Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / AM S2 Ep 15: Keeping the Faith

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AM S2 Ep 15: Keeping the Faith · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: despite all odds.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode,
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  Rose and I riff on scenarios and themes that have emerged among
• 0:42
  parents of TI kids,
• 0:43
  including how to come alongside our children without fear of
• 0:46
  implied support of the
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: trans identity,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: how hard it is to navigate friendships in today's fraught world,
• 0:53
  the need to maintain boundaries and integrity in all of our
• 0:55
  relationships,
• 0:57
  the importance of faith and trusting that our efforts to
• 0:59
  nurture attachment are
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: working,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: and more.
• 1:03
  We end on the reminder that life is always a tapestry woven
• 1:06
  with both joy and pain.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: We are back.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we are.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're back.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Episode 15, here we come.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this has been a longer season than season one.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:36
  And we thought we would dive into some common scenarios and
• 1:44
  explore how some of
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: these attachment ideas and concepts exist.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: can be applied,
• 1:51
  might be presenting themselves through some of these
• 1:55
  circumstances and see if we
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: can see how practical we can make this information.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: And also, you know, just kind of pausing on the...
• 2:12
  the kind of train moving forward with new concepts and new
• 2:16
  content and just sort of
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: pause for reflection.
• 2:22
  We did imagine this as a Q and a episode,
• 2:26
  but we didn't get any questions yet.
• 2:28
  So we're still hoping we might get a few for next episode
• 2:33
  potentially,
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  but for today,
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  we're going to focus on themes that we hear coming up
• 2:41
  frequently or have noticed
• 2:45
  and hopefully also have opportunities to share more about
• 2:48
  things that we have
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: experienced or that we're struggling with as well.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And on that note,
• 2:56
  just a reminder to paid subscribers that questions can be
• 3:00
  submitted in that form
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: of,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I know it was published from the Substack.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's a paid piece,
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: but anybody can read it down to a certain point,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: down to just before the link to the form.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll make sure that that goes out again to paid subscribers.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're not a paid subscriber,
• 3:26
  this is also a good opportunity to become one if you would like
• 3:29
  to submit a
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: question and have us discuss it online.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: during an episode where we can address your specific question.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, where should we dive in, Rose?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:50
  Well,
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  one of the things that you mentioned before we started
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  recording is just this
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  SPEAKER_02: this huge question of,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: with the Neufeld content,
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: there's this concept of coming alongside our child.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Or even like last episode we talked about,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: we used it in the context of like coming alongside ourselves when we're,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: having difficult emotions or,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: need to grieve,
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: find that back door to,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: that motor,
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  that maturation motor of fulfillment when we don't have our
• 4:32
  attachment needs
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  fulfilled and we have to experience the futility of the lack of
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  that fulfillment in
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  SPEAKER_02: order to mature,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: that we were talking at the end,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: coming alongside ourselves.
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  SPEAKER_02: So this is a huge,
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  SPEAKER_02: I would say,
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  SPEAKER_02: construct,
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  SPEAKER_02: visual,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: image that Neufeld invites us to try to embody,
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  SPEAKER_02: whether in relationship to another or to ourselves,
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  SPEAKER_02: where we are walking alongside,
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  SPEAKER_02: that we're not in an antagonistic
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  SPEAKER_02: Kind of we're not going to war with ourselves or with another,
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  SPEAKER_02: but we're almost in this idea of accompaniment,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: of being alongside difficult emotions or experiences.
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  SPEAKER_01: I love this visual thing.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know, and I, it's, it's interesting.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I said this in another,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think in a conversation with Regina on my other podcast,
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: but I was always such a verbal person until recently.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And now I think a lot more about the visual and the shapes.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And, and one thing that did come into my mind was
• 6:05
  at some point with my daughter was positioning,
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  like that word just really stuck with me.
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  SPEAKER_01: How am I positioned in this relationship?
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  SPEAKER_01: How am I positioned in her life?
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  SPEAKER_01: am I opposed, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Am I in opposition?
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  SPEAKER_01: In which case, we're on opposite teams.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're not on the same side, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: That's what that means.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Another word that comes to mind is frontal assault, you know?
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  SPEAKER_01: And this came from a conversation that I listened to.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was Lisa Marciano interviewing Patrick Ryan, who I've also had on.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he's a
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  SPEAKER_01: a cult expert,
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  SPEAKER_01: even though he's really careful with his language,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and he discourages frontal assault.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that our natural,
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: right,
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  SPEAKER_01: our natural response to that,
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  SPEAKER_01: and you and I talk about what moves us so often,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: we,
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  SPEAKER_01: if somebody comes at us,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and it feels like frontal assaults
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  SPEAKER_01: it doesn't matter right, wrong, whatever.
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  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't, it doesn't matter.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're going to defend ourselves.
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  SPEAKER_01: We must, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: That is, that's the instinct is to defend, you know?
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  SPEAKER_01: And so just what the positioning does to
• 7:37
  the energy and to our capacity to communicate and hear each
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  other and feel
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: supported and support one another.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is all really important.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: You also bring up the war metaphors.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so glad.
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  SPEAKER_01: I remember that too.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh my gosh, I'm using so many war metaphors.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're so embedded in our language.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think even...
• 8:00
  Even in the support given to parents and this idea of being a
• 8:03
  united front.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And every time I hear that, I'm like, maybe we need a different metaphor.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because even that sounds oppositional to the child.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  And sounds like it's creating an us versus them dynamic where
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  they're going to feel
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  SPEAKER_01: very defended and afraid,
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  SPEAKER_01: I would imagine.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oof.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it will be moving into,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  returning to a lot of discussion around attachment and those
• 8:41
  six stages of
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  SPEAKER_02: attachment.
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  This concept of coming alongside to be on the same side as is
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  part of that third step.
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  SPEAKER_02: Root of attachment, which is belonging and loyalty.
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  SPEAKER_02: So,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: we don't want,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: a sensitive child,
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  SPEAKER_02: which many of these,
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  SPEAKER_02: many of these kids are,
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  SPEAKER_02: if not hypersensitive,
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  SPEAKER_02: or,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: what we call on the spectrum,
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  SPEAKER_02: ADHD,
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  SPEAKER_02: gifted.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: um,
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  SPEAKER_02: or highly sensitive,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: they will sniff an agenda coming from us instantaneously.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_02: So we have to be very careful.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, my brain sometimes is like, Oh, okay.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I have to have the loyalty route.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I am going to come alongside,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: but it's just like,
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm painfully,
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  SPEAKER_02: my agenda is painfully obvious sometimes,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know?
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  SPEAKER_02: So
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  SPEAKER_02: But we can know this.
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  SPEAKER_02: We can know I don't want to be in opposition.
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  SPEAKER_02: I want my child's lived experience of me,
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  SPEAKER_02: not like a social justice lived experience,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: but I want their emotional,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: I want a softness of heart.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: to be able for that sense that I am on their side,
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  SPEAKER_02: that I hear them,
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  SPEAKER_02: that,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: a couple episodes again,
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  SPEAKER_02: I see your pain can land,
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  SPEAKER_02: can truly land in a softer heart.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I guess what I'm trying to tease out here is,
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  SPEAKER_02: first of all,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: this concept of coming alongside is about attachments.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's about our child to be able to feel that we are with them,
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  SPEAKER_02: that we're loyal to them,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: that we are coming alongside their experience.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And as we try to position ourselves,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: as you're saying,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: in that way,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: relationally,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes we can't make it just painfully obvious that our agenda,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: that we have an agenda behind it because that will also kind of trigger a
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  SPEAKER_02: defensiveness or a resistance to,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: to those efforts,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's making sense.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it does.
• 11:29
  And I think when we're talking about sensitive kids and them
• 11:34
  being able to sniff
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  SPEAKER_01: the agenda,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: that that agenda will raise the defenses.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: Always.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think if parents are paying attention, they'll notice that.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that anytime you are...
• 11:54
  seeking that teachable moment or you are that your efforts to
• 12:09
  feel connected are so
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: you can make a point.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: That they
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: It hurts.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: It hurts.
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  SPEAKER_01: I watched it happen several times with my own daughter,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: where the moment it sunk in that that's what was happening,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: at least in that communication,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'd lose her.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, she was gone.
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  Sometimes literally getting up and leaving the room because she
• 12:46
  knew I had an agenda.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And she thought we were just connecting.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I, my agenda became right.
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  SPEAKER_01: This, I changed my agenda to ensuring she knew I was on her side.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  And that can be really challenging for moms too because of that
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  fear that,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: then am I implying support for her identity?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  That if I am with her or with my child,
• 13:44
  then she's going to think that I'm
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm okay with this.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on board with this.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  And I'm not,
• 13:51
  you know,
• 13:52
  this is,
• 13:53
  this is dangerous and I don't support this.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, and my kid needs to know that.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:59
  So it puts them,
• 14:00
  puts a parent,
• 14:01
  I think in this sort of catch 22,
• 14:02
  how do I do this?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:19
  I'm pausing here because there's a few different thoughts going
• 14:22
  through my mind,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: but I think you said something really important where you said,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: I changed my agenda.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And this is the tricky...
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: The tricky part of gaining this insight with Neufeld,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: because what I can say,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: as a mom who,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: rolled back social transition with my child,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: the Neufeld model gave me the insight to realize I had been wrong,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: that my son was not
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: innately transgender.
• 15:16
  And it also gave me the tools of play to be able to deepen a
• 15:27
  hypersensitive,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: highly defended child's to soften his defenses,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: to nurture attachment.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: to get to a place where I could be that agent of futility to him.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't have done it without Neufeld.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't have done it without these insights and these tools.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: But there's this, this,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: this piece and especially with older children and or young adults where,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: that power or that,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: ability is,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: is not a guarantee,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: and it wasn't even necessarily a guarantee with my own son,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: like we can't,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: we can no longer,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: we can no longer give them necessarily that same futility.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or what do you think?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:55
  yeah i've got a few thoughts one what helped me in my new
• 17:04
  agenda right with my
• 17:07
  daughter was to acknowledge we were on the same side we both
• 17:14
  wanted the same thing
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: for her now parents are going to be like wait wait no we don't right
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: But you do.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: You both want what's best for your child.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Your child wants what's best for him or herself.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: They might have a different idea of what that is.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: But they want
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: They want to be healthy in the world.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: They want to be... Right.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: They want to feel good in their bodies.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: They want to engage.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: They want to be healthy in the world.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it looks different than you imagine that looking.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so finding that shared goal and acknowledging that...
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: that became something I said often, we both want what's best for you.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or I trust you want what's best for you,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: even if it looks different than what I think is best for you.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:28
  And acknowledging her capacity to figure this out for herself
• 18:33
  and that I wanted to
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: be alongside her.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's another aspect of this.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something I spend some time explaining to moms too.
• 18:48
  Once you have a persistently identified kiddo,
• 18:51
  the only way out is through.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that looks different for everybody,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: but they are going through an experience that is very important to them.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so to label that experience as wrong...
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know, it automatically puts them on the defensive.
• 19:19
  They're going to get through that experience in a safer way if
• 19:25
  they've got you alongside them.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean that you affirm the identity.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what, I also want to be clear about that.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what I'm saying.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: but that you affirm the experience they're having,
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: that it's painful,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: and that you want to be there with them.
• 19:50
  So the language does become important,
• 19:52
  but also that energy,
• 19:53
  that positioning.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's so helpful.
• 20:01
  And I think where I was kind of getting stuck in my trajectory
• 20:04
  of what I was saying was like,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: there's this,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: and maybe I can't articulate it clearly,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: but maybe it is a little bit of a paradox of these tools are critical,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: but they also can't guarantee an outcome.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's the agenda.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so sorry.
• 20:33
  If you're using these tools because you want to then convince
• 20:37
  your kid to let go of
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: the identity,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: they're going to sniff that out.
• 20:41
  They're going to know that that's what you're doing with these
• 20:44
  older kiddos.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it was different in your situation where it was a backing out.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it was something I had led him into, which I think...
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: put me in a place of responsibility around it to claim that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: So kind of,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: we also said,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: maybe we'll talk about Alpha a little bit today to,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: I had put him into Alpha around it initially as a very young child,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: where he was the one deciding,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: he was the one choosing.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that was,
• 21:18
  You know,
• 21:18
  that was,
• 21:19
  that relationship was then him in that lead and me following.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like me coming back into Alpha.
• 21:32
  You know,
• 21:33
  that was the dynamic at play in my story with him having
• 21:41
  socially transitioned.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it is, it does, it is a specific relationship.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: circumstance.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for parents who were not the lead,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: but you know,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: there's going to be different circumstances at play.
• 21:59
  So how then do we take this critical insight and take these
• 22:04
  tools and help them to
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: strengthen the attachment with our child and
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: knowing that that's kind of the best bet,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: their best bet,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: but also knowing that we can't coerce an outcome through that.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: We just can't.
• 22:30
  And to attempt,
• 22:31
  I think,
• 22:31
  to use that attachment to change their mind is going to be
• 22:39
  wounding.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: that said,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I will say there was some futility,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: and I don't know that I would recommend this,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: if I would do it differently today,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: as far as where I stood was very clear.
• 23:05
  Even though I felt like I could shift the agenda to being on
• 23:09
  the same side,
• 23:10
  because we did have a shared goal,
• 23:12
  you know,
• 23:13
  just different ideas of how to get there.
• 23:15
  I know she rested into the futility of this isn't happening
• 23:22
  while you are a child.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a very clear line early on and she could let that go.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of parents have put that line in place.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's something to be said about the coming alongside.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that that line has to be in place necessarily.
• 23:51
  You know,
• 23:51
  that there are other ways to move through the experience with
• 23:55
  your kiddo.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I paid a price to some degree for that futility.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: because of the,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: the cultural narratives,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: and my daughter not having the mother she wanted through that experience.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:22
  That there,
• 24:22
  there was a,
• 24:24
  a separation that was inevitably created through that.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:28
  And,
• 24:28
  and some of my behavior,
• 24:30
  to be honest,
• 24:30
  you know,
• 24:31
  like I,
• 24:32
  I own that I,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was not big enough in the beginning and,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: and I was needy and it,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: and in that need,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was scary.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I behaved in a way that was frightening for my child.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that hurts to think back on, you know, that is painful.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is also,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: if I might,
• 25:09
  like this is bringing to mind something else that has come up
• 25:16
  in the community.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to be, I don't know, not just the community.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting.
• 25:23
  We've been exploring love,
• 25:25
  you know,
• 25:27
  and a sentiment that came out was,
• 25:29
  and it wasn't enough.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Love wasn't enough.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I do wanna play with that a little bit.
• 25:44
  This idea that we have that if we had loved our children
• 25:48
  properly or enough that
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: they wouldn't have been vulnerable.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's the narrative.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And Rose, this frustrates me.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this is a damaging narrative.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: That somehow our love should have protected them from this exploration.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: So of course moms are beating themselves up.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's bullshit.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: Say more, say more, say more.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: I want to hear more of your thoughts on this.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well...
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I often refer to this as fate.
• 26:37
  We do not get to pick the time and place that we are of
• 26:45
  reproductive age,
• 26:46
  right?
• 26:46
  Like we had our children in this world,
• 26:50
  in this culture where this is on the table.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a confusing, chaotic time.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not... I don't think it...
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: To think that we could have prevented it is unhelpful, honestly.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it's unhelpful.
• 27:21
  And that the love and attachment that we did give our children
• 27:28
  is still working.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that if we can have some faith in that,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: rather than being swept away in the fear,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: because I think we've talked often about this,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: that fear that puts us in seeker mode is unhelpful.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that our children benefit from our faith in them.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And our faith in the way we did parent them.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:08
  And that them assuming a trans identity is not a statement on
• 28:12
  your parenting.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:19
  This just happens to be one of the problems,
• 28:23
  one of the many parenting problems
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: dilemmas, if you will.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know about dilemma, but, but challenges of the day.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:38
  That is so destabilizing for parents,
• 28:40
  you know,
• 28:41
  bringing up adolescence in today's world.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is that helpful?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if I've captured that enough.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, yeah, no, it's all, there's just so much, um,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: a couple of thoughts,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: I had this thing,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: I came up with my,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: to talk to my sons about this whole,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: cultural phenomenon,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: and this was after rolling back social transition after my son,
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: came to peace with being a boy and,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: this is years down the road,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:34
  Or a couple of years in,
• 29:35
  you know,
• 29:35
  I started,
• 29:36
  I think I've said this on the podcast before.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: I call it the die.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: I came up with this kind of right after rolling back social transition.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I tried, I'm like, how, how do I, how do I, how do I stay in alpha?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: How do I, how do I inspire trust and security?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: and rest in my two young children when I feel like I was,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: captivated by a cult-like belief and kind of victimized by it somehow?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: How do I stay, like, I've got this.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: I've got you.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm like in total and utter alarm.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm just going through so many destabilizing experiences.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: so how do I stay alpha while also taking responsibility for what was my,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: my actions with my own child?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: so what I,
• 30:41
  what I kind of came up with in that soup of change and
• 30:46
  destabilization and emotion
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: while trying to hold that steady presence is
• 30:53
  was calling this belief that a male can become a female or a
• 30:59
  female can become a male.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like as if it were a dye coloring people's brains.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's like,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: if you get the dye in your brain,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: your brain is called,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: and some,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: this is like funny.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Cause it's, it's, um,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: it also goes back.
• 31:17
  I kind of came up with this idea because this is a story about
• 31:20
  my son's childhood,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: my older son,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: when my son was going by she,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: her,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: identified as opposite sex,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: whatever you want to call it.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: He never trans was like,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: whatever,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: it was just like,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: I just,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just feel like a girl inside,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 31:35
  Um,
• 31:36
  so we sent him to this theater camp and this is this sensitive,
• 31:44
  sensitive child.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, um,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: At home, we never ate things with food dye.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: So there was like store-bought treats that were pink or had,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: we would say,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: there's dye in that,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know.
• 31:57
  So ends up when he's five years old,
• 31:59
  he's at this theater camp and they pass around Capri Suns.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: And he panics and he is like, I cannot drink this.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's dye in it.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: it was just like this,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 32:12
  this is how much he had internalized our avoidance of food dye
• 32:18
  that he was just
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: like in panic mode away from us for the,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: maybe one of the first times and he's being offered dye.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: So in my thought process, you know, this is years later, I'm like,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, he had this terrible aversion to dye.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was a concept.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then a lot of people have dyed hair who,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: it just,
• 32:41
  there was just something with like this childlike brain being
• 32:44
  able to understand a
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: visual.
• 32:47
  And it was,
• 32:48
  you know,
• 32:49
  so we,
• 32:49
  I just said,
• 32:50
  you know,
• 32:52
  your,
• 32:53
  you know,
• 32:54
  your other mom and I,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: when we went to college,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: we got the dye,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: we,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: everyone kind of had the dye and it colored our brains.
• 33:03
  And we started to think that males could be females and females
• 33:06
  could be males.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then that's kind of how we parented you, you know, with this belief.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: And we know,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: we no longer have it,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: we don't have the dye anymore,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: but you're going to be
• 33:19
  we have many people we love who have the dye,
• 33:22
  you know,
• 33:23
  and you're going to be going to school.
• 33:25
  People are going to be talking about the dye and they're going
• 33:27
  to believe in it,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: all of these things.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just,
• 33:29
  it was just a way of us kind of conceptualizing the social
• 33:32
  contagion or the social
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: phenomenon for their childlike understanding,
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm telling that story because it is like to be against this, right?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: as a parent and trying to like shepherd your child through it,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: it's like you have to remove,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: like it is so pervasive.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And as everybody listening to this knows,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: it has become so pervasive in law and culture and schools and churches.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 34:09
  where can you go where you're not going to be presented with
• 34:15
  this as if it's truth,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: as if it's
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: morally,
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: the only morally correct stance to have,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: like all of these layers of how pervasive this is,
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: so even for myself being like,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 34:29
  I'm going to call it this and they're going to have a visual
• 34:31
  and they're going to
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: kind of have some sort of critical thinking around it.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's still no guarantee.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's almost no guarantee.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know, you're, you're right.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's like,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: this,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: when it becomes something that is like someone's identity,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: like I feel like it is so internalized at that point.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: That there's almost no way to touch it.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying to give up.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying to throw in the towel.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying any of that to parents.
• 35:08
  I'm just saying,
• 35:10
  remembering that for your child,
• 35:13
  if it is at that layer of identity,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: it's going to be of their,
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: their,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: if they're experiencing it that way,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: for you to be against it,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how they don't experiences that as you being against them,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: intrinsically.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so many thoughts.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: I want to come back to the give up thing.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, please.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think in some ways I am encouraging that,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: but I want to be more specific about what that means.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: But also back to the,
• 36:00
  it's so pervasive because this is another narrative that they
• 36:04
  have from the gender
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: critical world that trans identity equals self-hatred.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I would even push back on pathologizing it at all.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just in terms of whether or not it's helpful because it's so scary.
• 36:34
  You know,
• 36:35
  now fear tends to be driving the bus if we believe it's
• 36:41
  maladaptive.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I am not convinced of that because, again, it's so pervasive.
• 36:54
  Because when adolescents are going through identity
• 36:58
  development,
• 36:58
  they're going to try things on.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this one is, there's so many benefits to it.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Culturally, right?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many cultural benefits to this identity.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:16
  And this brings me back to actually something I did want to
• 37:18
  bring up again was your
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: story about put the board on the ground.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because these narratives around the identity...
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: if my child is trans identified, it means they hate themselves.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: The sort of automatic,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: this equals this,
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: or,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: and I can,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 37:43
  I understand recognizing it's not necessarily helping to expand
• 37:48
  their world,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: but in some cases it is.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: And some moms have been able to look at it and say,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: this is really working for my kid right now.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: As much as I hate it.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: for sure.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is working.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: But that fear, we tend to...
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: put that board up on the skyscrapers, right?
• 38:13
  So you were explaining how the higher that board is,
• 38:17
  the scarier it is to be on the board.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And can we bring that board down, lower the stakes?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because that fear will put us in seeker mode.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that was something I'm so grateful I was able to recognize.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I bring fear to the table, I push my kid away.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: every single time.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Every single time our fear scares them.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: So lowering the stakes on this.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that you can come alongside them.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise you're going to be tempted to drag them where you want to go,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: push them where you want them to go.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: The energy is going to be very different.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: The positioning is going to be very different.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I do encourage giving up that agenda.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: it doesn't mean that you are on board with the identity,
• 39:19
  but it does recognize the limits of what you can do when you
• 39:24
  are especially dealing
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: with a late adolescent or young adult child.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we want to convey faith in them.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And in their capacity to move through things like this.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Along with conveying that I'm here for you.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't,
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: it does not mean that you,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: there's just,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think there can be a lot of black and white thinking.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're either against it or you're for it.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's this or it's this.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's playing a completely different game.
• 40:11
  And it's a game you're likely to lose when you're dealing with
• 40:15
  an adult child.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: And oh my gosh,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: if anyone is online in any capacity in the gender wars,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: you are almost guaranteed to be put into the either or war framework.
• 40:39
  And even like me saying these things has people convinced I am
• 40:44
  now an affirming mom.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: That I've switched camps, you know?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's all attachment.
• 40:56
  I mean,
• 40:57
  this is the thing is that when we're locked in to seeking
• 41:03
  orientation and,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: through kind of this parasocial peer in our own way,
• 41:14
  kind of peer orientation with these online influencers and
• 41:21
  accounts and drama and,
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: all of it,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: like our attachment needs are going to be locked in to approval,
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: mattering loyalty and,
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: getting those attachment needs met through online parasocial dynamics.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: that's where we,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: I have had to remind myself so many times over the past few years,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know these people.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like I actually don't,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 41:57
  and I know people are now going to conferences and are part of
• 42:00
  support groups.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: So there are more real relationships out there.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's not to say that,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: people don't know each other per se,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: but there's been times when I,
• 42:12
  a couple of times when I've gone to events or gatherings and
• 42:15
  I've met online
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: personalities for the first time and I'm like,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't actually like that person.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like now that I'm in the same room, I, I don't feel a bond.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't feel trust or,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't feel good.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: and that's not true for everyone I've met,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: but like there's,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: we just,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: I just encourage everyone to like,
• 42:41
  I had a friend come visit me when I was in the midst of like my
• 42:46
  whole intense
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: extreme destabilization period where I was just like online,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: online,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: online,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: online,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: online.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I start talking to her and just unloading.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: She's a friend who I could say anything to.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: She was not going to leave me.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: Talk about loyalty,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: and maturity that she,
• 43:03
  I was becoming very different from her politically and she's
• 43:07
  still stuck by my
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: side.
• 43:09
  So I just unloaded on her and I'm talking about so-and-so and
• 43:11
  this and that,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: and this person and that person.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: And like, at some point she said,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: She was like, all right.
• 43:20
  So what I just observed is you talking about all the people
• 43:24
  you're talking about
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: right now,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: you don't,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: you don't actually know them.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're not your actual, you have no relationship to them, you know?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just very helpful.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was very helpful to have that sort of wake up call to be like,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: Where are my attachments right now?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Where am I seeking...
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: intimacy and valuing and belonging and mattering.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in that period,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: it was,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: for good reason,
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: because I was losing a lot of my old community.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I think, you know, we've talked about it in this at other times.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:14
  for parents who's all of a sudden not affirming means loss of
• 44:19
  friendships,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: loss of peer relationships,
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: loss of family members sometimes.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: we are so destabilized that where do we go but online?
• 44:30
  Where do we,
• 44:31
  and that's how we find commonality again,
• 44:33
  or we find sameness and belonging.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it's,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to pathologize that either,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: but I just want to remind everybody that like,
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: if we met face to face,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: we're not,
• 44:48
  it's not a guarantee that the people we're most influenced by
• 44:51
  are people that we
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: actually
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: would want to be friends if we lived next door.
• 45:00
  Like I just,
• 45:01
  there's,
• 45:01
  we don't know that,
• 45:03
  you know,
• 45:03
  when we only have the online.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 45:07
  It's just been helpful for myself to remind,
• 45:10
  to have that reality check always.
• 45:15
  So I can have some distance from my own needs of attachment to
• 45:20
  be met through
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: people I don't really have a relationship to.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that is what drives us to then say,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: if this person is saying it's a war,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: it's a war.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: And if this person is saying it's either or,
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: I better fall in line because I, I, they, I, I'm attached.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm,
• 45:43
  I'm looking to them for orienting and guidance and all of those
• 45:47
  things that
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: attachment does.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, I'm kind of.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's, it's very tribal.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's the loyalty level.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: when we're talking about longing,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: it's try,
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: if we stay at that level,
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: if we don't go deeper,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: where we can,
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: we don't have to be on the same side as to still love someone.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: it's interesting that you use deeper,
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I think transcend,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: transcend that tribal tendency.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:30
  And that strong sense of identity,
• 46:33
  potentially,
• 46:35
  right,
• 46:36
  as gender critical.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: The right and wrong of it.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: In order to be able to come alongside.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: and this is really relevant as well.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 47:08
  there's a bit of a conversation about friendships also going on
• 47:12
  in the tapestry
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: right now.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: you,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: you brought up your friend and I,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: this was a journey with my best friend too,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: of 30 plus years,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:36
  um her she and her husband have been family friends for my
• 47:41
  children's entire lives
• 47:43
  you know they are like family members to my children godparents
• 47:49
  even you know for
• 47:50
  lack of a better term you know there that that was the
• 47:53
  understanding there is if
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: something happened to us then they'd care for our kids
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: they do not see themselves as gender critical.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to really grapple with that.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was difficult.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it was similar in that I know she grappled too.
• 48:20
  I don't know about her husband so much,
• 48:21
  but he and I had many long conversations about this.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it helped me to kind of see that
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: the effects of the dye, I suppose.
• 48:34
  And I think many have seen that,
• 48:35
  you know,
• 48:36
  where just the words can't even penetrate.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 48:44
  But I also knew they also had the same goal and wanted what was
• 48:49
  best for my children.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: That they love my children that way.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that we were on the same side, even if we disagreed.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: On this topic.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember having moments of,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 49:12
  can I stay in this friendship if they are unable to see this
• 49:20
  through my eyes?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, they were not able to see this through my eyes.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't spend a lot of time talking about it.
• 49:32
  And like my other family members,
• 49:35
  they have their own relationships with my kids.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to recognize I don't get to orchestrate that.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that can mess with that loyalty level of attachment.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:57
  I also want to acknowledge,
• 49:58
  you know,
• 49:58
  that many people do feel wounded by their friends.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that friendships, like everything else, they do come and go.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 50:16
  And they might experience their friends also feeling that need
• 50:20
  to persuade,
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: because it can feel very threatening.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: to, to have a friend not see things the same way, right?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is so destabilizing.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's so destabilizing,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: and when our,
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: our sense of wellbeing depends on other people seeing it our way,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: that can,
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: that can end up,
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: I guess drive driving the relationship.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because it, it feels too destabilizing, right.
• 50:59
  Too threatening to be around people who see things
• 51:05
  fundamentally differently.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: It can be so hard.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 51:10
  and it's fine to assess the energy that that takes and whether
• 51:14
  that's where you
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: want to spend your time and be okay with like,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know what?
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: I, I,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I would just be mindful of when the criteria is tribal,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: when it's more about the belief system than it is about whether you just,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: like you said,
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: like your friend said,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: enjoy this person's company.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the relationship is nourishing.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think, you know, this is part of maturity.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: I say the deepening,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: because I'm thinking about those six roots of attachment.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: the layer,
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: and we'll be going more into this in our upcoming episodes,
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: or coming back to it,
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: because we covered it in season one.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, those roots going deeper.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: And as they do,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: if we think about this with that motor of maturation,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: that feeling of fulfillment,
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: being ongoing and secure,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: and reaching deeper intimacy,
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: that is part of what's going to be allowing us,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: to become our own person at the same time.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: and anyways,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: maybe I'm not making the right connection here,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: but it takes me to that integrated functioning,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: that aspect of maturity,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: because,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: and we're seeing that black and white or we're certain,
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: we have that certainty.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm right.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: I can't doubt, you know, two things.
• 53:27
  There can't be an on the one hand and on the other hand,
• 53:30
  you know,
• 53:31
  and I think that that's,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of what drives online engagement,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: is just,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: whether purposefully,
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: probably part of it is purposeful,
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: even if they don't totally understand what they're doing.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I think they're,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: what gets the most clicks,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: what gets the most viral,
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: it's driven off of these,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: whether there are primal emotions,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: or there are attachments.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: Emotion is the engine.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, the certainty, this level of certainty.
• 54:07
  And so it's just something to try to be aware of,
• 54:10
  you know,
• 54:11
  just a distance.
• 54:12
  Take one little inch of distance from as we're considering the
• 54:17
  perspectives that
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: are being shared,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think ultimately, and we've talked about this before, you know,
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, I have so many thoughts at the same time.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: I know, me too.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: Part of this journey of how,
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: come back to this original question,
• 54:40
  how do I come alongside without implying that I'm supporting
• 54:47
  social or medical
• 54:48
  transition or that I'm affirming that my child can be the
• 54:52
  opposite sex or,
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: whatever it may be,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: whatever your child may be,
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: identifying as or wanting to do.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: So part of this journey of like, that's like that.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: It brings us back to that.
• 55:09
  You know,
• 55:09
  we're talking about attachment here coming alongside through
• 55:12
  loyalty.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: We're also talking about integrity versus diplomacy.
• 55:16
  How do I maintain this relationship while holding the integrity
• 55:20
  of either if I'm
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: presenting them with a futility or
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: you cannot medically transition before 18 or no,
• 55:31
  I'm not going to support you using a different name and
• 55:35
  pronouns at school,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: or I love you.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: I know this is really important to you,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: but you know,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see it the same way and I'm concerned about your wellbeing,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: whatever that integrity aspect is for you.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this whole thing is like,
• 55:52
  this crucible as we've talked about of like of coming into our
• 55:57
  own maturity.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also a crucible.
• 56:02
  I think when we talk about these peer dynamics of putting our
• 56:07
  relationship to our
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: child first,
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: we may lose those friends that cannot believe that we're not affirming.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: But we also are going to have another side of this to do with our peers,
• 56:25
  which is that gender critical world that we may find that new
• 56:28
  sense of belonging
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: with,
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: a new tribe with.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_02: But at a certain point,
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: is there also some,
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: individuating we have to do there where we say,
• 56:42
  are some of these dynamics pulling me out of relationship to my
• 56:47
  child too?
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a long curvy as, you know, weave to get there, but it's like,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's just so many things happening here at once,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: but it's like,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: if my focus is on,
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: I am my child's best bet.
• 57:10
  What,
• 57:11
  what is needed for me to nurture that relationship as best as I
• 57:16
  am able.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: Within the realities that exist,
• 57:20
  I am going to have to put that before the social acceptance
• 57:27
  from either tribe,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: essentially.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what does that look like?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: How do I need to do that?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I love that.
• 57:40
  And I think that it's actually something you can exercise your
• 57:45
  agency with today.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that there are very, very recognizable cues that
• 58:01
  that tell you is what you are engaging in putting that board on
• 58:09
  the skyscrapers,
• 58:10
  right?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it lifting the board,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: jacking up your fear and strengthening your agenda,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: to,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: to steer your kid's life,
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: get them out of this,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: that that is,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 58:32
  That is going to interfere with the relationship and with your
• 58:36
  ability to be your
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: child's best bet.
• 58:40
  So what are you feeding your attention that increases your
• 58:49
  faith in your own
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: capacity,
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: your faith in your child,
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: your faith in that connection?
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your faith that you're big enough to be beside them.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just paying attention.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you spending your time?
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: And is it making you feel more anxious and more afraid?
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: More righteous even?
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or does it increase that faith?
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I do love the deep, the deepening.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: I do like the idea of...
• 59:37
  I like speaking of shapes,
• 59:39
  you know,
• 59:40
  and,
• 59:40
  and,
• 59:41
  and I'm thinking of peer attachment here too.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like we think that we connect by going horizontally.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when we feel really connected,
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: it's through the root system,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: it's through that sense that we are all actually connected.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the roots.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's under the ground.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of faith in that when we are tapped in in that way.
• 1:00:14
  And I guess the other thing that came to mind through this last
• 1:00:20
  bit of our
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: conversation is the wounding.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: that we have felt in our friend groups.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that same sort of idea of somebody trying to persuade us,
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: having an agenda in the relationship instead of being safe,
• 1:00:45
  where we feel safe to have our own opinions and safe to express
• 1:00:49
  ourselves without
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: fearing the loss of the relationship.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's huge.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's different than I think the tribal drivers, you know.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: I can only be around people who agree with me.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: And part of it, right, in the same way.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's why we work so hard to persuade others, I think.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: So what are the relationships that...
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: you do feel safe to be yourself,
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: especially when you're destabilized like this,
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: down the road,
• 1:01:41
  maybe you can feel a little more equanimity around people who
• 1:01:46
  disagree with you.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: But if you are.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to, to tend to your needs.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: this is a bit of a sidebar,
• 1:02:06
  but I shared with you this summer that I was seeing a couple of
• 1:02:10
  friends who I
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: hadn't seen in four years.
• 1:02:14
  And it was just kind of like,
• 1:02:16
  quote unquote,
• 1:02:16
  the universe,
• 1:02:17
  the stars aligned.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it was an opportunity that I was like, I have to be brave here.
• 1:02:26
  Because we were going to be in the same place at the same time
• 1:02:28
  with mutual friends.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like, okay.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I needed four years.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: I needed four years,
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: and it's I feel,
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_02: happy that I was able to see them and reconnect.
• 1:02:47
  But I'm also very,
• 1:02:49
  very,
• 1:02:50
  very,
• 1:02:50
  very grateful that I allow I have allowed myself the distance.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: to be able to then re-engage in a different way,
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: in a different position,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: as you spoke to,
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: of my own confidence,
• 1:03:10
  my own being able to maintain boundaries and integrity and love
• 1:03:15
  them and just
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: really love them despite our differences.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:03:26
  But also not losing that sense of who I am and what I feel very
• 1:03:34
  clear about.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've kind of come to that too.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, how do you be in relationship?
• 1:03:45
  And at first I want to say that strong sense of self that
• 1:03:49
  you're describing that
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: took four years.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: Four years.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: four years.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that does come from deep roots.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: That is the going deeper.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: I am rooted.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: I am grounded in my values.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm clear on what those are.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not threatened by other people's values anymore.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's part of this.
• 1:04:13
  And that gives you the capacity to be big enough to love them
• 1:04:19
  where they are.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: And can that be
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: Can that be the criteria?
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like loving authenticity, you know?
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: I like that as, how do I have a loving, authentic conversation?
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when you are deeply rooted,
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: you kind of find there's,
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: you don't have the agenda anymore.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: The agenda goes away.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of the fallout of
• 1:04:55
  of this tribal tendency is that certainty of being in the right
• 1:05:06
  camp and then the
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: need to persuade others.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not gonna feel good in relationship.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:05:25
  I want to say something that unless you have something else on
• 1:05:28
  that topic,
• 1:05:29
  because otherwise I'm going to bring something that's just kind
• 1:05:32
  of moving backwards
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: a little bit in the conversation,
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_02: but on a slightly different topic.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm done.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: Did it make sense?
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: Making sense there.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, lay it on me.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_01: What you thinking?
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you were speaking a little earlier to fear,
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: kind of that fear driver,
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: and how that pushes our kids away when we're in that place of alarm,
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: and we want to make sure everything's okay.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: and we,
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: that we're,
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: we're working,
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: we've got this primal emotion alarm,
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: and it's,
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: and we're seeking that sense of safety from them,
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I just want to share with the,
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_02: just say,
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_02: I shared this with you before we started recording.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: I, I was not prepared for the,
• 1:06:36
  huge emotional impact that my older son going to middle school
• 1:06:40
  would have on me so
• 1:06:42
  i have been like an wreck an emotional wreck like there's and
• 1:06:47
  there's not just the
• 1:06:47
  only dynamic at play but you know i just wasn't prepared i knew
• 1:06:52
  it'd be a big
• 1:06:52
  change for him but i feel like for me it's like all of these
• 1:06:55
  fears of you know
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: is he fitting in socially?
• 1:07:02
  You know,
• 1:07:02
  I,
• 1:07:03
  you know,
• 1:07:03
  I can't even just the,
• 1:07:04
  I think it's also just watching him grow up.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: it's hard to discern and pull out what's what,
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: what is like a legitimate,
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: is he socially fitting in enough or is he very unhappy,
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_02: but like defended against it?
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_02: How is he being treated?
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_02: all of those fears,
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: but there's,
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's also,
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_02: I just am not as intimately involved with his school.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what's going on there.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_02: and his own adolescence,
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_02: unfolding,
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_02: which is also going to,
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_02: have him pull away from us more,
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_02: in,
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: in,
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: in moments in time,
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_03: and,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_02: So anyways, I've been grappling with all my own emotions about it.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I sit with myself and I say,
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_02: holy cow,
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_02: it would be so easy to just lock into a pattern here.
• 1:08:05
  And there's no transgender identity involved,
• 1:08:07
  but just this dynamic of like,
• 1:08:11
  fear driving my desperate desire to connect with him and it not
• 1:08:17
  working,
• 1:08:20
  you know?
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so what has helped me most,
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:08:25
  besides like kind of having a semblance of awareness around
• 1:08:29
  that is to just find
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_02: these,
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: go back to the things that I know he likes and,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of like,
• 1:08:37
  we have to have a conversation in the car that's him sharing
• 1:08:41
  about his day,
• 1:08:41
  kind of this classic example of like a parent trying to connect
• 1:08:46
  with their
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: adolescent child,
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: I know that when he gets home,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: he loves going back in the backyard to play wiffle ball.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: And if I can, how do I go throw pitches?
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's a goofiness there.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: There's a play there.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe there's this card game that he's into right now.
• 1:09:09
  How do I find those 20 minutes or that half hour to just...
• 1:09:13
  We don't have to talk about his day.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: We can just...
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_02: play this card game, you know?
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: so just anyways,
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: I just,
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: for some reason that was like,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: when you were talking about that fear driving,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to say like on a very personal level right now,
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: I can identify with that so strongly.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: because I feel it.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_02: I feel it in me.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm,
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm aware enough to know that that's not going to work,
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_02: but it,
• 1:09:42
  I feel the struggle so intensely right now of like how to work
• 1:09:47
  through that with me
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: inside myself and how to work with it at relationally,
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_02: with my son as,
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: as he's in this period of life,
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_02: With so many unknowns, just so many unknowns.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: So many unknowns.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_01: that transports me back to what I refer to as the early days,
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: with my daughter in this.
• 1:10:25
  And I can see so clearly now,
• 1:10:27
  it certainly wasn't as clear back then,
• 1:10:29
  how I would get online.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:32
  you know that originally i could be curious and when we were
• 1:10:39
  just together just her
• 1:10:40
  and me it felt connected and then i would go and i'd get online
• 1:10:48
  and i would terrify
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: myself and i would take that fear to her and and i would do damage
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I also want to just acknowledge what it takes over the long term.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Parenting is so hard.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that the self-doubt persists, you know?
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And how much the crumbs mean to me, even.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I always... Where I go into doubt is how...
• 1:11:36
  how few times they reach out for my support,
• 1:11:39
  you know,
• 1:11:39
  now that they are young adults.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, do they feel supported?
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these are the questions that go through my mind.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_01: When they're having a hard time, will they reach out?
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Did I do enough, you know, to make sure they know that I'm on their side?
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I see them,
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:12:00
  struggling through things that I would love to be able to
• 1:12:02
  support them through.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And doing that dance of do I insert myself?
• 1:12:12
  Just the self-doubt and how persistent it is and how precious
• 1:12:18
  the crumbs are.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think about the times where my son,
• 1:12:22
  I know it was scary for him to have a mom who thought so
• 1:12:28
  differently than what he
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_01: thought.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: understood to be right, you know, and sticking to that.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the futility was.
• 1:12:40
  I think oftentimes it was just like,
• 1:12:42
  I wish I could be the mom you want me to be.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do it.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it wouldn't feel right to me.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: But lately he's
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_01: He has,
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: like we just,
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I took him to lunch recently and he shared something and asked,
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: he asked me,
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: what do you think,
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_01: mom?
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And had no idea how meaningful that was to me,
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_01: that he would ask after doubting me for so long,
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And just,
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: what it takes to hang in there,
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_01: even with this awareness,
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_01: even learning this attachment.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Model and applying it and how it can feel like it's not working.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to encourage trusting that it is.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Even when it appears like it's not, you know, even when the evidence...
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't seem to support that it's working,
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: that it does,
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: that that attachment is working in them.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:14:09
  even if it looks messy,
• 1:14:11
  even if it looks,
• 1:14:13
  you know,
• 1:14:15
  and my son is not trans identified,
• 1:14:17
  right?
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's my daughter, but this, it doesn't, this applies to all of it.
• 1:14:23
  Like you said,
• 1:14:23
  it's all attachment,
• 1:14:25
  you know,
• 1:14:27
  but hang in there,
• 1:14:28
  I guess is what I'm saying.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it is working.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Have faith in that.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe that's where you put your faith.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's interesting.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Earlier you said about the transcendent,
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_02: and then we talked about the depth,
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_02: and it's interesting because both are unseen.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Both are unseen, and so it does require...
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_02: it does require some faith that underneath,
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:15:05
  our efforts are nurturing those roots and that in something up
• 1:15:10
  above as well,
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_02: that there's,
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_02: something where that plant is reaching towards to help,
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_02: that hopefully will bear fruit,
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know.
• 1:15:23
  And,
• 1:15:25
  you know,
• 1:15:26
  we just got to keep doing our part,
• 1:15:29
  you know,
• 1:15:35
  along the way.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And who knows what that fruit might be.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there's the wonder and the mystery,
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_01: as long as we recognize what our role is meant to be.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that we might think we know the fruit.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And can we...
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_01: can we check our own certainty there?
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_01: You brought up certainty a few times,
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: we're certain what that fruit is going to look like,
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe it's something totally different and better.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And fruit is not something that we,
• 1:16:31
  sculpt you can't sculpt an apple or an orange or a passion
• 1:16:36
  fruit i don't know if
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_02: that's helpful but that's what comes to mind for me yeah right right
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can sculpt one, but you can't.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's not fruit then.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_02: What is the unique shape?
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_02: What is the unique flavor, texture?
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_02: What is that unique expression?
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:06
  And knowing that,
• 1:17:07
  like we said last time,
• 1:17:09
  it will be a tapestry woven with both joy and pain.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it will be beautiful.
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:17:35
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• 1:17:38
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• 1:17:40
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• 1:17:42
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• 1:17:45
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• 1:17:47
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• 1:17:48
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• 1:17:51
  comments and hope you
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.