Latest / The You Project / #2012 Technology Facilitated Abuse - Nicole Liddell

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#2012 Technology Facilitated Abuse - Nicole Liddell · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I get a team, it's harps. It's it's Nicole, not little.
0:04
Speaker 1: It's definitely not little, it's Laddell. So don't fuck that up,
0:08
Speaker 1: right because she gets very angry. And I did just
0:11
Speaker 1: quadruple check that before we went live after knowing her
0:15
Speaker 1: for twenty years.
0:16
Speaker 2: That you know when you you know, when you have
0:18
Speaker 2: a thought and you think, maybe, what if I've.
0:20
Speaker 1: Been getting someone's pronunciation wrong for twenty years? But I hadn't,
0:24
Speaker 1: So that's good. But imagine if your name wasn't Nicole
0:28
Speaker 1: but rather Nikola or something like that.
0:31
Speaker 3: No, then it would probably be Nikola.
0:35
Speaker 2: Well, no, it's got an e on the end.
0:40
Speaker 1: Nicola little, or it could be let's fuck that off.
0:44
Speaker 1: That's a ridiculous conversation. How are you?
0:46
Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm good. How are you?
0:48
Speaker 2: I'm good? How's the how's the PhD landscape? Are you?
0:53
Speaker 2: Are you coming up for oxygen every now and then?
0:56
Speaker 2: Are you drowning in a sea of academia?
1:00
Speaker 4: You?
1:00
Speaker 2: Okay? What is the update?
1:03
Speaker 3: Well?
1:03
Speaker 5: Today, because you know it changes, but today and this week,
1:07
Speaker 5: I'm at that point where my to do list is
1:10
Speaker 5: so long that I'm spending more time writing a to
1:13
Speaker 5: do list than I'm actually doing anything, and then you
1:17
Speaker 5: kind of get halfway through something and then you think, shit,
1:19
Speaker 5: I've got to do something else, and then you know
1:22
Speaker 5: when you just get kind of frozen in that overwhelmed.
1:25
Speaker 5: So that's where I'm at this week. But I'm pretty
1:29
Speaker 5: sure that tomorrow morning I'll get up and do some
1:32
Speaker 5: project management and get myself organized again and I'll be
1:37
Speaker 5: back on track.
1:37
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's where it's at the moment.
1:40
Speaker 1: I have this little ritual every morning which is pursuant
1:43
Speaker 1: to your comments just then you're on it, which is
1:45
Speaker 1: and you probably heard me say this.
1:46
Speaker 2: But I don't say it exactly like this, but it's
1:50
Speaker 2: a form of this.
1:51
Speaker 1: In terms of what I want to get done today,
1:53
Speaker 1: what needs to have my attention, in terms of what
1:55
Speaker 1: I want to do be create change today, that's my
1:58
Speaker 1: little thing. What needs to have my attention, what's the
2:01
Speaker 1: best use of my time, what's the best use of
2:03
Speaker 1: my emotional energy, what's the best.
2:05
Speaker 2: Use of my focus?
2:06
Speaker 1: And it kind of yeah, because you can start the
2:09
Speaker 1: day with twenty different things that you could actually pay
2:14
Speaker 1: attention to, and then at the end of the day
2:16
Speaker 1: you've done nothing nothing.
2:18
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, that's how That's pretty much how the last
2:21
Speaker 5: couple of weeks have gone. And I'm at that stage
2:26
Speaker 5: where there's, you know, five different balls in the air.
2:30
Speaker 5: So I've got I'm interviewing participants for one study, and
2:34
Speaker 5: I'm getting ethics approval for the next study. I've been
2:37
Speaker 5: asked to be part of the Gender based Violence Task
2:42
Speaker 5: Force at the UNI, so I've got to do some
2:44
Speaker 5: stuff for that, and so yeah, so it's all good, but.
2:49
Speaker 3: It's a lot.
2:50
Speaker 2: It is.
2:51
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk. I mean, we always go what are
2:54
Speaker 1: we going to talk about? We just end up chatting. Well,
2:58
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about efficiency. I feel like,
3:01
Speaker 1: you know, we've spoken before on this show about the busy,
3:04
Speaker 1: the busy badge. How are you? Oh, what's up busy?
3:07
Speaker 1: How you going busy?
3:08
Speaker 2: How have you been busy? How are things busy?
3:10
Speaker 1: It's like it's like a social kind of a trophy,
3:15
Speaker 1: and we take pride in how busy we are, and
3:19
Speaker 1: which doesn't necessarily correlate with efficient or productivity or effectiveness.
3:28
Speaker 2: You know, I think that.
3:29
Speaker 1: Trying to figure out, like what are my priorities, what
3:32
Speaker 1: needs to like, what are the one what's the one, two, three?
3:35
Speaker 2: Four?
3:36
Speaker 1: Things today that really need to be prioritized because it
3:39
Speaker 1: is so easy, especially if you are like probably you
3:42
Speaker 1: and me, which is you know, you've got work, you've
3:46
Speaker 1: got study, you've got a life, you've got training, you've
3:49
Speaker 1: got lots of other commitments. We're both in a similar
3:51
Speaker 1: position at the moment. I'm just stumbling towards the finished line,
3:55
Speaker 1: as everyone knows. But but there are just every day
3:58
Speaker 1: you could do. I could actually do forty hours of
4:01
Speaker 1: work a day if there was forty hours in a
4:04
Speaker 1: day and I have the energy, which I do not,
4:06
Speaker 1: but I could easily fill forty hours because every night
4:10
Speaker 1: when I go to bed, there's still a bunch of stuff,
4:13
Speaker 1: not not half done, but there's still stuff to do tomorrow.
4:16
Speaker 1: And you think even even down to like sometimes this
4:20
Speaker 1: is bad, but like sometimes two days will go by
4:24
Speaker 1: and I go, I haven't thought about my mum or
4:26
Speaker 1: dad for two days. I mean, they're always floating around
4:29
Speaker 1: my consciousness, you know. Yeah, I think I'm a fucking
4:33
Speaker 1: terrible son, you know. Or there's that thing that like
4:37
Speaker 1: I got a new dry dryer wash clothes dry the
4:40
Speaker 1: other day when I say the other day four weeks ago,
4:44
Speaker 1: and I put the old one outside my side door
4:48
Speaker 1: next to one of my motorbikes, and I went, I'll
4:51
Speaker 1: get rid of that in the next couple of days. Well,
4:52
Speaker 1: that's still sitting there next to the motorbike, and it
4:56
Speaker 1: may have things growing on it very soon, because you
4:59
Speaker 1: know when you go, yeah, that's not a good use
5:01
Speaker 1: of my time today. That's not a problem. That can
5:04
Speaker 1: just sit there, And I really want to make sure
5:07
Speaker 1: it's not still sitting there at Christmas as some kind
5:10
Speaker 1: of ornaments in the garden.
5:12
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that being prudent.
5:17
Speaker 1: With our time and our energy based on what we
5:20
Speaker 1: need to get done is kind of pretty paramount when
5:23
Speaker 1: you're trying to especially do a PhD like you or
5:26
Speaker 1: create some kind of outcome, you know, be it in
5:29
Speaker 1: business or something else.
5:31
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's interesting because I've noticed a habit that
5:33
Speaker 5: I've had and I think I've had it for a
5:35
Speaker 5: long time, but I catch myself doing it now and
5:38
Speaker 5: I stop myself. Is that when I start to get
5:40
Speaker 5: a little bit overwhelmed for some stupid reason, I start
5:44
Speaker 5: adding things to the list just to make myself feel worse.
5:48
Speaker 5: Like it's like, oh shit, I haven't even washed my
5:50
Speaker 5: car for months, but I didn't care that I hadn't
5:53
Speaker 5: washed my car, but suddenly that, on top of everything else,
5:57
Speaker 5: is appriarately And so I don't know why we do that,
6:03
Speaker 5: but I managed to catch myself doing that now because
6:07
Speaker 5: it's almost like you're deliberately catastrophizing it and making it bigger,
6:12
Speaker 5: almost to justify some level of anxiety. So I catch
6:18
Speaker 5: myself doing that now, and I go, do you really
6:21
Speaker 5: care that your car's not wash?
6:24
Speaker 3: I don't really care about it. Does it really matter
6:28
Speaker 3: in the big scheme of things that your cars not clean?
6:31
Speaker 1: No? Really, And in terms of in terms of my
6:34
Speaker 1: priorities right now, is that going to move the needle
6:36
Speaker 1: on anything that really? No? So you know, let's make
6:43
Speaker 1: sure it's got air in the tiers and petrol. Let's
6:44
Speaker 1: make sure it's not falling apart. But if it's got
6:46
Speaker 1: a bit of dust and dirt and bird poop, it's
6:49
Speaker 1: probably probably not going to derail your life.
6:53
Speaker 3: Yeah.
6:54
Speaker 1: For those who don't know Nicole, let me do just
6:56
Speaker 1: a quick rewind. So we've known each other for a
6:59
Speaker 1: long time. She lives in the Sunshine State. You live
7:03
Speaker 1: in the Sunshine State. I don't know why I'm talking
7:04
Speaker 1: about you in the third person, and that do you
7:10
Speaker 1: know what? You probably don't, but that chat that we
7:13
Speaker 1: have where you were basically unpacking, where your life was
7:17
Speaker 1: falling apart, and you just you ended up starting UNI.
7:22
Speaker 1: I don't know what number that was, we might post
7:24
Speaker 1: it in the show notes, but where the last thing
7:28
Speaker 1: on your mind was really that you would become an academic.
7:31
Speaker 1: I think it's like like, and by the way it
7:34
Speaker 1: works out, you're really good at academia. You're a really
7:36
Speaker 1: good student, you're a really good teacher, you're a really
7:38
Speaker 1: good researcher. But it was almost fortuitous that you just
7:44
Speaker 1: ended up in this space now where at fifty two,
7:47
Speaker 1: kind a halfway or a bit, I don't know, vaguely
7:50
Speaker 1: halfway through your PhD where and you started your undergrad
7:55
Speaker 1: degree which became an undergrad and an honors degree. You
7:59
Speaker 1: started that when you were forty three and twenty sixteen,
8:03
Speaker 1: and then you started your PhD.
8:05
Speaker 2: Too well, I know, last year in March, so almost
8:10
Speaker 2: like a year and a half ago, right.
8:13
Speaker 1: But I love that because so many of our listeners
8:16
Speaker 1: are summer in the ballpark of kind of thirty five
8:19
Speaker 1: to sixty, and it's really nice to hear somebody who's
8:24
Speaker 1: maybe not shout out to our twenty three year olds.
8:26
Speaker 1: We love our twenty three year olds, but it's nice
8:28
Speaker 1: to here somebody who's not twenty three, who's excelling at
8:34
Speaker 1: fifty two. And I know you wouldn't bring this up,
8:37
Speaker 1: but I'm bringing it up. You just got you just
8:40
Speaker 1: did you just win an award or get a grant
8:42
Speaker 1: or you just got a whole bunch of money that
8:44
Speaker 1: you can use to clean your car?
8:46
Speaker 2: What happened?
8:48
Speaker 6: Yeah, So my current self is thinking my past self profusely,
8:54
Speaker 6: because one afternoon I just kind of sat here and
8:57
Speaker 6: looked for external scholarships.
8:59
Speaker 5: I came across this scholarship that was opening in July
9:03
Speaker 5: this year. This was probably about six or twelve months ago,
9:06
Speaker 5: and I put it in my diary to follow up
9:10
Speaker 5: when it opened. So it came up in my calendar.
9:15
Speaker 5: I had a look at it. I said to my supervisor,
9:17
Speaker 5: do you think I should apply for this? And she said, yeah,
9:19
Speaker 5: you would probably meet the criteria, And so I put
9:23
Speaker 5: in the application, not really giving it too much thought,
9:26
Speaker 5: just hoping something would happen. And it was a ten
9:29
Speaker 5: thousand dollars scholarship. I got got the phone call week
9:33
Speaker 5: before last to say that I was the lucky recipient.
9:37
Speaker 1: So wow, congrats, that's amazing. Yeah, how long did you
9:42
Speaker 1: feel if you did like you didn't really belong in
9:46
Speaker 1: academia or like something of a fraud.
9:50
Speaker 2: Maybe you never felt that, I'm sure you did at
9:52
Speaker 2: the start.
9:53
Speaker 1: How long before you felt like, because this is very
9:56
Speaker 1: common experience, the people go into like into a new place,
10:01
Speaker 1: doing a new thing, they feel unqualified, they feel unworthy,
10:04
Speaker 1: they feel all of these, you know, fear based emotions.
10:08
Speaker 2: How long before I felt.
10:10
Speaker 1: Kind of like, I know I can do this and
10:12
Speaker 1: I belong here, this is where I'm meant to be.
10:15
Speaker 5: I once I it kind of has just like it's
10:23
Speaker 5: the the feeling of competence just gets stronger and stronger.
10:29
Speaker 5: Likes I as kind of as the evidence starts to
10:33
Speaker 5: show up that I'm okay in this space. But I
10:37
Speaker 5: think I think I was still imposter syndrome.
10:41
Speaker 3: Well I still do imposter syndrome.
10:42
Speaker 5: But I think I was still kind of doubting myself,
10:47
Speaker 5: especially through honors, because that's.
10:50
Speaker 3: A really that's a tough year.
10:55
Speaker 5: But I think once I got into the PhD, like
10:57
Speaker 5: I got accepted, and you know, the feedback that I
11:02
Speaker 5: got was because you know they do when you apply
11:05
Speaker 5: for a PhD, they put you in an order of merit,
11:07
Speaker 5: and because I worked in the research center for AGES,
11:12
Speaker 5: I kind of got the feedback that I was quite
11:14
Speaker 5: high in the order of merit.
11:17
Speaker 3: To be accepted into the pH d.
11:18
Speaker 5: Which really just blows me away because the type of
11:22
Speaker 5: research we do, we're not really big stats heavy, and
11:28
Speaker 5: stats was never my favorite stuff. But you know, I
11:37
Speaker 5: if something comes up and you know, look, I know
11:40
Speaker 5: I know where to go to find the answer and
11:42
Speaker 5: to work it out.
11:42
Speaker 3: But yeah, So to answer your question, I think once
11:46
Speaker 3: I got.
11:46
Speaker 5: Accepted into the PhD, I thought, oh, well, they think
11:51
Speaker 5: I can do it, so maybe I can. Because that's
11:56
Speaker 5: that's not just you know, someone going you know, someone
12:00
Speaker 5: that I know giving.
12:01
Speaker 3: Me a position.
12:03
Speaker 5: It's based on a whole heap of criteria and in
12:07
Speaker 5: an order of merit, and I.
12:09
Speaker 3: Did really well.
12:10
Speaker 5: So you have to earn your place, and I'd earned
12:14
Speaker 5: my place. So I think that was when I really
12:17
Speaker 5: started to realize that this was something that I could
12:22
Speaker 5: do well.
12:24
Speaker 1: Isn't it funny how we tend to almost value what
12:28
Speaker 1: others think of us more than what we we go
12:32
Speaker 1: do you think I could do this? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
12:34
Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh, I must be able to because Nicole
12:37
Speaker 1: said I could. Like, you know, it's a really like
12:43
Speaker 1: and looking for even worse than that, looking general terms
12:48
Speaker 1: for approval and acceptance from people who actually don't even
12:52
Speaker 1: get a fuck about us, rather than rather than approval
12:56
Speaker 1: from ourselves. You know, I'm so good at not approving
13:01
Speaker 1: of me. I'm so good even now. But I have
13:04
Speaker 1: awareness around it, so I recognize what's going on.
13:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that you and I were talking?
13:11
Speaker 1: Sorry interrupt, but you and I were talking about Oh,
13:14
Speaker 1: let's talk about that.
13:15
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? Why do we pay
13:17
Speaker 2: attention to what other thinks of us more than we do? Like?
13:21
Speaker 1: Why do we need approval from maybe people who don't
13:25
Speaker 1: know us and sometimes people who like may not maybe
13:29
Speaker 1: don't hate us, but don't really care about us.
13:31
Speaker 2: But nonetheless we value that Well, I don't know.
13:35
Speaker 3: I think there's there.
13:37
Speaker 5: It'll be a combination of a heap of things and
13:39
Speaker 5: personal experience as well. I think there is definitely a
13:44
Speaker 5: healthy amount of self doubt that we have to have,
13:48
Speaker 5: like I because I think if we were if we
13:51
Speaker 5: thought that we knew it all, then there's nothing to
13:53
Speaker 5: learn and we're just obnoxious and hard to be around.
13:57
Speaker 2: So okay, I hit the brakes. Does it have to
14:00
Speaker 2: be self doubt or can it just be self awareness?
14:03
Speaker 3: I don't know, awareness, yeah, or a level of.
14:08
Speaker 5: I want to say humility, But it's like that. One
14:11
Speaker 5: of my favorite theories is the Dunning Krueger effect.
14:14
Speaker 3: You know that when you're an expert, but you're not an.
14:18
Speaker 5: Expert because you don't know enough about the subject to
14:21
Speaker 5: know that you don't know enough.
14:23
Speaker 1: Oh you know, this is what I get from people. Right,
14:26
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert at anything, but you know, if
14:29
Speaker 1: I do know a lot about anything, it's about exercise programming, right,
14:33
Speaker 1: And people when people who don't know shit about exercise
14:36
Speaker 1: come and tell me stuff, and that sounds very arrogant.
14:41
Speaker 2: I don't mean.
14:43
Speaker 1: They don't know how little they know and they're talking.
14:48
Speaker 1: They're talking to someone with four decades of experience, owning gyms,
14:52
Speaker 1: working in gym's writing programs, working with elite athletes, and
14:56
Speaker 1: then they start to tell me about this thing that
14:59
Speaker 1: they don't even understand themselves.
15:01
Speaker 2: And I don't want to.
15:02
Speaker 1: Shoot them to bits, but it's it's a really observ
15:05
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've done that the other way around to
15:07
Speaker 1: other people who know more than me.
15:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we've all been there.
15:11
Speaker 5: But yeah, that's I think when you have that awareness
15:15
Speaker 5: that you don't like I think that's a valuable thing
15:19
Speaker 5: to have. Like, the more I learned, the more I
15:23
Speaker 5: realized how much I don't know. So yeah, so why
15:30
Speaker 5: do we? So your question was why do we do that?
15:32
Speaker 5: I think part of it is nobody wants to be
15:38
Speaker 5: the know it all either, Like, so for me personally,
15:45
Speaker 5: I feel like, and I think a lot of people
15:46
Speaker 5: can relate to this is I probably was aware somewhere
15:51
Speaker 5: in my.
15:52
Speaker 3: Past that I was pretty clever. Yeah, but maybe being
15:57
Speaker 3: pretty clever didn't really get me be.
16:01
Speaker 5: Liked or friends or loved or appreciated or people would
16:05
Speaker 5: you know? So, I think I had a fear when
16:08
Speaker 5: I was younger of coming across as a bit overconfident, right, So,
16:15
Speaker 5: because nobody.
16:17
Speaker 2: Like, so you learn to play small?
16:20
Speaker 5: Yeah, I learned to play small And I think I
16:22
Speaker 5: did that. And I know I'm not the only I
16:26
Speaker 5: know that's not a unique thing.
16:30
Speaker 3: But there's something, there's a there's a sweet spot of.
16:36
Speaker 5: Confidence that that isn't arrogance. There's a sweet spot where
16:41
Speaker 5: you can, like I now know that I've earned my
16:43
Speaker 5: place at the table, but I don't have to There's
16:48
Speaker 5: no badge that goes along with it. There's just this
16:51
Speaker 5: this quiet confidence you know that I can bring something
16:56
Speaker 5: to a conversation or whatever.
17:00
Speaker 3: But I was afraid to have that before.
17:04
Speaker 5: I don't know, And maybe it's because I don't look
17:06
Speaker 5: for the external validation as much as I used to.
17:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that for me, a bit of insecurity,
17:15
Speaker 1: a bit of self doubt, a bit of imposter syndrome
17:19
Speaker 1: keeps me inspired and motivated. Like it keeps me hungry,
17:23
Speaker 1: It keeps me wanting to get better and do better.
17:27
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds cliche, but it actually does. Yeah,
17:31
Speaker 1: I would feel weird if I thought I'm there now
17:36
Speaker 1: like I'm good.
17:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm the smartest in the room. I'm this, you know.
17:43
Speaker 2: But you know, while you.
17:45
Speaker 1: Can simultaneously no, look, I'm pretty good at that. I've
17:48
Speaker 1: got some skills that that that's not arrogance, that's just
17:51
Speaker 1: awareness because as you said, there's evidence.
17:53
Speaker 2: There's data. It's like that whole which I've said before
17:57
Speaker 2: on this show.
17:58
Speaker 1: You know where I can go you know, like I'm
18:01
Speaker 1: coming to Queensland this week, so Thursday night I'm doing
18:03
Speaker 1: a workshop. Saturday, I'm doing a corporate gig. And you know,
18:08
Speaker 1: when I stand up to do the corporate gig or
18:10
Speaker 1: even the public workshop, I don't know what that will be,
18:13
Speaker 1: but probably somewhere in the thousands of times that I've
18:16
Speaker 1: done a version of that and without any doubt, there
18:20
Speaker 1: will still be some fear, some anxiety, some underlying whispering
18:25
Speaker 1: voice that goes, well, this could be.
18:27
Speaker 2: The time that you absolutely fuck it all up.
18:30
Speaker 1: And you know, there's that fearful self doubt or that
18:35
Speaker 1: fear driven kind of in a dialogue that's some kind
18:38
Speaker 1: in some ways destructive and self sabotaging, while also knowing
18:43
Speaker 1: so that's the emotion, but also knowing intellectually, well, I
18:47
Speaker 1: must be pretty good at this because people pay to
18:49
Speaker 1: come and they've come before, and or I get booked
18:53
Speaker 1: and rebooked by the same organizations. So these two things,
18:58
Speaker 1: like the intellectual understanding that I'm not shit, can coexist
19:02
Speaker 1: with the feeling ah, I am shit, you know, like
19:07
Speaker 1: the one doesn't have to disappear.
19:09
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I think maybe you're right.
19:12
Speaker 7: A little bit of self doubt is or a little
19:15
Speaker 7: bit of insecurity or I think as long as it's
19:18
Speaker 7: not fucking crippling or overwhelming, yeah, maybe it keeps us grounded.
19:25
Speaker 3: Well.
19:25
Speaker 5: A classic example is next month, I'm going to the
19:29
Speaker 5: Gold Coast to a conference which is it's a stoptimistic
19:34
Speaker 5: violence conference, So it's the it'll be like, the audience
19:39
Speaker 5: will be the DV sector, And my research is it's a.
19:45
Speaker 3: Novel approach to the problem.
19:47
Speaker 5: So I'm introducing systems thinking in an area that it's
19:51
Speaker 5: not really been introduced before, and I'm talking to practitioners
19:56
Speaker 5: that are on the ground, and I'm talking about a
20:00
Speaker 5: topic that every single person in that room will be
20:03
Speaker 5: extremely passionate and emotionally.
20:07
Speaker 3: Tied to in some way.
20:10
Speaker 5: And I've not been on the ground in the same
20:12
Speaker 5: capacity as they have. So I'm very nervous about I
20:17
Speaker 5: would say nervous.
20:18
Speaker 3: But I'm very mindful of not coming in.
20:20
Speaker 5: And going I've got the solution with this systems thinking
20:24
Speaker 5: and really kind of understanding the complexity of the problem
20:29
Speaker 5: from a because I'm going to be a room full
20:31
Speaker 5: of practitioners basically yes, And so I am just quietly
20:36
Speaker 5: shitting myself because I want to make sure that I,
20:41
Speaker 5: you know, introduce this in a way that is sensitive
20:43
Speaker 5: to their experiences as practitioners dealing with some pretty heavy
20:48
Speaker 5: and complex issues. So yeah, it's that it's I have
20:52
Speaker 5: the confidence in knowing that what I bring to the table,
20:55
Speaker 5: you know, might be useful or it might open up
20:58
Speaker 5: some conversation.
21:00
Speaker 3: But I also want to make sure that.
21:02
Speaker 5: I am respectful in the way and conscious in the
21:06
Speaker 5: way that I deliver it, so that I'm not coming
21:07
Speaker 5: and going I've got all the answers to this really
21:10
Speaker 5: really complex problem.
21:13
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's going to be well.
21:15
Speaker 1: I think your safety net is your research and your
21:18
Speaker 1: results and your data. It's like, that's not an opinion,
21:22
Speaker 1: that's results. That's what That's not what you think, that's
21:25
Speaker 1: what the research tells us or your research tells us.
21:28
Speaker 1: So being able to present science, you know, that's kind
21:33
Speaker 1: of you're not getting up there thinking saying, I'm not
21:37
Speaker 1: sure about all this, but let me tell you what
21:39
Speaker 1: I think, or let me tell you my experiences or
21:42
Speaker 1: my opinions. So this is a good opportunity for us
21:46
Speaker 1: to learn a little bit about your research. So just
21:50
Speaker 1: give us a like an aerial overview of what it is,
21:54
Speaker 1: what's the what are you exploring?
21:56
Speaker 2: And then let us go from there.
22:00
Speaker 3: So we are.
22:01
Speaker 5: So I'll tell you a little bit about what systems
22:04
Speaker 5: thinking is first. So systems thinking or systems science is
22:09
Speaker 5: it's a way of making sense of complexity. So the
22:12
Speaker 5: models and frameworks within systems thinking and system science are
22:16
Speaker 5: applied to complex issues and instead of looking at and
22:23
Speaker 5: so when I say systems, it's like, for a good example,
22:26
Speaker 5: is like the healthcare system, the defense force, you know,
22:31
Speaker 5: the rail transport systems. So anything that we operate within
22:36
Speaker 5: is anything that has rules and regulations and policies and.
22:41
Speaker 2: Structure and process and all that.
22:43
Speaker 5: So that's a system, right, And so rather than looking
22:49
Speaker 5: at certain components of a system, systems thinking looks at
22:54
Speaker 5: the whole system as the unit of analysis, and we
22:57
Speaker 5: look for interactions across the system, and we look for
23:02
Speaker 5: leverage points where.
23:03
Speaker 3: We can implement.
23:08
Speaker 5: Change for maximum impact for you know, the least amount
23:12
Speaker 5: of effort or expense.
23:15
Speaker 3: So the system that I'm looking at for my research
23:18
Speaker 3: is it's the use of.
23:22
Speaker 5: Technology or how technology is used the use of technology
23:29
Speaker 5: for coercive control in the context of intimate partner violence.
23:34
Speaker 4: Stop stop all right, sorry, just I'm just like how
23:38
Speaker 4: technology hang on ad tech is used for coercive control. Yeah,
23:45
Speaker 4: sorry everybody, I just don't want to show over this
23:47
Speaker 4: because I think it's okay.
23:48
Speaker 5: So technology facilitated coercive control.
23:53
Speaker 3: So how give us give us an example, an example.
23:57
Speaker 5: It can be anything from threat text messages to an
24:01
Speaker 5: intimate partner, all the way to surveillance, GPS monitoring, hacking
24:08
Speaker 5: into accounts, internet banking docsing, which is you know, putting
24:16
Speaker 5: information online, stalking online, stalking, anything anything that uses technology
24:25
Speaker 5: to perpetrate coercive control.
24:28
Speaker 1: Like threatening to share intimate videos and all that. That
24:31
Speaker 1: was in the news recently. Some who but some couple
24:36
Speaker 1: of people have been where their partners were putting up
24:39
Speaker 1: they broke up, and then that's a really fascinating and
24:44
Speaker 1: I would think bigger than people would think that area,
24:48
Speaker 1: I mean, oh.
24:49
Speaker 5: Massive, Yeah I I didn't.
24:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, like even I was surprised at the technology is.
25:00
Speaker 5: We cannot function without it in our everyday lives, and
25:03
Speaker 5: so it just stands to reason that if someone so
25:09
Speaker 5: we use technology as an extension of our normal behaviors.
25:12
Speaker 5: So if somebody is coercively controlling or is perpetrating abuse,
25:18
Speaker 5: in a relationship. Then technology is naturally going to be
25:22
Speaker 5: part of that in today's world, and it escalates when
25:28
Speaker 5: relationships end or if someone you know, if victims survivor
25:32
Speaker 5: leaves an abusive relationship, then sometimes what they experienced within
25:37
Speaker 5: the relationship person to person, just the technology becomes the
25:45
Speaker 5: you know, the choice, yeah, to perpetrate abuse, and.
25:51
Speaker 3: It's it's the problem with it is is it.
25:55
Speaker 5: Becomes so perpetrators then have this or victim survivors have
26:02
Speaker 5: this sense of omnipresence, so they can't leave the house
26:06
Speaker 5: without you know, because there's tracking devices on you. You
26:09
Speaker 5: can get a new phone, but as soon as you
26:12
Speaker 5: log in with your Google you know, if the tracking
26:17
Speaker 5: software to your Google account or your iCloud or you know,
26:22
Speaker 5: or you then the device itself is it doesn't matter,
26:26
Speaker 5: it's it's the software you're using and you and you know,
26:29
Speaker 5: trying to find out where the where you be, where
26:33
Speaker 5: it is located is really difficult.
26:36
Speaker 3: So it's a big problem.
26:38
Speaker 5: And so my PhD is looking at specifically our the
26:45
Speaker 5: systemic responses to it. So how are we responding when
26:49
Speaker 5: someone is experiencing We call it TFCC for sure. So
26:53
Speaker 5: tech facilitated coursive control. So someone is experiencing TFCC, how
26:58
Speaker 5: are we systemically responding to it, and where are the
27:02
Speaker 5: leverage points in the system that we can enact some
27:06
Speaker 5: change and for some impactful interventions, for better responses to
27:12
Speaker 5: keep people safe.
27:14
Speaker 1: And I mean, this is and I know this is
27:17
Speaker 1: and I guess with AI, this is like, this is
27:20
Speaker 1: like a wave just cascade. This is like a tsunami
27:25
Speaker 1: of technology that's approaching an unsuspecting town of people, you know,
27:32
Speaker 1: just making their sandwich at the kitchen bench. They don't
27:35
Speaker 1: know what's coming. But I feel like with AI, that's
27:38
Speaker 1: only going to make the problem bigger, the control and
27:42
Speaker 1: the ability to do horrible shit for people with an
27:47
Speaker 1: agenda easier in a way because now and then tracking
27:51
Speaker 1: those people who are doing that horrible shit, Like, yeah,
27:56
Speaker 1: I feel like the volumes going up on this what
27:58
Speaker 1: are like what is in place currently or some of
28:03
Speaker 1: the things that are in place or maybe being explored
28:07
Speaker 1: to even begin to mitigate or deal with this stuff.
28:13
Speaker 5: Well at the moment, and you know, so I'm interviewing
28:16
Speaker 5: victim survivors at the moment for the first study because
28:21
Speaker 5: what I want to do first is find out what
28:22
Speaker 5: their experiences are while seeking help, so not so much
28:26
Speaker 5: their experience specifically around the abuse, although you can't talk
28:30
Speaker 5: about the response without talking about the abuse.
28:33
Speaker 3: But I'm trying to.
28:35
Speaker 5: Get specifically what sort of help they've received, and it's
28:39
Speaker 5: really varied. And you know, there are some services out
28:41
Speaker 5: there that cost money. There are some that are if
28:45
Speaker 5: you're referred to the right service, you can get grants
28:48
Speaker 5: and things like that to help you. But you know,
28:52
Speaker 5: there are some forensic digital forensic services that will come
28:58
Speaker 5: out and do a sweep of your home or I'll
29:00
Speaker 5: you know, sweep your car. Police have pretty limited knowledge
29:04
Speaker 5: around the depth. So you know, a policeman can come
29:09
Speaker 5: out and shine a tort around your car and try
29:10
Speaker 5: and find a tracking device, but you really need specialized
29:14
Speaker 5: people to come and really go through your devices and
29:18
Speaker 5: stuff like that.
29:19
Speaker 3: So there is that.
29:20
Speaker 5: But the trouble is that that I'm finding talking to
29:25
Speaker 5: victim survivors now is that they either don't have access
29:29
Speaker 5: to that, or they don't know about it, or yeah,
29:33
Speaker 5: it really depends on who they talk to. It's pot
29:35
Speaker 5: lark if you get if you get the right person
29:38
Speaker 5: to talk to you that's going to refer you to
29:39
Speaker 5: the right services, then you might get some service. But
29:42
Speaker 5: I've got one, you know, one participant who spends all
29:46
Speaker 5: of her income on court fees because she's you know,
29:51
Speaker 5: through the court system with her the family, family and
29:54
Speaker 5: criminal court system with her perpetrator. So she hasn't got
29:57
Speaker 5: the funds to and he's still monitoring her, but she
30:02
Speaker 5: has got the funds too, So it's a it's a
30:06
Speaker 5: big problem.
30:07
Speaker 3: Yeah.
30:08
Speaker 1: And also I mean then you throw into that the
30:12
Speaker 1: terror and the sleepless nights and the anxiety, I mean obviously,
30:17
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's just like it's multi layered. There are
30:21
Speaker 1: so many I would imagine, there are so many variables
30:24
Speaker 1: to this, and yeah, and that's right the I would imagine,
30:31
Speaker 1: which is no poor reflection.
30:32
Speaker 2: On the police.
30:33
Speaker 1: But firstly, they're under resource in every state in Australia,
30:37
Speaker 1: I feel like, definitely in Victoria. And it's it's where
30:43
Speaker 1: do you start with this, because there's no this is
30:47
Speaker 1: you know, if somebody's punching someone in the face, it's
30:50
Speaker 1: it's immediate, Oh, there's a policeman or woman there, we
30:53
Speaker 1: can deal with it.
30:54
Speaker 2: You know, here's somebody, you know.
30:55
Speaker 1: But with stuff like this, there's no there's not even
30:59
Speaker 1: a kind of quick fix, a complicated slow fix.
31:04
Speaker 5: I would think, well, and we need to move away
31:07
Speaker 5: from the idea of responding to an incident, so which
31:12
Speaker 5: is what you know, Like a couple has a fight,
31:17
Speaker 5: someone gets physical or violent, the police respond to that incident.
31:22
Speaker 5: So we need to be responding to the pattern of
31:25
Speaker 5: behavior because sometimes you know, and it's complicated and there's
31:33
Speaker 5: you know, there's there's situational couple violence where you know,
31:40
Speaker 5: there's actually no coercive control happening in that relationship, but
31:43
Speaker 5: both parties got had a few too many to drink
31:45
Speaker 5: and they've had an incident, but they don't but there's
31:48
Speaker 5: no ongoing controlling behavior. So you know, that's it's difficult
31:54
Speaker 5: for police to when they respond to a call out.
31:57
Speaker 5: Are they responding to just a situational couple's violence incident
32:01
Speaker 5: or are they are they stepping into you know, a
32:06
Speaker 5: complex issue of control across the whole relationship.
32:11
Speaker 8: So yeah, it's can I ask, And I know it's
32:16
Speaker 8: it's baby steps in it's early days and you've just
32:19
Speaker 8: kind of you've just put the key in the car
32:22
Speaker 8: and you're just hitting second gear on the bloody academic.
32:26
Speaker 1: Highway, right, I know, that, But so can you tell
32:30
Speaker 1: us what you do know now that you didn't, Like,
32:34
Speaker 1: has there been any outcomes? What is your research and
32:38
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be conclusive or extrapolated across all
32:42
Speaker 1: kind of spectrums, but like, what can you tell us
32:46
Speaker 1: that you now know that you didn't you know a
32:48
Speaker 1: year and a half ago.
32:50
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, from a systems thinking perspective, we I did
32:54
Speaker 5: my literature review involved having a look. We were looking
32:57
Speaker 5: at factors that influence tech facilitated abuse and what we
33:02
Speaker 5: found applying systems thinking frameworks, what we found was a
33:07
Speaker 5: lot of the research or most of the research has
33:10
Speaker 5: identified factors that influence the behavior at the we call
33:14
Speaker 5: it the lower levels of the system. So it's kind
33:17
Speaker 5: of like at that perpetrator victim interface. So they're looking
33:22
Speaker 5: at attachment issues or personality traits and things like that.
33:26
Speaker 5: So the most or a lot of the literature is
33:30
Speaker 5: looking at those lower levels, and those factors really are
33:36
Speaker 5: pertaining to behaviors or characteristics of individuals.
33:41
Speaker 3: But there was very little.
33:43
Speaker 5: As far as the higher levels, you know, so policing,
33:51
Speaker 5: you know, policy, government, all of those higher levels of
33:53
Speaker 5: the system. There wasn't a lot of factors relating to
33:57
Speaker 5: those higher levels, and the ones that did that we're
34:00
Speaker 5: sitting at those higher levels really related more to responses.
34:04
Speaker 3: So I was I was wanting.
34:06
Speaker 5: To look at what enables the abuse, but what we
34:11
Speaker 5: found was anything at the higher.
34:12
Speaker 3: Levels of the system was really it was the lack.
34:15
Speaker 5: Of response or the inadequate responses that was enabling the
34:19
Speaker 5: abuse to continue.
34:21
Speaker 3: So that's why my PhD kind of after.
34:24
Speaker 5: That literature review and we realized that that was when
34:27
Speaker 5: we realized we really need to look at how we
34:29
Speaker 5: are responding from a systemic because we already know a
34:33
Speaker 5: lot around you know, attachment issues, you know, you know,
34:39
Speaker 5: childhood history, family of origin, history of violence, and you know,
34:44
Speaker 5: we know quite a lot around that, but we don't
34:48
Speaker 5: know very much at.
34:49
Speaker 3: All around.
34:52
Speaker 5: How the how the current responses are actually creating more
35:00
Speaker 5: opportunity for abuse to occur.
35:03
Speaker 2: Is there a.
35:06
Speaker 1: Is there a clear line between just someone who's really
35:10
Speaker 1: fucking annoying and texts and doesn't read the signs and
35:14
Speaker 1: you know, thirteen messages a day. It's not threatening particularly,
35:17
Speaker 1: it's not intimidating per se, but it's just really fucking
35:21
Speaker 1: unwanted and annoying, and like what qualifies as coercive control,
35:30
Speaker 1: Like is it is it like there's a particular threat
35:34
Speaker 1: or demand or is there some kind of line that
35:40
Speaker 1: is crossed?
35:41
Speaker 3: So coercive control is and like, I'm really grateful.
35:48
Speaker 5: For the changes in legislation, and I know that it's
35:51
Speaker 5: difficult to police, and there's a lot of people that
35:53
Speaker 5: are saying, you know, what's the point. The point for
35:57
Speaker 5: me is people are talking about it, and there are
36:00
Speaker 5: a lot of people that now understand or at least
36:02
Speaker 5: asking the question, what is coercive control or you know,
36:06
Speaker 5: because they've never even heard the term before. So the
36:08
Speaker 5: definition of it, and that the definition varies, as is
36:13
Speaker 5: often the case, but it's a pattern of behaviors that
36:18
Speaker 5: is designed to dominate or control another person. So one
36:26
Speaker 5: of the or two of the key elements to cours
36:31
Speaker 5: of control is understanding intent and harm. So there are
36:37
Speaker 5: behaviors that are a little bit controlling, you know, and
36:42
Speaker 5: especially when you look at young people in relationships and
36:44
Speaker 5: they've got these find my Friends apps and you know
36:46
Speaker 5: they're tracking each other. Those behaviors can be quite innocuous.
36:53
Speaker 5: But it's intent, it's the intention of controlling, and it's
36:59
Speaker 5: the harm that is being caused. So you can't talk
37:04
Speaker 5: about coursive control without talking about intent and harm.
37:08
Speaker 2: Mmmm. Wow? And do you where?
37:16
Speaker 1: Who do you sit down with? How do you like?
37:18
Speaker 1: Are people forthcoming for your research? Are people putting up
37:21
Speaker 1: their hand and saying? Do people want to talk about it?
37:25
Speaker 1: Are people comfortable? Uncomfortable? Is it all done? I guess
37:28
Speaker 1: it's all done anonymously for obvious reasons. But are you
37:33
Speaker 1: finding it easy to get you know, people for your research?
37:37
Speaker 3: Yeah?
37:37
Speaker 5: So, because we're looking at systemic responses. I'm not like,
37:42
Speaker 5: I'm not looking at the psychological side of coercive control,
37:45
Speaker 5: and I'm not looking into, you know, individual behaviors and
37:52
Speaker 5: traits and characteristics. We're really focusing on responses. So we're
37:57
Speaker 5: really focusing on the systems perspective.
38:01
Speaker 3: Of the responses.
38:02
Speaker 5: So I have had I was really surprised at the
38:08
Speaker 5: response that I got.
38:09
Speaker 3: And what I have found is that the women that
38:14
Speaker 3: I've spoken to have had so coersive.
38:19
Speaker 5: One of the impacts of coercive control is really feeling
38:22
Speaker 5: completely isolated, helpless, defeated. You know that you have no
38:31
Speaker 5: control of your life because someone else has taken control.
38:34
Speaker 5: So the feedback that I've gotten from a huge percentage
38:39
Speaker 5: of the women that I've spoken to is they're more
38:42
Speaker 5: than happy to participate in the research because it gives
38:46
Speaker 5: them a.
38:47
Speaker 3: Sense of.
38:50
Speaker 2: The validation being heard.
38:52
Speaker 3: And being heard. But also, you know, one of the questions.
38:55
Speaker 5: I ask is what advice would you give women in
38:58
Speaker 5: the future who are seeking help for tech facilitated abuse
39:02
Speaker 5: and so they're they're having a voice and helping a
39:05
Speaker 5: problem that they felt helpless in. So because I was
39:11
Speaker 5: really concerned, you know, as I should be as a researcher,
39:17
Speaker 5: I wanted to make sure that the conversations I was
39:20
Speaker 5: having was not going to retraumatize anybody. But what I
39:24
Speaker 5: have found is that it is actually giving people a
39:28
Speaker 5: sense of control over the whole situation because they're contributing
39:35
Speaker 5: to making it a change, you know, so which also
39:40
Speaker 5: puts a little bit of pressure on the researcher. But
39:42
Speaker 5: I think, not that I need to fix the problem
39:44
Speaker 5: for them, but it means that what I'm doing matters
39:47
Speaker 5: and it has meaning, and you know, if I can
39:50
Speaker 5: if we can make even a small difference to how
39:55
Speaker 5: we respond, then that's good.
39:59
Speaker 1: Would part of the I'm just thinking now about, you know,
40:04
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you so what's the solution.
40:06
Speaker 1: Obviously that's a dumb question, but moving towards like how
40:09
Speaker 1: do we address this practically systems thinking I get it, well,
40:14
Speaker 1: kind of get it. Thanks for teaching me. But in
40:17
Speaker 1: terms of moving towards something, which is where we're hopefully
40:22
Speaker 1: shining a little bit of a light in the darkness
40:24
Speaker 1: of all of this that gives some people hope and
40:27
Speaker 1: some people answers or protection or do you have anything
40:31
Speaker 1: in the back of your head? And I know this
40:33
Speaker 1: is probably getting ahead of where you are right now,
40:35
Speaker 1: but I don't mean this in terms of your research,
40:39
Speaker 1: but just you as a researcher, thinking what would you
40:43
Speaker 1: like to see happen potentially in the future that might
40:48
Speaker 1: help the probably thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds maybe of
40:53
Speaker 1: people in Australia and beyond who are dealing with this.
40:57
Speaker 2: Like is there anything.
41:00
Speaker 1: Like such like you surely you've thought about well maybe,
41:05
Speaker 1: But it's like when I'm talking about stuff like, for example,
41:09
Speaker 1: with metabception, metaaccuracy, metacognition is realizing that most people you know,
41:13
Speaker 1: so in my stuff, I'm thinking, all right, well, most
41:15
Speaker 1: people don't understand how other people think. Most people don't
41:18
Speaker 1: understand what they're like to be around most people, you know,
41:22
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and then I so identify that and
41:24
Speaker 1: I go, well, what's what's some what's not what's the answer,
41:27
Speaker 1: but what's something that we could do to maybe move the.
41:29
Speaker 2: Needle on this?
41:31
Speaker 1: How how do I approach this where it might create
41:35
Speaker 1: some kind of positive impact regarding this issue in this
41:38
Speaker 1: place with these people. And I know you're far away
41:42
Speaker 1: from that, and I think this is a very complicated thing.
41:47
Speaker 1: It needs to be dealt with, so I don't have
41:50
Speaker 1: to have a question in there, but maybe you've got
41:52
Speaker 1: some thoughts.
41:53
Speaker 5: Well from a system sew perspective, we don't know yet,
41:57
Speaker 5: but what we are going to do is take the
42:00
Speaker 5: We'll be developing like a almost like an aggregated journey
42:04
Speaker 5: map of the experiences of a victim survivor while seeking help,
42:10
Speaker 5: and then we're then we'll be doing some so the
42:12
Speaker 5: next three studies after that will be actually interactive workshops
42:15
Speaker 5: with stakeholders, so you know, police, legal professionals, digital software developers,
42:23
Speaker 5: you know, any even telecommunications companies because you know they
42:27
Speaker 5: play a big part in as well. So we'll be
42:30
Speaker 5: taking the journey map to them and then we want
42:32
Speaker 5: to have a look, and we'll be applying some systems
42:34
Speaker 5: thinking methods and frameworks, and you know, after two or
42:37
Speaker 5: three more studies, we'll be developing some recommendations for interventions.
42:44
Speaker 3: Across the system, right, right, So there's that.
42:48
Speaker 5: I don't know what they will be yet because we
42:50
Speaker 5: don't know where the leverage points are yet. So that's
42:55
Speaker 5: I'm excited to kind of move through that because it's
42:57
Speaker 5: it's a it's an approach that's not been applied by
43:00
Speaker 5: for so I'm hoping that some new novel kind of
43:03
Speaker 5: interventions and some new ideas come out of that. So
43:06
Speaker 5: there's that as far as because there's responses, and then
43:10
Speaker 5: there's addressing the issue you know, primary primary intervention at
43:18
Speaker 5: changing attitudes and you know, teaching young people healthy relationships
43:23
Speaker 5: and things like that.
43:25
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's I think there's.
43:27
Speaker 5: A lot being done in that space already. It's a
43:33
Speaker 5: public health campaign really.
43:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:37
Speaker 1: I feel like also, and remember everyone, this is just
43:41
Speaker 1: a chat, and I have thrown Nicole under the bus.
43:47
Speaker 2: Yeah what pressure? What pressure?
43:50
Speaker 7: No?
43:50
Speaker 1: But I think also you know, like obviously your research
43:53
Speaker 1: has focused on in relationships, but also we see you know,
43:58
Speaker 1: tech tech facility abuse in the workplace.
44:02
Speaker 2: We see it in.
44:05
Speaker 1: Like I reckon, I know, I don't know how many
44:09
Speaker 1: I'm guessing, but maybe twenty people who are no longer
44:11
Speaker 1: on either any social media or one particular platform because
44:16
Speaker 1: they just got so much abuse, so much hate, and
44:20
Speaker 1: they were so fearful, they were so anxious, there was
44:22
Speaker 1: so much negative shit around that they just got off.
44:26
Speaker 1: And and you know, for some of them, it actually
44:30
Speaker 1: is in their interest to have a social media presence
44:33
Speaker 1: because of their business or because of their career or whatever,
44:37
Speaker 1: but they're not doing it because it's just when you do,
44:41
Speaker 1: you do a cost benefit analysis, like it just ain't
44:44
Speaker 1: worth it, like the emotional and psychological cost of being
44:47
Speaker 1: on social media for some people. You know, it's just
44:52
Speaker 1: and so I think it's like, yes, obviously specific to
44:56
Speaker 1: your research intimate couples, but it's something that.
45:00
Speaker 2: Is I think.
45:02
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just going to expand because technology is growing,
45:05
Speaker 1: the eye is growing. I mean, I wonder you know
45:07
Speaker 1: all the stuff, all the different forms of abuse that
45:10
Speaker 1: are going to you know, present themselves over the next
45:14
Speaker 1: year or ten that come by way of artificial intelligence,
45:19
Speaker 1: like being able to manipulate and control and influence and
45:24
Speaker 1: terrify people using greater and greater in inverted commas.
45:29
Speaker 2: You know technology well, and one.
45:32
Speaker 3: Of the things that really concerns me personally.
45:37
Speaker 5: Is AI is like we we feed AI, right, So
45:44
Speaker 5: AI is based on is a virtual world, based on
45:48
Speaker 5: our physical world, and we have and we are completely imperfect,
45:55
Speaker 5: you know, we have we live in a patriarchal society.
45:59
Speaker 5: We have you know, there's gender biases, there's all of this.
46:04
Speaker 3: Stuff is being fed into AI.
46:07
Speaker 5: And so outputs AI outputs will have those biases built in.
46:14
Speaker 3: So you know that's a concern.
46:17
Speaker 5: So you know, like there's so many layers to this
46:21
Speaker 5: that you know, and you know, you can't talk about
46:24
Speaker 5: course of control and intimate partner vance without talking about
46:28
Speaker 5: gender based violence because it is a gendered issue. It
46:33
Speaker 5: is a gender issue, and you know, I've had this
46:37
Speaker 5: argument with so many people that is it really though, well, yes,
46:42
Speaker 5: actually is you just have to look at the statistics. Yes,
46:48
Speaker 5: so AI is AI concerns me in that regard, So
46:52
Speaker 5: you know, we can be all we can be doing
46:53
Speaker 5: all of this stuff over here as researchers and coming
46:56
Speaker 5: up with interventions and trying to change attitudes.
46:59
Speaker 3: But if AI horses already bolted.
47:01
Speaker 5: With AI, then no amount of changing attitudes here is
47:05
Speaker 5: really going to We're always going to be behind the april.
47:09
Speaker 3: So that behinds me.
47:11
Speaker 2: Do you think part of well, I don't know.
47:15
Speaker 1: I feel like and this is different to intimate relationships,
47:19
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of the abuse, the abuse
47:21
Speaker 1: is you know, rampant, because people can do it to
47:26
Speaker 1: an extent anonymously, right, they can do it, you know,
47:30
Speaker 1: they can, you know, and some people do it you know, openly,
47:35
Speaker 1: But there are so many people that are hateful and
47:38
Speaker 1: hurtful and fucking evil, use fake names and all of
47:43
Speaker 1: that stuff because you know, there's no and then like
47:47
Speaker 1: it's really not even worth the time and effort for
47:50
Speaker 1: unless they're committing a crime. You know, who's going to
47:54
Speaker 1: do anything about that? Because it's just such an overwhelm
47:57
Speaker 1: of that. You know, It's like that happens billions of
48:01
Speaker 1: times a day around the world.
48:03
Speaker 2: So where do you even begin to address that stuff?
48:06
Speaker 5: I mean, well, this is where, you know, one of
48:09
Speaker 5: the one of the principles of systems thinking is safety
48:15
Speaker 5: because systems thinking, you know, a lot of the frameworks
48:18
Speaker 5: we're designed for safety, So we do a lot of
48:21
Speaker 5: safety research around you know, aviation safety, rail of us,
48:25
Speaker 5: crossing safety and that sort of thing. So we've just
48:27
Speaker 5: kind of moved it over to personal safety. But one
48:32
Speaker 5: of the tenants is that safety is a shared responsibility.
48:37
Speaker 5: So every single player in the system, from the tech
48:42
Speaker 5: companies to the software to the social media companies, everyone
48:48
Speaker 5: has a shared responsibility for safety.
48:53
Speaker 1: So that I think that's theoretically, but how the fuck
48:57
Speaker 1: do you endorse that?
48:58
Speaker 2: How do you? I mean, I'm with you, but good
49:00
Speaker 2: luck in that.
49:01
Speaker 3: Real mean, And that's the challenge.
49:03
Speaker 5: That's the challenge, and that's where we that's where I'm
49:06
Speaker 5: hoping to find some you know, effective leverage points across
49:11
Speaker 5: the system where we can kind of pull in some
49:14
Speaker 5: of those stakeholders to accept the shared responsibility, yeah, exand
49:20
Speaker 5: that they have responsibility or policies or laws or you know,
49:24
Speaker 5: legislation put in place so that the responsibility is shared.
49:31
Speaker 1: I think, so try to interrupt I think, like with
49:34
Speaker 1: a lot of these things, even with a lot of
49:38
Speaker 1: the I don't even want to mention what it is,
49:40
Speaker 1: but like a lot of the ship that we're seeing,
49:42
Speaker 1: a lot of the crimes that we're seeing in and
49:44
Speaker 1: around Melbourne, I'm sure it happens in Queensland, like like
49:49
Speaker 1: violence with all groups on, Like there's no real consequences,
49:53
Speaker 1: Like people are committing crime after crime after crime after crime,
49:57
Speaker 1: and they're not going to jail. And I think one
50:00
Speaker 1: of the challenges is that, well, when people can do
50:03
Speaker 1: heinous shit and they're not really penalized, you know, then
50:11
Speaker 1: their life has not changed dramatically. There they do something horrible,
50:15
Speaker 1: something hurtful, hateful, evil, and then depending on what it is,
50:20
Speaker 1: you know, they're just given a slap on the wrist,
50:22
Speaker 1: if that at all, and then there's no there's no
50:25
Speaker 1: real deterrence for some of this stuff.
50:27
Speaker 2: Obviously this is different. And it's like, well, you know,
50:34
Speaker 2: like I've had.
50:36
Speaker 1: You know, nothing horrendous, but well yeah, I've had people
50:39
Speaker 1: send me emails and messages that are like really fucking horrendous,
50:45
Speaker 1: like you know, like which I won't elaborate on here,
50:48
Speaker 1: but it's like, oh, and I mean, firstly, it's quite
50:53
Speaker 1: hateful and hurtful. Secondly, I think what's going on in
50:58
Speaker 1: this person's head that they take the time and find
51:02
Speaker 1: the energy to send me this person they've never met,
51:05
Speaker 1: this thing based.
51:06
Speaker 2: On It's like, wow, what is curious? Around that. But
51:11
Speaker 2: then you go, oh, what do I do? And it's like, well,
51:14
Speaker 2: what the fuck can you do?
51:15
Speaker 5: It's like yeah, yeah, But then it's I guess it's
51:20
Speaker 5: the it's knowing or not knowing if a threat comes
51:28
Speaker 5: to you via some electronic means like an email or
51:31
Speaker 5: a Facebook message or something like that, where is this person?
51:35
Speaker 5: Like are they outside the front door? Or are they
51:38
Speaker 5: in another state or are they in another country?
51:40
Speaker 3: Like it can be frightening, Oh for sure, yeah, and
51:48
Speaker 3: I mean this.
51:50
Speaker 2: With complete compassion. And then I think about more vulnerable people,
51:55
Speaker 2: women and children. I'm talking more physically vulnerable, Like that's
52:00
Speaker 2: got to be fucking terrifying.
52:03
Speaker 3: Yeah.
52:03
Speaker 1: Like I'm a big al fora male, and there's ship
52:05
Speaker 1: that still scares me. And I'm like, wow, I think
52:09
Speaker 1: about my mum, who's forty five kilos and five foot
52:14
Speaker 1: you know.
52:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so.
52:20
Speaker 1: Well, well, it's it's an ongoing kind of unfolding lesson,
52:24
Speaker 1: isn't it. It's like we're still figuring out what the
52:28
Speaker 1: what the real problem, what the potential not solutions but
52:32
Speaker 1: perhaps strategies moving towards some.
52:34
Speaker 2: Kind of I don't know that we'll ever solve it.
52:37
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's.
52:38
Speaker 1: The right phrase, but or the right kind of you
52:42
Speaker 1: know word, but definitely moving towards dealing with it practically
52:47
Speaker 1: and alleviating some of the pain.
52:49
Speaker 2: Maybe.
52:49
Speaker 3: Yeah.
52:50
Speaker 5: Well, and just to give you an example, and this
52:53
Speaker 5: is what these are. These are the things that really
52:55
Speaker 5: shocked me is things like robovacs, a robot vacuum cleaner. Yeah,
53:06
Speaker 5: can be used, has been used as a spy.
53:12
Speaker 3: Where listening device.
53:16
Speaker 5: Knowing I knew who you were talking to on the
53:18
Speaker 5: phone last night, how did you know?
53:20
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter, you don't know. Weeks later down the.
53:23
Speaker 5: Track you work out that it's the robovac following because
53:26
Speaker 5: it's following you around the house because the perpetrator's got
53:30
Speaker 5: it on remote control cameras in the house being taken
53:34
Speaker 5: over remotely, laptop's being taken over remotely. It's like, it
53:40
Speaker 5: is insidious the things that people.
53:44
Speaker 3: Have to deal with.
53:45
Speaker 5: And you know, if you're if you're someone who's running
53:49
Speaker 5: a business.
53:50
Speaker 3: You can't afford to be without your devices.
53:52
Speaker 5: You can't afford to be you know, without your internet
53:55
Speaker 5: access or your or whatever.
53:57
Speaker 3: So some of.
53:59
Speaker 5: These women have just learned to live knowing that they're
54:03
Speaker 5: constantly being monitored by an ex partner and just trying
54:07
Speaker 5: to do the best that they can to minimize that,
54:13
Speaker 5: knowing that he could turn up anywhere at any time.
54:17
Speaker 1: So yeah, there are a couple of solutions that come
54:19
Speaker 1: to mind for me, but they're not they're not particularly legal.
54:22
Speaker 1: So I was that is that was interesting. Congratulations on
54:30
Speaker 1: the research that you're doing. Thanks for shining a light
54:33
Speaker 1: on that.
54:34
Speaker 2: And if you're.
54:35
Speaker 1: Listening, I know we didn't really fix or change or
54:38
Speaker 1: solve anything, but I think we opened an important conversational door.
54:43
Speaker 2: And I think the more that we.
54:44
Speaker 1: Talk about this and think about this, and you know,
54:48
Speaker 1: while it's not I wish it wasn't happening. I wish
54:50
Speaker 1: it wasn't a thing in our culture. I wish it
54:53
Speaker 1: wasn't a thing in our society. But wishing doesn't make
54:56
Speaker 1: it so. And so you know, it's good that we
55:00
Speaker 1: we have these hard conversations about these hard topics and
55:03
Speaker 1: at the very least we increase a little bit of awareness.
55:06
Speaker 1: And do you need any more participants for your research?
55:12
Speaker 2: Can? Do you want people to reach out? Yep? So
55:15
Speaker 2: tell them how to do that.
55:16
Speaker 5: So they can email me at Nicole dot Liddell L
55:23
Speaker 5: I double l at research dot USC dot edu dot
55:30
Speaker 5: au and I'll send them a link. So basically, to
55:35
Speaker 5: meet the criteria for the study, you need to be
55:39
Speaker 5: living or not necessarily living in Queensland, but have experienced
55:44
Speaker 5: tech facilitated course of control and sort help from Queensland services.
55:51
Speaker 5: And for people's safety, we request that they consider themselves
55:57
Speaker 5: to no longer be part be in that relation. So
56:01
Speaker 5: you know, it might be that they're still in co
56:04
Speaker 5: parenting or something like that, but I just to minimize
56:09
Speaker 5: people's risks if they can be if they consider themselves
56:13
Speaker 5: being no longer in that relationship.
56:15
Speaker 3: But they need to have sought help, so we need
56:17
Speaker 3: to get.
56:17
Speaker 5: Some information around their help seeking. So yes, they can
56:22
Speaker 5: email me there. The other thing I was going to
56:27
Speaker 5: suggest to people is if this has opened up kind
56:30
Speaker 5: of like what do they want to know more about
56:33
Speaker 5: this entire problem? I just listened to an audio book.
56:37
Speaker 5: Can I give someone else a plug and just listen
56:40
Speaker 5: to Jess Hill's audio books See What.
56:43
Speaker 3: You Made Me Do?
56:44
Speaker 5: And she's an investigative journalist, She's been in this space
56:48
Speaker 5: for a long time and she really gives a really good,
56:52
Speaker 5: in depth understanding of the problem of domestic.
56:57
Speaker 3: Abuse in Australia.
57:01
Speaker 5: So if if you're keen for that, that's a really
57:04
Speaker 5: good listen, we'll read great.
57:07
Speaker 2: What's that? Just give us the name of the book,
57:09
Speaker 2: See What You Made Me.
57:10
Speaker 3: Do, See What You Made Me Do? By Jess Hill.
57:13
Speaker 2: That's a very clever name, isn't it.
57:15
Speaker 1: Like as soon as you said that title, I knew exactly.
57:19
Speaker 2: What that was going to be about.
57:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we appreciate you. I think I'm going to
57:26
Speaker 1: see you in a few.
57:27
Speaker 2: Days on the goal.
57:28
Speaker 3: I'll be there.
57:29
Speaker 2: You'd be good.
57:30
Speaker 1: I'll see in a few and well it's two it's
57:33
Speaker 1: forty eight hours.
57:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's too right? Oh my godday.
57:38
Speaker 2: We'll see you in a couple of days with a
57:40
Speaker 2: few others.
57:41
Speaker 1: And we appreciate you as always, and congrats with what
57:45
Speaker 1: you're doing and good luck with your research and all
57:48
Speaker 1: the stuff moving forward.
57:49
Speaker 2: Thanks next.
57:51
Speaker 3: So yeah,