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The Zach Top Blueprint: 5 Laws of a 1% Brand · The Stephan Hogan Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You need a thousand true fans, and in my in our model, it is the devoted circle.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: A thousand people who are truly devoted and a part of this thing.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's a successful business model.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the jumping off point to you having a career in music versus your working a job that supports music.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: We've been working with Zach Top for four years.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just like the best case scenario of being with a team from the very beginning and seeing that through with them to world domination.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: The industry still uses the marketing funnel as the baseline of what a marketing strategy looks like.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that very much relies on viewing fans as a numbers game.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, distilling all, like dumbing all this shit down to I see you, the van and I see dollar signs, and how can I extract that value from you?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Social content strategy a lot of the times gets dumbed down to being just totally self-serving.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the value that I actually provide people?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: GEV.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Gratitude, engagement, value.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you're grateful for the journey and you're grateful to be on stage and the artist that you are doing what you're doing, I promise people will be drawn to that.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: The why behind the what in virtually everything that artists do is just slightly off-target to me.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Time and money and resources are wasted on developing artists and trying to, you know, build audiences.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So why to listen to this to save yourself from wasting your money and time on the next release or the next campaign?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um And if someone didn't know what you did and you were to explain to them, what would you say?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're in the artist development business, ventures a music marketing agency.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I hate that term.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, social media is a necessary evil for me, but it's the it's the foundation of the work that we do.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I like to say that we're in the artist development business.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Much much better.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: The media marketing one or that but we're not a record label.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I I came into this 20 years ago.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I feel like uh it was it was the peak of of disruption, like, you know, chaos and music, and everyone just saw uh everything that was happening as a bad thing.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And just, you know, I have a very polar opposite uh uh view of what artists can do within their own control on their own terms and get to where they want to be.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a pretty cool world to be living in.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it's a cool jumping in point to talk about the three kind of groups of people out there and what those are and who's chasing who and why we're posting content but not seeing the fruit of our labor.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: All of um all this for me is is born from like we were talking about earlier, like, you know, it's great to have a gut feeling that way we feel like all resonates, you know, like that makes sense.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it's another thing to have that and then have uh research or data set or just something that proves concept in it, you know.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um so my whole you know, rabbit hole that I've been down is is like treating music like a product and and treating the business of your art like uh any other company or service provider or whatever is uh a dead end.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's is basically um capitalizing on a moment and trying to view that as a successful way to build an artist.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So the industry still uses the marketing funnel as the baseline of what a marketing strategy looks like.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that very much relies on viewing fans as a numbers game, you know, distilling all like dumbing all this shit down to I see you, the fan, and I see dollar signs, and how can I extract that value from you, you know?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we developed the orbital model as a way to throw out because I I really love simple visuals.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm, you know, we're talking about ADHD.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like my day, you know, if I'm not careful, I'm all over the place in a million different things.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and all of us, I feel like, need just simple things to rely on to lean back on.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: So throw away the marketing funnel.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: The orbital model is assuming that you keep people in your orbit.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not just a they're not coming through a funnel, you're not extracting value from them momentarily.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're they're aware of you and they exist in some orbit uh and in a connection to you.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the outer orbit we call the curious orbit, the middle orbit we call connected, the inner we call devoted.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: In music, I feel like we spend all of our effort on the curious orbit.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Just how can we get this artist out there?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: How we get followers, dreams, awareness, you know.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Curious orbit.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Curious orbit, sorry.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: So is that is that like So the outer orbit?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: The outer orbit.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we all focus on.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we all see as success.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Alex Heike, the founder of Sound Royalties, and a friend of mine gave me a piece of advice that I'm never gonna forget.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: He said, first decide what is the right move for your career and then figure out how to fund it.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Sound Royalties helps artists, they help writers, they help producers, they help YouTubers and other people that earn royalties, figure out how to access capital without having to sell their catalogs, give up ownership, or their copyrights.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Their funding is completely based on your royalty income, not your credit score.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's no personal guarantees.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Go to soundroyalties.com slash Stefan Hogan Podcast, S-T-E-P-H-A-N Hogan Podcast for a complimentary royalty analysis and free income forecasting.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Fill out the form and a royalty specialist is gonna hit you up within one business day.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or you can also click the link in the description below.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: So first decide what the right move is for your career, then figure out how to fund it.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Would that be me trying to get 10 million views on a video?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what that outer circle is?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now you have 10 a vanity metric, maybe?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Vanity metric.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: It I mean, it's it's uh when we're getting started out in music.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's our the only thing that we care about, right?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's like how many streams you get, bro?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: How many followers do we have?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is the number of people that are aware this art exist artist exists?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, like to the label thing, you know, obviously all of us care about the Curious Orbit initially.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, how wide is this reach?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because there's data there.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody needs that, you know, that indicator that this is something that's, you know, the market's responding.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, telling, you know, I got 10,000 people in my fan club, that's not, you know, gonna get any promoter to want to book you.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, indicators of success.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: It very much matters for sure to me.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: But like the reason the model is valuable is you start applying it to ticket sales.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like a curious fan will buy a ticket, but it's got to be convenient.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotta be right here in front of them.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna plan a night, two months from now, around it.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where it gets really helpful to separate those people from everyone else.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: The connected and devoted audience at the end of the day, those are the people that are actually sustaining the career, like showing up and driving or you know, telling their friends.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I think that so is that the second ring?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: So connected.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So furthest out is Curious.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Curious.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Then we have connected.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Connected.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then this is the person that will make the trip to Nashville to watch you play at Ascend Amphitheater.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: I start thinking of it like, you know, maybe I buy tickets to a show in October.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I know that's happening.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I I might bring two of my friends with me, you know.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: I might have a t-shirt or two, posters on my wall, you know, I'm bought in.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um what would that look like in a different vertical?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just different audience or different fan base, you mean?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just like put a replace musician and artist with Fed business.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think the principles all apply.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: A thousand.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's attention.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, my whole, so my whole background in this is uh Seth Godin, this marketing guru from back in like the early 2000s, uh, came up with this term permission marketing.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, non-music, but like, you know, after the internet had existed for a while and like email had existed for a while, and and like it was easy to market to people.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: He basically said that like, okay, now the whole game is to reverse the mindset and and to be thinking in terms of gravity, but what do I have to offer?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: What's the value this company has to give, and how can we lead people closer to it, you know?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's you know, companies do that very well, dude.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Apple, have you ever felt like Apple Apple has ever crossed a line, you know, with you in terms of pushing you or marketing to you?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can't just tell stories.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Claude, I mean, I don't know if you've been watching World Cup, but Claude has this commercial that played like a thousand times that like made me want to cry every time I saw it.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like, you know, we understand the value that our product has.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a little glimpse of it.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's for you.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Go find it, you know.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like but not selling a product to you at all, not pushing product.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Look at what we can do.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: The majority of the work I feel like we do is counterintuitive to the average artist or person or whatever.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: You just think about marketing and just push, push, push.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think about e-commerce.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like all this is like an e-commerce playbook that was built over decades of time.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um convert, ROI.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, reach, convert, ROI.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: What I care about here is real conversation, real people, and real human connection.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're around Music Row, you've probably heard of Studio Bank or know someone that banks with them.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a reason for that.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: They set out to rethink the typical experience.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: They also offer immediate ATM fee reversal at any ATM machine in the entire world.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's why a lot of my friends that are on the road bank with them, visit studio bank.com or call 615-338-9998.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let them know Stefan Hogan sent you and see how Studio Bank can serve you today.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Studio Bank, member FDIC Equal Housing Lender.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have this orbital model and in in the, you know, like when when that replaces the mindset of kind of what marketing looks like.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and because we haven't gotten to the middle orbit yet either.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Devoted.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Devoted.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: What I really think about with devoted fans is the biggest flaw in that regard is that we forget to treat them differently.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we forget to give them the cred and the acknowledgement.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: However, you know, I can be a devoted fan, and a lot of times an artist has no idea that I exist, or, you know, but the artists that do that well do it really, really well.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, you know, CRMs, I get really excited about the future of music and using a CRM to be able to really understand who who my fans are and how I can give them a better experience and you know, further break people up into niches of value.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: The human-to-human connection.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And just making sure that people understand that you know they exist and that you appreciate you know their support.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think we miss that so much?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're busy, distracted, trying to make cool shit, you know?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's so this is the second thing for me.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're talking about um everyone just wants to grow.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone wants to hire us because they need to grow.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: It could be brand new artists, somebody that's been around for 30 years.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's just something that we need to, you know, the mountain we need to climb.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and they see your success with other artists.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Will you name a few just for context?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Current projects?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so we've been working with Zach Top for four years.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just like the best case scenario of being with a team from the very beginning and and seeing that through with them to world domination.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I've talked about this before, but like, and and you and I were, you know, talking about what it really takes to be successful as an artist.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, when you actually get there and you think that you've made it, like what that really is and and the toll that that takes in the person that you're expected to be.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I don't I think that most artists cannot handle it.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they will not when they if they got there, they would all crumble.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're just not capable of showing up for people night after night in the way that it takes.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: But Zach is an unbelievable example of somebody who's just risen to the occasion.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I saw it in him from the very beginning, as a lot of people did it.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's just you can't fake being excited to make other people happy, I don't think.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I met him recently, and um, I actually interrupted him at a guitar store.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was after hours, but he was in there playing some telecasters and I just knocked.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like he's a pretty chill guy.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: He's a very and he wanted to know what my name was, and I was like, hey, just big fan.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then he was just really cool and humble and down-to-earth.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was like uh, you know, he's like it's like he took one from the Vince Gill playbook or something, you know.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So very much agree on that.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but honestly, dude, I believe that that's like a like a requirement for that kind of success, period.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know that many, you know, people personally that are wildly successful, but um yeah, how does how does he balance an artist like that?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you work with artists, and artists by nature, they're somewhat of uh level of ego.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you how does one balance ego and also being genuinely kind?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And are the people that do it the best the ones with the least amount of ego?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's a heavy hitter right there.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Social content strategy a lot of the times gets dumbed down to being just totally self-serving.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like what do I need to what do I need to post today?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: What what do people need to hear from me today?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just the ego, and nobody connects with that.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and fear of it not performing well, which is also ego.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't get enough views, then your post failed and then it hurts your ego.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: The crux that I think that is so hard for the artist that's just trying to get started out is like, yes, there's no world where if you didn't want to be in the spotlight and you didn't want attention, like you wouldn't be pursuing this as a career, more than likely, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, yeah, yes, you want to be the person, but at the end of the day, if you treat the early years like you're the shit, nobody's gonna want to follow you or support you, you know.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't I I think about this, and you do the same with your own career.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I try to just show up every day.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can I can have my ego and be self-serving, but I show up every day for for everyone else.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like how I show up and what I'm spending my time doing can serve my ego potentially.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: But also, like I talk about we have part of our philosophy in in the work is the GEV mindset.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do I need to post?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: What do I need to say is slippery slope into being self-serving all day, every day.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of thinking about what can I like, what is the value that I actually provide people?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: GEV, gratitude, engagement, value.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you're grateful for the journey and you're grateful to be on stage and the artist that you are doing what you're doing, I promise people will be drawn to that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like I that was when my earliest days of music, of just realizing that, oh, gratitude is controllable and brings people in.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's huge.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Engagement.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times artists want to just hand over the keys of digital to somebody else, and just, you know, there's no actual engagement period.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Value, just understanding what it is that you do that people enjoy.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Leaning on like who do I serve?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: What value can I give them is the successful polar opposite approach than what do I need to post today?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: How can people how can I get seen by more people, you know?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: So does your company function as the wheel in which the artist navigates their career online?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we we can do it all, or we can do fill a couple of the voids.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So so social management, you know, planning and filming content shoots, managing paid media, like all are the baseline strategies that we touch, but a lot of people do those things too.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just being in the business of social management, paid media, like that's a race to the bottom.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're we provide those things in service of being in the artist development business, if that makes any sense.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's make it even more concise.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: So first off, we have these three circles.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: What we touched on a little bit, but I think needs to be touched on more, is that center group.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I believe you said if you had a thousand people in that group.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not even I mean, that's that's a thousand true fans.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's Kevin Kenny from back when I first started out.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was an essay that he was just being like, you know, you're thinking about this in a way that's that's you know, keeping you from getting out of bed in the morning.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need a thousand true fans.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And in my in in our model, it is the devoted circle.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: A thousand people who are truly devoted and a part of this thing.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a successful business model.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's the jumping off point to you having a career in music versus your working a job that supports music.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then in terms of posting or or uh the GEV model, gratitude.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Gratitude, engagement, value.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Number of posts, quantity of postings is a big one in my business, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, like how often?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um the question everyone asks.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: You might be posting five times a week, or you might be posting one time a week.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Consistency is important.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: We know that people need to rely on what they can get from you.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Also, the algorithm needs to know that you don't just show up and leave.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: But everyone, our ourselves included, gets caught up in this game of like the quantity game of just hitting the number means that a lot of times you're getting rid of the true value or just it's fluff, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, it's great to be posting four or five times a week, and yes, you need to be posting across feeds, stories, reels, but really get the other shit right first, then scaling up as you're able to.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: But we have artists that post twice a week and have done that for a long time and it works really well for them.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then others that post ten times a week and it works really well for them too.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's a right answer.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I I we can use me as an example.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: I because I feel like my career parallels artistry somewhat.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Very much when I've been at the You're building a community, yeah.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Same way.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, how do I get my 1000?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I'm curious about, and you can tell me what you think about this, and um, I'll liken this to artistry.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times artists are told actually not even told, they'll post a piece of content, it will do well.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Then they'll be like, I'm gonna do more content like that.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I just did a rant about this thing, and then people liked that, so I'm gonna rant about another thing, and then all of a sudden, your artistry is sidelined to you become the rant girl, and everyone likes that you do rants, but then the algorithm's gonna send your stuff out to people that like rant videos, not music, and so just because you're getting the numbers for ranting doesn't mean that you're actually growing a community of your core circle.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Happens so often.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then for me with podcasting, I sometimes think I always put the spotlight on the guest, but I'm also doing myself somewhat of a disservice if I think about trying to grow a personal brand along with the podcast because I'm not posting about me.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if I start posting about me, then it's one of those things where people don't have as much interest in me as they're gonna have in some well-known artist or songwriter or you know, figure in the business.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: So then you're fighting the ego, I guess, again, on do I just start doing the thing and not looking at the numbers, but start retraining the algorithm to just let people like control, you're controlling the narrative essentially, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're touching on so many good things.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: All right, take it where you want.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so if you start out like before we're posting anything, if we're really getting into the weeds of, and and we've got, you know, like our own methodology for this, but before we talk about how the brand looks and how it sounds and all that, like we got to talk about what the brand stands for, why is it here, yada yada.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: But we got to define how is it different and and what is it that this brand does that's different than things like it and comparing it to the things like it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we've we've sort of outlined the persona, like what are the themes that this persona touches on, what are the boundaries of it?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then we've sketched out the world.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like we we talk about world building a lot.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like an artist is building this world.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's community, yes, but like there's a value that I think about is this world.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I Empathy in all this work because you you get really deep in the weeds sometimes and kind of lose your your footing and lose your sight in all this because some artists do this work naturally and do it very well, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and some of this work can be done just through your music and your stage presence.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but all that to say, like if I am showing up in a way that's vulnerable, vulnerable, something unique about me is being communicated, it's different.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: It leans into the things that you know that I do that I only I can do.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's framed in a way that's valuable to me, the fan.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm pretty pretty certain these days that if I do those three things, the content works and the response is great.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that it's difficult to do that consistently.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Being vulnerable consistently will make anyone go insane.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And can and vulnerability can become inauthentic.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, buddy.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And what does even being vulnerable mean?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I I have we have our ways of working one-on-one with the artist and actually working through these difficult, vague concepts together in a way that we then leave with, okay, you know, those bullet points make sense.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know we also dude, we talk, we like we've we've touched on this too, but you know, no one wants to piss anybody off anymore, and no one wants to no one wants to get any blowback on anything, which means I can't have a stance on anything, which means I can't have my own boundaries on what the brand is about, you know.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you see it with uh Jason Albine's a good example.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: He dug his heels in politically, and then there's a lot of blowback.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then you look at George Strait and he just says, Hey, I'm an entertainer.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't bring that stuff out.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So there's kind of like and then when you take a stance, people love it sometimes.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, half half the people do, you know?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it depends on the issue, but I mean, there's some hot button issues that I'm sure people would like to take stances on, but they're like, I shouldn't put that to my story right now because I'm gonna get a text from my manager.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I think, dude.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I think a lot about that like in the early stages of artist development, whatever.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that really holds artists back that I see consistently is that their friends follow them and they think so much about like, oh, I gotta make all my friends happy.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, like, my buddy's just gonna think this is weird, you know?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that's an added filter of trying to make everyone happy that is another slippery slope.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: I use the term brand alignment a lot.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So brand alignment means the person you are in here, there's through lines between that person, the person lyrically and musically that people get without any other touch just by listening to you.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, stop there.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: People should be taking notes right now.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: So brand alignment.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Brand alignment.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So is this is is this through line of three things.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So your identity, your real humanness, the persona that you've built that represents that identity.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is important for any artist.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, even if you're a solo artist using your name, that's a different, that's a that's a persona, that's not me.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a distinction here.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so through line between you in here, you on stage, and you in your music.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it's easy to forget that we're getting an idea of who this person is already after listening to five, six, seven, eight songs.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm I don't need to open socials or you know, follow you.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I have an idea in my mind of who this person is.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: So go back to where we were.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: If if we do the work to think about what does brand alignment look like for this artist, you come up with a picture that makes it very clear does this person have a stance on like political issues?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Does this person have a stance on, you know, social problems?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um, dude, I watched a thing about Jimmy Buffett two nights ago.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even a Jimmy Buffett fan.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a nice as like a 60 minutes piece from the 90s.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: He just beautifully understood the world that he was building and and understood that no one needed ish like bullshit in that world.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't need politics, they didn't need any state of the world present in Margaritaville.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: The studies from '93.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love thin slicing.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me, talk to me about that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this goes back to again, like needing to prove concept on very important things.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: And realizing that, oh yeah, there's a lot of research out there that we can be pulling from.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And how smart people are.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: How smart people are, dude.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: They can sniff out stuff real fast.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so the on on both sides.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: So so thin slicing, uh I don't know.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Did you guys like I I don't know if you dug into the original study.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I d well, I read about it on Chat GPT, but like it summarized it for me.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Just such a uh But it let's explain it for everyone.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So so thin slicing starts in the early 90s, 92, 93, something like that.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um basically they like the thought was snap judgments, like how good are people at snap judgments?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so the research was was basically taking college professors and saying, okay, we're gonna ask people that have never had the professor some questions about the professor, but all we're gonna do is show them a silent video clip of them that was, I think, is as short as two seconds or as long as 10 minutes.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna ask you questions about how good is that professor at their job, how effective are they at being a teacher?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're gonna compare those answers to students that actually had the professor for a semester and just see compare the two, right?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Bonkers takeaway in that average of five seconds is what it took to be almost 80% accurate in their snap judgment view.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, on high-level things, but 80% correlation between the effectiveness of the teacher and their skill set in being an educator, basically.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, silent video clips, VHS back in the day.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we're fast forwarding to today.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of us are so, so good at figuring out what's real and what's not real.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by real is somebody who's genuinely enjoying the moment, somebody who's genuinely pursuing their dreams, doing what they love to do, and not just phoning it in, you know.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's all sorts of thin slicing studies that have taken place over the last 20 years, some of which are specifically about social media.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um Do you have a favorite of social media studies?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: 2014 one is really good.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it has a crazy name.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Lauren Labricook, I think is the is the um is the researcher.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is basically like this thing is a better indicator than anything else.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh your ability to communicate who you are and and um be your best self is really what what brings people in, I guess, if that makes any sense whatsoever.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: But like authenticity is what it comes down to.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a word that shows up a lot on this podcast.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's the most overused word in my world.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's what everyone's saying, too.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that it it there's so much more to it than that, you know.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think that's why people get frustrated.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like it's a it it gets thrown around without deeper context.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's use it how it should be used.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Let's contextualize authenticity.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the word love, you know, in a way.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: It can be thrown around.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Love you guys, you know, or like some people you'll meet them for the first time, and by the end they'll be like, I love you.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you don't.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you might on a spiritual level in a way, but let's like hold off on chill out a little bit.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's chill out a little bit about just saying I love you.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: But um, authenticity, when I think about it, uh, I think about vulnerability.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: To me, it's someone that is able to be vulnerable and to put themselves out there in a way that other people will connect with, not because they're doing it in a contrived way, but because they genuinely feel like if I'm authentic, I know that someone else out there is gonna connect with this and it'll hopefully help them.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think about that.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first thing that comes into my mind.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's uh because I've done a lot of therapy, maybe it's because I have a heart for people and I'm a strong empath.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: But um, to me, the authentic side of people is what draws me to someone is their imperfections, not their perfection, you know, not them being perfect.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, I mean, uh TikTok released a report, um, like a music trend report last month that I sent the team.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I this is one of the clearest examples or case studies or proof of whatever that like everyone is completely over polish and perfection.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: We know how easy it is to create the perfect thing, and it exists in so many different ways.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, the trend is just getting rid of the fluff and the bullshit, and it means something different to everybody.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: The word country politic comes from a real era in country music when Nashville took country music and made it elegant, strings, background vocals, orchestra.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was country music with polish.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Think Patsy Klein, Glenn Campbell, Tammy Wynette, George Jones, Charlie Pride, songs that still had the ache and honesty of country, but dressed up with style.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that is exactly what this hotel feels like.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: The kind of place where every detail's been thought through.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: The scent when you walk in, the music, the clothes they carry, the textures, the rooms, the coffee cups, the way everything feels curated without feeling fake.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you feel the history immediately, but unlike staying right in the middle of Broadway, it feels tucked away, it feels calm, it feels like you found something.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's honestly why I love it.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's where I go when I want to get away, think, slow down, have a restful time without technology.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're ready, the Ryman and Broadway are about a four-minute walk.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: The CountryPolitan Hotel, stay in the story.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you why do you think people are rejecting AI so much in terms of seeing it online, in terms of AI music and polished, perfect content?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's the it's a beautiful thing.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I have seen just as much uh like it's it's amazing to me to see that that the backlash uh is to retain art and creativity as a human thing.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't like I don't see many people resisting AI as as the tool that it is.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some people, you know, just kind of cast it all in the same bucket.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's always been that for me.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've I never saw a world where AI would replace anything creatively, but make it more difficult and more annoying and distracting for sure.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I love that the whole world is keeping us in check.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of refreshing to see that humans just want to um feel what another human's feeling are going through.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm interested in this.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: You you see people that it'll get millions and millions of views, and it's like a crappy iPhone video where their fingers smudged at the camera, and it's like the captions are saying the wrong words half the time, but it'll like it works.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: If it's vulnerable, if it is different, and if it has value to the receiver, I mean it's fun for me.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I you can answer those questions for a like should I post this photograph?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: You answer the three questions, and it's just as yeah, dude.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: It it really is I I vulnerable, different, valuable.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the value of the different things big because I could get stuck there as my ADHD self on the existential, what is different, what does it even mean?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, you know what I'm saying?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like yes, no question.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: No doesn't mean don't post it.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: It just means if it's not clear that this is leaning into something that's different about you, then it's you know moderately good versus when you can confidently answer that question.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: So your goal in your company is to really focus in on that small circle.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is, dude, when you do this long enough and you realize that you can throw a million dollars at something and get zero return from it, Oliver Oliver Anthony talk about him as being, you know, set a record for the number of songs streaming consecutively or number of songs in the top 10 consecutively with a zero dollar marketing budget and no label, no management company.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that things can hit critical mass with zero touch.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: So why is that?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Back in the day, labels were the only companies doing this work that really were capable of doing it, period.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to have something to say about somebody you can go hire to do similar things and and not have to be the 0.001% that is successful signing the deal that creates the career for yourself.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like this, these are tools, these are strategies, this is a mindset.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um when you started the business a little bit about the backstory side, uh because you went into management first and you worked for a management company.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Just started off on my own.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I've I've been a student of the game since the beginning.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've yeah, for whatever reason, I just wanted to go figure out.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Graduated college in 09.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Again, understood that labels were failing and that majors were consolidating, and that something new was going to come from that.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really exciting to me.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um just started out in management.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I started the Monday after I graduated with two mentors, started a different company that lasted two years, started venture in 2011.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: But we were a management company and we're just managing artists for eight years after that point.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And just, man, I was ready to have a family and kids, and I was miserable as a manager.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think I was that good at it.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: We were really, really good at building audiences with the artist in a way that was grassroots and organic, but utilized the internet.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: That was kind of like our differentiator.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was how it started for the most part.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, let's press into this, and then you moved out of management into that.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, all of my, you know, my friends were managers, and we all had the same problem.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, literally, our first two clients um were manager friends of mine, friends of mine that was just, you know, this is what we do now.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Here's, you know, here's a list of things that we can do.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Can we help?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if you were familiar with the band Moon Taxi, but they were one of our first couple clients under the new umbrella.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, by the grace of God, they released a song that got 300 million streams that summer, and it was a fast track for us to learn the job and learn the scope and got thrown in with RCA team and just like it was a new thing to be a digital agency to be brought into the fold.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: So when you started Venture, you had already been in management.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Did you start it by yourself or with partners?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was graduating from Georgia, I wanted to start a business.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be an entrepreneur, and I got an internship with two guys that were um they were running their own businesses outside of music, but they had been doing artist management for a long time.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, they had zero clients and they were like, look, if you're gonna do this, we can be your mentors.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the first iteration.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, kind of outgrew that relationship, moved to Nashville, restructured.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: They were still in the mix for a little while.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then eventually the equity went to um team members that were helping me to build venture, and that was really the only reason we were able to break through was I couldn't afford to pay people, you know, a salary that was worth a shit.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: So what can you uh say and encourage me today about when you go all in on yourself?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's terrifying.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: But uh wait, do you do you mean from my perspective or from the people that I from your perspective?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because you went all in on yourself.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're an entrepreneur, you wanted to be an entrepreneur, you had the hunger, you found an opening in the market, you did a thing that led you to another thing.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I did a thing that led me to podcasting.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Life works like that.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Doors open, doors close.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: You saw just the market responding to how you were running your management, and you said, I'm gonna go all in on this thing here.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can't like hire people, but I can give them equity.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: So dude, it you know what so then now you you have people, you're starting a company.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you have funding or not, but you're giving up part of your company already that you're starting from the get just to be able to get it off the ground with no promise that it's gonna succeed or not.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you're leaving a management job that probably has a sense of stability, so there's a comfortability there, I would imagine, more so than just bouncing and saying, I'm gonna do sure my own thing.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Am I incorrect that?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Due to your assumption, no, no.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I I hate to give a cop-out answer.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um faith is fundamentally important to me.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I, since the beginning, man, have just been trying to figure out a way that I can live my life in a way that I can be proud of and and provide, you know, I still have an ego.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not pretend like I don't, but like, you know, I want to feel like I've I've lived my life uh benefiting other people and and making this world better somehow.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um so my faith keeps me like like day to day, man.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's just this shit that comes up, and just like every if you would have told me 20 years ago that I was running a company that works three-quarters of our clients are are in the country genre, I would have been like, fuck you, I'm not doing it, I'm not doing any of that.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: But like uh I'm now so happy doing it, it makes it makes perfect sense.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just to your point, it's like the vision isn't exactly what I thought it was, but the journey has gotten me to where I did want to be.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh I mean you know this.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's nothing more fun than getting to experience the moments of of success or whatever, but just like I'm here now.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it very much, and like it's just the starting point, too.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but man, I I I'm not gonna act like uh faith isn't sort of the answer to me of just you know what keeps my compass pointed in the right direction at the end of the day.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's a lot of days for me in Haley where it's like, all right, today I'm operating purely on faith.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what God wants.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, most days, he probably is like puts us in situations to make us have more faith.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're like, oh yeah, get out of your own way.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do this by myself.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, I forgot.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I gotta have uh like faith is that a huge component.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just I I definitely underestimated what I was asking for all along of just, you know, I'm I'm this is what I've always wanted to do building this company and and you know, employing people and making an impact in the world, but like it's a burden, it's a heavy burden, you know, a lot of it is, and and uh yeah, just realizing that the difficulty that it took to get here was preparing me to be able to do this somewhat successfully.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I never had that perspective until somewhat recently.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of had a chip on my shoulder for a long time.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: You just expect the journey to be easier.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: I managed artists for 10 years and never really experienced any, you know major success.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um in hindsight it seems cool, but in the moment it never felt, you know.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: It always felt like I was just missing the mark on on a better version of success, or you know.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: What does it feel like now?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: You feel like you've made it?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely not, dude.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know this shit, like um I think that the the stress has shifted entirely to the responsibility that I have for everyone around me versus the stress that I had before was how am I gonna make it?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's very self-centered, you know?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the shit that I have to deal with now is more has more weight to it than anything that I ever had to deal with before.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: You just get bigger problems.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Bigger change.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I've heard.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard problems don't go away, they just get bigger, or they just change.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: But you're there's always gonna be problems.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't met an owner, founder, CEO that is not stressed on something.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Level.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: Even after they sell the business.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever met somebody that sold their company?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I'm so glad I sold my stuff in my head.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think about this a lot.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like as an artist, and this is the reason gratitude is so important to me.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: You write a successful song, and everyone loves that song.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And now you have to play it every show for the rest of your existence.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a world where you're miserable doing that and you hate doing that every night.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a curse.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a world doing it where you're grateful for the fact that you get to be an entertainer and be a light in these people's lives that that never goes away.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: They keep wanting to hear this thing that you wrote 20 years ago.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like it's always the song that people just, I wrote this one in 10 minutes.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's never the one that like I agonized over for a year of my life that like becomes the one, which is funny to me.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I I believe that's part of God's test to like sort of, you know, to weed out the ones that are in it for the right reasons or not.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: But dude, um, I I want to ask you a quick question while back to because I know there's gonna be people here that aren't just artists, and I know that what you guys are doing is you work with artists, but I'm I'm even gonna so I use myself as an example, I'm gonna use Haley as an example.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: So Haley, she's had a fariations of like her social media life.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: One has been originally when we moved here, Nashville content, like cool places to go, like best restaurants, bars, hotels, that kind of thing.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: Content did really good, people liked it.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: But then I think what happened, you got pregnant, and then we moved you moved into postpartum.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what happened?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Postpartum content, and then into making recipes with our little guy, and then where did it go from there?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: So now she's onto thrifting.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Different brands?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Same brand, same brand, but all the the same accounts, and all of them worked.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting to me because I would think like a niche is important for a creator that is so specific.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess they what did they why would you say that worked?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because of you?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're the personnel.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, man, that's a rare thing.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, I like going back to the idea of building worlds, and like, you know, I see it as potential for different chapters in the story, right?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh I call these the five laws of gravity.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: These are you're building this world, we've got this orbital model in mind, but like how does it actually function and how does it work?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um being in service to your muse, being in service to the thing that makes you you, and balancing that ego with you know, the presence is important too.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it is I'm gonna be me, and I'm gonna be the best version of me, and I'm gonna own that.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's authenticity.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, authenticity.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, value.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: Call it this purpose.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the purpose that you have in the lives of other people?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you gotta understand what the value it is that you provide and do your best.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is difficult to just contextualize it.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: A jam band, somewhat easy, escape atmosphere.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't need my front man of my jam band, you know, talk to me about politics or whatever.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm building this world that is an escape.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um understanding the value that you provide people is huge because number three is I call the mirror.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is, I am building something, I am creating something, but when I hold it up, all you see is you.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is for you.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: It is my thing, but it's for you, if that makes sense.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where GEV comes into play.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's where my approach is not self-serving.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: My approach is in service of providing you value and of making your life different or better or whatever.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um visibility.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: Number four.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: None of this means anything if you just do it at home or in your small town, or just you can't get over the hurdle of putting yourself out there consistently.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we touched on it, doesn't mean you're posting five times a week.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: It does mean that you're consistent and that you're able to help people understand what they get from you and that they can count on it.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it doesn't mean that you're making yourself miserable.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um consistency, the last thing.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Visibility means nothing without three years worth worth of dude, Zach Top, like it's wild to me how consistent this is, but I see three years of relentless energy as being sort of the baseline, like, okay, now is when we expect things to start moving.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um three years, if you can squeeze three release cycles into three years, you're gonna be stoked.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: But the thought of doing, you know, of writing that many great songs or just you know, doing that many things in three years is is kind of baffling.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: But um go look at the Beatles, go look at the Rolling Stones, go look at any band that's that's created world domination, you know.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a there's so much content being released in a very tight period of time.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um like the consistency component is so hard when you get into the weeds because you're being vulnerable.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: You've got this, you know, we've got the whole thing, but it's not working.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're a year in.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, yeah, that's understandable.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: Takes a long ass time, takes 10 years to make it overnight, is so they say.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, there's truth to it, you know?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's my that's the five laws of gravity that uh those are none of those things are new concepts, but it's like the context of them is what's important to me, and I have enough belief in them at this point to bank my whatever on them.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just bought how to win friends and influence people yesterday.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: That book changed my life 20 years ago, probably.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is any of this stuff in that?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, I mean how to win friends and influence people is the first I sold books door to door my junior year in college.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was an introvert and I wanted to be this business guy, and I was like, I gotta go.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was miserable, but I found that book and it clicks just entirely for me.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Faith Foundation, this is controllable for me.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can be a good person and a good friend and lean on those things, and it works.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm excited to read it because you haven't read it yet?
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, I bought it yesterday.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: I bought it yesterday.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: So many of the goats are like always talking about that book.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad you mentioned it to me.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't thought about it in a long time, and I feel like people don't talk about it enough.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it's old.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Tale carnage.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is the audio book, it'll crack you up.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm going to.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I bought.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: I got it on Audible.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: He throws out some references.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, is this the 1930s?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: But dude, it's so I it's I I believe in it being so valid these days.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, uh, not all readers are leaders, but all leaders are readers.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Huh.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a book title, or did you just lay that on me?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just laid it on you.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't come up with that, I don't think, but I've heard it and I think it's true to everyone I've talked to.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: To the point where there's people that have been on this podcast that are leaders, and I'll send them audiobooks and they'll send me an audio book.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in a rut right now.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if you got something for me.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I got credits on Audible.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: I do too.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I know I'm in a rut because I get the notifications eight credits right now.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: I turn back to the physical.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would have bought from you when you were a junior.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would have, dude, this is a door we would have knocked on out here.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, for sure.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Baby.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Come out in the country.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um we got a pest control guy the other day, and we he he sold us.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Did he really go for him?
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just the fact that he came out all the way this way.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's about the only door-to-door people you see these days.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, he came though, but I mean, it's not like a neighborhood where it's door-door door door door.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, dude, and it was like a hundred and something degrees heat index.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we brought him in, gave him a bugger, and let him pitch his pest company.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we signed up.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you might have a southwestern book salesperson out here someday.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Keep an eye out.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I will.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's good to know.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: If that's a thing.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: They started out selling Bibles back in the day, by the way.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Real talk.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably still the top-selling book.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, dude, I feel like you're at the intersection of like tech and creativity and and like psychology and I don't know, yeah, human behavioral therapy.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's the best compliment I've gotten in a long time, buddy.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh that's where I feel like you kind of sit.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really cool.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because it means that you've a manager plays a lot of roles, and all the things that you did, you had to learn a lot of things along the way that you've now been able to put into play, I'm sure, as a leader.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you're always like learning more as a leader and being refined.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the world is changing every day.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's changing every day.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the cool thing is forward-thinking people that look at something and say, Okay, there's this happening.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: How do we work backwards?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do we not do the funnel thing?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: How do we not go for the outer?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think that little inner circle thing.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking to Haley about it this morning in the car.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we were just talking, and I was telling her about you, and I was like, if I could get X number of, you know, people that are really that that core person, you know, kind of like American Aquarium did.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you become kind of unstoppable.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting in like trying to figure out what that looks like, how to build it, and the strategy behind it, and all that.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's something that we can all take something from because you're we're all like, no matter where you sit, people, in my opinion, I'm trying to think of a job where you wouldn't.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty much everyone is a is their own brand.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: You could work at a you could work at Chipotle and you're almost your own brand.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you meet people all the time.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I meet people all the time.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you have 150,000 followers doing what?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is crazy.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just niches for everything imaginable these days.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm saying, like, the the the thought of how you re represent yourself to the world.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: The person that you show up to be and who you are, and all of that is interesting to me.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that I feel like can be applied not just in the music business, which is where you're applying it, but in so many different verticals.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: I d I think this there's hypersensitivity in music, so that if it if it works here, then it I couldn't agree more.
• 56:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's an interesting.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, it's a playbook that I that I feel if you applied it to a business, yes, it's difficult, but it works just as well because it is, I don't know, it's respecting the relationship more, you know.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do I feel a book coming on for me?
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: Are you doing podcasts because you have a book that's gonna come out?
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna come do yours like once a month.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is that it?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: You can interview me next time.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: Deal.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll have content to post to myself.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're uh you're amazing, dude.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: I like I said, I don't I don't uh, you know, love just putting myself out there in general.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're amazing at making people comfortable and making them feel appreciated and and being present.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's huge.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: You yeah.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Very grateful for it.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, I'm grateful for you coming this way and for what you're doing.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that you're empowering creators to not have to feel like they have to not be themselves.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes we just need permission.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we just need someone to say, like, hey, you know what?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be fake, or like, or like, I don't know, you don't have to post five days a week.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to post 60 reels a month.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's okay.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: Just be consistent, be consistent, yeah, and have fun doing it, which you said.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was really critical.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's critical to success too, man.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh, but it's fleeting, you know?
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: The day-to-day fight, like we were talking about before.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, can have a clear vision and wake up tomorrow and I'm back at square one again.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I like uh the the post that you guys have, some of the tips on your Instagram for your company.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: We've got some good blogs coming out and a lot of good shit.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like we got distracted for a long time on the work, and we're doing this is all in an effort to be providing more value to more people and just get less buried in our own little niche.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: Are you guys taking on clients?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Always.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: Always.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: Always.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um what's the best way for someone to get in contact with the case?
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a form on our website.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Every submission gets reviewed, every submission gets a reply.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a nice little funnel of how that all works.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um what we will not do is ever take your money.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: We don't work with everyone.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: We have a very um, you know, we're we're choosy about what we do, but it's it's because of the volume of projects that we have coming in and also um the touch that it takes to be successful in this work.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um someday I hope that we'll be big enough to be able to service everybody that that needs the work, but um we've done it the wrong way enough times to know that we have to be uh concerned about capacity.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have to keep ourselves focused on the right things.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um but dude, I, you know, at minimum, there's a conversation to be had.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um we have options for, we have an artist, an artist accelerator program, which is basically a finite tightened version of our first three months of a campaign lifecycle.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: So built that into a series of three sessions.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that we're willing to do for virtually anybody.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just time, you know, capacity dependent.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then as far as like our actual campaign work with clients, um it's just all about resources and excitement and availability.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to work with a team that has made Zach Talk.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I'm just kidding.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: We I got distracted though.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: We have a lot of uh we have a lot of really cool clients.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're working with Ban Perry.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I've been doing the Ryan and Bingham campaign um this year.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, I'm super fan of his and have been for a very long time.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, we work with a lot of cool artists across drawn as we're working with Mastodon and Ghost right now, two of the biggest metal bands in the world.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um an array of things, but yeah, please reach out.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to just have a conversation.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's Venture.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: VenturMusic.com.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: And on Instagram is it venture music.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: At Venture.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: At Venture, yeah.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought that was a hard one to get.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that you got that, dude.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: That was a hard one to get years ago.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: Score.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: Did you have to buy it?
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-mm.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: You just had it, it was open.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: Relationship.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, like we had a rapid Instagram that was like, hey, uh, like I see this, somebody's just like sitting on this.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys want it?
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: Just like a lucky break.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's amazing.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't have to pull an Elon and buy Tesla.com.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I appreciate your time.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: Stefan, I very much appreciate you, man.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate you, Chris.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, this is gonna bring a lot of value to people.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's so much in here that could be turned into a book or a master class.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm working on it, dude.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: But because when you just give away information like this to help people, I always feel like this is how I feel about the podcast, but it's like if we can just help people, like it's a win.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the the outcome is.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just know that the helping of people and providing information for free for people to just be able to come and listen is huge.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: I agree, man.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't be here if it weren't for other people doing the same thing for me.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, man.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's up.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking of that, since we do have awesome guests like today's guest, Chris Nardon.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is that how you say?
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: Nardon.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: Nardone, yeah.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that's sure that's how it was back in the day.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um over half of you aren't subscribed, so please smash that button, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we appreciate it when you share the socials, and we are gonna keep bringing you awesome guests like today's guest.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, you learned something.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know I did, and I have a lot to think about.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go do my own little strength, my SWAT on my myself after this and uh figure out what I could do better from this conversation.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see you guys back here next Wednesday.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: Peace.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: All right, buddy.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: That was uh enjoyable.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Great, which for me means a lot.