Latest / UK Column Radio / He Is 'not A UN Soldier' - A Proud Father Speaks Out For His Son

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He Is 'not A UN Soldier' - A Proud Father Speaks Out For His Son · UK Column Radio

0:07
Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to another UK Column interview by yours truly,
0:11
Speaker 1: mirk Anderson, US correspondent for UK Column. And today we've
0:17
Speaker 1: got a very interesting interview, something off the beaten path,
0:21
Speaker 1: and it's involving the New Family of Texas and I'm
0:26
Speaker 1: interviewing today Daniel Knew, the father of Michael New, the
0:31
Speaker 1: former army soldier who in the mid nineties made quite
0:35
Speaker 1: a name for himself and really caused a stir in
0:38
Speaker 1: governmental circles when he refused to wear the UN blue.
0:43
Speaker 1: And it kind of rolls off your tongue. Michael Knew
0:45
Speaker 1: refused to wear the UN blue, and the blue refers
0:49
Speaker 1: to the UN insignia such as berets and shoulder patches.
0:54
Speaker 1: And the meaning of this runs very deep in a
0:58
Speaker 1: world where we're looking at that kind of a battle
1:01
Speaker 1: between America first, nationalistic philosophies and internationalism. And one of
1:07
Speaker 1: the pinnacles of internationalism in terms of institutions is the
1:11
Speaker 1: United Nations, and we still stand at something of a crossroads.
1:16
Speaker 1: Is the purpose of the military forces of any given nation,
1:20
Speaker 1: in this case the United States, Is that purpose to
1:23
Speaker 1: defend that nation and its constitution? Or is it something
1:27
Speaker 1: of a more nefarious nature, and Michael New's experiences as
1:33
Speaker 1: a young soldier in the nineties really shed a lot
1:36
Speaker 1: of light on that fundamental question. And his father, Daniel Knew,
1:40
Speaker 1: is my guest today. Daniel, thanks for being with me.
1:43
Speaker 2: Thank you, Mark, so good to be here. I appreciate it.
1:47
Speaker 1: I can say with total accuracy, of course, that in
1:50
Speaker 1: October nineteen ninety five, when Michael Knew your son showed
1:56
Speaker 1: up for formation at a US US Army base in
2:00
Speaker 1: Germany and there was about to be a deployment to Macedonia,
2:05
Speaker 1: he was the only one wearing US Army green while
2:09
Speaker 1: the others obeyed the arbitrary order and showed up in
2:13
Speaker 1: their UN blue. And a lot of things led up
2:17
Speaker 1: to that. Your son, Michael had already gotten wind that
2:22
Speaker 1: his unit was going to be part of a UN
2:24
Speaker 1: mission and that they were no longer directly representing the
2:29
Speaker 1: US government and they would be under a foreign commander,
2:32
Speaker 1: and that had already surfaced, and he was already balking
2:36
Speaker 1: at that, and then it kind of culminated in that
2:39
Speaker 1: day when he showed up wearing the Army green while
2:42
Speaker 1: the others wore the blue. In October of nineteen ninety five,
2:46
Speaker 1: so that means twenty twenty five will be the thirtieth
2:49
Speaker 1: anniversary of that very pivotal move by your son. So
2:54
Speaker 1: describe for us, Daniel a little bit about Michael's upbringing
2:59
Speaker 1: and the formation of his character and what he learned
3:04
Speaker 1: growing up and what led to all this. Let's start there.
3:09
Speaker 2: Boy, you called me off guard. I was ready to
3:11
Speaker 2: go in another direction. His upbringing was, well, he grew
3:16
Speaker 2: up in a middle class family. Let's start off with that.
3:19
Speaker 2: There's a popular line these days. And we were from
3:26
Speaker 2: early on. We were we homeschooled, not from the very first,
3:31
Speaker 2: but from early on, and I'm not sure that he
3:35
Speaker 2: ever attended a public school until high school. We did
3:39
Speaker 2: live in several other countries as we worked with a
3:43
Speaker 2: linguistic organization and doing linguistic research and whatnot. We lived
3:49
Speaker 2: in Papua New Guinea, so he had a year growing
3:52
Speaker 2: up there, which was fantastic for a seven eight year old,
3:56
Speaker 2: nine year old boy, and climbing coconut tree and chasing
4:02
Speaker 2: snakes and whatnot. We lived in New Zealand for a
4:05
Speaker 2: couple of years. We lived in the Philippines for three years.
4:09
Speaker 2: So he not only speaks pigeon English, He speaks English
4:14
Speaker 2: with a New Zealand accent when he wants to, and
4:17
Speaker 2: he speaks to gallog from the Philippines. I think one
4:21
Speaker 2: of the great advantages of homeschooling for US and for
4:24
Speaker 2: living in foreign countries is that kids get a whole
4:26
Speaker 2: different perspective on life rather than just what they get
4:29
Speaker 2: if they stay home and go to public schools. So
4:33
Speaker 2: he certainly had wider exposure to cultural experiences and linguistic
4:40
Speaker 2: experiences as well, and I think he could think for
4:44
Speaker 2: himself maybe a little bit more than just government schooling provinces.
4:49
Speaker 2: So you know, by the time he was in high school, though,
4:53
Speaker 2: the job opportunities weren't great for him. Some of the
4:56
Speaker 2: kids were not the best element in the world, and
4:58
Speaker 2: he decided, hey, you know, they want to join the
5:01
Speaker 2: army in and see the world. He joined the army.
5:07
Speaker 2: They sent him from Texas. They sent him to Fort Blysz,
5:10
Speaker 2: Texas that's out there by El Paso, and pretty bleak.
5:15
Speaker 2: Wasn't what he had in mind. There was next assignment.
5:18
Speaker 2: He was sent to Saudi Arabia, which he says is
5:21
Speaker 2: West Texas with camels. And next assignment was to Germany
5:27
Speaker 2: and they sent him to Germany, which he loved, and
5:31
Speaker 2: then the next assignment was Macedonia. He was told he
5:34
Speaker 2: was going to go there to be on it, and
5:36
Speaker 2: he was looking forward to it. It was a medic.
5:39
Speaker 2: By the end, he was a combat medic and had
5:42
Speaker 2: already saved two or three lives. And he was not
5:47
Speaker 2: in direct combat, but he was in you know, when
5:50
Speaker 2: you stepped when one of somebody steps on a mind
5:52
Speaker 2: that was left from the from the war, and you're there,
5:55
Speaker 2: then he you know, he qualifies. So many learned that
6:00
Speaker 2: he was going to have to wear not a blue
6:02
Speaker 2: uniform per se, but a blue beret or a blue helmet,
6:06
Speaker 2: a blue scarf, you know, and removing the United States
6:13
Speaker 2: flag from his right shoulder and putting it over on
6:16
Speaker 2: the left shoulder, putting on his right shoulder a un
6:21
Speaker 2: symbol or flag. This may not mean anything to you
6:26
Speaker 2: and me as civilians, but to anyone who can read
6:28
Speaker 2: a uniform, the right shoulder is the dominant shoulder, that's
6:33
Speaker 2: the commanding force. The left shoulder is a unit in
6:37
Speaker 2: the force that's controlled by the right shouldern. So it's
6:41
Speaker 2: a blatant statement that the United States is subject to
6:46
Speaker 2: the United Nations in this case in all actions in
6:50
Speaker 2: that uniform. So you know, his basic reaction was, look, guys,
6:54
Speaker 2: you know I didn't join the United Nations. I didn't
6:56
Speaker 2: join to be a mercenary. I have a contract with
7:00
Speaker 2: and I have an oath of allegiance to the United
7:03
Speaker 2: States of America and the Constitution, not to the President
7:07
Speaker 2: unlike other countries, not to the nation per se, but
7:12
Speaker 2: to the Constitution. And I don't think I want to
7:16
Speaker 2: do this. If you would like to give me a transfer,
7:18
Speaker 2: i'll take it. They denied him the transfer of force,
7:22
Speaker 2: and so he said, okay. They said, well, we will
7:26
Speaker 2: put you in prison if you do not wear this uniform.
7:30
Speaker 2: And he said, I can't keep you from doing that,
7:33
Speaker 2: but I sure can't keep you from putting a blue
7:35
Speaker 2: ad on my head. So that was sort of a stance,
7:38
Speaker 2: and the issue was joined until October of ninety five, when,
7:45
Speaker 2: like you described Mark, he showed up for a formation
7:48
Speaker 2: wearing a green camp instead of a blue camp.
7:51
Speaker 1: Very interesting, and with that, we're going to show a
7:54
Speaker 1: short video clip here that sort of sets the tone
7:58
Speaker 1: and explain means that the last person that defied an
8:02
Speaker 1: order in this basic manner was none other than General
8:06
Speaker 1: Douglas MacArthur, who was then relieved of his duty for
8:10
Speaker 1: not wanting to follow every cadence of the UN during
8:13
Speaker 1: the Korean War. And so imagine that from him all
8:17
Speaker 1: the way to a young Army medic. So we'll show
8:20
Speaker 1: this video clip briefly from the documentary Good Conduct the
8:25
Speaker 1: Story of Michael new which Daniel helped produce. So here's
8:28
Speaker 1: that clip.
8:29
Speaker 3: In nineteen cope, General Douglas MacArthur challenged United Nations rules
8:35
Speaker 3: of engagement in Korea. He believed they put American interests
8:39
Speaker 3: and American fighting men in unnecessary dangers. The historical record
8:46
Speaker 3: proves that MacArthur was right, but the dangers have increased
8:50
Speaker 3: with virtually no further opposition until now, forty four years later,
8:55
Speaker 3: another soldier is decisively questioning orders from Commander in Chief Clinton.
9:01
Speaker 3: This time, the president's opponent is not a famous general,
9:05
Speaker 3: but a young e four whose popular support is beginning
9:08
Speaker 3: to rival that of some movie stars and political candidates.
9:12
Speaker 3: T shirts and radio ballads celebrate the courage of the
9:16
Speaker 3: Army medic who stood alone to question the legality of
9:19
Speaker 3: an order to surrender his US military status to serve
9:23
Speaker 3: under UN command.
9:24
Speaker 1: A country just like Michael New.
9:27
Speaker 3: Was seeking neither celebrity status nor a confrontation with the President,
9:32
Speaker 3: but in simply attempting to honor his oath of duty,
9:36
Speaker 3: he has stumbled onto both and the administration's approach to
9:40
Speaker 3: the exploding Michael New controversy is the same as it
9:43
Speaker 3: was in Douglas MacArthur's day. Answer none of the questions
9:47
Speaker 3: and get rid of.
9:48
Speaker 1: The question anyway, Daniel, That clip really really shows a
9:55
Speaker 1: lot in a short amount of time. It sets the tone.
9:59
Speaker 1: Someone as prestigious and as revered as Douglas MacArthur didn't
10:05
Speaker 1: like the way the UN guided war in Korea was going.
10:09
Speaker 1: The UN had just been born in nineteen forty five
10:11
Speaker 1: in San Francisco. Here just a few years later, in
10:15
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, and it lasted for three years. Here comes
10:18
Speaker 1: the Korean War, the first UN war and the very
10:22
Speaker 1: first war not to be declared by our Congress. And
10:25
Speaker 1: we have not had a declared war ever since. That
10:29
Speaker 1: is very significant, you know much.
10:32
Speaker 2: Very few people realize this, but every soldier who was
10:35
Speaker 2: killed in the Korean War came home with the UN
10:39
Speaker 2: flag over his casket, whether he came back to the
10:41
Speaker 2: US or to Britain, or anywhere else. They did not
10:44
Speaker 2: die for country. They died for the global government, governance
10:48
Speaker 2: of the United Nations, and they were buried with UN honors.
10:53
Speaker 2: Now back when they got back home, they may have
10:55
Speaker 2: gotten American owners, but they came under a UN flag.
10:59
Speaker 1: You know, that is something that even I didn't realize.
11:02
Speaker 1: I consider myself reasonably well read. That's very disturbing. It
11:06
Speaker 1: seems they've backed down a little bit since then, and
11:10
Speaker 1: they're not quite as explicit about the UN's control of
11:14
Speaker 1: our military. And we'll get into that a little bit more.
11:17
Speaker 1: The UN Security Council, which is part of the UN government,
11:21
Speaker 1: and how they were involved in Desert Shield, Desert Storm,
11:25
Speaker 1: the US coalition that attacked Iraq in March of two
11:29
Speaker 1: thousand and three. There was UN involvement, very little congressional involvement.
11:34
Speaker 1: But one of the things that your son Michael established, Daniel,
11:40
Speaker 1: that's very very important, and it comports with what we're
11:43
Speaker 1: saying now, is that the UN is a government. It
11:47
Speaker 1: is a foreign government. It doesn't necessarily have a land
11:51
Speaker 1: mass per se. But the Rockefellers donated the land along
11:56
Speaker 1: the East River in New York City. The United Nations
11:59
Speaker 1: is its own principality, if you will, at that location
12:04
Speaker 1: United Nations, New York, not New York, New York. And
12:07
Speaker 1: so they have a beachhead but not a land mass.
12:10
Speaker 1: And it is a government. They always try and get
12:12
Speaker 1: away with saying it's inner governmental, it's purely a place
12:15
Speaker 1: where other governments meet, but that the UN is not
12:18
Speaker 1: a government itself. But your son helped establish that that's
12:22
Speaker 1: not true. It has a judiciary, a World Court. It
12:27
Speaker 1: has what amounts to a legislature, the General Assembly. It
12:31
Speaker 1: has a president, the Secretary General. It has the ability
12:36
Speaker 1: to tax, even though it technically may not have a
12:39
Speaker 1: explicit UN tax in place. Yet it has a military.
12:43
Speaker 1: It has a flag, and that's really important. It has
12:45
Speaker 1: a flag, and I think that's among others. That's one
12:49
Speaker 1: of Michael's great accomplishments is to in the process of
12:54
Speaker 1: balking at wearing the UN blue, he established that this
12:57
Speaker 1: is a foreign power, and in so doing he called
13:02
Speaker 1: attention to I, as a constitutional soldier of the US
13:06
Speaker 1: cannot arbitrarily serve a foreign power under a foreign commander.
13:10
Speaker 1: So the UN was thereby defined for what it really is.
13:14
Speaker 1: I think that's really important.
13:16
Speaker 2: Yes, you're absolutely right, and if you recalled back during
13:18
Speaker 2: the Serbian War when the United I'm sorry, when when
13:23
Speaker 2: NATO began to bomb the Serbs, the United Nations told
13:28
Speaker 2: them to stand down, and there was an argument for
13:32
Speaker 2: twenty four hours, and then they stood down. Because NATO
13:36
Speaker 2: is a regional military alliance as defined by the UN Charter,
13:42
Speaker 2: and it recognizes the United Nations as a first authority.
13:47
Speaker 2: So NATO is a UN organization. Indirectly, it's the dotted line,
13:54
Speaker 2: but it's nonetheless a line of authority. And each of
13:58
Speaker 2: these multinational organizations are governed by and controlled in the
14:03
Speaker 2: end by someone in the United Nations, for by some committee.
14:07
Speaker 2: And the only two things they don't really have so
14:10
Speaker 2: far is a direct taxation program, which cannot be enforced
14:14
Speaker 2: without a military or someone to back it up and
14:17
Speaker 2: collect the taxes. So this is why they, as Michael
14:21
Speaker 2: said in the video, you know, this is why they want.
14:23
Speaker 2: What they want to make meet is someone who can
14:27
Speaker 2: force the will of the United Nations on a nation
14:30
Speaker 2: that thought it was sovereign but suddenly finds out it's not.
14:34
Speaker 2: And look if they can deploy him, if they can
14:37
Speaker 2: deploy my son or your son in Macedonia against the
14:42
Speaker 2: people they can deploy them in Texas or in England
14:45
Speaker 2: or anywhere else. It's geography is not a defense. It's
14:49
Speaker 2: the principle of who has the power to take these
14:52
Speaker 2: soldiers and deploy them to achieve the United Nations atendom.
14:57
Speaker 1: Very interesting with that, We have w one other video
15:00
Speaker 1: clip to show, and the reason we're showing this is
15:03
Speaker 1: this clip a little bit longer from the documentary Good Conduct,
15:08
Speaker 1: shows Michael himself explaining some of this. Michael chose not
15:12
Speaker 1: to be directly interviewed today. He has moved on and
15:17
Speaker 1: elected not to do this, and so his father, Daniel
15:20
Speaker 1: is his spokesman. Anyway, here is that clip, and it
15:24
Speaker 1: partly features Michael, so people can see him more directly.
15:28
Speaker 1: We'll show some images later what he looks like nowadays,
15:31
Speaker 1: but let's go with this clip and then we'll go
15:33
Speaker 1: from there.
15:34
Speaker 3: News stood out in several ways, but it was especially
15:36
Speaker 3: evident that he had a well developed allegiance to uniquely
15:40
Speaker 3: American ideals. To news superiors both on and off the field,
15:45
Speaker 3: it was clear that Michael new held somewhat outdated views
15:49
Speaker 3: of duty, honor, and country, but these views made him
15:53
Speaker 3: a model soldier, and he was decorated for exemplary service.
15:59
Speaker 3: News legal ordeal began shortly after Independence Day nineteen ninety five,
16:04
Speaker 3: when he learned that his unit might be ordered to
16:06
Speaker 3: the Balkans compelled to go as mercenaries as U N
16:10
Speaker 3: personnel in U N uniforms under foreign command. Niu expressed
16:16
Speaker 3: his concerns about the legality of such orders and was
16:19
Speaker 3: at first ridiculed, then threatened to conform or face court martial.
16:24
Speaker 3: When Nu appeared unfazed by the threat of court martial,
16:28
Speaker 3: he was curtly advised to review u S constitutional law
16:32
Speaker 3: and the u N Charter. On September twenty one, nineteen
16:36
Speaker 3: ninety five, Nu respectfully submitted his findings and position to
16:41
Speaker 3: his superiors in writing, asking them in turn for written
16:45
Speaker 3: explanations so he could review the unusual order and strive
16:49
Speaker 3: to obey it. The only justification provided by the Army
16:53
Speaker 3: was of verbal briefing by an army lawyer designed to
16:56
Speaker 3: address concerns of News fellow soldiers. Immediately after the briefing,
17:02
Speaker 3: the commander gave the fateful order to Michael New and
17:04
Speaker 3: five hundred and fifty others. The battalion formation eight days
17:09
Speaker 3: later would be in un uniform.
17:12
Speaker 4: Our battalion was called in for an information briefing. This
17:16
Speaker 4: is a briefing on the legal basis for deployment and
17:19
Speaker 4: uh where the United Nations insignia. I understand ours are
17:24
Speaker 4: the only unit to have this before we deployed over there.
17:26
Speaker 4: That was probably doing part to me. But and during
17:31
Speaker 4: this briefing he just gave a h a broad overview
17:36
Speaker 4: of what, uh, what the army thought was legal justification,
17:39
Speaker 4: including things like the President says, so there, therefore it is.
17:47
Speaker 4: And when it came up to the question of why
17:48
Speaker 4: do we wear r United Nations insignia, his rather flippant
17:53
Speaker 4: answer was simply because they looked fabulous. And I didn't
17:58
Speaker 4: think that was very funny.
18:00
Speaker 1: Okay, that's also an interesting clip. Daniel. We were talking
18:05
Speaker 1: off the air about the legal issues and the legal
18:09
Speaker 1: ramifications of this, and one of the things you were
18:11
Speaker 1: telling me was that there's kind of a inherent rule
18:16
Speaker 1: in all of this that the parties in the lawsuit,
18:20
Speaker 1: that is, the court martial hearing that led to the
18:24
Speaker 1: discharge of Michael and you can give the details and
18:27
Speaker 1: the nature of the discharge, but the other parties on
18:32
Speaker 1: the prosecution side, the US government were not supposed to
18:35
Speaker 1: get involved and influence the case from behind the scenes.
18:40
Speaker 1: But you were telling me there were some forty violations
18:43
Speaker 1: of that rule. Let's go there. Let's walk along the
18:47
Speaker 1: legal landscape of the court martial hearing that eventually was
18:53
Speaker 1: visited upon your son, and let's go with that and
18:56
Speaker 1: describe some of that.
18:58
Speaker 2: Well, right as I understand that there is a anytime
19:02
Speaker 2: a court martial occurs, someone has to convene that that trial,
19:08
Speaker 2: and the convening authority, which is usually a ranking officer,
19:12
Speaker 2: fairly high officer, is the person who is in control
19:16
Speaker 2: of it from the beginning to the end. And undue
19:21
Speaker 2: command influence what you see I think they called they
19:26
Speaker 2: abbreviated is forbidden by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
19:31
Speaker 2: So if it doesn't matter if it's at a local base,
19:37
Speaker 2: or if it's a region, or if it's in a nation,
19:39
Speaker 2: wherever the theater is, that convening authority is the final
19:43
Speaker 2: authority on that court martial. And yet we found that
19:49
Speaker 2: the Department of Defense of the Pentagon sent over at
19:54
Speaker 2: least forty lawyers to get involved and to try to
19:58
Speaker 2: work this thing out. The amount of some of them
20:00
Speaker 2: might have been secretaries. But they came in as a
20:03
Speaker 2: group into into Germany and they were it was sort
20:06
Speaker 2: of a loose lips thing. We were told that by
20:09
Speaker 2: authorities at the airport. It said, oh, you guys must
20:12
Speaker 2: be with that whole group that's going to that big
20:14
Speaker 2: trial down at Swinefort. And they said, oh there are others. Yeah,
20:21
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of them are all here. And so
20:23
Speaker 2: they didn't realize that this was a defense, not the prosecution.
20:27
Speaker 2: But those guys had no They should have had no
20:30
Speaker 2: say and no involvement, but they did. And I think
20:35
Speaker 2: it's a small thing to balk at, but it just
20:37
Speaker 2: happens to be against the law. It's funny. They want
20:40
Speaker 2: to enforce the lawyery strictly when it comes to a soldier,
20:43
Speaker 2: but they ignored the law when they need to.
20:46
Speaker 1: Yes, when I said forty violations, I should have said
20:50
Speaker 1: some forty lawyers, right. I guess maybe there were one
20:53
Speaker 1: violation each sort of a figure of speech.
20:55
Speaker 2: There could have been could have been forty count.
21:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were definitely meddling in areas where they should
21:04
Speaker 1: not have been. And described a little more about the
21:09
Speaker 1: court martial trial. The attorney Ron Ray, who was in
21:13
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps for his career seemed to have done
21:16
Speaker 1: a pretty good job assessing the overall constitutional situation, the
21:21
Speaker 1: violations of the constitutional responsibilities and constitutional framework within this case.
21:30
Speaker 1: Of course, the judges ruling eventually was pretty shocking, where
21:36
Speaker 1: the jury within the court martial I understand there was
21:40
Speaker 1: a jury, was basically told that none of the evidence
21:45
Speaker 1: that Michael presented that backed up his case would even
21:49
Speaker 1: be allowed to be used and wouldn't even be recognized. So,
21:56
Speaker 1: from what I've gathered, the whole US government appors from
22:01
Speaker 1: the top down in this whole thing, was kind of
22:05
Speaker 1: caught flat footed by this thing. I think they expected
22:08
Speaker 1: all these soldiers to just fall in line. And it
22:11
Speaker 1: really shows you what happens when you stand on principle
22:14
Speaker 1: and when people that are you know, violating their oaths
22:18
Speaker 1: possibly and are you know, transforming in the US military
22:21
Speaker 1: into something it was never intended to be. And this
22:24
Speaker 1: whole un ruling regime is trying to kind of solidify
22:29
Speaker 1: its control over one of the most powerful militaries in history,
22:32
Speaker 1: that being the US military. Along the way, when they
22:36
Speaker 1: run into someone standing on principle, it's amazing what the
22:39
Speaker 1: effect is They really didn't know what to do, Daniel,
22:45
Speaker 1: excuse me. Michael would ask questions and they would just
22:47
Speaker 1: kind of say, look it up, your self, soldier, because
22:51
Speaker 1: you know, they were on a mission to solidify power
22:53
Speaker 1: for the UN and they weren't about to allow principle
22:56
Speaker 1: to get in their way. So Michael put these principles
23:00
Speaker 1: right in front of them and you know, made them
23:03
Speaker 1: look in the mirror a little bit. And it's amazing
23:06
Speaker 1: how that manifests itself throughout this whole thing. You were
23:10
Speaker 1: telling me all sorts of things that Michael during the
23:14
Speaker 1: time leading up to the court martial was getting tons
23:17
Speaker 1: of letters, tons of support from the public, baked cookies,
23:21
Speaker 1: all sorts of surprises in the mail, showing that there
23:26
Speaker 1: was a lot of public support, a lot of people
23:28
Speaker 1: recognizing the principles he was calling out and standing on.
23:32
Speaker 1: This had to have really unnerved the powers that be,
23:37
Speaker 1: if you would, there's plenty of room for comment on that.
23:40
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Yes. The first of all, let me
23:43
Speaker 2: say that these deployments into Macedonia each lasted six months.
23:48
Speaker 2: That was the duration. So they would rotate in a
23:51
Speaker 2: group of guys and then rotate back out in six
23:53
Speaker 2: months and there were others. There were British units, there
23:58
Speaker 2: there were other Nation On units within the country. And
24:04
Speaker 2: when it started, when the issue came up with Mike,
24:08
Speaker 2: no one had really thought about it. Nobody had really
24:10
Speaker 2: thought about the constitutionality among the soldiers, at least no
24:13
Speaker 2: one had discussed it. So this was a new thing
24:15
Speaker 2: to them, and right away there was quite a bit
24:18
Speaker 2: of discussion in Barricks and some of them said they
24:23
Speaker 2: didn't see the big problem. Most of them, though, would
24:26
Speaker 2: come to him and say, you know, I see your point.
24:29
Speaker 2: You've got a good point. It makes sense. But Mike,
24:32
Speaker 2: they're going to pay us one thousand dollars a month
24:36
Speaker 2: or six a month. You know, that's six thousand dollars
24:38
Speaker 2: means a lot to a soldier, and I can buy
24:41
Speaker 2: it a car, used car for that much money. So
24:45
Speaker 2: there was that attitude and at the same time, and
24:47
Speaker 2: I really do think that if a large number of
24:50
Speaker 2: them had stood with him, that they would have probably
24:53
Speaker 2: backed off on the court martial, or at least they
24:56
Speaker 2: might have had to scrap the whole deployment. But in
25:00
Speaker 2: any event, once he called me and he said I
25:05
Speaker 2: think I'm going to be court martialed, my reaction was,
25:09
Speaker 2: first of all, what have you done. I haven't done anything.
25:13
Speaker 2: He said, well, they don't court martial you for not
25:15
Speaker 2: doing anything.
25:16
Speaker 1: Come on.
25:17
Speaker 2: So then he said, no, it's for something I'm going
25:19
Speaker 2: to not do. And he's already made up his mind,
25:23
Speaker 2: and so naturally we we we said, look, we stand
25:26
Speaker 2: with you. You decide what you want, we'll be we'll
25:29
Speaker 2: be supportive. But it was a strong thing to him
25:34
Speaker 2: that he could not be forced to serve another power
25:38
Speaker 2: against his will. It would be one thing if they
25:40
Speaker 2: took volunteers only, but to force a man to serve
25:45
Speaker 2: under a foreign authority somehow violates the very concept of
25:51
Speaker 2: national sovereignty. It violates the concept of who is a
25:55
Speaker 2: free man and who is a serf who belongs to
25:58
Speaker 2: the government to be paid or traded like a professional
26:02
Speaker 2: football player. So we we certainly were supportive of that.
26:07
Speaker 2: And the first thing that happened, I thought, now, who
26:10
Speaker 2: can I call? I need to call someone. Where do
26:13
Speaker 2: I find help? I need someone who is has legal experience.
26:18
Speaker 2: I need someone who is to tangle with the government.
26:24
Speaker 2: And at that moment, the radio was on behind my shoulder.
26:27
Speaker 2: Over my shoulder, this voice says, stay tuned for G.
26:30
Speaker 2: Gordon Liddy. I don't know if you guys remember G.
26:35
Speaker 2: Gordon Liddy, but he fit all the parameters. And then
26:40
Speaker 2: to show you that it was divine intervention, picked up
26:43
Speaker 2: the phone. I dialed his phone number and I got
26:46
Speaker 2: through as the first caller on the first try. So
26:49
Speaker 2: how many times does that happen? So went on the
26:54
Speaker 2: air and he gave me some very good advice, and
26:56
Speaker 2: basically he said, guessing you guys are not made out
27:00
Speaker 2: of money. If your son is a medic in the army,
27:03
Speaker 2: and I recommend that you just take your licks, go
27:07
Speaker 2: home and get a job and forget about it. But
27:09
Speaker 2: if you're going to do it, if you're going to
27:11
Speaker 2: fight it, here's my advice. It's like charging a machine gun.
27:17
Speaker 2: Do not stop once you get out on the open field.
27:21
Speaker 2: You can't run halfway across the field at a machine
27:23
Speaker 2: gun and then change your mind. It's too late. If
27:26
Speaker 2: you're going to fight it, fight it all the way.
27:29
Speaker 2: And I appreciated that. Then, of course, we found a
27:34
Speaker 2: team of very good attorneys, and the Colonel Ray was
27:38
Speaker 2: a former Deputy Secretary of Defense. We had HERB. Titus
27:43
Speaker 2: and Colonel Henry Hamilton, an army lawyer, and we had
27:48
Speaker 2: just retired and had actually been stationed at that base.
27:51
Speaker 2: He knew all of the other guys, a judge and everyone.
27:55
Speaker 2: So we had a stack of evidence. I mean, we
27:58
Speaker 2: had a piled the chain of command was was was unlawful.
28:03
Speaker 2: The deployment is said. I know this will surprise you, Mark,
28:07
Speaker 2: but Bill Clinton lied to Congress about the nature of
28:11
Speaker 2: the deployment. And I'm sorry to shock your sensibilities there,
28:15
Speaker 2: but uh, the deployment itself was illegal. But why would
28:23
Speaker 2: we let something like that stop us? And the very
28:28
Speaker 2: concept you can just force these guys to go serve
28:30
Speaker 2: against their will. So all of that evidence was set
28:36
Speaker 2: aside by this team of attorneys or whoever. The judge
28:39
Speaker 2: says to the panel, it's in effected your jury. They
28:42
Speaker 2: call it a panel of enlisted men and officers. And
28:48
Speaker 2: they were told by the judge, you are not going
28:50
Speaker 2: to be allowed to see any evidence in this trial.
28:54
Speaker 2: You're only going to answer one question. Did this soldier
28:59
Speaker 2: or did he aunt obey that order? His own mother
29:04
Speaker 2: would have had to vote guilty. Of course he disobeyed
29:06
Speaker 2: the order. The whole question was why, And so off
29:10
Speaker 2: they went. They drank a cup of coffee and fifteen
29:12
Speaker 2: minutes later they came back guilty. He disobeyed the order
29:20
Speaker 2: and after that they were sent away to do the sentencing.
29:23
Speaker 2: I took a couple of hours. He came back with
29:26
Speaker 2: a sentence, and this shocked the Army because they were
29:33
Speaker 2: asking for a dishonorable discharge and time in Eleavenworth Prison
29:38
Speaker 2: where Army prisoners go, and these guys came back with
29:42
Speaker 2: a bad conduct discharge. That is the effect of a misdemeanor,
29:48
Speaker 2: a bad conduct discharge. In fact, I had a colonel
29:52
Speaker 2: call me from Houston the next day and he said,
29:55
Speaker 2: I bet you're upset about the verdict, but let me
29:58
Speaker 2: tell you something that really good came out of that.
30:01
Speaker 2: He said, those guys just guaranteed that he has an
30:05
Speaker 2: appeal all the way to the Supreme Court, and at
30:08
Speaker 2: the same time, they guaranteed that he cannot be put
30:11
Speaker 2: in prison. So he said, you're you're actually seeing some
30:14
Speaker 2: support from that panel, from that jury based on what
30:18
Speaker 2: they had to decide guilty. They did with the and
30:22
Speaker 2: then they gave him an help. They gave him a
30:25
Speaker 2: continual appeal and we took advantage of that.
30:29
Speaker 1: Wow. Uh, that that truly is amazing, and as I noted,
30:36
Speaker 1: Michael was getting a lot of popular support. The American
30:40
Speaker 1: citizen was taking notice of the principles that he stood on,
30:46
Speaker 1: and his his legal team, of course, had to have
30:51
Speaker 1: learned a lot. It had to have been a very
30:53
Speaker 1: u compelling thing for them to get into to review
30:58
Speaker 1: the whole meaning of being a soldier. One of the
31:01
Speaker 1: things I thought, Daniel was that imagine that you're in
31:07
Speaker 1: your son, Michael's position, or any young man or young
31:11
Speaker 1: woman joining the military, and you voluntarily sign up for
31:15
Speaker 1: the military, and then they want to do this switcheroo
31:19
Speaker 1: and have you fight for the un And my immediate
31:24
Speaker 1: reaction to that, if I were Michael or anyone else
31:27
Speaker 1: in similar circumstances, would be, Hey, I didn't sign up
31:30
Speaker 1: for this. There's no military draft right now. The draft
31:34
Speaker 1: was abolished a long time ago in the US. I
31:38
Speaker 1: signed up voluntarily at a outlet for the Army or
31:44
Speaker 1: Navy or whatever, maybe the Marine Corps. And then you
31:48
Speaker 1: get in there and something like this happens. It's as
31:51
Speaker 1: if you're being conscripted. It's as if there's all of
31:53
Speaker 1: a sudden the draft. You signed up for the army,
31:57
Speaker 1: but you're being drafted into the UN against your will.
32:00
Speaker 2: Yes, one of your classic proplies flows. Look, if I
32:03
Speaker 2: had wanted to be a mercenary, I would have joined
32:05
Speaker 2: the French Foreign Legion.
32:07
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And so that's another way that US law
32:12
Speaker 1: is kind of circumvented. You live under US laws, you
32:15
Speaker 1: live under the Constitution. The Constitution is the supreme law
32:18
Speaker 1: of the land, and there is no draft enacted by Congress.
32:23
Speaker 1: So then to be subjected to what amounts to a
32:26
Speaker 1: draft once you've signed up voluntarily via the UN a
32:30
Speaker 1: foreign power, it's as if you were being It's almost
32:34
Speaker 1: as if you're being kidnapped in sort of a legal sense.
32:39
Speaker 1: And that leads to another point we need to focus
32:43
Speaker 1: on for this all important interview. If you're fighting as
32:46
Speaker 1: a mercenary kind of a constabulary for the global government
32:50
Speaker 1: under the UN flag, under UN authority, under the UN
32:53
Speaker 1: blue and you're captured by the main enemy or some
32:58
Speaker 1: faction that's also your adversary, you're not a prisoner of
33:02
Speaker 1: war under the Geneva Conventions, are you. You're something else.
33:05
Speaker 1: You're a mere hostage. And the consequences of that are
33:10
Speaker 1: partially featured in the documentary Good Conduct, the Story of
33:14
Speaker 1: Michael new and we'll make sure the link to that
33:16
Speaker 1: whole documentary is with this interviews for anyone that wants
33:20
Speaker 1: to watch that very, very all important documentary. So it
33:25
Speaker 1: also shows in that documentary, Daniel, that those soldiers that
33:30
Speaker 1: have been caught while fighting under un authority were desecrated,
33:37
Speaker 1: sometimes murdered in the most heinous ways, or otherwise mistreated.
33:42
Speaker 1: So this is no small matter. This is not just hey,
33:46
Speaker 1: let's wear a different patch and a different hat. But
33:49
Speaker 1: I'm the same old soldier doing the same old thing.
33:51
Speaker 1: Far from it, and I think this is again among
33:55
Speaker 1: the most important things. You're not a prisoner of war,
33:58
Speaker 1: You're a mere hostage. He would elaborate on that a bit.
34:02
Speaker 2: Yes, we actually sent a letter to the Pentagon asking
34:07
Speaker 2: them to define what his status would be if he
34:09
Speaker 2: were captured, and we have that in print from the
34:12
Speaker 2: Pentagon saying he would not be a pow he would
34:17
Speaker 2: be a United Nations hostage and be protected by all
34:22
Speaker 2: the guarantees that that brings with it, which did not
34:26
Speaker 2: warm the cockles of our heart. The thing that happened
34:32
Speaker 2: though the next year, about a year and a half later,
34:34
Speaker 2: is five Americans were captured in Macedonia. Army personnelis a
34:40
Speaker 2: couple of sergeants and two or three lower ranking and
34:44
Speaker 2: they were captured by these rebels. They were Muslim rebels
34:49
Speaker 2: in Macedonia who were conducting a war of terror there,
34:53
Speaker 2: and the Pentagon wanted to say what they were. The
35:01
Speaker 2: White House had political implications, what if these guys are
35:03
Speaker 2: not POW's and if they did theired They were frustrated
35:08
Speaker 2: for several days, and finally Bill Clinton proclaimed that they
35:12
Speaker 2: were prisoners of war. But that was exactly what the
35:16
Speaker 2: Pentagon had told us. They would not be well, that
35:18
Speaker 2: was for political purposes. If they were soon given back.
35:22
Speaker 2: I think rebels in most cases would have a little
35:24
Speaker 2: less respect for being told that they had u n
35:28
Speaker 2: hostages than they would if they had POW's from the
35:32
Speaker 2: United States. I think that carries a little more weight
35:36
Speaker 2: because if the next thing may happen, they may have
35:38
Speaker 2: marines right on top of So no one's really afraid
35:43
Speaker 2: of the gavel in New York City, but they might
35:47
Speaker 2: be afraid of being appealed of messing with Nates, the
35:50
Speaker 2: United States troops. They're not US troops when they're in
35:54
Speaker 2: a blue hat and a blue scarf and a blue
35:56
Speaker 2: and a blue patch. They are you n mercenaries?
36:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. In the documentary Good Conduct, it quotes the former
36:07
Speaker 1: Congressman Knew Gingrich. He said, and I don't know if
36:10
Speaker 1: this is accurate that they're basically a constabulary, kind of
36:14
Speaker 1: like police officers in military garb. I'm not sure if
36:17
Speaker 1: that's one hundred percent accurate. That was his view.
36:19
Speaker 2: What's your take on that? Well, yeah, that's true. The
36:23
Speaker 2: mission was not to it was not a combat role.
36:27
Speaker 2: The mission was to observe, to monitor, and to report.
36:33
Speaker 2: They were there as peacekeepers. They were not there as combatants,
36:38
Speaker 2: even though they did wear sight arms. But we know
36:42
Speaker 2: on one occasion a whole group of Muslim rebels was
36:49
Speaker 2: being trained to use a certain type of machine gun
36:54
Speaker 2: and they got quartered by Macedonian soldiers and got surprised,
36:59
Speaker 2: and the Macedonia and play hardball. They really they were
37:04
Speaker 2: getting ready to kill them all. The British United Nations
37:10
Speaker 2: troops stepped in between them and held them up and
37:14
Speaker 2: prevented the slaughter. They then called buses and Americans sent
37:18
Speaker 2: over a bus buses and hauled these guys out to
37:21
Speaker 2: protect them from their enemy and it turns out all
37:25
Speaker 2: of the instructors were American instructors who were teaching these
37:29
Speaker 2: rebels how to fight against the government. So we were
37:32
Speaker 2: involved in you know, regime change and coups on both
37:36
Speaker 2: sides and have been for years. So but typically, no,
37:41
Speaker 2: they weren't there to fight. They were there to report
37:43
Speaker 2: and try to protect people from getting killed.
37:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the documentary good conduct, and I think it
37:50
Speaker 1: came up in our conversations before we did this interview.
37:54
Speaker 1: When you're in that position under um authority, you become
37:58
Speaker 1: kind of a the military wing of diplomatic meddling. In
38:03
Speaker 1: other words, you're sort of a chess board for international
38:09
Speaker 1: intrigue and diplomacy, not not the soft power part of diplomacy,
38:13
Speaker 1: but the hard power part of it. And anything can happen.
38:17
Speaker 1: There can be conflicts of interest, there can be the
38:21
Speaker 1: un involved in areas that might be contrary to the
38:26
Speaker 1: safety of US soldiers. I remember back in Korea, it
38:30
Speaker 1: came out that a Russian, a fairly high level Russian officer,
38:36
Speaker 1: was actually involved in overseeing the American part of the
38:42
Speaker 1: Korean War. So, in other words, someone who was a
38:45
Speaker 1: potential adversary in his home nation in this case, that's
38:50
Speaker 1: the USSR was involved in some sort of managerial or
38:55
Speaker 1: oversight role on the US involvement in the Korean War
38:59
Speaker 1: under the U win flagged. So, in other words, it
39:01
Speaker 1: would be possible through the UN to send our troops
39:05
Speaker 1: intentionally into harm's way, a huge, deathly conflict of interest.
39:10
Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly how that worked, but what I
39:14
Speaker 1: am saying is that being involved under a foreign power
39:18
Speaker 1: like the UN can lead to deadly consequences where you
39:23
Speaker 1: later find out that the UN was playing both sides
39:26
Speaker 1: of the field. Things like that, And even if it
39:28
Speaker 1: doesn't happen in reality, the potential is always there. What
39:32
Speaker 1: is your knowledge or take on that.
39:35
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, let me say that soldiers are
39:37
Speaker 2: always owned in a game. They have no say and
39:41
Speaker 2: where they're sinned. The trust and that they have is
39:46
Speaker 2: that their own government will not betray them, excuse me,
39:50
Speaker 2: will not betray them or or put them in in
39:54
Speaker 2: into some sort of a situation that is contrary to
39:57
Speaker 2: the to the needs of their own come that doesn't happen.
40:01
Speaker 2: The same thing that you describe in Korea also happened
40:04
Speaker 2: in Vietnam. The UH the North Vietnamese knew in many
40:10
Speaker 2: cases they knew in many cases when what the Americans
40:14
Speaker 2: were going to do, because our orders had to go
40:16
Speaker 2: through Security Council, and that included the Soviet Union in
40:21
Speaker 2: uh In, New York. And so that's not new. And
40:25
Speaker 2: obviously every nation, whether it should have its own interests
40:29
Speaker 2: at heart or not, is that a question. Is it
40:32
Speaker 2: wrong for a Germany, or England, or or or Kenya
40:38
Speaker 2: to want to take care of their own country first
40:41
Speaker 2: and their own people first. We certainly saw that in
40:44
Speaker 2: uh In, in Somalia and in the in the uh
40:50
Speaker 2: fiasco there with the with the situation where some United
40:55
Speaker 2: Nations troops would not respond, would not go and save
40:59
Speaker 2: America troops who were under fire. So you know, the
41:05
Speaker 2: black Hawk Down, the movie is made about that. It
41:07
Speaker 2: was based upon true events. So you have unreliable troops
41:13
Speaker 2: to start with, especially if they're going to be so selfish.
41:17
Speaker 2: I still want to live. I has to want to
41:19
Speaker 2: live and want to or perhaps to pursue their own
41:22
Speaker 2: countries goals rather than the UN goals. That's that's always
41:27
Speaker 2: going to be a problem. I was just going to
41:29
Speaker 2: say that when Michael got this this as soon as
41:35
Speaker 2: we did an interview, the first or second interview I did.
41:38
Speaker 2: Someone asked me what can I do, and I said,
41:41
Speaker 2: we drop him a card, you know, to give him
41:43
Speaker 2: some support. He'd probably appreciate that, and I gave his
41:46
Speaker 2: address out on the air. Oh my goodness, the response
41:52
Speaker 2: was so terrific. I could tell from my own email
41:55
Speaker 2: response that he was going to get a lot of mail.
41:58
Speaker 2: So I called him and I warned him and he said.
42:03
Speaker 2: I asked him later, you know how much mail did
42:04
Speaker 2: you get? He said, I don't know. He said, what
42:07
Speaker 2: do you mean you don't know? I mean I've been
42:09
Speaker 2: waiting for three days to hear how much mail you
42:11
Speaker 2: got over the weekend. And he said, well, you put
42:15
Speaker 2: it like this, he said. I was carrying the second
42:17
Speaker 2: Duffel bag full of mail from the mail room to
42:21
Speaker 2: my barracks, and it was so full it was overflowing.
42:25
Speaker 2: And the sergeant comes along and says, what are you
42:27
Speaker 2: doing besides littering? You know, what is this? He said,
42:30
Speaker 2: just taking home the mail, sergeant, he said, And so
42:34
Speaker 2: he said, well let me see. He said, let me
42:35
Speaker 2: look at some of that, because I bet you half
42:37
Speaker 2: of them want to see you in the stockade. And
42:42
Speaker 2: I said, sure, come on, in, They sat on his bunk.
42:45
Speaker 2: They opened mail for about forty five venutes before dinner time,
42:50
Speaker 2: and not one single letter was critical. Nobody was disagreed.
42:53
Speaker 2: The sergeant was blown away. He said, I had no
42:57
Speaker 2: idea the American people feel this way about the United
43:02
Speaker 2: Nations are about about you know this, this whole concept.
43:06
Speaker 2: It was all new to him. And it continued. And
43:10
Speaker 2: then later, of course there's the famous story about the cookies.
43:13
Speaker 2: But we can do that later.
43:15
Speaker 1: Yes, I even understand somewhat more humorous, don't. But it's
43:19
Speaker 1: it's notable that he even got a couple of marriage
43:21
Speaker 1: proposals in the mail.
43:24
Speaker 2: He did. He got marriage proposals, he got cookies, and
43:28
Speaker 2: of course his mother said, don't eat the cookies. You
43:30
Speaker 2: know how moms can be. Don't eat the cookies. He said, oh,
43:33
Speaker 2: come mom, He said, they're so good, he said. She said, no,
43:38
Speaker 2: that's the way that somebody will poison you. You don't
43:40
Speaker 2: want to do that, so that's how they'll get you.
43:43
Speaker 2: So a few days later he said something to me
43:46
Speaker 2: on the phone. He didn't know she was listening. He said, boy,
43:50
Speaker 2: somebody sent some great chocolate chip cookies. And she said, hey, hey, hey,
43:54
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to be eating this, he said, Oh
43:57
Speaker 2: it's okay. Now we figured out a way to test them.
44:01
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, what's that Now? We just give a few
44:04
Speaker 2: to the lt to the lieutenant. The next morning. If
44:06
Speaker 2: you're still alive, we know it's okay to eat it.
44:11
Speaker 1: You got to have a guinea pig somewhere. As we
44:16
Speaker 1: begin to summarize this all important issue that arose twenty
44:24
Speaker 1: years ago next year, and I'm glad we're catching it
44:27
Speaker 1: ahead of time, or excuse me, thirty years ago rather
44:31
Speaker 1: beck your pardon, thirty years ago next year. I'm glad,
44:33
Speaker 1: and I'm glad we're catching it in advance of that
44:35
Speaker 1: all important milestone. We've got to look a little bit
44:41
Speaker 1: at what have been the long term effects of what
44:44
Speaker 1: your son Michael did. If I'm wrong, correct me. What
44:48
Speaker 1: I've seen is, while the UN Security Council I believe
44:53
Speaker 1: was too deeply involved in the attack Shock and Awe
44:58
Speaker 1: attack on Iraq in March of two thousand and three
45:02
Speaker 1: and the earlier Desert Storm Desert Shield military coalition adventures
45:09
Speaker 1: maybe you'd call them misadventures, it does seem that they
45:16
Speaker 1: ever since Michael's situation and what he did, and maybe
45:20
Speaker 1: I'm missing examples to the contrary, it does seem that
45:26
Speaker 1: they've been very reluctant to try again to make national
45:30
Speaker 1: soldiers from the US and other nations explicitly fight for
45:35
Speaker 1: the UN with the dominant patch on the right, the
45:40
Speaker 1: unit patch on the left, meaning that your unit is
45:43
Speaker 1: the US or Great Britain or whatever, but your real
45:45
Speaker 1: boss on the right patches the UN and the UN
45:49
Speaker 1: blue helmets, UN, blue berets, the overall blue insignia. Is
45:53
Speaker 1: that happening at all or has it been at least
45:58
Speaker 1: toned down? What have been the long term effects of
46:00
Speaker 1: what your son did.
46:02
Speaker 2: One of the long term effects is that we gave
46:05
Speaker 2: them a bloody nose on the issue of the uniform
46:09
Speaker 2: and they learned a lesson from that. And today a
46:12
Speaker 2: lot of guys are being sent out on you in
46:15
Speaker 2: authorized deployments wearing American uniforms, so you don't see that distinction.
46:21
Speaker 2: There may be a UN flag somewhere back in the
46:23
Speaker 2: back or at the headquarters, but they are not if
46:27
Speaker 2: they're not even aware in some cases, if this is
46:30
Speaker 2: anything more than just a UN thing, But it's not
46:34
Speaker 2: nearly as blatant. Now that's an empty victory to me.
46:37
Speaker 2: In fact, it just made them more sophisticated Mark because
46:41
Speaker 2: they they've learned how to get away with it and
46:44
Speaker 2: not offend. Because had they not used the uniform, Mike
46:48
Speaker 2: may not have even reacted. You know, his reaction was
46:51
Speaker 2: on a gut level. It's a basic level. He wasn't
46:56
Speaker 2: he wasn't an expert on the United Nations. He just
46:59
Speaker 2: understood that flags and hats and symbols mean things, and
47:04
Speaker 2: so they've gotten away from that. Also, I was told
47:07
Speaker 2: recently by a colonel who I know here locally in
47:10
Speaker 2: the reserve. He said that they don't if you if
47:15
Speaker 2: you refuse to go, you can opt out. It doesn't
47:18
Speaker 2: look good on your career, but you don't have to
47:21
Speaker 2: go anymore. If they send you on a un deployment
47:24
Speaker 2: of that is a major shift. And I have not
47:27
Speaker 2: confirmed it. I haven't gotten I'd like to go get
47:31
Speaker 2: someone who's in active duty Department of Defense to tell me.
47:35
Speaker 2: But we're still using them. And if it's NATO, then
47:38
Speaker 2: it's the same thing. And American troops are already serving
47:43
Speaker 2: under NATO and in Ukraine and in Israel and in
47:49
Speaker 2: many other hotspots around the world, and they're there as
47:54
Speaker 2: NATO troops. So the whole issue with NATO is the
47:57
Speaker 2: same issues with you ged nations. And this is something
48:02
Speaker 2: I don't think most Europeans and or Americans understand, is
48:06
Speaker 2: that this is not nineteen. This is a thirty year
48:10
Speaker 2: old issue. This is a twenty twenty four to twenty
48:14
Speaker 2: twenty five issue. And it's your children today who are enlisting,
48:18
Speaker 2: who are going to find themselves fighting, bleeding and dying
48:23
Speaker 2: or one world government because that's the direction they're trying
48:27
Speaker 2: to take it. One of the great ironies of our
48:30
Speaker 2: lifetime mark is that what we used to think of
48:34
Speaker 2: as the Soviet Union and those who would enforce a
48:38
Speaker 2: global government on the rest of us is today the
48:43
Speaker 2: bulwark against the new world order? Is that not a great.
48:46
Speaker 1: Iron certainly it is. You raised some very good points
48:51
Speaker 1: there on the one hand, and we're not confirmed on
48:54
Speaker 1: it yet. As you said, it appears, I stress the word.
48:57
Speaker 1: It appears that if you're a soldier and there's a
49:01
Speaker 1: pending NATO or UN mission, you can opt out. And
49:04
Speaker 1: we want to confirm that. And I'll try and find
49:07
Speaker 1: some documentation and some links that will go along with
49:11
Speaker 1: this video that we're doing the interview once it's posted
49:15
Speaker 1: to try and clarify that. Of course, the good conduct
49:18
Speaker 1: YouTube video link for that documentary will be along with
49:21
Speaker 1: this interview posted at UK column dot org. But it's
49:28
Speaker 1: really important for everyone to realize that a UN mission
49:33
Speaker 1: authorized largely by the UN Security Council, that's the executive
49:37
Speaker 1: arm of the UN foreign government, even if the Congress
49:41
Speaker 1: gives it some weak, need little authorization to use military force,
49:46
Speaker 1: which is this blank check that Congress has given the
49:49
Speaker 1: Presidency which doesn't have a lot of meaning or substance
49:52
Speaker 1: to it. There's no again, no formal declaration of war
49:56
Speaker 1: as required under the US Constitution, and there hasn't been
49:59
Speaker 1: one of those as World War two, and so this
50:02
Speaker 1: whole new paradigm is trying to completely ensconce itself. And
50:08
Speaker 1: so it behooves everyone who's got sons and daughters going
50:12
Speaker 1: into the military to find out who the ultimate authority is,
50:15
Speaker 1: to find out if you can opt out of particular missions.
50:19
Speaker 1: And just because you're wearing your home coolers doesn't necessarily
50:23
Speaker 1: mean it's a home based or home authorized mission. So
50:27
Speaker 1: there's a lot of room for investigation. Still. Michael Michael
50:32
Speaker 1: opened up this whole thing, so everyone could begin looking
50:35
Speaker 1: at it and begin thinking about it. But I think
50:38
Speaker 1: what it boils down to is do we even want
50:41
Speaker 1: the United Nations around? Is it really doing the world
50:46
Speaker 1: better for there to be a UN? Or at the
50:48
Speaker 1: very least, should your nation be a member state of
50:52
Speaker 1: the UN. And we remember the John Birsh Society's rallying cry,
50:57
Speaker 1: get us out of the United Nations, us standing for you,
51:01
Speaker 1: and that is still a relevant topic to consider. You know,
51:06
Speaker 1: the UN itself, what is it about? It has other branches,
51:10
Speaker 1: the WHO possibly looking at pushing a very onerous, pandemic treaty.
51:16
Speaker 1: And if the WHO is a branch to the UN,
51:18
Speaker 1: that means it's part of the UN government. It is
51:21
Speaker 1: a foreign government. But digressing from that, this raises all
51:27
Speaker 1: sorts of questions, as you say, that are not a
51:30
Speaker 1: thirty year old lesson, but they're right here right now,
51:33
Speaker 1: even though next year does mark that important milestone marking
51:36
Speaker 1: thirty years since Michael did what he did, and what
51:41
Speaker 1: does what else comes to mind, Daniel any other loose ends.
51:46
Speaker 1: As we wind up, we can talk a minute about
51:49
Speaker 1: what Michael's doing today, a little bit about his current
51:52
Speaker 1: life and what other loose ends. Might there be legal
51:56
Speaker 1: or otherwise that we maybe haven't covered well.
51:59
Speaker 2: First of all, I want to back up and clarify
52:02
Speaker 2: that I did not mean to state or imply that
52:07
Speaker 2: they might have an option on a NATO deployment, the
52:11
Speaker 2: direct United Nations employment or peacekeeping movement, especially if it's
52:16
Speaker 2: a combat zone. I've been told that they might be
52:20
Speaker 2: able to opt out of that, but I don't know
52:22
Speaker 2: that about NATO, and I certainly don't know that about Ukraine.
52:26
Speaker 2: And I'm sure they're taking volunteers right now, technicians who
52:28
Speaker 2: are who are handling the artillery and the rocketry and
52:33
Speaker 2: the computers and the drones. There are plenty of Americans
52:38
Speaker 2: and Brits and Germans in there, but I'm sure those
52:42
Speaker 2: are volunteers at this point. But standing in the reserve
52:46
Speaker 2: in Poland, in Romania and in other countries around the
52:50
Speaker 2: edges of Ukraine are a whole lot of soldiers from
52:54
Speaker 2: various and sundry countries who are probably not going to
52:57
Speaker 2: get any option at all. As they continue to push
53:02
Speaker 2: this envelope and continue to to push and escalate, as
53:07
Speaker 2: the West continues to escalate this this war, the danger
53:12
Speaker 2: of them being involved either in conventional or nuclear war
53:15
Speaker 2: gets greater every day. One of the things I did
53:20
Speaker 2: also want to mention is that that I have heard
53:23
Speaker 2: since Michael's case, there has been more than one soldier
53:26
Speaker 2: who tried to present evidence and was told he could
53:30
Speaker 2: not present it based upon the precedent that was set
53:34
Speaker 2: in the Michael new case, that they didn't have to
53:37
Speaker 2: look at his evidence. All they had to do is
53:39
Speaker 2: decide if he did it or didn't, and why was
53:42
Speaker 2: no longer relevant. This is a terrible blow to the
53:46
Speaker 2: I think, to the the whole concept of justice within
53:49
Speaker 2: the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So that's not good. Now.
53:54
Speaker 2: Mike today lives up in the in the Northwest. He's
53:57
Speaker 2: the design engineer for a company that installed internet and
54:03
Speaker 2: telephone services and very happy living a quiet life, hoping
54:08
Speaker 2: nobody recognizes he didn't do it to be famous.
54:12
Speaker 1: Yes, And as we're talking, we're showing some pictures of
54:16
Speaker 1: Michael today. We saw what he looked like back in
54:19
Speaker 1: the nineties at the first film clip with this documentary.
54:23
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, despite all the ups and downs and difficult
54:28
Speaker 1: legal situations and whatnot, Michael did in my view, and
54:33
Speaker 1: I think in the view of many certainly those that
54:35
Speaker 1: were sending him so much mail back in the day.
54:38
Speaker 1: He did a great public service and shining a bright light,
54:41
Speaker 1: a very bright light on the unconstitutionality of fighting for
54:47
Speaker 1: a foreign power under a foreign commander and where that
54:50
Speaker 1: can lead and the very dire implications not only potentially,
54:57
Speaker 1: but things that actually happened to us soldier under you
55:00
Speaker 1: and command, very atrocious things. And so I believe that
55:07
Speaker 1: this provides plenty of reflection again on the United Nations itself.
55:13
Speaker 1: Let's look at its founding again. I'll put some links
55:16
Speaker 1: with this show and talk a little bit on UK
55:18
Speaker 1: column dot org I report every Friday, we'll talk a
55:21
Speaker 1: little bit more about the UN's founding, how it's structured,
55:26
Speaker 1: it's how the people of the world feel about it.
55:30
Speaker 1: Certainly there was a lot of skepticism back then, as
55:34
Speaker 1: evidenced by the mail and support that Michael got, and
55:38
Speaker 1: we can only hope that that skepticism and those questions
55:42
Speaker 1: are still being asked, and certainly will encourage those questions
55:45
Speaker 1: to be asked so we can look at just exactly
55:49
Speaker 1: where our nations and our military is headed. And it
55:52
Speaker 1: seems to be very indicative. Daniel the way a military
55:57
Speaker 1: is handled and structured, and the way the chain of
55:59
Speaker 1: command is put together is a provides a very clear
56:04
Speaker 1: measurement of just where the powers that be are trying
56:07
Speaker 1: to take us. And maybe that's one of Michael's greatest
56:12
Speaker 1: contributions is through the military venue, He's opened up all
56:16
Speaker 1: the right doors to where we even today look can
56:20
Speaker 1: use the same criteria and look along the same lines,
56:23
Speaker 1: the military chain of command and all these things, and
56:26
Speaker 1: by that we can gauge and measure just where our
56:30
Speaker 1: governments are trying to take us. And it still appears
56:32
Speaker 1: to be in the direction of global governance, a global government.
56:38
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm engaging in wishful thinking, but it seems that
56:42
Speaker 1: Michael's case might have slowed them down a little bit.
56:45
Speaker 1: As you say, they kind of got to be a
56:46
Speaker 1: little more sly about it. Keep everybody in their national uniforms,
56:50
Speaker 1: but still send them on what basically amounts to you
56:53
Speaker 1: and missions without being too explicit about it. But it
56:58
Speaker 1: gives us a great agree way of a good avenue
57:01
Speaker 1: of inquiry and a great way to measure just what's
57:04
Speaker 1: going on. Maybe you want to reflect on that and
57:07
Speaker 1: we can begin to conclude.
57:09
Speaker 2: Well, I think basically most people love their country, or
57:14
Speaker 2: at least like their own country. If they didn't, they
57:18
Speaker 2: wouldn't be joining up in the military in those countries.
57:21
Speaker 2: And our bottom line is if you love your country,
57:26
Speaker 2: United Nations is not we're friend. Period. We'll stop.
57:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. I think that pretty much summarizes
57:33
Speaker 1: it well. Anyway, this has been an interview with Daniel New,
57:38
Speaker 1: the father of Michael New, the former Army medic who
57:42
Speaker 1: caused such a stir and made the US government re
57:46
Speaker 1: examine itself in those days. Of course, they came down
57:50
Speaker 1: hard trying to say we're in charge, you're not. You're
57:53
Speaker 1: supposed to obey because we said so. And I'll just
57:56
Speaker 1: mention one of the loose send that came to mind Daniel,
58:00
Speaker 1: and it's in the documentary that And I don't know
58:04
Speaker 1: if this is still true, but as of that time,
58:07
Speaker 1: the US Congress had never approved the military attire of
58:14
Speaker 1: the un I'm not sure exactly how that works, but
58:17
Speaker 1: the uniform and the regalia and all that for any
58:23
Speaker 1: anything other than US authority had never been approved by Congress,
58:28
Speaker 1: and I wonder if that still holds true.
58:30
Speaker 2: That's a great point. There are regulations that govern the
58:35
Speaker 2: weare of every uniform, and the regulations that governed the
58:40
Speaker 2: battle dress uniform says that there are certain berets that
58:45
Speaker 2: could be worn. A red beret if you're in the
58:47
Speaker 2: right unit, a green beret if you're in special Forces,
58:50
Speaker 2: a black beret. There's no mention of a blue beret.
58:54
Speaker 2: And you say, oh, well, big deal. Well it is
58:56
Speaker 2: a big deal because the code clearly says no article
59:00
Speaker 2: of uniform that is not specifically authorized in this regulation
59:06
Speaker 2: may be worn. And then it turns around and says
59:08
Speaker 2: it the other way. So it was an unauthorized uniform.
59:12
Speaker 2: Now they could change that. He changed the code, but
59:15
Speaker 2: at the time they had not changed the code. By
59:18
Speaker 2: the way, I had forgotten, and I wanted to bring
59:20
Speaker 2: to your attention that a book was written on the subject.
59:23
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can see this or not,
59:25
Speaker 2: but I happened to think it's fairly well written. But
59:29
Speaker 2: because I wrote it, so we'll let others decide what
59:33
Speaker 2: a good book it is. But this is the story
59:36
Speaker 2: of Michael new Mercenary or American soldier question mark. Now
59:41
Speaker 2: that was the first edition. We had it reprinted three
59:45
Speaker 2: or four times, and this is now. The current edition
59:49
Speaker 2: is the it's a camouflage. Obviously we took It occurred
59:53
Speaker 2: to me that a soldier might get in trouble carrying
59:56
Speaker 2: around the book with Michael news picture lawil. So we
59:59
Speaker 2: got to asking ourselves, what what does an officer want
1:00:03
Speaker 2: to see his troops reading. And the answer was about,
1:00:10
Speaker 2: you know, a field training manual. So we took a
1:00:12
Speaker 2: copy of We took my Field Training Manual, and we
1:00:15
Speaker 2: duplicated the cover. I want to point out that anyone
1:00:18
Speaker 2: who asked for a copy of this, especially soldiers. I mean,
1:00:22
Speaker 2: we sell these books for five dollars, which is cheap
1:00:26
Speaker 2: cheap for a paperback. But you know, I need a
1:00:29
Speaker 2: couple of books for postage. But we will give a
1:00:31
Speaker 2: copy of this book anyone who asks for it, who's
1:00:34
Speaker 2: in uniform active duty. I do ask, you know, help
1:00:38
Speaker 2: me out with a postage, but we'll send it anywhere
1:00:41
Speaker 2: in the world, and we don't ask for a donation
1:00:43
Speaker 2: for that. We're not interested in trying to get rich.
1:00:45
Speaker 2: We've just would like to get the message out. And
1:00:48
Speaker 2: I am told by those who who I think are
1:00:53
Speaker 2: very honest that the book helped open their eyes and
1:00:57
Speaker 2: help them understand. I think active duty personnel veterans, the
1:01:02
Speaker 2: young people contemplating and listenment. It's a good book to
1:01:06
Speaker 2: put in their hands and they read.
1:01:07
Speaker 1: It absolutely, whether you're from the UK, Europe, the US, Canada,
1:01:12
Speaker 1: wherever you might be from. Well, thank you for that.
1:01:16
Speaker 1: I'm glad that we added that on so Michael's legacy
1:01:20
Speaker 1: can carry on for decades to come. And the thirtieth
1:01:25
Speaker 1: year again anniversary is next year, so we can continue
1:01:29
Speaker 1: to focus on this issue and sustain and enlarge upon
1:01:34
Speaker 1: what Michael did. Get the NATO related question answered, get
1:01:37
Speaker 1: all these lingering, loose end questions answered, and solidify the
1:01:42
Speaker 1: case for national sovereignty. And it's just shocking to look
1:01:46
Speaker 1: at Michael's case and look at the US government wanting
1:01:49
Speaker 1: to abridge and defy its own rules, its own regulations,
1:01:53
Speaker 1: and literally defy the Constitution itself, which each soldier, officer, etc.
1:02:00
Speaker 1: Takes an oath to uphold and defend. In other words,
1:02:03
Speaker 1: breaking the oath for the sake of the United Nations
1:02:07
Speaker 1: a Rockefeller created monstrosity. Anyway, thanks Daniel for this interview
1:02:13
Speaker 1: and I hope everyone out there in UK colum Land
1:02:16
Speaker 1: enjoys this and we'll see you next time.
1:02:19
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.