Latest / King Dems Podcast | Growth Mindset, Leadership, AI and Business Insights / How Founders Scale Profits Without Burning Cash | Harvard MBA, ex-McKinsey: Nick Jain

Transcript

How Founders Scale Profits Without Burning Cash | Harvard MBA, ex-McKinsey: Nick Jain · King Dems Podcast | Growth Mindset, Leadership, AI and Business Insights

0:00
I think the philosophy behind scaling boils down to really two
0:02
things. Number one, do you have a good
0:04
business model? And by that I mean, do you
0:06
create value for someone, right? If you're serving food, you
0:09
know, let's imagine you're running a restaurant.
0:11
You read value for someone by making them happy because they
0:14
get a great meal at your restaurant.
0:15
If you make a great shirt, it needs to fit your customer.
0:18
If you make software, your customer needs to like using
0:20
your software to make their life easier.
0:22
If you make a video game, the video games got to be fun.
0:24
So that's number one. Your product needs to create
0:26
value for someone in the ecosystem, right?
0:29
It needs for whoever your customers that that's the first
0:31
thing. If you don't create value, the
0:32
bigger you get, the worse off you are making everyone else in
0:35
the world. And #2 is that your internal
0:38
operations need to be designed to work well as you get bigger.
0:41
Lots of companies have a great product or great service, but
0:44
they have not set themselves up internally to scale beyond just
0:47
being a small company. So you really have to think
0:49
about how do I engineer the inside of my company, the way
0:52
people work, the systems they use, the technology, the data,
0:55
so that we can continue to grow. Before we dive back into today's
0:58
conversation, I want to share something important.
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partnership with Better Help and I encourage you to take that
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first step. If you've been thinking about
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it, sometimes the best investment you can make these in
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yourself. We are live, ladies and
2:13
gentlemen, we once again welcome to the Kingdom's podcast and
2:17
Diary of a CFO. And today I've got with me a
2:20
cheapo VIP fights in Autofila Delfield United States of
2:25
America Mac Walker Nick of Eagle Rock 10.
2:32
And we're not. Sure, because my whole name yet
2:35
but. Where the action begins The
2:38
referee. The Octagon is Donald Trump.
2:41
Are you ready? I'm ready.
2:44
Well, let's, let's, let's give you your flowers.
2:48
So ladies and gentlemen, Nick Jade is not just a typical
2:52
finance guest. He is a Habit MBA, a former
2:55
McKinsey consultant, a former private equity investor, a turn
2:59
around CEO and CFO who has killed multiple companies beyond
3:03
$100 million. He has rebuilt broken
3:06
businesses, his lifted profits, you know from 10% to 35%.
3:13
He has transformed product culture, revenue engines and
3:17
decision systems with surgical precision.
3:21
Today, Elites Eagle Rock CFO Services helping founders in the
3:25
5 to 50 million revenue range run elite level finance systems
3:31
without the Fortune 500 price tag.
3:33
He describes himself as someone who likes hard problems and
3:38
clears answers. This conversation is with
3:41
founders, operators and leaders who want sharper thinking,
3:44
stronger margins and better decisions.
3:47
Ladies and gentlemen, once again welcome Nick Jane to the
3:50
Kingdom's pocket. How are you, Sir?
3:53
I'm doing great and thank you so much for the very kind and
3:57
illustrious introduction. Wow, wow, wow.
4:01
They call me the king of interest.
4:02
You're you're right to global top 2% in the world for a
4:06
reason. And of course, yeah, it's good
4:09
to have the best of the best. You know, one, yes.
4:14
Described me as a modern day business philosopher.
4:17
So as a modern day business philosopher, I have that
4:20
responsibility of gathering the best and the brightest minds of
4:24
my time, of my era, you know, documents.
4:28
The third leadership. And of course, you know, in
4:30
audience we say if it was not documented, it was not done.
4:33
So don't hate the player, I hate the game.
4:36
Let's tell your origin story. You actually trained in the
4:39
mathematics and physics. And of course, you earned an MBA
4:42
from Harvard and entered private equity and consulted.
4:46
What Ellie believed about decision making shapes how you
4:51
applied as a CFO and as ACEO. Your background is actually
4:57
mathematics and physics, right? And of course, you've got that
5:00
MBA. You had to have it.
5:02
And of course, you got into private equity, you got into
5:04
consulting. But what was it early on that
5:07
made you make that decision to get into the world of finance?
5:12
And of course, like what philosophies do you have that
5:15
still guide your decision making today?
5:18
Sure. So it's, look, even as a child I
5:23
really cared about kind of two things, understanding how things
5:26
worked #1 and #2 quantifying them, right?
5:31
I was the guy who, you know, when you're walking along the
5:33
sidewalk, counting the number of breaks in the sidewalk to figure
5:37
out, hey, to each one we're walking 10 metres, each one is
5:39
half a metre apart. That means that they are 20
5:42
tiles in the sidewalk. I always wanted to understand
5:45
how fast balls dropped, why they bounced, how does the TV work?
5:49
Right. I disassembled my first TV when
5:51
I was 12 years old. So that worked and continued on
5:54
in college where as you met, where as you mentioned, I
5:56
studied math and physics. And the cool thing is I
5:58
realised, you know, sometime in college that companies are in
6:02
some ways like big machines, OK, They have rules that make them
6:06
work. They need to like not just from
6:08
the financial side, but there's ways that they work internally
6:10
in terms of culture. And these things.
6:12
If you can think of them as a system or machine, you can
6:15
understand how they work well and how to create a lot of
6:17
value. And that's what I did, you know,
6:19
trained in early my career in private equity.
6:21
Private equity firms are really good at generally making the
6:24
companies they own more valuable through better operations,
6:27
better expansion, helping them grow.
6:29
And that's really what I've done throughout my career.
6:31
Think of companies as machines or as things that fall, and
6:35
maybe not machines, but things that have rules that have laws
6:38
that they follow. And if you're good at
6:40
understanding those laws, then you're really good at making the
6:43
the machine better, the company better.
6:45
And that can be true. I run a shoe company and a
6:47
trucking company and a software company, and each has different
6:50
rules to the game. But at the end of the day, they
6:52
still all follow certain rules and principles that if you're
6:55
good at figuring them out, you can do a great job at improving
6:57
those companies. So you were actually served as a
7:03
turn around CFO and the CEO across trucking software
7:08
e-commerce and that includes businesses that have scaled past
7:12
the $100 million Mac. So what the most found is
7:16
misunderstand about the philosophy behind scaling.
7:23
Sure. I think the philosophy behind
7:25
scaling boils down to really two things.
7:27
Number one, do you have a good business model?
7:29
And by that I mean, do you create value for someone, right.
7:32
If you're serving food, you know, let's imagine you're
7:34
running a restaurant. You read value for someone by
7:37
making them happy because they get a great meal at your
7:39
restaurant. If you make a great shirt, it
7:41
needs to fit your customer. If you make software, your
7:43
customer needs to like using your software to make their life
7:45
easier. If you make a video game, the
7:47
video games got to be fun. So that's number one.
7:49
Your product needs to create value for someone in the
7:52
ecosystem, right? It needs for whoever your
7:53
customers that that's the first thing.
7:55
If you don't create value, the bigger you get, the worse off
7:58
you are making everyone else in the world.
7:59
And #2 is that your internal operations need to be designed
8:04
to work well as you get bigger. Lots of companies have a great
8:06
product or great service, but they have not set themselves up
8:09
internally to scale beyond just being a small company.
8:12
So you really have to think about how do I engineer the
8:15
inside of my company, the way people work, the systems they
8:17
use, the technology, the data, so that we can continue to grow.
8:23
Growth hacking right there. So you actually spent years in
8:27
private equity and of course, institutional investing.
8:30
What do professional investors see inside businesses that
8:35
founders often ignore until it's too late?
8:41
I think professional investors, so I think the biggest
8:43
difference between founders and professional investors is
8:46
founders tend to have a great vision, right?
8:48
They're the ones who built the company, have often made them,
8:50
you know, very, very successful companies, professional.
8:53
But the founders have really only been in that one company
8:56
for most of their career. They haven't looked around and
8:58
seen in what it's like other companies are like and what good
9:00
looks like. They may have a great product
9:02
team, but they don't know what great looks like on a finance
9:04
team or HR or marketing, right? They're just used to seeing what
9:07
they're seeing. Professional investors on the
9:10
other hand, have looked across hundreds or thousands of
9:12
companies and they can say, look, McDonald's may be great at
9:14
marketing, but Taco Bell may be great at social media and
9:17
Wendy's may be great at Square Burgers, right?
9:20
So you need to, what professional investors do really
9:23
well is taking the best stuff from different circumstances
9:25
that they've seen and then try and implement the best of all of
9:28
those things at one company. So it's not just good product,
9:31
but good it can be, has to be good at marketing, good at
9:33
running HR, good at running finance, good at running
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manufacturing, etcetera. Wow, that actually feels like
9:40
the work we did, we do in audit, you know, you are auditing
9:45
different entities and of course you you're getting the knowledge
9:49
across the board and that actually puts you in a position
9:52
where and you understand how things operate across different
9:56
ecosystems, different industries, different entities,
9:59
right. And you're able to provide well
10:03
informed advisory to the operators, to the management, to
10:08
the leadership of, you know, businesses.
10:11
But you know, many founders actually think that they
10:13
understand cash flows because they review the reports.
10:16
And there's something I'm fond of seeing revenues, vanity
10:20
profits of sanity of cash is king.
10:22
Cash is reality. So in your view, what is the
10:26
difference between looking at the numbers and actually
10:29
possessing financial intelligence?
10:34
Between looking at the numbers and doing what?
10:36
Sorry. And having financial
10:39
intelligence. Sure.
10:41
So look, finance, like understanding finance and
10:45
business is a skill and an art or a science, no different than
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let's say, painting or being a doctor of physics.
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It's a skill, right? Everyone knows how to add and
10:54
subtract. You learned that in high school.
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But not everyone can master understanding what the numbers
10:59
mean, right? Everyone knows you know what
11:01
blood looks like, but a doctor understands how to save your
11:04
life in a way that at least I don't, right.
11:06
So being good at finance and thinking about business
11:09
optimization is a learned skill and it's a practise skill.
11:12
You can learn a little bit from books, you can learn a little
11:14
bit from experience. You can do learn it a little bit
11:16
from doing, but it is a skill and a lot of businesses often
11:19
don't, they haven't hired someone who has that skill.
11:22
And The funny thing is they don't know what good looks like,
11:25
right? Because they haven't seen like a
11:27
world class CFO the way they, or world class COO or see chief
11:30
human resource officer the way it would run at a billion dollar
11:33
company, because that's often not where they started.
11:36
And you often don't get to experience that working with
11:38
those people till you're, you know, very, very late in your
11:40
career. And so that's why it's really
11:42
important for a kind of smaller and mid sized companies to think
11:45
about the fact that no matter how smart I am, number one, I
11:48
can't do it all and #2 I may not have an area of expertise in
11:53
finance or marketing or whatever it is.
11:55
And so I should hire someone who does?
11:59
Interested and, you know, incomes the fractional CFOs.
12:05
So you often speak about small businesses blind blind on cash
12:09
flow. Why does this happen even in
12:11
companies generating millions of revenue?
12:13
And what are the early one in science leaders should never
12:17
ignore? Sure.
12:21
So I think there's two or three things that are different that
12:24
people miss about cash flows #1 is that profit is not
12:28
necessarily equal to cash flow. And this is particularly
12:31
important in working capital businesses like retailers or
12:36
manufacturers or shippers. That's number one.
12:39
Number two is there are aspects of cash flow that are sorry and
12:44
#2 is you have to think about reinvesting in your business and
12:46
maintaining your business. So a lot of businesses, they
12:49
require you to keep putting money into them to repair, let's
12:52
say, your factory or to buy more inventory.
12:54
And a lot of companies don't think about that.
12:55
But hey, even though I'm profitable, I got to take a
12:58
large portion of those profits and reinvested in the business.
13:01
That's typically called your reinvestment rate.
13:03
And #3 you have to think about, I started this business by
13:06
taking money from somewhere. It could have been for my
13:08
savings. It could have been from venture
13:09
capital, it could have been from banks.
13:11
And at some point, I got to pay those guys back.
13:13
And that's going to take away from my cash flows too.
13:15
So how do I think about that as well?
13:21
Well, so ideally, you know, no decision that a company's made
13:25
emotionally, whether you're hiring someone, whether you're
13:27
firing someone, whether you're selling a customer, those
13:29
decisions, nothing should be made emotionally, right?
13:31
Emotions are for your personal life, ideally not your
13:34
professional life, because the moment you start making
13:36
emotions, decisions emotionally, you're not necessarily doing the
13:39
right thing. You're reacting quickly.
13:40
So I think the biggest thing that founders or CE OS or
13:44
executives, it doesn't have, it can be really any titles, it can
13:46
be junior people as well. Is think about number one is why
13:51
is this? Why is what I'm doing good for
13:54
my organisation? Just ask yourself this.
13:56
I actually have a little piece of paper on my computer that
13:58
says is this good for my organisation #2 is think about
14:02
the risks of the decision you're making.
14:04
And some risks are OK, some risks are not.
14:06
And #3 ask yourself, did I actually do any quantification?
14:11
Did I spend 30 seconds doing some math here?
14:14
Because if you didn't spend 30 seconds doing some math, you're
14:16
probably making an emotional judgement.
14:18
And a very simple example is if you're hiring someone and you're
14:21
going to pay them $50,000 a year, ask yourself, they're
14:24
going to cost me $50,000 a year. Are they going to make me
14:27
$55,000 a year more in profit? If the answer is no, it's a bad
14:31
decision. And you just have to spend that
14:33
30 seconds doing very, very simple math sometimes to make
14:35
sure that you're thinking about this rigorously and not
14:38
emotionally. Interesting.
14:42
The numbers always have to add up.
14:44
So fractional CFO versus full time CFO.
14:49
You're actually frequently asked when do you hire a fractional
14:55
CFO or what time is a full time CFO resourceful for a company?
15:05
What practical thresholds do you use to advise founders when
15:10
making the school? Sure.
15:14
So I'll start by giving a preface and then I'll answer
15:17
your question directly. So a lot of people use the title
15:19
CFO to mean different things. And a lot of companies as CFO's
15:22
just the person who's managing your accounting and cash flows.
15:25
And that is not usually a ACFO that's a treasure or controller,
15:29
even if they he or she has the title of Chief Financial
15:32
Officer. A good CFO does 4 things.
15:34
They handle, they manage accounting, they manage cash,
15:38
that's called treasury. They manage FP and a financial
15:41
planning analysis, which is thinking about the future.
15:43
And #4 they manage the capital structure, re business, debt,
15:46
equity financing, etcetera. So good CFO needs to be able to
15:50
do all of those four things. And I think that a business is,
15:53
if they're ready to hire a full time CFO when two things are
15:56
true, number one, they actually need all four of those aspects
15:59
to run their business. For example, if they're thinking
16:01
about debt or equity or if they're thinking about future
16:03
forecasting, they need acfo #2 is when they're willing to hire
16:08
somebody who's really good. So the problem in the CFO market
16:11
is you have a lot of people that you can kind of get cheaply, but
16:14
they're really controllers and treasurers and they're not true
16:16
chief financial officers. True chief financial officers
16:19
tend to be very, very expensive people because they may cost you
16:22
a half $1,000,000, but they're going to generate $510,000,000
16:24
of profit for you and they know that, so they charge more money.
16:27
So I think the the second thing is when you are, when you are
16:30
ready to hire CFO, don't get some, don't full time CFO, don't
16:34
go cheap. Get somebody really good who
16:37
understands all four aspects of their job and can create value
16:41
in all four aspects. If you're not, you're basically
16:43
paying, you know, money for a very expensive accountant.
16:45
And accountants are great. That's a part of that's part of
16:48
running businesses, but it's not sufficient to be ACFO.
16:51
It's only one out of four things that a great full time CFO needs
16:54
to be able to do. Interesting.
16:58
So you actually talk about the Fortune 500 pay books for $10
17:02
million companies. So you suggest that smaller
17:06
companies kind of don't be company operates and systems.
17:10
Which systems actually transfer well and which ones become
17:14
bureaucratic? Sure.
17:17
I think the systems that transfer well number one are
17:20
many of the same technology. So needing ACRM, for example,
17:23
for your sales and marketing team, needing an ERP for your or
17:27
start an accounting system for your accounting, like using
17:30
enterprise grade technologies, which are now very affordable
17:33
for small businesses. You can get them for, you know,
17:36
10 to $20.00 a month for all these systems nowadays for.
17:39
So that's number one, make sure you get a lot, a lot of the same
17:42
technologies because they're very, very affordable for really
17:45
any business that's making more than $1,000,000 revenue a year
17:48
#2 is data systems, right? Any good business needs data
17:52
systems. You can use whatever fancy word
17:54
you want, data lakes, data warehouses, CSV files, but you
17:58
need some sort of system to store the data of your
18:01
organisation in a way that other people around your organisation
18:04
can access it, Think about it, analyse it and look at, hey,
18:06
what happened and what could happen.
18:09
And then the third system that I think a lot of small businesses
18:12
can copy is how to manage people effectively.
18:15
This includes the hiring, the promotion, the management and
18:18
the termination of employees. I think that there's right ways
18:21
to do it. These are well researched ways
18:23
that you can read from publications, from PhDs.
18:26
You can see them in the internal memos that have been leaked of
18:29
like large companies. But there is a right way to
18:31
manage human capital. And you don't have to reinvent
18:34
how to do hiring right? Like a funny way to, you know,
18:37
I'll give a, a practical example.
18:39
The wrong way to do hiring, and this has been known for about 30
18:42
or 40 years now, is to interview someone and just ask them.
18:45
Tell me about your resume. Tell me about your five year
18:47
goals. That has 0 predictive value.
18:50
There's no value to doing that interview.
18:51
You wait wasted half an hour of the interview each time and 1/2
18:53
an hour of your time. The right way instead is to ask
18:57
that give them a technical quiz number one on their the subject
19:01
matter of their job. So you know, for an accountant,
19:02
ask them accounting questions and make rank them based on the
19:05
actual technical skills they show.
19:07
And #2 ask them to solve a real problem.
19:10
And that can be, it's called a case study method.
19:13
So you ask them to solve a real problem relevant to their job in
19:15
real time in front of you or as a piece of homework.
19:18
And that shows a level of critical thinking and ingenuity
19:22
that the typical tell me about your, you know, the last 20
19:25
years, your resume and why you studied English or math or
19:27
accounting doesn't do at all. And yet most businesses still do
19:32
what's called the unstructured fit interview, even though it's
19:35
not actually predictive at all. And this has been known for 40
19:38
years. It's, it's, it's really crazy
19:41
how recruitment methods differ across board, right?
19:47
But you definitely need to test the skill set.
19:51
But that there is a philosophy I have on this podcast.
19:54
It's called mindset skill set, tool set.
19:57
That is when you're hiring people, when you're
19:59
collaborating people, you need to find a way to evaluate their
20:02
mindsets, then the skill set and of course the tool set.
20:05
I'd like for you to speak to that framework.
20:09
That is the mindset, the skill set, tool set framework.
20:13
In the course of hiring. Yeah, I like that I'm, you know,
20:18
much more about just, I think, mindset.
20:21
Most people, you know who show up to work tend to be reasonably
20:24
positive human beings, otherwise they wouldn't have survived in
20:27
the real world. So a lot of, you know, my
20:29
assessment when I hire people is, do you have the technical
20:32
skill set #1 and do you have the willingness to solve and ability
20:37
to solve novel problems? Because every problem you
20:40
encounter, almost every problem you encounter in life is novel.
20:42
It's new and you need to have to figure out how to go solve it
20:45
yourself without your boss needing to tell you how to do it
20:47
every single day. Yeah, very important.
20:51
We need people, critical thinking skills and problem
20:54
solving skills. You actually have so much
20:59
experience and in terms of the technology it helps with
21:06
decision making. I has actually come to stay.
21:10
So before we let you go, I'd like for you to touch on what
21:14
you think AI is going to influence in terms of the
21:19
business landscape in the shorts to medium term.
21:23
Sure. So AI is here to stay.
21:25
And there's I think there's three types of users, OK, Number
21:29
one are people who are using it primarily as a chatbot and
21:32
there's a research tool. So tell me about Pokémon or tell
21:35
me about the oil industry, Nigeria.
21:38
So people use it as a research tool and primarily as a chat.
21:40
But that's level 1. Level 2 are people who are using
21:44
AI tools to do work. So you let's say take a general
21:48
purpose AI tool like Claude Code or something like that and use
21:51
it to do work for you, write documents, build models, send
21:54
emails, etcetera. That's kind of level 2 And Level
21:57
3 are people who are building agents that autonomously work
22:00
without the human interacting and being in the loop at all or
22:03
very minimally in the loop. So the humans not chatting with
22:05
the robot, the robot is out there doing things people level
22:09
1 is not so useful anymore. Everyone can pull up chat sheet
22:12
to your Gemini or Claude on their browser and go do stuff on
22:16
it. The value is being created by
22:18
the employees, whether junior senior who can do work at level
22:21
2 and Level 3. I, for example, I think my I'm
22:24
mostly at the level 2 level right now where almost anything
22:27
I do, whether I'm writing emails, whether I'm creating
22:29
code, whether I am creating Excel models is being done by AI
22:34
now autonomously. So I'll type something in, it'll
22:37
go create the the actual work for me and it'll iterate on.
22:40
It'll if populated with real data and more importantly it
22:43
will think about the quality of what it put out.
22:47
So in the background, for example, I have a Claude code
22:50
building a, an analytics tool for me.
22:53
And it built it like to several hours ago.
22:55
But now it's thinking about, hey, how is this actually good
22:57
enough for what we needed to do? And the answer it came to is no.
23:00
So it's just repeatedly fixing it over and over and over again.
23:03
And I'm not involved at all. I'll come back at sometime like
23:05
3 or 4 PM today and it'll, it'll have hopefully a pretty good
23:08
product for me. Oh wow, I love that.
23:11
I love that. But a couple of what I see
23:14
websites have actually banned me from using AI agents.
23:17
I'm like what? Like this guy should wake up.
23:20
I'm not going to mention, but then I've been banned for using
23:22
AI agents. But that's just what I'll say.
23:25
So let's put you through the Ring of Fire. 5 questions, quick
23:31
answers, and we'll call it a wrap.
23:33
Number one, what is 1 financial metric for every founder must
23:37
check weekly. One Financial metric every
23:41
founder must check weekly. Gross margin, what is the
23:47
increment? What is the margin on the actual
23:49
stuff you're selling? Interesting #2 What is the
23:53
biggest money mistake you see? Smart founders repeat.
23:56
Not understanding how to read all three of their financial
23:59
statements. My interest and stuff.
24:02
So what is the best decision you have ever made on the pressure?
24:07
To not make a decision right there and to come back in 24
24:11
hours when I wasn't under pressure because I made terrible
24:14
decisions under pressure. So I'm thinking the fact that I
24:16
realised I was spread, the fact I was stressed out, I'm going to
24:20
make a bad decision and was said like no, I'm going to come back
24:23
in 24 hours. I'll tell you a.
24:26
Joking. Seriously, that's the best
24:27
decision I made under pressure. I once went to a club in the UK
24:32
and I saw reaching on the wall. Bad decisions make good stories.
24:38
So #4 #4 what is one book that has shaped your philosophy about
24:45
leadership? How to Win Friends and Influence
24:48
People by Dale Carnegie. It's a very old book, 100 years
24:51
old. That wasn't very fair.
24:52
It just teaches you something very simple about like how
24:54
people. Think I love.
24:57
That a little. Bit about human nature which I
25:00
liked. OK final question, what is 1
25:03
belief founders buzz delete if they want a skill.
25:08
Well that's hard. I think The Dark Side of
25:12
Valuation by Aswan Damodaran. It is a technical book on how
25:16
small, on how startups should get better and like.
25:20
It is not meant for established companies for but for hyper
25:22
growth small companies. OK, fantastic.
25:27
Like I love to say when a person shares the time with you, they
25:29
share their life with you because the SI unit for measure
25:31
in life this time. So thank you very much Mick Jane
25:34
today and of course, love and respect to you.
25:36
Do you want to leave a shout out to everyone before you leave?
25:38
Of course, from me it's goodbye. Yeah, just I would love if
25:42
people check out our business eaglerockcfo.com.
25:46
We are the I think the best analytics firm for small and
25:49
medium businesses and helping them make become more profitable
25:52
literally next month. OK, fantastic audience.
25:56
It's goodbye for me. Always go for something in your
25:58
life, conceive beliefs, try to thrive and achieve.
26:02
God bless. Thank you.