Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Seating | Todd Bracher | S8 E8
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:15:12 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ. With us today is Todd Bracher. Todd, welcome to the Future of XYZ. 00:00:15:14 - 00:00:17:21 Speaker 2 Thank you. Good to be here. 00:00:17:23 - 00:00:44:05 Speaker 1 we are going to be talking about the future of seating. you are a pretty renowned, industrial designer, a creative director, an author, a design advisor, an educator. If I did my research correctly, you got your undergraduate degree in industrial design at Pratt in Brooklyn, where you're now based with Studio Bracher as well. you got your masters and did a Fulbright scholarship in Copenhagen. 00:00:44:07 - 00:01:18:11 Speaker 1 before then spending about a, a decade, ten years or so in Europe, between Copenhagen and Milan and London and Paris. It seems like, you have gotten around a lot of the same cities as me, but even more, you have more than 200 products you brought to market, kind of going across different sectors, but a lot of furniture and seating, over two dozen patents, dozens of international design awards, including seven national design awards and nominations and three international designer of the year honors. 00:01:18:13 - 00:01:49:22 Speaker 1 plus wallpaper magazine, my favorite personally, named you a top 100 global design influencer. and we'll talk about it, but you're now the global creative director at Humanscale, which is the leading designer and manufacturer of ergonomic products for work, which was established in New York City in 1983. since we've gotten your bio light out of the way, I want to dive into the first question we always ask, which is in the context of this robust and impressive background. 00:01:49:22 - 00:01:56:05 Speaker 1 Todd and the context of the conversation today, how do we define seating? 00:01:56:07 - 00:02:18:09 Speaker 2 I mean, that's, that's a tough one. yeah. It's like saying, when did design start? You know, this is a conversation that I've had and it's very difficult to answer. how do I define seating? I, I guess you could say, because I'm an industrial designer, I think it has to be relative to scale and manufacturing. 00:02:18:09 - 00:02:40:23 Speaker 2 So I don't think just sitting on the floor is considered seating. I don't think sitting on a rock is considered seating. But I do think in the context of manufacturing something that, of course, supports the human body in a, relatively, relative to seating posture, but it's got to be in manufactured scale. I think that's when I start to say that’s seating. 00:02:41:00 - 00:03:04:12 Speaker 1 that's like the simplest pared down definition I could have imagined. you've designed, I mean, I guess, I guess I want to ask first out, like, is there in this realm of seating right. There are chairs, as you just mentioned. Like maybe a rock, unless it's, like, designed to be there by landscape architect or something. Right. 00:03:04:12 - 00:03:25:14 Speaker 1 Which is legit, and then manufactured to some degree or honed specifically for that. Whatever. But we think about chairs. But even within the category of seating, as you've just defined it, options range from like what you know very well at Humanscale, which is like ergonomic task chairs, which for the lay person is like what you consider your classic desk chair. 00:03:25:16 - 00:03:41:01 Speaker 1 But then there’s swivel chairs. There are sofas, benches, bar stools, stadium seating. I mean, it's all of it. what are the considerations given your long background here that must be given when you're designing all those different kinds of seating? 00:03:41:03 - 00:03:58:21 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think I think it's the right follow up because, the first question for me, it's a bit it's a bit of a humorous response that, you know, but I think ultimately when I consider, really what is seating? It's it's the first question is, well, what are we doing? I think. And, so I don't think you're just sitting. 00:03:58:21 - 00:04:25:09 Speaker 2 I think that doesn't happen without any real purpose. without any kind of context. You could be resting, but you could be reading. You could be working, you could be shopping. You could be having conversations, having dinner, watching, consuming. You know, there's a millions of things that could be happening. And I think when you start with understanding what's happening, then you start to understand, well, therefore, what type of seating is required, and seating is typically required when duration or repetition is involved. 00:04:25:09 - 00:04:50:09 Speaker 2 So I think, that that's the point you start to consider posture. And I think it becomes very, very interesting when you start to consider how a lounge chair or chaise versus a side chair versus a work chair and so on, you really start to see how posture relates to the activity and, and the experience. So reading a book in a chair versus reading a book in a, in a, let's say, a lounge or chaise, it's a very different experience. 00:04:50:09 - 00:05:01:10 Speaker 2 And which it's quite interesting that that's the case. So somehow, the body tends to find rest in different fashions. But again, it's to me related to the activity at hand. 00:05:01:12 - 00:05:23:22 Speaker 1 That's pretty fascinating. I mean, I want to come back to the material at hand soon enough. But as as we think about different contexts, I was kind of cracking myself up as I was researching because I, of course, like I think of Humanscale, and I think about it, office chair. I think about a dining chair. I think about, you know, like a lounge chair, a sofa, a bar stool, whatever the things I named before. 00:05:23:22 - 00:05:50:20 Speaker 1 I also think about, like the context for your purposes, you're thinking ergonomics, comfort, etc. but I was thinking also about like there's residential, which is what I've just named. Then there's like commercial and corporate, then there's like retail and hospitality, there's education, there's sporting events, you know, like big stadiums or there's their theaters, right? There's transportation like airplanes, even trains, whatever. 00:05:50:20 - 00:06:10:07 Speaker 1 Like all of these require those same considerations that you've just named. Like do you see briefs changing and evolving in seating right now or is because I think about, like my grandparents chairs that you inherit for dining and like, no one really wants to sit on those for the longest period of time, you know, like things have changed. 00:06:10:09 - 00:06:17:15 Speaker 1 It's like one of these categories are use cases more advanced than the other at this point? Are they all kind of evolving together either? 00:06:17:17 - 00:06:33:11 Speaker 2 You know, I think they're just sort of not evolving, which is sort of the irony of it. I find it sort of funny, kind of reminded me of this as a kid, I used to think it was weird that people would sit in what seems like a chair while they're driving a car, you know, and like, well, four people are in four chairs, we'll call it. 00:06:33:13 - 00:06:49:14 Speaker 2 And the car is going at, you know, 55 miles an hour or so on. And like, is that the experience of, of driving is sitting down in a chair or, and then it's the same in an airplane, like you don't feel like you're flying at all. You're just sitting in a chair. So I think there's some there's some curiosity there, like why it hasn't 00:06:49:14 - 00:07:08:20 Speaker 2 these things kind of evolved and I'm not sure what the answer is to it. And but there's so I don't think I feel like it's kind of stuck in the sort of known archetypes in a way. And, so I think there's some insights. I think, task seating or sort of this sort of office chair, we'll call it world. 00:07:08:20 - 00:07:26:02 Speaker 2 That's the most interesting type of seating to me because it's really, really looking out for, you know, believe it or not, there's some statistics around, I believe 78% or so of workplace injuries occur from folks sitting still. So isn't that kind of fascinating like nuts. 00:07:26:02 - 00:07:27:19 Speaker 1 And all of our health issues too? 00:07:27:21 - 00:07:50:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. So it's not like boxes falling over or some kind of crazy thing. It's just from sitting still and like what? What is sitting still mean? It means like your chair basically locks people into position. And, so the workplace world has discovered this and decided to make furniture to move. And I think that's kind of genius. And it helps and pivot, promote long term health. 00:07:50:07 - 00:08:12:04 Speaker 2 And of course, for for the labor force that's pretty critical for the productivity of a nation and so on. So it's, it's kind of all linked up. And I think, that's really where I think the eyeballs are on work chairs to really help make these the best possible chairs for people, whereas let's say the home or the car is kind of stuck in the archetype. 00:08:12:06 - 00:08:36:11 Speaker 1 it's like totally not something I thought about. So I love when that happens. Thanks for that. it seems then that you're in like the absolute perfect position being the global creative director at Humanscale, given that Humanscale is the the leader in ergonomic task chairs, and ergonomic furniture in general, you've been there since 2022 at the Humanscale Design Studio based in New York City. 00:08:36:13 - 00:09:08:09 Speaker 1 my understanding, and I've spent a lot of time since Humanscale, is the consistent winner of an iF Design award, and I've gotten to know some of your studio members over the years. it abides by this wonderful philosophy that good design achieves more with less with this fundamental commitment to ergonomics, but even more than that, to human and environmental sustainability, with an aim to create an overall net positive impact, which of course, is a more than carbon neutral, more than net zero is really actually giving back. 00:09:08:11 - 00:09:22:13 Speaker 1 These are big, bold, audacious goals. How do you see seating in such a way that social and environmental well-being are blended together or treated in equal measures? 00:09:22:15 - 00:09:40:04 Speaker 2 Well, that's it's a lot there. So there's two I'll sort of take two pieces of this. And so one is first of all, what do we what's the seating really mean. And like, what are we really dealing with here at Humanscale? And, we have the, the luxury or the fortune to have worked historically with Niels Diffrient. 00:09:40:06 - 00:09:59:21 Speaker 2 Niels Diffrient was sort of the last of the great, mid-century modern designers. he designed the original freedom chair for Humanscale, and he had this thesis that, you know, as good as the these, call them, task chairs were. And this was in the 90s, you know, you had underneath you have the ability to adjust your chair. 00:09:59:21 - 00:10:19:00 Speaker 2 You had these, knobs, levers, dials, all this kind of technology will call it around. The chair sounded amazing. Like you could really adapt a chair to any any body type you have. but he discovered that folks never knew how to adjust their chair, so it was too complicated. And, I mean, think about back to the car seat. 00:10:19:02 - 00:10:37:19 Speaker 2 I don't really know what is the perfect setting for me. And, and I'm not sure it works well because I can end up with a sore back after driving for a long time. So Niels figured this out, and he said, well, I'd like to make a chair, which he did, called freedom, which basically did away with all the controls and made the chair in such a way that you are the mechanism. 00:10:37:19 - 00:10:57:13 Speaker 2 And as you move in the chair, the chair will adapt automatically to you. And the beauty of it is, as I leave the chair and you sit in the chair probably half my size, and instantly adapts to you, you don't need to make any adjustments. So when Niels figured this out, and this is 26 years ago now, and, so all subsequent Humanscale chairs have been based on this intelligence. 00:10:57:13 - 00:11:16:19 Speaker 2 And, so it's a very, very smart way to think about it because you can provide all the ingredients for a recipe. But if you don't know how to cook with it, what good is it? And I think that's really what Niels cracked. And on the other side of it, unsustainability front. So, for example, the path chair, we, my studio, we did the path chair. 00:11:17:00 - 00:11:38:00 Speaker 2 I guess it was in, roughly 2020, I believe. And, so we're in that time frame and path was built on the back of Neil's intelligence. So the mechanism in these types of, thinking is the same in the path chair. But we had now the ability to make a chair that was truly in the next generation of sustainability. 00:11:38:02 - 00:12:06:07 Speaker 2 and this was based on ten years, 15 years or so of building resources, building supply chain, even material innovation with Humanscale so that we're able to actually create such thing because Bob, the founder of Humanscale, had this mandate that we we have to do what's right, not what's convenient, environmentally speaking. And and what we did was deliver a product that, as you said, was net positive, meaning the more the chair is actually in the world, the cleaner the world actually gets. 00:12:06:07 - 00:12:28:05 Speaker 2 And it's completely the inverse and such as trying to be neutral, you're trying to be positive. And and so to take such an initiative and means that we had designed the chair to pack down to be flat. I say it's in a pizza box. That chair's not quite a pizza box, but it's very flat. so transport costs are ridiculously lower, which also means we made the base of the chair flat for that very logic. 00:12:28:07 - 00:12:48:15 Speaker 2 so we can fit more in a container. and then we were careful to use, what we call ocean bound plastics. So ocean plastic, that's on. It's in the waterways on the way to the ocean gets reclaimed and is turned into the plastic components of the chair. we moved the the material to be a net so that we're using, 52 plastic bottles for every knitted cover for the chair. 00:12:48:15 - 00:13:04:21 Speaker 2 So that's also pulling that out of the out of the waterways and out of the world. We're using only recycled aluminum for the body. So there's no stainless steel. There's no chrome in the material. So in other words, you go on and on and on and you add up the good the chair is doing. It actually reverses the kind of impact it has on the world. 00:13:04:22 - 00:13:11:00 Speaker 2 It's kind of fascinating. So those two very important elements are what really creates a Humanscale product. 00:13:11:02 - 00:13:31:04 Speaker 1 It's amazing. Do you I mean, you're going to be biased because that is where you are. But you have your own studio. Studio. and in terms of like kind of the next generation of design excellence, since iF Design, which is the presenting partner of Future of XYZ is all about design excellence and impact. 00:13:31:06 - 00:13:47:00 Speaker 1 Like I see a real combination here, which is like, is this the future of design? Excellence is obviously has a positive impact, but is this where everything is going or is it where it should be going like? And are those two things overlapping at all yet? 00:13:47:02 - 00:14:08:02 Speaker 2 I think that's a great question. So okay, I learned a lot from studying Niels' work and seeing well, when I had this opportunity to do the path chair, it was very difficult and we needed to rely on, you know, ten folks at Humanscale. So it's not just me and my studio, and I'm this kind of wizard. 00:14:08:02 - 00:14:29:14 Speaker 2 It's. It's a lot of people, a lot of super smart people. And what that means is, I recall making some of the original photographs for the chair and I. You now, again, I'm the designer of the chair, and I remember saying to the engineers and everyone, I said, can you please strip apart the chair into its components? We're gonna take like a components photo and take out everything that we didn't design. 00:14:29:14 - 00:14:45:19 Speaker 2 So any parts that like we plot just like take them out so I can take a picture of stuff that we all design. And I come back and I see everything on the floor. Is there, and there's only a few screws that are on the side. And I thought, well, what about those parts? So I thought they might have been like metal parts and other things. 00:14:45:19 - 00:15:07:06 Speaker 2 And they're like, no, we we engineer and design and procure every single element of the chair except the screws. And I thought, oh my God, that doesn't happen anymore. Like design doesn't go to that extent. Design doesn't solve mechanisms. You know, you buy this stuff these days and which is what we're seeing with tariffs and why, like everything is so expensive in this country because we're most people buying components from around the world. 00:15:07:08 - 00:15:15:06 Speaker 1 And so it means that it's not to be it not to interrupt you, but it also means that there's very little that's differentiated it would seem. 00:15:15:06 - 00:15:35:01 Speaker 2 That’s exactly right. And you can't control the quality. You can't control its environmental impact. You don't know the sub supplier that's involved like so there's a lot of layers there. And but what I'm trying to call out here is that designers aren't really weaponized to really design like this anymore. They're mostly editing and they're mostly styling. and to be fair, there's a certain level of that's okay. 00:15:35:01 - 00:15:56:01 Speaker 2 If you have a partner such as Humanscale and others that can actually bring that muscle. But like Niels for example, he did the design like he did keep thinking. And and that's something that's not here anymore. And so I don't want to sound like the old guy that's kind of seeing things evolve. But but I don't think designers are able to really deliver at the level that I think we need to see. 00:15:56:03 - 00:16:19:04 Speaker 2 and then combined with that, I think the sustainability need, I think, is absolutely here to stay. there's Humanscale again has this approach called healthy materials. And folks don't know what that means. Well healthy materials is essentially if you go to the supermarket, for example, and you know, there's like aisles and aisles of food and in the back, on the left, there's a little organic food section. 00:16:19:06 - 00:16:41:05 Speaker 2 And, that's basically where Humanscale lives there on the, on that shelf. And they are the first to use no PVC in the material. There's no red list chemicals. I mean, you can make the list on and on. and it's technically actually healthy materials is what the products are made out of. And this shelf is only going to continue to grow because there's companies like Humanscale, Patagonia and others out there. 00:16:41:05 - 00:16:59:15 Speaker 2 Allbirds, they're developing these supply chains and have been very successful with them, that now they're becoming more in line for others to leverage. So I think as we move forward over the next ten years, I'd like to think that that healthy food section will be maybe 20% in the supermarket, but in 100 years it will be the supermarket. 00:16:59:15 - 00:17:06:15 Speaker 2 And I think that's, the trend we're on. So I'm hoping that design catches up to this demand for sustainability. 00:17:06:17 - 00:17:26:15 Speaker 1 Gosh, I hope so too. gosh, I hope so too. It would be nice because the more scale we get, the easier it becomes also, and the more affordable. So that's right. one of those other pillars is or a core tenant of Humanscale's guiding philosophy really is designing the future. So quick, quick round of answers. 00:17:26:20 - 00:17:33:19 Speaker 1 What does designing the future look like in seating? Specifically? 00:17:33:21 - 00:17:45:20 Speaker 2 Designing the future, I think, is about actually being as efficient as possible with solving the physiological problem of seating. 00:17:45:22 - 00:17:54:23 Speaker 1 I love that, I, I'm going to give you a tee up, I think, in this next one, what is the role of ergonomics? 00:17:55:00 - 00:18:12:08 Speaker 2 longevity. It's, it's no longer about, grip with and kind of arm reach, these kind of very mechanical mentalities. It's about, how it affects our long term wellness. And this is, I think, and there's a golden era of ergonomics in front of us. 00:18:12:10 - 00:18:20:16 Speaker 1 do you think that the open floor plan for work, is here to stay, or is it going to go back to some other siloed version? 00:18:20:18 - 00:18:32:09 Speaker 2 I think nothing's here to stay. I think, I’m in a siloed box right now, I think it tells you there's going to be versions of going backwards and versions of going forward that we haven't yet experienced. 00:18:32:11 - 00:18:49:15 Speaker 1 I want to come back to the sustainability topic. Priorities longevity, meaning like lifespan, right? Handing it down to another generations, repairability and materiality. Like, what's the other things that I didn't mention? What are the priorities in sustainability? 00:18:49:17 - 00:18:59:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think sustainably also retention, like things that you absolutely fall in love with that are built to last, that you'll keep in your life forever. I think that's another big part of sustainability. 00:18:59:19 - 00:19:08:23 Speaker 1 Is this simplicity movement, not only in design but also like the tiny house movement, coming for everyone. And how does that impact the future of seating? 00:19:09:00 - 00:19:32:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. the cultural I think having more and more choices in the world is and, and the, I should say, the, the demand from for people's money essentially I think it gets, it forces folks to be more selective, with more choice in the world. So I think ultimately we’ll arrive to a much more simple version of life. 00:19:32:10 - 00:20:11:15 Speaker 1 you've designed, I mean, you when you were in Europe, you were the creative director at George Jensen, Classic Formative Denmark. You've worked with Herman Miller, 3M, obviously Humanscale, a bunch of other, organizations and across respected brands across disciplines. And somehow, Todd, what I picked up from reading your bio multiple times is very interesting to me because this is a passion point I have, which is you are recognized for kind of consistently transforming innovative ideas into successful commercial products. 00:20:11:17 - 00:20:27:14 Speaker 1 How do you deliver and how do you convince your clients, moreover, that strategic differentiation and business success can come through design and and might necessarily have to come through design? 00:20:27:16 - 00:20:30:00 Speaker 2 I'll try to keep it to somewhat short answer. 00:20:30:01 - 00:20:32:17 Speaker 1 You can you can take your time on this one if you want. It's a big one. 00:20:32:19 - 00:20:54:22 Speaker 2 It's yeah, it's a, it's a big one. it's I have a way of working I call, design in context and, it's, the framework and the framework is essentially the way I explain it is, if I take you to a park and I show you a tree, I don't think you see the tree and say, you know what? 00:20:54:22 - 00:21:15:20 Speaker 2 I think it has too many leaves or it's a bit too green. Or maybe it should be wider. And I don't really think you see the tree this way. I think you see the tree and you just accept it. I think you recognize it's part of an ecosystem. I think you recognize there's a climate that has either has invasive species, it's getting the sunlight or enough rain, you name it. 00:21:15:20 - 00:21:38:03 Speaker 2 All these factors is why the tree is what it is. But then if I show you the new Tesla, I think you might say I don't like the color blue or it's the fender is not my whatever. And I think that's valid because the car tends to be, an opinion. So when I speak to business or when I and or any company to help in any way, I speak about the context and therefore design in context. 00:21:38:03 - 00:22:03:24 Speaker 2 So the ecosystem is what drives the solution. And if you take this tree and you put it into a different context, it won't survive. And if we tend to make solutions with the company and not understand the context, it doesn't survive. So I think this process helps to take abstraction out of design and helps really put all the governance of what drives success on the table, and it tends to be very cross-functional. 00:22:04:01 - 00:22:13:16 Speaker 2 And I think that ultimately is what helps businesses see, very clearly what the decision tree or decision process needs to be to get to the goals. 00:22:13:18 - 00:22:23:12 Speaker 1 how do you how does how do the resulting solutions avoid trend then? I mean, or also meet trend perhaps. 00:22:23:14 - 00:22:43:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. So there's sort of three core components to it. One is the human need, which is somewhat fundamental. that's somewhat universal. There's some cultural shift there. but number two, we'll call it, is, the business itself. So, like, what are your parameters of your business? What's your constraints, your, your resources, you name it. and then the third one is contemporary culture. 00:22:43:14 - 00:23:03:01 Speaker 2 And, because culture is an evolving thing and that's regional and so on. So understanding the culture is important. And when you start with those three sort of containers, you start to branch deeper into more refined fidelity of understanding. Then you have, captured what you need to be able to drive a solution. So I tend to not design anything. 00:23:03:03 - 00:23:10:03 Speaker 2 it's almost like designing in Microsoft Word, if that makes sense. And then the solution becomes somewhat inevitable. 00:23:10:05 - 00:23:17:00 Speaker 1 I love that. we can take that rest of that conversation offline, because I have a lot to say on that. 00:23:17:02 - 00:23:17:17 Speaker 2 Cool. 00:23:17:19 - 00:23:43:17 Speaker 1 They, I have a bunch of more questions in the short time we have. You just had a book last month come out, with Phaidon. first of all, congratulations. It's the first ever monograph of your work, so only a showcase of your work over the last 25 years by probably, I would argue, one of the, if not the most respected, one of the most respected, publishing houses for art and design in the world. 00:23:43:19 - 00:24:14:10 Speaker 1 it's called observations, Research and Design. you also had written a book in 2025 called Context Based Design, which is what you were just talking about, this framework you've developed. But, observations, research and design really looks at the last 25 years of your work through the lens of ideas, experiments and observations that underpin your practice, which, from my understanding, really kind of, merges, if you will, how observation or research translate into tangible design solutions. 00:24:14:12 - 00:24:20:10 Speaker 1 How do you think this applies specifically to the future of seating? 00:24:20:12 - 00:24:41:11 Speaker 2 I think that's an interesting conversation. I don't know how it does, but it somehow does. the way I look at observations is, you know, to design anything. I feel like anything I design, I don't know what it is. Right. And no matter what I'm designing. So I have to research it, but to research I need to observe, it is sort of the flow for me. 00:24:41:11 - 00:25:06:10 Speaker 2 So I start with just watching and just listening and just observing essentially. So it might mean conversation might mean experience. but I think for seating, I think that's the first thing we want to do is again, understand, let's look at things again, fresh, new eyes and start to see what do we not see before? And, and then from there, when you start to see some threads, you know, for example, there's new materials that might help. 00:25:06:10 - 00:25:22:19 Speaker 2 There's new, I remember seeing, for example, several years ago now, a colleague of mine working on a chair concept, and he had a way of how your arms rested on the arm pads, because why are arm pads so flat? And they don't actually hold your body? I never thought of this. And, like, it's kind of interesting, right? 00:25:22:19 - 00:25:39:07 Speaker 2 We get used to certain sort of patterns. So, so then you start to research into, well, what the heck are these things? And do we need to make this change or not? And so on. So when you start to go into that process, you then become somewhat expert in this in this topology. And then you can move into design. 00:25:39:07 - 00:25:45:07 Speaker 2 So I think really that type of a process can help lead to unlocking new discoveries, proceeding. 00:25:45:09 - 00:26:18:16 Speaker 1 I love that. you have a, a long standing history, obviously, in Europe, and there's lots of crossover between the US and Europe, or North America and Europe. and that's what your studio is known for, I gather. It's like, really like kind of this cross-cultural fluency. As the world, as the world has become more global, do you see any market differences between what we'd call Europe and America in terms of either seating preferences and or everything kind of moving towards a convergence in an esthetic and function? 00:26:18:18 - 00:26:38:12 Speaker 2 You know, it's an interesting one. In 2008, I remember I wrote a white paper around, I had just moved back to the US, from England at that point. And, and I remember I wrote a white paper to the furniture industry here, country furniture industry, whatever that means. And it was, here come the Europeans or some kind of European invasion or some kind of title like this. 00:26:38:14 - 00:27:01:04 Speaker 2 And as the markets, you know, tanked in 2008, I was certain that European designers will come this way to help find new opportunities. And so therefore, there's going to be a shift to a very contemporary design language in this country. And, iPhone just came out like there was like a lot of this push happening. And sure enough, it's what's happened in furniture. 00:27:01:06 - 00:27:25:12 Speaker 2 And, but I for some reason feel like it's reversing a little bit. Politics aside, I think that it contributes, but I think the ocean's gotten a little bit bigger again. And, so it's kind of more of a hunch, but I think we're actually going to take a little bit of a step back. I think, and so I'm not so sure what's ahead, but I do think there's some differences that will start to emerge. 00:27:25:12 - 00:27:36:23 Speaker 2 At one point it started to blend. but I think we're we've reached maximum blend, I think maybe 2 or 3 years ago. And I think it's starting to untangle a little bit. And, currently. 00:27:37:00 - 00:28:05:11 Speaker 1 I mean, obviously the EU specifically has certain environmental standards. Asia has very different ones, where a lot of things commercially, at a scale level, are made and manufactured. In North America. I know that there's the BIFMA, which is an optional test, which is from the Business and Institutional Furniture Manufacturers Association, and they're voluntary opt in, but very rigorous tests. 00:28:05:11 - 00:28:28:16 Speaker 1 If I've understood correctly, that simulate years of heavy daily use and really try to improve load bearing stability, safety, these kinds of things, you got it. Is this like how important is this in seating and and also is there an equivalent elsewhere in the world that's either more or less rigorous? Is there going to be some kind of convergence at some point? 00:28:28:16 - 00:28:47:17 Speaker 2 There also Ansi standards and EN standards like it's a lot around the world. And but I'm glad you brought this up. okay so I am an American designer, and I get a lot of, flak for American design. Why is it so chunky? Why is it so heavy? Why is it so kind of ugly? you know, and I know I have eyeballs, too. 00:28:47:17 - 00:29:13:07 Speaker 2 I see it, and BIFMA is a very major factor for why. And so this, of course, you know, there's certain load bearing that has to happen on the arm of a chair or tip tests and all kinds of things, kind of absurd tests and, you know, rumors were that it's a way to keep foreign, operators out of the country because it's they have to pass our kind of crazy standards. 00:29:13:07 - 00:29:31:05 Speaker 2 And therefore, these chairs don't. So they're not going to be allowed in and so on. I don't know what's true there. but that being said, it has shaped in, in my opinion, very negatively our space. having said that, some of my favorite designs in the world come from abroad. Wooden past performance. So they wouldn't even be here. 00:29:31:11 - 00:29:51:01 Speaker 2 And they're not here. so it does sort of separate the playing field a little bit. and it does kind of tie a designer's hand behind their back here, in my opinion. That said, it is safer, I get it. It's kind of, you know, designing for, you know, mitigation of risk. so it does. And, you know, you still just work with it and you do what you can. 00:29:51:01 - 00:30:08:06 Speaker 2 And I think we could still make pretty nice things within those constraints. But, but it does affect things. And, investment continues to always get more and more challenging and harder to pass to again, to, I think, keep players at bay. I assume. so it's a difficult parameter to work with and that's for sure. 00:30:08:08 - 00:30:38:15 Speaker 1 Interesting. Thanks for the honest answer. one last question before the very last question, Todd. Humanscale is moving more into kind of medical lab furniture. I know you also personally, it's a central theme of this book that just came out by Phaidon which is this science driven design philosophy which draws, as you said, on the research, but also on fields from biology and ergonomics, materials science, etc.. 00:30:38:17 - 00:31:00:22 Speaker 1 You also started, if I if I've understood correctly, something called Better Lab, which is a research and design hub, focused on this intersection between science and design. before the last question, which is always the same for everyone. tell us more about this conviction that the convergence of design science and strategy is really how we're going to solve the world's most complex challenges. 00:31:00:24 - 00:31:19:08 Speaker 2 I love this question. So, you know, it's nice. I've had this studio for 25 years, now 26. It's wonderful. but it is a service business. You know, I'm there to help folks. And a lot of the times, I've had many meetings where I say, you know, sustainability, x y z, and the client says, no, I'm not interested in doing the right thing. 00:31:19:08 - 00:31:43:22 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Well, what do I do now as the designer? Or do I just abandon the project? Do I, you know, do I just carry on like, it's a difficult spot? So it's not great to be in a service role all the time. And you try to really pick and choose, your dance partner, so to speak. But the idea of Better Lab came from what is it that I want to do and not wait for a client and, wait for their kind of great idea so I could actually start with my own. 00:31:43:24 - 00:31:59:03 Speaker 2 I had this fortune of working with 3M several other NASA folks I've known over the years. And, and I would always ask them kind of the usual question, like, so what keeps you up at night? You know, and, and they get these answers that I would think was crazy. And I remember one of them was like, would you believe it? 00:31:59:03 - 00:32:20:21 Speaker 2 A guy said, global pandemic. And I thought, oh, this guy's out of his mind. And, you know, and then two years later, we're designing, UVC lights with him that, were came from his technology from the space station. So, you know, all of a sudden, so and so I have this belief from chatting with all these types of scientists and people much smarter than me. 00:32:20:23 - 00:32:40:00 Speaker 2 you know, they have solutions for eye care, wound care, sanitization, for sustainability around water, like, just things that are just amazing. And I remember thinking like, why are these things not in the world? And they looked at me like, what do you mean? And they said, well, we have the patents. And that's it's our goal. And their patent portfolios. 00:32:40:00 - 00:32:42:17 Speaker 2 A lot of them, that's their compensation. It's how many patents. 00:32:42:19 - 00:32:44:01 Speaker 1 And the IP. 00:32:44:03 - 00:33:09:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I thought, well, why isn't this converting into a business? They’re like, what do you mean? You know, this kind of disconnect, you know, so I, I really believe most of the world's sort of major problems are maybe even solved. They're just sitting in a patent file, they're in a filing cabinet, they're in litigation or whatever, or worse, they're losing to, they might be in the world, but losing to, let's say, terrible, terrible solution, but a better design. 00:33:09:05 - 00:33:31:15 Speaker 2 And, and so I decided to start Better lab, which is where I partner with these technologists, these innovators, these scientists, and we bring to the world, things that we really believe at scale can help the planet be better off. And, so I bring design. They bring the science, and in some cases we co-create it, and then we look to get it out there. 00:33:31:18 - 00:33:41:15 Speaker 2 So we started with eye care for on kids, and we started around the germicidal light for hand sanitization and which has been incredible. It's been super fun. 00:33:41:17 - 00:33:45:17 Speaker 1 That's amazing. is there actually a physical better lab? 00:33:45:19 - 00:33:50:16 Speaker 2 it's my yeah, it's my studio, and I just shift, my change my hat, and we continue going. 00:33:50:20 - 00:33:52:07 Speaker 1 And you change the seating? 00:33:52:09 - 00:34:09:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. you know, Better lab. Like, I like the studio. I always love that, you know, we're we're about 22 people, but we're none of us are in the same room. And I always love that. And that's where I cherry pick the best people I could find in the planet. And wherever they are, they are. 00:34:09:13 - 00:34:12:23 Speaker 2 And that's how we work. And that's kind of the nature of better lab spirit, too. 00:34:13:00 - 00:34:27:20 Speaker 1 That's awesome. Okay, last question, Todd. same question for everyone. in 25 years. So say 2050 ish. What's your greatest hope for the future of seating? 00:34:27:21 - 00:34:48:21 Speaker 2 That's a really tough question. I think my greatest hope for the future of seating, I think, wouldn't it be amazing to have seating that can adapt to anyone's not just body, but their environment and their, like, whatever they want it to be? So somehow it's kind of, they can shapeshift in such a way that that it can take on any persona. 00:34:48:23 - 00:34:53:18 Speaker 1 I love that. So you really only need one chair because it it it can it can change with you. 00:34:53:20 - 00:34:55:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. It’d be kind of interesting. 00:34:55:16 - 00:35:09:05 Speaker 1 And be cool. Todd Bracher, thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ. This was a fascinating and fantastic conversation about a subject that most people probably are like, that's not interesting. So I love it. 00:35:09:07 - 00:35:11:10 Speaker 2 Thank you. Appreciate the time. 00:35:11:12 - 00:35:36:02 Speaker 1 for everyone watching, you can listen and subscribe anywhere you get your favorite podcasts. For anyone listening, make sure to leave us a five star review so other people can find it and subscribe to YouTube. You can follow Future of XYZ, and iF Design on your favorite social media channel, or visit ifdesign/xyz to get all links, show notes, and past episodes. 00:35:36:02 - 00:35:39:18 Speaker 1 We will see you again in two weeks. Todd, thank you again so much. 00:35:39:20 - 00:35:41:01 Speaker 2 Thank you.