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Mega Edition: Bryan Kohberger And The Incel Theory (9/5/26) · Beyond The Horizon

0:00
Speaker 1: And welcome back to the program. Much and more has
0:04
Speaker 1: been made about Brian Koberger possibly being an incel. Now,
0:10
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm 100% sold on the theory,
0:13
Speaker 1: but it's quite possible. When you hear about the way
0:16
Speaker 1: he treated women, you hear about how he was treated
0:19
Speaker 1: by girls when he was younger, and then you hear
0:22
Speaker 1: about how he was a loner, there were no women
0:25
Speaker 1: in his life. I know there's been some reports about
0:28
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger allegedly having women over at his house, reports
0:32
Speaker 1: about some Asian girl, but none of that's corroborated, right? So,
0:38
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, Brian Koberger is certainly on
0:42
Speaker 1: the margins of what we would call an incel. So,
0:47
Speaker 1: what exactly is an incel? According to Wikipedia, an incel
0:52
Speaker 1: is a member of an online subculture of people who
0:55
Speaker 1: define themselves as unable to get a romantic, or a
0:59
Speaker 1: sexual partner despite desiring one, or in layman's terms, somebody
1:03
Speaker 1: who can't get laid. Discussions in incel forums are often
1:07
Speaker 1: characterized by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity, and self-loathing, racism,
1:15
Speaker 1: a sense of entitlement to sex, and endorsement of violence
1:19
Speaker 1: against women and sexually active people. Now imagine having that
1:23
Speaker 1: kind of brain pattern making its way through your brain.
1:27
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so I can't get laid, so let me
1:29
Speaker 1: go and kill a bunch of women and some dudes
1:31
Speaker 1: who are sexually active as well.
1:33
Speaker 2: Here's an idea.
1:34
Speaker 1: Get your shit together, stop being an ingrate, get off
1:38
Speaker 1: of the computer for five minutes, clean the Cheetos off
1:40
Speaker 1: your hands, and then maybe you'll get a date. The
1:44
Speaker 1: American Southern Poverty Law Center described the subculture as part
1:48
Speaker 1: of an online male supremacist ecosystem that is included in
1:52
Speaker 1: their list of hate groups. Incels are mostly male and heterosexual,
1:57
Speaker 1: and are often white. Estimates of the overall size of
2:01
Speaker 1: the subculture vary greatly, ranging from thousands to hundreds of
2:05
Speaker 1: thousands of individuals. Since 2014, multiple mass killings have been
2:11
Speaker 1: perpetrated by self-identified incels, as well as other instances of
2:16
Speaker 1: violence or attempted violence. Incel communities have been increasingly criticized
2:21
Speaker 1: by scholars and commentators for their misogyny, the condoning and
2:26
Speaker 1: encouragement of violence, and extremism. So that's what an incel is,
2:32
Speaker 1: according to Wikipedia. Now, as I said in the opening,
2:36
Speaker 1: I have my doubts if I would classify Brian Koberger
2:39
Speaker 1: as your prototypical incel, but old boy was certainly on
2:44
Speaker 1: the margins. So today, we have an article from Airmail,
2:49
Speaker 1: and the headline of this article is Idaho, Instagram, and incels.
2:55
Speaker 1: The alleged Moscow student murderer's behavior is straight out of
2:58
Speaker 1: the incel playbook. This article was authored by Nancy Jo Sales.
3:06
Speaker 1: On Instagram, Madison Mogan showed us a certain kind of
3:10
Speaker 1: perfect life. Whatever struggle she may have endured before falling
3:13
Speaker 1: victim to a killer one morning in Moscow, Idaho on
3:17
Speaker 1: November 13th, on Instagram, she is always smiling. Her account
3:22
Speaker 1: is like a prototype for what social media culture demands
3:25
Speaker 1: of young women and girls. That they look happy, sexy,
3:29
Speaker 1: occasionally pensive, and above all, enviable. And I think that's
3:34
Speaker 1: true of most people online, right? Most people and their
3:38
Speaker 1: online life, that's like a highlight reel. It's not showing
3:41
Speaker 1: you all the gritty, dirty parts of it that all
3:44
Speaker 1: of us go through. It's just giving you that highlight
3:47
Speaker 1: reel of people's lives that they.
3:49
Speaker 2: Want you to see.
3:52
Speaker 1: Mogan, 21, shows us the life of a pretty, blonde
3:55
Speaker 1: American college girl, a popular sorority girl. She was a
3:59
Speaker 1: member of Pi Beta Phi. She poses in formals and
4:03
Speaker 1: bikinis and the cutest outfits, as she describes them, often
4:07
Speaker 1: popping her foot or bending down playfully, touching her knees.
4:11
Speaker 1: She strides gaily into a building at the University of
4:14
Speaker 1: Idaho in a post she captioned, Heaven is a place
4:18
Speaker 1: on Earth. She visits Cabo and Jamaica with friends. many
4:22
Speaker 1: of them blonde young women who resemble her. Lucky me,
4:26
Speaker 1: I have the best friends ever. Mogan captioned the picture
4:29
Speaker 1: of herself going jet skiing with two other blondes. Beautiful, cute, stunning, gorge,
4:36
Speaker 1: her friends commented on her posts, fulfilling their duty per
4:39
Speaker 1: social media conventions to comment enthusiastically and with many emojis. See,
4:46
Speaker 1: this stuff is foreign to me, folks. When we start
4:48
Speaker 1: getting down to like the social media, and the cultivating
4:51
Speaker 1: of likes and all of that, that's just not something
4:54
Speaker 1: I'm interested in. And I know I'm missing the boat
4:57
Speaker 1: financially by not being more active on social media, but
5:01
Speaker 1: it's just not my bag. I'm really not into it,
5:03
Speaker 1: all the drama, all the arguing, and all of the bullshit.
5:07
Speaker 1: It's just not for me. As a 43-year-old man, those
5:11
Speaker 1: days are long over for your boy. That was the
5:14
Speaker 1: kind of shit I was doing on AOL in 1999.
5:18
Speaker 1: So I just can't get involved in all of that nonsense.
5:21
Speaker 1: But when you talk about social media and the appearance
5:25
Speaker 1: and the persona you're trying to pass, it's a huge
5:28
Speaker 1: deal for the younger generation, right? Everybody wants to keep
5:32
Speaker 1: up with the Joneses. It's chilling now to think that
5:35
Speaker 1: Brian Kohlberger could have been watching all this, seeing Mogan
5:38
Speaker 1: with her sweet smile and twinkling eyes, living her seemingly
5:42
Speaker 1: perfect life. You wonder if it made him angry, jealous?
5:47
Speaker 1: Was Instagram for him? Like a gallery of women to date?
5:50
Speaker 1: Or perhaps target for violence? And that's something we've talked
5:54
Speaker 1: about here on the podcast previously. All of these social
5:58
Speaker 1: media accounts, that's a fertile ground for these sickos. Before,
6:02
Speaker 1: they'd actually have to leave their house to find targets.
6:05
Speaker 1: Now they can just hop on the internet from wherever
6:07
Speaker 1: they are and go about it that way. Koberger28, formerly
6:13
Speaker 1: a graduate student at Washington State University... has been accused
6:16
Speaker 1: of killing Mogan and her roommates, Kaylee Gonsalves and Zanna Kernodle,
6:21
Speaker 1: as well as Kernodle's boyfriend, Ethan Chapin, entering the girl's
6:25
Speaker 1: house around 4 a.m. and stabbing them to death in
6:28
Speaker 1: their beds. A story that Air Mail contributor, Howard Bloom,
6:32
Speaker 1: detailed in this publication. In January, people reported that Kohlberger
6:38
Speaker 1: had followed the three females on Instagram and about two
6:41
Speaker 1: weeks before the murders, messaged one of them repeatedly. He
6:45
Speaker 1: was definitely persistent, said an investigative source on the case.
6:49
Speaker 1: He slid into one of the girls' DMs several times,
6:52
Speaker 1: but she didn't respond. Basically, it was just him saying, hey,
6:56
Speaker 1: how are you? But he did it again and again.
7:00
Speaker 1: And now we know, or at least we've heard from sources,
7:03
Speaker 1: that he also had the picture of one of the
7:06
Speaker 1: victims on his cell phone. And as we discussed in
7:10
Speaker 1: the previous articles, I think that person was Madison. When
7:16
Speaker 1: we look at everything and we go back and evaluate
7:19
Speaker 1: using hindsight, it certainly seems clear to me now that
7:22
Speaker 1: Madison was the original and intended target. Now, of course,
7:27
Speaker 1: I can't prove that, right? I don't have the facts
7:30
Speaker 1: to back that up. I'm just going by the circumstantial
7:33
Speaker 1: evidence that is available to us. And according to that
7:37
Speaker 1: evidence that has been provided, it certainly seems to me
7:40
Speaker 1: that Madison Mogan was the target here. Having a random
7:45
Speaker 1: guy slide into their DMs, direct messages, wouldn't cause most
7:49
Speaker 1: women alarm.
7:50
Speaker 2: However creepy, it's.
7:51
Speaker 1: Now viewed as a regular feature of modern dating, with
7:54
Speaker 1: magazines and YouTube videos advising men on what types of
7:59
Speaker 1: messages to send in order to get a response. Most
8:02
Speaker 1: women will simply ignore the guy, which is what Mogan
8:06
Speaker 1: reportedly did. You wonder if being ignored made Koberger irate.
8:11
Speaker 1: I'm sure it played a part. I'm definitely sure it
8:13
Speaker 1: played a part. but there was a lot of other
8:15
Speaker 1: things going on as well. He had the issues at work,
8:19
Speaker 1: all of that pressure, and if he had these fantasies
8:22
Speaker 1: bubbling within him, that could have easily led to those
8:26
Speaker 1: fantasies becoming reality. The police haven't told us the motive
8:31
Speaker 1: in this case, but it seems like everybody has a theory.
8:34
Speaker 1: Women I've spoken to have said since the story broke
8:38
Speaker 1: that they believe the Idaho student murders were committed by
8:41
Speaker 1: someone who hates women. And that's certainly something that's been
8:44
Speaker 1: thrown out there from the very beginning of this. We've
8:47
Speaker 1: talked about the incel theory before. And like I said then,
8:51
Speaker 1: it's certainly something that has to be discussed. We can't
8:54
Speaker 1: just discount the theory without knowing, right? You see, the
8:58
Speaker 1: thing is, we just don't know who Brian Koberger really
9:01
Speaker 1: is yet. There's not been enough information provided. Sure, we've
9:05
Speaker 1: had some accounts from people who used to know him,
9:07
Speaker 1: from people who were going to school with him. But
9:10
Speaker 1: who is Brian Koberger? what his motivations are, what he
9:14
Speaker 1: was thinking at the time. If he is the man
9:16
Speaker 1: who did this, let's remember, there's always a little bit
9:19
Speaker 1: of headroom for him not even to be the guy.
9:21
Speaker 1: We always got to keep that in mind. But who
9:24
Speaker 1: was Brian Kohlberger? And what would lead somebody to do
9:28
Speaker 1: something like this? That is the million-dollar question. And so far,
9:33
Speaker 1: we don't have any answers. Which, unfortunately, wouldn't be surprising.
9:38
Speaker 1: Femicide is an under-discussed problem in the United States. where
9:42
Speaker 1: nearly three women are murdered every day, most often by
9:45
Speaker 1: current or former intimate partners. And that's why at the
9:48
Speaker 1: very beginning of this, when we first heard about what
9:51
Speaker 1: was going on, I thought that it was going to
9:54
Speaker 1: end up being somebody that one of these girls were dating. But, obviously,
9:59
Speaker 1: it turned out to be something completely different. And just
10:02
Speaker 1: because the usual statistics say that it's an intimate partner
10:06
Speaker 1: or somebody that they know, we can't just hang our
10:09
Speaker 1: hat on that and think that that's going to be
10:12
Speaker 1: the case every single time.
10:15
Speaker 2: In the Idaho case.
10:16
Speaker 1: It was the look of the victims that first raised
10:18
Speaker 1: suspicions that this was a hate crime.
10:21
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if I agree with that.
10:23
Speaker 1: I think that any time you have three girls murdered,
10:26
Speaker 1: you have to ask yourself if it was some kind
10:28
Speaker 1: of misogynist knucklehead who was behind all of it. Unfortunately,
10:32
Speaker 1: that's the society we live in. There was the fact
10:36
Speaker 1: that this happened in a house full of attractive girls.
10:39
Speaker 1: Chapin was just visiting. And the nature of the killings,
10:42
Speaker 1: by knife, as the victims lay in bed, seemed like
10:45
Speaker 1: a horrifying substitute for rape. A former FBI agent, Jennifer Kofendaffer,
10:51
Speaker 1: told Newsweek days before Koberger was arrested that she believed
10:55
Speaker 1: the murderer was an individual with absolutely horrible, murderous desires
11:00
Speaker 1: against these women and perverted thoughts and anger toward women
11:05
Speaker 1: in general. They're known as incels. And again, I don't
11:08
Speaker 1: know if I buy the incel theory, right? I don't
11:11
Speaker 1: know enough about Brian Koberger yet to really jump into
11:14
Speaker 1: the pool with both feet on this incel theory. It's
11:17
Speaker 1: certainly something worth talking about, however, because he might fit
11:20
Speaker 1: into this category once we get all of his profile built,
11:25
Speaker 1: if you will. And that's going to take some more time. Remember,
11:27
Speaker 1: this gag order is really impeding any kind of real
11:31
Speaker 1: investigative work here. Down the incel rabbit hole. Since Koberger's arrest,
11:37
Speaker 1: there has been mounting speculation about whether he qualifies as
11:41
Speaker 1: an incel. Incel, short for involuntary celibates, are heterosexual men
11:47
Speaker 1: who blame women for their lack of romantic success. On
11:51
Speaker 1: hundreds of online forums, websites, and blogs, in the so-called manosphere,
11:56
Speaker 1: they promote women-hating and anti-feminism. They also tend to subscribe
12:01
Speaker 1: to white supremacy, and their rhetoric is often violent. Over
12:05
Speaker 1: the last decade, incels have been tied to dozens of
12:08
Speaker 1: assaults and murders, as well as a couple of mass murders.
12:11
Speaker 1: including the 2018 attack by Alec Manassian, then 25, who
12:17
Speaker 1: plowed a van into a group of pedestrians in Toronto,
12:20
Speaker 1: killing 11 people and injuring 15, predominantly women. The incel
12:26
Speaker 1: rebellion has already begun, Manassian wrote in a Facebook post
12:30
Speaker 1: prior to his attack. We will overthrow all the Chads
12:34
Speaker 1: and the Stacys. I guess that means if you have
12:37
Speaker 1: a boyfriend out there, you're a Stacy, and fellas... If
12:41
Speaker 1: you have a girlfriend, I guess you're a Chad. I mean,
12:44
Speaker 1: are these people for real?
12:45
Speaker 2: Like, get a hobby, bro.
12:47
Speaker 1: Go play Dungeons and Dragons with your friends. Go play
12:50
Speaker 1: Magic the Gathering and quit your bullshit. In the lexicon
12:54
Speaker 1: of incels, stacies are beautiful, typically blonde girls, who deny
12:58
Speaker 1: incels sex. Incels believe it is their right to have
13:01
Speaker 1: sex with stacies, forget about what stacies want, and hate
13:05
Speaker 1: them because they can't have them. They see stacies as
13:09
Speaker 1: stupid and shallow, because they prefer men who incels refer
13:13
Speaker 1: to as chads. Square-jawed jocks who enjoy great success with
13:17
Speaker 1: women do only, incels say, to their handsomeness. Imagine having
13:22
Speaker 1: that kind of worldview where you sit on the internet
13:25
Speaker 1: all day, complain you can't get laid, and then decide
13:28
Speaker 1: that it's everybody else's fault.
13:30
Speaker 2: Here's an idea.
13:31
Speaker 1: Take a shower, leave the house, and see how that
13:34
Speaker 1: works out for you. You can see how an incel
13:37
Speaker 1: might have regarded the house where the Idaho victims lived
13:40
Speaker 1: as a veritable nest of Stacy's. The surviving roommates were
13:44
Speaker 1: also pretty blondes. This was the house Koberger drove past
13:48
Speaker 1: at least 12 times, as if doing surveillance, which police
13:52
Speaker 1: say they know from his cell phone records. What was
13:55
Speaker 1: he looking for when he repeatedly rolled past? Was he
13:58
Speaker 1: already planning an attack, or was he looking for a
14:01
Speaker 1: glimpse into what he saw as a golden world full
14:05
Speaker 1: of beautiful blondes and their popular clique. I think that
14:10
Speaker 1: he was obsessed with Madison, and I think that's what
14:13
Speaker 1: caused him to surveil that place all of those times.
14:17
Speaker 1: And did he plan to kill them or her while
14:20
Speaker 1: he was going through all of these different trips out there?
14:23
Speaker 2: Who knows?
14:24
Speaker 1: But when he comes in front of that jury, the
14:26
Speaker 1: prosecution is certainly going to make it look like he
14:28
Speaker 1: was planning it. Kohlberger's apparent obsession with girls... deemed out
14:33
Speaker 1: of his league, goes back to an early rejection. In
14:37
Speaker 1: middle school in Broadheadsville, Pennsylvania, his heart was reportedly broken
14:41
Speaker 1: by Kim Kennelly, a future high school cheerleader. By all accounts,
14:46
Speaker 1: an overweight, awkward boy, Kohlberger would become relentless in his pursuit,
14:51
Speaker 1: repeatedly leaving love letters in Kennelly's locker and telling her
14:56
Speaker 1: he liked her. Reported the Daily Mail, she'd say, oh
14:59
Speaker 1: my God, leave me alone. Kennelly's mother, Sandra, told the paper,
15:04
Speaker 1: In interviews, former classmates say that Koberger was bullied by
15:07
Speaker 1: the popular girls in school. They literally tortured him, said
15:11
Speaker 1: an unnamed source. In his senior year of high school,
15:14
Speaker 1: he lost about 100 pounds, apparently in an attempt to
15:17
Speaker 1: fit in, turning himself into a frightening-looking version of Daniel
15:22
Speaker 1: Day-Lewis in the Age of Innocence. But this extreme physical
15:26
Speaker 1: transformation couldn't change Koberger's personality, which reportedly still felt off.
15:32
Speaker 1: and now was becoming aggressive and mean-spirited, according to former classmates.
15:39
Speaker 1: In high school, Kohlberger reportedly started taking heroin to dull
15:42
Speaker 1: the pain of his existence.
15:44
Speaker 2: He later went to rehab and got sober.
15:47
Speaker 1: I feel like an organic sack of meat with no self-worth,
15:50
Speaker 1: he wrote on an online forum when he was 16
15:52
Speaker 1: in 2011. He developed a rare condition, visual snow, spots
15:57
Speaker 1: before your eyes, which he said coincided with an increasing
16:01
Speaker 1: absence of emotion. I'm sure there's a lot of people
16:04
Speaker 1: with the same exact thing who don't go out and
16:06
Speaker 1: murder people. And yet, through his trials and tribulations, Koberger
16:13
Speaker 1: was apparently still harassing his female classmates. If he liked
16:17
Speaker 1: or was interested in a girl, and she wasn't, he
16:20
Speaker 1: didn't understand why or just didn't accept her saying no
16:23
Speaker 1: and move on. Dominique Clarke, who attended elementary and high
16:27
Speaker 1: school with Kohlberger, told the New York Post. Later, Kohlberger's
16:31
Speaker 1: reported misogyny extended to locker room talk. There was a
16:35
Speaker 1: comment he made, and it was kind of a flippant
16:37
Speaker 1: guy talk thing, Benjamin Roberts, a fellow grad student at
16:41
Speaker 1: Washington State University, told CBS News. At one point, he
16:45
Speaker 1: just idly mentioned, you know, I can go down to
16:48
Speaker 1: a bar or a club and pretty much have any
16:51
Speaker 1: lady I want. Oh, big pimpin', huh? Big baller over here.
16:55
Speaker 1: Tom Brady in the house. Just gonna walk into whatever
16:58
Speaker 1: bar or club he wants and leave with whatever lady
17:01
Speaker 1: he wants.
17:02
Speaker 2: Okay, sure.
17:04
Speaker 1: From everything we know about Kohlberger, this sounds doubtful. The
17:07
Speaker 1: bravado of a man who would like to be a
17:09
Speaker 1: player but drives a white Hyundai Elantra. At Washington State,
17:13
Speaker 1: where he was pursuing a PhD in criminology, Kohlberger reportedly
17:17
Speaker 1: turned off his female classmates by mansplaining to them. His
17:22
Speaker 1: peers said he rankled some people with a habit of
17:25
Speaker 1: over-explaining and sounded particularly condescending when he spoke to his
17:30
Speaker 1: female classmates. The New York Times reported, In the manosphere,
17:35
Speaker 1: incels like to talk about how they suffer from women's disregard,
17:39
Speaker 1: never taking responsibility for how their own misogynistic attitudes and
17:43
Speaker 1: behavior might be what's pushing women away. Yeah, you know,
17:47
Speaker 1: a little self-evaluation is always a good idea, right? Before
17:51
Speaker 1: you start worrying about what everybody else is doing wrong,
17:53
Speaker 1: you should probably take a look in the mirror and
17:55
Speaker 1: ask yourself, what am I doing wrong? Another window into
18:00
Speaker 1: Koberger's apparent failure to connect with women is in the
18:04
Speaker 1: story of Haley Ouellette, 26, who in January posted a
18:08
Speaker 1: TikTok about how her Tinder date with Koberger seven years
18:11
Speaker 1: ago when she was an undergrad at Penn State Hazleton
18:15
Speaker 1: and he was probably living with his parents in nearby Albrightville.
18:20
Speaker 1: Ouellette said Koberger kept trying to touch her, making her uncomfortable,
18:24
Speaker 1: until she finally got him to leave. After which, he
18:27
Speaker 1: messaged her, saying that she had good birthing hips, a
18:31
Speaker 1: small detail which suggests that Koberger may have spent time
18:35
Speaker 1: in the manosphere. Incels believe that women exist purely for
18:39
Speaker 1: their reproductive and sexual capabilities, according to the Southern Poverty
18:44
Speaker 1: Law Center. That whole entire world is so foreign to
18:47
Speaker 1: me and so weird, I just don't understand people that
18:51
Speaker 1: are going to sit on the computer and complain about
18:53
Speaker 1: not getting laid. It's not that difficult, man. Go out
18:56
Speaker 1: and find yourself a girl. You're going to sit there
18:59
Speaker 1: and cry and bitch and moan, not take showers, live
19:02
Speaker 1: with mommy and daddy forever, blame the whole world. Nobody
19:06
Speaker 1: wants to hear it. We all have problems. And if
19:08
Speaker 1: your biggest problem is you can't get laid, well, learn
19:12
Speaker 1: how to code. Look what it did for guys like
19:14
Speaker 1: Bill Gates.
19:14
Speaker 2: And Elon Musk.
19:15
Speaker 1: 11 days before the Idaho murders, according to the New
19:19
Speaker 1: York Times, Kohlberger had a meeting with faculty members at
19:23
Speaker 1: Washington State University, which had been investigating his professionalism and
19:28
Speaker 1: his conduct around women in his role as a teaching assistant.
19:32
Speaker 1: Some female students reported that Mr. Kohlberger had made them
19:36
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable, including by allegedly following a female student to
19:40
Speaker 1: her car. He was fired in December. Incels like to
19:44
Speaker 1: be known for when they kill people or when they
19:47
Speaker 1: have a conquest like this.
19:49
Speaker 2: Dr.
19:49
Speaker 1: Carol Lieber a forensic psychiatrist, said on Court TV. On
19:53
Speaker 1: the night of the murders, the killer left his knife
19:56
Speaker 1: sheath on the bed where Mogan and Gonsalves had been sleeping.
20:00
Speaker 1: That knife sheath bears Koberger's DNA, according to the police.
20:04
Speaker 1: But if Koberger was indeed the killer, you wonder how
20:08
Speaker 1: a grad student in criminology managed to forget this vital
20:11
Speaker 1: piece of evidence? Did he leave it there accidentally? Or
20:15
Speaker 1: was it his way of marking his kill? And that's
20:19
Speaker 1: certainly a discussion that we've had several times here on
20:21
Speaker 1: this podcast. And again, that's unfortunately something that we're not
20:25
Speaker 1: going to know until trial or maybe ever, depending on
20:29
Speaker 1: what Brian Kohlberger has to say. If the killings were
20:33
Speaker 1: sexually motivated, then the sheath was akin to a discarded condom.
20:38
Speaker 1: proof that its owner was the one who had been there,
20:40
Speaker 1: violating those popular, good-looking young people. Before Koberger was arrested,
20:46
Speaker 1: a Facebook group devoted to discussing the murders was visited
20:49
Speaker 1: by a user who called himself Papa Roger. Some group
20:53
Speaker 1: members later noticed that the person with the username had
20:56
Speaker 1: guessed rather too accurately about the knife sheath being left
21:00
Speaker 1: at the scene. Of the evidence released, Papa Roger commented,
21:04
Speaker 1: Weeks before police released this detail, the murder weapon has
21:08
Speaker 1: been consistent as a large fixed blade knife. This leads
21:11
Speaker 1: me to believe that they found the sheath. So, like
21:15
Speaker 1: I said in the beginning, I don't really know if
21:17
Speaker 1: this guy Papa Roger was Brian Koberger, but I have
21:20
Speaker 1: my doubts. There's a lot of people that get on
21:23
Speaker 1: the internet and act the fool. Some believe Papa Roger
21:27
Speaker 1: was Koberger himself, which would make his username a nod
21:31
Speaker 1: to his identification with incels, as well as kind of
21:34
Speaker 1: a brag. Elliot Roger is was the name of the
21:37
Speaker 1: misogynistic terrorist who killed six people and injured 14 others
21:41
Speaker 1: in Isle Vista, California, in 2014, when he was 22,
21:46
Speaker 1: before turning the gun on himself. Roger is a hero
21:50
Speaker 1: to the incel movement, which the U.S. Secret Service National
21:53
Speaker 1: Threat Assessment Center has identified as a growing domestic terror threat.
21:59
Speaker 1: Through his murder spree and his online manifesto, in which
22:02
Speaker 1: he blames his loneliness and isolation on women, For refusing
22:05
Speaker 1: to have sex with him, Roger became the incel king.
22:09
Speaker 1: All hail the supreme gentleman, Elliot Roger. Alec Manassian wrote
22:14
Speaker 1: on Facebook before his 2018 Toronto attack, incels cheered. It's
22:19
Speaker 1: so weird to me to think that there's a whole
22:21
Speaker 1: group of people that base their whole entire existence on
22:24
Speaker 1: the fact that they can't get laid. We are haunted
22:29
Speaker 1: by the last photo Gonsalves posted on Instagram just hours
22:32
Speaker 1: before she and her roommates died. There is Mogan smiling,
22:36
Speaker 1: sitting on the shoulders of Gonsalves. They were like sisters,
22:40
Speaker 1: inseparable since sixth grade. There are Kernodle and Chapin embracing.
22:45
Speaker 1: Whoever killed them, four people with loving connections, the type
22:49
Speaker 1: of connections Kohlberger never found in life and coveted in others.
22:54
Speaker 1: The senselessness of it is infuriating. Is that why we've
22:57
Speaker 1: become so obsessed with this story? And yet many other
23:01
Speaker 1: murders occur that are as shocking and deserving of our attention.
23:06
Speaker 1: So why the Idaho victims? Could it be we're as
23:09
Speaker 1: obsessed with Stacey's as incels are? Dead white girl holy
23:13
Speaker 1: grail of podcast remarks BJ Novak as the cynical podcaster.
23:17
Speaker 2: In the movie Vengeance. Alright folks, well there it is.
23:21
Speaker 1: Another entry into the catalog. This one talking about Brian
23:25
Speaker 1: Koberger and him possibly being an incel. So what do
23:29
Speaker 1: you folks think? Do you think he fits into this category?
23:32
Speaker 1: Or do you think he fits somewhere else? Shoot me
23:35
Speaker 1: some emails and let me know. Alright folks, that's going
23:39
Speaker 1: to do it for this one. All of the information
23:41
Speaker 1: that goes with the episode can be found in the
23:44
Speaker 1: description box. What's up everyone and welcome back.
23:47
Speaker 2: To the program.
23:50
Speaker 1: Like most of you out there, I've wondered over and
23:53
Speaker 1: over and over again what the motive could have been
23:57
Speaker 1: for Brian Koberger to allegedly kill four college students while
24:02
Speaker 1: they were home in their beds. And to tell you
24:06
Speaker 1: the truth, there aren't any good reasons that I can
24:10
Speaker 1: come up with. But the best reason that I've heard
24:13
Speaker 1: so far is simply because Brian Kohlberger was an incel.
24:18
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds simple, but when you start
24:21
Speaker 1: looking at everything that we're finding out about him in context,
24:25
Speaker 1: about how.
24:25
Speaker 2: He was bullied.
24:26
Speaker 1: how he was a general outcast, you know, not welcomed
24:30
Speaker 1: among the popular groups, and how that can lead to
24:33
Speaker 1: him having animosity for people like this later on in
24:37
Speaker 1: the future.
24:38
Speaker 2: Thus, the incel theory.
24:40
Speaker 1: So let's get into this article from the New York Post,
24:44
Speaker 1: and let's see what Olivia Land has for us. Headline,
24:50
Speaker 1: Idaho murder suspect Brian Kohlberger had an incel complex that
24:55
Speaker 1: drove him to kill. University of Idaho murder suspect Brian
24:59
Speaker 1: Koberger may have been driven to kill by his history
25:03
Speaker 1: of social issues and a possible incel complex, a former
25:07
Speaker 1: FBI investigator told the Post. And I knew once we
25:11
Speaker 1: started hearing from people that were in his life, ex-friends,
25:15
Speaker 1: people that were around him, people who knew him, that
25:17
Speaker 1: we'd start to get more of a profile from some
25:20
Speaker 1: of these experts that are following along with the case.
25:23
Speaker 1: Like I've said to you a bunch of times, I'm
25:26
Speaker 1: not you know, equipped to build a proper profile and
25:30
Speaker 1: come out here and tell you, oh yeah, this, this, this,
25:32
Speaker 1: and this. I'm certainly not a forensic expert. I'm certainly
25:36
Speaker 1: not a clinical psychologist. But when you look at what
25:40
Speaker 1: we have learned about Brian Koberger, it certainly seems to
25:44
Speaker 1: me that this whole entire incel theory certainly has some traction.
25:50
Speaker 1: The murders may have been an effort to assert some
25:53
Speaker 1: type of dominance. Former FBI agent And security expert Pete
25:58
Speaker 1: Yachmitz explained to the Post this week. And people like this,
26:02
Speaker 1: people that commit these kinds of crimes, we know a
26:05
Speaker 1: lot of it's about control. And for some of these
26:08
Speaker 1: people who commit these crimes, the control is actually what
26:12
Speaker 1: gets them off. Not the murder, not the sexual assault,
26:16
Speaker 1: if there is sexual assault, but the actual control part
26:20
Speaker 1: is what they're looking for, to have that feeling of
26:23
Speaker 1: being in complete control of the situation. having control over
26:27
Speaker 1: everything about you, even your life and death. Koberger, 28,
26:34
Speaker 1: was arrested late last month for the November 13th stabbing
26:37
Speaker 1: deaths of Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan
26:42
Speaker 1: Chapin at an off-campus residence in Moscow, Idaho. Yachmetz believes
26:48
Speaker 1: the brutality of the crime and Koberger's history of social
26:51
Speaker 1: challenges may offer some hints to his possible motive. And
26:56
Speaker 1: I think that's definitely on the right track, whether that
26:59
Speaker 1: it's him being an incel completely and his hatred of
27:04
Speaker 1: women or whatever led him directly to doing this. Or
27:08
Speaker 1: we come to find out that it's something else like
27:11
Speaker 1: a perceived slight by one of these girls. You know,
27:14
Speaker 1: they ran into him at like a bar or something
27:17
Speaker 1: or a coffee shop or at work. He hit on
27:19
Speaker 1: him or something like that. And. They weren't receptive to it,
27:23
Speaker 1: so he took it personal. And if you have this
27:25
Speaker 1: kind of personality, an incels type of personality, and you're,
27:30
Speaker 1: you know, willing to go to the next step like
27:33
Speaker 1: Kohlberger allegedly was willing to do, then it becomes a
27:37
Speaker 1: very dangerous situation for the person who was perceived to
27:42
Speaker 1: slight you. I believe a continued stabbing of a victim
27:47
Speaker 1: indicates an uncontrollable rage and extreme anger. Yachmit said, noting
27:53
Speaker 1: that Kohlberger has been described as socially awkward with a
27:56
Speaker 1: long history of interpersonal problems. I think he may have
28:01
Speaker 1: developed a sort of incel complex, he surmised. And when
28:05
Speaker 1: you're talking about I hear demons and all the rest
28:08
Speaker 1: of the nonsense that Kohlberger was allegedly talking about online.
28:13
Speaker 1: and then you're accused of crimes like this, people are
28:16
Speaker 1: going to start to put all of that together and
28:19
Speaker 1: build a profile on you.
28:20
Speaker 2: And when I say people, I don't mean the tarot
28:23
Speaker 2: card reader.
28:24
Speaker 1: I'm talking about professionals, criminologists, ex-FBI agents, and people that
28:30
Speaker 1: are well-trained in the field and know the craft. And
28:33
Speaker 1: these people are coming out and the profile that they're
28:36
Speaker 1: building on Brian Koberger certainly leads to him being enraged
28:41
Speaker 1: and him being angry. But the real question is who,
28:45
Speaker 1: if anyone, that anger was directed at specifically. And as
28:50
Speaker 1: of now, at least us in the public here, we
28:52
Speaker 1: just don't know that. We don't know who the target was,
28:55
Speaker 1: if there was a specific target or if it was
28:58
Speaker 1: something else. But when you look at everything that we
29:02
Speaker 1: have been privy to, it certainly looks like one of
29:05
Speaker 1: the girls was targeted.
29:07
Speaker 2: And I've said it once and I'll say it again.
29:10
Speaker 1: It has to be Madison or Kaylee, right? At this point,
29:13
Speaker 1: with everything we know now, I guess there's some room
29:16
Speaker 1: for discussion about which one of them it was.
29:19
Speaker 2: But for my money.
29:21
Speaker 1: I would have to say that either one of them
29:24
Speaker 1: was the original initial target by the killer who the
29:27
Speaker 1: government says is Brian Koberger. So I think that's going
29:33
Speaker 1: to be a very important part of this to figure
29:35
Speaker 1: out if we're going to get to the bottom of
29:37
Speaker 1: it and we're going to get some answers, then they're
29:40
Speaker 1: going to have to figure that all out and figure
29:42
Speaker 1: out where the paths crossed, how, you know, they came
29:45
Speaker 1: onto his radar and all of that jazz.
29:48
Speaker 2: And it's a daunting task, right?
29:50
Speaker 1: They have to go through everything with a fine tooth
29:52
Speaker 1: comb because, you know, Koberger is not going to be
29:55
Speaker 1: any help. Not like he's going to get out there
29:58
Speaker 1: and start singing a song for the government.
30:01
Speaker 2: Dude should know better.
30:02
Speaker 1: But then again, you take a look at this crime
30:04
Speaker 1: scene and you say to yourself, maybe he's stupid.
30:07
Speaker 2: Enough to talk.
30:08
Speaker 1: That would certainly be beneficial from a prosecution standpoint. Get
30:13
Speaker 1: this guy to talk to some kind of jailhouse snitch
30:15
Speaker 1: or something like that. And who knows what kind of
30:18
Speaker 1: secrets he'd start to spill. The term incel, an abbreviation
30:24
Speaker 1: for involuntarily celibate, is generally used to refer to men
30:28
Speaker 1: who struggle to establish romantic or sexual relationships. The identity
30:34
Speaker 1: is occasionally linked to misogynistic online forums and, in extreme cases, crime.
30:40
Speaker 1: In 2021, self-professed incel Tress Jenko was busted for planning
30:46
Speaker 1: a mass shooting of 3,000 sorority sisters at an unnamed
30:50
Speaker 1: Ohio university. Jenko, 22, pled guilty to the sick plot
30:56
Speaker 1: And is facing life in prison. Sounds like a hell
30:59
Speaker 1: of a guy, huh? Let me go out here and
31:01
Speaker 1: plot to kill a bunch of sorority girls. Because none
31:04
Speaker 1: of them would ever want to hang out with me.
31:06
Speaker 1: Here's an idea, buddy. Take a shower. Brush your teeth.
31:10
Speaker 1: Comb your hair. Hell, maybe get a haircut. Hit the gym.
31:14
Speaker 1: And maybe, just maybe, you might be able to find
31:17
Speaker 1: a date. But if you let all that butter grow
31:20
Speaker 1: on your teeth. You don't take a shower. You smell funky.
31:24
Speaker 1: You look like a goofball. Well, what do you expect, bro?
31:28
Speaker 1: All these incels are like, oh, it's women, it's this one,
31:31
Speaker 1: it's that one. Meanwhile, they're sitting around smelling like shit,
31:35
Speaker 1: looking like shit, and certainly acting like shit. Though it
31:40
Speaker 1: is not a proper psychological definition, Psychology Today noted last
31:44
Speaker 1: year that men who identify as incels often have poor
31:48
Speaker 1: mental health and experience feelings of victimhood, inferiority, and loneliness.
31:54
Speaker 1: And a lot of that is stoked by all of
31:58
Speaker 1: these grifters out there. People like Andrew Tate and others
32:01
Speaker 1: like him who prey on people.
32:04
Speaker 2: These weak ass dudes.
32:05
Speaker 1: Mr. I got picked in volleyball last my whole entire life.
32:09
Speaker 1: I've never had a girlfriend. So, of course, these dudes
32:12
Speaker 1: are going to be vulnerable to some knucklehead out here
32:15
Speaker 1: pitching all kinds of nonsense. That's how it works with
32:18
Speaker 1: grifters and with snake oil salesmen. They look for vulnerable
32:22
Speaker 1: people who are easy to sink their hooks in. And
32:25
Speaker 1: when you're talking about an incel community like this, forget it.
32:31
Speaker 1: Yachmit's personal analysis of Koberger echoed that of Dr. Carol Lieberman,
32:37
Speaker 1: a forensic psychiatrist who told Court TV last week that
32:41
Speaker 1: she believed the suspect fit the incel profile. And he
32:45
Speaker 1: most certainly does with what we know. Now, look, we
32:48
Speaker 1: don't know the guy's whole entire life story yet, right?
32:51
Speaker 1: We only know what we've been told by people that
32:53
Speaker 1: were around him in his previous life. And everything that
32:58
Speaker 1: we have heard has been pretty creepy, right? We haven't
33:00
Speaker 1: heard somebody come forward and say, oh yeah, Brian, average dude,
33:04
Speaker 1: great guy, one of my favorite boyfriends ever. We broke
33:07
Speaker 1: up because we grew apart. Where are all the people
33:11
Speaker 1: coming out and saying stuff like that? You really haven't
33:16
Speaker 1: heard anything like that. So it would lead me to
33:18
Speaker 1: believe that there aren't many people out there that have
33:21
Speaker 1: anything really great to say about old boy. And once again,
33:25
Speaker 1: that means nothing in a court of law. But when
33:28
Speaker 1: you're looking at it in the totality of circumstantial evidence,
33:33
Speaker 1: it's not good for Brian Koberger. And it makes them
33:35
Speaker 1: look guilty as hell. I've been saying this from the beginning,
33:39
Speaker 1: that he's an incel, Lieberman said, explaining that she was
33:43
Speaker 1: largely convinced due to Koberger's alleged choice of victims or
33:47
Speaker 1: decision to target mostly female college students. So if he
33:51
Speaker 1: is an incel, I wonder if he was active on 4chan.
33:55
Speaker 1: You know that's where all these clowns go and hang out.
33:58
Speaker 1: And if he was active there, I wonder if they
34:01
Speaker 1: can trace his account and his posts and see what
34:04
Speaker 1: he was up to. Because again, that helps build a
34:07
Speaker 1: profile of who the guy was. If he's sitting there
34:10
Speaker 1: talking about stuff like that in forums, well, chances are
34:15
Speaker 1: that's how he really feels, right? Whenever you have the
34:19
Speaker 1: air of anonymity, more than likely you're going to be
34:24
Speaker 1: more willing to say things that you wouldn't say if
34:27
Speaker 1: you had to put your name behind it. So if
34:29
Speaker 1: they can find, you know, a burner account that Koberger
34:33
Speaker 1: was using, that he was using on a place like
34:36
Speaker 1: 4chan especially, then they can really put something together, perhaps,
34:40
Speaker 1: about this whole entire incel theory. Lieberman was also intrigued
34:46
Speaker 1: by evidence which suggested Koberger returned to the crime scene
34:51
Speaker 1: in the hours after the murders. Incels like to be
34:54
Speaker 1: known for when they kill people or when they have
34:57
Speaker 1: a conquest like this, she said. On the one hand,
35:01
Speaker 1: he wanted to commit the perfect crime and not be caught.
35:04
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, he did want to be
35:06
Speaker 1: caught and be proud in a sense of what he did.
35:09
Speaker 1: And again, that fits with what I think as well.
35:11
Speaker 1: How many times have I said it's almost like this
35:14
Speaker 1: dude wanted to get caught with how sloppy he was
35:17
Speaker 1: at that crime scene with the sheath and all of
35:19
Speaker 1: the other stuff. So could it be he's looking for
35:23
Speaker 1: that sort of notoriety and wants to take this and
35:26
Speaker 1: the whole entire country basically on a ride with him
35:29
Speaker 1: throughout this trial? Now, look, I don't know if that's
35:32
Speaker 1: his motivation. I have no idea. But it's certainly possible.
35:36
Speaker 1: And like everything else, I'm not going to discount it
35:39
Speaker 1: until we have official word one way or the other.
35:43
Speaker 1: Because there are way too many unknowns in this case.
35:46
Speaker 1: And we just don't know enough about Brian Koberger or, hell,
35:50
Speaker 1: the case overall to really have that kind of opinion yet.
35:54
Speaker 1: At the time of the murders, Koberger was a doctoral
35:57
Speaker 1: student in criminology at Washington State University, just 15 minutes
36:02
Speaker 1: from Moscow. While WSU classmates described him as gregarious, peers
36:07
Speaker 1: from his Pennsylvania hometown remembered him as a loner who
36:11
Speaker 1: was bullied for his weight before spiraling into drug addiction.
36:15
Speaker 1: And that also could play into the whole incel thing.
36:19
Speaker 1: He could have turned into an incel after all of
36:21
Speaker 1: the abuse, felt like he was getting picked on too
36:24
Speaker 1: much by the quote-unquote cool kids, and he's going to
36:27
Speaker 1: get his revenge. Sounds crazy to me and you, but
36:31
Speaker 1: to some people out there, this is like a legit
36:35
Speaker 1: scenario that they play out in their brain. One alleged
36:40
Speaker 1: middle school crush of Kohlberger's, Kim Kenley, reportedly even contacted
36:44
Speaker 1: the FBI about her experience with him. He would always say, OK, oh, Kim,
36:50
Speaker 1: I think you're very pretty. Just like weird comments. And
36:53
Speaker 1: she'd say, oh, my God, leave me alone. Kenley's mother, Sandra,
36:57
Speaker 1: told the Daily Mail. And I don't know how much
36:59
Speaker 1: stock we can put into all of that. Right. We
37:02
Speaker 1: always have to be cautious of people who are trying
37:04
Speaker 1: to insert themselves into stories. But when you hear it
37:07
Speaker 1: from multiple people, you start to say to yourself, well, hey, look,
37:11
Speaker 1: maybe this all tracks. If all of these people are
37:14
Speaker 1: coming out and saying, oh, boy, it was weird as shit. Well,
37:17
Speaker 1: he was probably a pretty weird dude. And don't get
37:22
Speaker 1: me wrong, just being weird doesn't make you guilty. But again,
37:26
Speaker 1: you have to look at the totality of everything we know.
37:32
Speaker 1: She did not give him the time of day. When
37:34
Speaker 1: kids are little, they're mean. They don't say, oh my God,
37:37
Speaker 1: thank you, but no. Another middle school classmate who asked
37:40
Speaker 1: to remain anonymous told the outlet that the popular cheerleaders
37:44
Speaker 1: tortured Koberger. And it looks like another situation where you
37:48
Speaker 1: can say, so what?
37:49
Speaker 2: Big deal. That happened so long ago. What does it matter?
37:52
Speaker 2: He moved on. Look at him.
37:53
Speaker 1: Has his criminology degree. He's a relatively successful guy. Has
37:57
Speaker 1: a TA job over at Washington State.
38:00
Speaker 2: So what does it matter?
38:00
Speaker 1: He got picked on. Well, obviously it matters, huh? When
38:05
Speaker 1: you go back and you look at all of it
38:06
Speaker 1: now and you look at what he's being accused of,
38:10
Speaker 1: it obviously matters. The whole clique of popular girls made
38:15
Speaker 1: fun of him in school. They were the cheerleaders and
38:18
Speaker 1: the ones that every kid had crushes on, they said.
38:22
Speaker 1: And look, kids are nasty, right? I remember when I
38:25
Speaker 1: was a kid, I wasn't the nicest person in the world.
38:28
Speaker 1: Could say some mean things. You don't really know any
38:30
Speaker 1: better when you're a kid. But When you're somebody who's
38:33
Speaker 1: an incel or somebody with these kinds of thoughts, you
38:37
Speaker 1: take that shit personally and it stays with you forever.
38:41
Speaker 1: And in some cases, it turns into violence. Kohlberger's adolescent
38:47
Speaker 1: social isolation was also reflected in posts he reportedly made
38:51
Speaker 1: to online forums, writing in one 2011 entry that he
38:56
Speaker 1: felt like an organic sack of meat with no self-worth.
39:00
Speaker 1: Hypothesis about the possible motive for Koberger's alleged crime come
39:05
Speaker 1: as investigators scramble to establish a link between him and
39:09
Speaker 1: the four victims. After a brief hearing on Thursday, the
39:12
Speaker 1: suspect remains in custody in Latah County, where he's being
39:16
Speaker 1: held without bail. Koberger, who has not entered a plea
39:20
Speaker 1: despite facing four counts of murder and one of felony burglary,
39:24
Speaker 1: is expected back in court on June 26th. All right, folks,
39:29
Speaker 1: so what do you think? Do you think that Brian
39:32
Speaker 1: Koberger is an incel? Do you think that that could
39:35
Speaker 1: have driven him to commit these crimes if you think
39:38
Speaker 1: he committed these crimes? So shoot me some email and
39:42
Speaker 1: let me know what all of you think. All right, folks,
39:45
Speaker 1: that's going to do it for this one. If you'd
39:48
Speaker 1: like to contact me, you can do that at BobbyCapucci
39:51
Speaker 1: at ProtonMail.com. That's B-O-B-B-Y-C-A-P-U-C-C-I at ProtonMail.com. You can also find
40:00
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at B-O-B-B-Y underscore C-A-P-U-C-C-I. The link that
40:07
Speaker 1: I discuss can be found in the description box. Welcome
40:13
Speaker 1: back to the program. One of the main questions I have,
40:18
Speaker 1: and I'm sure most people have, is what motivated Brian
40:22
Speaker 1: Koberger to allegedly commit these crimes? And at this point,
40:27
Speaker 1: we don't have any solid answers. All we have is
40:30
Speaker 1: a lot of speculation and a lot of opinions from
40:34
Speaker 1: experts in the various fields that deal with these sorts
40:38
Speaker 1: of crimes. And on today's episode, we're hearing from another
40:43
Speaker 1: one of these experts, This time, a forensic psychiatrist named
40:48
Speaker 1: Ian Lamoureux. So let's get into this article from Newsweek
40:53
Speaker 1: and let's see what Mr. Lamoureux has for us. Headline,
40:58
Speaker 1: Idaho murder was chasing a thrill kill, says forensic expert.
41:03
Speaker 1: This article was authored by James Bickerton. The murder of
41:08
Speaker 1: four University of Idaho students in the early hours of
41:11
Speaker 1: November 13th, 2022, was likely a thrill kill, according to
41:16
Speaker 1: a leading forensic psychiatrist. And for those of you wondering
41:21
Speaker 1: what a thrill kill might be, here is what it
41:24
Speaker 1: says in Wikipedia. A thrill kill is a premeditated or
41:29
Speaker 1: random murder that is motivated by the sheer excitement of
41:32
Speaker 1: the act. While there have been attempts to categorize multiple murders,
41:36
Speaker 1: such as identifying thrill killing as a type of hedonistic
41:40
Speaker 1: mass slaying, actual details of events frequently overlap category definitions,
41:45
Speaker 1: making attempts at such distinctions problematic. Those identified as thrill
41:51
Speaker 1: killers are typically young males, but other profile characteristics may vary.
41:57
Speaker 1: According to Jack Levin, director of the Brudnick Center on
42:01
Speaker 1: Conflict and Violence at Northeastern University. The major common denominator
42:07
Speaker 1: among those who commit thrill killings is that they usually
42:10
Speaker 1: feel inadequate and are driven by a need to feel powerful.
42:14
Speaker 1: To a certain extent, they, thrill killers, may make their
42:18
Speaker 1: victims suffer so that they can feel good, said Levin.
42:21
Speaker 1: Sadism is fairly common in thrill killings. The killer might torture, degrade,
42:26
Speaker 1: or rape his victims before he or she takes his
42:29
Speaker 1: or her life. They frequently have an ideal victim type
42:33
Speaker 1: who has certain physical characteristics. Thrill killers have been frequently
42:38
Speaker 1: romanticized in films. So just using that basic description of
42:44
Speaker 1: what a thrill killer is certainly could see Brian Koberger
42:47
Speaker 1: being categorized as that if he is the person responsible
42:51
Speaker 1: for these murders. Certainly could be a situation where you
42:55
Speaker 1: have a thrill killer who decided that now is the
42:58
Speaker 1: time that I'm going to go and live out my fantasies.
43:01
Speaker 1: And to normal thinking folks, that sounds just completely batshit insane.
43:06
Speaker 1: But these people aren't wired the same way that most
43:09
Speaker 1: of us are. And when the facade of normalcy snaps
43:13
Speaker 1: for these people, forget it.
43:15
Speaker 2: It snaps.
43:17
Speaker 1: Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin were
43:22
Speaker 1: all stabbed to death when an intruder broke into a
43:25
Speaker 1: shared student house in the town of Moscow, Idaho. Brian Koberger,
43:29
Speaker 1: a 28-year-old criminology Ph.D. student, was arrested on December 30th
43:34
Speaker 1: and has been charged with four counts of first-degree murder
43:38
Speaker 1: along with burglary. Koberger's legal team have indicated he will
43:42
Speaker 1: plead not guilty and he will seek to clear his name.
43:45
Speaker 1: Good luck with that. There is a ton of evidence
43:48
Speaker 1: against this dude, and it's going to be a challenge
43:51
Speaker 1: for him to clear his name. And then you add
43:54
Speaker 1: in the situation with Ann Taylor and the possible conflict
43:59
Speaker 1: of interest, and Brian Koberger might even be looking at
44:02
Speaker 1: having new legal counsel at some point. Speaking to Newsweek,
44:08
Speaker 1: Ian Lamoureux, a forensic psychiatrist, and clinical assistant professor of
44:13
Speaker 1: psychiatry at the university of arizona said initial evidence suggests
44:17
Speaker 1: the murders could have been a thrill kill and look
44:21
Speaker 1: we just don't know right if we're being honest all
44:24
Speaker 1: of these experts all of these legal scholars they're just
44:27
Speaker 1: given their opinions as well now their opinions are grounded
44:32
Speaker 1: in more education than most of us as far as
44:35
Speaker 1: the topic at hand but remember These experts don't have
44:39
Speaker 1: access to all of the case files. They don't have
44:42
Speaker 1: access to all of the evidence. All they're doing is
44:45
Speaker 1: looking at the circumstantial evidence that's been provided and giving
44:48
Speaker 1: an assessment based on that. What I will say, though,
44:52
Speaker 1: is a lot of these experts end up being spot on.
44:55
Speaker 1: When you hear what they say, the way they break
44:58
Speaker 1: down the profile, what the person was motivated by, a
45:02
Speaker 1: lot of these experts, as far as these clinical psychologists,
45:06
Speaker 1: criminal profilers, They know what they're talking about and they
45:09
Speaker 1: know their business. So for me, I like to consume
45:12
Speaker 1: as much information as possible and get as much context
45:15
Speaker 1: as possible from as many people as possible. That way
45:19
Speaker 1: we're well armed and we're equipped to deal with this
45:22
Speaker 1: story as it evolves. He said, I have not seen
45:26
Speaker 1: sufficient information to establish a motive at this stage.
45:30
Speaker 2: Currently, this appears to be a thrill kill.
45:33
Speaker 1: The thrill could be emotional excitement or sexual. It could
45:37
Speaker 1: also be the thrill of executing the perfect murder. And
45:41
Speaker 1: that's certainly something we have to keep on the table,
45:45
Speaker 1: in my opinion, considering we don't know what the motivations were.
45:48
Speaker 1: I think that we can't discount anything that sounds logical. Obviously,
45:55
Speaker 1: anything that's out of there in fantasy land, that's something
45:58
Speaker 1: that I just discount right away.
46:00
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear about.
46:01
Speaker 1: Psychics or aliens or spirit boxes, any of that bullshit.
46:05
Speaker 1: But when we get the opinions of these experts, clinical
46:08
Speaker 1: psychologists and stuff like that, I think that that's worthwhile
46:11
Speaker 1: and certainly something that needs to be explored. And when
46:14
Speaker 1: all is said and done, it's going to be something
46:17
Speaker 1: like this. A thrill kill or he had some kind
46:20
Speaker 1: of obsession, something like that will end up being the motivation. Lamoureux,
46:26
Speaker 1: who emphasized that Kohlberger has yet to be convicted of
46:29
Speaker 1: any crime, continued, it seems as though there is some speculation,
46:33
Speaker 1: given his background in criminal studies, that this could be
46:36
Speaker 1: the motive, the thrill of outsmarting the authorities. I've always
46:41
Speaker 1: thought that that was a plausible scenario, that this guy
46:44
Speaker 1: thinks he's smarter than everybody else, thinks that he's going
46:47
Speaker 1: to get away with it, planned it for all of
46:50
Speaker 1: these months, stalked these girls allegedly. cased the house, knew
46:54
Speaker 1: where they worked, developed patterns, and he really thought he
46:57
Speaker 1: was going to get away with it. Well, breaking news,
47:00
Speaker 1: you're not as smart as you think, my friend. The
47:03
Speaker 1: adrenaline rush and excitement of the killings is the end goal.
47:07
Speaker 1: His online encounters with the victims, if guilty and accurate,
47:11
Speaker 1: could represent stalking hunting behavior that killers of this category
47:15
Speaker 1: exhibit as a way of stoking excitement, in anticipation of
47:20
Speaker 1: the murders, the thrill of the hunt.
47:22
Speaker 2: And it lines up.
47:24
Speaker 1: If you look at what happened here, according to what
47:27
Speaker 1: the probable cause affidavit tells us, then it lines up
47:31
Speaker 1: with this possibly, possibly being a thrill kill. Certainly not
47:35
Speaker 1: something that can be discarded or discounted as a theory
47:38
Speaker 1: right now. And in my opinion, a top contender for
47:41
Speaker 1: what the motivation is going to be.
47:43
Speaker 2: When all is said and done. Now you'll see how.
47:47
Speaker 1: According to the psychiatrist, the murderer likely took sadistic pleasure
47:52
Speaker 1: in the suffering inflicted on their victims. He explained creating fear, terror,
47:57
Speaker 1: and or pain in their victims will increase the intensity
48:00
Speaker 1: of the pleasure derived from their acts. The intensely personal
48:04
Speaker 1: and unusually violent nature of the murders, a large fixed
48:07
Speaker 1: blade such as a K-bar military knife, supports this. This
48:11
Speaker 1: process of hunting, stalking their victims, culminating in violent homicides
48:16
Speaker 1: is intensely pleasurable to these individuals, similar to the rush
48:21
Speaker 1: of narcotic drugs. The actual act sometimes is the aphrodisiac
48:27
Speaker 1: for these people. And usually you'll hear about a killer
48:31
Speaker 1: like this engaging in sexual assault or sexual abuse, something
48:34
Speaker 1: like that. But some of them, the act itself, the
48:37
Speaker 1: murder itself is the sexual gratification.
48:42
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that's what happened here. I don't know.
48:45
Speaker 1: But we have seen many, many, many killers in the
48:48
Speaker 1: past exhibit these same sorts of behavior. Lamoureux emphasized that
48:53
Speaker 1: his comments were speculative as information regarding the defendant is
48:58
Speaker 1: extremely limited at this time. And there's no doubt everything
49:02
Speaker 1: that we talk about is pure speculation at this point.
49:06
Speaker 2: And it's going to stay that way.
49:08
Speaker 1: Until either the gag order is lifted or we get
49:11
Speaker 1: to the trial portion of what's going on here. Because
49:15
Speaker 1: with that gag order, no official sources are going to
49:17
Speaker 1: come out and talk about what's going on behind the scenes.
49:22
Speaker 1: That's over and done with. But there's going to be trickles.
49:25
Speaker 1: There's going to be leaks. And you're going to hear
49:27
Speaker 1: from a lot of these experts who are building profiles
49:31
Speaker 1: on the alleged murderer, Brian Koberger, and using their expertise
49:35
Speaker 1: to do so. He added the authorities have been uncharacteristically
49:40
Speaker 1: non-forthcoming with information, which suggests they are very concerned about
49:45
Speaker 1: protecting the integrity of the investigation itself and subsequent prosecution. Well,
49:50
Speaker 1: if that's the case, they better make sure they deal
49:53
Speaker 1: with that potential conflict of interest because that could end
49:56
Speaker 1: up being real bad for everybody involved, the state, the defendant,
50:01
Speaker 1: and the victim's families. So if the integrity of the
50:03
Speaker 1: case is so important the way they say it is,
50:07
Speaker 1: then they need to make sure that they're doing everything
50:09
Speaker 1: in their power to protect the integrity of the case
50:12
Speaker 1: and not just stamping out transparency. Police have yet to
50:17
Speaker 1: recover the murder weapon used to kill the four students,
50:20
Speaker 1: though they did recover a knife sheath at the crime scene.
50:23
Speaker 2: Cara Kernodle, the mother of Zanna.
50:25
Speaker 1: has indicated she does not want Kohlberger to face the
50:28
Speaker 1: death penalty if convicted. Speaking to News Nation, she said,
50:32
Speaker 1: I want to see him pay for what he's done.
50:34
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in a death penalty. That's not who
50:37
Speaker 1: I am. I don't believe in that, but I do
50:39
Speaker 1: believe he should spend the rest of his days in prison.
50:43
Speaker 1: The city of Moscow Police Department has been contacted for comment,
50:47
Speaker 1: and I don't know why they continue to do that.
50:49
Speaker 1: They're not going to comment on any of this at
50:51
Speaker 1: this point, considering that gag order. So until we either
50:55
Speaker 1: get that gag order lifted or we get to trial,
50:59
Speaker 1: we'll continue to rely on the opinions and the breakdowns
51:03
Speaker 1: of these various experts. All right, everybody, that's going to
51:07
Speaker 1: do it for this one. All of the information that
51:10
Speaker 1: goes along with this episode can be found in the
51:13
Speaker 1: description box.