay in France?
54:34
SPEAKER_01: I think he went to England to be a spy.
54:38
SPEAKER_01: I think someone sent there.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think because we knew that he lived on Bond Street for a year.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: They don't know about they assume that's when he first came to England.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: So I think someone over where is it, what's it called?
54:51
SPEAKER_00: Bouillon, France.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh bouillon.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: Bouillon Bouillonnaise.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: Close.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: Um she smells the French onion soup.
54:59
SPEAKER_00: She wants more.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: Smells good.
55:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think someone like hired him, was like, hey, if you want to do this, I'm gonna pay you pretty pretty good.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
55:07
SPEAKER_00: Because it's not like he had much of a history beyond that, like one year or something.
55:10
SPEAKER_00: I think he did it all for money.
55:11
SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't he?
55:11
SPEAKER_00: That's what we all do for.
55:12
SPEAKER_02: Or the clothes, he probably just liked the fashion they were given.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: Fancy clothes.
55:16
SPEAKER_02: It's like Sarah Jessica Parker.
55:18
SPEAKER_02: She's like, I like to have my money where I can see it.
55:21
SPEAKER_02: Hang it in my closet.
55:22
SPEAKER_02: That's what he said.
55:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh, Elizabeth.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for joining me in my home today, everyone.
55:31
SPEAKER_02: Next time we'll be back at Megan's and then we'll switch back to me.
55:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna switch around.
55:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna really work at editing these videos, but we don't make editing easy for ourselves because we screw up a lot.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
55:43
SPEAKER_00: Makes it authentic, I think.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: We'll just do the raw live version.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: That's what that's what we'll do.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: We'll do like a Patreon, and your the Patreon gets the live version of like the bathroom breaks and like you, oh yeah, the stuttering.
55:57
SPEAKER_02: Pay for the extra stuff and you'll see the bathroom breaks and everything.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: Sounds great.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of um, however you get your content, like us, follow us, whatever you do, leave comments.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, that's probably one of the most helpful things.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: We don't ask for a lot.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: There are podcasts out there who ask for your money every month and they want you to, you know, devote your time, energy, and resources.
56:23
SPEAKER_00: We ask of two things, actually, three things, possibly four.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know these.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, listen, listen, share with others, and like leave a review.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: Apple, iTunes is a great place to leave a review.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: Even if it's a short one, like you can just say, like, liked the episode on the French spy.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: Ideally, five stars, but I'm not mad about the four stars because four stars means like you can't you're not perfect, and no one should be perfect.
56:51
SPEAKER_02: We're definitely not.
56:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, now that you know that we're at the cutting edge of historical developments and we keep getting ahead of all these historians who talk about oh, Thomas Cromwell, and two two Anne Boleyn books, and oh Princess.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: The Princess Town, like we are clearly the hot topic of the times, and they're gonna start coming to us for her.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: They want their hands on these notebooks.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, you know how much these notebooks are worth?
57:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, I've had four.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: You've used the same one.
57:18
SPEAKER_00: This is the same.
57:19
SPEAKER_00: We're on year five because you write so damn small.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: I'd be a good French spy.
57:25
SPEAKER_02: Nobody would know what I wrote.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay, Elizabeth, any final words?
57:30
SPEAKER_00: Not today.