Latest / LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships / #64: How to Love Living with Your Adult Child | A Conversation with Julie Lythcott-Haims

Transcript

#64: How to Love Living with Your Adult Child | A Conversation with Julie Lythcott-Haims · LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Back in 2015, I picked up a book that deeply resonated with me.
0:05
SPEAKER_01: As a mother raising two children, I knew how easy it would be to slide into the role of an overprotective mama bear, wanting to keep her baby safe from the world.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: But I also understood how important it was to raise resilient, confident, and independent adults who could thrive on their own.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: So when I read How to Raise an Adult, it brought to light what the overprotective style of helicopter parenting was doing to young adults.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't help but be concerned.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: In my gut, I knew this parenting style was going to create a problem down the road.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Well-intentioned parents were unknowingly undermining their kids because the cultural mindset of a good parent back then meant doing everything for them.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: The book became a New York Times bestseller, and the author's TED Talk, How to Raise Successful Kids Without Overparenting, has been viewed over 8.2 million times since its release.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: So you can only imagine how excited I am to be speaking with Julie Lithcott Haymes on launch today.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: In addition to How to Raise an Adult, Julie also wrote Your Turn, How to Be an Adult, and her powerful memoir, Real American.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Julie's work spans writing, speaking, teaching, mentoring, and activism.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: This interview is deeply personal.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: It's thought-provoking and inspiring.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, it felt more like having coffee with a friend, exchanging ideas, talking about the real issues that parents are facing with their adult kids living at home, and both of us wanting the same thing to help you navigate this stage, find joy in it, while raising them to be capable, responsible, and functioning adults who'll be okay in this world without us.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoy this conversation with Julie Lithcott Haymes.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: And remember to share it with a friend who needs to hear it.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm Sherry Jonas, and this is Launch.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Sherry.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining me on Launch.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: It's an honor to be here.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: At the risk of sounding like a fangirl, full transparency.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: I am genuinely thrilled to be speaking with you today.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
2:17
SPEAKER_02: It's uh uh it's always a joy to come across someone who has resonated with my work as deeply and completely as you have.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: So I really am grateful.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: I tell you, I'm pretty sure that your New York Times bestseller, How to Raise an Adult, was the first book I ever read on this topic.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: And it really resonated with me because I was I was concerned about the impact of helicopter parenting on kids.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: We weren't raised that way, and I think we turned out okay.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: That's a big statement you're making, but I I know where you're going.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: We weren't raised that way, and we turned out okay.
2:59
SPEAKER_02: I think there were plenty of things wrong with how we were raised, but the upside of it was we sure did gain a lot of independence and a lot of skills.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: So here we are, 11 years later, just about from that book, facing a new set of challenges that may very well be an extension or an outcome of that exact issue of overparenting.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: So I am really looking forward to having this conversation with you.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: How to raise an adult was a wake-up call for parents that overmanaging their kids' lives was actually undermining their resilience, confidence, and independence, or agency, if you will, in the pursuit, of course, to get them into top-tier schools.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: But now we're facing a new problem, practically an epidemic.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Many young adults are back home because COVID, the economy, mental health.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: And parents are wondering what do I do with them?
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Haven't I done enough already?
4:06
SPEAKER_01: I th I thought you were on your way.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: So they're really unsure what to do now.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: And what I'm seeing are parents who are either still enabling this helplessness, or they've stepped back so far that they're they're not parenting altogether.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: And neither extreme is very good.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: So, topic for today, what I want to talk to you about is what effective parenting looks like when an adult child is living at home, and how we can turn this challenging season, if you will, into a wonderful opportunity rather than a crisis.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: One con yeah, one concept from how to raise an adult that really spoke to me as a parent back then was self-efficacy from the work of Albert Bandura, who I remember studying back during my undergrad years in psychology.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: So, for our listener who may not be so familiar with the term, can you explain what self-efficacy is, why it matters so much for a young adult, and perhaps how parents can help build it?
5:18
SPEAKER_02: Share a thing.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: Well, you're the one who studied psychology, so correct me if any of what I say is about to be wrong.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm a I'm originally a lawyer, turned university dean, and I was seeing um a helplessness in some of my students and a rising uh mental health crisis.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: And logic for me put two and two together and said something, something is they're overly reliant on parents, parents are overly involved in the college years, the students have poor mental health and fewer skills.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if there's a psychological underpinning to this, and that's what took me to Bandora's work.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: And I was delighted to see in his research the naming and labeling, elucidation of this concept of self-efficacy, uh, which I understand to be, you know, the the sense of our own, the the innate sense of our own existence coming um coming from evidence that we can do things.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: So when our psyche sees, hey, I set a goal and made it happen, or I set myself to do a task and I did the task, I see the evidence of my own existence, the cause and effect.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: I did something, therefore I exist.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: It's sort of the psychological equivalent of Rene Descartes, the French philosopher who said, I think, therefore I am, you know, I am a rational thinking being, therefore I exist.
6:46
SPEAKER_02: Bandora's lesson to us through self-efficacy is I do things, therefore I am.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: And it turns out to be a bedrock of our psychological wellness.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: So I began asking, is this parenting style undermining self-efficacy?
7:04
SPEAKER_02: Is the overhelp, despite how lovingly intended it is, despite how useful parents can be, despite the fact that parents no more have a better network, are more skilled, can handle things.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
7:16
SPEAKER_02: You know, could there be harm in parents handling too much?
7:20
SPEAKER_02: And the answer is yes, because of Bandora's work and self-efficacy, you know, we know that you think you're helping, but you're actually depriving a person of laying the foundation for their own innate knowledge that they are a capable, able human being.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Nailed it.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: So here we are.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Parents are in this situation, complaining, worried, that their adult child now living at home has no structure, no routine, sleeps until noon, won't take on any responsibilities outside the house, or even contribute inside with like household chores.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: It's as if they've returned home and have quietly quit trying to be an adult because how difficult things are.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: From your perspective, as someone who has researched this generation, actually, you wrote a book for them called Your Turn, How to Be an Adult.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: What's actually happening here?
8:24
SPEAKER_02: I think in another 20 years, enough researchers will have looked at these phenomena and figured out what has actually happened.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: But as I watch it unfold from the sidelines, I have a lot of thoughts about the various factors.
8:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I should pause and say, I am a mom.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: I have a 26-year-old son and a 24-year-old daughter.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: My 26-year-old son has been with us since March 17th, 2020, the pandemic return date.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: Never left home, has been with us ever since.
8:57
SPEAKER_02: And my little one came home from college but went back and has graduated college in another state, went out into a different country.
9:06
SPEAKER_02: So my little one is very well launched in that sense of the term.
9:11
SPEAKER_02: My big one is very much at home.
9:13
SPEAKER_02: But at 26, I will say he, I am confident that he is uh a thriving adult who happens to live at home.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: So I think the living at home piece isn't the inherently a problem.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: It's how do you behave and how do they behave in that home.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: Because you can have a whole bunch of adults living together who happen to be related.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: You know, it doesn't mean anybody is inherently irresponsible.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: It's all a question of who's doing what and what the expectations are.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: So um, I love your phrase, it's as if they've quietly quit.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: And when I hear that, two things instantly come to mind.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Someone's got a mental health crisis because we humans, if we're well, we'd like to do things.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: We like to use our bodies, use our hands, use our brains, solve problems, create things.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and that's a function of wellness.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, when we're depressed, we quite literally are um slowed to a point of immobility as opposed to activated toward mobility and making things happen.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: So my first thought is, oh my gosh, what's wrong with that person in a compassionate sense?
10:25
SPEAKER_02: Like, what has gone so wrong such that they don't seem to have any motivation, either inside the home or outside the home, to make anything of their lives.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: I have compassion for that.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: And I and I wonder, is there a mental health issue?
10:39
SPEAKER_02: I also find myself saying, what is up with those parents?
10:43
SPEAKER_02: Why are they letting somebody live in their home and not lift a finger?
10:49
SPEAKER_02: Now, again, if the person is unwell, if the person has a physical illness, a mental illness, you extend a lot of compassion, you expect less, but you might still expect some things, you know?
10:59
SPEAKER_02: And so what is up with the parents that they're allowing this?
11:03
SPEAKER_02: Why have, you know, when that kid was three, you know, and they were teaching them how to go to the bathroom, right?
11:10
SPEAKER_02: Did they just wipe their kids' butt forever?
11:12
SPEAKER_02: Or did they say, no, buddy, you got to learn how to do this?
11:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm gonna teach you how, and then you're gonna do it.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: You're responsible.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: Don't you come downstairs with that button out wiped?
11:19
SPEAKER_02: Like, it's the same thing.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: They have to be responsible for themselves.
11:23
SPEAKER_02: They have to contribute to um their upkeep, you know, their needs.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: They need to be uh contributing to the work around the house, buying groceries, cleaning up, doing the dishes, doing the laundry, doing the garbage, uh, you know, like fixing things around the house, just like we do.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: Like we we move from doing everything for our infants and toddlers to teaching our younger children to do more and more to contribute and to learn more skills.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: At some point, we hope they've learned all the stuff because we'll be dead one day.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: And we hope our offspring can kind of take it over, right?
11:56
SPEAKER_02: Right.
11:56
SPEAKER_02: And so, with that as like the frame, the long-term thing, like you're doing your kid no favors if you're allowing them to sleep till noon, not do any chores, you're not giving them any responsibilities.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: They're not kind of equals in the house.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: And um, and again, if they've got a mental health condition, if they're depressed, if if something is really wrong, like that should be the focus.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: Get treatment, get them therapy, get them meds, get family therapy if you need it.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: But the goal is like we can all live together, but we will all pitch in.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: It takes all hands on deck to make this house work.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: And it's not fair for one person or two people uh to be the ones to do all of the cooking and cleaning and providing and bill paying and other people just along for the ride, like they're guests on a cruise ship.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, no, you know, we are all, it's more like you're on a very nimble lithe sailboat that is trying to make a round-the-world trip and everybody's got a job.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: And if everybody doesn't do their job, this sailboat is not is gonna, you know, not make it.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, and um, and the beautiful thing is when you invite your young adults, your adult children, to the task of contributing, not in an authoritarian way.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: My house, my rules, get off your ass and do this or that, but rather, hey, let's talk about the work that is needed to make this household run.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: Let's name the various tasks.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: I bet there's so many when we contribute and make a list together.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna have, you know, 45 things on this list.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: And let's allocate the task.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: None of us should be doing the stuff we hate if we can, if somebody like in my family, I love the dishes.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: I hate the laundry.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: I don't do a shred of laundry.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: My partner, Dan, doesn't do a shred of dishes.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: And we both feel we got the better end of the stick.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: And so, like, chores don't have to be hell, right?
13:42
SPEAKER_02: Allocate chores in a way that uh, you know, lets people do the things they hate the least.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but the expectation is there that we'll all contribute.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, and let's figure out how we're all going to contribute and feel good about our contributions.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, you touched on an important point, mental health.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: But it's sort of a vicious circle or cycle.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, when parents say, you know, my my adult is suffering from depression, and I respond with, I would too, if I was sitting in my room 24-7, no sunlight, no activity, poor diet, I think I would be depressed also.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: And if it's clinical depression, then they should be seeing a doctor be taking medication, self-care.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: But parents are, no matter what they're saying or trying, they are meeting with such resistance or complete shutdown, they're being told, I'm an adult, you can't tell me what to do, although they're not acting like an adult.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: And so they're really in this unhealthy dynamic with their kids, and they really are at an impasse.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: And I I just I want to mention something you you were just touching on that I read this in an article where you said uh we're mammals.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: And our job as mammal parents is to ensure that our young will survive and thrive without us.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: So now these parents are older, right?
15:13
SPEAKER_01: They they're thinking about retirement, but their kids are home and they're not doing anything.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: So they're facing this harsh reality that their adult children are not prepared at all for that.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: And they're deeply concerned.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: The problem is they're these parents themselves are overwhelmed with guilt now that they have failed them.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: They're realizing that they might have let too much go for too long.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: Never mind the the the college and univers the college years, that here they are, they let them come home, of course, during COVID, and now things just have gotten stuck.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: So they're dealing with the guilt, and now they're dealing with fear because this whole, you know, uh the whole mental health crisis.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: So they're afraid to push them too hard.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: What do you say to a parent who's carrying all this emotional weight?
16:06
SPEAKER_01: They they really do want to help, but their emotions are skewing their judgment.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: They they almost can't get past feeling so guilty or so fearful that they can't even logically realize and deduce what you're just saying.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: Of course, they should have their young adults should be contributing.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: It only makes sense.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: And yet somehow they're they're buckling under their emotions of fear and guilt.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: And and layering it with they've lost their confidence.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: These parents who raise them this far along have taught them how to speak and walk and talk and eat.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Now they're terrified of triggering their child's anxiety, of worsening their depression, or causing an emotional meltdown in their house.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: Literally, literally, Julie, walking on eggshells in their own homes.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: I want to help parents step back for a second and say, you know, if you've lost your self-confidence, you've got to find yourself again here.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't lead them, then nothing is ever going to change.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: And you will have a 40, 50 year old living in your home and you won't be retiring.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of these, sadly, there's this whole, you know, group of kids called neat online.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: You can find them on Reddit, and they're just like they're very content being left alone to their own devices and waiting for their parents to just leave them the house or something.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: I want to shake these parents.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I love them, but I want to shake them and say, What happened?
17:35
SPEAKER_01: Where'd your self-confidence go?
17:37
SPEAKER_01: Who's running the show?
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Or that sailboat, as you put it.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: So nice.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: You know, and I got the sailboat analogy from a parent I interviewed from my next book, The Bonus Years, the Guide for Parents and Adult Children Living Together, it'll be out in 2027.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: But uh, she described her very well-functioning multi-generational family as that sailboat.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: And I really, I really like the image.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, uh, so yeah.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh look, here's how I see it.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: Um people who raised the millennials and Gen Z, myself included, um, were part of a societal shift that saw good parenting as doing everything for your child.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: You were praised, you were judged uh for how much you did or didn't do for your child.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: So your child showing up for, you know, everything your child did, everything your child needed, was a mark of good parenting.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: It is how the parenting posse judged you for whether you, you know, were good enough or not.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, that led to us overhelping and overdoing it.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: But we thought that was the measure of good parenting.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: So now we find ourselves kind of ready to lay that job down.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: And as we age and move toward retirement and need to look after our own finances and physical needs and so on, we're a little bewildered that these young that we're so close to and have done so much for still seem less capable.
19:09
SPEAKER_02: We're not appreciating the one-to-one correlation between all that we did and all that they therefore can't do or don't feel expected to do because we never set up that expectation.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: So we do feel a lot of guilt and we are afraid because we can see the big wall coming, you know, um, switching metaphors from a sailboat to more like a car about to hit a brick wall.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, and so what do we do about it?
19:32
SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, coaches, um, consultants like you, and you, I think are very frank with parents about like, let's talk about your feelings and what's going on and why are you so afraid of your own kids' feelings?
19:47
SPEAKER_02: And uh you're doing everything to make sure they don't have a tough time, uh, digging a further hole for yourself.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, you think it's loving to make sure they don't ever have a tough feeling, but you're actually undermining their ability to cope with tough feelings.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: So helping parents get really right within themselves about their own needs, their own feelings, their guilt, their fears, you know, it's it's it's therapy for the parents, number one, to help them understand, okay, all you can control is yourself.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: And so how can you get more in charge of yourself?
20:23
SPEAKER_02: What is it that you want to see happen in this house?
20:25
SPEAKER_02: What are the things that are non-negotiable for you?
20:28
SPEAKER_02: Why are you know, let's move you from afraid to talk to your child about that to how can you speak of it in a way that's not aggressive, not angry, not whiny, but just clear.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: How can I help you find your voice so you can say, you know, all right, in exchange for living here, we have some requirements.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: We love you.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: This isn't about lack of love, it's about really mutual respect.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, I want to feel respected in my home.
20:54
SPEAKER_02: And you want respect?
20:55
SPEAKER_02: I want respect.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: And here are some of the things that really matter to me that I need to see happen in order for us to continue living together, you know.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: And what are some of the things you need in order to feel good about being here?
21:06
SPEAKER_02: Like this should be a place where we can all feel loved and mutually supported and we can support each other and we can all thrive.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but it's a two-way street.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: And right now I don't see you, you know, holding up your end of the bargain.
21:19
SPEAKER_02: You know, for a parent to be able to say that in a loving way, with with, you know, it to do it without all of the emotional, you know, I'm waving my hand up and down.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: In case I'm not on video right now, but like, you know, without all the uh drama feelings, drama, we have to have a place, a safe place, a safe person with whom we can talk all of our stuff through so that then we can take that deep breath and go out and like have that conversation with our kid and then come back and get some more, some more coaching and guidance.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, like we need help, is my point.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: We need help.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: It is hard.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: It's not something you're just supposed to know how to do.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: Things have things have gotten, have gone awry, and we need some professional.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Help and kind of, you know, restabilizing things.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: It's perpetuating itself.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: They don't feel good because the kid isn't doing well.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, there's no respect in home in the home.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: These parents are fully respected at work.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: And then they come home and their door's slamming and no one's listening to them and the house is a mess.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: And it's a very uh upsetting situation because you've lost, you know, you don't really understand how this happened.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: This child that you've loved unconditionally and done so much for, and now it's almost turned on you.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: So here's what I think happens.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: When the adult child comes back home, came back home, the parent-child dynamic had uh has changed.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: It actually, in some instances, it returns back to where it was before, where there's the coddling, right?
22:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm running to give you, get you doing your meals, I'm doing your laundry, doing everything for you.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Or the pendulum has gone the other way, and they're leaving them alone, alone in their rooms, literally, I said earlier, to their own devices.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: And when I say devices, you know I mean the gaming and the screen time.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: And hoping, fingers crossed, they're gonna figure it out one day.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: But adult children, and here's what I am trying to impart on parents, they still need parenting.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: They just need a different kind of parenting, not controlling or rescuing, because clearly that didn't work, but leadership, structure, expectations, and even consequences.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: Because life is about consequences.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, what can I what can I tell them to do if they're an adult?
23:43
SPEAKER_01: They know they're living in your home.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Of course, there can be consequences, and consequences can be positive or negative.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: So parents have to get back to leading, leading with confidence.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: But these are uncharted waters.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: They really have no idea what even an adult-to-adult healthy relationship looks like with this young adult.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: You're living with a young adult, and I'm I'm sure a lot of parents right now love knowing that, that you have your 26-year-old, but your 26-year-old is functioning.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: He's adulting, he's contributing.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: So, what does that look like?
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Bring for the parent who has no idea what it's like to live with an adult child that is contributing.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Tell us what an adult-to-adult relationship looks like living under the same roof.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for that invitation.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to give you a few examples.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: I want to be clear that my son gives me permission to talk about this.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: It's important.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: As parents, that's one of the ways in which our boundaries can bleed and we don't know where we end and they begin.
24:44
SPEAKER_02: And it's, you know, we really shouldn't talk about another human being in any degree of specificity without their permission.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's as a matter of respect.
24:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, when Sawyer came home in March of 2020, he was 20 and uh just had a significant mental health crisis um resulting in some intensive outpatient work and uh graduated from that into a pandemic.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: And so he came to us just beginning to heal from significant uh you know mental health crisis and didn't want to get much help.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: And it was the pandemic, we weren't able to go anywhere.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: But in the ensuing months, I kept saying, you know, I think it's important for you to get back into therapy.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: And he's like, I'm not ready, I'm not ready.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: And I just kept nudging around the edges.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, whenever I saw a glimpse of his, you know, um, of his, you know, spirit in there, I would say, you know, I think it's, you know, I think it's time.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: I just kept at it and I said, I can if you'd like, if you'd like my help, I will help you find someone.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: And that's a respectful way to ask somebody.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: Instead of you need to find someone or I'm gonna find you someone, you make it a conversation.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: Would you like my help in finding a therapist?
26:04
SPEAKER_02: And that gives them some agency or self-efficacy.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: They make the choice.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, Sawyer started to get much better through months and months and months of, you know, weekly therapy or even twice a week.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: And um, and I remember when he was 21, because I still was of this mindset that we will have failed if our 20, you know, if our adult child is home, I said to his dad, my partner Dan, if he's still with us at 25, we'll have failed.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: And and then, you know, here we are, he's 26, he'll be 27 this summer.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: And I've shifted my mindset, but that's partially because Sawyer has really grown up.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: And so he went from being quite an unwell, dependent child to working through his issues with our curiosity, with our support, with our love, but with us getting stronger in our own voice around creating expectations about how he would conduct himself in our home.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: And we all went to family therapy to learn how to have those tough conversations because we were walking on eggshells.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: He has a very, very messy room, a function of his ADHD, and we just couldn't figure out how to talk to him about it.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: And he, you know, would really get quite upset when we did.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: Like he couldn't handle it.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: We couldn't handle him not handling it.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: And so we were immobilized and yet frustrated.
27:19
SPEAKER_02: And a therapist helped us figure, you know, helped us have those conversations in each other's presence.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, Sawyer is somebody who worries with his neurodivergence.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: He worries, I'm not sure I'm gonna make it in the world.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: And he's brilliant, Sherry.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: He's brilliant off the charts, testing and science and you know, all these things.
27:40
SPEAKER_02: And like, how could you not make it?
27:42
SPEAKER_02: We took this old mindset, of course you're gonna make it, you're brilliant.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: And we weren't listening to him saying, I'm desperately worried about my ability to make it.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: And we finally took that seriously.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: Like, let's talk about what you mean.
27:52
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm worried I won't ever get groceries for myself.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: How does a person feel that?
27:57
SPEAKER_02: I don't relate to that at all, but my son, whom I trust and love, is saying that.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: And so instead of dismissing it, telling him he's wrong or laughing, we said, Okay, son, that sounds really scary.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: If I felt that way, I think I would be scared.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: What are we gonna do about this?
28:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think it's time for you to start going getting groceries regularly for the household.
28:19
SPEAKER_02: How do you feel about that?
28:23
SPEAKER_02: He was like, uh uh, okay, you know.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: We said, look, we go to three different grocery stores.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: We go to the Safeway, we go to the specialty store piazas, and we go to Trader Joe's.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: You know, we do different shops at different places to make the most of our money and get the best produce.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Would you like to take one of those?
28:40
SPEAKER_02: Which one would you like to take?
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Trader Joe's.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: Okay, great.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: You're now responsible for the family's Trader Joe's shop.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: It's my kid.
28:46
SPEAKER_02: And that kid has gone every single weekend without fail.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: He does not shirk his duty.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: And after about six weeks of it, I said, How's that grocery shopping going for you?
28:56
SPEAKER_02: He's like, You know what?
28:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm doing it.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: I was like, You certainly are, and you didn't believe you could.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: And only in the doing do you develop the knowledge how to and the confidence that you can.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: The answer was embedded in the doing.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, and my mother was sick.
29:13
SPEAKER_02: My mother and we bought a home together 25 years ago.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: She began to grow frail, develop cancer, develop cognitive decline.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: And for a while it was just me as her primary caregiver with Dan and Sawyer doing a little bit on the side.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: But I came to them about um a year and a half, about a year before she died, and I said, guys, I need you both to step up.
29:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, and they were like, Okay, yes, what is what does that mean?
29:37
SPEAKER_02: What and he was afraid this is his grandma.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's hard to be around sick people and you love them.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: But and but I just was really clear, like, I can't carry this anymore.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: I need your help.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: And both guys stepped up, and then we brought in extra help.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: And we would come to each other after visiting Gaga.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, often it was scary, uh difficult to see, you know, uh exhausting, uh bewildering, um, and or we'd have really big angry feelings.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: And we became a family of three, my son, my partner and I, who could come together and say, I just had a really difficult time and I just need to, and we would huddle.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: We would literally put our arms around each other as if we were a rugby team or like a football team and huddle and express our feelings and support each other.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: And we developed these bodily rituals of like how we would hug and how we would support.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: And um, and that helped grow my son up some more and gave us all the support we needed.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: The other thing is, um, you know, we don't eat dinner together, the three of us, because we eat different things.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: And but I know how important connection is.
30:48
SPEAKER_02: It's not dinner that's important, it's deliberate regular connection.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: So I said, Hey guys, I'm writing this book on, you know, the bonus years, how important it is that families have dinner.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: We don't do dinner.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm not asking that we do, but we need a daily ritual.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: And so my partner and I both work outside in the home.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we we work from home.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: Our son is the only one with the traditional job outside the home.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: So he said, How about when I get home from work, I come find you guys and we just check in for half an hour.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: And that is what we do day over day, and we cherish it.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: And every and it's just the mundane.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Here's how my day is going, here's what was hard, here's what, and so there's a there's a mutual respect in the check-in, there's a mutual respect in the huddle.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: It's like we're all in this, it's sometimes hard.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: We care about each other.
31:35
SPEAKER_02: Let's be sure we're aware of what each other's going through.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: And that emotional connection, that emotional strengthening has given us a bond that is strong enough that we can now talk about the hard things.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: So Sawyer pays us rent.
31:50
SPEAKER_02: He pays 30% of his gross to us, and we're keeping it in an account to give back to him for first and last when he rents somewhere else or to put down payment on a home.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: And he's late often with the rent.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we I've moved from like asking him for rent, tolerating the lateness, giving him a bonus if he pays it early, to uh now what we've moved to is if you pay it within the first four days, you get a discount.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: If you pay it on the day it's due, um, it's it's you know, it's the actual amount.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: And if by the end of that day you haven't paid it, we will hound you until you pay it.
32:25
SPEAKER_02: We're not giving you a grace of a of a day or two or a week.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: Like no boss, no landlord out in the world is gonna give you grace.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: And we are doing you a disservice if we give you grace.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: So it's gonna be like, you haven't paid your rent.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: It's time.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'll do it.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: Nope, pull out your phone right now.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: I need you to do it right now.
32:40
SPEAKER_02: And that's gonna be a holding line for us that we were never capable of when he first came home back in 2020.
32:46
unknown: Right.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: So those are some examples around money, around groceries, around huddling, around the emotions and checking in to be aware of each other's uh, you know, day-to-day.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh, all of those things have helped all of us be better regulated in our emotions, be more connected relationally, and more able to talk about the tough stuff.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're done now.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: I am proud of us.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna lie.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: I am proud of us.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: And I will say I went from God, we'll have failed if he's still with us at 25 to God, my God, what would we have done without this young man who was so there for us and his grandmother, who steps up and does things around the house, who jumps up onto the roof to install a new, you know, Wi-Fi, whatever.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: I mean, he's he's the he's the adult who is more physically capable, more agile.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we are slowly seguing to being the elders.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: And he's, you know, it's like in four, three and a half years, he'll be 30.
33:45
SPEAKER_02: And uh he he grows more and more skilled, you know, with with every month or six months that passes.
33:52
SPEAKER_02: I'll look back and I'll reflect aloud on let's tally up the things you're doing today that you didn't think you were capable of a year ago and you certainly weren't capable of three years ago.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: In other words, to do the articulation so he hears it because he's his anxiety still tells him, I can't, I can't.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: So we're now playing the role of let's lay the facts out and go over them just to make sure you're realizing what you have been doing.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: We're not fluffing it up.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: We're just let's reiterate what you have been doing so that you can run your mind over it and see the evidence.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: Because you're predisposed to not wanting to see the evidence, to worrying that you can't.
34:30
SPEAKER_02: Let us show you the evidence right here in front of you that you can.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: So you've touched on something very powerful uh connection and communication.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: I I don't, I can't stress enough how important it is for parents to get their kids out of those rooms and sitting with them.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Um whatever you can do with them, walking, driving along, running errands with them, pulling a puzzle out, any which way you can to reconnect with your adult child is so powerful.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: And the communication, again, not always being the one that's talking, but asking the open-ended questions and listening and really understanding, like you did, like where's your fears?
35:16
SPEAKER_01: My fear is in you know, X, Y, Z.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's body double, let's do that together.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: We can right.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: And so that that is where, again, a lot of parents will say, you know, something's wrong with my kid.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: Wait, step back for a second.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: It's the relationship that you can work on.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes, yes.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, you used the word consequences earlier, and I put a pin in it because in my book, uh, essentially the, you know, if it's if the book is 200 pages, the whole gist of it is uh connection and communication.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: It's you gotta have regular family conversations.
35:50
SPEAKER_02: That is the heart of your success.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: And you move from rules and consequences, which you had maybe when they were young, or you certainly would have if you were running a boarding house of strangers.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: This is not a boarding house, it's your freaking family.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: So I believe it's not rules and consequences, it's communication and agreements.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: It's we're all adults here, we all have perspectives, we all have needs, we all have desires, we all have things we hate and things we want.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: And if we can get to a relational space where we can actually talk openly and honestly regularly, then I, as the mom, can say, you may not intend it this way, but I feel disrespected when, you know, you leave a whole pile of things, it's like you think someone else is gonna take care of it.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: I've said that to my son and watched him tear up like, mom, I don't mean disrespect.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: I never thought about it that way, right?
36:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, and I never said it because I assumed he was disrespecting.
36:48
SPEAKER_02: He was like, Oh my God, I'm hurting my mom.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to hurt my mom, you know, and and we're able to get to this emotional space of I love you, no, I love you, you know, like, and then we're able to say, okay, so what are we gonna do about the pile of things?
37:00
SPEAKER_02: You know, how can we, you know, do you need more reminders?
37:04
SPEAKER_02: You know, do I need like he keeps his dishes up in his room and take food up to his room?
37:07
SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, it's piles of dishes that you know, and and I've gotten to like, so I need you to bring your dishes down.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: He started doing that, but he'd bring them down 20 at once.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: I like, I can't handle 20 at once.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: I'm the one that does the dishes.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: This is not fair to me to have an overload.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: I need you to bring them down regularly, please.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, my chore gets completely clogged.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: And I don't have to feel its disrespect anymore.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: I just have to take it as he doesn't appreciate the consequences of the actions he's taking.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: I need to show him and then make my ask without fear or without shame.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, I have the right to ask for what I need.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: He has the right to ask for what he needs, and we can work out some kinds of compromises.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't have a problem with consequences because they're they exist every single day of our lives.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: We everything we do is followed by a consequence.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: I just think, I just think there's power in power wielded in families can be unhealthy, really unhealthy.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: So we may be using a different definition of consequences, right?
38:09
SPEAKER_02: But I am not interested in my house, my rules, hands on hips.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that kind of right.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: I run into adult children living with their parents, and the parents are like, oh, it's great, my house, my rules.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: And it's like that is disrespectful of the agency and self-efficacy that your adult child has earned by being an adult.
38:26
SPEAKER_02: So I I don't like the sort of authoritarianism approach, but it may be that your consequences give us an example of a good, healthy consequence.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: You're asking me?
38:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, like I said earlier, consequences are positive and negative.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: When you work out, the consequence of working out is that you feel good.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: When you go to your job, the consequence of working is you earn money.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: And that when you have positive consequences, these are rewards and they perpetuate good behavior.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: They motivate you.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Negative consequences are what happened with your son when he's not paying his rent on time.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: If you, if you so they're not terrible things, but the the whole approach is my house, my rules, absolutely not.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: That's just terribly um, it it can make an uh uh anybody feel like they don't belong.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: It's our house and perhaps my boundaries.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: What I feel is important to me.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: So boundaries are not rules.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm a uh I'm uh I hate the word rules, as probably as much as you don't like consequences.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't like rules, I like boundaries.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm not comfortable when you leave your dishes in your room piling up because I'm the one that has to wash them.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm not comfortable when you speak to me like that.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm all about declaring what's important to you.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: As you said, your non-negotiables, your core values.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: We're living in this house.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm not comfortable when you or let me even take it outside.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm not comfortable when you keep asking me for money.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: I work very hard for my money.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think it's fair that you make me feel bad because you're not working.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't so like I I'm all about, you know, expressing boundaries as what, you know, respecting one another.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: And again, always saying, and what makes you feel good in this house?
40:20
SPEAKER_01: What do you need?
40:21
SPEAKER_01: But consequences are every single day of our life that, you know, if we don't pay a bill on time, if we don't get to work on time, if we don't hand something in on time, all time-related consequences.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just, I'm just, I just, when parents say to me, and I think this was whole this was born out of the fact that parents say, What can I do?
40:39
SPEAKER_01: You can do a lot.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, if they're always on their phone, what can I do?
40:44
SPEAKER_01: You can stop paying the phone bill.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: How about that?
40:47
SPEAKER_01: And then if they're if they don't pay their phone bill, then they don't have their phone anymore.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: Little there the consequences are just for me natural.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: They're part of life.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Running a stop sign, there's a consequence to running a stop sign.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: A, you could kill somebody, B, you can get a ticket.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: So to think that you can just live your life in a vacuum or in your room, that that that's unreal, that's not life.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: That's not living.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: So I think we're we we're on the you're just you found a word agreement, and I think that that's fair.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: But I just think that you know, for when parents feel helpless in their ability to change the behavior that's going on in their house, I say you can.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: You absolutely can.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: Even if it's just by expressing what's important to you.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Not you, you, you need to do this, but me, me, me feels terrible watching you not coming out of your room.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: It is hurting my heart to see that you are not making more of your life.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: You are so capable.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's how I said, like I tell parents, it's about what makes what makes you feel in this this is intolerable.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: It is breaking my heart to see you living like this.
41:53
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: So I think I think we're on the same page, just I do too.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: Verbiage.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: Where a parent was so concerned about an adult child living at home, very depressed, wouldn't come out of their room, uh, but would uh would accept meals.
42:09
SPEAKER_02: And so here they were providing meals.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if the kid didn't come home, come down for dinner on time, they would just wrap up his plate and put it, you know, in the fridge or in the oven or whatever, and which with help they began to see was like really enabling.
42:25
SPEAKER_02: It's like he doesn't ever have to come, the food will be there whenever he comes, instead of helping him come down for dinner.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: And um, and then he would start coming down, but he was totally not showered and hadn't showered for days.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: And they they set that boundary, you know, you are welcome.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: We love you, you're welcome to join us for dinner.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: We will make this food for you.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, but we asked that you shower.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: And this is when dinner is dinner's at 6:30.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: We ask that you be showered before you come down for dinner.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: And they just kept asking that, and um it finally started to happen.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh it begs the question, what was the consequence if he didn't?
43:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm just waiting for you to tell me.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, so what happened if he didn't do that?
43:11
SPEAKER_01: Because there has to be an a consequence to in our house, our home, we are comfortable when everybody is showered.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: So I think it was if he came down and he wasn't showered, they'd say, Son, we're sorry, but we asked that you be showered and uh uh we're not you you're not welcome at the dinner table in that condition, but we're happy to have you.
43:31
SPEAKER_02: We're happy to have you once you're showered.
43:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:33
SPEAKER_02: And he would turn around and maybe he didn't come back down.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: And maybe finally he started coming back down.
43:39
SPEAKER_03: Right.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: Um but those parents finally felt like, you know what, this isn't just happening to us.
43:44
SPEAKER_02: We're not just on the receiving end of all of this stuff we don't understand.
43:48
SPEAKER_02: Like we do get to articulate boundaries and consequences, as you've put it.
43:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you can see somebody with such poor mental health, like this.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: These folks need help that that adult child needs help, the parents need help.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: You know, as you said, it's no sunlight, no activity, poor, you know, poor diet, lack of connection with other humans.
44:11
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, there's the there is a mental health crisis afoot um in in so many families and so many communities across our country.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: And um people need help.
44:24
SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to minimize how serious it is if someone's not able to come out of their room.
44:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not just like a petulant teenager, quote unquote.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: It there may be something really wrong.
44:37
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I do want people to try to get their loved ones the professional support that they need.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, if somebody is continually threatening, here's another piece.
44:47
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you said parents are afraid, terrified, I'm walking on eggshells.
44:51
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to worsen my kids', I don't want to trigger my kids' anxiety or depression, I don't want to worsen their mental health.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: And so we walk on eggshells, we're afraid.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: I've heard from parents who've said, you know, my my adult child says, I can't talk about that, I won't talk about that, you know, I'll I'll kill myself.
45:09
SPEAKER_02: And there's no greater threat to a parent than the potential loss of life of a child.
45:15
SPEAKER_02: And so we get stunned into immobility.
45:17
SPEAKER_02: Like, I can't take another step because my child is threatening to end their life if I do this.
45:22
SPEAKER_02: Like, if someone is threatening to end their life, do you know what you do?
45:25
SPEAKER_02: You call, you say, All right, do you have a plan?
45:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, do I need to call 911?
45:32
SPEAKER_02: Because I will call 911.
45:33
SPEAKER_02: Like we take it seriously, not as a threat, not as a I'll call 911, but like, no, I am listening saying, I am taking it seriously.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: I am ill-equipped to handle that.
45:42
SPEAKER_02: I will call the professionals if that's what you're saying.
45:45
SPEAKER_02: Is that what you're saying?
45:46
SPEAKER_02: 100%, right?
45:48
SPEAKER_02: 100% is that.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: And if it's yes, then you call 911.
45:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:51
SPEAKER_02: And if it's not that, then you say, okay, we need to be able to talk about things without you constantly telling me if we talk about things, you're gonna be suicidal because we can't operate like that.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: And if that is really how you feel, then we need to get you into a treatment facility because a family can't operate that way.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: But but parents are in this terror, and I have such compassion.
46:11
SPEAKER_02: Like, of course you're afraid.
46:12
SPEAKER_02: The last thing any of us wants on our conscience is I said the thing that put him or her over the edge.
46:19
SPEAKER_03: Right.
46:19
SPEAKER_02: Right.
46:20
SPEAKER_02: And we see the cause and effect, we assume it's our responsibility, we assume we've done it because they're telling us that.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, we're not the ones responsible for someone else's choice to end their life.
46:32
SPEAKER_02: And um, and yeah, of course, none of us wants that, but we we have to take the threat seriously.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: But we we also if you know, if they're if they're not in that place and they're just using it as the ultimate thing they can dangle over us and prevent us from articulating our boundaries or speaking up about our needs, it's manipulation.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: Good point.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: Good point.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: So I think that there's an opportunity for parents with their kids back at home for a do-over.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: And you did it.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: You did the do-over.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think that parents can really help their kids uh to learn the life skills, to build the self-efficacy, to develop that agency instead of perpetuating or delaying it further.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: And I believe a lot of it, you know, a lot of parents feel like they're not good teachers.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: For example, I would never homeschool my kids because I could never teach.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: But I am a wonderful model.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: And I think modeling behavior is almost like not a shortcut, but it's like if you're lit like living your life as a responsible human being and you're contributing in the house and you have a job and you're getting your shit done, and you're showering, and you're getting to the gym, that's uh that's a you're a role model.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: But if the problem I feel today is that parents are also they're talking so negatively about the economy, and they're wondering why my kid doesn't want to go out and get a job.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: Why should they?
48:07
SPEAKER_01: Everything is doom and gloom.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: So I'm asking, I'm saying to parents, take a look at yourself.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: What are you doing with your life?
48:15
SPEAKER_01: Are you learning new things?
48:17
SPEAKER_01: I I'm not I've said this a million times, I'm gonna say one time.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: My kids know that I'm a student of life.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: I might have even told you this.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: I picked up sourdough, and they see me as someone who's who reinvents themselves, who's not afraid of learning new things, who's faces her fears and gets through it anyway.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think that modeling is teaching my kids to do the same.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: And so I say to parents, look at what you're doing.
48:41
SPEAKER_01: Are you sitting in front of the TV all day when you come home?
48:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, what what do you expect them to be any different?
48:46
SPEAKER_01: You've got to get out and go for the walk.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: And then you say, come out with me, and you know, this is the this is an ADHD trick.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: Five minutes.
48:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, walk with me for five minutes.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: It takes five minutes to make your bed.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: It takes five, and I'll even you convince yourself that if it takes five minutes, you can do it.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: That's the ADHD brain.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: So I I want parents to embrace this opportunity, not be afraid of, and and you're right, by the way, I had a suicide uh author.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: This sounds funny, but you know, she wrote a book on suicide because she had to she lived with it, her nieces and then her own daughter.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: And you know, she said right away, if someone says I want to kill myself, you don't you don't mess around with that.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: It's it's the suicide hotline, it's emergency services.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: And if they're gonna get upset because you did that, then you say to them, I'm not comfortable with you telling me you're gonna kill yourself.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: I am, I'm not equipped.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: I must call emergency services.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm allowed to, as your parent, to feel to put to take you out of harm's way.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: You're perpetuating your mental health by staying in your room.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: It's it feeds itself.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: You know the rat park study, right?
49:50
SPEAKER_01: The rat park study done many years ago where they do you know this so I don't repeat myself?
49:56
SPEAKER_02: No, I don't know it.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the rat park study was basically there was this psychologist who looked at, you know, drug addiction, and the studies were done that when you put rats in a cage and you give them morphine or water, they'll drink the morphine until they die.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: So the deduction is that drugs are addictive and they'll kill you.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: But then this psychologist looked at the studies and said, at no point are there's nothing else to do in these cages.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: So what about if we take these rats and we build them a rat park with, you know, all the fun stuff that rats like rats like to do, and we give them friends, other rats to play with, but we're still going to give them the morphine-laced water and the other water.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: And what happened was they didn't drink the morphine.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: They did not get addicted.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: In fact, the rats that were addicted, they pulled them out of those environments, put them in the rat park, and they chose not to drink the morphine because they had things to do and friends to play with.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: And so it's all about community and connection and stimulation.
51:04
SPEAKER_01: And so he started really questioning is there really a drug addiction problem?
51:08
SPEAKER_01: Or are we just not lonely?
51:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're deprived of rat parks.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and we know that's true.
51:16
SPEAKER_02: We've lost all the third places.
51:17
SPEAKER_02: The sociologist uh Ray Oldenberg coined the phrase third place, which is, you know, home is our first place, work or school is our second place, depending on our age and stage in life.
51:27
SPEAKER_02: He says every human needs a third place, which is that bar, that coffee shop, that bookstore, that dance hall, that bowling alley, that park with the fun things to play, where you can just show up regularly in this kind of a set of regulars, and you kind of more or less know everybody, and you have a place, and people say hello when you arrive.
51:46
SPEAKER_02: You feel a sense of authentic belonging.
51:48
SPEAKER_02: And we're all so desperately uh lonely with our globally connected, you know, devices and uh information in an instant from around the globe, heightening our you know, fear responses because of all the bad things happening and totally devoid of interpersonal human connection, um, which is making us really unwell.
52:11
SPEAKER_02: So you're absolutely right that when we can model it and can say, five minutes, come for a walk with me, I'm going for a walk for five minutes.
52:16
SPEAKER_02: I have to tell you also, our son has said, his dad and I have a great relationship, we've been together 38 years, married for 33.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: You know, we've we're ride or die, we're super tight, and we we're proud, I think, that we've shown our kids what love looks like.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, we've not had a lot of conflict in front of him.
52:37
SPEAKER_02: And so it's made him afraid of conflict uh because he wasn't sure how to work it out.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: So he we began not shielding him from our stressors, you know, about family or money or health or what have you, or you know, you didn't do what I asked you to do, or you don't you misunderstood me.
52:56
SPEAKER_02: So we started if if we were arguing and he came into the room, we would take it elsewhere in the past.
53:05
SPEAKER_02: Now we'd let it happen with him observing a little bit.
53:08
SPEAKER_02: We might turn at some point and say, honey, we're in the middle of something.
53:10
SPEAKER_02: Would you mind give us some privacy?
53:12
SPEAKER_02: But we've realized he needs to see how we are modeling this ability to communicate and listen.
53:19
SPEAKER_02: And and he has said to us, Thank you for showing me how adults work out problems.
53:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
53:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, so what, you know, we're not just teaching them about laundry and you know, grocery shopping and you know, mowing the lawn or doing the garbage.
53:34
SPEAKER_02: We have to teach them how we articulate our concerns, how we listen respectfully, how we, you know, try to take the other person's point of view, try to, you know, work it through with our own, and ultimately reach a compromise.
53:47
SPEAKER_02: And we realized we had deprived him of seeing how that works.
53:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh, because if we did have conflict, we were taking it behind closed doors.
53:56
SPEAKER_02: Now, I'm not saying fight in front of your kids.
53:58
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying, you know, be violent in front of your kids, not at all.
54:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm saying if you're capable of having a respectful interaction with your partner about things about which you disagree, it's great to have that conversation in front of somebody else and let them see how you're gonna get to a resolution.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: I actually really enjoy these conversations.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: I really do.
54:18
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I know that we have an audience and they're listening and they're learning and they're trying to, they're trying to uh they almost need permission to parent again, permission to say, you know, this is what's important, this is what I expect of you, this is what you need to do as a to function in life.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I love that you have such a great story to share.
54:37
SPEAKER_01: I do want to just mention that the bonus years is coming out.
54:40
SPEAKER_01: I know you said next year, but I just want to so so don't go running, anybody, don't go running to buy the book, but hopefully we'll have you back again when there's the pre-release.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: But I would love to know what inspired you to write that book.
54:57
SPEAKER_02: Well, living with my kid, going from oh my God, we failed, he's failed, to oh my god, what would we have done without this person in our life again as an adult?
55:06
SPEAKER_02: I my own mindset shifted from failure to launch to multi-generation, multi-generational living is full of blessings if we do the work to be good at it.
55:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, multi-generational living is the norm for humans across millennia.
55:24
SPEAKER_02: It fell out of fashion in the United States in the 19, in the mid-1940s, at the end of World War II, the government subsidized new suburbs housing.
55:34
SPEAKER_02: It was affordable to get out there and start your family.
55:37
SPEAKER_02: It was really kind of a capitalist ideal.
55:39
SPEAKER_02: Let's have, you know, why live at home when you can live somewhere else and you can have your own microwave and your own refrigerator and your own oven, your own appliances.
55:47
SPEAKER_02: And uh so we became this kind of leave home.
55:50
SPEAKER_02: It was a mark of success to leave home, have your own place.
55:54
SPEAKER_02: And then we became people whose elderly were put in nursing homes instead of cared for at home.
56:00
SPEAKER_02: In many cultures, it never fell out of fashion.
56:03
SPEAKER_02: In many communities and cult countries around the world, it is the norm.
56:07
SPEAKER_02: But in the United States, it is only recently once again the norm for 18 to 34-year-olds to be living at home.
56:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so I uh it is, you know, increasingly on trend, but it's hard.
56:23
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm writing a book to help people be good at it, and I'm deploying all of the lessons my family has learned.
56:29
SPEAKER_02: And frankly, I didn't realize it.
56:31
SPEAKER_02: Here's the extra piece.
56:32
SPEAKER_02: I thought it was just about Sawyer coming home and us figuring that out.
56:35
SPEAKER_02: Turns out Dan and I bought a home with my mother when we were like 30 and she was like 60, and we lived together where we were the young adults.
56:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, 30's not that young, but she was the elder.
56:48
SPEAKER_02: We were the next generation.
56:50
SPEAKER_02: We never talked about a gall darn thing.
56:52
SPEAKER_02: We never had any agreements, we never uh had a way to talk about concerns.
56:58
SPEAKER_02: And so she and I would have these massive fights every four to five months when it finally all boiled over.
57:04
SPEAKER_02: And then we'd go on our merry way, and then we'd have these massive fights yet again.
57:09
SPEAKER_02: And I realized I felt disempowered.
57:12
SPEAKER_02: I was a mom, I was a wife, I was a full-time working person earning more money than my mother and my husband combined.
57:18
SPEAKER_02: And yet I felt in my mom's hierarchy, I felt third because she was the elder and my partner Dan was a man, and my mom is kind of patriarchal.
57:27
SPEAKER_02: And here I was, like the modern woman earning the money.
57:32
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't know where I got to sit at the dining table because I had an elder and I had a male partner, and Dan and I didn't see that way, about feel that way about our relationship, a gendered patriarchal thing.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: But it was like, do I get to decide anything in this house?
57:47
SPEAKER_02: Why does my mother not respect that I am the mom here and she is the, you know, we've never talked about it.
57:53
SPEAKER_02: And so I realized I have all of this angst and a bit of trauma around what it was like when I was living with.
58:00
SPEAKER_02: Now we bought the home together.
58:01
SPEAKER_02: So financially we were equals, but relationally, decision making, all the unspoken stuff was about power, and we never talked about it.
58:11
SPEAKER_02: So I have lived it as the younger version, the younger generation, and now I'm living it as the older one.
58:17
SPEAKER_02: So I have a lot of stories to share, and I want people to learn from my mistakes, and I want people to learn from my anguish, and I want people to learn from my triumphs.
58:26
SPEAKER_02: That's why I'm writing this book.
58:29
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm very excited for it.
58:31
SPEAKER_01: And I will wait a year and a half.
58:33
SPEAKER_01: Um You know, I do always love to leave on a positive note, and I know, I know that many parents would love to create an enjoyable living environment and experience this period of time with their adult children as the bonus years.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: And I I hope that your book offers that to them.
58:53
SPEAKER_01: But is there a message that you can share with the listeners so they can genuinely embrace these years with their young adults, hoping that they once they get through this hurdle of figuring stuff out?
59:06
SPEAKER_01: But what what message can you share?
59:11
SPEAKER_02: My partner, Dan and I realized that when we were struggling at times in life in our late teens and early 20s, we didn't have the kind of relationship with our parents on either side that meant we would pick up the phone and tell them about it or consider coming home.
59:29
SPEAKER_02: We're Gen X.
59:30
SPEAKER_02: We were not raised with that kind of relational closeness with our parents as a generation.
59:35
SPEAKER_02: There's some exceptions.
59:37
SPEAKER_02: And so we looked at each other and said, our kid wants to live with us.
59:42
SPEAKER_02: He opens up to us about his feelings, he takes an interest in us as well.
59:48
SPEAKER_02: What a freaking blessing! This is beautiful.
59:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm on route to a lifelong, deep, healthy, close connected relationship with my child that I didn't have with my parents and my partner didn't have with his.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_02: What a can you hear in my voice the gift that this is?
1:00:11
SPEAKER_02: You know, this multi-generational thing can be so mutually beneficial and loving and beautiful.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_02: Elder care, child care, splitting the chores, splitting the bills.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_02: It makes so much sense.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_02: If only we can communicate in a way that demonstrates mutual respect.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_02: Everybody wants to know they matter.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_02: Everybody wants to be treated with dignity and kindness.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_02: If we can just get there, then our nuclear extended family in this home becomes the antidote to all that's wrong in the world, all that's hard about life.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_02: It becomes a true oasis, a place where you can open the door and everybody knows your name, and everyone welcomes you and is glad to see you.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_02: We're all so deeply yearning for that.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_02: It's simple, truth.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: They're glad to see you, and you are welcome here.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_01: Poetry.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: That was beautiful.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing that, Julie.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you for sharing.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's you know, a lot of misconception that when we talk about helping your young adult become independent and things like that, we're using those words, that they say, Oh, I don't want to kick them out, kick them out.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_01: No one is saying that the reality of young adults living on their own is very far right now from what's possible.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_01: But it's about living together and making it work and raising your adult to be a functioning, capable uh individual that feels good about themselves.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's the goal.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: You did it.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm so pleased that you're writing a book about it.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and honestly, Julie, I cannot thank you enough for spending this time with me.
1:02:06
SPEAKER_01: It truly an honor.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I never knew I didn't know what was going to come of this conversation.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_01: I just know that, you know, from 11 years ago to the the next time that the bonus years comes out, there's so much wisdom that you sh that you have for parents raising adults that I know I was just excited to have you here.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_01: And thank you.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, thank you so much for being here.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Sherry.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_02: Appreciate you, appreciate all the listeners who uh stuck it out and listened to this conversation.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_02: Hope they found, listener, I hope you found something useful that you can kind of plug into your own life.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_02: And we're, I know Sherry and I are both rooting for you to be successful at this, knowing that it does take a lot of work.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the work is very introspective and deep within you.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_02: Getting right within yourself, getting clear on your fears and your needs, understanding your right to ask for help, maybe getting that help from a therapist, coach, consultant, uh, so that you can feel empowered in your home again to ultimately be the parent your adult child needs you to be and deserves.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say anything else.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_01: Um I want to leave on that.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Julie.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_01: All right, and please come back when the book is ready.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_02: I would love to.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_01: All right, thanks.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_01: Bye.
1:03:16
SPEAKER_01: I hope today's episode gave you valuable insights and actionable steps that will help you guide your young adult to launch successfully into adulthood.
1:03:25
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1:03:32
SPEAKER_01: Leaving a five-star review helps us reach more parents who are dealing with the same issues.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_01: And if there's something you want to ask me, I invite you to join Launch Advice, my weekly publication where I answer one question from parents just like you.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: It's free advice that will appear in your inbox probably when you need it the most.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_01: Just click Launch Advice in the show notes and don't forget to email me your confidential question.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_01: And remember, no one ever said parenting is easy, especially when you're raising an adult.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_01: Talk to you soon.