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Ep. 191 - A Biblical View on Masculinity · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Mark Spence: When I had met with this young man named Ryan, who's dating my daughter, I told him to prepare for my daughter, you need to prepare yourself, and the whole adage of things where what are we looking for in a man?
• 1:15
  Mark Spence: Right, it is a man.
• 1:16
  Mark Spence: If you're going to take care of my daughter, you need to be able to be the provider of her, you need to be a protector of her and you need to be a prophet or a priest to lead her.
• 1:24
  Mark Spence: Well, but I would love it if we could maybe just spend a moment here in defining what does it mean to be a biblical man, what does biblical masculinity look like, so that we can take inventory of the people that are listening and say where do I need to check off and what do I need to work on?
• 1:51
  Emeal Zwayne: You guys ever wonder if no, Certain movies and TV shows were the byproduct of either a very bad dream or a psychedelic trip.
• 2:03
  Oscar Navarro: Give me an example.
• 2:04
  Emeal Zwayne: That's how I feel about this podcast.
• 2:05
  Emeal Zwayne: You're not the only one Example.
• 2:08
  Emeal Zwayne: Say out of music, no worse.
• 2:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh Dumbo, that's actually one of the best ever Les Miserables, the Musical.
• 2:18
  Mark Spence: Oh boy, I was so disappointed.
• 2:20
  Emeal Zwayne: I was so sad.
• 2:21
  Emeal Zwayne: What's wrong with you people?
• 2:22
  Oscar Navarro: Someone agrees with me.
• 2:23
  Oscar Navarro: Wait a minute.
• 2:23
  Oscar Navarro: Are you talking about the movie or the actual musical?
• 2:26
  Emeal Zwayne: No, the movie With Russell Crowe, no, that's the movie, the movie, the movie, the musical version of the movie, or the movie version of the musical.
• 2:35
  Oscar Navarro: Okay, that's fair.
• 2:35
  Oscar Navarro: But when you say Les Mis, I think the original format musical, that's good.
• 2:45
  Emeal Zwayne: My introduction to Les Mis in movie format was with Liam Neeson Perfect.
• 2:49
  Emeal Zwayne: Which is one of my absolute favorite movies all the time that one's not a musical right.
• 2:54
  Emeal Zwayne: No, that's why it was so amazing.
• 2:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Look, I'm not anti-musical.
• 2:57
  Emeal Zwayne: There are some things that are like work as musicals right.
• 3:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Not Les Mis or Rob, and not with Russell Crowe.
• 3:04
  Emeal Zwayne: I haven't seen that one.
• 3:05
  Ray Comfort: He was singing.
• 3:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Opera.
• 3:06
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean you go from the gladiator to.
• 3:11
  Emeal Zwayne: How's that again?
• 3:14
  Oscar Navarro: Opera.
• 3:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Opera and he has a horrible voice.
• 3:17
  Emeal Zwayne: The actual musical is actually very good.
• 3:19
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm dying to see it.
• 3:21
  Emeal Zwayne: I haven't.
• 3:21
  Mark Spence: You don't need to die to see it.
• 3:22
  Mark Spence: Yeah, you need to live.
• 3:23
  Mark Spence: Just die a lie.
• 3:24
  Mark Spence: Just die a lie.
• 3:24
  Mark Spence: Just die a lie.
• 3:26
  Oscar Navarro: He has one of the greatest representations of the gospel, the original oh man Seriously like.
• 3:33
  Emeal Zwayne: I even dropped to my knees in repentance after watching it In the theater At Russell Crowe's house.
• 3:40
  Mark Spence: I've seen it twice in London at their big ol' rotating.
• 3:44
  Mark Spence: I don't know what I saw wasn't rotating, but it's really.
• 3:47
  Oscar Navarro: You saw it on a.
• 3:48
  Oscar Navarro: Ferris wheel On a Ferris Didn't you see it in London as well.
• 3:51
  Oscar Navarro: No, I didn't get a chance.
• 3:52
  Oscar Navarro: That was the one I missed.
• 3:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I really want to see it, but where the wild things.
• 3:57
  Emeal Zwayne: Are you guys ever seen that movie?
• 3:58
  Emeal Zwayne: I don't know.
• 3:59
  Emeal Zwayne: I've read the book.
• 4:00
  Oscar Navarro: I used to love that book as a kid.
• 4:01
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, actually, I have seen the movie.
• 4:03
  Oscar Navarro: I liked it.
• 4:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Wait wait, oh, really One of the worst movies I've ever seen Wait what?
• 4:09
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, well, they hooked me with the trailer and they show this giant dog walking across like a desert landscape.
• 4:15
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm like this is awesome.
• 4:16
  Emeal Zwayne: In the movie they show the dog for like a Zepto second.
• 4:19
  Emeal Zwayne: A Zepto second.
• 4:21
  Emeal Zwayne: Basically, I like it.
• 4:22
  Emeal Zwayne: Okay, do you remember when that dude swallowed that guy?
• 4:25
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, you thought that was cool.
• 4:27
  Oscar Navarro: I thought it was very artistic.
• 4:28
  Oscar Navarro: It was an artistic representation of the belly of the well, one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen, so guys, when we're talking about movies, we're not talking about modern, blasphemous, foul mouth six filled movies.
• 4:39
  Ray Comfort: We're talking about wholesome movies that Christians could perhaps go to.
• 4:42
  Ray Comfort: Yeah.
• 4:43
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, maybe aided with Clear Play.
• 4:45
  Emeal Zwayne: I don't know exactly what to know.
• 4:45
  Emeal Zwayne: I use Clear Play or Vid Angel usually.
• 4:48
  Ray Comfort: Well, let's go to that.
• 4:49
  Emeal Zwayne: One last one, to Mark's chagrin, one of the worst movies ever made Elf what Elf.
• 4:57
  Oscar Navarro: Oh, come on, Stop it.
• 4:58
  Oscar Navarro: You guys are serious.
• 4:59
  Oscar Navarro: You're the only person I've ever heard in my entire life that doesn't like the movie Elf.
• 5:04
  Oscar Navarro: It's a modern classic.
• 5:06
  Emeal Zwayne: How it's a classic classic how this grown up man pretending to be a little boy or whatever.
• 5:11
  Emeal Zwayne: It actually isn't one of my favorite movies.
• 5:14
  Mark Spence: No, I mean Mark you love that movie.
• 5:16
  Emeal Zwayne: I don't love it.
• 5:18
  Mark Spence: No, I think we're thinking of a different Will Ferrell movie.
• 5:21
  Oscar Navarro: No, it's not Kicking and Screaming.
• 5:22
  Oscar Navarro: The other one that he plays in Elfin you raved about.
• 5:25
  Emeal Zwayne: Elfin.
• 5:26
  Mark Spence: Kicking and Screaming when he's inside the park and these little kids are singing happy birthday to each other and he's on the phone trying to have a conversation and he yells at the little kids saying shut up, You're not the only ones in the park, you know?
• 5:37
  Mark Spence: It was hilarious yeah.
• 5:40
  Emeal Zwayne: Absolutely.
• 5:40
  Emeal Zwayne: He blew it on Elf man.
• 5:41
  Emeal Zwayne: He blew it on Elf Okay, and finally, the worst of the worst, of the worst movies ever made Ben Hurd, ben.
• 5:50
  Ray Comfort: Hurd, don't you dare Mark Spence Okay.
• 5:53
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark Spence.
• 5:54
  Ray Comfort: I knew that was.
• 5:55
  Ray Comfort: I actually had the same thought.
• 5:56
  Ray Comfort: He's going to say Ben Hurd, just to try and needle me, I'm going to tip this table in the studio upside down.
• 6:01
  Emeal Zwayne: We are seriously starting to share a brain.
• 6:03
  Oscar Navarro: That is insane.
• 6:04
  Oscar Navarro: He's upsetting everybody right now, by the way.
• 6:07
  Ray Comfort: But I had the same thought.
• 6:07
  Ray Comfort: I thought this is going to be Ben Hurd.
• 6:09
  Ray Comfort: You're so predictable?
• 6:11
  Emeal Zwayne: No, the best, one of the best ever.
• 6:12
  Ray Comfort: Love and Hurd.
• 6:14
  Emeal Zwayne: I had to go to Ray somehow.
• 6:15
  Ray Comfort: Yeah.
• 6:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah.
• 6:16
  Ray Comfort: I can handle it.
• 6:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and again, what I really hate is when the trailer is phenomenal and the movie stinketh.
• 6:23
  Mark Spence: Well, it's funny, the people that make the trailers are.
• 6:25
  Mark Spence: Typically they have nothing to do with the movie.
• 6:27
  Mark Spence: They go outside do a third party company.
• 6:29
  Mark Spence: They create it, you give them access to the film, they make it and they do an amazing job.
• 6:33
  Emeal Zwayne: I think that's actually smart, don't you Mark, that they're disconnected from it?
• 6:36
  Emeal Zwayne: I don't know, I don't have much.
• 6:38
  Mark Spence: I don't know what I can compare it to.
• 6:39
  Mark Spence: I do know that there's an award you can get for best trailer, yet worst film.
• 6:45
  Mark Spence: It tells you a lot about the editing abilities of that editor.
• 6:48
  Emeal Zwayne: But we joke, you guys ever seen Studio C?
• 6:51
  Emeal Zwayne: You've seen Studio?
• 6:51
  Mark Spence: C videos.
• 6:52
  Mark Spence: Oh yeah, sure.
• 6:53
  Emeal Zwayne: They do this one where the trailer gives away the entire movie, the whole movie.
• 6:57
  Emeal Zwayne: There are some trailers like that.
• 7:00
  Mark Spence: Oh, I used to love Studio C.
• 7:01
  Mark Spence: Yeah, you used to.
• 7:03
  Emeal Zwayne: I haven't seen them in years.
• 7:04
  Emeal Zwayne: No, I must.
• 7:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, they're pretty funny.
• 7:07
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, oscar.
• 7:09
  Emeal Zwayne: It's good to be back From the land of.
• 7:12
  Oscar Navarro: Singapore.
• 7:12
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, it was an amazing experience.
• 7:14
  Oscar Navarro: How'd it go?
• 7:14
  Oscar Navarro: Tell us about it.
• 7:16
  Oscar Navarro: It was awesome.
• 7:17
  Oscar Navarro: I got to speak at a really good sized church out there.
• 7:18
  Oscar Navarro: They blessed me with the opportunity to go out there.
• 7:20
  Oscar Navarro: It happened to be on my wife and I's 12 year wedding anniversary, so we ended up spending that in Singapore.
• 7:26
  Oscar Navarro: I got to preach on our anniversary in Singapore, but something that Mark would hate is the Singaporean food vibe.
• 7:32
  Oscar Navarro: So in Singapore they have these things called hawker centers and hawker centers and basically what they did is they like street food was a major culture in Singapore.
• 7:43
  Oscar Navarro: But, as they wanted to kind of clean up the streets and make it more available for tourism, they created these hawker centers where they pushed all the street vendors into and so the locals go there to eat and you can like get dishes for $2.00.
• 7:55
  Oscar Navarro: And there's like food I've never even heard of before.
• 7:57
  Oscar Navarro: And so my strategy was I'd walk into the hawker center, I'd find the longest line, I'd get in it and I'd get to the front.
• 8:05
  Oscar Navarro: I'd just be like I'll take whatever everyone else is having and I ate some of the most incredible food.
• 8:10
  Oscar Navarro: I have no idea what I was eating, but it was so good.
• 8:14
  Mark Spence: Did you get sick?
• 8:16
  Oscar Navarro: I did not get sick, it was just awesome.
• 8:18
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, I ate a lot of food.
• 8:19
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm daring.
• 8:19
  Emeal Zwayne: I would never do that.
• 8:20
  Emeal Zwayne: Give me what everyone else is having.
• 8:24
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, but that's intelligent though, isn't it?
• 8:25
  Ray Comfort: Because it's obviously popular.
• 8:27
  Emeal Zwayne: And the locals like that.
• 8:28
  Emeal Zwayne: But popular isn't always best.
• 8:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Manudo is popular in Mexico.
• 8:32
  Emeal Zwayne: I do like Manudo.
• 8:32
  Mark Spence: Manudo is the best.
• 8:34
  Oscar Navarro: First off, there's no such thing as Manudo Cow and test time.
• 8:38
  Oscar Navarro: Manudo is great.
• 8:39
  Ray Comfort: Would you have Cow and test time?
• 8:40
  Ray Comfort: I've got human and test time.
• 8:42
  Ray Comfort: What are you talking about?
• 8:44
  Emeal Zwayne: No, actually I do like the Manudo flavor.
• 8:46
  Oscar Navarro: I don't like the actual intestines, but See, I don't care what kind of meat it is, as long as I don't know what it is.
• 8:51
  Oscar Navarro: Mystery meat, yeah.
• 8:53
  Oscar Navarro: If it tastes good, I'm in Whatever, is it true?
• 8:57
  Emeal Zwayne: Is it true that black coffee is not illegal in Singapore?
• 8:59
  Oscar Navarro: Chewing- gum and black coffee are illegal.
• 9:00
  Oscar Navarro: Okay, so I found out that black coffee is definitely not illegal.
• 9:02
  Oscar Navarro: By the way, the coffee scene is incredible.
• 9:04
  Oscar Navarro: Shout out to Common man Roasters, Singapore.
• 9:06
  Oscar Navarro: We're actually rated number 25 in Christian podcasts in Singapore, number 36 on Religion in Singapore, which is really neat.
• 9:15
  Oscar Navarro: But, yeah, okay.
• 9:15
  Oscar Navarro: So chewing gum it is a $2,500 fine to litter, which includes spitting your gum out.
• 9:23
  Emeal Zwayne: I didn't one of the monarchs there once make it illegal, I think gum at some point.
• 9:29
  Oscar Navarro: So I got clarity on this.
• 9:30
  Oscar Navarro: It's illegal to bring gum into the country.
• 9:32
  Oscar Navarro: No, I'm serious.
• 9:34
  Oscar Navarro: But it's not illegal to buy gum and chew gum in the country, as long as you don't spit it out.
• 9:39
  Ray Comfort: Oh, that's really funny.
• 9:40
  Ray Comfort: And don't let them.
• 9:41
  Ray Comfort: They set cheeky for drugs and chewing gum.
• 9:44
  Emeal Zwayne: Exactly, yeah, yeah, this guy has cocaine and some wriggly.
• 9:46
  Emeal Zwayne: My wife.
• 9:47
  Oscar Navarro: Kelly right now is sitting in a Singaporean prison because she brought chewing gum.
• 9:51
  Oscar Navarro: Some big, big chew.
• 9:53
  Ray Comfort: There we go, sharing the brain again.
• 9:55
  Ray Comfort: That's funny.
• 9:56
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, you need to.
• 9:59
  Emeal Zwayne: All right, friends.
• 9:59
  Emeal Zwayne: Enough of that stupidity.
• 10:00
  Emeal Zwayne: A comment from Skyler Aik A-I-C-H Transformative Resource.
• 10:07
  Emeal Zwayne: This podcast is my go-to listen for the drives to work.
• 10:10
  Emeal Zwayne: The banter reminds me of click and clacks car talk, while the topics and conversations are informative and life-changing.
• 10:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray, mark, easy and Oscar provide encouragement for me to share the gospel with family, friends and any person with a pulse.
• 10:23
  Emeal Zwayne: In my church I've been known as the Living Waters guy, not because I push the Living Waters agenda, but because they have noticed I'm comfortable and excited to speak about the Bible, apologetics and evangelism.
• 10:33
  Emeal Zwayne: And they wonder how do you know this stuff?
• 10:35
  Emeal Zwayne: And my answer usually is I learned it from a book or study or tract or movie or YouTube video or audio book or podcast episode or the evidence study Bible from LivingWaterscom.
• 10:48
  Emeal Zwayne: Let me put a bunch of Rs like the way I say it.
• 10:52
  Emeal Zwayne: I've also got to say don't cry.
• 10:53
  Emeal Zwayne: As easy as easy.
• 10:55
  Emeal Zwayne: But a recent episode with Pat Nemmers had me choked up in tears right before getting out of the car to head to my office.
• 11:01
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm so grateful for this podcast and this ministry.
• 11:04
  Emeal Zwayne: I encourage any and all Christians to take a listen and take advantage of the resources provided by this incredible ministry.
• 11:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, man, what a comment, thank you.
• 11:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you, skyler.
• 11:14
  Emeal Zwayne: I hope you guys touch us and take heed to his advice and visit the LivingWaterscom.
• 11:21
  Oscar Navarro: By the way, anybody who has not listened to that episode yet with Pat Nemmers, I believe it's something on suffering.
• 11:25
  Oscar Navarro: It was probably 20 or 30 episodes ago.
• 11:27
  Emeal Zwayne: We did one on leadership with him, not 20 or 30, but maybe 10 or something.
• 11:31
  Emeal Zwayne: We did one on leadership with him.
• 11:32
  Oscar Navarro: We did one on walking through pain and suffering or something to that effect, and Pat shares a heart wrenching story about losing his wife and having to tell his kids, but it's also beautiful and hopeful.
• 11:41
  Oscar Navarro: So if you haven't listened to that episode, we encourage you to go back and take a peek.
• 11:45
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah amen.
• 11:46
  Emeal Zwayne: All right friends.
• 11:47
  Emeal Zwayne: This podcast is about to get pie.
• 11:48
  Emeal Zwayne: The Curved Illusion Tracked the very first tract I ever saw Ray Comfort hold in his hand.
• 11:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Remember that, ray.
• 11:58
  Ray Comfort: Yes, curved Illusion.
• 11:59
  Ray Comfort: He came to speak at the church.
• 11:59
  Ray Comfort: Oh, I remember.
• 12:00
  Ray Comfort: I thought he was talking about the track not you.
• 12:04
  Emeal Zwayne: They were pink and blue back then, I think we mentioned that before they were bigger.
• 12:07
  Ray Comfort: Did we change them because of the pink being women and blue being men?
• 12:12
  Emeal Zwayne: No, I just think blue and red, they're common colors and they pop.
• 12:15
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, more pop, yeah, more pop.
• 12:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, more pop.
• 12:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Pink is a new black by the way, yeah it is.
• 12:18
  Emeal Zwayne: So make sure to check it out, friends.
• 12:22
  Emeal Zwayne: The Curved Illusion Tracked.
• 12:23
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget the Living Waters mug and the evidence study Bible, all at Living Waters.
• 12:29
  Oscar Navarro: By the way, we really encourage you guys to buy the mug.
• 12:31
  Oscar Navarro: The new thing to do it's trending all over social media.
• 12:34
  Oscar Navarro: We encourage you to do it as well and post your pictures is to draw funny looking mustaches on Mark and EZ's face, so feel free to pick up the mug and participate.
• 12:43
  Emeal Zwayne: We had someone come visit the ministry and I think they were feeding their bird bird food.
• 12:47
  Ray Comfort: The mug.
• 12:49
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, anyway, for whatever reason, all right, friends, today we are veering into a very interesting topic, but a necessary one nonetheless the biblical view on Masculinity.
• 13:02
  Ray Comfort: Now, speaking of Masculinity, I've got to tell you what happened yesterday.
• 13:04
  Ray Comfort: It's the first.
• 13:05
  Ray Comfort: I was riding my bike with it my bike with a dog on the front of the bike and I passed two women.
• 13:09
  Ray Comfort: Never had this happen before.
• 13:11
  Ray Comfort: One of the women went as I went past and I thought I'd still got it and then move over to Cameron.
• 13:19
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, a little cat called version there, yeah.
• 13:22
  Ray Comfort: It's for the dog or me, I'm not sure Hard dog, what kind of sound is that.
• 13:29
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, no, we started the first time that hurts.
• 13:34
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, guys.
• 13:34
  Emeal Zwayne: So biblical Masculinity.
• 13:36
  Emeal Zwayne: I think, Oscar, this podcast was your idea.
• 13:38
  Emeal Zwayne: We're going to do one on biblical femininity after this as well.
• 13:42
  Emeal Zwayne: That's a funny word when you think of femininity.
• 13:44
  Ray Comfort: Femininity is femininity.
• 13:45
  Ray Comfort: It's like who we are.
• 13:50
  Emeal Zwayne: Femininity.
• 13:51
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, this is an important topic because, as we know, masculinity and femininity have both been radically distorted in our culture and it's high time that we get back to what scripture says on it.
• 14:05
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, our world is destroyed because of departure from God's truth on this topic Many others of course too, but on this one in particular for our purposes today and the ramifications are so far worse and I think people realize, and I think it's the proverbial frog in the pot and we've been slowly being boiled and femininity.
• 14:27
  Ray Comfort: We've got to move it to the frog in the microwave.
• 14:29
  Ray Comfort: Things are happening faster than what we used to.
• 14:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, that's true.
• 14:33
  Emeal Zwayne: So I want to jump into it, guys, and just start to explore this.
• 14:37
  Emeal Zwayne: Why would you guys say it's such a top agenda item for the world to distort biblical masculinity?
• 14:46
  Mark Spence: I think the world is always trying to attack God and his ordered plan, right, so this is an attack on a Mago day.
• 14:52
  Mark Spence: This is very, very key, and this is the future, really, of apologetics, where man attacks man, created in the image of God, right, and this is why our next episode after this is a biblical view on what it means to be feminine, right, so we have to always go back to our ultimate source of authority, which is the word of God.
• 15:14
  Mark Spence: So this isn't new and we need to be ready for this attack.
• 15:18
  Mark Spence: So I'm actually very excited that Oscar spearheaded this whole idea to deal with this, and excited to see what he's going to come up with.
• 15:23
  Mark Spence: Yeah, I got nothing.
• 15:25
  Oscar Navarro: I like that you're referencing Genesis three, because you're right, easy's right, there's an attack on it.
• 15:30
  Ray Comfort: So I'm not right, not yet.
• 15:33
  Mark Spence: Well, we'll see yeah it gets to be seen.
• 15:35
  Oscar Navarro: I'm really curious to see all the things I have to say about femininity.
• 15:37
  Oscar Navarro: No, but, mark, you're right.
• 15:41
  Oscar Navarro: Genesis is where it starts and what you see is the first demise of masculinity comes from Adam, in the sense that he abdicates his throne as the king, as the man of the garden, if you will.
• 15:52
  Oscar Navarro: He is designed to be the prophet, priest and king of the land, and he fails as a prophet.
• 15:57
  Oscar Navarro: He fails as a prophet when he lies and blames the women.
• 16:01
  Oscar Navarro: He fails as a priest when he doesn't protect her.
• 16:03
  Oscar Navarro: And he fails as a king when he abdicates his throne and ultimately gets kicked out of the garden.
• 16:07
  Oscar Navarro: And then you see a response from Eve, which she'll have a desire over, which is an authoritative challenge.
• 16:14
  Oscar Navarro: So right there in Genesis, you see the beginning of this contention of what it means to be a man, a failure from a man, and also what it means to respond to being a man, which is a challenge from the woman, and it hasn't stopped in every culture, but the challenge.
• 16:30
  Oscar Navarro: I think I did recommend this, maybe a little too early, because I'm still.
• 16:35
  Oscar Navarro: I've read a handful of books on it.
• 16:36
  Oscar Navarro: I've been really curious about it.
• 16:38
  Oscar Navarro: I'm interested in what it means.
• 16:40
  Oscar Navarro: To try to boil down and distill what biblical manhood is, because the challenge is, we have a lot of cultural interpretations.
• 16:51
  Oscar Navarro: I think there's two cultural narratives as what it means to be a man, and both of those narratives fall short of the scriptural narrative.
• 16:58
  Oscar Navarro: And on top of that, I confessionally tend to impose cultural standards and expectations that are extra biblical on what it means to be a man.
• 17:09
  Oscar Navarro: And, just as an example, if you think back throughout history, think about how we think of masculinity today, like in the fifties, men wore cowboy boots and you had cowboy culture.
• 17:19
  Oscar Navarro: In the seventies, it was motorcycles.
• 17:21
  Oscar Navarro: In the 10th century Persia, though, men wore high heels.
• 17:25
  Oscar Navarro: That's where high heels started, was for men.
• 17:29
  Ray Comfort: Sounds right to me In 16th century men wore wigs.
• 17:33
  Oscar Navarro: In Missa, petamia or Scotland, men wore skirts to war.
• 17:36
  Oscar Navarro: In Egyptian culture, men wore jewelry.
• 17:39
  Oscar Navarro: In ancient Egypt, in Japan, in the Victorian era, men wore makeup.
• 17:44
  Oscar Navarro: As a matter of fact, it wasn't until the 1800s where makeup became a feminine product only.
• 17:49
  Oscar Navarro: And in Jesus's day, like in our day, I was taught men don't cry, but in Jesus's day men cried.
• 17:55
  Oscar Navarro: It was a form of expression that was totally accepted and considered good and beautiful when men cried.
• 18:02
  Oscar Navarro: So what does it mean to be a masculine man?
• 18:06
  Oscar Navarro: We're gonna bring our own interpretations to it, and we have to be careful when discipling other people that we don't impose cultural standards, but rather we truly get back to what the Bible says about biblical masculinity.
• 18:19
  Mark Spence: Well, that's a great introduction.
• 18:20
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, that's really good, oscar, and I think, though, the fine line in trying to discern that is where is it appropriate to follow cultural norms, because that's what the interpretation is of what manhood is or womanhood is in a given context.
• 18:40
  Emeal Zwayne: So, for example, yeah, it's cultural in other eras or other contexts, nations where men wore skirts or dresses or whatever.
• 18:51
  Emeal Zwayne: The Romans wore many skirts, yeah, right, well, the Irish and the Scottish right Do as well.
• 18:57
  Emeal Zwayne: You know what I'm saying, but obviously within our context here, if a man were to wear a dress, what have you done?
• 19:06
  Mark Spence: Ray, comfort Ray is having the heart of the time with a cup.
• 19:11
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, the cup's got a mind of its own.
• 19:13
  Ray Comfort: That's what I'm just trying to control.
• 19:15
  Emeal Zwayne: So what I'm saying is like, within our culture, a man to wear a dress, that's clearly something that pertains to a woman within our culture, and so I think there are times when we have to.
• 19:26
  Emeal Zwayne: I think the same thing with language.
• 19:28
  Emeal Zwayne: There are words in New Zealand that you may say that are not seen as profanity, but here they are, like what?
• 19:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray knows them all.
• 19:39
  Oscar Navarro: I think the challenges as we move into a plural and I agree with you I think the challenges as we move into a pluralistic society and as cultural, because culture is not a fixed thing Culture's always changing.
• 19:52
  Oscar Navarro: In my perspective, like I remember in my 20s and in college, all of my friends were wearing skinny jeans and it got to the point where some of the guys were buying girl jeans because they wanted the skinny jeans and all the older guys were like you guys are wearing girl clothes, like that's ridiculous.
• 20:08
  Oscar Navarro: And then today, like I talk to a lot of Gen Zers and I see guys with black nail polish.
• 20:14
  Oscar Navarro: Okay, I don't feel comfortable with that, that's not my thing.
• 20:18
  Oscar Navarro: You will never see me putting nail polish on.
• 20:19
  Oscar Navarro: But as I'm discipling men, I have to be careful not to impose my generational cultural expectations on them.
• 20:27
  Oscar Navarro: Where I'm like why are you putting black nail polish on, dude?
• 20:29
  Oscar Navarro: Like because it's a cultural standard that I'm imposing.
• 20:33
  Oscar Navarro: That's not biblical, right, it's extra biblical.
• 20:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I mean this is a really no, it's a really good discussion.
• 20:42
  Emeal Zwayne: Obviously, we know we're not under law, but principally I mean, look at Deuteronomy 225, a man's not to wear what pertains to a woman, a woman's not to wear what pertains to a man.
• 20:50
  Emeal Zwayne: Obviously that's cultural, because even within the Hebrew culture at the time, there were others around that may have wore things that they wouldn't have worn within their context.
• 21:00
  Emeal Zwayne: So I think it's definitely one to tease out.
• 21:03
  Emeal Zwayne: I would say for a man to walk around wearing a dress, makeup, nail polish, high heels, in our context is something that would be inappropriate.
• 21:12
  Emeal Zwayne: I agree, yeah, so yeah, I know we're saying the same thing.
• 21:15
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm just trying to kind of you know clarify.
• 21:17
  Mark Spence: Well then, I agree, yeah, I agree, yeah, I agree, I agree, oscar, are you saying, for sake of argument, let's major on the majors, right?
• 21:26
  Mark Spence: So maybe that is something that you would eventually address, but if somebody's coming to you, they wanna be discipled or they're inside your sphere of influence and you know that you can speak into their life.
• 21:36
  Mark Spence: You're just simply saying I don't need to point that thing out right now, but as they mature, as they grow, eventually I wanna address that because of the appearance that it has.
• 21:46
  Oscar Navarro: Yes, that's a great way of putting it.
• 21:48
  Oscar Navarro: Absolutely it's not a primary issue.
• 21:50
  Oscar Navarro: Like it's not a red flag issue for me.
• 21:52
  Oscar Navarro: Like if someone comes to church and intoxicated, that's a red flag issue.
• 21:56
  Oscar Navarro: If a guy comes to church with black nail polish, that's not a red flag issue.
• 22:00
  Ray Comfort: What about red nail polish?
• 22:01
  Emeal Zwayne: That is a red flag issue, so yeah, let me get Ray in on this Oscar real quick.
• 22:05
  Emeal Zwayne: So, ray, what do you think about that?
• 22:07
  Emeal Zwayne: Because this can transfer over to hair.
• 22:10
  Emeal Zwayne: It can transfer over to earrings, right?
• 22:12
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, there was a time when it really stood out if a man had longer hair.
• 22:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Within New Testament, first century culture, it's believed that men didn't have hair as long as we see them depicted in paintings, but it was longer than what would be the clean cut modern American man.
• 22:26
  Emeal Zwayne: But you know, earrings, those were like whoa when men first started wearing earrings.
• 22:30
  Emeal Zwayne: They've become more common.
• 22:31
  Emeal Zwayne: What do you think about that?
• 22:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Does that bother you or do you think some of it is cultural, that there are changes that can happen?
• 22:37
  Ray Comfort: It doesn't bother me, but it should bother any new believer to be concerned about what other people think of him.
• 22:43
  Ray Comfort: Like Mark said, the appearance.
• 22:45
  Ray Comfort: And so if I was to talk to a non-believer that was wearing lipstick a guy, yeah, I'd say you got the liberty, put lipstick on your one if you want, but you can offend a lot of people, especially the older generation, because it's just.
• 22:57
  Ray Comfort: It's just against nature, so to speak, in our culture.
• 23:01
  Ray Comfort: I remember when I became a Christian I got my haircut.
• 23:04
  Ray Comfort: It used to be just look like plumbers rope hanging on my shoulders.
• 23:06
  Ray Comfort: I got it trimmed only because I didn't want to offend anybody.
• 23:11
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, I just wanted to clean up for the sake of my new Christian testimony, and so it should reflect what's in our heart never to cause any other Christian to stumble by what we do or say or where.
• 23:21
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, that's really good.
• 23:22
  Emeal Zwayne: That's good and, like I've always said, you know, I believe as Christians our aim should be to maximize our effectiveness as much as possible, and a part of that includes minimizing our offense Towards others within measure.
• 23:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Of course, you can almost offend anyone with anything you do, but what's the motive in the heart behind it?
• 23:40
  Emeal Zwayne: I think we should strive to say look, of course there's a cultural context.
• 23:43
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, I'm not gonna talk to a brother who may be wearing a woman's skirt here in the US the way I would talk to a guy in Scotland who's wearing a kill.
• 23:53
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, I mean it's, you have to be sensitive to that.
• 23:55
  Emeal Zwayne: But I do think, like we're talking about a cultural context has some bearing on some of these Principles we find in scripture and man not wearing what pertains to woman, a woman wearing what pertains to a man.
• 24:05
  Emeal Zwayne: So yeah, so go ahead.
• 24:07
  Emeal Zwayne: Oscar, you're gonna say that's really good.
• 24:09
  Oscar Navarro: You mentioned not causing offense.
• 24:10
  Oscar Navarro: I think that's really hard for someone like me with a face like this.
• 24:13
  Oscar Navarro: I'm offending everybody all the time.
• 24:14
  Oscar Navarro: Very true, that's why I only do a podcast.
• 24:17
  Oscar Navarro: No, I think there's two.
• 24:18
  Oscar Navarro: So I talked earlier about two narratives, the two narratives out there.
• 24:21
  Oscar Navarro: In culture there's that seems to be felt necessity to emasculate masculinity, and that narrative is essentially the nuclear family is patriarchal and masculinity is Intrinsically toxic.
• 24:35
  Oscar Navarro: That's the narrative that's out there.
• 24:37
  Oscar Navarro: And the problem with this narrative is it doesn't know what to do with men's God-given roles.
• 24:42
  Oscar Navarro: They view men as a problem to be solved Rather than a role to be celebrated and cultivated which is given to us by God.
• 24:52
  Oscar Navarro: And the problem with that too is that I think men feel Ellen alienated, frustrated and Instunted and these God ordained ways in which he has called us to love and lead and protect Both women, children, vulnerable in the world around us, we don't know like, if you ask much of the culture, there's no place for masculinity.
• 25:18
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, it needs to be Masculated.
• 25:20
  Oscar Navarro: It's a danger Someone said it like this in a betrayal of the integral union of manly traits and ethical excellence that the etymology of the term virtue implies, modern visions of the good man are seldom of someone who is very good at being a man.
• 25:39
  Oscar Navarro: So, in other words, we just don't have a place for true masculinity in much of the culture, because it's a fear no, but there's also.
• 25:48
  Oscar Navarro: So that's emasculating masculinity.
• 25:50
  Oscar Navarro: And then there's a response that's also not biblical, which is toxic masculinity.
• 25:54
  Oscar Navarro: And toxic masculinity is prevalent in our culture as well.
• 25:58
  Oscar Navarro: The traditional Christian view of masculinity has been mostly replaced by secularism, social Darwinism and the Industrial Revolution.
• 26:09
  Oscar Navarro: And so, if you think about, like pagans in the 15th century, they treated marriage as a legal contract to procreate and extra merit affairs was common.
• 26:19
  Oscar Navarro: And then on comes the Christian scene.
• 26:22
  Oscar Navarro: You know, 2000 years ago, and the husband was expected to be faithful to their wives.
• 26:27
  Oscar Navarro: This was very unusual in pagan culture.
• 26:30
  Oscar Navarro: They are supposed to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
• 26:35
  Oscar Navarro: Masculinity was a rare thing in pagan culture and it was very unusual.
• 26:40
  Oscar Navarro: And the problem is that in the Industrial Revolution, during the Industrial Revolution, something radical changed when it comes to men.
• 26:48
  Oscar Navarro: In the Industrial Revolution, men went to work away from the home.
• 26:52
  Oscar Navarro: You see, pre Industrial Revolution, men worked in the home alongside their wives and their children.
• 26:59
  Oscar Navarro: If I was a carpenter in the 1400s, my workshop would be in my home, my children would work with me, my wife would help with the finances and maybe be a.
• 27:10
  Oscar Navarro: As someone came and ordered something, she might be the one that takes the order and gets the measurements and etc.
• 27:15
  Oscar Navarro: We worked together as a family, which means the husband was home to disciple their children, to be with their wives, and during the Industrial Revolution men went to work away and they got separated from their wives and from their children for extended period of times and so they were considered a religious, undemesticated and Intrinsically dangerous to the family, because now they were gone and out of that come the cowboy ethos.
• 27:39
  Oscar Navarro: And so in the 70s, which you get is like this the real man embraces separation from the family as like the justified way of Darwinianism.
• 27:48
  Oscar Navarro: Instead of being a family man, cowboy culture promotes this idea of like the anti family man.
• 27:54
  Oscar Navarro: It's like your job is to go out and be manly and do manly things and then come home to a Domesticated way, and so the result of the real man because of that is like men have a physical force, men are Independent.
• 28:09
  Oscar Navarro: We get the phrase noble savage, that that's what it means to be a man.
• 28:13
  Oscar Navarro: They're untamed, they tell it like it is and you get bad examples today, like I hate to say it, but Andrew Tate, steve Crowder, mark Driscoll, charlie Kirk there's this idea that they are what men are and I just someone just sent me a clip of Charlie Kirk, mark Driscoll talking and I was so Disgusted about the way they were communicating Masculinity.
• 28:36
  Emeal Zwayne: It was shameful dare I say I'm not sure about Charlie Kirk.
• 28:40
  Emeal Zwayne: I know he's been in some respectable circles, but the other three guys I could tell you it's deeply concerning.
• 28:45
  Emeal Zwayne: Thanks, oscar, that was.
• 28:46
  Emeal Zwayne: That was really let me get you on this mark real quick.
• 28:49
  Emeal Zwayne: Part of what Oscar was saying I think was really articulated well by Piper.
• 28:53
  Emeal Zwayne: He said a famous cigarette billboard pictures of curly-headed, bronze faced, muscular macho with a cigarette hanging out of the side of his mouth.
• 29:00
  Emeal Zwayne: The sign says where a man belongs.
• 29:02
  Emeal Zwayne: That's a lie.
• 29:03
  Emeal Zwayne: Where a man belongs is at the bedside of his children, leading in devotional and prayer.
• 29:07
  Emeal Zwayne: Where a man belongs is leading his family to the house of God.
• 29:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Where a man belongs is up early and alone with God seeking vision and Direction for the family.
• 29:15
  Emeal Zwayne: What say you, mark?
• 29:16
  Mark Spence: I want to keep listening.
• 29:17
  Mark Spence: We can't get enough of that.
• 29:19
  Mark Spence: Oscar is 100% onto something here.
• 29:21
  Mark Spence: Right, we are being fed by the world of a new definition of what it means to be masculine, and and we need to be careful.
• 29:30
  Mark Spence: So we need to go back to a grassroots definition.
• 29:33
  Mark Spence: We need to go back to what the Bible has to say and, unashamedly, without reserves, without apology, start there and stay there.
• 29:42
  Mark Spence: Right, and we have.
• 29:45
  Mark Spence: I remember I was out witnessing in Huntington Beach and I began to explain something to a woman, and a woman had said you're mansplaining.
• 29:51
  Mark Spence: And everything within me wanted to say what is mansplaining?
• 29:55
  Mark Spence: And the moment she explained it, I wanted to say why are you woman-splaining?
• 29:59
  Mark Spence: You know to me, right?
• 30:01
  Mark Spence: So we, it says, if we can't have a conversation in gender politics, is Leading the charge here and we need to be careful.
• 30:09
  Mark Spence: Right when I had met with this young man named Ryan, who's dating my daughter, I told him to prepare for my daughter, you need to prepare yourself, and the whole adage of things where what are we looking for in a man?
• 30:21
  Mark Spence: Right, it is a man.
• 30:22
  Mark Spence: If you're gonna take care of my daughter, you need to be able to be the provider of her.
• 30:25
  Mark Spence: You need to be a protector of her and you need to be a prophet or a Priest to lead her.
• 30:30
  Mark Spence: Well, but I would love it if we could maybe just spend a moment here in defining what does it mean to be a biblical man, what does biblical masculinity look like, so that we can take inventory the people that are listening and say where do I need to Check off and what do I need to work out?
• 30:47
  Emeal Zwayne: That's good.
• 30:48
  Emeal Zwayne: No, it's exactly what I want us to do, right, let's start first with the fact that biblical distinctions between man and woman.
• 30:55
  Emeal Zwayne: So let's go back to the foundation.
• 30:57
  Emeal Zwayne: Like Mark said, genesis 1, 27 so God created man in his own image.
• 31:01
  Emeal Zwayne: In the image of God, he created him Male and female.
• 31:06
  Emeal Zwayne: He created them.
• 31:07
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, the world basically wants to blur those lines and they wanna say there's no male nor female, unless it comes down to something that they want.
• 31:16
  Emeal Zwayne: So it's like a woman has a right to talk about abortion.
• 31:19
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, we've talked this a how many times.
• 31:20
  Emeal Zwayne: But what is a woman?
• 31:21
  Emeal Zwayne: We don't know, right, I mean utter stupidity.
• 31:24
  Emeal Zwayne: But, ray, the Bible makes clear distinctions and this does not equate to inequality, it's just a difference of roles.
• 31:33
  Ray Comfort: Absolutely I love.
• 31:34
  Ray Comfort: Oscar said what did you use?
• 31:35
  Ray Comfort: The phrase cowboy culture?
• 31:37
  Ray Comfort: And it made me.
• 31:38
  Ray Comfort: I wanna share a bit of something anecdotal.
• 31:40
  Ray Comfort: John Wayne is the epitome of the iconic male in America.
• 31:46
  Ray Comfort: He has been, and I remember seeing a movie about John Wayne and this woman was lying on a rock and she was gonna shoot him because he killed her kid brother and so she shot him.
• 31:54
  Ray Comfort: He fell off his horse onto the ground and she walked up and kicked his body and suddenly he hits her in the back of the knee.
• 31:59
  Ray Comfort: She falls on the deck.
• 32:00
  Ray Comfort: She looks up at him and says how could I have missed?
• 32:04
  Ray Comfort: And then, in typical John Wayne fashion, he gets his big masculine hand, grabs blood from his shoulder where she shot him, swipes that blood across her jacket and said you didn't, he shot him.
• 32:16
  Ray Comfort: And John Wayne is tough.
• 32:18
  Ray Comfort: I mean he's the guy that's still got 200 arrows in his back when he's shooting Indians.
• 32:21
  Ray Comfort: But in real life, I mean that's Hollywood in real life.
• 32:24
  Ray Comfort: When John Wayne died of cancer, he called for a preacher to be by his bedside.
• 32:28
  Ray Comfort: So there's a Hollywood world and there's a real world, and that Hollywood world is what the world pushes forward, john Wayne.
• 32:35
  Ray Comfort: You never see him crying like Jesus cried.
• 32:37
  Ray Comfort: You never see him being gentle with a woman like James Bond is just typical masculinity shoot guys and conquer women.
• 32:44
  Ray Comfort: That's the whole image they have, and so we need to relook at what the Bible says about what a real man is.
• 32:50
  Ray Comfort: I love the way Jesus cleared the temple.
• 32:52
  Ray Comfort: You realize this was a carpenter with strong hands.
• 32:55
  Ray Comfort: You kind of think to yourself I don't know how many men were in the temple buying and selling, but they put this hey guys, this guy's tipping my tables over.
• 33:03
  Ray Comfort: There's only one of him and there's like a hundred of us.
• 33:05
  Ray Comfort: Let's beat him to death.
• 33:06
  Ray Comfort: But no, jesus was so strong and so manly, he just freaked them out.
• 33:12
  Ray Comfort: And I love that image of someone who picks the woman, talks to the woman well in gentleness and picks the woman out of the dirt who's been caught in the act of adultery and treats people with respect and weeps over Jerusalem.
• 33:24
  Ray Comfort: Weeps, takes children to himself, puts them on his knee.
• 33:27
  Ray Comfort: John Wayne didn't do that sort of thing.
• 33:29
  Emeal Zwayne: So we have to rethink what is a man biblically and that's our image that we should strive for, and I think that, oscar, you mentioned especially Andrew Tate a minute ago.
• 33:37
  Emeal Zwayne: I think this gravitation toward him and also by supposedly Christian men I don't mean to say that they're not genuinely Christian, but I think it speaks to the fact that there is a vacuum in our culture and so men are gravitating towards toxic guys like that.
• 33:54
  Emeal Zwayne: I cannot understand for the life of me how a man of God could use that guy as the example for manliness.
• 34:02
  Emeal Zwayne: This guy is a crass, godless, harsh, arrogant man.
• 34:09
  Oscar Navarro: I would say let me add to that real quick, not just use him.
• 34:12
  Oscar Navarro: But I don't understand how you would consume his content and not be disgusted.
• 34:17
  Oscar Navarro: I agree exactly.
• 34:19
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and so I think a good place for us to go is 1 Corinthians, 16, 13 to 14, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
• 34:31
  Emeal Zwayne: And how interesting this verse is often skipped when this is quoted.
• 34:34
  Emeal Zwayne: Verse 14, let all that you do be done in love.
• 34:38
  Emeal Zwayne: I wanna read you guys something here.
• 34:40
  Emeal Zwayne: Vodibhakum said something really interesting about the standard the world sets for what a true man is.
• 34:45
  Emeal Zwayne: The ball field, the bedroom and the billfold that's the world standard.
• 34:52
  Emeal Zwayne: The ball field hey, how are you in sports.
• 34:53
  Emeal Zwayne: The bedroom, yeah, you know how do you.
• 34:54
  Emeal Zwayne: And then the billfold how much money do you make?
• 34:57
  Emeal Zwayne: But I want you guys to listen to something that had me in tears this morning, and the interesting thing is is that this was written by a woman, gloria Furman.
• 35:07
  Oscar Navarro: Oh, she's so good, she is fantastic.
• 35:10
  Emeal Zwayne: What's her?
• 35:10
  Oscar Navarro: name.
• 35:11
  Ray Comfort: Gloria Furman For me.
• 35:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Gloria for me.
• 35:14
  Oscar Navarro: She's great though.
• 35:15
  Emeal Zwayne: Okay, listen to this guys, though, please.
• 35:17
  Emeal Zwayne: The masculinity I appreciate as a wife is a far greater value than wealth earning power.
• 35:23
  Emeal Zwayne: It's a masculinity that is unashamed of the gospel, which is the power of God.
• 35:28
  Emeal Zwayne: The unashamed masculinity I enjoy in my home leaves a legacy that is more enduring than prolific fertility.
• 35:34
  Emeal Zwayne: It's masculinity that fervently loves others from a heart that has been born again, born not of seed, which is perishable, but imperishable.
• 35:42
  Emeal Zwayne: True masculinity is reborn through the living and abiding word of God.
• 35:46
  Emeal Zwayne: The unashamed masculinity I love to follow in my home is far more impressive than macho pride.
• 35:51
  Emeal Zwayne: It's masculinity that is willing to take the painful shrapnel in the battle against his own sin, rather than run from sin and hide in the comfort of silence.
• 36:00
  Emeal Zwayne: It is a masculinity that willingly exposes its life to the iron sharpening iron of open and honest male accountability relationships.
• 36:08
  Emeal Zwayne: The unashamed masculinity that guards the hearts in my home puts away rash, cutting words that pierce like a sword.
• 36:15
  Emeal Zwayne: My husband's Christ honoring masculinity understands the power of words and he uses words to bring healing to me and our children.
• 36:24
  Emeal Zwayne: The unashamed masculinity I cherish in my home is such that fixes its eyes on Jesus and turns its eyes away from all the vain things of this world that hold a potent charm over other men.
• 36:34
  Emeal Zwayne: My husband's Christ honoring masculinity flees from promises whispered by a hiss Wow.
• 36:40
  Emeal Zwayne: The unashamed masculinity I need in my home is concerned that others find their delight in God.
• 36:46
  Emeal Zwayne: Nothing quite says I love you to me than when my husband is willing to humbly stand up to the things I pursue that obstruct my everlasting joy in God.
• 36:55
  Emeal Zwayne: His loving masculinity reassures me of Christ's atonement made on my behalf and of the privilege I have to boldly approach the throne of grace.
• 37:03
  Emeal Zwayne: Unashamed masculinity has less to do with how many horses a man owns or how fast he can run.
• 37:08
  Emeal Zwayne: Unashamed masculinity is about what a man does with the gospel.
• 37:11
  Emeal Zwayne: Where can you see this unashamed masculinity?
• 37:14
  Emeal Zwayne: You see it wherever a man has peered into the empty tomb and found new motivation to lay down his life, to spread the gospel in the soaks of Casablanca, into the office spaces in Dallas, into the cafes in Geneva, into the shanty towns of Mumbai, into the boroughs of Sao Paulo and into the universities of Toronto.
• 37:38
  Ray Comfort: Real men, shit tears.
• 37:40
  Oscar Navarro: Gloria Furman.
• 37:41
  Oscar Navarro: For anybody who's not read her book Glimpses of Grace I've read is really good.
• 37:45
  Oscar Navarro: And then my wife loves her book Mission Motherhood.
• 37:48
  Oscar Navarro: My wife claims it's one of the best books she's read Ray, she goes to the gospel.
• 37:53
  Oscar Navarro: Yes.
• 37:54
  Emeal Zwayne: I know that got your heart stirred up Suddenly.
• 37:56
  Ray Comfort: I'm listening.
• 37:58
  Emeal Zwayne: But right now, that's the part that's often forgotten.
• 38:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Because that's the arena where real courage and manliness is needed.
• 38:06
  Ray Comfort: Absolutely.
• 38:06
  Ray Comfort: The righteous are as bold as a lion and we need to be bold and we need to be like I, like the King James quit yourselves like men.
• 38:14
  Ray Comfort: I don't know what that means, but it sounds really good.
• 38:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I mean, it's translated the.
• 38:19
  Ray Comfort: English standard as act like men.
• 38:22
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and Mark all those attributes there.
• 38:25
  Emeal Zwayne: Be watchful.
• 38:26
  Emeal Zwayne: A man is watchful over his affairs, over his family, over his life, over his purity.
• 38:33
  Emeal Zwayne: Stand firm in the faith.
• 38:35
  Emeal Zwayne: He's rooted and grounded in Christ and in the truth and isn't blown away by every wind that comes his way.
• 38:41
  Emeal Zwayne: He's strong.
• 38:42
  Emeal Zwayne: He does everything with love.
• 38:45
  Mark Spence: Everything with love.
• 38:46
  Mark Spence: Oh boy, we fall short on that.
• 38:47
  Mark Spence: But the beautiful thing that is a part of that is that a true man sees that, confesses that, repents of that and moves forward.
• 38:52
  Mark Spence: Remember, as a parent, it's not my job to raise Christian children, but to model what a Christian is for my children, and especially my sons.
• 39:00
  Mark Spence: I want to model what it looks like to be a godly man, yeah, where we are continually forgetting those things which are behind and we press onwards, we push upwards and we leave the results to God.
• 39:12
  Mark Spence: I kind of accumulated a quick little list here on what it means to be a man, what it looks like to be a man.
• 39:17
  Mark Spence: What is?
• 39:17
  Mark Spence: He controls his appetites, hmm, right, and what does that mean?
• 39:21
  Mark Spence: He controls his, his sex drive.
• 39:23
  Mark Spence: He doesn't put himself in a position where he tempts the enemy to tempt him.
• 39:26
  Mark Spence: He also controls his eating right.
• 39:29
  Mark Spence: Is he eating to live or is he living to eat?
• 39:32
  Mark Spence: We need to be simple in our approach to these sort of things, because when the enemy comes knocking in either one of those areas when our eyes are focused on the Lord, we will not be given over to the left or the right, and we have accountability that is attached to that.
• 39:44
  Mark Spence: Next is he protects his family.
• 39:46
  Mark Spence: We talk about that, you know.
• 39:47
  Mark Spence: Every single day I watch a video from a guy named John Korea on active self-protection on YouTube and he teaches you kind of the ends of the ounce on how to protect yourself or to be on the lookout when a situation arises.
• 39:58
  Mark Spence: That just seems a rye right.
• 40:01
  Mark Spence: So we need to protect our family from physical harm and from wrong thinking.
• 40:05
  Mark Spence: Yeah you know, when we recognize that, or for watching a movie, don't be afraid to maybe just pause that movie.
• 40:10
  Mark Spence: And to Oscar, you said that you do this with your kids.
• 40:12
  Mark Spence: I think it's absolutely beautiful.
• 40:13
  Mark Spence: What are we seeing that's off here?
• 40:15
  Mark Spence: What logical fallacy is employed here?
• 40:17
  Mark Spence: What is going on?
• 40:18
  Mark Spence: Just pause.
• 40:19
  Mark Spence: Yeah, I have a friend who every time he's watching a movie, there's a little sign underneath this television that says the five-minute rule is an effect Meaning if there is a blasphemy that I apply that that happens inside the movie.
• 40:31
  Mark Spence: He pauses the movie for five minutes and then they fellowship and they talk.
• 40:35
  Mark Spence: Hmm, it may take 12 days to get through that Right, because they should just turn the movie off.
• 40:41
  Mark Spence: Yeah right, I mean I can't, I can't force my thing on him, but that's what he does and that's what he thinks works for his, his family.
• 40:47
  Mark Spence: We need to provide for our family Financially and we need to provide for them spiritually, and a godly man is going to do that.
• 40:53
  Mark Spence: And that's not to say, obviously, that a woman cannot bring money into the house, that she can't be a doctor or even a mechanic.
• 41:00
  Mark Spence: You know that we may think that's ultimately typically a male Responsibility, but if you're gonna provide for your family, especially in today's day and age, you're gonna try to figure out ways to diversify your income to be able to have maybe even side hustles, in order to Not give your kids better than the way you had it, but to demonstrate to your kids how to be a better giver in today's society.
• 41:21
  Mark Spence: Hmm, and then you need to be able to lead your family.
• 41:23
  Mark Spence: You need to lead your family.
• 41:24
  Mark Spence: In order to lead your family, you need to study your family.
• 41:26
  Mark Spence: These are individual people, yeah, and you need to lead them with family devotions.
• 41:30
  Mark Spence: And even if the kids will not be a part of that, you're there with your wife, and if your wife won't be a part of that, you are by yourself inside the living room, leading in devotion as well as you possibly can.
• 41:40
  Mark Spence: And then, finally, is having humility before god.
• 41:43
  Mark Spence: You recognize who you are Inside, of being saved by grace.
• 41:47
  Mark Spence: There's a dependence upon god and there's an acknowledgement of imperfection.
• 41:51
  Mark Spence: Without god, I can't do it, but with god I can do all things and I think that's a pretty good example of what it means to be a Biblical male.
• 41:59
  Oscar Navarro: I started out by mentioning that I've read a handful of books on on the subject and I've read a few that claim to be Christian but ultimately promoted a form of toxic masculinity.
• 42:07
  Oscar Navarro: I've read a few books, read one book specifically that I knew I was going to disagree with.
• 42:11
  Oscar Navarro: It was written from what we would call the left side and it emasculated masculinity.
• 42:15
  Oscar Navarro: I read it because I wanted to to see what they were saying, and after about three or four books I was discouraged because I just couldn't find anything out there that I felt like.
• 42:23
  Oscar Navarro: I felt like there was just a missing space for True biblical masculinity.
• 42:26
  Oscar Navarro: And then I found a book by brant hanson called the men we need and I cannot this enough For all guys to read, and even ladies, especially if you're single, so that you know what to look for in a man.
• 42:41
  Oscar Navarro: And essentially he calls men keepers of the garden and he distills it down to five things.
• 42:47
  Oscar Navarro: What does it mean to be biblical masculinity?
• 42:49
  Oscar Navarro: For sakes in?
• 42:50
  Oscar Navarro: Protect the vulnerable, which you talked about.
• 42:53
  Oscar Navarro: Be ambitious about right things, make women and children feel safe, not threatened he has a whole chapter dedicated that.
• 43:02
  Oscar Navarro: One's really good and then take responsibility for your own spiritual life.
• 43:06
  Oscar Navarro: Those are the five areas in which he says biblical masculinity Transcends all cultures.
• 43:12
  Oscar Navarro: If you do these five things, you are adhering to what biblical masculinity has for you.
• 43:17
  Oscar Navarro: That's really good.
• 43:18
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and, and I think as well, we also have to be careful too that we don't adopt the world's total Definition of things and that we know, as Christians, right, anything that we stand up for, like if we're standing up for heterosexuality as scripture teaches it, or we're standing up for life in the womb, the world immediately calls that hate speech.
• 43:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, you're a hater.
• 43:39
  Emeal Zwayne: And I think, too, we do have to be careful, because sometimes the world takes the term Toxic masculinity and they they apply it to everything you know.
• 43:49
  Emeal Zwayne: And so we have to, as as believers, be able to discern between that and recognize they may call it that, but that it's not toxic because it aligns with scripture, you know, but right, I think a big hallmark of true biblical masculinity is someone who's a servant leader.
• 44:04
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, leadership is huge.
• 44:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Obviously it was a mandate from the very beginning, wasn't a part of the fall, as some Egalitarians will try to tell us.
• 44:11
  Emeal Zwayne: But from the beginning God gave man dominion.
• 44:13
  Emeal Zwayne: He appointed him to name all the animals later.
• 44:15
  Emeal Zwayne: It's referenced in the New Testament that man was created first, and so that there is a headship given there.
• 44:21
  Emeal Zwayne: But a servant leader is what's key.
• 44:25
  Ray Comfort: And that's so.
• 44:25
  Ray Comfort: It's almost toxic to the world for someone to be like that.
• 44:28
  Ray Comfort: For back to John Lano, arnold Swartz, nigger or James Bond To be a foot washer.
• 44:33
  Ray Comfort: And Jesus washed his disciples feet and he said I've seen an example, and Humility and masculinity should go hand in hand, obviously if you're a Christian yeah, and you know we talked about mark your reference.
• 44:45
  Emeal Zwayne: You need to be a prophet, a priest.
• 44:47
  Emeal Zwayne: You know leadership in your home, leadership Influence.
• 44:49
  Emeal Zwayne: A man is an influencer.
• 44:51
  Emeal Zwayne: He impacts his, his wife, his children, society, those around him.
• 44:54
  Emeal Zwayne: He's a provider, he's a protector, which you touched on.
• 44:57
  Emeal Zwayne: Love and sacrifice, servant hood, faithfulness, diligence, all these things.
• 45:01
  Emeal Zwayne: If you look at the whole milieu of scripture, that's part and parcel with with what biblical manhood is, and so I think it's important for us to remember those key things and recognize that it's not on the basis of what culture thinks or what we feel, but man.
• 45:18
  Emeal Zwayne: It's walking like Jesus, it's living like the Savior, and my encouragement to men is read 1st Corinthians 13, the fruit of love, and ask yourself Do I bear that in my life?
• 45:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, are you gonna say something?
• 45:31
  Ray Comfort: right, no, no, no, it was my masculine authority grabbing the microphone.
• 45:37
  Emeal Zwayne: This is something that p Andrew Sandlin said well first.
• 45:41
  Emeal Zwayne: First, robert Lewis said what is a real man?
• 45:45
  Emeal Zwayne: A real man is one who rejects passivity, accepts responsibility, leads courageously and accepts the greater reward, god's reward.
• 45:52
  Emeal Zwayne: This manhood vision desperately needs to be proclaimed throughout our society.
• 45:56
  Emeal Zwayne: And then p Andrew Sandlin said one of the most tragic cultural shifts of the us is in the last quarter century Is a loss of rugged manliness.
• 46:03
  Emeal Zwayne: In my experience, most young men, including young christian men, suffer from laziness, lack of ambition, obsession with cheap entertainment, avoid of chivalry or protection of women and a whiny, self-centered, non-risk taking.
• 46:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, I love that.
• 46:16
  Emeal Zwayne: That defines, I think, our culture well, and I just think.
• 46:20
  Emeal Zwayne: I think we need to step back, reexamine and say lord, where are we?
• 46:25
  Emeal Zwayne: What are we doing as men?
• 46:26
  Emeal Zwayne: Are we living According to the design you've laid out?
• 46:30
  Oscar Navarro: I think it's valuable to reference the gospel here, and as I think through how to do that, I think back to Moses, and Moses ultimately fell short of being a man.
• 46:39
  Oscar Navarro: And I think of Samson Samson one of the strongest guys, but he was weak in his eyes.
• 46:43
  Oscar Navarro: He fell short of being a man.
• 46:44
  Oscar Navarro: I think of David.
• 46:45
  Oscar Navarro: David was an incredible leader and yet he at times fell short of being a man.
• 46:51
  Oscar Navarro: And the reality is that we all me included at times fall short of being a biblical man.
• 46:58
  Oscar Navarro: I fall short at any time.
• 46:59
  Oscar Navarro: I don't have a gentleness towards the people around me who are weaker than me.
• 47:03
  Oscar Navarro: I fall short any time.
• 47:04
  Oscar Navarro: I advocate responsibility and we all ultimately fall short.
• 47:09
  Oscar Navarro: But there is one who'd never fell short of being a man and that was Jesus.
• 47:13
  Oscar Navarro: And the beautiful thing about him for the guys listening out there who might be convicted that you've fallen short of biblical manhood the beautiful thing is that he ultimately does not fall short and he offers up his life for us as a sacrifice so that we can be free from all of the tempting ways that we want to abdicate our manhood.
• 47:33
  Oscar Navarro: We can be free from that and live a life in Christ to be more like him, so that we become the men that the women and children and world around us need to be.
• 47:46
  Oscar Navarro: That happens only through the blood of Jesus.
• 47:50
  Emeal Zwayne: Amen, amen, so well put.
• 47:51
  Emeal Zwayne: And friends, let me finish on this note.
• 47:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Many of you who've been listening know that I wrote a book called Fight Like a man, a biblical battle plan for personal purity.
• 47:58
  Emeal Zwayne: And then there I said, real men demonstrate character, courage, commitment, conviction, devotion, valor and loyalty and, what's more, they're willing to sacrifice for the sake of others and for causes that are greater than themselves.
• 48:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Most importantly, real men are willing to fight for what's right and they do so in the energy and spirit of those indispensable attributes I highlighted.
• 48:18
  Emeal Zwayne: And so, men listening to me, the biggest problem today that is destroying men is the issue of pornography.
• 48:25
  Emeal Zwayne: And if you really want to be a real man, repent of this sin, because it's destroying you, it's destroying your family, it's destroying the glory of God, it's destroying the testimony of the gospel.
• 48:37
  Emeal Zwayne: There's so many resources out there to help you, especially God's grace, so I hope you take that challenge, brothers, all right, friends, that's the end man seriously.
• 48:47
  Emeal Zwayne: We could have gone a couple hours on this.
• 48:49
  Emeal Zwayne: Hopefully we kind of scratched the surface, at least a little bit.
• 48:53
  Ray Comfort: Hopefully a real man we would have, but no, we are not the men who are real Yeehaw.
• 48:59
  Emeal Zwayne: All right friends.
• 49:00
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you for joining us.
• 49:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Make sure to check out everything that we have at LivingWaterscom.
• 49:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget the Curved Illusion Tracks.
• 49:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget the mugs, the podcast mugs, living Waters Podcast Mugs and the evidence study Bible.
• 49:11
  Emeal Zwayne: Remember to send us your thoughts and questions to podcastatlivingwaterscom.
• 49:15
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you for joining us.
• 49:17
  Emeal Zwayne: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast, where still we have no idea what we're doing.
• 49:27
  Ray Comfort: We've got a new take on it.
• 49:28
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, we've got a new take.
• 49:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, I thought we were going to talk to Oscar about all you heard.
• 49:31
  Ray Comfort: I green-lit it.
• 49:33
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, I green-lit it.
• 49:34
  Ray Comfort: Okay, friends, Save it for next time Okay we'll do it next time.
• 49:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, stay tuned for the next episode, for the new tagline.