Latest / The Unmaking / S01E05: Jenny Chisholm - landscape painter. Glendhu Bay.

Transcript

S01E05: Jenny Chisholm - landscape painter. Glendhu Bay. · The Unmaking

0:15
SPEAKER_00: Jenny welcome to The Unmaking where are we parked right now and why?
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh John hi nice to be here back here it was my early 20s I came down from
0:27
SPEAKER_01: the North Island with a girlfriend in an old Bedford camper traveling around
0:33
SPEAKER_01: the South Island we caught up with some friends that I knew
0:38
SPEAKER_01: from Outward Bound days he was into jet boat sprinting and the Matukituk
0:45
SPEAKER_01: River was back in those days jet boat sprinting so we came out and stayed here
0:52
SPEAKER_01: and joined them us girls were the navigators in the boat and we just had
0:56
SPEAKER_01: an absolute blast who knows you do when you're in your 20s
1:00
SPEAKER_01: and Wanaka was my favourite pad
1:04
SPEAKER_01: and yeah here I am 40 years later living here well it was probably no it would have
1:11
SPEAKER_01: been 30 years
1:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we've been here for 23 years now.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: And that would have been a trip down from Tauranga then, was it?
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: We came down,
1:23
SPEAKER_01: my husband's family are living in Cromwell and we thought,
1:26
SPEAKER_01: oh, eventually it would be nice to have a stint in central Otago.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Let's do that sometime.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: And we thought, oh,
1:31
SPEAKER_01: let's just do it for two or three years and we'll head back home because we had
1:35
SPEAKER_01: a nice little lifestyle block in the hills by a river
1:38
SPEAKER_01: and we quite liked living up there.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: And, but no,
1:42
SPEAKER_01: we fell in love with the area Fell in love with, oh,
1:45
SPEAKER_01: it wasn't just Wanaka Yeah,
1:46
SPEAKER_01: it was everywhere The South Island And yeah,
1:49
SPEAKER_00: it all started from there Let's go right back to the beginning then You were adopted
1:56
SPEAKER_00: as a baby into a farming family in Tauranga What do you remember about how
2:01
SPEAKER_00: that landscape shaped you?
2:03
SPEAKER_00: The farm, the bush, that physical world that you grew up in?
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah fantastic upbringing and I was thinking about that driving out here this is
2:11
SPEAKER_01: the unmaking and for me being adopted at two weeks old was the start of the unmaking
2:20
SPEAKER_01: or the remaking you know I was unmade at two weeks old and I think being born
2:27
SPEAKER_01: or being adopted into a farming family in the Bay of Plenty
2:31
SPEAKER_01: was just the best lifestyle that a child could ask
2:34
SPEAKER_01: for you know we had free range all day long was the youngest of five yeah
2:41
SPEAKER_01: the great family well established in the community and it was a good life yeah
2:47
SPEAKER_00: And what was the what were you farming what was the product I diversified
2:51
SPEAKER_01: a wee bit it was mostly dairy started off with dairy I think he started
2:56
SPEAKER_01: with like 60 cows and then slowly over the years built that and then he went into
3:02
SPEAKER_01: a bit of beef he went into deer a little bit
3:05
SPEAKER_01: of sheep even tried orchard fruit growing so he yeah he had a go
3:12
SPEAKER_01: at everything I think back in those days they did didn't they they had
3:15
SPEAKER_01: to reinvent themselves a lot
3:17
SPEAKER_01: He pioneered some of the land, broke it all in from bushclad, which you don't do anymore.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, with a family of seven of us, yeah, he had a go at everything really.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's a good life.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: When did the,
3:31
SPEAKER_00: how old were you when the conversation happened in terms of learning
3:35
SPEAKER_00: that you were adopted?
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Do you remember that specifically?
3:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very much.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very much.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Sitting on the steps and outside the balcony and I was seven.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: and it was very natural it was really nice it was a nice age to hear that
3:49
SPEAKER_01: and it was probably around seven I think it's a yeah it's a big age of crossroads
3:56
SPEAKER_01: and it was then that I was thinking you know oh yeah where's my place in this family
4:03
SPEAKER_01: so maybe that's when they thought it was the right time
4:06
SPEAKER_00: and were your siblings all adopted as well no I was just I was just
4:10
SPEAKER_01: the only one they had three boys and then a girl
4:13
SPEAKER_01: and I think they didn't want to have any more boys there was the 60s lots
4:17
SPEAKER_01: of children or quite a few up for adoption in those days
4:21
SPEAKER_01: and they thought yep let's let's do this other family members had done it aunts
4:26
SPEAKER_01: and uncles had been down that track as well or farming people and had the room
4:31
SPEAKER_01: and just yeah it's just what you did I think in those days
4:36
SPEAKER_00: There's something interesting I think as well in the fact that you grew up in such
4:41
SPEAKER_00: a rural environment and those questions of identity and then landscape features
4:48
SPEAKER_00: so heavily in your work now.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Do you see a connection between your upbringing and your work and what landscape brings to you?
4:57
SPEAKER_01: I think what landscape brings to me is questions.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: I see landscape not just as a pretty picture
5:04
SPEAKER_01: I really feel I'm in tune with the weather
5:08
SPEAKER_01: and like you know here I am sitting here now I have to keep looking out
5:14
SPEAKER_01: at it it's yeah it guides me yeah landscape guides me weather nature I'm always
5:21
SPEAKER_01: telling my children you know if they're having a tough day just get out in nature go
5:24
SPEAKER_01: and feel the grass or get into the bush or just I think we can gather a lot of
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Emotion, a lot of calm, reflection, a bit of everything.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: I think we're forgetting to listen to nature.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Were you aware of its importance then when you were younger or did that come more later?
5:44
SPEAKER_00: It was more sort of as a backdrop to your childhood and part of it
5:48
SPEAKER_00: but you weren't perhaps tanking from it or did that tanking come later on?
5:53
SPEAKER_01: You know maybe my subconscious I think I spent a lot of time outside as
5:57
SPEAKER_01: a child always outside whether it was in the bush making tree huts or just on
6:02
SPEAKER_01: the farm somewhere right from seven I used to draw I'd design houses inside
6:08
SPEAKER_01: and out I didn't know then that my birth dad was an architect but learned that later
6:13
SPEAKER_01: in life
6:15
SPEAKER_01: No I think I had a fairly creative family you know it wasn't just all
6:20
SPEAKER_01: about farming I think my father drew my mother was making everything you know she
6:25
SPEAKER_01: was the real maker as most of them were in those days
6:29
SPEAKER_01: so creativity was probably always in our family as well
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Is open adoption is that the right term in terms of if you can
6:37
SPEAKER_00: then trace your birth parents and so that was something that you did you felt ready
6:42
SPEAKER_00: to do how old were you when you started that process?
6:45
SPEAKER_01: Well legally you could only search for them when you were 18
6:48
SPEAKER_01: so that's pretty much what I did actually I always had the support
6:51
SPEAKER_01: of my family support of friends and so yeah as soon as I turned 18
6:57
SPEAKER_01: or close enough I contacted social welfare
7:02
SPEAKER_01: and got a little bit of information the original birth certificate
7:06
SPEAKER_01: because throughout probably from about 11 this identity thing would come up
7:12
SPEAKER_01: and I didn't know where you know you look at yourself and where do I get all this
7:16
SPEAKER_01: from and yeah I mean just didn't really know anything about my past and
7:22
SPEAKER_01: so all I knew was she was young or she was 19 from Australia
7:29
SPEAKER_01: and yeah a little bit about him but not very much didn't even have a name
7:34
SPEAKER_01: so I think she I think I learned a little bit like she was a ballet dancer
7:39
SPEAKER_01: or something and I used to look through Australian magazines to see
7:45
SPEAKER_01: if there was anyone that looked like me I mean how bad is
7:48
SPEAKER_01: that that's pretty desperate isn't it I mean I don't recall being sad
7:52
SPEAKER_01: about it I was just inquisitive I just was curious I wanted to this identity thing
7:58
SPEAKER_00: Sounds completely, completely logical to me.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, here I am flicking through Australian Woman's Weekly to see if someone looked like me.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just crazy.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so now I finally tracked her down.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: Probably it actually was a bit hard.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: She'd moved around a lot.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: She'd been married a couple of times, changed her name.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't towards about 24 that I actually found her.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: Probably tried, started looking, looking around 21, 22 properly.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: 18 was when I just got the original birth certificate and a little bit
8:30
SPEAKER_01: of information and you know give that a few years to soak in and then away I went
8:35
SPEAKER_01: and yeah came to a lot of dead ends and my mother my adoptive mother helped me look
8:40
SPEAKER_01: and we ended up employing a private investigator back
8:44
SPEAKER_01: in those days we didn't have Facebook and you know all the other avenues now
8:48
SPEAKER_01: so that's what we did and yeah we found her in Borneo
8:52
SPEAKER_00: That experience is not always positive for people that do that.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Looking back, you say, yes, that was a positive experience.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: You were able to answer the questions that you had and move on.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Very positive.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was really lucky.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: You left school then at 16 to become a hairdresser and did that for 15 years.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: There's a tremendously creative component to hairdressing,
9:19
SPEAKER_00: but it's not always the stepping stone that you'd say for somebody that is
9:23
SPEAKER_00: then going to
9:24
SPEAKER_00: How much of what you do now can you connect back to those hairdressing experiences?
9:43
SPEAKER_01: What do I do now?
9:44
SPEAKER_01: Obviously being creative.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: I was fairly competitive as a hairdresser.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: That's the part of it I enjoyed.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: We'd go to competitions and I'd have to create something on the floor,
9:55
SPEAKER_01: you know, and I think it's the
9:59
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a clean slate or blank canvas part of it
10:04
SPEAKER_01: that I like that's what I relate it to
10:07
SPEAKER_01: when I first did art well I've always practiced art off and on over the years but
10:12
SPEAKER_01: after art school I was drawn to taking things away which I guess is what came from
10:20
SPEAKER_01: with my hairdressing cutting hair away from people so I was drawn to carving wood
10:25
SPEAKER_01: and carving stones
10:27
SPEAKER_01: So in my early days as an artist,
10:30
SPEAKER_01: I was going around garden shows and Alice Lee Flower Show
10:34
SPEAKER_01: and making stone sculptures for gardens.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of part of... And here, I was carving hair and people and life-size people.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it was just sort of a natural progression, I suppose.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: They didn't talk back, which was quite nice.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Did you have a particular category?
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Was this freestyle?
10:54
SPEAKER_00: Because I remember...
10:56
SPEAKER_00: I was a model in a hairdress dressing competition I think when I was 18 and
11:01
SPEAKER_00: the hairdresser talked me into it and told me it was going to be you know
11:04
SPEAKER_00: the men's section and
11:05
SPEAKER_00: then I think two days beforehand he told me no he changed his mind and we're going
11:09
SPEAKER_00: to be in the freestyle section which had quite a different outcome for me in terms
11:14
SPEAKER_00: of the end result but did you have a specialty?
11:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah probably open freestyle yeah like doing things that were pretty out there Men
11:22
SPEAKER_00: or women or both?
11:23
SPEAKER_01: Both yeah
11:24
SPEAKER_00: And who was easier to work with?
11:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, men are always a lot cruisier.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Women are a little bit more precious about the hair, I think.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it's just people that are up for it, really.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Up for the challenge and have a go.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: And you can fix what they don't like about it afterwards.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I think it's a good experience for everyone all around.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: You've lived in many different countries,
11:49
SPEAKER_00: and yet your work is very still and very rooted, I think, in New Zealand landscapes.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: What's the relationship between that life that you've led of constant movement and
12:01
SPEAKER_00: the art that you do that is so anchored here?
12:05
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
12:08
SPEAKER_01: I think we lived in third world countries a lot of the time.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: That's when I had...
12:14
SPEAKER_01: I think that's where I did a lot of personal growth nature was my drawcard
12:19
SPEAKER_01: because it wasn't around living in two cities in Vietnam in Delhi
12:25
SPEAKER_01: in India Malaysia they were all overwhelmingly busy of all your senses your noises
12:34
SPEAKER_01: and your smells and your people so art for me there was my release and my meditation
12:41
SPEAKER_01: with getting away from all of that
12:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean I probably put if anything I drew people in the desert with the animals
12:50
SPEAKER_01: but it was really overwhelming to be creative of what's happening around you
12:54
SPEAKER_01: because it's just too much on your senses so yeah practised the landscape was my go
13:01
SPEAKER_00: to What was the personal growth that you had in those cultures
13:05
SPEAKER_00: and why was it possible there perhaps or why was it triggered there
13:10
SPEAKER_00: then perhaps it wouldn't have been in other locations Hard
13:13
SPEAKER_01: It's back to hard isn't it you know when you're when you're doing life a bit hard is
13:17
SPEAKER_01: where you do all your growth um so yeah yeah and
13:22
SPEAKER_01: and meeting different cultures different people from all parts of
13:25
SPEAKER_01: the world I think what I loved about being an expat was that you are
13:29
SPEAKER_01: a clean slate no one knows you you can be anybody you want to be
13:34
SPEAKER_01: and that's that's great it's just yeah I loved it I love traveling like love people
13:40
SPEAKER_01: find people interesting
13:43
SPEAKER_01: And through art you're meeting all different types of people In India I opened
13:50
SPEAKER_01: a yoga studio and an art gallery,
13:52
SPEAKER_01: art space So within that we met a lot of yogis from India And a little bit
14:00
SPEAKER_01: of street children art,
14:02
SPEAKER_01: diplomatic art It brought people together, so I love that about it
14:07
SPEAKER_00: Had you been practicing yoga before you moved there or did that come from being
14:11
SPEAKER_00: on location then?
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Probably touched on it a little bit but it was more definitely India.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: We're practicing that every day.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah it was awesome.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: So good.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Many people in that sort of situation tend to either stay or go quite insular
14:26
SPEAKER_00: and only mingle in the expat community and yet you did open that studio with
14:31
SPEAKER_00: the street children sharing their art.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of
14:36
SPEAKER_00: creative generosity behind that did you think at
14:39
SPEAKER_00: the time was there something specific behind that need or that compulsion perhaps
14:45
SPEAKER_01: to do that impulse I think as a travelling spouse you are trying to find something
14:50
SPEAKER_01: of purpose yes art is always there but you're kind of striving to gel
14:58
SPEAKER_01: with people around you we lived in a normal suburb so our neighbours were Indians
15:05
SPEAKER_01: and obviously people from all over the world but
15:08
SPEAKER_01: because we were you know overseas we were Kiwis not many Kiwis it wouldn't meet many
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Kiwis when we were there but yeah I think yeah fascination it's just curious
15:21
SPEAKER_01: with people and cultures I find people interesting
15:24
SPEAKER_00: and were they already doing their own artwork and things
15:26
SPEAKER_00: or this is something you were helping them and teaching them both and
15:31
SPEAKER_00: then exhibiting and yeah yeah I met a couple
15:35
SPEAKER_01: a lovely Indian couple that were he owned like a linen company and they helped a lot
15:43
SPEAKER_01: of poor people and helped them learn to teach reading and writing in English and
15:51
SPEAKER_01: through them I would go there and sit down with some children and and listen
15:56
SPEAKER_01: to them reading English
15:59
SPEAKER_01: and through them they said well would you consider doing an art exhibition for some
16:05
SPEAKER_01: of the children that we have and some of them street children and they love art
16:09
SPEAKER_01: and I said yeah I'd love to.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: I kind of started through that way really.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Apart from purpose was there something else that that experience gave you
16:18
SPEAKER_00: that you've taken with you that you still carry with you today?
16:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh look I think just knowing that we have brought up a New Zealand and we're
16:28
SPEAKER_01: so lucky you've got to give back don't you?
16:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, crazy.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit of expectation when you're a trailing spouse and you have time is
16:39
SPEAKER_01: to, yeah, help people around you.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's right in your face every day.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: There were beggars knocking at our door most mornings, asking for things.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Every time you go out in the car,
16:51
SPEAKER_01: stop at the traffic lights, these children begging for something.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: How can you not do help, you know, do a little bit?
16:59
SPEAKER_00: It's not always easy though in that situation a lot of people then evolve or devolve
17:04
SPEAKER_00: to whatever the local setting is and basically stop seeing that or stop being aware
17:09
SPEAKER_00: of it I'm thinking of South Africa and what I experienced there and seeing people
17:14
SPEAKER_00: that were able to live in the most amazing locations but just sort of backing on
17:20
SPEAKER_00: to people in just the most terrible poverty and to be able to reconcile that
17:25
SPEAKER_00: for themselves and they just didn't see it anymore and I
17:28
SPEAKER_00: You've struggled with the concept,
17:31
SPEAKER_00: but I imagine that when you are in it, that's maybe one way to get through it.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: For a lot of people, that's what they do because of the weight of what you see and experience.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: You can understand why people just become numb to it, for sure.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: But they also throw a lot of too much of one thing at it as well.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: A lot of it doesn't work.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: and it just keeps going back to how it always has been how it was so it is
17:58
SPEAKER_01: a vicious circle people think they're helping um
18:02
SPEAKER_01: the people i saw they they were poor
18:04
SPEAKER_01: but often they were actually quite happy they're very accepting and i think
18:08
SPEAKER_01: that was one
18:09
SPEAKER_01: of my biggest lessons was they accept their what they're what they're born
18:13
SPEAKER_01: into their birthright it's probably only really just in the last
18:17
SPEAKER_01: Last Generation that the you know
18:19
SPEAKER_01: the maybe 30 40 year olds now are studying well we want this we want you know
18:24
SPEAKER_01: they've got the phones and they've got this and they've got that but mostly
18:28
SPEAKER_01: that they were so accepting of their fate and who they were
18:32
SPEAKER_01: which you know again there's something to learn in
18:34
SPEAKER_01: that isn't there that's another culture
18:35
SPEAKER_01: that you you learn yeah actually don't always have to have all these material things
18:41
SPEAKER_01: and we're okay yeah
18:44
SPEAKER_00: You also, during that time, you homeschooled your children over multiple continents.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: What did that experience teach you?
18:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, we love adventure.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: We do like doing it a bit hard.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: We don't like being too comfortable in life.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: And we... Why did we do it?
19:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess we were working over there.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, we...
19:09
SPEAKER_01: We want our children to learn through doing I mean for me school wasn't my thing in
19:14
SPEAKER_01: a big way I went to school for art and sport My husband's very open
19:19
SPEAKER_01: to how we live our life He likes a bit of adventure
19:22
SPEAKER_01: as well Luckily his work took him to these countries
19:26
SPEAKER_01: and I always said yep I'm up for it let's go let's have an adventure and then
19:32
SPEAKER_01: the children came along and we did the same with them so whether we were working in
19:36
SPEAKER_01: that country or traveling I think it's just for us that's
19:39
SPEAKER_01: where we did our best learning yeah just yeah seeing other cultures
19:44
SPEAKER_01: and you know it's most I think a lot of people here
19:47
SPEAKER_01: in Monika are very similar aren't they it's true come from somewhere else
19:52
SPEAKER_01: and yeah back to beauty
19:56
SPEAKER_00: You also adopted,
19:57
SPEAKER_00: so you adopted your children,
19:59
SPEAKER_00: which came relatively quickly,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: I think,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: in terms of when you got the call,
20:03
SPEAKER_00: I think it was four days later,
20:05
SPEAKER_00: and I think the call came, was it on the day that Neville had designed his job?
20:09
SPEAKER_00: There was a lot going on.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Can you take me back to that time, what was going on?
20:15
SPEAKER_00: That must have been an emotional rollercoaster,
20:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming, the attempts to have biological children and the frustrations.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: Disappointments associated with that and then the decision and
20:27
SPEAKER_00: then suddenly you're off to the races how was that yeah it's funny
20:32
SPEAKER_01: because our life kind of followed us around like that
20:34
SPEAKER_01: where decisions were made very quickly
20:37
SPEAKER_01: The Unmaking
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Living on a lifestyle block in the Bay of Plenty with animals and we had lots
21:02
SPEAKER_01: of different animals.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: Nine sheep, a pig, a donkey.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: What else did we have?
21:10
SPEAKER_00: A cat.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: You know just had the perfect set up to have a family and then family wasn't coming.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: So we thought well okay it's not coming, let's consider adoption, let's consider surrogacy.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: all those things we did IVF that failed so we kind
21:29
SPEAKER_01: of thought well nothing's happening we're on the adoption profile where you go
21:35
SPEAKER_01: to these courses and they find out everything about you and you have to fit
21:41
SPEAKER_01: the profile but what was good is that was the mother the birth mother
21:44
SPEAKER_01: that chose you sent in I think they'd send profiles to a birth mother
21:51
SPEAKER_01: So you're kind of you know one out of 12 are we going to get picked
21:54
SPEAKER_01: because this isn't
21:55
SPEAKER_01: that long ago this is 23 24 years ago adoptions weren't happening very often
22:01
SPEAKER_01: so we thought oh well we've got to try and I think we had been on that on
22:05
SPEAKER_01: that profile for about three or four months and we got the call
22:08
SPEAKER_01: and we were thinking oh it'll take ages and it'll probably never happen and
22:13
SPEAKER_01: so let's do something different you know we'll let's apply for another job
22:17
SPEAKER_01: and go head down south
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Let's go to Christchurch there was a job offer there my husband accepted it was in
22:23
SPEAKER_01: the morning that he resigned and he was having lunch with the boss because they got
22:29
SPEAKER_01: on well and then I got a call in the afternoon and they said lady has chosen you two
22:36
SPEAKER_01: to be be the mother who her son who was born on Christmas day
22:41
SPEAKER_01: and he could potentially be with you in four days
22:47
SPEAKER_01: And when you hear people,
22:48
SPEAKER_01: you know, the terminology saying jumping for joy, I seriously was jumping for joy.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: It was just right out there, you know.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: It was awesome.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: It was really cool because we just wanted to be parents.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: So I rang my husband and...
23:03
SPEAKER_01: he said come on down join us for lunch celebrate the boss's wife joined us
23:11
SPEAKER_01: and we celebrated and yeah and it just yeah we're still good friends with them
23:16
SPEAKER_01: and you know this is coming up 25 years ago
23:19
SPEAKER_01: and yeah it was all started
23:21
SPEAKER_01: from there really I mean we left I think it was two weeks later
23:24
SPEAKER_01: or it might have been a bit no it was longer it was about six weeks later
23:28
SPEAKER_01: that we left for Christchurch with our newborn with our son he was about no he was
23:33
SPEAKER_01: a bit older he was about six six weeks old by then we'd had him for two weeks
23:38
SPEAKER_01: so what happened it wasn't the four days after all
23:41
SPEAKER_01: They were worried the birth mum might have been changing her mind
23:45
SPEAKER_01: so they just held back for a little bit and we got him when he was six weeks so
23:49
SPEAKER_01: that was a very nervous time but it happened so we moved down to Christchurch and
23:55
SPEAKER_01: then ate
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Eight months later my doctor said to me would you consider adopting again
24:00
SPEAKER_01: and I said yes and he said well this one's a bit complicated but you know
24:06
SPEAKER_01: if you're keen I'll give you some more details yeah
24:09
SPEAKER_01: so eight months later we got our daughter from Wellington went up there and met
24:13
SPEAKER_01: the birth parents and um yeah 11 days later we brought her home
24:19
SPEAKER_00: That's a pretty fast turnaround.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: What's the briefing process like?
24:25
SPEAKER_00: And did you compare that to your parents' experience in terms of how the authorities
24:30
SPEAKER_00: then prepared you then for this new life and this new person coming into your lives
24:35
SPEAKER_00: and all the challenges associated with that?
24:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't think there was much briefing in the day for me because there was a lot
24:42
SPEAKER_01: of adoptions in the 60s.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: I know they actually kept it a secret from everybody because
24:49
SPEAKER_01: One of my siblings One of the brothers Brian He actually thought They were going up
24:54
SPEAKER_01: to Auckland To buy a new tractor And they came back with a baby Wow That was
25:03
SPEAKER_01: a good Interesting one But no I don't know I don't know
25:07
SPEAKER_01: the difference now Yeah I was Yeah Couldn't answer
25:11
SPEAKER_00: that one I think it was pretty quiet If your body of work Had a soundtrack
25:19
SPEAKER_00: What sort of genre or mood would that be?
25:23
SPEAKER_01: It would actually probably just be the piano Nothing else I don't know why I like
25:28
SPEAKER_01: that I like the space that a piano delivers And it just lingers on
25:33
SPEAKER_00: the notes Ragtime,
25:36
SPEAKER_00: classic, jazz,
25:39
SPEAKER_00: any sort of direction It's more the instrument,
25:41
SPEAKER_00: the notes, the tonality that can come out from that instrument More the notes, yeah
25:48
SPEAKER_00: Does that differ depending on what you're listening to in the studio when you're working?
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Is that your go-to music?
25:56
SPEAKER_01: No, it's not my go-to music actually.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: My go-to music is probably blues and jazz.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: It depends on my mood.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: It's a bit of everything.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: I like to think I like a bit of everything.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: Nothing too head-bashy because that does my head in.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: But no, I like all sorts of music.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Not very musical myself.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Had a go at the violin with the children when they were little.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a torturous instrument, isn't it?
26:25
SPEAKER_00: When you're learning or you're having to listen to somebody learning the violin,
26:29
SPEAKER_00: I think there's fewer instruments that are perhaps more torturous.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Perhaps my husband should have had a go at it as well then.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so no, music is just pretty standard for me, yeah.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: Several times you've either chosen to start or be part of artist-led collectives,
26:52
SPEAKER_00: rather than being represented by commercial galleries.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: I understand the business logic to that,
26:59
SPEAKER_00: in terms of direct to consumer,
27:01
SPEAKER_00: vertical integration, market access, those sorts of things spring to mind.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Did you think of it in those terms or what was behind those and what is behind those decisions?
27:11
SPEAKER_00: You're now part of the ATA collective in Lugget, part of starting that.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: It's probably through just the change of the art scene I mean I did supply a lot
27:20
SPEAKER_01: of galleries around New Zealand for probably most of my art career up to 20
27:25
SPEAKER_01: or 15 20 years and that's just changed over the years there's a lot
27:30
SPEAKER_01: of artists out there they don't have the big openings like they used
27:33
SPEAKER_01: to they don't represent you the same I think I think it just goes up
27:39
SPEAKER_01: and down there's a cycle and
27:42
SPEAKER_01: I think you know for me personally anyway I just felt they didn't represent me
27:47
SPEAKER_01: the same as what they used to do and so you kind of find your own way and
27:52
SPEAKER_00: if you walk into a commercial gallery now do you feel a part of that world or does
27:57
SPEAKER_00: that feel like a different world to you now if you look at the work that's
28:00
SPEAKER_00: in there how it's being communicated how it's priced how do you relate to that
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Some of
28:07
SPEAKER_01: the big commercial ones definitely I feel like why am I bothering this is just
28:11
SPEAKER_01: really cool work and it's big prices and it's like I'll never that'll never be me
28:18
SPEAKER_01: but then it's like well that's not what I do art for
28:21
SPEAKER_01: I do art for me and for a form of communication and I mean the icing on the cake
28:28
SPEAKER_01: for sure is when somebody purchases your work it's a real honour
28:32
SPEAKER_01: to have someone actually fork out money but for me it's that connection with
28:36
SPEAKER_01: that person I mean I love to talk
28:39
SPEAKER_01: and I actually like to talk about not so much about myself which is weird today
28:44
SPEAKER_01: but I like to just chew the fat about life and people and why
28:48
SPEAKER_01: and you know it's we don't get that chance so much anymore and so working in
28:53
SPEAKER_01: the Atae Collective people come in and they see you painting and we stand together
28:59
SPEAKER_01: and we chat about stuff all sorts of things it's amazing what people
29:03
SPEAKER_01: you know because we're just sitting there that we are available and I love that
29:07
SPEAKER_01: about art I love being available in the public space where people feel safe
29:12
SPEAKER_01: and they can have a chat with us we're losing that that's a big drive for me is
29:19
SPEAKER_01: to try and be in more of a public environment with our art as a person as well
29:24
SPEAKER_01: as just my work
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Has that decision to be more direct,
29:30
SPEAKER_00: to have that contact directly with those people that then are purchasing your art,
29:34
SPEAKER_00: has that cost you anything in terms of access to a certain type of collector
29:39
SPEAKER_00: or curator or is there a version of your career that would be different
29:43
SPEAKER_00: if you hadn't chosen that route?
29:47
SPEAKER_01: Good question I don't know It's weird where people see your work I've been around
29:53
SPEAKER_01: for a while and I think your work sits on walls and it's signed
29:58
SPEAKER_01: and people see it I don't know where I mean you know you get asked from all sorts
30:04
SPEAKER_01: of Waiheke Island and Auckland and all sorts of places I don't know
30:07
SPEAKER_01: where people find your work I don't know when you win
30:09
SPEAKER_01: an award why did they choose my work you know
30:15
SPEAKER_01: It's just something you accept and go with the flow.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: I think talent probably has a lot to do it.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: That's why people choose your work and why you win awards.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: One of your prize-winning works,
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Gathering of Nature,
30:28
SPEAKER_00: came from a helicopter flight around, I think it was 15 years ago.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Your son, around the time, I think 11, had a serious head injury.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: You're in the helicopter flying there.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: What must have been intensely stressful and worrying time,
30:43
SPEAKER_00: but you're taking photographs out the window of clouds.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Which I think says something about you perhaps as an artist What was going
30:51
SPEAKER_00: through your head at the time?
30:52
SPEAKER_01: His mother's intuition I knew he was okay Well I hoped he was okay Well opportunist
31:00
SPEAKER_01: It's not very often every day you get to sit in a helicopter and the time of
31:04
SPEAKER_01: the day was perfect for taking photos I was taking all the complicated bits out
31:10
SPEAKER_01: and that's another little bit for me is why I paint is I do like taking
31:15
SPEAKER_01: the complicated bits out because life is full of complications
31:19
SPEAKER_01: the helicopter trip yes that was there was complicated things going on
31:23
SPEAKER_01: but I seriously knew my son was okay
31:27
SPEAKER_01: and I wasn't stressing because we had two paramedics in the helicopter on the way
31:31
SPEAKER_01: to Dunedin and they were all over it they knew he was fine too
31:36
SPEAKER_01: but just doing you know all the checks so that was yeah it was
31:41
SPEAKER_01: an opportunity I thought no I don't get this chance very often
31:44
SPEAKER_01: and it just felt right yeah you've got to keep that door open don't you and
31:49
SPEAKER_01: the weirdest of times and places so
31:52
SPEAKER_00: And were you taking those photographs with the idea,
31:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to paint this, or did that come later?
31:58
SPEAKER_00: And if so, then how much later?
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah it came later it came quite a few years later but my visual diaries are full
32:05
SPEAKER_01: as I mean I've got so many photos that are potential paintings and
32:10
SPEAKER_01: if they're still lingering there five ten years away
32:13
SPEAKER_01: and it still lights something up in me
32:16
SPEAKER_01: then I think yeah this is probably worth pursuing I still like this I still get
32:21
SPEAKER_01: that emotion in it it takes me back or it makes me feel this way so I'm going
32:26
SPEAKER_01: to paint it the
32:29
SPEAKER_01: At the time it was Lake Onslow that I painted but it was ironic that it was not long
32:37
SPEAKER_01: after that they came out in the news that that was potentially going to be
32:42
SPEAKER_01: a power source so that was going to change it I don't know whether I think there's
32:49
SPEAKER_01: a bit in our subconscious that we pick up on in the news and just around us
32:54
SPEAKER_01: as artists and it's lingering in the back of our minds to
32:58
SPEAKER_01: to paint one day it just was timing but yeah it was
33:03
SPEAKER_01: a water source that's really important up there and it looked awesome
33:08
SPEAKER_01: so yeah it was almost like it was speaking to me What's a visual diary what does
33:14
SPEAKER_00: that look like?
33:16
SPEAKER_01: A Lot Of Photos And I've Usually Edited Them Whenever I Get A Chance I'll Edit Them
33:21
SPEAKER_01: And I'll Change Things Around It's Probably Also Words
33:28
SPEAKER_01: That I Like Clippings Magazines Life People Visual So Rather
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Than Writing It All Down In Words In A Diary It's It's Endless Amounts Of Files
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Of Photos
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Analog, so printouts?
33:46
SPEAKER_01: No, it's in my phone.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: It's digital?
33:49
SPEAKER_00: I file it all away.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: And is this a daily practice?
33:52
SPEAKER_00: Weekly, monthly, sporadic?
33:53
SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely daily.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: Can't help it.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: Can't help it.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: That's just what we do.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: How long have you been doing that for?
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Years.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: And is this something that you learnt during your studies?
34:05
SPEAKER_01: No no no through your studies I think at art school we well I have got
34:09
SPEAKER_01: a visual I mean a diary paper diary
34:12
SPEAKER_01: but I just hardly ever use it it's it's been used a lot in the past but not now
34:16
SPEAKER_01: so much I've sort
34:18
SPEAKER_01: of found my way now you know it's like yeah okay that's what they tell you to do
34:21
SPEAKER_01: and draw every day paint every day but no that doesn't work for me I need
34:27
SPEAKER_01: to research every day I need to stop rest and absorb
34:32
SPEAKER_00: And then going back to that content from the past, what does that look like?
34:36
SPEAKER_00: Are you going specifically back to say that what was happening this time last year,
34:41
SPEAKER_00: or I haven't gone and had a look or flick through things recently, go back through?
34:46
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
34:47
SPEAKER_00: Or do you remember something specifically that you want to go and look at?
34:51
SPEAKER_01: I do go back to a lot of photos because it's the feeling I have it's the mood I'm
34:57
SPEAKER_01: in it's the conversations I've had with somebody
35:00
SPEAKER_01: and I think aha I remember I've taken a shot of
35:03
SPEAKER_01: that you know it's just yeah it's all there I mean a lot is in our heads as well
35:09
SPEAKER_01: so I guess a bit gets forgotten but a yoga teacher taught me
35:13
SPEAKER_01: that your memory is okay when you forget things it's the important things
35:17
SPEAKER_01: that you remember so it's okay to forget a lot too
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Are you still working in wood carving and stone or is this now your work has evolved
35:28
SPEAKER_00: to become it's less about taking things away and it's more about creating things
35:32
SPEAKER_01: and bringing things together yeah yeah no that well that's probably more of
35:37
SPEAKER_01: a practical reason I stopped carving because I love it I'm still drawn to carving um
35:42
SPEAKER_01: but we live in an apartment now so it's messy and noisy and yeah
35:48
SPEAKER_01: Stone was a bit more of a fashion as well, sculpture.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Now it's more metal work.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think there's really a place for,
35:56
SPEAKER_01: you know, you've got to have a bit of a commercial aspect in you too.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: You want to sell your work if you want to keep going to a point.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: I think for me,
36:04
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to prove to my husband when I was 30,
36:10
SPEAKER_01: I'd had enough of hairdressing and clothing.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: I've always tapered with painting and drawing but I wanted to prove to him
36:18
SPEAKER_01: that there's more to it than just a hobby I want to do art school I want to do this
36:24
SPEAKER_01: as my next job this is what I love so there was a bit of a drive to prove to him
36:29
SPEAKER_01: that yeah this isn't just a hobby this isn't just a thing
36:33
SPEAKER_00: And how natural or organic was his support in that situation?
36:38
SPEAKER_00: Was this something that he immediately said, yeah, 100% this is important to you?
36:42
SPEAKER_00: No, not straight away.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, at the time $4,000 was a lot of money.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, that's, you know, stopping work.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: So yeah it was a full time for a year it was only a year
36:56
SPEAKER_01: but no it paid off it was great yeah it worked for
37:00
SPEAKER_01: the first student exhibition everything sold I had a great gallery
37:04
SPEAKER_01: that represented me and just yeah it was just yep this is where I want to go
37:10
SPEAKER_00: and no periods of doubt through that initial process and learning in terms
37:14
SPEAKER_00: of oh have I really done the right thing here have I bitten off too much to chew
37:18
SPEAKER_00: or is this the wrong direction
37:20
SPEAKER_01: As an artist there's always a bit
37:22
SPEAKER_01: of doubt yeah we always think we're not good enough but it's what I love
37:28
SPEAKER_01: so we just you know you keep striving forward with it it is a shame
37:33
SPEAKER_01: when people stop being creative I think we all need to be whatever we do isn't it
37:37
SPEAKER_01: and it's not always the right time and it's not always the best produced piece
37:44
SPEAKER_01: of work but it's also how it's made me feel
37:50
SPEAKER_01: And there's always somebody else that feels that same way.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, and I think you can pass it on through your work.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: It's a real honour, really.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: People get it.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: They get it.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: Gathering of Nature was an aerial perspective from the helicopter or from above,
38:08
SPEAKER_00: but you paint a lot of trees under the mantra of people should look up more.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: What's behind that?
38:18
SPEAKER_00: Why do you want people to look up more?
38:20
SPEAKER_01: Probably back to nature.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit about keeping your chin up as well.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: But it's also we get bogged down in the nitty gritty of everyday life.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: And I think if we can just,
38:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
38:35
SPEAKER_01: stop getting into what you're getting into,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: and it's usually looking down at something,
38:39
SPEAKER_01: whether it's a computer or a book or something, just stop, look up, keep looking up.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: I just think we're forgetting that.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: We're looking down too much, aren't we?
38:52
SPEAKER_00: You're known I think now primarily as a landscape artist which brings us
38:57
SPEAKER_00: about stillness and calm which I think you talk about and yet if I look
39:01
SPEAKER_00: at your work there's some things that perhaps speak to me and it's a little bit
39:07
SPEAKER_00: of foreboding or melancholy or sadness maybe or almost a warning in some ways
39:14
SPEAKER_00: Am I outing myself like a sort of a Rorschach kind of ink test kind of way or is
39:20
SPEAKER_00: that something that is actually yes that is in there yeah it is in there yeah I am
39:25
SPEAKER_01: a bit worried about the world yeah there is a heaviness about it
39:30
SPEAKER_01: and that's probably what I've been painting a bit lately yeah yeah it just comes out
39:35
SPEAKER_01: of us you know it comes out of how I feel I actually can't help paint what I paint
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Do you know that at the beginning if you're looking at a landscape or does that come
39:45
SPEAKER_00: during the process then while you're painting it that those emotions come through
39:49
SPEAKER_00: as part of the work while you're creating it?
39:53
SPEAKER_01: All of the above yeah right from the beginning right to the end but I do tend
39:58
SPEAKER_01: to lose myself I try really hard not to overthink it and just let it be
40:02
SPEAKER_01: but there's got to be a trigger to get me started it's inspiration and that's big
40:08
SPEAKER_01: And then you've got the whole painting,
40:11
SPEAKER_01: your technique, your composition, your choice of colours, your subject.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: That's why research is really important and how I'm feeling and how I'm feeling
40:21
SPEAKER_01: about the world, not just myself, my inner self.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: It's about what's going on around us.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: On the daily or on a more sort of a general kind of level or is this like
40:30
SPEAKER_00: if you painted this landscape if you painted this today would that with exactly
40:36
SPEAKER_00: that same weather and outlook if you painted that today would that be
40:39
SPEAKER_00: a different painting than if you painted it in two weeks time
40:42
SPEAKER_01: or two weeks ago It would be more around the current you know maybe over
40:47
SPEAKER_01: the last couple of years you know my paintings or maybe
40:50
SPEAKER_01: the last year it's all subject to the environment around me
40:54
SPEAKER_01: and I found that even in stone carving
41:15
SPEAKER_01: and you really can't make too many mistakes in stone carving but you kind
41:18
SPEAKER_01: of just had this intuitive feel that yeah let it let it you know just go
41:24
SPEAKER_01: with it you know let it do its thing a little bit more freeform
41:28
SPEAKER_01: a little bit more abstract I think for me personally I think my work can be
41:32
SPEAKER_01: a bit tight so I'm forever trying to loosen up
41:36
SPEAKER_01: and make it more abstract I think we need to have more of an abstract view on
41:40
SPEAKER_01: the world and for some reason I keep going back to being tight
41:43
SPEAKER_00: You used the term or the qualifier semi or quasi surreal
41:48
SPEAKER_00: which I thought was interesting so if I look
41:50
SPEAKER_00: at your work I would initially say I don't see a lot of surrealism but is
41:54
SPEAKER_00: the semi surrealist is that coming through the emotion that you're experiencing or
41:59
SPEAKER_00: that you're injecting or infusing into the work I think
42:02
SPEAKER_01: so yeah I can't really answer that
42:06
SPEAKER_01: to be honest it's just like you just do what you do I can't put a label
42:10
SPEAKER_01: on it I can't put a name on it
42:13
SPEAKER_01: I call it semi-surreal because it's not real it's not a photo taken it's not true
42:23
SPEAKER_01: to life it's an emotion in my work I guess is the semi-surreal
42:28
SPEAKER_00: for me You've been painting New Zealand landscapes for
42:33
SPEAKER_00: a long time now how is your relationship to the land and to the landscape and
42:38
SPEAKER_00: to Aotearoa how has that changed over that period?
42:46
SPEAKER_01: How has it changed
42:47
SPEAKER_01: over just throughout my art career do you mean I think it's probably my surroundings
42:54
SPEAKER_01: yeah yeah we were pretty sensitive to our surroundings like when I lived in in
43:01
SPEAKER_01: the North Island we lived more near the ocean so I probably painted more oceans
43:06
SPEAKER_01: you know the environment of the mountains here I think that it speaks
43:10
SPEAKER_01: to me more down here
43:12
SPEAKER_01: for me mountains everything represents something mountains represent permanence
43:17
SPEAKER_01: and stability trees represent you know the foundation of who we are
43:22
SPEAKER_01: and branching out and into different realms of living water is serenity if it's calm
43:30
SPEAKER_01: because that's the first word because it's calm today but you know what what um
43:36
SPEAKER_01: All the different meanings of what nature is.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: So it depends on where I'm at with what's happening in an environment around me.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: What about the figures that you sometimes incorporate in your work?
43:49
SPEAKER_00: I think you use the term guardians.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: Are they protecting the land from us?
43:54
SPEAKER_00: Are they protecting us?
43:55
SPEAKER_00: What are they guarding or what's their role?
43:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah it is it's just guardians of the land for me it is remembering the past they're
44:05
SPEAKER_01: a little bit ghostly looking I think that's remembering the people that have come
44:09
SPEAKER_01: before us and all shapes and sizes and cultures and just just remembering
44:19
SPEAKER_01: and you know this is everybody's land we're all in it together and
44:27
SPEAKER_01: You know just think about the future with that I suppose is
44:29
SPEAKER_01: by remembering who's been here before us.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: You've also illustrated a children's book so Shrek the world famous merino
44:39
SPEAKER_00: that evaded shearing for a few years and then produced a world record fleece.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: Do you know how many copies of that book have been sold now?
44:48
SPEAKER_01: No I don't know I'm not up to date with it but there was a couple
44:51
SPEAKER_01: of 50,000 copies stickers there a long time ago so I don't know how many now yeah
44:56
SPEAKER_00: a lot and I think it's also in Te Papa as well is that right yeah I think
45:00
SPEAKER_01: so yeah this is a wee while ago now so it's still out there on the shelves
45:06
SPEAKER_01: so that's cool that's good
45:08
SPEAKER_00: How did you find that working in that format and for that audience?
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Really hard.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a watercolourist.
45:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm not an illustrator.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: It was really hard and we had to have it out in six weeks time.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: So our children were still in nappies when that happened and it was a fundraiser for
45:25
SPEAKER_01: the local Terrace School.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: So they took the children in and the children at school taught how to change nappies
45:33
SPEAKER_01: because I dropped them off there and I wanted to race back home
45:37
SPEAKER_01: to our little old caravan and have a go at illustrating a book,
45:42
SPEAKER_01: a children's book It was an awesome time because we were all in it together
45:46
SPEAKER_01: The children had their bit,
45:49
SPEAKER_01: the teachers were very involved,
45:51
SPEAKER_01: the community, it was a real team effort, it was really cool
45:56
SPEAKER_00: And were you relatively new to the community at
45:58
SPEAKER_01: that point were you I think yeah maybe we'd been there for a year year and
46:02
SPEAKER_01: a half perhaps two years yeah that was just at Terrace and just such
46:08
SPEAKER_01: a lovely farming community felt very embraced what's lovely yeah
46:13
SPEAKER_00: I think that also enabled the school to to fund a second full-time teacher
46:18
SPEAKER_00: which must have been pretty satisfying at the time yeah yeah no it did
46:23
SPEAKER_01: that was very cool and the trips that we had with Shrek we took him to Auckland
46:29
SPEAKER_01: and I mean I just it was just such a fun time yeah the children got a lot out of it
46:34
SPEAKER_01: with the computers and the extra teacher and I don't I mean this is going back
46:39
SPEAKER_01: How long 15 years ago now I don't know it would be interesting
46:43
SPEAKER_01: to find out how how that's still ticking along how it's still helping
46:46
SPEAKER_01: the school I mean that those were one of the best um I mean at the time there was
46:51
SPEAKER_01: a lot of work put involved by parents and teachers and students but
46:57
SPEAKER_01: that was something for them all to be proud of so
47:00
SPEAKER_00: I think in many ways that sheep really put Taris on the world map didn't it and also
47:06
SPEAKER_00: as a tourist destination and what's there now in the little village and
47:09
SPEAKER_00: the statue there of Shrek so I'm assuming that book is still being sold there maybe
47:15
SPEAKER_01: in different languages I'm not sure whether they've translated it I don't know
47:20
SPEAKER_01: where there is now but there was then so very cool
47:24
SPEAKER_00: What role does politics play in your work?
47:28
SPEAKER_00: And you talked about the environment,
47:29
SPEAKER_00: the importance of it to you,
47:31
SPEAKER_00: Lake Onslow,
47:32
SPEAKER_00: those sorts of issues,
47:34
SPEAKER_00: talking about tariffs,
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Bendigo Station, what's happening there with mining down here.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: Where do you stand with politics and introducing messaging into your work?
47:45
SPEAKER_01: Very quietly.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not politically driven.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: I do care about the land.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: I also care about the economy.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: about putting food on the table for people I care about protecting the land
48:00
SPEAKER_01: so I can see there's a way forward for it to work
48:05
SPEAKER_01: for everybody you know I think politically you've got to try and make it work
48:10
SPEAKER_01: for everybody and for me I think you've got to be able to see a little bit
48:15
SPEAKER_01: of yourself and everyone you know this is the sad state of
48:19
SPEAKER_01: the world isn't it I think they've forgotten to have a look at themselves
48:23
SPEAKER_01: within their enemy
48:25
SPEAKER_01: We're all kind of the same really at the end of the day so is it just a lot
48:30
SPEAKER_01: of egos floating around or what is it I'm always questioning that I get frustrated
48:37
SPEAKER_01: but whether or not it comes across my work I don't try to sometimes it sneaks
48:43
SPEAKER_00: in You've lived in Wanaka for a while now what role has this town and its landscapes
48:50
SPEAKER_00: and its people played in your life and your work People are real
48:56
SPEAKER_01: The people here People real or the trying to be and they're just embracing life
49:02
SPEAKER_01: and having a good time most people have chosen to live here and that's refreshing
49:09
SPEAKER_01: But for me I think we just do a lot of learning through nature so
49:13
SPEAKER_01: if times are tough get up in the hills get out in the lake just walk on
49:19
SPEAKER_01: the grass just whatever you know I think nature's right at our doorstep
49:23
SPEAKER_01: so we have no excuses it's always going to be tough wherever you live
49:28
SPEAKER_01: on those tough times shit happens in life and if we can embrace nature and make
49:34
SPEAKER_01: the most of it keep looking up and getting out there
49:38
SPEAKER_01: The world's got to be a better place I think sadly everyone's moving to
49:41
SPEAKER_01: the cities more and more and you don't get that chance to look up and stop
49:46
SPEAKER_01: and feel nature and even perhaps get out into the rain and feel it onto your face
49:52
SPEAKER_01: or be creative but not everybody's creative
49:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: I think everybody has the potential to be creative.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: It's in there.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: It's whether or not you let it out or you're perhaps in an environment
50:07
SPEAKER_00: that brings it out or there's somebody in your personal environment that can help
50:12
SPEAKER_00: to facilitate that.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: It's true.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: And when I teach, have the opportunity to teach children off and on over the years.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: It's back to what an art teacher told us once was it's all really about mark making.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: doesn't have to be the perfect picture you don't have to be
50:31
SPEAKER_01: a great drawer just make some marks I think it will be really interesting to see
50:36
SPEAKER_00: in terms of the children that are growing up now with I mean we used to talk about
50:40
SPEAKER_00: the one-eyed babysitter back in the day but that was television but you know now
50:45
SPEAKER_00: in terms of the amount of particularly short form video that I think is
50:50
SPEAKER_00: an imagination killer for children in terms of how that's going
50:54
SPEAKER_00: to impact their creativity how do you look at that?
50:57
SPEAKER_01: yeah big time yes yep how can we not
51:01
SPEAKER_01: when you know I'm you know 60s baby we were just no one knew where we were through
51:06
SPEAKER_01: the day we're out and about playing and building things and
51:10
SPEAKER_01: So it's a big contrast and trying to understand where the good is
51:14
SPEAKER_01: in it yes I get there is some good stuff but it's back to balance there's too much
51:20
SPEAKER_01: of it there's no kids running around outside on the streets there's got to be
51:24
SPEAKER_01: a balance yeah a little bit's fine but it's just gone too far
51:29
SPEAKER_01: the other way there's got to be better policies and restrictions and I'm just sad
51:35
SPEAKER_01: that didn't happen straight away I don't get why people didn't see it coming
51:39
SPEAKER_00: and we still haven't changed it we're still talking about changing it
51:43
SPEAKER_00: but yeah it's taking a little bit too long and nothing fills my heart more
51:47
SPEAKER_00: than seeing young kids on the side of
51:49
SPEAKER_00: the river going fishing out there doing old school activities in nature having
51:53
SPEAKER_00: a great time with their mates and you know we're in the bike parks here
51:57
SPEAKER_00: and doing things playing basically yeah that's right
52:02
SPEAKER_00: I think you used the mantra stop pause reflect how much of that comes
52:05
SPEAKER_00: from your yoga background and that contact with Indian culture no it was way before
52:12
SPEAKER_01: then it was really when I first started being
52:15
SPEAKER_01: an artist I think well first perfect you know properly full time in so maybe
52:22
SPEAKER_01: after going through infertility and
52:27
SPEAKER_01: Trying to be creative in another way it made me really made me stop and reflect
52:33
SPEAKER_01: on things and I had
52:37
SPEAKER_01: to just absorb my emotions it was pretty rollercoaster time not being able
52:43
SPEAKER_01: to have children and trying and so that kind of did become my mantra yeah I felt
52:50
SPEAKER_01: that was really important to stop and I think maybe living in because before
52:57
SPEAKER_01: Before we had children we did live in Asia as well and I definitely learned
53:01
SPEAKER_01: a lot there how they did work slower and they did stop and there was
53:09
SPEAKER_01: so much hardship and yeah I did a lot of learning there and I just get frustrated
53:14
SPEAKER_01: that people are so busy they just don't stop our minds are going crazy
53:22
SPEAKER_01: We just don't stop enough because it's that that is the best time is to have
53:29
SPEAKER_01: on reflection time thinking time yes you can overthink but having the ability
53:36
SPEAKER_01: to find time to stop and reflect and absorb what you're thinking it's got
53:42
SPEAKER_01: to make some good positive changes we're not acting on impulse and reactivity
53:48
SPEAKER_00: Did you have a good support network back then or was it just you and Nev
53:51
SPEAKER_00: that were basically you had each other that you could talk to about that or
53:55
SPEAKER_00: where were we at as a New Zealand society in terms of being able to talk openly
53:59
SPEAKER_00: about infertility and the challenges of trying to have children
54:03
SPEAKER_01: but perhaps not being able to yeah so that was 25 30 years ago so not a lot
54:08
SPEAKER_01: of talk there no no there wasn't but we had family support yeah it was really cool
54:14
SPEAKER_01: On both sides of the family and we had lots of nieces and nephews too
54:18
SPEAKER_01: which sometimes made it harder but no we felt very supportive more
54:23
SPEAKER_01: within our close circles of family and friends so it's cool
54:29
SPEAKER_00: How do you maintain your balance in terms of taking the time to stop,
54:32
SPEAKER_00: pause and reflect,
54:33
SPEAKER_00: particularly when you're in flow state and the work's coming
54:36
SPEAKER_00: and maybe you're getting a little bit late at night?
54:39
SPEAKER_00: Do you have to force yourself to stop or is it basically,
54:42
SPEAKER_00: no, this is it, it's happening, I'm on, let's go?
54:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to force yourself because you're really hungry and your neck
54:49
SPEAKER_01: and your back is killing you because you haven't looked up.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: It's two o'clock in the morning but yeah you absolutely lose yourself in it
54:58
SPEAKER_01: for sure yeah goto creative juices when they come
55:04
SPEAKER_00: So you've obviously experienced several what I sort of think of as unmakings
55:09
SPEAKER_00: during your life and your career and you're aware of them that's also I think part
55:12
SPEAKER_00: of it is sometimes you're not aware of them when they're happening sometimes
55:15
SPEAKER_00: that comes with the benefit of hindsight but those things have happened in order
55:20
SPEAKER_00: for you to become the person and the artist you are now are you the finished article
55:25
SPEAKER_00: or is there more evolution and revolutions still to come?
55:29
SPEAKER_01: Right through to the dying day I think there will always be learnings
55:33
SPEAKER_01: and hopefully creative I hope I still always have the use
55:37
SPEAKER_01: of my hands yes I will continue right through and if I stop for a while that's okay
55:43
SPEAKER_01: and not to give myself a bad time about it because it's not always there
55:48
SPEAKER_01: and there are other parts of me and life does get in the way and
55:54
SPEAKER_01: yeah but it's always there in the background so right through to
55:58
SPEAKER_00: the bitter end I think I hope and relatively organically or planned
56:03
SPEAKER_00: or is there now you say okay I'm going to be doing this and in a couple
56:05
SPEAKER_00: of years that's that thing that I'm going to be doing or that material I'm going
56:09
SPEAKER_01: to be exploring or no nothing's really planned um no I have
56:15
SPEAKER_01: to just let it go let it let it be let it come when it comes because
56:20
SPEAKER_01: as you can see I just keep looking out into the
56:23
SPEAKER_01: The view here of Glendoo Bay and for me those mountains speak to me the clouds,
56:29
SPEAKER_01: the water,
56:30
SPEAKER_01: the movement they are my end goal of how I'm going to be creative so I listen
56:38
SPEAKER_01: to what's going on out there and watch what's going on out there
56:41
SPEAKER_01: so hopefully I'll always have my sight although when I was carving in wood
56:48
SPEAKER_01: that was something a blind person could do
56:51
SPEAKER_01: They could feel my paintings and that was kind of cool
56:55
SPEAKER_01: because they were low relief carvings so they couldn't see the colour
56:59
SPEAKER_01: but they could feel the mountains and the ripples in the water and the movement of
57:05
SPEAKER_00: the sky and I really liked that about it That I'm guessing was relatively unexpected
57:11
SPEAKER_00: and not part of the goal of the work Yeah it was experimenting at art school Yes
57:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I did that for probably close
57:20
SPEAKER_01: to 20 years I was doing relief carvings I stopped
57:23
SPEAKER_01: because my wrist Too much hammering Yeah so I do miss that a little bit
57:31
SPEAKER_01: but that's okay that was a chapter
57:34
SPEAKER_00: There's a small sculpture you made before you had children,
57:38
SPEAKER_00: a woman with her hands on her stomach.
57:41
SPEAKER_00: I've read that you hope will one day mark your grave.
57:44
SPEAKER_00: Tell me about her.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: When did you make her?
57:46
SPEAKER_00: What was going on at the time?
57:48
SPEAKER_00: And if people are one day,
57:50
SPEAKER_00: hopefully a long,
57:50
SPEAKER_00: long time into the future,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: standing at your grave looking at that sculpture,
57:54
SPEAKER_00: what do you hope that will give them?
57:58
SPEAKER_01: It's probably more for me personally but I do remember my father mentioning that too
58:05
SPEAKER_01: and that was around the time that we couldn't have children but
58:08
SPEAKER_01: that wasn't actually my intention but again what's in your subconscious you know at
58:13
SPEAKER_01: the time I think we were trying to have children when I carved that
58:18
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't the plan but it just happened it just the stone spoke it I was just
58:24
SPEAKER_01: the yeah delivery person so yeah I think it is around infertility maybe being
58:32
SPEAKER_01: a woman I'm looking down I'm holding my hands over my stomach I've got long hair
58:38
SPEAKER_01: and I think it's just a
58:40
SPEAKER_01: A sign of human reflection I'm looking down,
58:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm reflecting And yeah,
58:46
SPEAKER_01: it is That touching of the stomach
58:49
SPEAKER_01: With my hands is probably more Around just protecting myself And who I am as
58:55
SPEAKER_01: a person And a body It's just who I am