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Stevie Nicks In 50 Songs From Music Historian Annie Zaleski · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: The podcast network is called ero dot net a r
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  Speaker 1: r oe dot net. It's twenty different podcasts to choose from.
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  Speaker 1: One of the biggest ones is podcrashing. I talk with
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  Speaker 1: podcasters all over the world. Not only are you going
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  Speaker 1: to learn inside, behind the scene things about their podcast,
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  Speaker 1: but you're going to learn something about doing a podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we cover it all podcrashing only on ero
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  Speaker 1: dot net a r r oe dot net. Enjoy that exploration.
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  Speaker 1: I love what you do with your writing, Annie, because
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  Speaker 1: you're not afraid to take on the superstars of the superstars,
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  Speaker 1: the best of the best. I mean, the last time
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  Speaker 1: that we shared a conversation was with Taylor Swift, and
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  Speaker 1: when I saw that you were doing Stevie Nicks, I
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  Speaker 1: was like, She's the only one I trust. You are
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  Speaker 1: the only one I trust to be able to share
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  Speaker 1: a story like this.
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  Speaker 2: That is a very high bar. I'm glad.
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  Speaker 3: I hope, I hope I did not betray that trust.
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  Speaker 1: You didn't And it's and the thing is is that
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  Speaker 1: you give us that opportunity to look beyond on what
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  Speaker 1: we think we know. And you know, when when you
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  Speaker 1: get your hands on your book, you're going I really
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  Speaker 1: don't know that much, but I'm going to after I've
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  Speaker 1: been with Annie.
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  Speaker 3: I appreciate that because I put in a lot of
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  Speaker 3: research and a lot of hard work in all of
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  Speaker 3: these books to try to put together something that, you know,
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  Speaker 3: maybe people haven't read before, or might give people new
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  Speaker 3: insights into artists that they think they know or artists
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  Speaker 3: that are, you know, very famous.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about the very first woman to
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  Speaker 1: have two different positions at the Rock and Roll Hall
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  Speaker 1: of Fame. It's like, what took people so long?
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  Speaker 3: I know exactly, I mean it it was her and
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  Speaker 3: Tina Turner ended up being the first two women, and
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  Speaker 3: it's like, you know, it doesn't really get much better
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  Speaker 3: than that, because it's true. You know, Stevie's solo work
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  Speaker 3: is also so influential, just as Fleetwood Mac's work is,
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  Speaker 3: and you know, in slightly different ways, and obviously they're intertwined,
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  Speaker 3: but absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: And what did you learn when you dove into these
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  Speaker 1: fifty songs? Because I mean, there's so much of her
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  Speaker 1: person life. She was doing the Taylor Swift before Taylor
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  Speaker 1: Swift was doing the Taylor Swift. Because if you listen
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  Speaker 1: to rumors, oh my god, if you listen to rumors.
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  Speaker 2: You know exactly what was going on in the band,
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  Speaker 2: you know.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly who is mad at whom, you know what people
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  Speaker 3: are kind of getting their revenge for. I mean, it's
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  Speaker 3: such a it's a it's a conversation that it's like
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  Speaker 3: you're eavesdropping on a really kind of contentious conversation. You know,
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  Speaker 3: you just you know, you can't help yourself. It's like gossiping.
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  Speaker 1: As we jump into this, you got to know, I
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  Speaker 1: have never seen Stevie Nicks in concert. I don't want
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  Speaker 1: to because of my relationship with the album rumors. I
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  Speaker 1: was so blown away. It was my Beatles moment that
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  Speaker 1: I just fear that I'm going to lose that one
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  Speaker 1: thing I've got with with my childhood.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I understand that I have some artists like
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  Speaker 3: that where I'm like, you know, I've either seen a
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  Speaker 3: good show by them or I've never seen them, and
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  Speaker 3: I just want to preserve that memory of them, you know.
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  Speaker 3: And I think what's nice about her life is that
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  Speaker 3: she covers stuff from rumors. Obviously that you would know,
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  Speaker 3: but she has you know, some of her solo works,
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  Speaker 3: she has some kind of rarities. Does the occasional cover
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  Speaker 3: you know, it's a really it's a show that really
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  Speaker 3: shows off her entire life, which is cool.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So when you dove into those fifty songs, did
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  Speaker 1: you learn something new about Stevie that changed you?
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  Speaker 3: You know, there were a couple of things, you know,
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  Speaker 3: just in terms of her inspirations, you know, because there's
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  Speaker 3: some of these songs you know that I've heard about
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  Speaker 3: forever and ever and ever, and you know, like, for example,
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  Speaker 3: the white Wing Dove that you know, apparently she saw
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  Speaker 3: that on an airplane menu a like, and that, like
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  Speaker 3: with the Cactus, was like okay. The fact that she
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  Speaker 3: was such a huge Joni Mitchell fan also really struck me.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 3: She really talked a lot about how much Jonie's music
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  Speaker 3: meant to her, especially when she was kind of a
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  Speaker 3: younger artist coming up, and you know, I think on
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  Speaker 3: some level I knew that, but really like seeing you
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  Speaker 3: know that she covered her with like Buckingham Nix and
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  Speaker 3: you know that all of that stuff. Really you know
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  Speaker 3: that she really found solace in Joni.
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  Speaker 2: I love that.
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  Speaker 3: I think that really that makes a lot of sense
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  Speaker 3: to me, and I thought was really meaningful.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I've always thought that Stevie Nicks can she writes
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  Speaker 1: her music through her eyes. In other words, what she
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  Speaker 1: sees she's going to bring to life, which is the
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  Speaker 1: very reason why I just had a conversation with john
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  Speaker 1: Ford Coley from England. Dan and john Ford Coley, and
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  Speaker 1: we spoke about how I'm burying writing instruments in the
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: soil because I want future writers to find him. And
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  Speaker 1: I said that would make a great song. And then
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  Speaker 1: now I'm thinking, you know what, I should have had
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  Speaker 1: that talk with Stevie Nicks, because she would see a
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  Speaker 1: writing instrument in the dirt and go, we're writing a
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  Speaker 1: song about this.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and it would be like a pen, you know,
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  Speaker 3: a calligraphy pen.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, and there would be you know, ribbons coming out
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  Speaker 2: of it, like absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Annie Celeski about
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  Speaker 1: Stevie Nicks, the name of the book Stevie Nicks in
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  Speaker 1: fifty Songs. We are back with music historian Annie Zeleski.
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  Speaker 1: So gold Dust Woman. I am very protective of that song,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna tell you it probably brings out the
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  Speaker 1: old man in me. When I see somebody that's talking
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  Speaker 1: about gold Dust Woman, I get very protective. It's the
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  Speaker 1: I should have could have would have become a hit,
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  Speaker 1: but they didn't release it as a single. What's the
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  Speaker 1: story on this?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, the you know, I mean the idea is,
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  Speaker 3: you know, at least part of the inspiration interesting enough.
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  Speaker 3: And this is actually something I learned was as she
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  Speaker 3: put it, and this is very un PC when that
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  Speaker 3: happened today was groupie type ladies.
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  Speaker 2: She told an interviewer that, you know.
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  Speaker 3: That was basically you know, women who you know would
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  Speaker 3: kind of give her and Christine mcview the stink eye
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  Speaker 3: and then would be like all smiles when a guy
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  Speaker 3: came over, is what she kind of said, you know,
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  Speaker 3: but she basically it was like you know, but she said,
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  Speaker 3: it wasn't completely about that, you know, a little bit
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  Speaker 3: of you know, drugs, a little bit of a kind
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  Speaker 3: of an evil. It was kind of a persona almost
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  Speaker 3: you know, the gold you know, she is really good
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  Speaker 3: at writing character songs. It's like Rhiannon kind of says,
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  Speaker 3: and the gold Dust Woman, I think is kind of
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  Speaker 3: a composite of, you know, all the things she was
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  Speaker 3: kind of seeing and going through. But yeah, the fact
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  Speaker 3: that this wasn't a single, you can kind of see why,
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  Speaker 3: because it's definitely an epic and you know, it's definitely
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  Speaker 3: one of those songs you can't you know, editing it
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  Speaker 3: down would lose a little bit of the luster. You know,
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  Speaker 3: there are edits of it, you know. But that also
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  Speaker 3: just shows how strong rumors was that that wasn't a single.
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  Speaker 3: There were just so many good songs on that album.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you're right about her music being a character, because
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  Speaker 1: I always thought of her as being that character. And
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  Speaker 1: and you know, she stepped into those roles because I've
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  Speaker 1: always believed that Stevie Nicks when she's sitting at home,
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  Speaker 1: she's in her jammy bottoms and she's sipping on tea.
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  Speaker 1: I don't see her as the person that's up on
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  Speaker 1: that stage that we're just so in love with.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, but it's silk pajamas. It's absolutely like the
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  Speaker 3: razing silk pajamas. Maybe they're kind of like, you know,
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  Speaker 3: like a sweatshirt that's like, you know, velore luxurious materials,
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  Speaker 3: and it's like the most comfortable couch you've ever seen,
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  Speaker 3: couches that we can't even imagine.
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  Speaker 2: That's that's what I imagine steveee doing at home.
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  Speaker 1: Did you learn how to breathe like Stevie Nicks when
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  Speaker 1: you stepped into this project, because it's all about pacing.
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  Speaker 3: It is. That's very true, and that's a really great
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  Speaker 3: observation about hers, and you know, and that was, honestly
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  Speaker 3: one of the challenges was, you know, I knew that
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  Speaker 3: I had a certain amount of pages and a certain
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  Speaker 3: amount of words, and so trying to figure out how
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  Speaker 3: all of these songs kind of fit together, Which songs
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  Speaker 3: needed more text, which songs needed less, Which little points
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  Speaker 3: needed to be made to make different songs be understandable.
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  Speaker 2: So it was it was a challenge.
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  Speaker 3: It was a little bit of a puzzle in a
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  Speaker 3: way to do that. But you know, I'm happy with
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  Speaker 3: how it turned out because I feel like we hit
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  Speaker 3: all the high points.
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  Speaker 2: Well.
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  Speaker 1: You could tell that, you know, that they had a
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  Speaker 1: relationship in some way or form with with anybody in
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  Speaker 1: the band, because I did watch all the videos, of
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  Speaker 1: course I did. I did see them on Don Kirshner's
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  Speaker 1: rock concert. And the thing is, though, is the way
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  Speaker 1: that Stevie would use her eyes. And I think I
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  Speaker 1: said this in the beginning, that she speaks with her
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  Speaker 1: eyes and the songs come to her through her eyes.
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  Speaker 1: I feel it when I when I saw them on TV,
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  Speaker 1: and that's just it.
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  Speaker 3: You know, she has such an intensity on stage and
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  Speaker 3: is so incredibly charismatic. And that's part of the reason
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  Speaker 3: why she became such a star is that obviously everyone
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  Speaker 3: in Fleetwood Mac had charisma. I mean, there's a reason
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  Speaker 3: why the band became so popular because everybody had such
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  Speaker 3: amazing talent. But there was just something about her that
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  Speaker 3: when she got on stage, any of her kind of
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  Speaker 3: privateness or shyness really dissipated and she really kind of
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  Speaker 3: turned into Stevie Nicks the rock star.
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  Speaker 2: It's really remarkable.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me ask you a personal question, and I
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  Speaker 1: hope I don't cross the line here, but why isn't
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  Speaker 1: Stevie Nicks looked upon as being one of the greatest
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  Speaker 1: frontman of all time? Because the thing about or is
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  Speaker 1: it because she is Stevie Nicks And we don't use
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  Speaker 1: the word frontman around Stevie Nicks, But yet she led
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  Speaker 1: the band in her career.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, and you look at her now, you know,
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  Speaker 3: like I said, headlining stadiums. You know, she is absolutely
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  Speaker 3: leading the band.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 3: I think it's because you know, I mean, first off,
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  Speaker 3: when you're in a band with five people. It can
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  Speaker 3: be hard sometimes for people to figure out who to
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  Speaker 3: focus on, right and so I think that was part
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  Speaker 3: of it, because there were so many, you know, big
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: personalities in the band. You know, the fact that she
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  Speaker 3: didn't necessarily position herself as the front person. You know,
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  Speaker 3: I think, you know, when she went solo, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it was very obvious she was in charge of things.
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  Speaker 3: But you know, in some of the other you know
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  Speaker 3: band it was you know, she was you know, but
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  Speaker 3: I think she wanted to share the spotlight.
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  Speaker 2: There's that too.
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  Speaker 3: You know, she had utmost respect for Christine McVie and
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  Speaker 3: her songwriting. So Christine took this center stage. So I
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  Speaker 3: think she was okay with sort of how you know
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  Speaker 3: things kind of you know, unfolded there.
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  Speaker 1: Well see, I felt that during her first solo album.
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  Speaker 1: I remember being in Lewistown, Montana, and it was like,
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  Speaker 1: my girl, Stevie Nicks is away from Fleetwood Mac. First
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  Speaker 1: of all, I'm pissed off. Second of all, it was
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  Speaker 1: like this better be good. And look what she gave us.
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  Speaker 1: She gave us Tom Petty, she gave us Don Henley,
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  Speaker 1: she gave us all of these songs like going, I
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  Speaker 1: Haven't Gone away. I'm just exploring and I want you
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  Speaker 1: to go with me.
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  Speaker 3: That's exactly it, you know, And that's you know, and
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  Speaker 3: I think I always see that as she was really
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  Speaker 3: called to you know, she had these songs, she was
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  Speaker 3: really called to perform on her own in her own
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  Speaker 3: way and really kind of you know, spread her wings
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  Speaker 3: in a sense, and you know, try out some new things.
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  Speaker 2: And she brought that back to Fleetwood Mac.
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  Speaker 3: And I think that really, you know, you know, even
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  Speaker 3: though that you know, Fleetwood Mac's music was very separate
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  Speaker 3: from what she was doing, you know, it was all
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  Speaker 3: on a continuum.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 1: You kind of hit something with gold Dust Woman where
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: girls didn't want to really kind of look in at
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: them as being women. And yet I used the inside
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: sleeve of that Rumors album as being a conversation starter
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: because they didn't want to see Stevie Nick, they didn't
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: want to see Christine mcviee. What they wanted is they
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  Speaker 1: wanted to know the music, play the song, Please don't
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: tell me about the people in the band. And it's like,
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  Speaker 1: how do we get over a hump like that when
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: these two unbelievably beautiful women are writing songs that were
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  Speaker 1: all singing.
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  Speaker 3: I know, it's wild to think about. And you know,
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: when you think about I think rumors is turning fifty
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: like next year, which is just wild to think about
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: because it was such a different time and it was
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  Speaker 3: just such a you know, if the Fleetwood Mac first
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  Speaker 3: record that Stevie and Lindsay did, you know, it was
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  Speaker 3: definitely a success. And then when you looked at kind
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: of what they were coming out with, then you know,
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  Speaker 3: I think expectations were high, but no one could have
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: anticipated it become that huge. And so I think so
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: much when you look at like the packaging and the songs,
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: you know, in hindsight, you know they didn't know what
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: they were going to be getting themselves into.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: It's wild.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Did you sit down with kN Klea, because I've been
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: with him three times. Oh my god, that guy can
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: tell you every story how everything just folded into place,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: and it was such a blessing to hear, you know,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: the behind the scenes. Fleetwood Mac.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I've interviewed Ken before and he's wonderful. He's and
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: he has you know, he was the one. He remembers
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: everything too. That's it's even better. He was there and
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: you know, he was the smart one that was soaking
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: it all in and so later he could, you know,
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: kind of fill in the blanks for people who didn't remember.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: So now let's talk about that song, Landslide. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I want to talk about Stevie and Fleetwood max version,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: not not the Dixie Chicks. And the thing is is
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: that I'm so shocked that she says it's dedicated to
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: her father, and yet so many brides and grooms use
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: it as their first dance. And I've always held that
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: close to my heart because I'm going She clearly states
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: it is for her father, but you're using it as
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: your first dance? What what is the story behind that?
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  Speaker 3: So it's interesting that this is a really great example of,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: you know, a song where there are many stories behind it.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: One of the things I realized writing this book is
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: that Stevie had like different she told different versions of
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: different stories to different interviewer. So Landslide, you know, she
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: wrote in an Aspen, Colorado, and it was not at
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: a great time in her career. You know, they buckingham
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: Nix was not happening. Lindsay was going on tour, she
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: had very little money, you know, to her name, and
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: she was like, I'm tired. You know, she was trying
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: to give music a go. But she looked out the
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: window where they were staying in the living room and
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: saw these mountains, and you know, I love this quote
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: she said, you know, during that two months in Aspen,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: I made a decision to continue. Landslide was the decision.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm sure can do it. And so it's hope,
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: you know, And I mean she her parents were always
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: really really supportive too. I mean I think that's the
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: other thing is that you know, when she was writing
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: and like, you know, really trying to make things work,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: they gave her leeway. You know, at some point they said,
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: all right, you got to give a little bit of go.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: Then you got to come back and finish college. But
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: they really supported her artistic efforts over the years. Definitely,
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: her dad has come into that play as well.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: You talk about Stevie Nixt being up there in Aspen.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, did she work out and create with with
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Dan Fogelberg and John Denver? I mean that was their country.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: I mean did she did she open herself up or
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: open that door?
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: You know, I feel like Dan might have been it
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: was either still in Illinois or might have been in
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: La at that point, because if we're talking, this was
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: like I think seventy four. Yeah, so seventy four is
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: kind of when it started, and so I'm trying to
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: I think I think Dan had sort of you know,
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: met Irving and gone out west at that point. I'd
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: have to double check my dates.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: What song shot to you the most, only because I mean,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: we're all going to have our interpretation out here, and
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: we're either going to agree with you or we're gonna go,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: oh my god.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: Any I mean, you know, it's funny seeing Edge of
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: seventeen has a lot of different layers to it, you know,
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: in terms of you know that the title came from
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: she misheard Tom Petty's then wife, you know, saying at
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: the age of seventeen. You know, during that time she
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: was writing it, you know, John Lennon died and and
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: she also had an uncle passed away, and so like
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: there were a lot of like really like interesting sort
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: of influences that came in that you wouldn't necessarily know. So,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that was the biggest challenge of
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: the book, was trying to kind of get all these
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: different stories and acknowledge all of these conflicting emotions, you know,
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: it dependent even though that there were you know, trying
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: to figure out what the truth might be.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: See, that's one of those situations where we all have
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: our own interpretations. Because I always assumed that it was
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: associated with with Ian. I figured that, you know, that
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: it was it was just showing her respect for her
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: song lyrics and things.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And you know what.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: And I would not surprise me if at some point
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Stevie was like, yeah, that was also on my mind,
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: you know, because I think that makes perfect sense.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, hey, Harold, I'm sorry we got to wrap.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Oh I thought we had twenty. Oh my god, Annie,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: my god. I have the greatest time with you because
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: you tell it straight. Please have a blessed day, and
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: please keep doing what you're doing.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Thank you so much. It's always great chatting.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: You'd be brilliant today. Okay, I'll try. Okay, thank you.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I hate to cut you arrow because you're so interested.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: I thought I had twenty. I'm sorry. You know me,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I would take fifty if I knew I only had twenty.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: I know who could do with no problem. Have fun
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: you guys later. Era