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The Legacy of Hugh Hefner, Part 1 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Steffe
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told you a production of iHeart Radio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And today we have a very special episode. I know
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: when we have episodes with Bridget, and I feel like
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: this is a hint. We always talk about so many
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: things that we're always like, Okay, we have to come
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: back and we have to do an episode on it. Well,
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: today we are keeping our word and we have actually
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: brought back our fabulous friend. I feel like she is
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: an expert of all things like pop culture. I'm gonna
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: put that out there as part of your title. Bridget.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: I was say that we are actually coming on a
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: subject that we were like, yes, we need to talk
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: about it. So first and foremost, welcome Bridget.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm so excited to be back.
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: And this was like the last time I was chat
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: with you too, we were like, oh, we should talk
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: about this, and I'm happy that we are actually doing it.
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: I'm that it's actually here, it is, it's happening, we're
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: doing it.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: It was too big. We could not do this and
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: what we are talking about, we're talking about the infamy
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: and overall impact of who the legend who. I mean,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: we can't deny this of Hugh Hefner. So before we start,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: we're going to put this at the very top of content. Warning,
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: trigger warning, so many warnings, And I don't even know
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: if I'm going to put all of the things I
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: should be tagged in here, so maybe we'll have to
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: come back. But just be aware. We're going to talk
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: about rape, We're talking about exploitation, death, suicide, murder, grooming,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: drug use, trafficking, and even human trafficking. So I think
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of big conversations to be had just
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: you know, adult topics. So if you're listening to this
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, this is a great listen on
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: a ComUE while I'm going to pick up my kids
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: and you have your kids in the car, I would
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: probably pause.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: I would definitely pause.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Because it's going to be explicit. I do think the
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: lessons that have been left in the aftermath of Hugh
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Hefner and what he has done should be talked about
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: for generations of many marginalized people. I think it's a
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: big thing. And whether you want to call it a
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: warning label essentially, like you want to warn others about
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: practices like this, or whether you want to talk about
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: it as a historical context of how it really influenced us.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: This is a conversation to be had. So Bridget and
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: I have two different perspectives, right, I think we just
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: talked about this earlier.
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I agree that this is not the
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: episode to be in your car with the kids.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: But what's funny is that.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: So preparing for this episode was honestly almost like a
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: casthartic emotional personal experience. Because I don't know about y'all,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: but I watched the show Girls next Door on e
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: about what's going on on the Playboy mansion when I
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: was in junior high high school, and so what's interesting
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: to me is that that show took great pains to
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: make the playboy lifestyle look kind of like wholesome and
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: squeaky clean and fun for the whole family.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: So I don't think I was the.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: Only junior high or high school girl watching that show
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: as a youth. But now the conversation really kind of
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: looking back and being like, well, what was going on
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: in that house? That conversation is very mature and adults
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: and has very mature themes, but it's so interesting how
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: it was framed us wholesome and squeaky clean then and
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: now the actual reality is like, oh no, this was
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: not wholesome nor it could not have been less squeaky clean.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: And it's interesting going back and looking to see, like
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: how big of an impact that had on probably a
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: lot of.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Us, right, I agree with you. I will say, as
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I was going to ask this question to both of y'all,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: when did you learn about or have your first encounter
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: with Playboy magazine specifically or Playboy y'all? Did y'all ever
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: have one? Or what did you become aware of it?
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I have never encountered a Playboy magazine. I think that
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: I was aware of it, surprised to know one through
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: like pop culture of Hugh Heffner's appeared in a bunch
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: of like The Simpsons and things like that. I think
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: that was my knowledge of it, was that I was
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: aware that it was a big thing.
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: There are like multiple.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Instances of movies where women dress up as like Playboy bunnies.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I think that was much more. My realm of knowing
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: what Playboy and all about Hugh Hefner was his cameos,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: his multiple cameos he did in several things. And then
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: I mean it was it was just embedded in so
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: much of our pop culture for a while. So like
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I knew about it, but I never actually seen a
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Playboy magazine or anything like that. I just knew it
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: was a big deal, right right, Yeah, I think what
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: about you weregid?
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Similarly to Annie, I can't think of a I
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: can't conjure up a memory of me like holding a
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: Playboy magazine or stumbling across a Playboy magazine. But also
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: I can't think of a time when I was not
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: aware of it in the culture. And I think it
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: is such an interesting point Annie about the cameos on
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: family friendly shows and things like that. How and the
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: reference is how that creates a culture where it's commonplace,
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: where I can't even remember a time where it wasn't
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: something that was on my radar. But I yet I
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: have no idea the first time that it actually was
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: on my radar. It was just sort of always there.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Right Interestingly, like for me, I guess maybe coming from
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: South Korea, like literally being born and raised, I wasn't
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: really aware of all of that. I came into the
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: US and I knew porn existed, obviously, that was a thing.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I knew that there were probably there were magazines, and
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember when the big lawsuit happened in which, uh,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: they made all of those types of magazines be behind
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: like either dark or black plastic, because it was I
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: think in my lifetime. I'm pretty sure it was in
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: my lifetime.
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: I can confirm that it was because I have clear
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: memories of going into stores and being like, ooh, what's
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: that magazine right where they were.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: So stuff like that was fairly new, like at the point,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: like oh okay. But I also do remember I have
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: a very clear like, I don't think it was a
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Playboy magazine. I can't remember because I've now started to
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: use some of like things that I've seen on TVs,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: like is that my memory or is that? But I
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: do have a very clear memory of a friend of
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: mine when I was in i want to say, the
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: second or third grade, in which her dad, oh like
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: had a subscription to the pay per view channel of
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Playboy magazine, like specifically their channel, and like turning it
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: on because you know, when you're at like each other's house,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: you're doing naughty things. You're like, oh, well look at this,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: look what my dad and I was like officially scared
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: of the man after the fact, actually, but that has
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: a whole different thing of trauma for me. But like
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: he like it was there, it existed in our movie.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Were like, wow, people watch this because I came from
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: a very like conservative Christian home, so none of that
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: existed in my world. So to go to someone else's house.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: And by the way, he was a very revered doctor
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: in our town. I don't think I told anybody. I
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: was very good at keeping sick Cacus apparently. But anyway,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: but that was kind of like my first interaction of
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: what this was. And I was like, oh, and this
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: is when they were and we're going to talk a
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: little more about all the things started doing porn, which
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: they always denied was a thing for them, Like that's
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: something that they were like, Oh, we're not poor magazine.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: We are a a gentleman's magazine, which yes, we're going
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: to get into. But that's one of my first memories
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: of like, this is a big deal and what is
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: this and the level that they had, especially in a
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: man's world, and my view on the man the man
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: after seeing that, which is different conversation.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, so it's so funny that your first like
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: your first interaction with Playboy was actual like pornography that
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: was like watched on a channel that is like a
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: pornographic channel, because I don't think I could tell you
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: that I understood that Playboy produced pornography until quite a
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: bit later, like.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: In junior high.
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: I don't know if how it was in y'all's school,
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: but like you, people had the Playboy symbol on there,
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: like like girls walked around with the Playboy symbol on
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: their shirt. Right, it was it was a common thing
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: for the white girls to like tan and then like
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: I guess I don't know if they were like putting
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: like a cutout, it was a different to almost make
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: it look like a tattoo in their skin. And so
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: it was such a big part of the culture, but
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: yet removed from the pornography. And it's so funny that
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: for you it was like, oh it was my first
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: inner into action with it was like that's photography.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Leg and you're a dirty dude.
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: That's my memory.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so this is, as we've already said, we
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: are talking about the legacy of Hugh Hefner. When I
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: say legacy, we're putting this in like and all of
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: it's like good and bad. We're not talking about uh again.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: I think before, even in the last ten years, we
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: didn't even talk about him as a like a like
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: a bad dude essentially, like people really wanted to play
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: out his all these things that he did for society
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: and for our culture and not really talking about what
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: was happening in the depth of it and what he
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: was truly truly doing, like this is all so self serving.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: Oh my god.
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: So I know we're going to get to it, and
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: I don't want to derail us, but plus like plus
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: plus plus a thousand to that, and the thing that
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: I want to like, my opinion on the topic is,
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: I think that is very much with intention. I think that,
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: you know, when I That's one of the reasons why
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: I'm obsessed with reading the memoirs and listening to podcasts
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: of the women who were part of this orbit is
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: I think from the free speech crusades and racial justice
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: crusades and talking about sexual liberation and feminism to the
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: public pr culture image of like, oh, I'm a nice
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: grandpa in a robe and this is all very squeaky
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: clean and like it's all wholesome, I think all of
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: that was manufactured with intention for us the public to
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: not think about Hugh Hefner and his legacy in a
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: way that is frankly realistic to what it actually looked like.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: I think that, you know, and so I don't want
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: to make it seem like he didn't do.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: These things for free speech and racial equality. But when
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: people are talking about like, oh, it's complicated legacy, I
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: even think that doesn't get at what we're actually talking about,
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: which is using the dark arts of pr to us
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: secure wrongdoing, some of which is criminal, right, you know,
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: right right, And.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: I think we have to put this. I was saying
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: earlier that Bridget and I have kind of a two
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: different perspective because she has done the intellectual thing and
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: read all the things, while I went down the true
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: crowding level of watching the Secrets of Playboy or the
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Secrets of the Mansion on A and E. None of
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: this is a sponsor because I was like, all right,
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not gonna read books, but I'll watch this.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: But the amount of shock that I had watching this
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: and really like having to cleanse my soul after the
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: fact of like, oh, everything's the worst. So with all
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: of that, he has never been convicted of anything, So
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: we need to go ahead and put this here when
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: we were talking about this, we have to say that
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: all of this is alleged because nothing has been proved
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: in the court or any way like outside of these
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: people's experiences. So we are doing that. But you also
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: know here that we believe women in a story. So
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: all of that to say, we're trying to put like
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: trying to frame it in a of like, this is
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: what was told in these things, whether it's the memoir,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: whether it's biographies from whatever, or whether it is this documentary. Yes,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: at this point we have to say this alleged for
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: the documentary in itself. It was released after his death,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: and there are a lot of people who were very upset,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: and they're very upset at the women who are writing
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: writing these memoirs. Those moments out screaming at the TV
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: from some of the people defending Hugh Efner. So I
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: did have moments of me like you are full of
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: sh oh and I really don't.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: Like that, my God, like can we get it?
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: So like that is a thing that I both from
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: the memoirs and from what I've watched at the doc Like,
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: how many people, many of whom were like on the
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: doll or involved in some way, are like, how dare
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: these women try to tarnish his legacy?
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: And I just want to be like you would say
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: that you were being paid, you were part of this,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: Like you would say that right.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Part of this thing was like, Annie, you might not
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: want to watch. This is super gross.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I did get a text on Samantha that was like, oh,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: maybe don't do this, so I read about it.
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: I did the in between yat document.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: She researched in that way, she's like without having to
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: listen to everything that is happening according to because they
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: which the documentary itself, I have to go ahead and
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: put this in there. For the first few episodes, I
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is interesting because they did it
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: where they like had like playbacks or you know, reenactments.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: But then like towards the end of them, they had
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: a journalist who was on a Playboy as well come
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: in and do an actual sit down interview with people.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: So it was very like shocking, like the way they
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: decided to do it wasn't like an aftermath thing, like
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: she just sat and talked with different people about their
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: different experiences and it was an interesting dichotomy of how
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: they decided to do that documentary just on a like
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: overall review of the documentary.
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: So for people wondering I picked up on exactly what
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: you're talking about. There were like some editorial choices that
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh, interesting, okay, this is how we're
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: doing it, Like it is a little jarring.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: I guess how I felt.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was like, wait, okay, okay. But with that,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: we're going to do a very brief talk about who
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: he was. Who Hugh Hefner was, and he was actually
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: born April ninth, nineteen twenty six in Chicago to a
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: very conservative family which he talked about quite a lot,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: who had hopes of him being a missionary, which I
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: was like, huh, that's sounds about right. He served in
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: the military for a couple of years as a writer
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: of the military newspaper, so he's good at this. Went
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: to school at the University of Illinois at a Brno
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: champaign with a bachelor's in arts and in psychology and
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: creative writing and art. He worked as a copywriter for Esquire,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: which I was like, huh, but eventually left to start
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Playboy magazine, which he was going to originally name stag Party,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: which when I at hear things like that, when I'm
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: like the original idea, I was like, yeah, that was
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: not gonna work.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, stag Party.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: I'm glad you rebranded because stag Party is just not
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: a good name.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: It's not a good brand.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: That's such a different connotation too, like very like Playboy
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: is weird enough, but like stag Party is, like you're
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: excluding women altogether, So what's the point, right, But it's anyway,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: And it was published in nineteen fifty three, and I
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: think we actually had a recent conversation about this, right
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: when we were talking about the fact that the first
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: cover was featured Marilyn Monroe, who never actually consented or
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: approved of this.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: Yes, and she I would argue that, like she was
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: not appropriately compensated, like she had done a photo shoot
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: for a calendar company. The person who ran that calendar
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: company was like, Oh, nobody will ever see these photos.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: It's fine, you know she So she.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: Believed that Hugh Hefner then bought those images without her
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: consent and put them on the cover of Playboy, and
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: like that becave me big part of the Playboy empire.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: So I would actually argue that the entire legacy is
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: kind of has its foundation in trickery, coercion, and economic
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: exploitation of women's sexuality. You know, I don't begrudge anybody
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: who wants to take off their clothes and be photographed
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: for money, but I would not argue that Marilyn Nrue
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: was not properly compensated or could not consent to the
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: way that image would go on to be used. This
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: came up in the episode that we did around the
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: Lena image was a playboy model whose image went on
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: to like really.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: Shape the Internet.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: And I think we see this again and again with
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: like the foundation being the exploitation of women, right yeah.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: As in fact, in a biography dot com article, they
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: talk about how she was given fifty dollars too, and
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: she did this before all of her fame happened, because
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: she needed to do a car payment, supposedly, and she
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: was like, all right, as long as it's not gonna
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: show my face, it blurs my image out great. And
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: then this company bought it for nine hundred dollars, and
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: then Hefner came through and bought the rights with five
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: hundred dollars and then used it and like there's this
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: whole conversation about the fact that he had never met
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe, as in fact he alleges, and no one
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: has verified that he had a phone conversation with her
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: about it. Again, we don't know that for sure. And
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: also he bought the plot next to her grave, yeah,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: because he felt like he had some kind of I'm
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: going to say ownership of her. But more so his
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: refrain was like we have a connection.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: I read a quote of him talking about this and
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: he was like, this is a paraphrase, but something along
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: the lines of like I can't imagine anything sweeter than
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: an my asmitting my eternity resting on top of Marilyn Monroe.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Gross, I will say, I did not look into the fact.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Do we know did he actually do this?
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: Yes?
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: He is real. Yeah, that's been verifact.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I mean he buried like he's actually married, yes, Oh,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: or Marilyn Monroe, she's been so taken advantage of even
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: after death. Come on, leave Norma Jean alone anyway, Okay,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: but just other like little fact because I'm not doing
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: a big long thing if Hefner was arrested in nineteen
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: sixty three for promoting obscene literature, but the case ended
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: with a hung jury, so nothing happened with that. Hefner
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: eventually gave up the seat as being the face of
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Playboy to his son Cooper in twenty twelve, who, by
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: the way, is very loud about saying nothing of none
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: of this is true. All of these allegations aren't true
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: and unfounded. And I believe he has actually four children,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: two by his first wife he married before Playboy. I
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: believe he married before he went into military. And Cooper
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: wasn't one of those, but his daughter, Christie Hefner was
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: one of Like believe she was some kind of big
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: ceo or key player in the nineteen nineties.
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: Yes, like she shows up in his sort of protecting
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: his legacy.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Right when they originally brought her in, And like many
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: companies today, they were trying to show face as like, see,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: we're about women, we want to put women in leadership roles.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Here's my daughter. Look at her, who shut down many
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: things and mature women suffered allegedly.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: Allegedly put that in here.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: And then he died in twenty seventeen at the age
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: of ninety one. I mean, people celebrate him, and I
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: did find this article because all of the articles, if
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: you put Playboy now, it's all about these documentaries and memoirs,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: which I'm kind of glad about. But this was an
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: interesting rite of Hefner in twenty eleven, while he was
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: still alive, in The New York Times by Charles McGrath,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: titled How hef Got his Groove Back? Why They Got
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: to Still Things Anyway, it says Hefner is a little odd, certainly,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: but not a sleeves bag. He has none of Bob
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Guccione's oiliness or Larry Flint's leering vulgarity. His manner is
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: open and direct, and his language is as clean as
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: a Midwestern rotarians. By his own lights, having purged himself
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: of the shame and hypocrisy that is a part of
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: most Americans sexual baggage, he leaves a life that is
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: exceptionally honest and moral. It is also a life that
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: is exceptionally well documented. He has been written about so
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: often and for so long that in interviews now he
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: tends to recycle himself, saying the same things over and
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: over again, not in a bored wrote fashion, but as
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: if they had just occurred to him. He complains a
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: lot about America's puritanical, contradictory attitudes towards sex, and likes
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: to say that he is a quote, one eyed man
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: in a blind world. He also thinks that most men
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: would kill to be in his place. I feel like
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: the only true line to that is that last line.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Why don't even think that's true?
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: Because when you read, because when you read some of
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: these memoirs, it's like it actually doesn't sound that great
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: for anybody who was in that mansion. It's probably going
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: the best for helf Right, but it doesn't even sound
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: like it's great for him in some in some regards,
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: and I will say, like, you're so spot on that
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: this is all lies. And having read what some of
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: the women have to say about what it was like
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: to be required to have sex with him nightly, he
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: is not someone who sounds like he is free of
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: sexual baggage at all. Is not someone who is like
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: sexually free and like a libertine.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: If you read these accounts of what it.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: Was like to have sex with him and be required
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: to do so regularly for your room and board, he
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: sounds like somebody who had quite a few sexual hang
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: ups that were playing.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Out in the bedroom. So even that's not true.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: Even this, even this very carefully manufactured persona of how
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: he was as a lover or as a sexual person
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: is a house.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Of lies, right, article, they do say, because he talks
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: this is in the era of the Girl's next Door
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: and how it really did do a lot. Because I'm
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: with you, Ritchie, when you were talking about earlier, I
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: watched this thinking that it was a cute show. It
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is like the real housewife of
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: so and so like in this timeframe and really set
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: up these three playful girls who all like had different
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: characters to play, and then him in the background as
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: just being that wise old man taking care of his
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: girls literally, like that's what it seemed, and they all
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: made sure that it felt like they were all immature
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: and doing things and he was keeping them in line
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: or at least keeping them safe.
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: But he talks about the fact that what did these
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: girls get out of it, and he says a mentor
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: at one point, a friend, and then just the key
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: to success. So again, but that of course plays it
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: back onto the women.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: First of all, a mentor.
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: That's I don't that's so deeply insulting when you when
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: you read this the way that the women describe their
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: own experiences, that's just not true.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: You know, A key keys to success, I guess it's
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: when we were when I was like kind.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: Of preparing and thinking about this episode. That's something that
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: I'm really grappling with and I don't have the answer
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: there of Like a lot of these women, their association
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: with Playboy is what gave them public attention and public
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: profiles and platforms. So the question is, like, is that success?
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: Is that a successful life? Is that a full life?
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: If these women are happy, more power to them, that's great.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: But then you read these memoirs and many of them
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: did not sound happy. Many of them did not seem
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: to be happy with what was going on. And they
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: thread that runs from all of the memoirs that I
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: have read is like I didn't feel like I had
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: a lot of other options. I needed a place to live,
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: I needed money, whatever, whatever, And like I think it
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: comes down to, like, like what is success as defined
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: by our culture and defined by each and every one
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: of us. Like I don't know where I sort of
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: stand about like whether or not this was something that
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: was actually good.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: For these women.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's something I grapple with a
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: lot too. Is you know, for one, that there's no
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: he was.
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: Not a mentor. I just refuse to believe that.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: But it's like I've been I've seen this happen where
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: it's a man who will be like I can get you,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: I can get you to the top, kid like making
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: you all these promises like I can you will find
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: success with me, and being feeling like, Okay, this is
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: what I have to do to get success, and just
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: the systemic issues with that. But I also think, like
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: we've been talking about this a lot. We just did
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: an episode about Bumble and what their ad campaign that was.
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: A menu, and it's I feel there is this thing
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: that is more nuanced than people are trying to make
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: it where it's like, oh, you're sexually empowered, you want
• 25:07
  Speaker 6: to do this, right, but it's still men like manipulating
• 25:10
  Speaker 6: women into doing this thing.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: And if that's what you want to do, more power
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: to you. But I feel like it's so often presented
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: as oh, I'm going to empower you so that men
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: can look at you.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, there's a lot of cautions of ethics.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what I was looking into all of the different
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: things that people say is part of Hugh Hefner's legacy
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: around things like equality and racial equality. Like it's like, oh,
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: he had the first trans playmate in his magazine. He
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: had the first black playmate, and then a black woman
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: who was photographed on a cover of Playboy with an afro,
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: And I understand why people are talking about this in
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: the frame of a quality. Like when Hefner died, Caroline
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: Tulakasi said that, you know, she was the first transgender
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: woman in the magazine, and she tweeted Rip qu Heffnrd,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: thank you for allowing me to share my story and
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: for your support and platform that helped my campaign her
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: trans rights and visibility. So I get that, but it
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: makes me a bit sad that the equality that we're
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: talking about is having underrepresented people being served up to
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: be sexually consumed in this way, and that part and
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: parcel of that with Playboy has always been giving the
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: women less economically right, Like even that first story that
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: you that you shared sam about Marilyn Monroe, the person
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: who got the least amount of money in that exchange
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: was Marilyn Monroe. Everybody else was getting more money. For
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: her body, and so yeah, I just it is it
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: is complicated in that is that really equality?
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Right? And in the in the Marilyn Monroe in that
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: article at biography dot com, she talks about the fight
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: that they've made millions of dollars off of me and
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I've not seen like she literally talks about the fact
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: that she knows how much money that they have made
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: off of this, and how he really did advertise me
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: like first time news that with people have talked about
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: never seen like he made sure to blow this up
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: in a way that it was going to sell and
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: launch him into being a millionaire. But I find it
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: interesting that when we come back because at the end,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: I do want to have this conversation because playboy Hugh
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Hefner touts this whole ideal of allowing women to be
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: a part of these conversations and being whatever they want
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: to be through this access, and it's all about sexual
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: liberation and for women as well. We want to give
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: you the freedom to choose and enjoy sex and say
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: that you like sex. But when it comes down to
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: that being the fact that women have to pay in
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: order to be able to say that, but they're not
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: able to say that because they can't say no, Like,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: there's so many conversations to that, And at what point
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: in what platform is there a possibility? Is there a
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: true way that women can be sexually liberate where they
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: have all of the power to have the consent that
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: they deserve and to be able to profit off it
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: if they want to, Like, do they have equality in
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: a field that has been abused and used to abuse
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: women for so long? Like, there's so much like depth
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: to that because they're like, we wanted to be and
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Playboy made money off of that idea, right, So where
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: do we get that?
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: And I would argue, like that is a great question
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: and a great conversation to have, But I can't look
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: at the legacy of Playboy and say that they were
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: actually offering women that in a meaningful way, right, Like,
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: just let's look at some of the things that we
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: know about what went on in the mansion, you know, right,
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: selling pictures of women that were taken without their consent.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: In all the memoirs, the women talk about how they
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: did not know, but there was cameras in Hugheffner's bedroom,
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: and so in these required nightly orgies, they didn't know
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: that they were being filmed. And if your whole thing,
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: if your whole platform is around sexual freedom, sexual liberation
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: that has to that can't happen if there's also coercion
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: and a lack of informed consent, those things cannot co exist.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: And so if you are not getting consent from women,
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: and women are being coerced into things that they don't
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: know that they're doing, and I'm certainly they are consenting
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: to you, there is no sexual liberation.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: You're selling a lie. And so I'm not going to
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: say that there is not a model where.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Women can truly have like meaningful sexual liberation that also
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: does not involve like coercion or exploitation or something. I'm
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: not gonna say that, but I can certainly look at
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: this model and say this wasn't in it.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: You know, right, absolutely absolutely. I'm fact we're going to
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: talk about the fact that, yes, overall, Hugh Hefner's legacy
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: is a rollercoaster and doing a steady decline, and I
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: think we're all here for that. From an NPR article
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: by Scott Simon, he writes, Hugh Hefner saw the sexual
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: revolution as a companion to the movements of civil rights
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: and free speech. But this leading figure of the sexual
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: revolution couldn't see the feminist revolution. Heff went from being
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: acclaimed an icon of cool to being denounced and oppressive.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Pick And he also goes on to say that Hefner's
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: reputation for many of the women in Chicago was actually
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: pretty good for some. He says, when I was growing
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: up in Chicago, the formidable women who were my mother's
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: friends considered Playboy a good place to work for a
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: single woman. Women at the Playboy Club were well paid,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: got chauffeured home in cabs, and customers stars, politicians, even
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: it was rumored spoiled by Middle Eastern princes were thrown
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: out if they weren't gentlemen. My Auntie Abba trained Playboy bunnies.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: When Gloria Steinem and others said the bunny costume which
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: wrenched a woman's bodice upwards so her chest resembled ice
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: cream scoops or exhibit a in the way Hugh Hefner
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: made women into idealized sex objects, my Auntie Aba sniffed
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: and said, well, they wear some pretty ridiculous costumes at
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: the Metropolitan Opera two, So it was interesting. And he
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: is not in favor, Like he's not talking highly, he's
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: just talking about what he had experienced as a child
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: in Chicago who had connections. And you know what I
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: will say from the documentary, it starts off that way
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: in this conversation. And of course when we talk about
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: the Playboy clubs, the legacy of the clubs and the magazines,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: though they were related, were still two different money makers, right,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Because I think it's interesting to note that, as Hugh
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Hefner was like, I'm about equal equality, I am about
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: all these things, the little ratio of marginalized people in
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: the magazine is very low, like real real, real, real,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: real low, right, real.
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: Low, And yet he's like a celebration, like, yes, it's
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: super low. It's super white, super conventional. And it's like, oh, well,
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: he did have a black woman with an afro on
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: the cover right once or twice, Like it's like, how is.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: It this low?
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: And you're also being like heralded as a paragon of
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: racial equality.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Right, And I just like the level of like how
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: many black women were featured is like single digits, and
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: one of them happened to be LaToya Jackson, who was
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: there as a celebrity essentially, and the way he showed.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: I think some of his diversity is hiring them at clubs,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: is what it sounds like. So they weren't necessarily featured
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: on the magazine. You weren't good enough for that, but
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: you're good enough to make me money this way.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: Oh yes, that is that is a tension that still
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: existed and still ran as an undercurrent through a lot
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: of them, the memoirs that I've read of like parts
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: of the pape, the Playboy Enterprise, or these coveted things
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: like getting a cover, being a playmate, and so it's like, oh,
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: I'm good enough to like be at your trashy parties
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: and like make you money in some ways, but in
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: other ways I'm not good enough.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: Like like that dynamic is very.
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: Much an undercurrent of the Playboy, the Playboy that we
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: were watching, like in the Girls next Door era too.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: And you know, we're going to kind of talk about
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: a little bit of what he his legacies are and
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: when these contain and one of the big things that
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: people always spout is about free speech.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: Oh yes, So this the free speech thing definitely is
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: a kind of a part of his legacy. And as
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: you mentioned him, like part of it is because as
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: a person who makes and distributes pornography, he had to
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: defend his own work in his own business from censorship
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: and like government censorship and all of that. Him and
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: his ex wife established the Hugh M. Hefner First Amendment Award,
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: which is still given out today. It creates it which
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: I think I find like very funny. It started in
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine to honor individuals who have made significant
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: contributions in the vital effort to protect and enhance First
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: Amendment rights for Americans. According to the BBC, in nineteen
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: fifty four, he won a legal battle against the United
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: States Postal Service when the Postmaster General, Arthur Summerfield, refused
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: to deliver copies of Playboy on the grounds that it
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: was obscene. Hefteror told the court, we don't think Postmaster
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: Summerfield has any business editing magazines. We think you should
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: stick to delivering the mail. And Playboy actually won that case.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Right and didn't he he had the again, we talked
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: about the fact that the mess act which happened, and
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: one of the big whistle blowers is one of the
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: people in the documentary. Uh, she was a higher up.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: She was an original Playboy Bunny. She was on the centerfold.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Uh she was the first Latina uh Playboy Bunny to
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: be featured. And then she just like went up the
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: rinks in the corporation really thinking she was going to
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: be doing something, Like she was so excited that she
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: was a part of something that she can really work
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: for women's rights. But at one point, she finally had
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: enough after so much abuse. I believe with the murder
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: of one of the Playboy uh playmates of the year,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I believe, Uh, she kind of just had enough and
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: she couldn't figure out how to help the bunnies, as
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: you said, or the models, and so she came out
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: as a whistle blower, testifying in front of the court
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: about the acts that were happening under the Playboy executives
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: and that Hugh Hefner was very aware. And this included
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: things that didn't necessarily happen in the mansion but happened
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: under their watch, whether it was at these clubs or
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: whether it was at these like they had like lodges,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: which I was like, oh, I didn't know that existed,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: or they had like incidents where they were sending models
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: out and it wasn't actually for a modeling job. It's
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: literally trafficking them out totally.
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: So this is something that I want to like be
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: super clear about, which is that people really talk a
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: lot about Hugh Hefner as this champion of free speech,
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: but the women in his orbit tell a very different
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: tale about the actual role of free speech for women
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: in his empire, right, Like, it kind of almost reminds
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: me of Elon Musk, who is like, oh, free speech,
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: free speech, unless you're somebody who works for me, and
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: you're the speech that you are talking about is starting
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: a union. Right So, Sondra Theodore, former Hefner girlfriend who
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: was accused Hefner of grooming young women and keeping tapes
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: on them to silence them, said, there is no freedom
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: of speech in the world of Playboy. Playmates have been
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: kept quiet since the beginning unless you're singing his or
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Playboy's praises. Of course, no way the celebration can go
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: interrupt it. It's a farce. She added. This was after
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: Hugh Hefner died and everybody was rushing to be like, oh, well,
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: he was a real champion of free speech, and yeah,
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: I just don't.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: I don't believe that you.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: Should be lifting up somebody as a champion of free speech,
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: even if they do have awards, even if they did
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: have to defend themselves, if they are maintaining and benefiting
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: and profiting from an empire that relies on silencing women's
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: speech to do that, those two things are completely and
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: deeply incompatible to me, right.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Right, there's the majority of what Playboy was representing was
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: incompatible to just human rights. Let's just be very clear,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: like the overall freedoms and like protections of individuals, point blank.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: So yeah, what I'm talking about is actually the mis Report,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: which was published in nineteen eighty six. It was under
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: the Ronald Reagan, which I hate him, I don't love him,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: but like the things did happen, but it was done
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: under his administration, and they did. They went after Playboy
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: in which I think like twenty three several like convenience
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: store chains stopped publishing and Playboy countersuit saying that they
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: had lost millions of dollars in revenue. And also, you're
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: taking away the freedom of speech from retailers as well
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: as individuals who want to purchase these magazines, so so
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: many things, and this kind of led way to what
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: I was talking about with the covering up of the magazines,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: all you could see this is a title and you
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: can't look at it. And I think eventually we'll eventually
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: lead to like the ratings, the TVUMA type of things
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: as well. But this is like something that he went after.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: And because he did go after this, people were like, yeah,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: he's definitely championing for our eyes, not a capitalist wanting
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: all his money back, because again, it did hurt him
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: pretty badly. But during that time is when we saw
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: one insider come out and talk about why Playboy is
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: not what you think. It's not about this, and these
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: are things about like harassment and doing under duress, talking
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: about because we're talking about this later, like women being drugged,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: women being pressured, because we know that several of the
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: models talked about the fact that they came in with
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: the strong understanding that all they would do is show
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: their movies there, show some breasts and that's fine, and
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: then eventually being talked into or co warced or told
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: that they would not get this job unless they were
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: fully fully naked, and so many things. And then I know,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: like I fleeve with most of them, they were all
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: filmed and they were told and promised that they none
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: of this would be published. It was just for them,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: It was just for our works, and everything is quote
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: unquote going on the cutting room floor. We just want
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: to do a behind the scenes type of very classy,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: which I love it that that's what they talk too.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Is like it's very classy. Is a girl next door
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: type of shoes, so don't worry about it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it goes back to that manufactured, pr
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: crafted image of this being somehow wholesome as opposed to
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: what it actually is, which is the exploitation of women
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: both sexually and economically that is being maintained by surveillance, coercion, lies,
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: and drugs. I almost feel like if that was the
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: kind of enterprise that they were running and profiting from.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: Like okay, well that's what it is.
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: But I guess where I sort of take issue more
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: broadly is like why did we all have to believe
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: that it was really wholesome and like good for the women?
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: Why can't it just be what it is?
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: The bit about where we all come into it of
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: like oh, we should all be like seeing the behind
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: the scenes and like thinking it's really like a good
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: for the girls, that's what I kind of take issue
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: with or, you know, seeing the way that these women
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: who spoke up about what they saw, like you were
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: just talking about sam like seeing them be silenced and
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: then also having to praise you Hefner as a paragona
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: free speech, right, Right, That's what I can abide, right.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And as you were saying, people who were wanted
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: to tell their story were being told you can't tell
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: this story and being silenced by you Hefner and his team.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: Another voice that was in that documentary Jennifer Saganor, who
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: wrote this tell all book about her childhood, which she
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: largely spent at the Playboy Mansion in the nineties and
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: two thousands. Her dad was Hefner's live in doctor. Like
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: kind of a doctor. It sounds like kind of a doctor,
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: feel good kind of sitch. But she wrote a memoir
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: about the things that she had seen and about that experience.
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: She wrote, quote, I was silent when my memoir Playground,
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: came out. I believe there is truth to the hypocrisy
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: that should be noted by all the irony of being
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: silenced by the King of the First Amendment, the true
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: nature of our culture, and abuse of power in our society,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: and her book was all about like really gross things
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: like grooming of underage girls, girls being given drugs sometimes
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: without their knowledge. That heard memoir Allegen's behavior that is criminal,
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: and she was silenced by Hugh Hefner when she tried
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: to speak out about this in her book.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Right, her story alone in the documentary was horrifying. I
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: was very confused from John like she was there. She's
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: moved into the Playboy mage and had her own room
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: at the age of seven, like her dad brought her there.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: She talked about how she would sit in Hugh Hefner's
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: lap during their game days and she really saw him
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: as a father figure, really thought he was so amazing.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: And then at the age of fifteen, she realized she
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: was kind of infatuated with one of the playmates who
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: happened to be Hugh Hefner's girlfriend at the time, and
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: they started having a relationship. And by the way, this
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: woman was an adult, I believe she was twenty twenty one. Yes,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: she was also groomed into that, but the a day
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: started a sexual relationship, and in that she alleges that
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: Hugh Hefner tried to get the girlfriend brought her into
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: his bedroom and then they started playing about I apologize
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: and the girl. The girlfriend started crying and ran out,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: and he allegedly said to her, well, I guess this
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: is not happening now. I can't do this while she's crying.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: So he was ready to have a sexual relationship. And
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: this was when she was at the age of seventeen
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: with someone she considered him being a father figure and
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: his best friend's daughter.
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there is a lot of blurring, like you, like
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: you were saying earlier that like, oh, what do these
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: girls get out of it, Oh, well, a mentor figure,
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: And it's like, well, if you're having sex with your like,
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of blurring of roles here where if
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: you can you really have a mentor and be having
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: sex with him, should you be having sex with somebody
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: that you said that you considered a father figure. And
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: also if you're like not of the age of consent,
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: you obviously shouldn't. Like that's you know, a different thing.
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: But yeah, a lot of what was it sounds like
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: a lot of what was going on in the house
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: was this kind of real blurring of lines and boundaries
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: and the line of consent and legality, and it kind
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: of being sold back to us as like not this
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: big of a deal, like a fun party and environment
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: as opposed to an environment that is.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Actually really toxic. That's right. I'm sorry, it is wild.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't want to like cast dispersions.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: It is wild to me that this guy moved his
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: kid into that house, right, It's just like I have
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: to have to say.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: That, Like there's so many things that I was confused
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: by that this situation, and I know this was like
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: the early like sixties, seventies, fifties, I don't know, like
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: sixty seventies. I think actually that I was like, yo,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: why would you you know, you take part in this
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: and you're okay with bringing your daughter in there. And
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: then also I don't know if her father knew that
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: that situation happened, but that they didn't remove her from
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: the situation. She remained there until she left, I believe,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And when she wrote the book, she had some publicity,
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: and then she was supposed to go do a few more.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: According to her, Hughefner called her. I was like, I'm
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: so proud of you for doing this book. Great job.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Can you tell me who else you were going to go?
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: See?
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: And then when she found out and she told him,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: he called all of them and they all canceled on her.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: So like that was essentially like, not, you're done this,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: This book is over.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: A free speech. Everybody a champion express herself right.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: And the woman that I was talking about earlier was
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Mickey Garcia. She was the one that really came in
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: the eighties and came in and testified saying, I have notes,
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: and she actually in the documentary pulls out boxes of
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: notes and memos and all the things of all the
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: complaints that she was getting from women, all the rape
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: allegations that were happening, all the situations where they were
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: not correctly protected, all of these things, and then all
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: them being swept under the rug. But she was the
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: one that really came through. It was like, nah, this
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: is bad. Y'all are doing some bad things. And she
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: alleges also that she was told that she was in
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: the rankings for being Playman of the Year, which the
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: way they pay is that you get a subsidential amount,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: well not even substantial. During her time, it was fifteen thousand,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: and that was like you get five thousand for the picture,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: and it being published, you get another five thousand, uh
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: after it's run for a year, and then get another
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: five thousand like three years later, so literally you got
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: five thousand a year for like the next four years.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Maybe like it was an absurd way of holding money
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: over their head for this instead of just being paid upfront,
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: which they couldn't say no to that. They were like,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: oh that at that point, that's not a lot of money,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: not really in comparison to how often you got that, but.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: And what they're making from that from that.
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: So it's like when you put it in context, it's
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: really not that.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Much money, right and as well as so, she was
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: told that she was in the running for being Playman
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: of the Year, which was going to be like at
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: least double if not more than that, and that was
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: a huge deal and really big deal thing, but she
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: had to go meet up with Hugh Hefner for a
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: personal appointment in order to make that and when she
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: refused to do so, they didn't say she was like
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: the person who was trying to arrange all this, which
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: was a woman, was like, okay, that's on you. You
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: do you. When she announced who the Playmate of the
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Year was, it definitely wasn't her, and of course, Garcia
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: came back with, like, I don't I'm not saying that
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: the other woman did do any of these things and
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: had this personal meeting in a way, whatever whatnot. But
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying that I was told this is what
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I would need to do, or it was implied to
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: me that this is what I needed to do to
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: get to this point.
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's definitely clear that a lot of the machinations
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: of how this inner world worked is through things being
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: held over women's head, false promises that never come to fruition,
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: really kind of pitting women against each other, Like it's
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: so diabolical and toxic. The inner machinations of how this
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: whole system sustained.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Itself, right, And it was interesting to me, just like
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: the timeline when you see things progressing and how gross
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: things got and the level of toxicity that remained, and
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: it really was like Mad Men era type of thing,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: and then the sixties seventies, but it was also budding
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: heads with the feminist movement at the same time, which
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: is a whole different conversation, and again with the racial
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: equality movement. So he had so many other things that
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: he could point to. It felt like a distraction of like,
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: I'm so great at this that I can do these
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: things too, Like it seems like that kind of balance.
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: I mean again, this is where it gets complicated in
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: that he did have concrete things that you could point
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: to and be like, oh, that was a good way
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: to push the conversation on race Ford right, Like he
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: published very sort of like at the time, progressive conversations
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: about race.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: One of the first ever interviews they ever published was
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: an interview between Alex Haley, who was the author of
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: the book Roots, with the jazz musician Miles Davis and
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: It's all about This was in nineteen sixty two, and
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: it's all about like racial equality and sort of the
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: future of race in America. Martin Luther King's longest print
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: interview appeared in Playboy in January of nineteen sixty five.
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: Cooper Hefner, Hugh Hefter's son, told The Telegraph that the
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: last article ever written by MLK before his assassination was
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: published by Playboy. He added that a special edition was
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: published in Braille for musician Ray Charles was blind. So
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: he also was a big backer of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: Push Coalition, which was like a big racial Justice Organization.
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: Back in the sixties, Hefner donated twenty five thousand dollars
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: as a reward in order to help the comedian Dick
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: Gregory uncover the bodies of slain civil rights activists. So like,
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: he definitely did these things that pushed the conversation around
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: race forward.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: I would argue that.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: These things might have been done out of genuine desire
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: to shape conversations about race, But when he died, the
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: way the conversation was about these things makes me also
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: suspect that they were done with intention to make sure
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: that some of his less savory things be drowned out
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: by these things, these good things that he actually did.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Do right right, And that's like that big part is
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: that he gave like this credence to the magazine. Insane
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: is not just naked women. Look at these articles. Look
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: at this like boundary pushing conversations we're having. We're talking
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: about LGBTQ rights, we're talking about racial equality, we're talking
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: about all these things that you want to hide, but
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: we are for the people like he.
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: Really Yeah, but it's so funny that when you were
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: at your friend's house and watching the Playboy channel, it
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: wasn't like, we're gonna put on the Playboy channel. What
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: is this Alex Haley in conversation with Miles Davis about
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: racial equality.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: This is bad, let's watch it.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's become of a movie. Was like, no,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: I get Playboy for the articles. That's that like joke
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: that people have about it. Honestly, the first time I
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: realized people and maybe because I was out of the world,
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: out of that world like that was very I was
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: very religious and so like that was all bad anyway
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: because it was naked women in general, bad bad, bad,
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: but like having the Like the first time I think
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: someone talked about the articles was something with George Clooney
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: related like he had published something and I can't even remember,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: or about about some depth of a conversation that seemed
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: really political. And then I think John Mayer wrote an
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: article in there or was interviewed in there, talking about
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: how he was getting his sobriety and how he made
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: all these mistakes, like he was first like slamming the
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: women and then he came back later with now I'm sober.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Sounds like it's very interesting, very interesting to me that
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: it's like, look at these women naked the articles.
• 50:38
  Speaker 5: From what I'm hearing, and mostly men, I.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Don't think you're wrong. I think he's probably right about
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: That's what I was thinking too, is like when he
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: talked about giving equal rights. Not that that's not because
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: we need more voices obviously, but it was more black
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: women doing their investigative reporters when they were talking about it. Also,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: they did send one, uh and I think it's that
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: same comedian to a Neil like the newly founded American
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Nazi Group to interview them, who had a gun entire
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: interview with him, to threaten him. I'm like, really, like
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: that's what you decided that was really gonna be cool?
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I do think like we could do
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: a whole, like like a whole conversation on the way
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: that Playboy understands and creates journalism and media, like apart.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: From the pornography.
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: I actually the only copy of Playboy magazine that I
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: actually have in my house is one from the seventies
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: with an interview with.
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: Gore Vidal, the novelist, and so like.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: They certainly weren't like publishing I think with intention trying
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: to publish sort of high minded, serious writing like Norman
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: Mail or things like that. I think to again like
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: manufacture this idea that if you had a playboy in
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: your home, you weren't just looking at pictures of breasts
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: or whatever. You were reading like serious, serious and writing
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: about serious topics.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: And I think like when we talked about like who
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: he was in the legend that he left behind, and
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: we we're probably talking about a lot of big insinuations
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: in this, like the when we talk about any of
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: the good things that he does, there's always a butt
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: like there's there This conversation cannot have that. So it's
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: like if you looked at our outline the way like
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: we had placed, it was like, oh, we're gonna try
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: to talk about these things, but then we'll come into
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: the scandal of it all. But then like not, it
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: just kind of all sets in. It can't do that.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: There's no real way of like this is what he
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: did in the legacy, like blah blah blah, but this
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: is the legacy, and this is a part of his legacy,
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: Like the bad is also a part of his legacy,
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: and we have to forget it it just because it's
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: newly sought out or at least uh women have now
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: or people marginalized people have finally come about to talk
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: about it doesn't mean that it wasn't always there, you
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like this is a conversation which
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: again this is a side note of the thing that
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: I saw so much of in this documentary, the back
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: and forth even from the victims themselves and the survivors themselves,
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: talking about I know I should have done all these things.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: I know I should have gone out. I'm smarter than this,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: I should not have done this, this is my fault.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: The many times I heard them say this is my
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: fault made me want to throw up. To be honest,
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: like I was, just like this is irritating, even to
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: the point that one of the ones who was Hugh
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Hefner's friend and work and defends him to this day,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: like she had a group for support for Hugh Hefner
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: on different pages and whatnot. She talked about the fact
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: that not Hugh Hefner, but one of his like ringleaders
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: kind of set her up to be raped by one
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: of the photographers that worked close in hand with Hugh Hefner,
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: and she came out getting mad and yelling at that
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: friend and saying, don't you shouldn't like she had told her,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm leaving with you, don't leave me here
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: because she knew something bad would happen, and said, don't, like,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: you should never do that to a woman, You never
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: do that to another woman. But previously, if you like
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: had a cut two moment in my head in which
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: she had like went after Holly, who was one of
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: the girlfriends from The Girl next Door, probably the lead girlfriend,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: probably the most like famous of the ones, like people
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: who know nothing about Hugh Hefner or the play why
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: I knew who she was? Holly Madison had written her
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: memoir and in the documentary, she's like, how dare she
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: She was not unhappy? Why was she stay there? Why
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: would she do these things? Why is she's lying now
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: because she's she's taking his name like she was mad,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: But she was also the same person who had an
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: experience that just wasn't Hugh Hefner personally related, but losing
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: that connection that there's a reason that culture was okay,
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: there's a reason another woman who worked very closely with
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Hugh Hefner literally set you up to be raped, and
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: she could not connect that even today. And that's kind
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: of that conversation that we like it. It's so jarring
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: to see. And I don't know if she noticed it.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: I doubt she did. After I don't know if you
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: watched the entire thing, but like herself, the woman that
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: was on the documentary. But that's the level of like
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: conversations that people really really forget that there's a connection here.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, totally. So the way that you clocked
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: that is so insightful.
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: And from listening to a lot of the Girls Next
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: Level podcast and from reading a lot of the memoirs
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: that I think that is still an undercurrent where I
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: do think a lot of the women who were in
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: this orbit, whether they believe that something coercive happened to
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: them or not, I think a lot of them are
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: still doing currently doing the work of like processing that
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: and put and like contextualizing it. And I think that
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: when you are steeped in this world that is really
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: about putting women in against each other, surveillance and exploitation,
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: Like a lot of the women talk about, everybody in
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: their orbit is also kind of like vying for their job,
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: and so you don't know who to trust a lot
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: of surveillance.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: I think that that kind of environment would make any would.
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: Be tough for anybody, And I really see the ways that,
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: like even today, I'm not sure that they have truly
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: processed what that has done to them and how that
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: has colored their own internal understanding of what happened, because
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: I really see a lot of them sort of doing
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: a lot of that work in public, and I think
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: for anybody that would be really tough.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Right absolutely that what really was the back and forth
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: of like them not being able to fully blame the
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: perpetrator and not fully understanding the depth the things that
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: have gone through, because again, this is that same level,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: and I really want to highlight for conservative people or
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: at least like those who would be very like conspiratory people,
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: like this is grooming, This is trafficking. If you want
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: want to know what we are talking about and what
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: grooming and trafficking truly looks like this is it because
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: these women have been told and in like till today,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: like people still find Playboy as a mecca or the
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: all like final realm of being sexy and a professional.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: Like you see so many athletes coming into like I
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: can be both these things and these are going to
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: meld my image into this beautiful way of whatever whatnot,
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: which you know, we'll come back to the fact that
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: that's taken a long time to get to there. And
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: they want to credit Playboy for this, this level of
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: acceptance as being a feminine woman, because that's what Playboy
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: chouts as well as an athlete, like these things as
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: a way of opening up their image. But what we're
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: looking at here is that young women being told, oh
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: my god, you're so pretty, You're so beautiful. We really
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: want to help you grow your career. We really want
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: to help you do these things. If you want to
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: do these test shoes, we're only going to do things
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: that make you feel comfortable. Oh you're uncomfortable. Here, let
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: me give you some a little bit of a little
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: bit of vodka here, it'll be good. You gonna will
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: helps you put to ease. We're gonna get you here.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Look at this picture. Isn't this beautiful of you? Oh
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: my god? We want here to meet somebody, meet so
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: and so. And the love bombing, which one of the
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: older playmates who she was like the star essentially of
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: the first season, Sonya Theodore, who was one of first
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: girlfriends in the mansion, talked about that this level of
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: like conversation and grooming and coming into being like, Oh,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: you're so loved, You're so adored, You're the best thing
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: for me, and everybody talking about how she was so
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: in love with with how hef was so in love
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: with her, Like again, uh, these couple people would be
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: like they should have gotten married. He truly loved her,
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: She truly loved him and all these things to the
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: point that her daughter was like mad at her mom
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: at first for doing these types of documentaries because she
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: didn't understand the depth of abuse that she because she
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: was told by her mother that have really changed their life,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: really put them into such a better place, really loved
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: and cared for her. But in her story, she talks
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: about like really like loving him and really wanting to
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: do these things for him and being there for him
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: and experiencing these new things and getting away from her
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: ugly past into all of a sudden being like, oh,
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: I have to recruit other girls to be a part
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: of this, begging other girls to be a part of this,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: so she didn't know she didn't have to suffer alone,
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: like she talks about that, to the point that she
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: also talks about like being handed over to his guy
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: friends and her telling him this hurts me, This dude
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: hurts me. I don't make me do this, and he
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: just laughing at her and moving on like stuff like that,
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: like this is like, this is trafficking. This this is greaming.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: Let me show you what this is. And this is
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: happening to what you see as a quintessential you know, victim,
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: this white woman who has like it and but many
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: people when after her saying she chose this life so
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: like those who's spout trafficking and blad trafficking is awful,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: we need to stop trafficking. Also doesn't believe that this
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: is trafficking.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: Oh my god.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: So you're talking about the experience of his first girlfriend.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: I have read the memoir of I guess like his
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: last girlfriend, the woman who was married.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: To him when he dies.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, she just released that.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: I recommended it was a very good read.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: I know that when her memoir was released, people in
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: the Playboy Orbert were like, oh, she's just lying, Like
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: she shows this life.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: But toward the end, I mean, you're talking about trafficking.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: Toward the end of the book, so she describes what
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: it's like to be in the mansion, which it just
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: sounds awful.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: I want to give some tidbits about it, but it
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: just it just sounds awful.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: But when she decides like I don't want to do
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: this anymore, I want to leave, the way that she
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: has to get out because of the way money works
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: within the mansion. But women are giving an allowance of
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: a thousand dollars a week. It's this stop ritual where
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: they have to go to helf and ask for the
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: money and he's like, well, I guess you've been a
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: good girl.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: Here you go, and they it's a thousand dollars cash.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: They're not allowed to really do work to earn money
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: outside of Playboy.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: Every now and then they can do like appearances or something, but.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: All of that really has to go through Playboy unless
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: they do like a centerfold or an image, and then
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: they get like a little bit of a talent, a
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: little bit of a talent feed side note, the women
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: who were on Girls next Door did not get paid.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: Didn't get paid. The first person to bring up like
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: they should be paid was Kendra, and that was after
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: the second season. Hugh Hefter got four hundred thousand dollars
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: an episode and was barely in the show and to like,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: you know, the only way that these women could really
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: make money was through Playboy, and so Crystal when she
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: was like I've had enough of this, she basically started
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: kind of like scrolling away her money and saving it
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: up and like moving her stuff out of the house
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: little by little. And the way that she has to
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: get out is the way that you would have to
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: get out of a situation that you are not really
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: in consensually. Before I read her memoir, I was like, Oh,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: it does sound like this is coercive or whatever whatever.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: She was being low key kept against her will when
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: she had finally had enough. At one point, she recounts
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: that when she was trying to like physically leave, she
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: had to be like, oh, I'm just going to the
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: store to get some tampons, and then she had to
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: get in her car and like split and that when
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: they realized that she was trying to leave, Hugh Hefner
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: was like, don't let her leave. And then it occurs
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: to her She's like, oh, I'm actually genuinely being held
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: against my will a little bit. And so when you
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: say when you use words like trafficking, I think people
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: think that we're using it as a euphemism.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: But if you are in a living situation that you have,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: you can.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: Only leave via secretly hiding money away and lying about
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: where you're going. And when when you try to leave,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: somebody physically restrains you. You tell me what that sounds like.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: You know, right?
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: But that's the problem. Is like when we talk about
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: exploitation here, an exploitation, by the way, is a nice
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: word for this, Like I really wish like and we will,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: I think, actually go deeper into it because like again, kidnapping, coercaling, trafficking,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: those were the things that were happening. Rape, sexual assault, drugging,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: all of these things were happening in this era and
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: in connection to so I think this is the biggest thing.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: Is like part of the conversation that people want to
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: have is that it wasn't him. He didn't know what
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: was going on. But this dude was a control free
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: because the cameras everywhere. In fact, Tony Curtis, who legendary
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: actor part of that, didn't know and actually came in
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: and I believe, I don't know if he sued him.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: I think he did sue him to get any video.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: That would.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: Have of him because he freaked out, did not realize
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: what was happening, Like, so we know those were there.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: That has been accounted for. That is a fact. Every
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: single person that worked there, every single person that went
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: there for a long period of time, knew those whore existed.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: After a certain amount of time, not at first, not.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: It finally came out and people started figuring out, oh, oh,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: he's keeping tabs because there was a power play. It
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: was a kink and a power play. And it's interesting
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: that when we talk about the exploitation, because it can
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: range from anything to just using photos of women to
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: make money off of it. Two, which is bad enough,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: to once again sending them to a night, remote isolated
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: area to a man who has asked to essentially buy them,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: which included Trump by the way, and to use them
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly, and to the fact that women not knowing
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: this was happening. So when they got there thinking they're
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: going in for a modeling job. And the story with
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: Trump was she was told that she was going to
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: the Tropicana campaign, was going to be modeling, shows up
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: and she's like, oh, sitting and talking to him, having
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: dinner with him, doing all those things, and he was
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: like she was like, okay, so let's when why I
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: start this. And he was like, look, that's not happening.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: That's not a thing. You're not here for modeling. And
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: she was like excuse me, and she called somebody and
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: said I'm not doing this and she immediately left. She
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: did say nothing happened, but that was the setup, like
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: he she had gotten set up to be a sex
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: thing for Trump against her will, like being co warced,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: like hoping that they could just scare her into it,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: and that happened.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: And we have a word for that.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: Someone who is being coerced against their will into doing
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: sexual activities with somebody that they don't want to do
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: that with. The law has a word for that. It's trafficking.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: That's not like us being hysterical or something.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: That's that's the word.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: And so I feel like when we yeah, I just
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: I think it's easy to make it seem like we're
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: like like talking about this in a way that is exaggerated.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: But you tell to mean what that sounds.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Like, right exactly, And that's exactly the conversation is, like
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: y'all never really say it, because I don't really think
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: they mention trafficking in the documentary and I'm freaking out
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: of the social worker, going that's the epitome. This is
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: what's happening. You have bought yourself a group of women
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: through a promise of fame and money to do your
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: bidding to get power or money from other beings, and
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: they have no controller say except they are owed to
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: this to you in their minds, in the minds of
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: the power to be that they owe this to you
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: because you're trying to do these things for them. Maybe right,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: they played the.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: Game, and within the context of the women like Holly Bridget, Kendra, Crystal,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 4: the twins Christina and Carisa, it's a lot more explicit
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: that this is an exchange of sex for money within
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: the context of like the Girl's next door ecosystem, like
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: the like all of the girls are clear we are
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 4: expected to have nightly orgies on film with Hugh and
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: we are paid one thousand dollars a week allowance for that,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: and we get room and board for that.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: Like that is that is much more explicit for the
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: women who are living.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: In the house, and it's curious to me how people
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: would then have trouble believing that outside of the house.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: For the women who were just sort of in the
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: orbit in a perfheral way. How's that kind of same
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: dynamic would still be there? Like, I'm like, this is
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: the drill. Obviously, this is the drill. The women who
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: lived within the house say, this is what happened. They
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: had a very clear understanding of this as a kind
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: of job where the thing that they had to do
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 4: was sexual favors. Why would that Why would that not
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: be the case for the women who were just modeling
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: or the women who were peripherally in the Playboy orbit?
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: Right? Right? So I was saying that I had the
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: names of the girlfriends, and I have to tell you
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: that the title of the article, which is how from
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: Hollywoodlife dot Com puts it, Hugh Hefner and the women
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: who loved him, and I think the chunk of them
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: were like, we didn't love him. We were just told
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: that we would get money. Yeah, which I'm like, why
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: would you post it that way? And I say, they
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: actually write that for the twins. By the way, the
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: twins were nineteen years old when they were flown there.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: They had like, sure they were they had had sex before,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: but they never had sex together. And being with Hugh
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: Hefner was the first time because they were living his fantasy.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: Oh so I think we're going to have to turn
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: this into a two parter. It's clear that we have
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: a lot to say surprise, surprise, feminists have a lot
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: to say about Hugh Hefner.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: So we'll come back with the part two. But in
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 5: the meantime, bridget where can the good listeners find you?
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: You can find me at I Hate Hugh Hefner dot org.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: Just kidding, you can listen to my podcast. There are
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: no girls on the Internet.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: It's important to deconstruct all of the ways that media
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 4: and technology has been used to exploit, and we do that,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 4: and so I'm thankful that you all do that too
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 4: and gave me the space to really lay that bear
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: when it comes to Playboy and Hugh Hefner and listeners.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can. You
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: can emails it Stephani your mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: You can find it on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff when Never told you.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We have a tea public store,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: and we have a book you can get wherever you
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks as always too, our super producer Christina,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: our executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey. Thank you
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening stuff never told you
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: the production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast with
• 1:09:17
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• 1:09:19
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