Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Shōgun with Costume Designer, Carlos Rosario

Transcript

Shōgun with Costume Designer, Carlos Rosario · The Art of Costume Podcast

0:11
We started renting things in Japan and they didn't really.
0:16
First of all, they were not in very good condition.
0:18
They were very expensive. So at the end of the day we made
0:22
about 2300 costumes. We still rented about, you know,
0:28
1000 pieces that we sort of incorporated here and there.
0:43
Hello and welcome to the Art of Costume Podcast.
0:46
I am your host, Spencer Williams, and thank you so much
0:49
for joining me for another bonus episode.
0:53
Hello costume nerds, How art thou?
0:55
Happy spring, Spring and Sprung. I hope you're enjoying plenty of
1:00
time outdoors. I know I am.
1:03
I'm getting outside and having my iced latte walks around the
1:07
neighborhood listening to podcast, enjoying all the
1:10
allergy medication they get to consume on what feels like an
1:14
hourly basis. You know all the good things
1:18
that come with being outside. I want to thank you all first
1:23
for listening. I hope you enjoyed our Star Wars
1:25
and our Loki episode of costume designer Christine WADA.
1:30
Love reading all your messages about those episodes and all the
1:33
costumes you all love. And of course all of the great
1:37
costume facts that came out with the Star Wars episode that
1:39
Elizabeth so brilliantly put together.
1:42
We really enjoy our Star Wars episodes and you know, look
1:45
forward to it every may to celebrate May the Fourth because
1:48
we are real time nerds. With that.
1:52
I am so excited for you all to get into our spring episodes.
1:55
We have a lot of great episodes coming up, the one we're about
1:58
to talk about. We also have The Mummy coming
2:01
soon, which I know I'm dying to talk about.
2:04
Elizabeth was just at the theater seeing it as well.
2:07
It's a A+ movie and then we have some also some really nerdy
2:12
things coming up. For example, we have a follow
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episode coming soon, which I'm very excited about and we're
2:19
finally gonna be talking about the Gilded Age soon.
2:21
And I just gotta say we have an extra special guest for that,
2:24
one that you're all gonna want to hear from 'cause you know,
2:28
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2:31
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Also, we post YouTube videos now every Wednesday on YouTube, so
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visuals later on, join us again on YouTube where you could see
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some of the pictures that we talk about, maybe some of the
3:00
visuals that designers are talking about themselves.
3:02
You can see those on YouTube. With that, let's get to today's
3:05
episode, which is, of course about one of the greatest shows
3:09
on television right now. Shogun.
3:12
I mean, if you haven't seen this show yet, I don't know what to
3:15
say. It is a flawless, beautiful
3:19
series and I just, I loved every second of it.
3:23
Every detail in this series is just, it's a master class.
3:28
I loved it, and I'm so excited to talk about it because there's
3:32
a lot to say. So let's start off a summary.
3:36
Shogun follows the collision of two ambitious men from different
3:40
worlds, John Blackthorne, a risk taking English sailor who ends
3:44
up shipwrecked in Japan, a land whose unfamiliar culture will
3:48
ultimately redefine him, And Lord Toranaga, A shrewd,
3:52
powerful daimyo at odds of his own dangerous political rivals.
3:56
And of course, Lady Mariko, a woman with invaluable skills but
4:01
dishonorable family ties, must prove her value and allegiance,
4:05
and that is Shogun. Now let's dive behind the
4:08
costumes. Shogun was created by Justin
4:11
Marks who is the Co creator and showrunner as well as Co creator
4:14
Rachel Kondo and costume design was done by the one and only
4:19
Carlos Rosario. You wanna know Carlos from a
4:22
very notable career which started with him being an
4:25
illustrator doing films such as Batman and Robin, which if you
4:30
all know me it's one of my favorite Batman films, if not my
4:33
favorite Batman film. Sleepy Hollow, Play of the Apes,
4:37
Chicago and a series of fortunate events.
4:40
That is a collection of titles for which Carlos was an
4:43
illustrator alongside costume designer Colleen Atwood.
4:46
So you know, immediate fan. Carlos was also a ACD on Walk to
4:52
Line, Tron Legacy, Green Lantern and other projects.
4:56
And then Carlos has become a costume designer as well in his
4:59
own right on films such as Don't Breathe and Don't Breathe Too
5:04
The Girl in the Spider's Web and Coming soon, which I am super,
5:08
super excited to talk about Alien Romulus, you know I'm
5:11
going to be all over that film when it comes out.
5:14
I'm so excited. Shogun was just such a great
5:17
show. I am excited for you all to
5:19
listen to this interview as we are joined by Carlos Rosario
5:23
himself to talk about all of the great characters, the textiles,
5:27
the fabrics, the world building, the research, working with
5:31
consultants. I I'm just such a big fan and I
5:36
cannot recommend this series enough.
5:38
So without any more of me blabbing on and on and on, let's
5:42
take a little break and when we come back, we'll be joined by
5:45
Carlos Rosario. I am so excited to finally
6:15
welcome to the podcast someone who I've been dying to me,
6:18
honestly. Costume designer Carlos Rosario.
6:21
Hey, Carlos. Hi, Spencer.
6:24
Thank you for having me. How are you?
6:27
I'm so good. Thank you for coming on.
6:29
I just, I feel like we've been Instagram pals for a little bit.
6:32
So when I found out you were doing the costumes for Shogun
6:35
and I was like, well, I know this is happening, so.
6:37
That's so great. Thank you for having me.
6:39
This is really great to be able to talk to you about this.
6:42
Of course. Awesome.
6:43
Well, I am so excited to talk to you and also talk about this
6:46
epic series with you. Probably unlike most people, I
6:50
have not read the book or seen a previous series that came
6:54
before, which in turns I feel like made this more exciting
6:58
because I I love anything where I feel like I get to learn and
7:01
learn about a culture that I'm really not familiar with.
7:04
So with that, the scale of the show, the beauty of it, it's
7:08
just incredible. So to start from the beginning,
7:12
how familiar were you with the story and the Japanese Sengoku
7:15
period? Well, I mean, I've always been
7:18
sort of fascinated by the Japanese culture, right, And the
7:22
Japanese aesthetic. But I didn't know anything about
7:25
the single period. It really is.
7:27
When I was approached by one of the producers asking me if I was
7:32
interested in interviewing for this show, that I started
7:36
looking into it right. And so when I got the script, I
7:39
immediately didn't really connect with the characters at
7:42
the moment, but I started doing research on the period and I
7:47
really fell in love with the period.
7:49
And so it was during the pandemic actually was at the end
7:52
of the pandemic. So, you know, I think I needed
7:56
to put my energy somewhere. And so I started doing boards
7:58
and boards about everything, makeup and hair about
8:01
everything. And I started doing, you know, I
8:03
think at the end I just ended up with 125 boards and so I edited
8:09
everything to 30 for my first interview.
8:13
And then you know, and that was, you know, my first interview was
8:16
based on that just really speaking about the period and
8:18
all that. But I wasn't really familiar
8:20
with the single period. I didn't read the book and I
8:25
never read the book, mostly because I really wanted to
8:29
design this show from more of an intuitive place, you know, and
8:35
give a chance to this show to be its own version.
8:38
I think that, you know, in the past I've designed The Girl on
8:41
the spider web and you know, it was based also on a book.
8:46
And I started reading the book and when I saw that the book and
8:49
the script were very different, it started creating some kind
8:51
of, you know, comparations and you know, it's becomes this kind
8:56
of mental, you know, torture, you know.
8:59
And so I didn't want to sort of go into that.
9:04
So I didn't read the script. I didn't read the, the novel.
9:08
And then in terms of the ministries from the 80s, I mean
9:12
I was very young. So I knew a couple of you know,
9:15
I remember the visuals, some images.
9:18
I remember obviously Richard Chamberlain, but but that's
9:22
about it. Gotcha.
9:24
So we're kind of in the same boat here, and I have to grip
9:27
you. Sometimes the book is necessary
9:29
and sometimes you need your own space to create a new modern
9:33
creative vision. So I appreciate that.
9:36
So then what did your research process look like then?
9:39
What were you? Were you going to museums?
9:41
Were you looking at paintings? How did that look like?
9:45
So I think that, you know, the most important thing for us was
9:50
to really study the paintings of that period because that's
9:54
really at the end of the day, that's really all you have that
9:58
is really sort of, you know, that really represents
10:02
accurately the essence of that period.
10:05
So we were really in touch with, you know, an incredible expert
10:10
that teaches at the University of Kyoto in Japan, and he's the
10:14
one that really helped us to understand them, understand the
10:17
colors, understand the patterns. And so we went back to that
10:20
source. So that was our, the first step.
10:23
But also we went to all the archives of every single museum
10:26
in the world, right. And just kind of like study all
10:29
the, you know, the pieces that are still, you know, available
10:34
really to the public that we could see and sort of we study
10:37
them. Of course the colors have
10:38
changed, but at least I could see some of the concepts, the
10:41
ideas and that really inspired me.
10:44
And then of course, I mean, you know, we bought a lot of books.
10:46
We did a lot of research online. I had an expert that was working
10:51
with me for 16 months, an expert on textiles, Japanese textiles.
10:57
So she was really guiding me to understand the meaning of each
11:02
one of the patterns of that period, which I really used in
11:05
my textiles and in the mostly the Uchika caucus that I've
11:08
designed for, for the female characters, right.
11:12
And you know, at the end of the day, we did all that research,
11:17
but we were really supported by, you know, experts along the way
11:22
that really guided us. And by the end, I remember one
11:25
of the producers, Kaitlyn Puente, had by the end, by the
11:31
10th episode, she had sort of like a Bible of research of 1000
11:35
pages, right? So it was crazy.
11:37
It was a really different research from the first day to
11:39
the to the last one. Well, that actually leads me to
11:43
my next question. I was going to ask you about
11:44
your collaboration with consultants, historians, but
11:47
maybe also cast and crew. What was that collaboration like
11:51
on set for bringing this, bringing this vision to life?
11:55
So I think that's the, the main consultant that we were in touch
11:59
with with was that I just told you with you know his name is
12:03
Frederick Cranz and he studies, he teaches in in Kyoto.
12:09
So that's, he's the one that really sort of helped us to
12:12
start, right. But at some point, I mean by the
12:16
2nd, 3rd episode, we, you know, we really knew what we needed to
12:21
do, what we needed to design. Then it became more about the
12:24
details and understanding the language of the clothing in
12:27
terms of, you know, the meaning of the patterns, right.
12:30
So that's something that we did on our own.
12:33
But except from him, I think we were really sort of helped by
12:38
mostly by, you know, our lead actor Iro Yuki Sanada, who
12:42
really sort of sort of helped us with the small details and
12:48
understanding sometimes what the character should be wearing in a
12:52
very specific scene, right, and in a specific location.
12:56
Because the clothing, although it seems very simple, kind of
13:01
really changes in based based on the location and the
13:04
circumstances. So it helped.
13:05
He helped us a little bit with that, but otherwise, yes, there
13:09
were a lot of consultants on set, but they were mostly
13:11
consultants about the movements, the gestures, the rituals, you
13:16
know, things like that, the sword fightings, right.
13:19
In terms of costumes, I was mostly in touch with that expert
13:24
in Kyoto. Right.
13:26
I mean, and also textiles play such a huge role in the show as
13:30
I I can only imagine. So can you discuss the
13:34
significance of color and textiles in the costume design
13:38
of Shogun? So you know, the first time I
13:42
sort of read the first script, the first thing that came to me
13:45
before even knowing anything about the period and knowing
13:48
anything about the characters and who they are and all that.
13:52
I, you know, what came to me was all about colors and textures.
13:57
It's really, I mean the question is perfect because it actually
14:01
those are the 2 words that came to me as soon as I read the
14:04
first script, colors and textures.
14:05
So the textures, mostly because I felt like in 1600, it's before
14:11
the Edo period. The Edo period is always
14:14
portrayed on screen in a very kind of sophisticated way.
14:19
And commerce in Japan was very sort of at that moment, you
14:24
know, started to become very powerful.
14:26
And so we are before that. And I just felt like I wanted my
14:29
clothes to be more in touch with nature, to be, to feel more
14:33
organic, more raw, something that would just have texture.
14:37
Because it just felt to me that I wanted to give something a
14:39
touch to these costumes that would feel more, you know,
14:43
period, in a sense, less polished, less shiny in a way,
14:48
right? More rustic in a way.
14:50
So that was for the textures. And I worked on, you know, you
14:53
know, many fabrics that would have that.
14:56
That aspect for each one of my characters in terms of the
14:59
colors, the colors, was very important for me because and
15:03
that's one of the things that I knew about the novel, is that it
15:06
describes Toranaga's army as the Brown army and Ishita's army as
15:13
the Gray army. And so I thought my first
15:17
instinct was, well, if Toranaga's army is brown, by
15:21
extension that should be the colors of their Lord, Toranaga.
15:26
So I thought, what is the most more elevated colors than brown?
15:29
And so I went for Toranaga more into golds and coppers, you
15:34
know, and even Burgundy is because I thought it was really
15:36
a nice touch of, you know, of red in the middle of the gold
15:39
and the copper, right. So I stayed within the So that
15:43
was in the script. It was described in the same way
15:46
that it was in the novel. And for Ishid it was the same
15:49
thing, the concept for Ishido, because I gave a concept for
15:52
each one of my sort of groups, right, of Lords.
15:56
For him, it was more about ash and fire.
15:59
So you know, since it's all Gray, metallic silvers, right?
16:04
So those were the colors for him.
16:06
And then I added a little bit of fire in there, which was the
16:09
orange, right? So the concept for him and all
16:13
his army is Gray and orange. And then I did the same thing
16:16
for all the other Lords. And that was really a way for me
16:19
to sort of conceptualize everything, put everything in
16:23
containers, different containers.
16:25
And that really helped me to be very specific about, you know,
16:29
the territory that I could design from for everybody.
16:33
You know what I mean? Because otherwise there was
16:35
there are so many characters that I needed to start with
16:38
something like that to give me some kind of boundaries between
16:41
everybody all. Right, and one thing I also
16:44
noticed too is that it seemed like the villagers or the
16:47
peasantry also was in blue indigo colors as well too.
16:51
Yeah. So for them, you know, well the
16:55
indigo color is mostly starts being very predominant a little
16:59
bit later, but it's still very present at this moment in the
17:03
Sigong Sigongo period. And so I thought that to me the
17:07
indigo is really, it really sort of to me is the essence of the
17:15
Japanese culture in a way. And so my idea was that the
17:18
first time the pirates sort of Blackthorn and his team get into
17:22
Japan, I really wanted them to access in the essence of Japan,
17:28
the way we we we think of Japan. And, you know, so I really use
17:34
that color only for the, for the villagers, greys and indigos for
17:39
them, because I wanted the clash of their costume being muddy and
17:43
dark and greedy, clashing with the indigo of the Japanese
17:47
villagers, right? And so when you go to the
17:51
streets of Osaka, it's more pale colors with bolder patterns, but
17:56
it's pale. And then when you get to the
17:58
castle with all the Lords, the colors are much more flamboyant
18:03
and, you know, more luxurious in a way.
18:07
I'm I'm obsessed with the show. I feel like I have 2 million.
18:10
Questions. I'm excited to talk about it
18:15
because, you know, I finished this show in June of 2022.
18:19
So it's been a long time and and you know, it was almost two
18:23
years of our lives. We were a whole different people
18:26
back then. Absolutely.
18:27
I mean, I did another movie in between, so it was actually,
18:30
it's actually exciting to be able to talk about it.
18:32
Yeah, well, I I mean, congratulations.
18:34
It's so exciting. And already so many people have
18:38
been talking to me about the show.
18:39
Like, are you watching it? Are you watching it?
18:41
So I think everyone's loving it. So my other question I want to
18:45
ask you was how much a Shogun was built?
18:48
Because the scale of this show is massive.
18:51
There are so many costumes, so many background characters.
18:54
There's a lot. How much of it was built?
18:57
So we pretty much built everything, actually.
19:00
Everything that you see right there on the pictures that
19:04
you're showing, everything has been made.
19:09
So we made everything because of that color palette.
19:13
The color palette was so specific that we had to make
19:17
everything second of all, the characters are very specific,
19:21
right? And for example, Mary Cole, she
19:23
goes through our own emotional journey.
19:26
So you need to design everything for her because you need a
19:29
middle, you know, a beginning, a middle and an end for her.
19:32
And every character sort of travels in different locations,
19:36
is facing different circumstances.
19:38
So it was much better for us to actually make everything so we
19:42
could sort of control the color palette, the aesthetic, you
19:46
know, of the project, the vision of the showrunner, you know the
19:51
showrunners, Justin Marks and and Rachel Kondo and and also
19:55
because we started renting things in Japan and they didn't
19:59
really, first of all they were not in very good condition.
20:03
They were very expensive and it was a completely different color
20:07
palette. So at the end of the day, we
20:10
made about 2300 costumes. We we still rented about you
20:16
know 1000 pieces that we sort of incorporated here and there.
20:21
And we still bought a lot of sort of modern kimonos that we
20:26
died over died and that we used as under layers in a way so we
20:32
could just also coordinate within the female characters,
20:37
the color palette of all the different layers, right.
20:40
So it was pretty big. Yeah.
20:42
I mean I had the most beautiful, incredible, talented work room
20:46
that was working non-stop for like 16 months.
20:49
So it was a treat. It was a treat and also we had
20:52
all the companies around the world helping us to build
20:54
everything. Right.
20:56
Well, I mean, yeah, shout out to the crew that helped make this
20:59
happen. I can't imagine, but everyone
21:01
just did spectacularly. I now want to talk about
21:04
Hiroyuki Sonata, who I think is just one of the greatest actors.
21:08
I love him anything he does. So seeing him take on this role,
21:12
Lord Tornaga, it was such a treat.
21:15
So in designing his costumes, how did he use clothing changes
21:18
to visually emphasize his power and status throughout the
21:22
series? Because he goes through a lot of
21:23
changes, I've noticed. He does go through a lot of
21:27
changes and I'm glad that you noticed that because that was
21:30
really actually the point when when actually we we worked on
21:37
the first episode. I think he has a lot of scenes
21:41
in the first episode and consciously we decided that to
21:47
show his wealth and power we would actually design a
21:50
different outfit for every single one of those scenes.
21:53
So he's the, he's actually the only one that changes that much.
21:57
Actually Marie Kot doesn't even change that much even in the
22:00
first two episodes, right. Then she just, you know, goes to
22:04
sort of Azure, oh, so she starts travelling and so she has to
22:07
change. But you know, I really wanted to
22:11
show the audience the power of Toranaga and, you know, his
22:16
wealth. And it was really important to
22:20
present him in a way that, you know, he's, his rank is above
22:25
everybody else. So he can actually afford to be
22:28
changing costumes every single circumstances.
22:31
But also, it's true that in the first episode, you know, he's
22:34
hunting, he's in the Ceremonial Hall, He's in so many different
22:38
locations. And those different locations
22:40
are actually asking for this character to always wear
22:44
something different. So there was a part that made
22:46
sense historically, but there was also, you know, in a sense
22:50
it also makes sense for for the character itself, for us to show
22:55
to the audience that he was a very powerful Lord.
22:58
I could imagine reading a script just being like, oh, there's
23:01
another one, there's another one.
23:05
You know we we we bought all the fabrics in Japan.
23:08
So when we got the boxes continuously from from you know
23:12
to two two of our customers in in Japan, we fell in love with
23:18
those fabrics and I'm like there is no way they're going back to
23:21
Japan. I have to do something with this
23:23
right. And so, I mean, you know, it was
23:28
important to find those fabrics in Japan.
23:31
I really think that they capture the essence of the Japanese
23:34
culture. And I think when I saw them, I
23:36
was like, you know, I really need to use this and just, you
23:40
know, create as many outfits for Toranaga.
23:44
Well, so there is obviously a lot of action in this series,
23:47
which in turn brings a lot of mess sometimes.
23:50
I'm curious to know well your aging and dying slash breakdown
23:54
process look like. It's one of my favorite aspects
23:56
of costume design, and it just was so fun to see in this
24:00
series. Thank you.
24:02
It is actually I feel the same way as you.
24:04
I think that that is one of my favorite departments because I
24:08
think that really is what brings life and depth to the costume
24:13
you know and you know and so I we had, we were lucky because in
24:20
for the first four or five episodes we worked with Matt,
24:23
Matt Reitzman, who has been the textile artist for The Last
24:28
Samurai and then was a vacation. So he came on board for the
24:32
first five episodes. It was only available for five,
24:36
but you know, then he went to, he was busy with another
24:39
project. We'll take what we could get.
24:42
Yeah, no, no, it was amazing. And so he really helped me to
24:44
start the project and he also was very knowledgeable about,
24:48
you know, Japanese textiles and the meaning of all the patterns
24:50
and and all that. So that was great.
24:52
And then and then the last five episodes I worked with two
24:57
Canadian textile artist Samantha and Lenny Campbell.
25:02
And so you know it was very different process with Matt.
25:07
He comes with all his sort of he can do anything, he comes with
25:12
all these machines and he can do the sub screens on in the office
25:15
and everything. So it's very technical and it's
25:17
you know, you can you can get as incredibly, you know, creative
25:22
as you want. But at the same time, I feel
25:25
like my best work, it's towards the end because with Samantha
25:30
and Lenny, we we sort of created the textiles in a more sort of
25:36
artistic, creative, organic way, maybe the way it was done at
25:40
that moment, a lot of hand paint.
25:43
And so I think that's the work that I've done towards the end
25:46
is probably even more in alignment with the periods in
25:49
the beginning, right. And it takes always a little bit
25:51
of time to get into it. But so we created all the
25:54
textile textiles, we did a lot of hand painting and you know,
25:59
and we break down pretty much everything, everything that you
26:03
see on create on screen. We, you know, we had about 15
26:06
people, you know, working on breaking down all the armors and
26:10
you know, pretty much everything.
26:11
So I mean it was really important in order to create
26:15
sort of the, you know, the contrast between all these
26:18
different ranks and these different categories of people
26:22
from the village to the streets of Osaka and the castle, right.
26:27
So the breakdown was really a way for us to to define all
26:31
these characters and define the different levels of these
26:33
characters. Having made it to the end, so
26:36
you're saying that there's even more incredible costumes that I
26:39
have to look forward to? Oh, yes, it it gets.
26:43
I mean, yes, absolutely, man. Yeah, from again to episode 66
26:49
is a very, it probably was the most difficult episode to design
26:54
because it incorporated so many flashbacks.
26:58
And so that one I had to start designing probably four months
27:01
before we started shooting. Jeez.
27:03
Well, I'll be calling to you when I get to episode 6.
27:06
There you go. Six and seven are beautiful.
27:08
All the end is beautiful. It really is stunning.
27:11
So this is a good, you know, the beginning is a nice way to get
27:15
introduced into this, emerge into this, this story, this
27:20
characters, and into this period.
27:22
I'm excited to talk about another character, specifically
27:25
Mariko UH. How did he approach the
27:28
evolution of her costumes to reflect her changing character
27:31
arc, especially in terms of empowerment and purpose as she
27:35
goes through her journey? So Mariko was probably the
27:41
character that I was the most stressed out about because she
27:45
has become so iconic, right, because of the show in the 80s
27:50
and she was so beautifully designed by the costume designer
27:54
of that of that show that I knew this one more than anybody else.
27:58
I would, you know, I would be judged for, right?
28:03
But you know, as I was designing the first few episodes, and I
28:08
really needed to start putting my thoughts together about her,
28:12
somebody that worked for me told me that she was able to read up
28:17
to episode 6. And in episode 6 at some point,
28:21
Bruntaro says that the first time he met Mariko, she felt
28:25
very icy. And so that was my starting
28:28
point to design Mariko. Because of what happened to her,
28:33
because she's been dishonored because of what her father has
28:37
done, the fact that she has tried to commit sipuku every
28:41
year, and she's never been allowed to do that, That in a
28:44
way she's been forced to marry Bontaro.
28:49
She lives life in a very sort of lifeless way, in a very
28:53
spiritless way, and without a soul.
28:57
Right. And so I wanted her costumes to
28:59
represent that. And that in a way really gave me
29:04
space later on to design the costumes that would be more in
29:08
alignment with the maracle that she becomes, right.
29:10
So in the beginning I wanted costumes that her costumes
29:13
should be very monochromatic so sort of representing winter.
29:18
So there is a lot of patterns that represent snow over grass.
29:22
You know it's it's just branches without life.
29:27
And as she finds her purpose and she finds her voice and you
29:34
know, she becomes the translator and she connects with Black
29:37
Thorn and she empowers herself. I started introducing the
29:43
Camellias into her costumes. So that was sort of the start of
29:48
the evolution of her costumes. And towards the end you start
29:53
seeing way more patterns, more colors, you know, in a way, as
29:58
she has found her own voice, right.
30:01
And so that was sort of the emotional arc of who she is from
30:05
the beginning to the end. And the only way to design
30:08
Marico was by understanding what happens to her throughout the 10
30:12
episodes. I couldn't just design for the
30:15
first two. I really needed to know what
30:18
everything that she was going through in order to have a
30:21
really wide perspective of what, you know, she needed to look
30:25
like. Love that because on the podcast
30:28
quite often we always talk about how costume design really is
30:31
storytelling through characters and what they wear.
30:34
And I just feel like so much, especially Mariko.
30:37
But a lot of these characters really represent that idea.
30:41
Yeah, I mean, I think all these characters are so complex and
30:45
each one is so different from each other, right?
30:49
And it's a very specific period. The period of the single period
30:52
is a period of transition. So you know it it it was really
30:58
fascinating process to understand who they were right
31:02
and design something specifically for them, their
31:05
rank and you know the circumstances they meet.
31:10
Well, there is one more. Character I do want to talk
31:12
about, which is Blackthorn, who's really falls into a
31:15
situation I don't think he was expecting.
31:18
But there also is a lot of evolution in his character as
31:21
you start to see him be integrated into Japanese
31:25
culture. So how did you show the
31:26
evolution in Blackthorn's character?
31:30
Well, for him I. Wanted him to once, you know, he
31:33
starts obviously with his sort of like, you know breeches and
31:36
blouse and sort of his pirate look, right?
31:39
But very soon in the first episode, they removed that,
31:42
removed that identity from him, and they dress him in a casode,
31:47
right. So the casode is the ancestor to
31:49
the kimono. It's sort of the same, but it's
31:51
a different sort of shape. And it was in a, in a way, a
31:55
very healthy way to start his costumes with something very
32:00
basic, very Japanese, you know, very simple.
32:05
Because then he gave me room to same as miracle, to add more
32:11
Japanese elements to his clothing, to his looks.
32:15
So he starts with a very basic Kosode, and as he's introduced
32:22
more into the Japanese culture and he surrenders also more to
32:26
the Japanese culture, he's adding all those Japanese
32:31
clothing elements. That really sort of makes him
32:36
look way much more like a Japanese character by the end,
32:40
right? And so I I think that was really
32:46
the only way to design him by just sort of slowly adding more
32:50
and more layers, which was really interesting because also
32:52
he changes the, the way he would move, right?
32:56
So in the beginning he's used to his clothing, but then as soon
33:00
as he wears the kosode and then he wears the hakama, the
33:02
tatsukas and the dokuku and the sudanashi and the cataglino and
33:06
everything, it's a different way of moving, it's a different way
33:09
of talking, it's a different way of behaving.
33:12
And I feel like that those restrictions, you know, within
33:15
his clothing really helped him to actually embody the Black
33:19
Thorn that becomes more Japanese as the story progresses, right?
33:24
And one aspect also that I took in consideration when I designed
33:28
him is that in a way he's very powerless in that story.
33:35
Everybody has the power there are in their territory, there
33:38
are in their element. But Blacks Born is sort of like
33:41
the black ship that comes from another country, right?
33:44
He needs to learn everything. And so I wanted to keep his sort
33:50
of color palette very neutral, very muted, very simple, with no
33:55
patterns or anything. So in a way it was a nice
34:00
contrast between him and all the other characters.
34:02
But also it's a way to show well, here's a character that is
34:05
very present within the storyline, but he's also very
34:08
powerless, you know, And so that was my my way of designing Black
34:12
Form. Quite the journey.
34:15
And which you have also been on as well with the series.
34:19
So as we get toward the end, I wanted to ask you what kind of
34:22
impact do you hope the costumes will have on the audience's
34:25
understanding and appreciation of the historical and cultural
34:28
context of the series? Well, you know what I love is?
34:33
Well, I love how well the show is received and how well the
34:36
costumes are received. And I think that everything you
34:39
know, as I've been, you know, doing all these interviews and
34:42
podcasts and and reading the comments online, I can see how
34:46
much people are appreciating the details.
34:49
You know, the effort, the passion that we put into
34:53
respecting this, this culture, but also by being so supported
34:58
by the studio and being able to do our job properly as artists,
35:02
as costume designers, we are also helping the audience to
35:07
emerge themselves into this period way much better than if
35:10
it was done halfway right. So here's the powers of the
35:14
visuals, of just taking care of, you know, all the details, you
35:19
know. And I think that at the end of
35:22
the day, that really is what is helping the show be as
35:26
successful as what it is. So I hope in the future that the
35:29
studios take note of this and understand that in a society in
35:33
which, you know, everybody wants instant gratification of all
35:37
this. You know, products that are
35:39
thrown to us every day, right on all the platforms, right on
35:44
Netflix and all the shows that are done really fast.
35:47
That there is something to say about taking the time to create
35:52
things properly, you know, and taking the time to expect, you
35:56
know, the Japanese culture and the Japanese aesthetic and this
35:59
characters and doing it the right way.
36:01
Ultimately visually, you know, the show benefits from it.
36:05
And I feel like the audience, you know is, you know, connects
36:09
much more with the characters and and with the storyline right
36:13
there. I mean there.
36:14
Really is so much value and just letting artisans be able to have
36:17
the space and the time and the money to be able to just do
36:20
their best work and this shows an example of that.
36:23
So absolutely what? Has.
36:26
Shogun meant to you personally and professionally as a costume
36:30
designer. That's a great question.
36:36
Great question you. Know.
36:37
I think Shogun, what I mean, it has meant so much because I
36:43
think this is the first show as a designer in which I can put
36:47
everything that I know and everything that I've learned.
36:50
So you know, I've been in this business business for almost 30
36:54
years and I've started as an illustrator for a long time.
36:57
Then I was an assistant designer.
36:59
Then I just started a few years ago as a designer, right.
37:02
But this is a great, it was a great opportunity for me to
37:05
finally be able to show everything that I've learned
37:08
along the way. You know by from all this
37:12
incredible designers that I've worked for, you know, and all
37:15
the crews that I've worked for, you know, for the last 30 years
37:19
and all that knowledge and my knowledge also because I used to
37:21
work in fashion also came into into play with also me designing
37:27
this costumes because I always approach everything from more
37:31
like a fashion sort of fashionable rounded perspective,
37:35
right. And so it was just very
37:39
gratifying to be able to to do that, you know, to finally be
37:43
able to to play in a way, you know, with an incredible crew,
37:49
feeling supported by the studio and doing things the right way.
37:53
I I'm so happy. For you.
37:54
And I want to say proud too, even though I just met you, but
37:58
it's really incredible and you should be very proud because
38:01
this is really, truly an incredible show.
38:03
But before I let you go, I do have one last question that's
38:07
actually not Shogun related you and I met.
38:11
We met through. Instagram DMS when we did our
38:14
spooky season talking about Sleepy Hollow and we were
38:17
talking about your illustration work for Colleen Atwood at the
38:21
time on that film and it was one of our most popular episodes.
38:24
So I have to like walk back with you a little bit to that time of
38:28
doing the famous Katrina Van Tassel black and white stripe
38:31
dress. You did an illustration,
38:33
correct? I did.
38:35
I. Did yes, take us back?
38:38
I think. Those are like some of my
38:39
favorite drawings, actually, because they're all, well, black
38:42
and white. And I remember.
38:47
I will always remember. I think that actually is.
38:50
I think that's actually really the moment where I, by looking
38:52
at coming out, would work on Sleepy Hollow, that I realized
38:56
the infinite possibilities that this job provides.
39:00
Because she had all these tables.
39:02
And I remember we were working on Hollywood in Tim Burton's
39:05
warehouse, right? It was this big warehouse.
39:07
And she had put all those tables, and on each table she
39:10
had started like putting. I would see her like alone, like
39:13
quietly in silence, putting all these, like, trims and buttons
39:16
and pieces of fabric, you know, in piles.
39:19
And she would create this pyramids.
39:21
And at that moment I was like, what is she doing?
39:23
You know, what is she going to do with one button?
39:25
And so it was really interesting because she was slowly creating
39:28
from the ground all her characters.
39:31
Right. And at that moment, I was like,
39:33
wow, this is really fascinating. And I've learned so much from
39:36
her. I mean, she's one of the most
39:38
fascinating, powerful, creative, you know, human beings that I've
39:42
met in my life. And I owe her a lot.
39:46
And so I remember doing those drawings and she would always
39:49
come. I think I remember the, the
39:51
references that we would get were mostly paintings, you know,
39:55
And that one was definitely based on paintings.
39:59
And, yeah, and that was one of my favorite drawings because
40:05
obviously Tim Burton likes stripes, right.
40:09
And so that was sort of definitely very, you know,
40:14
accurate in terms of the period. But it also captures the essence
40:18
of Tim Burton and also calling that what style.
40:21
So it was one of my favorite drawings.
40:23
Yeah, it wasn't. That was an incredible job,
40:25
obviously. That's so cool.
40:27
I can't. Believe when you messaged me
40:28
that it was like out of nowhere. But then that's interesting
40:31
though, of you like watching Colleen, that would work.
40:33
Do you feel like just through your career as a assistant
40:37
costume designer, as an illustrator, now that you're
40:40
this really incredible costume designer working on Shogun?
40:42
Did you ever catch yourself just kind of feeling like, oh, like
40:45
Colleen used to do this or, you know, this designer used to do
40:48
this? Like, how much do you feel like
40:49
that? All prepared you for what you're
40:51
doing now? We're so good.
40:53
Well, everything. Everything.
40:54
Because I feel like every single costume designer that I worked
40:57
for works in a completely different way.
41:00
And so that was really interesting for me because now
41:03
you know, like you know, I've designed Alien.
41:05
Alien is so different from Show God.
41:07
We haven't talked. About Alien yet?
41:10
But every approach is different. You know you have to start
41:14
working on a show with a black, black blank canvas, right?
41:18
And so the fact that I was able to work with all this
41:21
incredible, really talented designers and everybody has
41:24
their own different approach of designing a project really helps
41:28
help me to sort of be very versatile, you know, and be very
41:33
be ready to find solutions, you know, in a second.
41:35
And being able to navigate all the different things that we
41:38
face as costume designers on every project and all that.
41:42
You know, I'm the extension of all this incredible designers
41:46
that came before me, you know. So I'm very grateful to all of
41:50
them. I mean, I am really, you know,
41:52
I've learned because of them, you know.
41:53
So all the expertise that I have right now is because of their
41:57
past, you know, and their experiences.
42:00
It's awesome. Well, costume designer Carlos
42:02
Rosario, it has been such a pleasure and honor.
42:05
Thank you so much for coming. And I hope that we could talk
42:08
again soon about your next space film project TV series.
42:13
I'm very excited to talk about because I'm a big nerd.
42:15
So we'll be talking again soon. That's great.
42:18
Thank you for. Having me on the show, that's
42:19
very exciting. Thank you, Spencer.
42:25
The Art of. Costume Podcast is hosted and
42:28
produced by Elizabeth Joy Glass and Spencer Williams.
42:33
Our audio engineering and editing is done by Dan White.
42:37
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42:50
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42:55
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43:00
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