Latest / Beside Every Calling / Beside Every Calling | Episode 21: When Marriage Is Hard — Where Is the Line?

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Beside Every Calling | Episode 21: When Marriage Is Hard — Where Is the Line? · Beside Every Calling

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Every marriage has hard seasons, but how do you know when that hardness has crossed the line?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this episode of Beside Every Calling.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Debbie Daniels.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Jill Barber.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: And after watching Death of a Pastor's Wife, we knew this was a conversation that we had to have.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: So today we're interviewing interviewing Melissa Burns.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: She is a licensed marriage and family therapist in private practice, a coach for those in ministry, and a spiritual director, and has been deeply formed by the church.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: She is currently pursuing a master's degree in spiritual formation, holds a wide range of ministry and leadership experience, and then she knows the joys and the deep valleys that accompany life in the church.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Melissa, welcome to Beside Every Calling.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: So let's just kick this thing off, Melissa, and we'll just chat away here.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let me just ask you this: what makes marriage and ministry just so uniquely complicated?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that I see a lot in marriage, um, couple couples who are in ministry is that there's a lot of isolation.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um couples, you know, generally in the church feel more comfortable building community at church.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but ministry couples tend to hold boundaries around their personal lives for good reason.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so that can create a sense of isolation if they don't have trusted community outside of their local church body.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, many ministry couples relocate uh because they have a call to a new city or a new state.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this also contributes to the isolation and the lack of community.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so there can be an impact on their mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual health.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that can trickle down to have negative impacts on their marriage, their well-being, and their ministry.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And as Jill mentioned in the open, it was truly from watching the Netflix documentary series, um, Death of a Pastor's Spouse, that we, pastor's wife, that we both thought, ah, we have got to address what's a healthy marriage and what's not.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Jill and I, and probably you, Melissa, too, you're married, would say, man, marriage is hard at times, like really, really hard.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I would love us to talk about hard and when it crosses a boundary into abusive.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people think abuse has to leave scars.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I absolutely don't.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And my heart wishes that we could have helped this sweet young pastor's wife early on.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And my goal and Jill's goal in doing this episode is we hope to help someone in a situation like hers that doesn't feel seen or valued or doesn't know who to talk to.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just start with when marriage is hard, but what is that line or is there a specific space that we could talk about?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, that's considered abuse, and it would be okay to get help here.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: All marriages have challenges.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all couples go through kind of that like ebb and flow of hard times and good times in their relationships.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, that looks like lack of time, communication issues, financial struggles, loss, having kids, um, life transitions, um, illness, moving, just to name a few.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um one of the things that couples who are able to navigate these challenges well is having kind of an emotional safety and connection with each other, along with agency.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of is a scaffolding that helps them work through the challenges well.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, no marriage does this perfectly, but having like good self-awareness, empathy, humility, those kinds of things can help marriages move those through those hardships.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the difference though, in relationships where something has kind of become more unhealthy or serious, and and a huge red flag for me is when one partner feel feels fearful, um, or kind of more subtly that they don't like they don't have much of a voice in the relationship.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So like their agency is diminished or taken away.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and this usually is due to some form of power or control in the marriage.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe some examples would be like maybe you feel like regular put downs from your spouse in front of others, um, where you're made to feel kind of less than, um, or if there's controlling like financial or like financially isolating behavior, um, or even using scripture to justify wrong or unhealthy behavior.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there's the more obvious behaviors like threats, intimidation, violence.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of paying attention to your sense of agency in your marriage, your kind of ability to influence the marriage and have a voice is really important because fear has no place in marriage, whether it's a ministry marriage, a Christian marriage, or any marriage, um, really living in fear is not God's intention for marriage.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think those are kind of some things that stand out to me.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, Melissa, after I watched this Netflix documentary, I was just, I would just say enraged.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was just just kind of like where Debbie was talking about.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: I just wish I could have helped her and or helped somebody in that situation, especially her, uh, in so many different ways.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: However, uh, I I prayed about it and I posted a little thing on my social media, but one of the sweet ladies reached out to me privately and basically uh, you know, just said, you know, she grew up in a uh very strict uh home and a very strict church, uh, and basically knew that, you know, that where where that line was crossed in a marriage, what she learned was if there's beating or if there's cheating.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, those were the two things that maybe the church or her church or maybe even our church kind of doesn't say, but we do say, you know, that those are those are grounds to get out, you know, kind of thing or whatever.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I just think there's some more, or maybe let me ask you, are there more to uh definitions of abuse that maybe we should talk about?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And what I'm thinking about is like the spiritual abuse, like all of the scriptures being slammed at you, the emotional, like you were talking about, even even the sexual uh abuse that we learned in this particular situation.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just think there's more than cheating and the beating.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh for at least for a pastor's wife, uh, let me just say that, a woman, to kind of take notice of.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that something that you can help us understand a little bit?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think again, kind of going back to where where the someone is feeling like they don't have a voice in their relationship, that would be something where I would start to say, okay, I think we need to get some help here.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is that?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that that you don't feel like you have a voice anymore or that you feel like things are minimized or um neglect in the marriage, um, things like that, that would would um help you not feel feel like much less of like a partnership and more of like a power dynamic.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be um kind of a warning sign for me too.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think even we don't talk about it in the church much at all, but I think even as girlfriends, talk about your sexual relationship with your spouse is like tab, like no one really talks about it.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I always because you know, I've had friends say, Well, how many times a day is the right, or how many times a week?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, I don't know, everyone is so different.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, it feels like whatever you and your spouse agree on, like this is right, is right.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're feeling like they're asking for more of you or less of you than you feel comfortable with, that would be a red flag for me.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'd call it abuse, but definitely if they forced you to have sex and you didn't want to, that is absolutely abuse.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I just think you and your spouse have to work that out.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's no right answer for how many times a week or a day or a month or whatever.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, would you agree with that?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, uh, as we've all mentioned, marriage is hard by itself.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you when you just kind of, you know, it's not even standing beside each other.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Ministry is just like it just is part of your marriage, uh, especially when you are following that call and you've married someone with that call on their life.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when your marriage struggles and it's right in the middle of ministry, uh, I guess, I guess I just want to say, if anybody's listening and finds themselves there, you know, there's gonna be seasons where everything is just difficult.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes your marriage is going great and ministry is really hard.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes ministry is really hard and your marriage is really hard and everything's hard, you know, or and vice versa, the whole thing all the way around.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I guess I just want to say to those that are uh newly married and maybe newly in ministry to just pay attention.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that there are, you know, it's not like you're looking for the thing to jump out of your marriage.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not what I'm saying that at all.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying we have to find people that we can have our confidence in to talk to.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, in the documentary, that seemed to be a lot of church people uh for her.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, those are the ones she was around, right?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I'm not so sure those are the best people to go to.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, could you give us some guidance on maybe who are people that you could go to if you needed to talk about things, not maybe to quit your marriage, but maybe it is bad, but maybe it's just like who can I talk to about this?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think it's really important for ministry marriages to build a safety net wherever they are outside of the church.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whether that is um a friend group, whether that is other community within your community that's not in the church, um, therapists, um, spiritual directors, um uh family, um, people who you can trust, who you feel safe uh with, um, who you can share pretty much anything with.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's important to have that where you are, but sometimes that's not possible because you've just moved to a new location.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's really important just to kind of think ahead because pastors are giving out referrals to counselors.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Build your own referral system for yourself because you never know when you might need that.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I know again, we have listeners that are not a part of our denomination.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're part of the Nazarene denomination.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as my husband and I were talking about this yesterday on our prayer walk, we were just praying for some our own marriage, but also just other spouses um in situations that we know.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think it's important, and he brought it up too, it's important to get help early on.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is so key.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna talk about that, but also if you miss that boat and it's now you've got to just get out because you're listening and think, I need help.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: But early on, at least in the Nazarene denomination, we hold pastors accountable.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're having issues in your church and feel like your spouse is abusing you, you absolutely should go to your district superintendent or their spouse, and the pastor will be held accountable.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think that that's really awkward when you just think, man, is do we just have a bad marriage?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, every season, Scott and I would confess we've had seasons where we thought, well, I kind of hope he dies because it'd be easier, but oh, I hope she died.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we didn't do anything, we weren't abusive.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But marriage was hard, and we just thought, ah, how am I gonna work through this?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we did.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think the district level, Jill and you could help me because you were district superintendent, they do provide help and finances for our leaders that the first basis of man, it's gonna be so much easier to get it fixed early on than waiting two or three years into this, where it's become I've just got to get out of here.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can't speak for every district in the church of the Nazarene.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: However, uh, you do need to go to your district superintendent.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I know the fear in the Church of the Nazarene uh of thinking about that because you think, oh, okay, we're we pastor in Nazarene church, that's my husband's kind of boss, my accountability person for my husband.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: If I go to them and say, he's kind of doing this wacky stuff, or you know, or I'm feeling fear or something, you know, whatever, that's gonna put a bad light on him.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if that's and if what if she is uh staying home with the kids, that's their only source of income.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I understand the fear, I understand the roadblock of the mental of not going, but you have to push through that because every DS that I know uh for sure wants the best for you and the best for your husband.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if uh and the best for your church.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: So just know that.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um the devil's gonna stand on your shoulder and say, well, I can't go because my husband will get fired.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: We have no money, we'll have no food, you know, blah, blah, blah, the whole thing if that's the that case.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I understand the fear.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yes, I I know the district that we were uh serving on had a fund to help pastors for these kinds of reasons, if needed, uh, counseling and different things uh along the way.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe almost every district will probably have that.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And if they don't, I can promise you that DS has other people to go to to find money so uh to help your marriage.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I just kind of shout out out there to say, I know it's hard, I understand the fear, but you really do need to make that step.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: If you need to make that step and do it early, yeah.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the game changer for the future.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just but if you haven't gone early and you, like Debbie said, you know, things are bad and we've got we've I've got to do something right now, just go, just reach out to that's that DS or that DS spouse, whichever one you think is closest, would be easiest for you to talk to.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're they're willing and they're waiting, and they're good people, they're not trying to harm you or your spouse or the church.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So Melissa, would you add anything to help that person?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: The cipher, should I go get help or should I like that?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think I could hear that even in my own season of struggles.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, when is it okay to get help?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that paying attention to those questions, being curious about that for yourself, um, trusting your gut, um, your intuition, the Holy Spirit works through that.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then and find a safe person to talk to.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think, you know, again, knowing who's in your safety net before you need it is important.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I think I think even with therapy, the route you choose, if you if you decide to go that route, that can be tricky in some situations because um ministry couples are often known in the community.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you would likely want anonymity and privacy in getting help.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: But um, since since the pandemic, telehealth has become much more prevalent.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So chances are you can find a virtual therapist in your state that has like zero connection to your community.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to be concerned about like kind of walking into the counseling office in your community and seeing congregants.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you, you know, I think it's important to recognize that like you have a voice and you might need to use it.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, if there's an emergency situation, creating that safety plan um and getting to a safe place is important too.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think it's important that you have a Christian counselor, but even more than that, especially like how you deal a lot with couples in ministry, there's just it is so unique of a space, and that marriage is so unique compared to my friends that aren't married to ministry spouses or ministers.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: It is just, I can't even tell you.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it just feels like night and day difference.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Marriage is very kind of the same, but boy, this is really harder than a regular marriage, I think.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it is partially because you do want to protect, like in that documentary, she's trying to protect her congregation, should the church in general.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you don't want to see anything bad happen and you do love your spouse, you're just questioning what's okay and what's not okay.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I do want to say in the Church of the Nazarene, we absolutely want to hold our leaders accountable.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that again and again.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone is out watching, no, you don't, you're wrong.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: We absolutely do.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: We want to get them help and restoration, but we want the spouse to be 100% safe in that marriage also.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the church is only as healthy as its leaders, and it is work being healthy.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say that again, but we're not gonna shove it aside and say this doesn't matter because in the church, and I do want to address what do you do if you're part of a church that doesn't have the level of accountability?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have layers of accountability for our ministry.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Even my husband is accountable to an entire board that can hold our marriage accountable, and I think that's absolutely great.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So he just can't do what he wants.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it because I think the people in the pulpit, I want to trust them.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And to be in leadership within the church, you have to be an elder in the church, the Nazarene.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so again, we hold them accountable, but we also, I believe, have a lot of help to help you stay as healthy as you can.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: But Melissa, what would you say to the person that's maybe part of a local church that the pastor kind of in that documentary?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: You run the church, you handpick your board, isn't really accountable to anyone.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what do they do?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think don't be an island.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, definitely build that safety net for yourself.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, stay accountable to others in your community, whether that's local pastors um or people across the country, get some some coaching, get some um some other ways of of being accountable, um and and don't do it alone.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in that crazy documentary, I, you know, I was getting high blood pressure problems watching it.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, uh, you know, he would he would preach, or at least we smell snippets on the documentary, let me just say that, and mention different things, personal stuff from their marriage or just whatever his needs were.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: I would have killed my husband at the end of that message, or if he decided to do that.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I just I just want to say, I think there's like you said, trust your intuition.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: When you hear a pastor, any pastor that brings up I don't know, the same subject over and over and over again.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a red flag there, or just something that maybe he or she is dealing with.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you find that in what you're what who you deal with, or just your your marriage ministry couples, or I mean, I know you don't sit under all of their messages, but I'm just saying, I just I I just was appalled at what he was allowed to say out loud and not held accountable for it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I I don't listen to their messages, you know.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I know I know you don't.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I but I think I think looking for those patterns and those red flags would be would be important and to notice notice them and and pay attention and and do something when you need to.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's probably why your clients that you deal with.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I've been to a Christian counselor and I was really happy she didn't know my husband.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I wouldn't want someone that was listening to him in the pulpit to be my therapist, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: That that just would not feel right, especially a friend of his.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that would be really, really rough.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think finding that Christian therapist, but especially someone that deals with ministry couples is key.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And also just when are those red flags that it's like time for you to get help.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: My guess is, and Melissa, you could tell me or Jill, it in your gut, you already know something is off.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I really wish I could tell someone.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Would you agree?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that think we we know before we know our bodies tell us.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's that that intuition I think the Lord put deep within us somehow to say something is not right here, or you know, you I felt that not in my in my marriage, but with dealing with other people throughout the years, just hearing their stories and picking up on stuff that I I could not describe, I could not articulate.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: But then later on, life proves me right of okay, there I knew there was just something not right here, um, whatever that was with that situation.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, we had years and years and years ago, we had uh we when we were young, um, we had another awesome young couple as friends.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: We had a we had a handful, there was a group of us, but one of the young couples, uh, she told me that the wife told me the husband was the pastor, uh, that he wanted her to call him Reverend or Pastor at home with their kids, so the kids would understand his role.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I was so young.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: That was my first probably uh take on something that say, what?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like I I I didn't have words.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean I can talk all the time, and I didn't have words to say.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: I was like that.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: I just kind of listened.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was I was shocked.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: And now I would say, uh no, you know, that's not right.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh can you talk to us a little bit about like maybe some.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody might be facing that.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: How I mean, I know we've talked about this a little bit on another episode, but what's your what's your take uh on on a pastor that wants his wife or kids to call him pastor or reverend at home?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I would question that.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um because he's he's he's the primary role at home is husband and father.
• 22:26
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we minister to our children, and that is our primary ministry, but his job is a pastor.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I always think one also, I'm gonna turn it a tiny bit, is also are you feeling love like Christ loved the church?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is silly, but even with Scott, sometimes I'll say, Man, I am not feeling like you're loving me like Christ loved the church.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of a joke between us, but it's like letting him know I am feeling really unseen right now, and you're taking care of every other church problem but mine.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I think Melissa, you could tell that might be unhealthy, but in my world, it feels healthy to be able to talk to my husband about it and say, This doesn't feel okay for me right now.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Would you agree?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yes.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: You that you can name that and that you can have influence in your marriage to say this is something's not right here and be able to talk about it, communicate it, and then be able to make changes.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's healthy.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we want to discuss a little bit, you guys.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about when your marriage just feels hard because most of the time it's not abusive, it's just hard.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: And Melissa's quite a bit younger than us, Jill.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but she probably, even in her younger married life, has had seasons that are just hard.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want people to think it's always great in marriage.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Marriage is like this, I think.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: For me and Scott, it's been like this.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I love when it's up here, but man, it's hard.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the commitment season when it's here.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just committed to you, is the way I'm doing this.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm in the world a lot.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I just can we just discuss that the ebb and flow of marriage, maybe so that some people listening also know that it's okay to have hard seasons.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think every marriage, like we said, has challenges and joys.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we we we ride the wave of the joys and we push through the challenges.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that is absolutely normal and and right.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, God is faithful in those seasons to us when things are hard and God celebrates with us when we have those joys and everything in between.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think one of the hard parts about that, and Sam and I have done the same roller coaster ride that we're talking about, uh, but uh I think it's even a little bit harder when you're struggling and you're the ministry couple because people, your shepherd, you're you're the ones you're shepherding, the flock doesn't always understand that you're human as well.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now, you know, it's not every it's not like they know you're a superhero or something, you know, whatever, but it really does when the when when the pastor gets up and talk it preaches from the word of God and the Holy Spirit moves, there's just something different about that person, right?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's I don't I don't know what to say.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I really can't articulate how they view us because I'm not the one viewing us, but it's just like they have some kind of well, you're called, you'll be okay, or you know, you're you're the pastor, you guys will be great.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: You got extra blessings, or you're you're gonna have whatever.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not true.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we actually have to work, and I don't want to diminish marriage on anybody else's front, but it really is a hard, hard work to have a very healthy ministry in the middle of uh a marriage, healthy marriage in the middle of ministry, uh, in all of that.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just like not that we have to do extra work, but you know, I just know because we I live it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't live outside of the ministry marriage world.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what that's like, but still it's a hard marriage, you know, to figure out.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: But still, I'm just like there, there's a view.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: So when those people, what I'm trying to say is when those people look at you like that, it's hard to say, oh, we're struggling right now, or can you pray for us?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Or can you, you know, all that kind of stuff, because then it's like, you know, the same thing about going to your DS.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: These people are wanting you to do this.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: They, you know, they look at it as a job to some extent, and or if they would understand it's the calling, you know, kind of thing.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so anyway, talk to us about the perspective of that, like maybe from the pews to the pulpit or whatever.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: What what does that how can we help people understand that pastors and their spouses are human and as well?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think um I think this this kind of leans into some of the question, the the conversation about like um protecting the like the integrity of the ministry, but but like you don't want to make you want to make sure that that doesn't become harmful.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think a little bit of that, and then I think um recognizing, I think, I think normalizing counseling um from the the pulpit.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think churches have you know different groups within the church.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like they've got, like I said, at the recovery groups, their grief share groups, the marriage enrichment kinds of things.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: We have we bring in, you know, marriage conferences and things like that.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think a lot of that is for the people, the congregants.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, however, I think it's also really important to normalize that from all ends, from the the DS, from the pulpit, from the board, um, and having having open conversation, as open as you feel comfortable, about how it's best to support the couple in ministry.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think you all named it, but there's like having funding for that.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's important.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, giving, giving time and space to help the the couple work on their marriage if they need to, whether that's getting away or having regular babysitting so they can go to counseling or just having fun and getting out, going out on dates to to enjoy each other.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think any of those things would be helpful.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you guys are more the experts in that though.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think for our denominational people listening for the denomination, it would be the district level.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of our universities, the NASDAQ universities, also have departments dedicated to the usually the church ministry, pastoral health, but it's usually the pastors focused and not the spouse.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think they would be open to that.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll put some of those details in the show notes also.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I just wanna want to know how what's the best way we should close.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think we need to talk to the spouse out there questioning is my is my marriage is this abusive or not abusive?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I I don't want her to feel like she has to keep staying in a place where it is emotionally abusive.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: So could we just I don't it doesn't have to be the last question, but it wherever it lands.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: But let's have a I don't know, Melissa, is there a clear line for her listening that says, yeah, this is the space.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to get help and call it abusive.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think if if you have questions, if you hear that that voice inside of the Holy Spirit that says something is not right, whatever that is, I would say that gives you permission to go and find some help.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's even just reaching out to a friend, or if you know it's something that's not okay for sure, for sure.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because sometimes it does feel like there's there's a gray area there, um, then you can call the domestic violence hotline.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can find a therapist, you can reach out to your DS, reach out to anyone you trust.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think, but don't stay um in, don't stay stagnant in that place.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do something and feel free to know that there are so many people out there who can support you in that and that there's hope and there's help and there's safety for you.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and sometimes one of the spouses might be unwilling to get help, but even if it's just you in your marriage that that takes that first step to reach out to a safe friend or or someone you trust, um, that's enough to help you begin on the path toward healing.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you don't have to go through really hard stuff alone.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think, you know, again, there's lots of resources out there for people who have walked through similar things and have come out on the other end, um, still used by God, still loved, still cared for, and more whole.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and your marriage might need some deep, deep work.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in some situations, your life might wind up looking very different than you hoped or expected.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: But the hope and the trust is that God will continue to write your story.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Your story is not over.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's some great words to end on.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I just, Melissa, you have poured into us, and I know poured into all the listeners as well, and especially those that may need it right now in their season uh or in their decision making.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um, we just trust that the Holy Spirit will give them that distinction, that discernment uh of what to do or whom to talk to and and all of that.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we thank you for your time and and your and your expertise, uh, all that you're doing and helping ministry couples and families.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you are doing more than you know, and we are we are thankful for you.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And to our listeners, thank you for listening to what really is a hard topic to discuss.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and even for us, you know, Jill and I have been married 36 years each, and it's still hard.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, Melissa, we really do thank you.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in the show notes, we will leave some tools, uh, places you could possibly reach out to and contact.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you are not alone, and that's really what we want to hear.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you matter, you matter, and so reach out, and again, thank you for listening to what really has been a difficult episode of Beside Every Calling.