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READING ROOM-FEBRUARY 24 · The Reading Room

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Babe, right, Hello, and welcome to this month's reading Room. So
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this month we've been reading To Kill a Mockingbird, which is a book by
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the American author Harper Lee. So we've had a month to read it,
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and I'm here with Barry Hello and Sue Gerard Hello, and we're going to
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discuss To Kill a Mockingbird. So, first of all, it's it was
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written in nineteen thirty six and sorry, I was a written Sorry no,
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Mary, thank you, thank you, and I appreciate that easy mistake.
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Yes, that's me. And it's actually roughly based on her childhood, isn't
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it. It's roughly based on the town where she lived in Alabama, which
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was Monroeville, and it want to put it surprise. So Barry, I'm
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going to start with you opinions of the book and what you've learned from what
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you think or what you've got from it. Well, I think it's it's
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a feel good book, really, and but there is it's very difficult to
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read it in the context of the time it was written. If you read
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it in the context of today, things are very different. And although it
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is a feel good book and I feel good film, and you know it
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seems to have sort of a justin fair ending for me. It raised an
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awful lot of issues about racism and what have you, which is know,
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it's quite a heavy subject really, so that the whole sort of idea of
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being feel good was a little bit lost on me in the end. So
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but we can explore that a little bit. But that sounds good. I
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mean it was it was there to kind of provoke some reaction. Wasn't it
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provoke emotions? I think Sue Hi, welcome Sue, So what yah?
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So give us what your opinion? All right? Well, when I read
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a book for the first time a book is same as and lauder as this
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one, I always see that it's going to be a disappointment and then it
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will stain in comparison to its reputation. But I really loved the book from
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beginning to end, and I do think it's a shame that it happily didn't
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write more work for us to read. I think that it is a book
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of its time, and I have to say that although I really enjoyed it,
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I did find that some of the Alabama language and terms I found it
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hard to embrace. But then I do think it put that text you on
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a journey into the book, and to water that down, you wouldn't it
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wouldn't have the same impact, and I did. At the beginning. I
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find it difficult to take on the introductions so many characters at once, and
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I felt it was a bit like an act a Christian novel because she's apt
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deliberately to confuse and make setting the murder and more difficult. But then I
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found that as the characters were more drawn and developed, but I began to
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actually like them faults and all, because I felt they were humans. Yeah,
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yeah, I mean I thought it was brilliant as well. I really
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liked it. I read it before when I was at school, and I
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liked it, but this time I liked it even more. But I love
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the fact that it was written through a child's perspective, So it was the
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innocence of Scout, Wasn't it that there was some brilliant moments in it when
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it was just yeah, that's what it is. It's the innocence of a
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child and the characters. And also I just wrote, I actually realized how
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it is used in everyday life as well, just like all well, in
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a way, you've got like the Tom Robinson band, you've got the Boo
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Radley's. It has come into my life and I've thought, I wonder why
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they call that, and then I've just realized why because it made such an
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impact. So I go to Barry and I'll come back to you. So,
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so Barry, can you add Yeah, I think that point about a
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childhood innocence is probably the key to the book. I mean, I was,
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I was worrying when we talk about these books, you know that were
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sort of given plot spoilers to anybody that's read it. But for the key
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moment for me in the book is when Atticus Finch is guarding the jail where
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Tom Robinsons and his children realize that he's out overnight, and and and so
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they leave the beds and come and join him where he's got a mob of
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people, including mister Cunningham, who had been indebted to his father for some
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reason, and so he was there as well, and they were basically a
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lynch mob. And the whole thing swings around the fact that Scout says to
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him alone, mister Cunningham, I know you some Walter, and and and
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that turns that the lynch mob away really, you know, and I think
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through everything else, I think that is the key moment, that's the that's
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the moment that the book pivots around. I think, so can you add
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something? Yes? The one thing that disurprised me about the book with the
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yes and such as one page seven when Jim's talking to do and say I'm
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big enough to stick mine. He said, your name is longer than you
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are. It's a foot longer. And some of the scenes made me laugh
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out loud, it was so funny. But I do admire the way she
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captured the parallel world of children who were creating their own world while all around
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the situations were developing for midults to cope with attitute trying to protect the children.
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And also I like the lightness of touch that she has when she meets
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them something every day, such as as Scout's debut in the polk scene at
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the Halloween pageant that turns quickly into a murderous attack shortly afterwards, and I
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felt that this was indicative of the slow burn character of the book, which
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took you from Maidaelick Sommers as witnessed by the children to the first rumblings of
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something frightening coming along and I think that's a great talent. Oh, absolutely,
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yeah, I thought I thought it was also think she never shied away
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from exposing the brutal truths of the society which was working behind be twitch in
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those curtains. Absolutely well. As Barry said, it's got you know,
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it's it was feel good. I mean it made me crying times some of
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it. You know when when there's an end of life. I'm not going
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to spoil the plot, but you know when somebody dies in it and you
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just think, no, oh no, that why did that have to happen?
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It was I was really involved in the book, and like you,
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so I thought it was so humorous, some of the quirky, little matter
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of fact things that the children say, and you and and the way that
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they the housekeepers treated and She's family. It was just it was so forward
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thinking for that, you know, for that time in the nineteen thirty even
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though it was written in nineteen sixty. I think it was still a lot
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of segregation in the sixty as well. Yeah, now, massively I think
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that. But what part of the point for me really, I think that,
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I mean, obviously, she she does paint the characters, and and
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she she paints them very well, you know, as a sort of a
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cross section of small town southern America and I but I think that I'm not
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entirely convinced with the way the black characters are painted. I think there is
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It's it's kind of comforting for us to know that the black housekeeper is like,
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you know, accepted and very much part of the family, certainly on
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behalf of Atticus and the children. But I'm not sure that there are any
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other sort of black characters who are going to be unhappy with the lot,
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if you know what I mean. There's like even Tom Robinson, who seems
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like a good lad, you know, and helps everybody out and what have
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you. That there seems to be if you like, no anger there.
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You know, it's very much told from a white perspective, I think,
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And that was one of the things I felt uncomfortable with when I was reading
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it, based on our modern view of it, even to the extent that
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it was how they were accommodated. It's a bit like you know, there's
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a there's a there's a black cook in It's a wonderful life, and it's
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a similar sort of thing. I think, you know, it's like the
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characters aren't really explored other than the fact that they seem to be happy in
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the domestic servitude, you know, which is, like I say, I
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felt a little bit uncomfortable with even to the point that when she takes them
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to her church and it meets the Reverend Sykes and they're all very welcoming,
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which is like lovely and part of that feel good thing. But then when
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the trials take in place and they they go up to the viewing gallery,
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which is the black people's viewing gallery, they actually get up and leave their
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seats so that the little white kids can sit in the front. You know.
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All of that just seemed too much of an idealized view of what racism
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was like at that time, and I think it wasn't quite as I don't
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think it was quite as nice and relaxed as all that, to be honest.
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Yeah, it's actually a really good point, Barry. I totally agree
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with you on that. And I also think that Atticus was portrayed as a
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perfection. He didn't seem to have anything bad about him, you know,
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everything he did, and he was calm. So yeah, the characters were
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kind of a little bit unbelievable. At times, And you're right, Sue,
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what do you think? So I agree with that it just reminds me
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of Dion's talking. Then I have gone with the wind? And was it
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Mammy played by Harriet's mac dowell. She wasn't an asker for best Supporting actress,
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and she was like the archetypal black servant who was part of the family.
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And I think, if I think context, she won the Best Supporting
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Actress Oscar, the first black woman to do so. But she had to
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go into the Oscar ceremony through the back door. Oh my goodness. Yeah.
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So these things were there even in the upper echelons of society, and
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I think that sometimes because we are we have moved on so quickly, so
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fast. I think it's difficult to perceive that life could be like that.
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But I do think that the the black characters could have been painted more deeply.
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But then would Scout, if it's written from a Scout's perspective, know
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anything about them beyond their household role, the role in the field. H
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good point, right, and I think that is I think that is a
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good point. But I think that I think that reading it, you need
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to understand that it is written from that white perspective, you know, and
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I certainly read a review by somebody who who thought that having reread it now,
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you know, made it and made them quite angry, which I can
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understand. I mean, even you know, when the Beatles went to America
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for the first time, you know, they refused to play to segregated audiences.
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You know, we're talking nineteen sixty four, very much sort of contemporaneous
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with this, with this book, and I, like I say, I
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think that there was rightly more anger going on, and I think that,
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you know, it's that idea that and even the idea which is entrenched within
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this. You know, bear in mind it is set in the nineteen thirties,
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but it's still you know, apparent is that you know, there's the
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predominantly Christian in the United States, you know, and there's like a white
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Christian church and a Black Christian church. You know, it just seems these
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days, when you look at it objectively, seems quite bizarre really, So
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yeah, and that's where it was feel good, I suppose, when it
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just had those idyllic moments. But the white characters were trayed as much worse,
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weren't they. Yes, indeed, but yeah, they were because they
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were they were explored more, they were they were showing. Like I say,
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I think it's that lack of depth of study of characters within the within
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the black characters, which which which may be a flaw in my view.
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I also would say, you know, it's it's it's very difficult with all
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of these books where you read in that you know the film of because I
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watched the film as well, and I haven't watched it for a while,
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but the film is a is a great film, and it's very difficult to
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read the book without seeing Atticus Finch's Gregory pet I have to say, you
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know, it's like that was even because it was I read the book first
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before I watched the film, but but certainly I had Gregory Peck in mind.
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I mean, he's well, very well cast for it. Absolutely performance.
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Yeah, it was great. Did you watch the film, Sue,
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No, I didn't. Deliberately didn't watch it for the reason that there is
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just stated. I've got very slight recollections of the film and Gregor RePEc as
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Attica's Finch. But to me in the book, Attica seems older and more
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infirm than Gregor repe Okay, yes, in the film. So I tried
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not to, you know, be tempted to watch the film. I will
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watch it now having read the book, but I thought I will. I
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will end up with the producer of the director's view of the characters. I
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know. Yeah, And you always do that. That's why you're amazing,
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Sue, because you just have your own opinion. I do look up notes
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and all kinds and research, but you go for it and just have your
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own opinion. And I think that's amazing. Yes, so but I will
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watch it now. Yeah, it's really recommended opinions. Yeah, really recommend
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that the film too. It's I had to pay for it actually on Amazon
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Prime. Yes, I paid for it. But and it's black and white.
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Yeah, it's very It needs to be black and white. I think
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it's a bit like it's a wonderful life. Any attempt to colorize it is
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an unmitigated disaster in my view. You know, you need to remember it
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in black and white. Absolutely, And just back to the book for a
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bit. The courtroom scene, right, I think you know the jury were
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all white. Weren't they all white males? Yea all white male another floor
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in that time, of course, exactly but you know, it's not so
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different now. And I'm just going to bring it back to the current day
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because I can't help it, because today's the day that Julian and sand is
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having his last appeal. Now there's two judges that will decide his future.
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So I think, really we haven't come any further than back then with justice.
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As John said, justice as a game. So I just wanted to
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make that comparison actually that you know, it's just a few people and it's
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unfair sometimes that go on. Go on to Adam. I'm going to said
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Christ that you know, you look at that jury in Tom Robinson trial,
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and just talking from a st Helen's point of view. At the beginning of
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the last century, there was a Pilkington strike and the strikers were arrested.
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This is before there was you know, sort of if you like, equal
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rights to strikers and so on. And the strikers were arrested and they went
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before a magistrate who was a Pilkington. Oh gosh, So it's not just
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America, you know, it's it happened over here. It were people who
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were fighting for a fair wage or better working conditions, went on strike,
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were arrested and then the person who's judging them owns the company. Unbelievable,
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isn't it. But it's believable. Very much is believable in many levels,
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you know. And I think that that came true. And I think basically
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with that, because he knew he was going to lose, he actually said,
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you know, but he's still going to fight for it. And I
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think that that is quite evident again in today's world. I think that will
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sometimes know that they're not going to win, but they will fight and they
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will bring it to the public's pretention. Yeah, but it's like, you
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know, I'm probably oversimplifying the American court of law, but I mean,
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they have the situation over there where you know, you have to admit to
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the crime, whether you did it or not, or you won't get out.
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So if you if you're convicted of a crime, if you maintain you're
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innocent, so all along, you don't get out. If you're gonna you
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have to you have to admit that you've that you've done it in order to
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get parole, you know, which is like seems like a really it's a
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bit like a ducking stool to me. You know, it's a very strange
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view of justice. But hence you get people who who maintain their innocence and
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stay in prison for a long time after the sentence would have normally ended.
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You know. But I was like, I say, I mean, I
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do read, you know, other people's reviews on it, and certainly I
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read one quite angry review. But who quoted from Martin Luther quin King,
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which which I just thought was was it may not be a perfectly opposite to
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this particular book, but is certainly at worth worth listening to. I think,
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Which is, he who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it
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as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against
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it is really cooperating with it, which just seemed to have an all a
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lot of resonance with with everything. That's so, what do you think,
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Yeah, well, I think it was quoted recently, and I think with
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either the Israeli were the Ukraine War, and it's it's something that is actually
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in the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, and it is the evil to prosper,
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it only takes a few good men to stand back and do nothing. That's
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paraphrased, but that is and it's a longer similar theme. And that was
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a quote about the Second World War, but it was actually quoted someone quoted
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it recently about the wars that are going on at the moment in I think
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it was actually to do with the Americans voting in aid to Ukraine, and
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I think one of the people that was trying to get the vote through actually
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said that quote. And it is. It's true. It's a universal truth,
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I think, and it doesn't and it's got a constant timeline because it's
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relevant to so many different things. Absolutely, I think in terms of the
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book as well, and we talked about this briefly as well. I mean
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the characterization of the judges that the judge, I believe is like seems to
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be a firm man, and you know, Asks Finch seems to be a
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fair man. But the idea is that I suppose that that makeup of that
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jury basically they just ignore the evidence is the truth. So because they'd already
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decided what they were going to do, I think, before they before they
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got that far. I mean, I'm not quite sure even in the film
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whether they use the same people who were in the lynch mob and stuck them
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in the jewelry. I don't know, that's probably might be stretching it a
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little bit too far. You have certainly felt that way. Yeah, yeah,
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I'll just say a little bit about Harper Liso, just about her biography.
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She was born in nineteen twenty six, and she grew up in the
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southern town of Monroeville, Alabama, where the book was based, and she
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was close friends with the famous writer Truman Capote. So she attended the college
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in Montgomery and she moved to New York where she worked as a reservation clock
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in a British overseas ways corporation, and that's when she began to write a
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collection of essays and short stories about people in Monroeville. So that was quite
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interesting that she focused on where she was from. So she published To Kill
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a Mockingbird presented her writing in nineteen fifty seven, and it was published,
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as you said, Barry, what was that in nineteen sixty, Yes,
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July the eleventh, nineteen sixty. So she and it was a huge success.
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They didn't think it would be, but it was. When she was
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getting it published, they denied and thought it's not going to sell, but
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it did. Okay, So she said I never expected any sort of success
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with Mockingbird. I was hoping for a quick and merciful death at the hands
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of the reviewers. But at the same time I sort of hoped someone would
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like it enough to give me encouragement public encouragement. I hoped for a little,
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as I said, but I got rather a whole lot. And in
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some ways this was just about as frightening as the quick, merciful death i'd
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expected. And she has written the kind of a sequel to it, which
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is called Go Set a Watchman. I think she might have written that before
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and okay, okay, carry on. So debate and decided I take the
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rejected to watch one. Initially, Ah, this is about an older person,
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isn't It's about her older And then it came out a recollection that it
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came out as she was dying she died, Yeah, I think it came
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out just before she died. I think she was she was. I don't
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know whether she was in favor of it. I mean, I haven't read
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it, but the people I know who haven't don't read it very well.
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Now I've had that too, but I do want to read it now.
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It's about an older version of Scout, isn't it? I think? Is
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that right? So I would like to read it. It made me want
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to. I was so what was entwelve captured by Scout and the character that
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I would want now to read that book just to see what happens. But
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I think I don't know. I think it got mixed reviews. I think
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it was an instant sellout. I since to remember people queueing up all night
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to buy it, and then there was a wave of disappointment. But I
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would like to read it to make up my own Matt, Yeah, me
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too. Yeah, anything else you're going to add, Barry to what you
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thought of the book and and the characters, Well, the other thing,
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you know, Like I say, generally it was it's it's like a feel
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good book, you know. But at the end, again without sort of
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giving too much of the plot away, you're probably given an awful lot of
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the plot away. Oh you're allowed to. This is the reading room.
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It basically comes down to the sheriff deciding that justice had been done by the
24:26
by the by the death of of the guy who had been telling the lies,
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if you like, and that somehow because he was and had been portrayed
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as an evil man. The fact that he died was like, you know,
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just as well, and we'll leave it at that. You know,
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I think that's quite a frightening view of of of justice as well. And
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I think that that's one of the things which you know, Atticus was was
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basically saying, they need to go to court because even if it's self defense
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and what have you, and because his own family were involved in it,
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the fact that he didn't sort of fight more for justice again to be seen
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to be done because I think for me, the key to justice in all
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of these things, and it might be a very old fashioned view, but
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it's relevant to a lot of things, and that justice does need to be
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seen to be done wherever it is in the world. You know, we
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need to make sure that people are brought to book and are seen to be
25:29
given a fair hearing rather than summarily executed like people seem to be. You
25:34
know what, Barry, I agree with you on one hand, But then
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on the other hand, I think, as we've just said, justice is
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not fair, and if it was always fair, because if you think about
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the book, and you know, they say he fell on his knife,
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don't they They say that he fell on his knife, but in reality he
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was probably stabbed. Yeah it was his knife, I think, but it
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might not have been, so I don't know. So what would have happened
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with justice? Would Boo badly have been locked up? You know? So
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it's I don't know, what do you think? So it's very complex and
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it's a really nice thing to debate. What do you think about what Barry
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just said? Well, I think it's it's mixed mixed feelings. Really.
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What made mean was that justice wasn't done and you know, not to spur
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the plot, but when what happened happened, it was like people went back
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to normal. That's the thing that kind of chilled me, that there was
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no wasn't it awful and that shouldn't have happened. The moments in it,
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it was just well, that's done and life moves on. And that's what
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I was left with me because I think I went into the courtroom knowing that
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justice wasn't going to be done. And although it shocked me the whole procedure,
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I felt that that was a consequence, a consequence of the times.
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But it's the way it was just just when like I don't know, like
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the newspaper in the bin when the headlines sold, and so that's what kind
27:15
of stuck struck me about it. And I think as well, I found
27:22
that with the characters that they all had their own demons in a way.
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I mean, I liked the description of the characters, and I think they
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were well crafted. I would have liked to have known more a bit,
27:37
a bit more about the elderly ladies. But then she did reveal that the
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grumpydly lady had secretly been a drug addict and felt quick before she died,
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so she had, you know, her problems. And I think each each
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section there was an underlying current of people who had their own problems. At
28:02
once, the big issue was neatly t you know, swept away, then
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they went back to their own problems. If you like, One thing I
28:11
have to say is I love the creation of the Bradley. His absence dominates
28:18
the beginning of the novel, and yet it doesn't appear until the end,
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and then only briefly. And I think it takes a great writing talent to
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make a character that you only see once an important part of the narrative of
28:32
the book, because it's always serving the shadows absolutely back into the shadows.
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Yeah, and they never see him again. Do that at the end,
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now they never see him again. And I find that I thought that was
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great, great writing and how the children used the imagination to create world,
28:52
but so did the adults the creative tales and world of their own about their
28:57
neighbors and about what had happened. Absolutely, and also I think with the
29:03
book it was like the timings of it were so perfect in a way.
29:07
You just got over one thing and then it was all entwined with these like
29:11
a bit like Dickens, loads of different stories going on in the one novel
29:15
and they'd pop up at the right time. And for me, I think
29:19
the most emotional bit and I did cry in the film was when he goes
29:23
to see Tom Robinson's dad and his wife after you know, and they're saying
29:27
we're going to do the We're we're going to carry on and ins fight when
29:32
we're going to have the next court hearing, and then he just says,
29:34
oh won't there won't be And it was just human. You just you saw
29:40
everybody as human. You saw the wife and the dad and you know,
29:44
for that that time, I think it was like really kind of probably a
29:47
new thing to put people in that context that it was we're all humans.
29:51
Yeah, I think it was sort of it was out there to cause debate
29:56
in a way. I mean, I think that the Tom Robinson shocked me.
30:03
But also it was the prejudice of the society, which was second nature,
30:08
and they didn't actually know what the prejudice was, which shows how far
30:15
we've come. But in a way it made the prejudice more sinister because it
30:19
was every day it was. But also, you know, you saw even
30:25
through the prejudiced there was desire, wasn't there. She desired what was her
30:30
name again, Mary help here? The girl that desired Tom Robinson. Mayella,
30:37
yeah, Mayella. Yeah. She she fancied him, didn't she.
30:41
So there was that big prejudice, but there was also that sexual tension and
30:45
she had come on to him. Yes, there was all kinds of stuff
30:49
just hidden in that book that you know, well, the themes of the
30:55
novel and the genres, and I think she covered so much in it.
31:00
I think she I think she does. I think that. But but like
31:04
I say, you know, at the risk a repeater myself, I do
31:07
think that the the black characters could have been explored more in that. You
31:15
know, they wouldn't have just been as happy. I don't think, you
31:22
know, there would have been more conflict. I would say, yeah,
31:26
you know, and so you know, I couldn't imagine that the that Tom
31:34
Robinson's family, for instance, would all say, you know, oh dear,
31:38
that's a shame. You know, were heartbroken, you know, and
31:41
then you know, in the end, you know, people were still bringing
31:45
Atticus Finch and his family food and what have you because they were so grateful
31:48
for what he'd done. You know, I think that that was, like,
31:51
yeah, it did seem to sugarcoat that that society. The only time
31:55
it didn't was when they were on the balcony and first of all, they
31:59
said, why these kids here, they should be down their white kids,
32:00
They should be down with their folk type of thing. That was the only
32:06
time it showed, you know, a little bit of that racism from the
32:08
black side. But you're right, I think it did sugarcoat. But maybe
32:12
she didn't really wasn't able to study black characters as much as white because at
32:16
the times maybe yeah, but I think they are going yes, I mean
32:21
absolutely, I mean, at the end of the day, I think the
32:23
book's very well written. I think it's very well paced, and it does
32:28
have that sort of feel good type of ending. It's just whether or not
32:34
it stands. The ending sort of stands up to the scrutiny, which I
32:38
just have that issue, and that's probably because I'm looking at it through different
32:43
eyes. Well, it's interesting. I'm just going to write read this.
32:45
I think it's interesting. So Lee said that To Kill a Mockingbird is not
32:50
an auto autobiography, but rather an example of how an author should write about
32:55
what he knows and write truthfully. Nevertheless, people and events from Lee's childhood
33:01
parallel those of the fictional Scout and Massa Coleman. Lee Lee's father was an
33:07
attorney similar to Atticus Finch. In nineteen nineteen, he defended two black men
33:14
accused of murder after they were convicted, hanged, and mutilated. He never
33:19
took another crime case. Lee's father was also the editor and publisher of the
33:23
Monreville newspaper. Although more of a proponent of racial segregation than Atticus, he
33:30
gradually became more liberal in his later years. Those Scout's mother died when she
33:35
was a baby. Lee was twenty five when her mother, Francis Cunningham Finch
33:38
died. Lee's mother was prone to a nervous condition that rendered her mentally and
33:44
emotionally absent. Lee's older brother Edwin was the inspiration for Jem. So that's
33:50
actually quite interesting, isn't it. It's a lesson to learn if you want
33:53
to write really which is what you know. But then changed the identities of
33:58
the characters to protect the innocent or something. So can you add anything else
34:01
before we? Yes? I think I did. I enjoyed the book.
34:08
Christ I just have to say that when the Jewish decimal system of reading came
34:15
into it and I qualified as a chance of librarian, and he's behind the
34:20
Jewish system in the library, I had to study him and jal system and
34:27
as well as the reading thing, he brought in something like the simplified spelling
34:30
of taking the U out of color. So I was responsible for a lot
34:36
of that. But definitely hits a nerve. Oh yeah, me too.
34:39
That hits a nerve with me too, Yeah yeah, it really did so,
34:44
But oh god, he's happy with you know, Melville Jewish And I
34:49
think I did find as well as Tom robb Tom the Tom Robinson, I
34:55
did find sort of the giving of rifles to children and shooting of animals unsettling,
35:01
but then again it was a window on that world. And you know,
35:05
anything less couldn't have been doing it justice, but I did. I
35:09
loved the dryness of the adn't humor, I have to say, and the
35:14
situational humor of the children. And at times the children were so kind of
35:20
guilt to me, I want to say, don't do that, scout,
35:22
don't do that jet. Yeah, So the character's got to me. And
35:25
I think it's a book that makes you think. It makes you laugh at
35:30
ten to ten, but it also shocks you as well. Absolutely, it's
35:35
difficult to categorize, you know what showen it's all. Yes, it's so
35:40
wide based, and I think for me, the the what the children were
35:45
doing, their actions was just so natural, like when they did with bou
35:51
Radley's house when they wanted to go up and touch the door, and you
35:53
know, we all had that in childhood when there was a spooky house on
35:57
the street or you know, so that was it was just a joy to
36:00
see them and when they were playing to make believe games, and it was
36:05
just a joy to go back into that kind of life before the internet.
36:08
And yeah, I think I think so as well, and as to be
36:14
cartooned from the real world and everything that was going on to be a proper
36:17
child really wasn't it in those days. Barry Well, I just thought on
36:21
that point about the killing of the animals, I think that that was an
36:27
element of a constructor within within the book to develop that character. I think,
36:30
because first of all, you know, the dog was was they didn't
36:37
actually state that, but the dog had rabies, so the dog needed to
36:40
be destroyed, I think is that is the point, but she actually used
36:45
it in order because the kids are basically gem was was unhappy because Atticus didn't
36:52
sort of play football and go and play football with He did play with him,
36:57
but he wouldn't go and try and play for the team, and they
37:00
they didn't think he was good at anything, you know, and because he
37:02
was older. Yeah. But the thing is that at that point, then
37:07
you know, the sheriff hands the and the gun to him, because because
37:12
Atticas had been the cracks shot, you know, and you know obviously down
37:17
the dog with with with one bullet, you know, so and the and
37:20
the kids were then were absolutely sort of you know, first of all,
37:23
you know renewed admiration for the father. So I think that, you know,
37:28
that was an element of what she wanted to create, and I don't
37:30
know how else she would have done it, to be honest, you know.
37:32
But also it comes back to that basic theme of the of the book,
37:37
you know, to Kill a mocking Kill a mockingboard bird, where I
37:40
read one spoof review which said, you know, as an instruction manual,
37:45
it was a bit of a it was a bit of a failure, and
37:47
they hadn't been able to shoot any mocking birds. But as far as the
37:52
actual to kill a mockingbird phrase was about, was that he hadn't wanted them
37:57
to have guns, although he did let them have guns and the guns or
38:00
whatever, but that you know, they could shoot as many blue jays as
38:04
they wanted, but it was a sin to killer mocking birds because they just
38:07
give you pleasure quite a key. So I think that shooting needed, that
38:10
shooting bit needed to be in there to lock into the plot. I think,
38:15
you know, rather than just killing an animal for you know, I
38:21
think there's a parallel there as well. Yeah, you know, you shoot
38:24
a mad dog parallel there, Yeah, with if something distresses you, then
38:34
it goes and it goes from the mind, as with Tom Robinson. So
38:39
I think I think it was just And also I think it was a different
38:45
way of life because a lot of people would shoot to eat, you know,
38:51
they would shoot rabbits. Yeah, absolutely, so I think it was
38:54
a different world. I think I felt that to the shocks with the dog
39:00
was the fact that it had been a commonplace, knowing, familiar dog and
39:07
then suddenly something had happened to change it into a rabid dog. And I
39:14
think there was I think there was more to that than that. The eye.
39:16
Actually, I'm just going to give you that quote about mockingbirds. I
39:21
think it's brilliant. So mockingbirds don't do one thing but make music for us
39:24
to enjoy. They don't eat up people's gardens, don't nest in corn cribs,
39:30
and they don't do one thing but sing their hearts out for us.
39:34
That's why it's a sin to killer mockingbird. That's beautiful. Okay, it's
39:38
nonly time for us to go, because we're going to have an interview.
39:40
Bye, Kate Pankhurst. That's a recorded interview, But I'm going to ask
39:45
you, out of ten Barry, what would you give the book out of
39:47
ten, you'd give it eight, soue, I'd give it eight. Yes,
39:53
i'd give it ten, but I'm very generous to be honest. Well,
39:58
and I never give it ten. But I just thought it ticked every
40:00
box for me. I couldn't put it down. I couldn't wait to read
40:02
it. It was one of those books and it was easy to read and
40:07
it was a short book, so it ticked all the boxes for me.
40:09
But really, having this reading room, it's just opened my eyes to so
40:14
many books. It's been brilliant and anybody listening can join in. You can
40:17
come to Liverpool Community Radio and you can pick up a book and read it
40:21
and you can join us on the show, or you can just send into
40:25
Liverpool Community Radio your opinions on the book. So anyone's welcome to join in.
40:31
And I also want to fank actually Sefton Park Library because they do actually
40:36
lend us the books and they don't mind if they're a bit late too,
40:39
so they're brilliant. That's Sefton Park Library. So now is the time to
40:45
pick at the next book. Alan couldn't make it today, he's not available,
40:47
but he's given his book into the it should be a tambourine into the
40:55
tambourine. Anyway, I'm going to get Barry to pick out the book for
41:00
next month. Let's see what this is, I wrote. I bet I'm
41:07
not looking. I promise I'm not looking. I'm shuffling, shuffling, shuffling,
41:13
and here we go this one. Let's see. Now is the time
41:17
the moment? Okay, Bruce Chatwin on the Black Hill? Is that Barry's
41:24
he's smiling. Okay, you do want first, don't you? What was
41:28
it? The snow Goose by Paul Gallico? We we we certainly, Alan
41:32
and I both chose it last month and it just wasn't available. So if
41:37
it's available, then certainly. But that's my offering for an alternative if it's
41:42
not a perfect and so I'll contact the library today. So I'm going to
41:45
let you guys both go before I play the interview. Okay, So Sue,
41:49
thank you so much, and I'll message you about the book. Thank
41:52
you very much. Thanks for making the time as the next Yes, we'll
41:58
discuss that when when I put the recording on, So we'll discuss. So
42:02
stay on the line. So I'm going to play the interview. Barry thank
42:07
you very much for coming again, and we'll see what that new book is
42:12
about. So I'm just going to play this interview. So today we've got
42:15
an interview with an author called Kate Pankhurst, who's probably best known for fantastically
42:23
Great Women Who Change the Whale books. Kate, it's good to speak to
42:28
you, Hiver, nice to speak to you as well. You were just
42:30
saying you were brought up not far from the radio station in waver So.
42:35
Yeah. Yeah, that's where I lived when I was a bit younger,
42:42
and I went to school, grew up in formby. So it's easy to
42:50
easier to sort of explain to people, isn't He was just saying Liverpool,
42:53
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, living now, but if we want to come
42:58
back to Liverpool, I still said, that's because home yea so sold places
43:02
it might be called it anyway. Yeah, So how did you how did
43:07
you get involved in writing books? What was the was the pathway from you
43:13
know, from education? It was when I was so I got into writing
43:19
through illustrating, so like since I was in primary school, like drawing was
43:24
always my thing. So I loved the beano, like reading comics and books
43:30
like fingers the bogey Man, which was like a big it was like laid
43:37
out like comic strips, psychographic novel. But yeah, I just loved like
43:42
how easy to read they were, how funny they were, and they inspired
43:45
me to make my own comics when I was younger. And I think that's
43:50
where it all began. That's kind of where what type of drawing I fell
43:53
in love with. I loved telling stories with pictures, yeah, and I
43:58
just stuck with it because I enjoyed it. I don't think I had too
44:00
many ideas about like what you could do. The job to do with drawing
44:05
was all I had in my head, but yeah, I kind of like
44:07
stuck with it, and that kind of love drawing just kind of led me
44:12
through to do it illustration at university, and I got into writing my own
44:17
books after I was commissioned to illustrate for other authors. So I illustrated for
44:22
lots of authors and there had loads of different types of children's books, and
44:25
then that eventually brought me around to the fantastically great women books. But the
44:35
publishers saying I could do that when I was younger, I think this sounds
44:40
like ridiculous, but I don't think I realized. Obviously I read illustrated books.
44:45
I read things like The Bino, but I don't think because I didn't
44:47
know anybody who did that job, I don't think I realized, you know,
44:52
specifically, like what I could do with my art skills and like where
44:57
that would leave. But when I went away to UNI study illustration, one
45:00
of my teetors was a children's book illustrator, so she was like, you
45:06
know, you work for perfect fear, you should like pursue doing that.
45:09
And my foot in the door came from entering a competition while it was at
45:14
UNI that was run by a publisher to illustrate an idea for a picture book.
45:19
So I did this book. It was like cats who don't like dogs
45:22
and dogs who don't like cats? And I came second in that competition,
45:25
but I got my first publition contract through that competition, really, which I
45:30
think things like competitions are a really good foot in the door, especially because
45:36
this was like twenty years ago, so it was all very like London based.
45:39
You had to like go down there to show your portfolio. Yes,
45:43
it was my first like put in the door, and then that led to
45:46
me gradually building up to have been my full time job. So what's the
45:52
sort of I'm going to say, trick there. That's the wrong thing really
45:54
because people imagine children's books to be easy, especially the one for you know,
46:00
for smaller kids, where you've just got a couple of words on the
46:02
page and everything, and it's like, oh, I could do that,
46:06
you know, sort of. I think this is a common misconception because I
46:09
think even like the most simple, like seemingly simple children's books, it involves
46:15
like so much craft and cleverness to kind of just get a really wonderful story
46:22
summed up in only a few words, like sometimes with simple illustrations. So
46:28
yeah, I don't think I think a lot of people say like, oh,
46:30
would you would you like to write a book for adults. Now I'm
46:34
like, no, it's not a profession. That is my thing is writing
46:37
for children, and it's sort of I think, yeah, that kind of
46:43
and then also we don't give I think a lot of the times people think,
46:46
oh, it's for children, so it's going to be simple, but
46:49
like they're not an easy audience. You can like underestimate. You say,
46:52
oh, that will really make them, you know, the children will find
46:54
that funny, and then you say it in an assembly in front of two
46:59
hundred cans of stare at you like what you know. You've got to know
47:02
your audience and remember a little bit what it was like. So how did
47:07
the fantastically fantastic I was just called fantastically fantastically raised book stars. They started
47:20
through a conversation I've done like a doodle of a character that based on Amelia
47:28
Earhart, who's the first woman to fly solo across the Atlantic Ocean. I
47:31
used her as inspiration for a fictional character for a book I was working on.
47:36
So I kind of got to know Amelia Earhart a little bit. I
47:38
was, gosh, she's really intriguing, isn't she That she's kind of just
47:43
like visually to look at and a radiated jacket. And then she did this
47:46
incredible thing at a time where women shouldn't have been going off having adventures.
47:51
That's what everybody thought. And a conversation with somebody else actually prompted me to
47:57
think about, well, in a minute, you've done some doodles of Amelia
48:01
her heart, but you're a pankcurs, Because when I was younger, it
48:07
was lost in the midst of time that my family is distantly connected to Emmeline
48:13
Pankhurst the Suffragettes family, and I found out in my twenties my auntie,
48:19
who lived in Liverpool, did some research into our family tree and she found
48:22
a connection back to Emily and Pankhurst. So I think it took me a
48:29
lot of books until I was a bit older to sort of put the bits
48:31
of the jigsaw together and oh, hang on a minute, like Emmeline's story
48:36
would be perfect to tell. And I think often if you've got an idea
48:38
for a book, the best ones are when you have, you know,
48:42
things that you've got a connection to that you want to tell the story about.
48:46
So yeah, that's how it came about, really, and I started
48:49
exploring my ideas for like, what would Emiline's page in the book look like
48:52
an edual keeper and will tell the story of what she did with the Suffragettes
48:58
for a younger audience. And then Amelia Earhart's page ended up being a map
49:02
with her flying like charting the course of her journey acrossic longtercation and talking a
49:07
bit like about what it was like in the past for women and why it's
49:12
so incredible that they achieved what they did. So when you got. When
49:15
you got that idea, that's work. How did you go to a publisher
49:19
and say this is you know? Yeah, yes, I worked out with
49:22
a lot of illustrators and writers will have an agent, so it was the
49:25
agent that I discussed the idea with. They I kind of did a sample
49:35
amelia hearts page from the book with the text on it, like just to
49:39
give a flavor of what the whole book would be. And the book cover.
49:43
So to begin with, it was called Fantabulously Great Women. You changed
49:46
the world, and then the publishers could I change it to fantastically Great Women.
49:52
But a lot of book projects go to if you've got an idea or
49:55
a proposal, you can send it straight to a publisher. But a really
50:00
big children's book fair in Italy called the Bologna Children's Book Fair, but a
50:06
really great place to like if you can get there, show your folders loads
50:08
of different publishers because they're role they're trying to sort of share book projects with
50:13
each other. So yeah, it's the project was seen by Bloomsbury who published
50:19
it at Bologna the Blonnie Book Fair. My agents shared it to them,
50:22
and yeah, the rest's history really they picked it up, and then there's
50:25
been four picture books. There will be three chapter books in the series as
50:30
well. So it's like taken me on the journey that I never accepted over
50:34
the past few years. Now musical as well, a musical version of fantastically
50:38
Great Women. So did the musical come about? Because it's sort of you
50:42
know, it's it's a it's a it's a bit of a leief, really,
50:45
isn't it. You know, did you think let's have a musical?
50:47
D someone say? You know, I think, like, never in my
50:52
wildest dreams I have thought, oh, this will be adapted for the stage,
50:55
Because when I did the book, I was very much kind of like
50:58
working on my own. It's brilliant, really want to tell these stories.
51:00
I think it's an important book to make. But yeah, I never imagined
51:05
that so many people would read it, and I never imagined that I get
51:08
contacted by the producer who've made the theater show to say that always seen your
51:15
picture. But we've got some ideas about kind of giving those messages about women
51:22
in history and empowerment and finding new place in the world. We've got some
51:27
ideas about how to adapt that for the stage. So that I've kind of
51:30
They put together a team, a really amazing all female team of like director
51:37
Amy Hodge. Miranda Cooper wrote the music the songs for the show who She's
51:43
written songs for Girls Aloud, so they're like really amazing, catchy pop songs
51:46
that will stick in your head. And Chris Bush wrote the words as well,
51:52
wrote wrote the script. Yeah, and then they spoke to Amy Hodge,
51:58
the director, in detail about what was important to me about the book,
52:01
like what messages I wanted to get across, and they then took that
52:07
away and worked their magic with it because they're in the theater world, they
52:10
know how that works best. Yes, it was great to be part of
52:15
the process and watch kind of how these things are put together, which is
52:19
a massive learning curve for me because I work in children's books, so it's
52:23
different to the theater. But yeah, they've like Amy Hodgeman, I spoke
52:30
to her. She was talking about what was the most important messages I wanted
52:34
readers to get from the book, So spect to her about how at the
52:38
end of the book there's a page called the Gallery of Greatness, So rather
52:43
than have the whole book be about other women from history, it is about
52:46
that, and we can learn about these women from history and how they achieved
52:52
what they did and how they made the most of their talents. In the
52:53
Gallery of Greatness, the great women from history give a bit of advice back
52:59
to readers. So things like Anelia her Heart says like make life an adventure.
53:06
I think Emeline Pankas says something like stand up for what you believe.
53:08
Yes, I just wanted to kind of young readers to kind of see a
53:12
bit of themselves and be able to, you know, take away a bit
53:15
of inspiration to use in their own vives to to change the world a bit
53:17
themselves. I suppose that's really translated into the play. I suppose when you're
53:22
going from my as you say, working on your own, you know,
53:25
in the studio, writing and drawing to to something that's obviously it's going to
53:30
be collaborative, isn't it doing stage work? Was it a bit of a
53:35
bit of like, you know, this is this is my this is my
53:38
baby. You know. Fortunately, I've like really loved absolutely and you know
53:46
the first time I saw the musical, I was like, Wow, It's
53:49
like if I could have imagined in the world of streams, this would be
53:52
like this, this is it, this is great. Yeah, and then
53:58
the way the theater, Like I work with with an editor and a designer
54:01
at the publisher, so I'm quite used to I'll put an idea out there
54:06
and it might not be the final idea that ends up in the book.
54:08
That you do have to sort of like let go of things that you thought
54:12
were great they don't quite work in that particular book. Yeah, and then
54:17
I think the things that have changed for the stage show. I can see
54:20
why they've done it that way, like it just works, but it's a
54:23
different form of storytelling, different medium. Yeah, so it's different from the
54:28
book. But you know, it was really interesting to sort of like watch
54:34
how that's all put together. Yeah, as long as you're happy at the
54:36
end, I suppose. Yeah, you get the rubber stamp. Well,
54:43
let's just talk. It was on in Liverpool, wasn't it. Was it
54:45
earlier this year or last year? I can't remember what it was now was
54:47
it this year? And then beginning of twenty twenty two. It's great to
54:53
come back stay it with all my family while it was on there. Yeah,
54:57
outside the playhouse, I remember seeing it was gone past I'm quote sing
55:01
them so just let you into the secrets. It's it's it's it's not it's
55:10
not aimed specifically a kids is it's it's a family's family show, isn't it.
55:15
Yeah, it's definitely. It's been made with a younger audience in mind.
55:20
So it's made by the same theater company that made the musical Six,
55:22
which is about the six wives. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, And
55:25
it's been described as I think the quote with six is little Sister, So
55:31
it's like with a younger audience in mind. But you know, I've been
55:35
to see it and there groups of women there together. People have gone with
55:38
their partners, you know, taking their sons and daughters to see it.
55:43
So I think it has got, you know, a really nice wide wide
55:46
appeal. Like I think, whoever you are, you're going to go and
55:50
see it and take something from it. Definitely a little taller in your seat,
55:54
And yes, I think you've got to do something that everyone does want
56:00
to go and see. And I think there's no arm in sort of like
56:02
it's like a lot of like you know these sort of c GI animated films,
56:07
you have the moment, there's always a sort of a there's an obvious
56:09
plot, and then there's a bit where there's you know, there's things for
56:13
adults to get you know, absolutely, yeah, it kind of works on
56:16
lots of levels. Isn't it really good storytelling? I think does do that,
56:20
doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So the nearest it's coming
56:25
to Sonny in Liverpool, Sonny Cansington, it is Sulford, Keys, I
56:29
think it's in it's from the fifth of December to the seventh of the first,
56:34
so it's seventh of January, so it's it's it's filling the Christmas void
56:39
with something other than He's behind you, you know, it's it's it's if
56:44
you want to not take your kids to see a panto but see something that's
56:47
that's probably going to be more informative and educational and maybe a bit more entertained
56:52
as well. And I think it's it's great because it was on in Sulford
57:00
when it did the run, when it was on in Liverpool as well,
57:02
and it's all the dates sold out, so yeah, it's on for like
57:06
a longer amount of times, You've got more chance to see it. And
57:09
yeah, I'm definitely going to be going to see it at various intervals over
57:12
the Christmas period for different friends and family. But yeah, I guess that's
57:16
like coming together and doing something as a family for Christmas. Like the theater
57:21
is a really popular option, isn't it. It's just great it's been given
57:24
that chance to shine all over Christmas in Saltford. Case, I've got to
57:30
say, what's next? Have anything in the pipeline? Where'd you go?
57:37
Yeah? You know? Yeah, yeah, Well, fantastically great women's books
57:40
they're they're carrying on. So I've got a new fantastically great women's sports Starles
57:46
is out next year, so that's like, yeah, women in sports,
57:50
so featuring kind of female footballers that have done amazing things and pioneers of women's
57:55
sport. And then a new pitch book series that have been working. So
58:00
I've got one book that's just been published called We're All Astronauts, and that
58:05
was inspired a little bit by somebody I found out about while I was researching
58:08
the Great Women Books. And her name was Wally Funk. So she was
58:14
an astronaut, a trainee astronaut in the nineteen sixties, and she was part
58:17
of a group of women called the Mercury Thirteen and they got told that they
58:22
did all their astronaut training and then were told that space was no place for
58:27
women, and of course girls couldn't go into space, so they had their
58:30
missions scrapped. But Wallyfunk never gave up trying to get into space, and
58:35
she became the oldest woman to go to space twenty twenty one. So she
58:40
inspired the granny character that's in that book. And there's a little girl who
58:44
wants to be an astronaut and her granny takes her on a journey learning everything
58:49
you need to know about space. And there's lots of stories about women who
58:52
helped get humans into space and kind of done the science behind the rockets for
58:58
the Apollo missions and things like that. Yeah, so carry on in a
59:02
similar theme but a different a different feel to this book. Yeah, can't
59:08
wait. Yeah, I work I've worked around. I've got a grand daughter
59:13
who's eighties, who's as clever as a whip really, you know, And
59:15
so it's the type of book she consume with glean. There's like loads of
59:22
spacey facts in that one as well. And I should say I thought that
59:24
was also inspired by the planetarium at Liverpool Museum, which I used to go
59:30
to with my dad when I was younger, she used to go there into
59:32
the Walker Art Gallery. But yeah, the planetarium really captured my imagination.
59:37
So I wanted to do a book out space for ages. So it's nice
59:39
to finally fulfill my space dreams with that book. Okay, it's been great talking