Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 289 - How to Properly Handle the Fall of a Pastor

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Ep. 289 - How to Properly Handle the Fall of a Pastor · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Mark Spence: A senior pastor, especially his closest friends, are outside of the church.
• 1:08
  Mark Spence: It's not their associate, it's not their assistant pastors, it's some random pastor who's too busy to ask difficult questions, to hit them up because they're busy themselves.
• 1:18
  Mark Spence: Pause, take that honest assessment, look inside the mirror and say, lord, search me and try me, see if there be any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.
• 1:29
  Mark Spence: Where am I currently at?
• 1:31
  Mark Spence: What do I need to do?
• 1:32
  Mark Spence: What do I need to confess?
• 1:33
  Mark Spence: Because God will not bless or fill a dirty cup.
• 1:38
  Mark Spence: He can't.
• 1:39
  Mark Spence: You may fool people this side of heaven, but every private sin is an open spectacle in heaven, vance Havner said.
• 1:45
  Mark Spence: So we take that honest assessment and then we take that step of faith to communicate.
• 1:52
  Mark Spence: To communicate to people who have run their race before them, and you just talk and let the cards fall where they may.
• 2:00
  Mark Spence: But unfortunately, what happens is you have these pastors who get paid very little, who don't know how to do anything else, and so they don't know where to turn, they don't know what to do.
• 2:11
  Mark Spence: That is a difficult situation, because they've set themselves up for failure, and now you have people that are looking at them as hypocrites, as they should.
• 2:19
  Mark Spence: I read a quote from Spurgeon nothing stinks more than hypocrisy.
• 2:23
  Mark Spence: Of course, right.
• 2:25
  Mark Spence: A hypocrite is a person who acts different on Sundayay morning.
• 2:28
  Mark Spence: You're not fooling anyone and you're not going to get away with anything.
• 2:35
  Mark Spence: So acknowledge the truth.
• 2:37
  Mark Spence: Don't cover it up, don't deny it, because it's going to cause further harm and you don't know the hole that you're digging.
• 2:45
  Mark Spence: So confess your sins.
• 2:47
  Mark Spence: He is is faithful, just to forgive your sins, to cleanse you of all unrighteousness, to lead you in the path that you should go, and he will better take care of the sheep.
• 2:54
  Mark Spence: With your confession today.
• 3:02
  Emeal Zwayne: Never gonna, ever gonna, never, ever gonna leave you.
• 3:06
  Emeal Zwayne: You're the one that I love and I wanna.
• 3:08
  Emeal Zwayne: I blew that one.
• 3:12
  Emeal Zwayne: No, you didn't when I feel your heart beating next to mine with a love so true, so divine, I thank my God for all he's done and how he has made us one, never, ever gonna leave you.
• 3:31
  Emeal Zwayne: You're the one that I love and I never want to grieve.
• 3:34
  Oscar Navarro: You are you trying out to be the next star spangled banner.
• 3:38
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm still I'm still riding such a high from having my wife on the podcast that the love is just flowing that's a song I wrote for her.
• 3:46
  Mark Spence: That's beautiful.
• 3:46
  Mark Spence: I'd rather wrestle a serbian polar bear than listen to that again.
• 3:49
  Mark Spence: Did you write?
• 3:49
  Emeal Zwayne: that I did.
• 3:51
  Ray Comfort: That had a little bit of that was better than the other one that I hate In the grip of my father's grave.
• 3:56
  Ray Comfort: No, that's awful, no, seriously, that one had potential Thank you yeah.
• 4:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Rachel hates it everything including me.
• 4:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Mostly the he singing, including me attached to it, but yeah.
• 4:12
  Ray Comfort: But yeah.
• 4:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Did you guys know?
• 4:14
  Emeal Zwayne: You guys remember David Hasselhoff.
• 4:16
  Ray Comfort: Yes.
• 4:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Knight.
• 4:17
  Oscar Navarro: Rider.
• 4:18
  Emeal Zwayne: Get in my car.
• 4:18
  Emeal Zwayne: The Knight Rider, michael Knight.
• 4:21
  Emeal Zwayne: You guys know that guy was a legend, a singing legend In Germany, right Germany.
• 4:27
  Oscar Navarro: In Russia.
• 4:27
  Emeal Zwayne: The Netherlands.
• 4:29
  Oscar Navarro: The.
• 4:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Netherlands, norway, justin Bieber of Eastern.
• 4:32
  Mark Spence: Europe.
• 4:32
  Mark Spence: Have you seen the video of him singing the song Get In my Car?
• 4:35
  Mark Spence: No, it's like the Knight Rider.
• 4:36
  Mark Spence: Are you serious?
• 4:37
  Mark Spence: Get In my Car?
• 4:39
  Mark Spence: Yeah, it's been years since I've seen it, but it's so hilarious.
• 4:41
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, somehow I discovered years ago that he was this insane singing legend, the Hoff, dude, the Hoff, like insane legend.
• 4:51
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, the half, yeah, but guys, but speaking of david hasselhoff and night rider, when I was a kid, like kit was my idol, like I mean I, that car was like my dream and we have it in real life now.
• 5:00
  Oscar Navarro: This is insane.
• 5:01
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, my prius yeah no, but seriously mean.
• 5:05
  Emeal Zwayne: cars are now driving us, cars are talking to us.
• 5:09
  Oscar Navarro: This is just insanity.
• 5:09
  Oscar Navarro: Do you know that the voice that did Kit is also Mr Feeney from Boy Meets World?
• 5:16
  Emeal Zwayne: What it's the same guy Seriously yeah.
• 5:19
  Emeal Zwayne: No, yes, 100%.
• 5:20
  Emeal Zwayne: That's crazy.
• 5:23
  Ray Comfort: Isn't that wild?
• 5:23
  Ray Comfort: Hey Michael, that's so wild, I can hardly stand it.
• 5:26
  Emeal Zwayne: I love you, michael.
• 5:27
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean seriously.
• 5:29
  Emeal Zwayne: They totally succeeded in personifying a car.
• 5:34
  Ray Comfort: I mean that thing to me was a real person.
• 5:36
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, it's Siri yeah.
• 5:38
  Emeal Zwayne: But I mean, that's what I always wonder with technology, is it that we are emulating what we're seeing in movies and on TV, or are they projecting what's to come, based on technology they're aware of, you know?
• 5:52
  Oscar Navarro: I read a book years ago.
• 5:53
  Oscar Navarro: It was called Apologetics in the Christian Imagination by Holly Ordway, and she pointed out how the imagination helps us come to realize things that are true.
• 6:05
  Oscar Navarro: And she points out that often science fiction precedes science Wow, and she points out that often science fiction precedes science wow, and she, she predicts that basically the imagination is what compels us to go create in the world so would god have imagined before he created in genesis one oh that's uh, that's it.
• 6:23
  Mark Spence: I think that's what is that anthropomorphic, you know, thought, of course, yeah, I don't because if god's imagining, he doesn't know what he's going to think.
• 6:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, exactly, then you start venturing into open fields.
• 6:32
  Mark Spence: Remember that first national church of the imagination.
• 6:34
  Mark Spence: Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has ever occurred to God?
• 6:37
  Emeal Zwayne: I don't know who said that.
• 6:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, that was great, I like that.
• 6:39
  Emeal Zwayne: I said that I like that.
• 6:50
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I'd love to test that on you, Ray.
• 6:50
  Emeal Zwayne: Could you actually sit behind the wheel of an autonomous car and let it drive you?
• 6:52
  Emeal Zwayne: No, I'd hate it.
• 6:52
  Emeal Zwayne: I knew that.
• 6:53
  Emeal Zwayne: You guys should have seen Ray in India.
• 6:56
  Mark Spence: Oh, that was.
• 6:56
  Mark Spence: They have autonomous cars in India, right.
• 6:58
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, boy you know, that's a good question, if they could even work there it was insane.
• 7:02
  Emeal Zwayne: Because they don't have like it was about two hours was it.
• 7:04
  Ray Comfort: I was carrying the back seat Ray was seriously.
• 7:07
  Emeal Zwayne: I'd never seen Ray, so stressed.
• 7:09
  Ray Comfort: What was it like?
• 7:10
  Ray Comfort: Just, we're going to die now.
• 7:12
  Emeal Zwayne: No, it's going to be now.
• 7:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Now, no, because you know they like overtake.
• 7:15
  Emeal Zwayne: They go around and vehicles On the wrong side.
• 7:18
  Emeal Zwayne: It's like hunting chicken, yeah, and they're honking while they do it.
• 7:21
  Emeal Zwayne: That's how it was affected by?
• 7:32
  Oscar Navarro: did it affect it?
• 7:33
  Oscar Navarro: No?
• 7:35
  Ray Comfort: speaking of the jetsons, there's no way flying, flying cars could work right, and now they're on the brink yeah, but how could you just?
• 7:43
  Ray Comfort: No, I'm serious, but you think of the congestion, how?
• 7:45
  Emeal Zwayne: no, no see, you never thought about.
• 7:46
  Ray Comfort: Don't point at me congestion.
• 7:47
  Emeal Zwayne: I'll tell you how.
• 7:48
  Emeal Zwayne: No, no See, you never thought about that.
• 7:48
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't point at me when you hey, I'll tell you how.
• 7:50
  Emeal Zwayne: Judge not, I'm going to start a church on the Jetsons.
• 7:52
  Emeal Zwayne: The reason why, and I used to think the same thing.
• 7:55
  Emeal Zwayne: How can that work?
• 7:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Because of this and that, but you think about autonomous cars, the cameras, the radar.
• 8:02
  Emeal Zwayne: They stop.
• 8:04
  Emeal Zwayne: So everything would be like Automated, yeah, automated.
• 8:07
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, but I don't want someone hovering over our house.
• 8:11
  Emeal Zwayne: They'll have parachutes.
• 8:12
  Emeal Zwayne: They'd probably have like no-fly zones.
• 8:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Why would that be good?
• 8:14
  Emeal Zwayne: They'll have parachutes, right?
• 8:16
  Ray Comfort: Just think of congestion on a 405.
• 8:18
  Ray Comfort: Imagine a 405 flying.
• 8:20
  Ray Comfort: They're all flying.
• 8:21
  Emeal Zwayne: You've got limitless space up there.
• 8:23
  Emeal Zwayne: They'll figure it out, don't worry, ray.
• 8:30
  Ray Comfort: They'll Don't figure it out.
• 8:31
  Ray Comfort: Don't worry, ray, don't figure it out.
• 8:32
  Emeal Zwayne: What could go wrong?
• 8:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Hang on.
• 8:32
  Oscar Navarro: Here's a guy on an 18-wheeler flying over a house.
• 8:34
  Emeal Zwayne: Hey, la City Planning Committee.
• 8:34
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, that's right, they'll figure it out.
• 8:35
  Emeal Zwayne: They'll definitely figure it out.
• 8:36
  Emeal Zwayne: Billions.
• 8:37
  Emeal Zwayne: All right, friends.
• 8:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Time for a cool, classy comment.
• 8:40
  Emeal Zwayne: This is from Emma N B.
• 8:43
  Emeal Zwayne: Hello friends, she wrote it out that way my name is Emma and I am 17.
• 8:50
  Emeal Zwayne: I strive to be a missionary and find so many useful tools to put in my tool belt by listening to the Living Waters podcast.
• 8:55
  Emeal Zwayne: I've been listening for about a year and a half.
• 8:58
  Emeal Zwayne: I've been watching Ray on YouTube for about five years.
• 9:00
  Emeal Zwayne: I've learned so much about how to be a modest and humble Proverbs.
• 9:04
  Emeal Zwayne: 31 woman of God.
• 9:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray, I wanna thank you for all the experience you bring to the table and how you share an infinite love of dogs.
• 9:11
  Emeal Zwayne: Ha ha, mark, you have such a talent for coming up with amazing insight that hits deep.
• 9:15
  Emeal Zwayne: Oscar, I love how you share practical ways to plug in with the gospel community and reach others, reach out to peers.
• 9:22
  Emeal Zwayne: Finally, easy, you bring such joy and laughter to the gang, as well as such deep compassion for everyone around you, except for Ray.
• 9:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark and Oscar Laugh out loud.
• 9:32
  Emeal Zwayne: I agree with Easy on the name Augustine, yes.
• 9:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Lastly, I have a joke for y'all.
• 9:37
  Emeal Zwayne: Why did Ray Comfort cross the road?
• 9:39
  Emeal Zwayne: Because there was a chicken on the other side.
• 9:42
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, that's pretty good.
• 9:44
  Emeal Zwayne: Keep doing what you're doing With love to my brothers in Christ, your beloved friend and listener, emma and Bea.
• 9:50
  Ray Comfort: Emma, we'll send you a free chicken.
• 9:53
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you, emma.
• 9:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you, emma, very, very encouraging.
• 9:56
  Ray Comfort: I got a letter here from a seven-year-old in Alaska.
• 9:58
  Ray Comfort: My name is Bethany Faith.
• 9:59
  Ray Comfort: I'm seven years old.
• 10:00
  Ray Comfort: I'm the oldest in my family, a young family.
• 10:03
  Ray Comfort: I live in Alaska.
• 10:04
  Ray Comfort: I like listening to the podcast because I like how silly you are Talking about you, eason.
• 10:10
  Ray Comfort: I love the Bible.
• 10:11
  Ray Comfort: I've never won the contest and I really want to win, so we'll send her something Precious.
• 10:17
  Ray Comfort: What's her name?
• 10:17
  Ray Comfort: Again, it's Bethany Faith.
• 10:20
  Oscar Navarro: Bethany, I've got a letter here from a seven-month baby.
• 10:26
  Ray Comfort: I got one from an embryo.
• 10:27
  Mark Spence: We should send her a winter schnitzel like a chili cheese dog Half eaten.
• 10:31
  Emeal Zwayne: Half eaten.
• 10:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you, Bethany.
• 10:33
  Emeal Zwayne: That is really sweet that was so much.
• 10:35
  Emeal Zwayne: What a joy.
• 10:35
  Emeal Zwayne: All right, friends, it's time for a radically revolutionary resource.
• 10:40
  Emeal Zwayne: This podcast is brought to you by the School of Biblical Evangelism textbook 101 Lessons in Evangelism, and this is authored by Ray Comfort, mark Spence and Kirk Cameron.
• 10:53
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark, you're an author.
• 10:54
  Mark Spence: Yes, and so are you.
• 10:55
  Mark Spence: Oh, I am.
• 10:56
  Mark Spence: How did that get to this?
• 10:57
  Mark Spence: I wasn't going to mention it.
• 10:59
  Emeal Zwayne: I don't want to just keep talking about it.
• 11:00
  Mark Spence: So, how's it doing on Amazon?
• 11:01
  Mark Spence: Yeah, how's it doing.
• 11:02
  Mark Spence: We looked it up and it was like number one.
• 11:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, like number one.
• 11:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, it's number one in a category that deals with silliness, yeah, stupidity, just sexual health recovery type things, but it's like also within Christian living.
• 11:16
  Emeal Zwayne: I can't remember the two categories, but it's in the top hundred and this is just after one day of announcing it.
• 11:22
  Ray Comfort: So yeah, friends fight like a man, so go in there and like it and buy it, or, whatever you do, subscribe to it.
• 11:28
  Oscar Navarro: Listen, you don't even have to read it, just buy it.
• 11:31
  Oscar Navarro: Just buy it.
• 11:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Buy it like a man.
• 11:32
  Emeal Zwayne: A bold biblical battle plan for personal purity Did you say buy it like a man.
• 11:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Buy it like a man.
• 11:39
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, do that.
• 11:40
  Emeal Zwayne: Do that.
• 11:40
  Emeal Zwayne: Men and women buy it like women for men.
• 11:43
  Emeal Zwayne: All right friends.
• 11:45
  Emeal Zwayne: What was I talking about?
• 11:46
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, the textbook.
• 11:46
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, Mark's an author.
• 11:47
  Emeal Zwayne: That's where we were.
• 11:49
  Emeal Zwayne: Good job, Mark.
• 11:50
  Emeal Zwayne: Living Waters.
• 11:51
  Emeal Zwayne: Mug, they're having to study Bible.
• 11:52
  Emeal Zwayne: All right, Living Waters.
• 11:58
  Emeal Zwayne: Whoa, that was a good grounding, Livingwaterscom.
• 11:59
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you for clarity.
• 12:01
  Emeal Zwayne: I think people know it by now.
• 12:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Clarity's been listening quite a lot lately.
• 12:07
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, Clarity's lately.
• 12:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, clarity is our friend.
• 12:11
  Emeal Zwayne: All right friends.
• 12:12
  Emeal Zwayne: Today we are dealing with actually a rather heavy topic, one that is prevalent because it just keeps on happening.
• 12:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Today we're talking about how to properly handle the fall of a pastor.
• 12:21
  Oscar Navarro: Oh, I thought we were going to do the fall of an El Pastor taco.
• 12:24
  Oscar Navarro: When it hits the ground, do you eat it, do you not?
• 12:28
  Emeal Zwayne: eat it Five.
• 12:28
  Emeal Zwayne: Second rule we know what you've got on your mind, oscar, but we've talked about the fact that Mark and I at least keep a list.
• 12:38
  Emeal Zwayne: It's a sad list, it's a heartbreaking list, but it's a necessary list because it helps us guard our own hearts.
• 12:45
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark and I have both pastored, we're both ordained pastors.
• 12:47
  Emeal Zwayne: It helps us guard our own hearts.
• 12:48
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark and I have both pastored, we're both ordained pastors and all of us here have served in that capacity to one degree or another.
• 13:00
  Emeal Zwayne: So we keep that list of pastors that have fallen because it's the last thing we would ever want to happen to us.
• 13:02
  Emeal Zwayne: How long is that the list?
• 13:03
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, it's pretty long and it keeps getting longer because we have to keep adding pastors that have fallen.
• 13:07
  Emeal Zwayne: And I say it's not a list we delight in because our hearts agree, because we recognize that that's the route that any of us can take because of our sinful nature.
• 13:19
  Emeal Zwayne: But along with the fact that our hearts grieve and break for these pastors and their families and, obviously, the glory of God and the impact on the kingdom, our hearts break for those that have been under their leadership and the ramifications that are associated with that.
• 13:35
  Emeal Zwayne: And so today we want to probe that.
• 13:38
  Emeal Zwayne: We want to delve into that and the purpose in doing this, friends, is because we want to be able to be a source of help to those of you that have struggled with that and then, just by way of kind of application, to encourage you to guard your own hearts, whether you're in the pastorate or not, because this sin of sexual immorality has massive, massive repercussions and ramifications.
• 14:02
  Ray Comfort: And you could probably call that list.
• 14:04
  Ray Comfort: You have the tip of the iceberg.
• 14:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Why would you say that, ray?
• 14:08
  Ray Comfort: Because it's not made public.
• 14:10
  Ray Comfort: You know there's a lot of secrets sitting around where pastors are intersexual, but it's never been made public.
• 14:16
  Ray Comfort: God sees them.
• 14:17
  Ray Comfort: There are many tears among the weak, foolish virgins among the wise, bad fish among the good and goats among the sheep and they've got under the pulpits.
• 14:23
  Ray Comfort: And that's what's happening.
• 14:24
  Ray Comfort: The straight gate hasn't been preached.
• 14:26
  Ray Comfort: It's been a broad path that many enter in at because they don't come through the straight gate of genuine repentance.
• 14:34
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, definitely a lot of false teachers, false converts that stand behind pulpits as well.
• 14:42
  Ray Comfort: When you hear of some of these pastors you think, oh, this is terrible and it's the sense.
• 14:47
  Ray Comfort: The poor guy, I hope he's not being wrongfully accused.
• 14:50
  Ray Comfort: And then you hear he's been in adultery for seven years.
• 14:53
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, those are the big heartbreakers when you hear that it's been something that's been going on for a long time.
• 14:57
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, mark, let me ask you this, because Ray made a point there about false converts who are pastors Is it possible for a pastor who's genuinely born again and saved and loves the Lord to fall into sexual immorality?
• 15:14
  Mark Spence: Yes, and this is why we need to take heed ourselves.
• 15:16
  Mark Spence: When we hear about somebody falling in, first thing we do is we check ourselves out right.
• 15:21
  Mark Spence: When we restore those that are around, we take heed lest we fall into the same sin.
• 15:25
  Mark Spence: Right, we have to be very, very careful.
• 15:28
  Mark Spence: It's been said that every public failure we hear about is the result of a thousand private failings.
• 15:35
  Mark Spence: God is very serious about the cleansing of his children.
• 15:41
  Mark Spence: Allow me to share with you a quote that illustrates the depth of God's commitment to purity and holiness for his children, and then I want to break it down for you, if I may.
• 15:50
  Mark Spence: Sure William Garnell, the Puritan author.
• 15:53
  Mark Spence: He said God loves purity so much that he would rather see a hole than a spot on his child's garments.
• 16:03
  Mark Spence: Now let me break it down.
• 16:06
  Mark Spence: God values purity so much that he would rather see us with holes representing a complete removal of sin, even if it leaves us with scars and weaknesses, rather than with spots which represent an unaddressed sin or impurity.
• 16:27
  Mark Spence: So the idea is that God is more concerned with our spiritual purity and holiness than with the discomfort and the difficulties we might endure in the process of becoming pure, even though that may mean and it does mean at times an opportunity for people to blaspheme his holy name.
• 16:47
  Mark Spence: He's not going to allow somebody who claims the name of Christ to get away with anything, to have that marness, to have that impurity, to have that vileness, to have that stain.
• 16:59
  Mark Spence: He'd rather there be a hole demonstrated, a complete removal, than to have that mark on that individual.
• 17:07
  Mark Spence: You cannot get away with anything.
• 17:08
  Emeal Zwayne: That's a really, really powerful illustration, yeah, and I would say that that is in keeping with God's jealousy over his church, from the standpoint of what Scripture talks about, of our God being a jealous God in the right sense, that his heart beats for those that he loves and that he redeemed, and that he made his own and he cares about his glory.
• 17:34
  Emeal Zwayne: We've talked about this before Our greatest good is the magnification of God's glory.
• 17:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Our greatest good is that this great and awesome God is worshiped in spirit and in truth and in impeccable holiness, and so it's with that in view that God wants his bride to remain pure, and he loves his bride so much that he will expose sin, even amongst its leaders.
• 17:59
  Emeal Zwayne: And so we have to remember that.
• 18:01
  Emeal Zwayne: And, oscar, there are people listening right now who have just been snatched back into a deep experience of pain because the pastor that they loved, that they trusted, who shepherded them, who led and guided their lives for many, many years, had fallen into sexual morality and they felt that deep sense of betrayal, and it's a real sore spot.
• 18:23
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, how many times have we encountered people who have said, hey, I pulled out of the church because that happened Right?
• 18:30
  Emeal Zwayne: And so, oscar, I'd love you to speak to that and just kind of minister to our friends that are listening today.
• 18:36
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, and let me broaden the scope a little bit, because the title is how to Properly Handle the Fall of a Pastor.
• 18:41
  Oscar Navarro: And to be clear, a pastor can fall not just for sexually immoral reasons.
• 18:46
  Oscar Navarro: Just real, quickly, before I answer the question.
• 18:48
  Oscar Navarro: 1 Timothy 3, titus 1, it gives us qualifications.
• 18:53
  Oscar Navarro: They should be above reproach, respectable, honorable, self-controlled, sensible, not quick-tempered.
• 19:00
  Oscar Navarro: They should be lovers of what is good, just and devout they should be.
• 19:04
  Oscar Navarro: It goes into their family life.
• 19:06
  Oscar Navarro: Elders should be the husband of one wife and have their children under control with dignity.
• 19:10
  Oscar Navarro: Their children should be believers, not insubordinate.
• 19:13
  Oscar Navarro: It goes into their abilities.
• 19:14
  Oscar Navarro: Elders pastors should be able to teach, counsel, exhort and sound doctrine.
• 19:19
  Oscar Navarro: They should be of good managers of the household and care for God's church.
• 19:23
  Oscar Navarro: It goes into their temperance.
• 19:25
  Oscar Navarro: Elders should be temperate, not addicted to wine, not violent hospitality.
• 19:30
  Oscar Navarro: They should be hospitable and generous to guests, open-hearted.
• 19:33
  Oscar Navarro: They need to be prudent, uncontentious, free from the love of money, not found to be sorbitant gain.
• 19:40
  Oscar Navarro: And so you know these are qualifications, which means the disqualification of elder.
• 19:45
  Oscar Navarro: We've seen it in the news and I know the reason why our minds go to sexual immorality is because, unfortunately, it seems like nine out of 10, that's what's happening?
• 19:53
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:54
  Oscar Navarro: On the other hand, there's plenty of examples where pastors come out to be very abusive, both verbally, spiritually, over leadership, pastors who mishandled funds, pastors who've lied, who've not handled their household well, there's so many reasons and here's the thing.
• 20:10
  Oscar Navarro: Sadly, I've only really called and had a relationship with three pastors in my Christian walk, and two of those guys are currently disqualified.
• 20:22
  Oscar Navarro: Wow, and so you guys have a list.
• 20:28
  Oscar Navarro: You've seen it both in the news, you've experienced it personally.
• 20:31
  Oscar Navarro: What I'm interested here in is-.
• 20:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Interested personally, meaning that we've You've witnessed it, yeah, yeah, with friends, not you've experienced it personally.
• 20:41
  Emeal Zwayne: You heard it here first.
• 20:43
  Oscar Navarro: Breaking news.
• 20:44
  Oscar Navarro: No, you know, and I like your question Easy, because what about?
• 20:49
  Oscar Navarro: We see it in the news and it's like shame, shame.
• 20:51
  Oscar Navarro: But what about when it happens closest to home?
• 20:55
  Oscar Navarro: It affects us.
• 20:56
  Oscar Navarro: This is the reason why God's word tells us that you need to take your calling serious, Because people listen, people go to church and they look to their pastor, because they trust that you have an understanding of the gospel and that that gospel has affected your life in some way.
• 21:17
  Oscar Navarro: And so our response to someone falling it can be really hard.
• 21:22
  Oscar Navarro: I know friends who have never recovered, who no longer call themselves Christians, and it started with the fall of their pastor.
• 21:30
  Oscar Navarro: And so I think there's a number of ways that we can respond.
• 21:32
  Oscar Navarro: First off, many people, surprisingly, will immediately jump to deny or excuse the behavior.
• 21:42
  Oscar Navarro: They'll say something like well, he's done so much, good, good, or it can't be that bad.
• 21:49
  Oscar Navarro: You know they'll wanna protect them, and it's hard because this is the person who has pastored you.
• 21:54
  Oscar Navarro: They've been next to you, they're at your wedding, they officiated, they've been at the bedside of a loved one who's passing away.
• 22:02
  Oscar Navarro: You know, there's this desire that loyalty jumps in and you wanna protect that person.
• 22:10
  Oscar Navarro: Or, like the celebrity pastorism comes in, it's like, well, I don't care, I'm following him, no matter what.
• 22:15
  Oscar Navarro: And then there's the other side of it, which is that we want to discredit them altogether.
• 22:20
  Oscar Navarro: We go from like this everything I've ever learned from him is no longer valid.
• 22:27
  Oscar Navarro: We mistake the virtue of theology for the virtue of the theologian.
• 22:32
  Oscar Navarro: Let me say that again we mistake the virtue of theology for the virtue of the theologian.
• 22:37
  Oscar Navarro: And let me put it this way when I I've shared this on the podcast before I was physically abused by a stepfather, sexually abused by another one.
• 22:48
  Oscar Navarro: There comes a point in your life when you start, you look back on your childhood and that kind of a situation.
• 22:53
  Oscar Navarro: You think, well, that person introduced me to this kind of music, to these kinds of books, to this like hobby that I now have.
• 23:02
  Oscar Navarro: And there was this moment in my life personally where I wrestled with do I need to get rid of this thing that I love, cause it was introduced to me by this person.
• 23:10
  Oscar Navarro: That's so wicked and evil.
• 23:12
  Oscar Navarro: And you come to realize, no, I can separate.
• 23:15
  Oscar Navarro: I can separate the good from the bad.
• 23:19
  Oscar Navarro: And that leads to the third.
• 23:20
  Oscar Navarro: What we need to do as Christians is see the beauty in between, that the good that person did or taught is not marred or distorted by the sin they committed.
• 23:33
  Oscar Navarro: That, ultimately, your true shepherd and your true pastor is Christ, and the scripture is not deaf to these experience, from Moses to Abraham, fallen leaders, hebrews 12 is something that I've clung to.
• 23:50
  Oscar Navarro: Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely and let us run, with endurance, the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross.
• 24:15
  Oscar Navarro: If you are hurting, look to Christ as your true shepherd and your true pastor.
• 24:22
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, oscar, that's so, so, fitting, exactly.
• 24:26
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, man will always let you down, and we've talked about idolatry on the podcast before, and yet I think that we sort of block this possibility out in our mind.
• 24:38
  Emeal Zwayne: That our pastor can become our idol, yeah, right, and that you know we talk about.
• 24:42
  Emeal Zwayne: You know musicians and you know this and that and the other, but your pastor can become your idol, and that's often manifested by how we react in instances like that, you know, or maybe even dealing with heresy or whatever.
• 24:55
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, it's okay, we'll give him a pass, you know, because you know that unsettles our whole world the thought of, oh, I need to leave or move on.
• 25:03
  Emeal Zwayne: But we deal with that, with people that are in cults, right, you'll present them with the truth.
• 25:06
  Emeal Zwayne: You can tell they're connecting that what they believe is false, but because of the social structure that they like and the repercussions of the fallout, they're not willing to abandon that, and that's dangerous High mentality.
• 25:18
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, yeah, ray, pain makes people do a lot of things that can sometimes be unreasonable, and yet how do you counsel someone who's dealing with pain where they're?
• 25:39
  Ray Comfort: just not seeing straight.
• 25:40
  Ray Comfort: In a situation like this, where their pastor's falling you mean like today, when you've got a headache and you're doing the podcast.
• 25:42
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, don't remind me of my headache.
• 25:44
  Emeal Zwayne: He was on a roll.
• 25:45
  Emeal Zwayne: I know the last podcast.
• 25:46
  Emeal Zwayne: I had one too.
• 25:47
  Emeal Zwayne: It keeps going.
• 25:48
  Ray Comfort: I think it's very important to understand that the gifts and calling of God without repentance.
• 25:51
  Ray Comfort: Romans 11, 29,.
• 25:53
  Ray Comfort: We tend to judge a man by his gifts.
• 25:56
  Ray Comfort: You can have a gifted pastor who's a brilliant teacher, who's into sin yeah.
• 26:01
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, and Jesus said you'll know them by their fruits sin.
• 26:07
  Ray Comfort: And Jesus said you'll know them by their fruits.
• 26:08
  Ray Comfort: You can have a guy who's brilliant at teaching and his teaching is right on, but he's into sin, and so it's very important.
• 26:12
  Ray Comfort: What we're talking about means a lot to me because I've experienced it 35 years ago, maybe a little longer, where my senior pastor was in an inappropriate adult relationship with his secretary.
• 26:25
  Ray Comfort: I suspected it and he was.
• 26:28
  Ray Comfort: The whole church was built as a pyramid in those days.
• 26:30
  Ray Comfort: The pastor was on top and everyone was beneath him.
• 26:33
  Ray Comfort: That's how it was structured.
• 26:34
  Ray Comfort: He would go to the doorway when people are leaving and he saw himself as the shepherd.
• 26:38
  Ray Comfort: You know, as the sheep passed him and it was just.
• 26:41
  Ray Comfort: The whole structure was just horrible.
• 26:43
  Ray Comfort: He said that God had spoken to him.
• 26:45
  Ray Comfort: I was going to be his Judas and he was very insecure All the time.
• 26:48
  Ray Comfort: He was a great teacher and it became so uncomfortable for me that I left the church and he prayed for me and Sue as we left in a family.
• 26:55
  Ray Comfort: But that church didn't know where we were going.
• 26:57
  Ray Comfort: They thought we were going overseas.
• 26:58
  Ray Comfort: We just went across the city to another church, but he didn't tell them that we'd left the church because he was kind of so insecure.
• 27:06
  Ray Comfort: Anyway, it was a hot potato.
• 27:07
  Ray Comfort: I threw it up in the air and about six months later it came down on the youth pastor's hands.
• 27:12
  Ray Comfort: He got exposed.
• 27:14
  Ray Comfort: Someone saw him squatting down in his secretary's car and his secretary was such, she was pretty, had a great personality, just different from his wife, and that's where he had.
• 27:25
  Ray Comfort: This kind of relationship started like that and became very uncomfortable.
• 27:30
  Ray Comfort: I remember I opened the door, I knocked on his door once in his office and she cracked open the door about three inches and said yes, it was her and him in the office and I thought this isn't good.
• 27:40
  Ray Comfort: So the poor youth pastor, who became the associate pastor after I left, grabbed this hot potato and I feel for anyone who's in that situation, because everything goes haywire and as people hurt, people leave the church.
• 27:54
  Ray Comfort: The church can often split because it's been built on the pastor and it's gifting, rather than watching him looking for his fruits.
• 28:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, I mean, ray, I could feel kind of that visceral pain that you would have experienced back then.
• 28:07
  Emeal Zwayne: Even just coming out in the way you're talking about this, there are ramifications.
• 28:12
  Emeal Zwayne: Sin doesn't just hurt you and that's why I constantly exhort men to recognize that our sins have repercussions.
• 28:20
  Emeal Zwayne: And it's like man, look, if you're not going to stop your sin because you're concerned about how it's going to affect you, have enough love in your heart to say this is going to destroy my children, it's going to destroy my wife, it's going to destroy all the people that I've shared the gospel with, all the young people I've discipled.
• 28:39
  Emeal Zwayne: It's going to harm the testimony of the gospel.
• 28:44
  Emeal Zwayne: Honestly, when we boil it down to its kind of bare foundation and we really think about what's behind sin, it's utter selfishness.
• 28:57
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm talking personally, I know every time I sin it's because I shut everything and everyone else out and it became about what I want at that moment and that needs to disgust us.
• 29:09
  Emeal Zwayne: Can you give us specifics?
• 29:10
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, just tell us the worst thing you've ever committed.
• 29:15
  Emeal Zwayne: Like when I stole Ray's chicken last week.
• 29:19
  Emeal Zwayne: You what?
• 29:22
  Emeal Zwayne: Actually.
• 29:22
  Ray Comfort: I wouldn't know, but it's really hard to know how many we got, because they won't stand still.
• 29:26
  Ray Comfort: They say sit, and now they don't take anything.
• 29:30
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray, I'd love to see you train your chicken.
• 29:32
  Emeal Zwayne: You need a chicken whisperer.
• 29:33
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh boy how did we get off?
• 29:33
  Emeal Zwayne: I was saying something very serious.
• 29:35
  Emeal Zwayne: How?
• 29:35
  Oscar Navarro: do we get?
• 29:36
  Emeal Zwayne: off on this thing On chickens, okay, anyway, side note, we should make a new mug where it's like the four of us and a couple of chickens.
• 29:55
  Emeal Zwayne: Ooh, I'd like that.
• 29:55
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh no, you know that's going to get done now that you said it.
• 29:56
  Emeal Zwayne: But, mark, we're kind of hitting this and that as we're going along.
• 30:00
  Emeal Zwayne: But I'd love for you to speak to that pastor who is in that predicament, where which one?
• 30:05
  Emeal Zwayne: The one listening, he knows that he's on the brink Exhort him.
• 30:12
  Mark Spence: What was that book that we read about pastors by trip?
• 30:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, Dangerous Calling.
• 30:17
  Mark Spence: Dangerous.
• 30:18
  Emeal Zwayne: Calling oh, that's a good book.
• 30:19
  Emeal Zwayne: Glad you remembered that Great book.
• 30:20
  Mark Spence: We read it with a couple of the pastors as well, went through it where these pastors feel like that they are an island onto themselves.
• 30:26
  Mark Spence: They have nobody to talk to.
• 30:27
  Mark Spence: Maybe they've dabbled into the benevolence fund, or they've done something inappropriate, whatever may be, on all different spectrums of what would be considered inappropriate or even sinful, and there's nowhere to go.
• 30:40
  Mark Spence: They just don't know what to do.
• 30:42
  Mark Spence: They don't know where to turn.
• 30:42
  Mark Spence: First and foremost, right Scripture says to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God.
• 30:51
  Mark Spence: Notice that there's a call to you to humble yourself.
• 30:52
  Mark Spence: You don't want God to humble you.
• 30:53
  Mark Spence: God knows how to humble someone.
• 30:54
  Mark Spence: Let's start with just taking an honest assessment of where you are currently at right.
• 31:00
  Mark Spence: For a lot of people, a lot of pastors, sadly and unfortunately, the Bible has become a textbook, a teaching book for Sunday, but it's not a blueprint for living.
• 31:13
  Mark Spence: Their spirit is just removed from the liveliness of the Word of God being alive and powerful.
• 31:19
  Mark Spence: So they approach the Word of God as a job and, whether they realize or recognize it, they have become a hireling more than a shepherd, and they don't know where to turn.
• 31:29
  Mark Spence: They don't know what to do.
• 31:29
  Mark Spence: So a senior pastor, especially his closest friends, are outside of the church.
• 31:35
  Mark Spence: It's not their associate, it's not their assistant pastors, it's some random pastor who's too busy to ask difficult questions, to hit them up because they're busy themselves.
• 31:47
  Mark Spence: Pause, take that honest assessment, look inside the mirror and say, lord, search me and try me, see if there'd be any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.
• 31:56
  Mark Spence: Where am I currently at?
• 31:59
  Mark Spence: What do I need to do?
• 32:06
  Mark Spence: What do I need to confess?
• 32:06
  Mark Spence: Because God will not bless or fill a dirty cup.
• 32:07
  Mark Spence: You can't.
• 32:07
  Mark Spence: You may fool people this side of heaven, but every private sin is an open spectacle in heaven.
• 32:11
  Mark Spence: Vance Havner said so.
• 32:13
  Mark Spence: We take that honest assessment and then we take that step of faith to communicate.
• 32:19
  Mark Spence: To communicate to people who have run their race before them, and you just talk and let the cards fall where they may.
• 32:28
  Mark Spence: But unfortunately, what happens is you have these pastors who get paid very little, who don't know how to do anything else, and so they don't know where to turn.
• 32:38
  Mark Spence: They don't know what to do.
• 32:39
  Mark Spence: That is a difficult situation because they've set themselves up for failure and now you have people that are looking at them as hypocrites as they should.
• 32:46
  Mark Spence: I I read a quote from spurgeon nothing stinks more than hypocrisy, of course, right, a hypocrite is a person who acts different on sunday morning.
• 32:56
  Mark Spence: You're not fooling anyone and you're not going to get away with anything.
• 33:02
  Mark Spence: So acknowledge the truth, don't cover it up, don't deny it, because it's going to cause further harm and you don't know the hole that you're digging.
• 33:12
  Mark Spence: So confess your sins.
• 33:15
  Mark Spence: He is faithful and just to forgive your sins, to cleanse you of all unrighteousness, to lead you in the path that you should go, and he will better take care of the sheep.
• 33:21
  Mark Spence: With your confession today.
• 33:24
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray, would you say that the church has in part contributed to pastors not being open and candid, because they act in such a way toward them that they're expecting perfection and so then a pastor just can't, so then they kind of pander to that rather than just being genuine.
• 33:46
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, the thought that came to my mind when we're talking about this the pastor not having people around him that are close to him that he can share his heart with.
• 33:53
  Ray Comfort: Is he married or not?
• 33:54
  Ray Comfort: Has he got a relationship with his wife or not?
• 33:57
  Ray Comfort: Does he share his whole heart with his wife?
• 33:59
  Ray Comfort: What's going on?
• 34:00
  Ray Comfort: Where's his walk with the Lord?
• 34:02
  Ray Comfort: I mean, your relationship with the Lord should precede your walk and relationship with your wife, and so those two things.
• 34:09
  Ray Comfort: There's something faulty there.
• 34:10
  Ray Comfort: The question that comes to mind is when I hear some pastor, a respected pastor with a massive church, suddenly big news in the world, they just grab it.
• 34:20
  Ray Comfort: It's great, it feeds the flesh, it's titillating, I think.
• 34:23
  Ray Comfort: Is it good that this went public or not?
• 34:26
  Ray Comfort: I'd like it to be kept in-house.
• 34:29
  Ray Comfort: And yet David's sin went public in the world's biggest selling book of all time.
• 34:33
  Ray Comfort: His shame was brought right out.
• 34:35
  Ray Comfort: So there is a good aspect.
• 34:37
  Ray Comfort: While there are some that would blaspheme and continue in sin as an excuse because they see a hypocrite within a position in a church, it's good that it goes public because it shows that the church does see sin as being something serious.
• 34:49
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, that's good.
• 34:50
  Oscar Navarro: I want to touch on something Mark said, because I think it's really insightful, which is it's the idea of these guys, lifelong pastors who have nowhere else to go in their vocation.
• 35:01
  Oscar Navarro: It's also their vocation has become so much a part of their identity as a Christian.
• 35:08
  Oscar Navarro: A lot of times we can't separate the difference for the reality that I am a Christian versus I am a leader within the church, and those things begin to meld together and what ends up happening is your role.
• 35:18
  Oscar Navarro: Your vocation becomes an idol for you to worship.
• 35:21
  Oscar Navarro: It becomes something to cling to that you hide your sin because you're afraid of losing.
• 35:26
  Oscar Navarro: You're so focused on the idolatry of your vocation that you lose sight of your sanctification.
• 35:33
  Oscar Navarro: And the worst thing that can happen is to surround yourself with leaders that share in that same idolatrous way with you.
• 35:40
  Oscar Navarro: They're so worried about you losing your position that they create it to be an idol for you.
• 35:48
  Oscar Navarro: You know and I see this all the time it's like a pastor will fall and immediately it's like well, how quickly can we get him back to the pulpit?
• 35:55
  Oscar Navarro: How fast can we get him back to restoration?
• 35:58
  Oscar Navarro: And I love DA Carson does a really good job with you know, somebody asked him like hey, can a pastor be restored?
• 36:05
  Oscar Navarro: And he slowly responds to that and says well, first, what do you mean by restored?
• 36:10
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, define that.
• 36:11
  Oscar Navarro: Restored to what he goes first.
• 36:14
  Oscar Navarro: Restored to the Lord?
• 36:15
  Oscar Navarro: Yes, praise the Lord, yes.
• 36:17
  Oscar Navarro: Through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, he can be restored to the Lord.
• 36:21
  Oscar Navarro: Start there.
• 36:21
  Oscar Navarro: Restored to his family, hopefully, as long as there's a willingness on both ends towards reconciliation.
• 36:28
  Oscar Navarro: That should be the next goal after restoration to the Lord, restoration towards a right-standing membership to the communion table by the grace of God.
• 36:37
  Oscar Navarro: Yes, that is a process that requires public confession and private repentance, but that can happen too.
• 36:43
  Oscar Navarro: And then he says to leadership, not necessarily.
• 36:47
  Oscar Navarro: Maybe.
• 36:49
  Oscar Navarro: There are many times in church history when certain denominations and at certain times, if a pastor fell, that was it.
• 36:58
  Oscar Navarro: There was no restoration.
• 36:59
  Oscar Navarro: Now, that's not necessarily biblical, though some people may hold that conviction, and I totally understand why.
• 37:05
  Oscar Navarro: Other people will look at the scriptures.
• 37:07
  Oscar Navarro: They'll see instances of you know with Peter and instances of leadership in the Old Testament.
• 37:12
  Oscar Navarro: Like David we already use as an example where it seems as though God has this willingness to restore them.
• 37:15
  Oscar Navarro: Like David we already use as an example where it seems as though God has this willingness to restore them.
• 37:18
  Oscar Navarro: The problem is, most times we start with that.
• 37:23
  Oscar Navarro: We start with this guy has fallen.
• 37:26
  Oscar Navarro: How can we get him to be a pastor as quickly as humanly possible?
• 37:29
  Oscar Navarro: And what ultimately we're doing is we create restoration as an idol, like a notch on my belt.
• 37:35
  Oscar Navarro: I'm going to get him back there.
• 37:36
  Oscar Navarro: And that's insane, because if somebody walked into your church and told you, hey, a month ago I cheated on my wife, you wouldn't be like I wonder if we can get him to be your next pastor in three months.
• 37:47
  Oscar Navarro: You wouldn't do that.
• 37:50
  Oscar Navarro: It's not on the radar.
• 37:51
  Oscar Navarro: And yet when a pastor falls, that's immediately where our mind goes, because we have idolatry mixed up in the midst of all that.
• 38:00
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, oscar, that's really heavy.
• 38:01
  Emeal Zwayne: I remember when I was a newer believer there was a really respected, renowned pastor I mean mega church and on the radio everywhere.
• 38:09
  Emeal Zwayne: I remember I had set my alarm to get up to go to work that afternoon and I thought I was in a dream because as I woke up to the alarm, as a Christian radio station, they were talking about how this pastor fell and I thought no, no, this can't be real.
• 38:23
  Emeal Zwayne: So his church wanted to enact church discipline and a movement from the pulpit and it grieved me deeply that another pastor of another mega church a godly pastor, I do have to add ended up taking him in and allowing him to begin teaching almost right away.
• 38:38
  Ray Comfort: I remember that.
• 38:39
  Emeal Zwayne: And yeah, and that was like in contradiction to the church discipline that his elders had enacted, and so, yeah, we have to be careful of that and we need to recognize that God has a standard and, Oscar, you've already hit on 1, timothy, 3, titus 1.
• 39:00
  Emeal Zwayne: So I want to encourage those that are listening to us now, who are leaders in churches, to ask yourselves are you being faithful shepherds to hold what may be your senior pastor or teaching pastor, the first amongst equals, we would say in many cases, and the one that's in the limelight?
• 39:15
  Emeal Zwayne: Are you doing that?
• 39:16
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, mark, and I know a dear pastor who took on a church outside of the state here.
• 39:22
  Emeal Zwayne: He used to pastor here in California and this guy walked into a nightmare that kept unfolding because more and more things kept coming out that, oh, this actually happened and this sexual sin happened.
• 39:31
  Emeal Zwayne: You know it was a church that had a pastor that fell.
• 39:33
  Emeal Zwayne: He ends up finding out that one of his elders, main elders was living in sexual immorality for 20 years, that included members of the church and that it included even homosexuality, as he traveled as a salesman around the country, and he was just in a whirlwind, and a part of the problem was that leadership prior to him was not dealing with this stuff in the right way.
• 39:56
  Emeal Zwayne: And so, ray, that's important, isn't it?
• 39:58
  Emeal Zwayne: That leaders recognize they stand before the Lord and it's not this buddy club oh, we're all fellow pastors Like this is integrity.
• 40:05
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, I remember the incident you were talking about and I was shocked too that he— and I think it's because he was a nice guy, very respected and had a great gift of teaching.
• 40:17
  Ray Comfort: But that's not the criteria.
• 40:19
  Ray Comfort: And there's something we tend to forget when a man is restored after he's fallen sexually seriously and publicly this is what Proverbs?
• 40:30
  Ray Comfort: 6.32.33 says Whoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding.
• 40:33
  Ray Comfort: He who does so destroys his own soul.
• 40:36
  Ray Comfort: Wounds and dishonor will he get and his reproach will not be wiped away.
• 40:42
  Ray Comfort: And it's so true.
• 40:44
  Ray Comfort: I mean, I know men that fell sexually 40 years ago and I still have that connection of shame with their name.
• 40:53
  Ray Comfort: And that's what's going to happen.
• 40:55
  Ray Comfort: You restore a guy in the pulpit, people will be in the back of their minds thinking yeah, he fell through adultery.
• 41:00
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and I deal with the same thing and I want to say that I deal with it despite my desire not to deal with it, and that I don't want to remember.
• 41:07
  Emeal Zwayne: I want to walk forward and be merciful and gracious, and not even you know I'm a sinner as well, you know.
• 41:12
  Emeal Zwayne: It's just that it comes back to mind and I think that's why one of the qualifications is having a good testimony with those who are outside.
• 41:19
  Mark Spence: Yeah, it says to be blameless not sinless, but blameless.
• 41:22
  Mark Spence: How do we as a people deal with someone if we have inside information?
• 41:28
  Mark Spence: How do we expose that?
• 41:31
  Mark Spence: What's the biblical approach?
• 41:33
  Mark Spence: When we see that to not receive an accusation against an elder unless there's two or three witnesses and there's no other witnesses, perhaps there's somebody who's been abused themselves and they don't know where to go.
• 41:44
  Mark Spence: They don't know how to handle it.
• 41:45
  Mark Spence: How do we deal?
• 41:45
  Emeal Zwayne: with that?
• 41:46
  Emeal Zwayne: That's a great question, mark.
• 41:47
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, I think it's appropriate to read the text that you just cited, and that's 1 Timothy 5, 17 on.
• 41:52
  Emeal Zwayne: It says let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor.
• 42:19
  Emeal Zwayne: It says fear.
• 42:19
  Emeal Zwayne: I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels, that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.
• 42:22
  Emeal Zwayne: And then he adds to that do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins.
• 42:26
  Emeal Zwayne: Keep yourself pure, man.
• 42:27
  Emeal Zwayne: This is like such a perfect exhortation that Paul's giving to Timothy here as a church leader, I mean, he's like going down the list, and I love how he ends with that.
• 42:36
  Emeal Zwayne: Like, hey, in light of all that I just shared with you, be careful not to raise up anyone too quickly.
• 42:41
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't lay hands on anyone hastily, right, don't share in their sin.
• 42:45
  Emeal Zwayne: Like, be wise to recognize a novice is in the crosshairs of the enemy and is susceptible to danger.
• 42:52
  Emeal Zwayne: But I love the fact that he says look those that are sinning.
• 42:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Hey, you need to make that known, right?
• 42:58
  Emeal Zwayne: You don't just hide sin in the life of a leader, you bring it out and you make it clear and it's an example to others that even leaders are not beyond being corrected and disciplined within the church.
• 43:09
  Emeal Zwayne: Better now than judgment day, yeah, amen.
• 43:12
  Emeal Zwayne: But I love the fact too that he pinpoints and highlights that you're to do everything without partiality.
• 43:18
  Emeal Zwayne: We can't be partial in these sorts of things.
• 43:21
  Emeal Zwayne: We have to deal with those things.
• 43:24
  Emeal Zwayne: And so I would say to church leaders that are listening that man, yeah, you have to determine to do that, to not be partial in these things, and to do it for the love of the Lord and the love of the lost and the love of that shepherd, right?
• 43:39
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, you know Galatians 6.1, mark.
• 43:43
  Emeal Zwayne: That talks about hey, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you, who are spiritual, restore such one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
• 43:51
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm glad, oscar, you highlighted the fact that restoration absolutely to the Lord and immediately.
• 43:58
  Emeal Zwayne: But, mark the issue of gentleness in that, a spirit of gentleness looking to yourself, how important is that?
• 44:05
  Mark Spence: Well, I mean, it really can't happen to any of us.
• 44:09
  Mark Spence: That's why we are always taking heed.
• 44:10
  Mark Spence: We're always Like I shared with you guys when I leave, when I go anywhere, when I get inside my car, I just pause and I want anywhere.
• 44:17
  Mark Spence: When I get inside my car, I just pause and I want to acknowledge what just happened.
• 44:20
  Mark Spence: Where was I just at inside that restaurant or that event at work?
• 44:24
  Mark Spence: I get inside my car and I just pause.
• 44:25
  Mark Spence: What went right, what went wrong?
• 44:26
  Mark Spence: Always taking inventory, always wanting to get better, always wanting to be a tool in the master carpenter's hand.
• 44:35
  Mark Spence: I'm curious how does this differ from the Matthew 18 approach?
• 44:38
  Mark Spence: Because you would have somebody say well, let me just approach him privately, and then he confesses to me privately he's repented.
• 44:45
  Mark Spence: Well then, hey, we're good to go, let him continue on with what he's going.
• 44:49
  Mark Spence: Obviously, there's a distinction between.
• 44:51
  Mark Spence: How do we deal with that?
• 44:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, the Matthew 18 approach.
• 44:56
  Emeal Zwayne: This really needs to be understood because a lot misunderstand it.
• 44:58
  Emeal Zwayne: That is dealing with a personal sin that someone has committed to you.
• 45:01
  Emeal Zwayne: If your brother has sinned against you, so that's in a different category.
• 45:06
  Emeal Zwayne: We may principally apply maybe that sort of pattern in dealing with someone who's publicly sinned, but that's not what it's talking about.
• 45:15
  Emeal Zwayne: Those that sin or that go on sinning, they need to be addressed publicly.
• 45:18
  Emeal Zwayne: When an official, a leader within the church has sinned, he's accountable to those that he's leading and he has forfeited that leadership, at the very least in the immediate, because he has violated God's criteria for leaders.
• 45:33
  Emeal Zwayne: It's a betrayal of trust.
• 45:34
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and what we just saw and, mark, I forgot to touch on this earlier when you asked the question like the whole witnesses thing, right, two or three witnesses.
• 45:41
  Emeal Zwayne: We have to be careful of that because it's not saying like it could be one person that was violated by a pastor.
• 45:49
  Emeal Zwayne: No one else saw it.
• 45:49
  Emeal Zwayne: This is talking about taking it as fact right At a certain level.
• 45:56
  Emeal Zwayne: But of course, if someone brings an accusation, you investigate that right, you explore it.
• 46:00
  Emeal Zwayne: You don't just say, oh no, you don't have a witness Not gonna heed it, does that?
• 46:04
  Mark Spence: make sense?
• 46:04
  Mark Spence: Yeah, absolutely.
• 46:05
  Mark Spence: And it reminds me when I was at Bible College and I took a class that nobody was really digging.
• 46:09
  Mark Spence: It was the Gospel of Mark.
• 46:11
  Mark Spence: It was a big class, but it got to the place where it was just me and one other student and the professor just failed showing up, just stopped coming to class.
• 46:21
  Mark Spence: So I went to those in charge and I said "'Hey, I have a problem with my class'.
• 46:26
  Mark Spence: He goes "'Well, go to your professor'.
• 46:28
  Mark Spence: I said "'Well, that's my problem.
• 46:30
  Mark Spence: My professor is'.
• 46:31
  Mark Spence: I said "'Wait, I don't wanna hear it.
• 46:32
  Mark Spence: That professor is an elder and so I don't want to receive the accusation.
• 46:36
  Mark Spence: And I said I go, but no, you don't understand.
• 46:39
  Mark Spence: I'm trying to do my.
• 46:39
  Mark Spence: He's all listen.
• 46:40
  Mark Spence: No, we're done talking.
• 46:41
  Mark Spence: I'm not receiving an accusation against the elder.
• 46:43
  Mark Spence: Yeah, and I'm like what is wrong with this picture?
• 46:47
  Mark Spence: I'm trying to go to class and my professor's not going to class and I ended up getting a d in the class because I didn't do my work.
• 46:53
  Mark Spence: Wow, I had no work, do?
• 46:55
  Mark Spence: I had A's in all the rest of my classes and I couldn't complain to anybody else Mark.
• 46:59
  Emeal Zwayne: hug it out, bro.
• 46:59
  Emeal Zwayne: Hug it out, mark.
• 47:00
  Mark Spence: I don't know Cal gone, take me away.
• 47:03
  Mark Spence: Give him a hug Ray.
• 47:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray, give me a hug.
• 47:06
  Emeal Zwayne: It was a little too close.
• 47:10
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm sorry.
• 47:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, too long.
• 47:12
  Emeal Zwayne: No, mark.
• 47:12
  Emeal Zwayne: That goes to show how dangerous not properly interpreting scripture can be, and so I hope this ministers to those of you listening who have felt like that.
• 47:21
  Emeal Zwayne: No, that's not what it's really saying.
• 47:23
  Emeal Zwayne: So, oscar, close us out with just an encouragement to those that are pastors that have sinned and that are genuinely broken, genuinely repented.
• 47:38
  Emeal Zwayne: Because of anyone who should have the most hope, it should be leaders, because they know God's word and what it says, but, paradoxically, the people that end up with the least hope because of the devastation of what just happened.
• 47:52
  Emeal Zwayne: Right, they seem to be the least, to be the most, to be extremely despondent.
• 47:57
  Emeal Zwayne: But we love these brothers and we want to see them restored, and so I'd love for you to just encourage their hearts in a minute or so.
• 48:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, thank you Izzy.
• 48:05
  Oscar Navarro: Well, let me just say, as I do, that let me recognize that being a pastor is hard work and it's uniquely difficult in this day and age with the advent of social media and the way that we as pastors compare ourselves and look at the numbers, and we're just on constantly 24, seven.
• 48:21
  Oscar Navarro: And often you as a pastor can feel unknown and you can feel like you don't have anybody to turn to because you are the pastor and you are the leader.
• 48:29
  Oscar Navarro: And that pressure, that tension, that difficulty of pastoring churches, of knowing the worst of pains, of seeing the worst of people's side, of taking all of those phone calls constantly, that can weigh heavy on you, and that exhaustion, that tiredness puts you in a place of vulnerability and weakness towards sin.
• 48:50
  Oscar Navarro: And maybe you're listening right now and you've committed that sin and you feel the weight of that conviction coming towards you.
• 48:56
  Oscar Navarro: And let me just remind you you, before you're their pastor, before you're their shepherd, before you're the one preaching on a Sunday, you are God's child and he is offering you right now.
• 49:12
  Oscar Navarro: You being stuck in your sin, you are enslaved to sin.
• 49:17
  Oscar Navarro: And don't forget what Jesus says in John 8, that he has come to set you free so that you can experience true spiritual freedom.
• 49:27
  Oscar Navarro: And my encouragement to you is to be like David in Psalm 51.
• 49:31
  Oscar Navarro: Recognize your sin, that you have sinned before the Lord, first and foremost, repent of your sin and then allow the Lord pray that the Lord would restore the joy of your salvation.
• 49:47
  Oscar Navarro: May the Lord restore the joy of your salvation.
• 49:50
  Oscar Navarro: Through your humble confession and repentance.
• 49:53
  Oscar Navarro: He is offering you spiritual freedom.
• 49:55
  Oscar Navarro: Take it, amen.
• 49:59
  Emeal Zwayne: And I want to say to those pastors that are listening right now, that are pricked in their conscience because you haven't been found out yet, but you're living in sin Come clean, god gives mercy and grace.
• 50:10
  Emeal Zwayne: You're not going to prosper, like scripture says, if you hide your sin, but if you confess it and forsake it, you're going to find mercy, grace and compassion from the Lord and even from others.
• 50:21
  Emeal Zwayne: It's better to come clean yourself than to be discovered, because then there's always room for that question of motive, right?
• 50:28
  Emeal Zwayne: Why do you seem so remorseful now?
• 50:30
  Emeal Zwayne: Maybe because you're uncovered, but you want to come clean yourself, and so we love you.
• 50:37
  Emeal Zwayne: Pastors that have fallen, pastors that are struggling, pastors that are hiding your sin, we love you, the Lord loves you and he wants to bring you back in his arms of love.
• 50:47
  Emeal Zwayne: And maybe some of you are even recognizing maybe you aren't genuinely converted, maybe you've been a false convert.
• 50:52
  Emeal Zwayne: We've known pastors that ended up realizing they weren't saved after they became pastors.
• 50:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Call out on the Lord, get others to speak into your life and walk you through the gospel and the truth related to where you've been.
• 51:07
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, friends, there you have it.
• 51:09
  Emeal Zwayne: God bless you.
• 51:10
  Emeal Zwayne: If you've been impacted by this episode today.
• 51:12
  Emeal Zwayne: Let us know at podcastatlivingwaterscom, otherwise we'll see you next time here on the Living Waters podcast.