Latest / Curiously Guided Podcast / Ep.109 | Burnout Recovery & the Power of Play: When Work Stops Feeling Fun with Rita Cidre, Marketer & Educator

Transcript

Ep.109 | Burnout Recovery & the Power of Play: When Work Stops Feeling Fun with Rita Cidre, Marketer & Educator · Curiously Guided Podcast

• 0:07
  Mariah: Welcome to the Curiously Guided Podcast.
• 0:10
  Mariah: We're your hosts, Mariah.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And hey guys, I'm Shay.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're two online business consultants passionate about rewriting the rules to success within both life and business.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: We believe that curiosity is our superpower.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: And trusting the nudge is a muscle that's meant to be strengthened.
• 0:28
  Mariah: Especially if we want to create a life that feels good from the inside out.
• 0:33
  Mariah: So if you're ready to open your mind and let curiosity guide the way, let's get into the episode.
• 0:41
  Mariah: Welcome back to the podcast, y'all.
• 0:44
  Mariah: This episode is so fun.
• 0:46
  Mariah: So it's with actually one of my SEMrush colleagues.
• 0:51
  Mariah: And so I freelance on retainer for SEMrush Academy.
• 0:55
  Mariah: And I've been working with Rita for quite a little bit now, like a couple of years.
• 1:00
  Mariah: And her personality is just so infectious and bubbly and joyful.
• 1:07
  Mariah: And like you'll be able to tell in this episode.
• 1:09
  Mariah: And what I really loved is like I've been following her on LinkedIn for a while.
• 1:14
  Mariah: And she's got her own thing going on there and sharing about the power of play and like her experience as being a marketer and just like her entire career, I think, is really, really interesting and fascinating.
• 1:27
  Mariah: And I love the unique perspective that she brings to the field.
• 1:32
  Mariah: And so I don't want to give away too much of this episode.
• 1:36
  Mariah: But it's my main takeaway is like it's just so fucking real.
• 1:40
  Mariah: Like we talk about play, we've talked about play on this podcast before.
• 1:44
  Mariah: Sometimes it can feel like a nice to have, like when work feels like play, like, well, what does that mean?
• 1:50
  Mariah: And it's like, or you'll get into this mode where it's like work feels really fun for a while and then it doesn't.
• 1:56
  Mariah: And then some people beat themselves up about like, oh, well, like it used to be fun.
• 2:00
  Mariah: Like, what did I do wrong?
• 2:01
  Mariah: And all of that.
• 2:02
  Mariah: And like we cover all of that in this episode.
• 2:04
  Mariah: And I just love Rita's transparency about her journey.
• 2:09
  Mariah: I just feel like there's a lot that we can all relate to when it comes to the mental gymnastics of like what it takes to be in the online space, what it takes to build a career that you give a shit about, and like all of the kind of nooks and crannies in between.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think Rita has a story that a lot of us can relate to of, you know, being the smart girl, being the overachiever, getting the job you wanted right out the gate, you know, and then hitting burnout.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: She is a really cool story of seasons and cycles, which keeps coming up in this whole season of our podcast.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: But we've all been there.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she worked for someone else, got to burnout, worked for herself for a while, found out that wasn't a great fit.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she'll share her whole story, but there were so many like ebbs and flows in it that I really related to personally.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when we get to the end, she I consider her almost like a chapter ahead of me in the way she's thinking about.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now how do we take what we've learned from all of these burnouts and all of these like big successes?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then how can we find something sustainable and fun and something that lights us up that we want to do every day that is not soul crushing?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And she has such a great perspective on play and fun with work that is not flippant and silly and not like we're bouncing balls and playing tic-tac-toe.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just a really great perspective.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I left that conversation, like Mariah said, her energy is infectious.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are gonna leave this feeling like jazzed up.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: She is just a light and a wonderful person to be around.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited to share this with you guys.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So a little bit about Rita.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: She's a marketing strategist, educator, and future of work thinker who has spent two decades leading marketing teams for brands like Zillow, NPR, Time and Qualtrics, and teaching at universities from Harvard to NYC to WU in Vienna.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: After experience burnout first, experiencing burnout firsthand, she became obsessed with a single question.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why do some people thrive creatively at work while others lose their spark?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Today, as a podcaster, speaker, and head of customer education and community at SEMrush, she helps ambitious professionals reconnect with the curiosity that makes work meaningful and fun.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's dive in.
• 4:24
  Mariah: Rita, I can't say how fucking excited I am for this conversation.
• 4:29
  Mariah: I feel like there's a million questions that I want to ask you.
• 4:32
  Mariah: Uh, just for a little context for our listeners.
• 4:34
  Mariah: So me and Rita work together internally at Sumrush Academy.
• 4:37
  Mariah: She's like the genius behind a lot of that stuff.
• 4:40
  Mariah: And I've been seeing her LinkedIn posts where she's specifically talking about preventing a career burnout.
• 4:45
  Mariah: And I think that that's so important for all of us to hear.
• 4:48
  Mariah: And like I've noticed, Rita, that one of your favorite methods for that is like incorporating play into your career and into the things that you do.
• 4:57
  Mariah: And I think that we're gonna get into the depths of like what that means for you.
• 5:02
  Mariah: But I kind of want to start out with how did you get here?
• 5:05
  Mariah: How did you start caring about burnout?
• 5:07
  Mariah: And like when did you realize that play was crucial?
• 5:11
  Mariah: Oh my God.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how much time do you have?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I got all day, girl.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I mean, like, I'll start by saying that I just from a personality standpoint, I'm like a Labrador like retriever.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just a very excited person.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like Mariah, you know this when we first started working together, I was like, in this project, in this other thing, in this other thing.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it comes from a place of like genuine enthusiasm for projects and for working with other people and for making shit happen.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that I I always think that like the the negative side of that, or like, yeah, the pro probably not great side of that is that I think I'm more prone to burnout than maybe other folks are.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm surprised actually that like my first experience with it didn't happen sooner.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like it happened uh when I was in my early 30s.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I took a job um at a company called Zillow.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's well known in the US.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, out here in Europe where I live, it's not very well known.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I was one of the first employees, I was actually the first B2B online marketing employee in that team.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was quite a small company when I joined, and it was honestly an incredible place to work.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like the product had product market fit, like I've never seen in my life.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: The leadership team was kind, empathetic, really cared about people.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: There was like an incredible clarity of like mission and what we were doing and why we were doing it.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: My teammates were amazing, funny people.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: We would like stay in the office until like 7, 8 p.m.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: every night, just like debating Game of Thrones theories and then just going to bought drinks after like they became my friends.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: They went to my wedding.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I went to their weddings, you know, this kind of like sort of lifelong friends um situation that you know happens.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, like I feel like there's a lot of friends that we make at work, but that was a just a very special time for me.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um, the first two years in that job really felt like I was flying, like it they really felt like I'd struck gold professionally in a way that I had never before.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: I had always kind of like had jobs that I liked and then didn't like and struggled.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this job, I was like, man, like I made it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I this is like what I'm meant to do.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was doing so well that I got promoted and promoted again.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I got promoted, promoted into a director role, um, everything changed for me.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Everything.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was in the same company largely with the same team.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I had switched teams actually, but I was working with the same people.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was still in B2B marketing.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: I had a bigger title, more responsibility, but everything changed for me.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And like two years into less than two years into that role, maybe like a year and a half into that role, things got so bad for me that I quit.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was really and I I mean it's it's been uh in my like again, this is I sometimes in the past I hesitated to talk about this because I feel like it's a it's a it's not a real problem, right?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you talk about burnout, it's like, oh really, are you getting like too many emails?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is that like is that that hard?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry for you.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's like bigger problems in the world, right?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm not here to say that that I had the worst problems.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely like a very elitist problem in in many ways, a problem of privilege, but it really was very hard for me to go through that.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so so yeah, that that was like when I discovered I didn't even know what burnout was.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea what was going on with me.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: What did it look like for you?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did it show up at that point?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, guys, it was awful.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know, I told you I'm a Labrador retriever.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like super excited all the time about everything.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was like missed negative Nancy that couldn't stop talking about how terrible everything was at work.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: I like somehow was able to always talk about work and how like things were not working out for me.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was like spontaneously crying.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would just be walking to work and then start crying, and I just couldn't stop.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my hair fell out, which like I was super thin hair, so that was awful.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um oh, I also fractured a molar, guys.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I was like clenching my teeth so hard at night that I fractured an actual that's fucking horrifying.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was not a it was really a terrible um episode.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean this is why I left, right?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because I just didn't know what to do.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't sure how to fix it other than just like create a physical and emotional separation between me and this this place that I loved where honestly I I had the most fun ever in a job I've ever had.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I couldn't figure out what had happened to me.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's only 10 years later.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm starting this conversation in such a grim tone.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like talking about fractured molars.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: It hasn't even been like three minutes.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I promise it gets better.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like my life got better, everyone.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: I survived, I I made it.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it's been a decade since that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And but that's what it took.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it took a decade for me to like be able to understand what happened to me.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why did why did that happen?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting you're bringing this up, Rita.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've had this in my it's funny, like I'm noticing that I need time to process.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I can't in the moment, it's hard.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they say it's hard to have 2020 or hindsight is 2020 or whatever the phrase is.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: But like I've really been noticing there's some things that I can see right now that are going on, and I'm having trouble making sense of.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm appreciating that it takes time.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm relieved to hear you say, like, it took a full decade of you kind of processing, because that was my first thought during your story of like, well, what changed?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, what was it?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: What what do you think that shift was?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it took me having kids, and like I I just I had an epiphany when my daughter was young, like very little, um, watching her play.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's when I realized, oh, actually, the first two years at Zillow felt like play, and then they didn't.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I couldn't quite describe, like when I left Zillow, I was like, oh, I guess like I was doing more writing when I started working at Zillow, so maybe it was the writing.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I tried writing somewhere else, and I was like, no, it wasn't the writing, it's not the writing, like it wasn't it.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: What was it?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why was it?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why was it in what turned?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And like the best way that I can describe it is that, yeah, as I said, like it was playful, it was like play, and then it wasn't.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I've like thought a lot about what makes and like also read a lot about play as a parent, but also as a manager and like a human interested in the topic to understand like how what makes for a playful space and what doesn't.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And like, can you can you make more room for playfulness and like turn a stressful to turn a stressful situation like a job or something else feel into something that's less so?
• 12:12
  Mariah: So what happened after that?
• 12:14
  Mariah: So you're like your your teeth are falling out, your eyeballs are falling out, everything's falling apart here.
• 12:19
  Mariah: So like what you quit, which A is like a hard decision to make to look at yourself in the mirror to be like, this is such a punch to the gut of just like I love this so much, but I have to be honest that it's not what it used to be, and I need to leave.
• 12:33
  Mariah: So, like, what happened after that?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I after that, so this is where I in time I realized that man, like we are we are sold so many messages and like stories on LinkedIn and elsewhere about what it takes to like your job.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I am a sucker for those stories.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've always thought that I'm like a person that could so easily join a cult, you know.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very susceptible to stories, very susceptible, like too much, you know?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized I how susceptible, like looking back, you know, and my time after burnout, how susceptible I had been to those stories and how much I was trying to follow a playbook that I read online for what what it took for me to be happy again at work.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing that I tried is quit your job and become your own boss story.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that story didn't turn out very well for me because it turns out that becoming your own boss is not a panacea.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take your certain behaviors that lead to burnout away.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: In my case, actually, it exacerbated them.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was working even harder as my own boss because I suddenly had to make my own money.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I really struggled to like figure it out, like building my own business.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the first thing I tried.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I then went back to corporate and was like, okay, maybe I just need a job that is easier.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had a job that was like a little bit like was easier than my job at Zillow from a scope standpoint.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I wasn't managing a large team and it wasn't as complex.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, somehow didn't like couldn't quite figure out how to bring like get joy back uh fully in that job, uh, even though it was a really actually it was a great and fun time for me at work.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I tried consulting, I tried freelance, I like tried a lot of combinations of things after that.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I started teaching, I tried a lot of different things and I couldn't like it's like I I don't know if you've ever felt this way, like you're looking for something, but you don't even know what you're looking for anymore.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, I want to like my job, but I actually have no idea what that even means for me.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: What doesn't what what does it mean for me to like my job?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And why do I care so much?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe I just need to get a life outside of this job, and like then that will fix everything.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and as I said, like it's it was only after I became a parent and like started sort of like watching my my daughter play that I realized I was not it was not like me being a an individual contributor or being a manager, it's not being in a corporate environment or being my own boss.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: It it wasn't that it's like a feel like what I was trying to find was the feeling, and that feeling can materialize itself in a lot of different environments.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, it's not attached to the corporate structure of like the organization I work for.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a feeling that like I feel like we sort of um as we get older, we forget that we are able to feel play.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And when we feel it, it's easy to ignore it to be like, well, no, because I need to get my next promotion.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, actually, the my career is managed by this ladder and not by the feeling that like we were born with that is like an evolutionary drive and pull towards the things that you actually enjoy.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: I am loving this, and I obviously want to dive into that feeling and play a lot more.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: But before we go there, one thing you've said that really piqued my curiosity was this idea around like the stories that we're getting of I'm happy in my job, or I'm not happy in my job, or you're in a good job and you're in a bad job.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And even as man, I see so much in the entrepreneurship world, I want to be my own boss, I want to be my own boss.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like that is not a great fit for everybody.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm curious for you, what do you think those stories were?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And how did you start to kind of like untangle that?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I just realized they're a lot of them, sorry, but a lot of them are clickbait.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's true.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think it's really compelling.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, everyone wants to believe it's a beautiful story in the end.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a Cinderella story, isn't it?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, you found your true love and you got married, and everything you lived happily ever after.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, do you know how much bullshit happens in happily ever after?
• 17:00
  Mariah: Do you know how many roller coaster rides we're taken on and then we're questioning literally everything all of the time?
• 17:06
  Mariah: But it's the story ends there, and people try to distill it down into the super basic principle because that's the stuff that people want to hear.
• 17:15
  Mariah: They want to be motivated and inspired, but they don't want to be pushed too far in order to think even deeper or self-reflect even deeper.
• 17:22
  Mariah: Because then what does that mean?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a very compelling thing to think that there's something perfect out there.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's compelling in romance, like you, it's compelling in business, like you just want to believe.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I get that.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not as sexy to say actually most jobs like are have things that are wonderful and things that suck.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: And like I think the game is to figure out how do I have for me at least, the game is to figure out how do I have a job and a career where like the things that are wonderful can make up for the shitty parts and then some.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: But like you can't eliminate the shitty stuff.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can never eliminate the shitty stuff.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter who you work with or work for, it's never gonna be perfect.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think like Shay to your question, I think there's a lot of clickbait, and I think we're innately drawn, like, and I think the reason why this clickbait works works is because we are so innately drawn to the Cinderella story.
• 18:25
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• 18:32
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• 18:36
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• 19:01
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• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I really like what you're saying, Rita, because I have also found my own inner peace around this.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I really resonate with your journey.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: I am also the person that's like, I gotta try everything because like this ain't it and this ain't it.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and I still feel like I'm where I have found peace is like the shit, making peace with the shit side of things.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and honestly in a really popular book, it was something about um oh yeah, you have to eat a shit sandwich.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: You have to choose.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: You basically like anything is gonna have a shit sandwich, and you get to choose the flavor, basically.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've just kind of like found this past where I'm like, okay, I can tolerate this shit sandwich and it allows me to live the life I want to live.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: But what you're saying, I think is glass have full sight of this, which I like, which is what's the feeling that you do like, and how can you give yourself permission to have that feeling and let it earn you money?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a bit about like the I'm really curious about like what you've learned about play.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like the feeling that you're going after.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, tell me about how you discovered that and like what that like uh looked like for you.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think by the way, like um, I will say for me, it's like following the feeling of play, whether it earns you money or not.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think that also, I mean, it's now I live in Europe, right?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like I and now I see both sides of the aisle in terms of like um how culturally, like the perspective of work at what it does for a human, like the role it plays in our lives, is so different here than it is in America.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like in America, work gives you a sense of purpose and like it should be somehow aligned and should give you a sense of like your own self worth.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in Europe, it's much less so that way, in general, in very general terms, right?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's different by country, and I don't mean to like super generalize, but in general terms.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for me, it's like the feeling of play, whether following that feeling, whether it's at work or outside.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think there's also some people that don't have necessarily that feeling at work.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: But their personal lives are so playful.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they can have a job that's like this job is shit.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: But like as soon as I'm out of here, my life is like full.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the problem becomes, and this is where I I see this as like a bigger cultural problem when like everything is work.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of the things we do become work.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: So like one of the things that separates like well, as soon as you start reading about play, like one of the things that distinguishes and separates like play from work is this idea of like purpose and objective.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like play is supposed to be something that you do without an objective.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like when children play, they're not like, I must like achieve three games today so that I can feel successful.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, they're playing because they're in the moment.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's no freaking point to it outside of like the play itself.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think probably I for me at least, and I think many people could probably relate to this, like the best moments I've ever had in a job, or actually even outside a job, are those moments where I'm so I'm completely absorbed by the thing that I'm doing, and I'm not thinking about why am I doing it?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is the outcome of this?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: How does this fit into a plan?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not thinking about the objective.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like doing the shit.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I'm in it.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so fun.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's like incredibly fun to be in that space.
• 23:22
  Mariah: How do you think we got here to like going from children that are literally like, I'm gonna go in the backyard?
• 23:30
  Mariah: They're not like I'm going in the backyard and I'm going to garden and pull out four carrots so that I can cut these carrots and then make a carrot salad that I heard is fantastic for my hormones because the end goal of this is to balance.
• 23:41
  Mariah: It's like they're literally like, I just want to put my feet on the dirt, or I just want to play with my mom.
• 23:46
  Mariah: I just want to play with my dad.
• 23:48
  Mariah: They're not even thinking anything, like that's as far as it goes.
• 23:52
  Mariah: So, how did we go from that to us being in this career space?
• 24:00
  Mariah: And so I've never worked for corporate.
• 24:02
  Mariah: I started this business when I was 22 years old.
• 24:04
  Mariah: I'm 11 years in.
• 24:06
  Mariah: I have the power to create whatever the fuck I want.
• 24:10
  Mariah: And I still have these stories of like, yeah, but what's the next goal?
• 24:14
  Mariah: How much did you make this year?
• 24:15
  Mariah: What's your take home?
• 24:16
  Mariah: What's your profit?
• 24:17
  Mariah: What's your revenue, girl?
• 24:18
  Mariah: Like, are we growing?
• 24:19
  Mariah: Are we not growing?
• 24:20
  Mariah: And I'm just like, I love what I do, but if I'm not careful, everything that I do is work because I love it so much.
• 24:28
  Mariah: But like, how did we get here?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: But you also will, you know, it's like you work.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is what happened to me also when I became my own boss.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I felt like I was escaping what felt like a jail, you know?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like Zillow had started to feel like a jail for me for reasons that at the time I couldn't understand.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then I became my own boss and I just built my own jail.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I like little, like, laid all the bricks little by little because I forced myself into these constraints.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I must be sitting in front of a desk at 9 a.m.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: every morning.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: I must have objectives for all my work.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I had like a complete, I was not able to just like feel things anymore.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I swear to God.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't able to just be like, oh, this is interesting.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let me follow that.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder where that goes.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or like, ah, I like this.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is nice.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I was like unable.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: So where does this come from?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's like uh Alison Govnik, who's um a wonderful um like scientist and researcher.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: She she writes that like this transition between childhood and adulthood uh takes someone from what she calls explore mode to exploit mode.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because and it makes sense.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, when you're a child, my kids like walking to the park with my children, it's like they are in full explore mode.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: They will stop and look at a rock, pick it up, stare at it, then they will stop and look at the plants, and I have to pick the plants and I have to organize the like it takes forever, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're exploring constantly.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: But as we transition into adulthood, like obviously that doesn't work.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like you wouldn't survive if you live like that as an adult.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: You'd be very, very happy, most likely, but you would probably die of hunger because you know, if you're a caveman, you need to find some food and like organize your shit, or you know, winter's coming and you need to prepare yourself.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So uh she calls it exploit mode mode, which I find a little bit a little bit harsh.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, damn, that's you know, that's harsh.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I where it comes from is this idea that like you you stop exploring and you start thinking about the outcome of things because that's just survival.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: That is like how you know humans survive.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I s now that my kids are in school, I see where this whole thing starts.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like my daughter is a most playful, curious, like active child.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: But as soon as you start first grade, you have to sit down and you have to do your homework and you get grades, and you now have to care about the outcome of things.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: You never had to care about the outcome of things before when you were allowed to just be in full explore mode.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: But exploit happens very fast, and like for for me, um, I was like a honor student, like I've always been like cared deeply about the outcome of my work, like because that's how I got attention as a kid.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's how people were like, Yay, you're amazing because you got all these grades.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, like failing at anything was like not negotiable because it meant something much deeper for me, much more personal than I think for others.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not the experience of everyone, but it's certainly mine.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for anyone who was like an honor roll child, like teacher's pet, I think you could probably relate to that feeling.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, that's that's where it starts.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like it starts in school.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it kills me because like I tell you that I now as a parent, when my daughter comes home with like straight A's, I celebrate it.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And when I celebrate it, I think to myself, damn it.
• 28:06
  Mariah: Like it's so ingrained.
• 28:08
  Mariah: It's so ingrained.
• 28:09
  Mariah: I relate so deeply to that.
• 28:11
  Mariah: I remember in elementary school, I got my first B when I was in fifth grade and I cried for a week because I was used to straight A's.
• 28:21
  Mariah: I literally almost threw up at the thought of a B.
• 28:24
  Mariah: Yeah.
• 28:25
  Mariah: And I remember my mom being like, Mariah, it's not a big deal.
• 28:28
  Mariah: I was like, respectfully, what, bitch?
• 28:30
  Mariah: Of course it's a big deal.
• 28:31
  Mariah: I'm an A plus student.
• 28:33
  Mariah: Like, that is my identity.
• 28:34
  Mariah: I get praised.
• 28:35
  Mariah: Like you come to honor roll, I hold the certificate, you clap and take photos, and you tell the entire family how smart, intelligent, and funny your daughter is.
• 28:44
  Mariah: Exactly.
• 28:45
  Mariah: If I don't match up to that, who's going to pat me on the head?
• 28:49
  Mariah: And now you're not gonna pay attention to me.
• 28:51
  Mariah: And I noticed it like with my brother with my nieces too.
• 28:54
  Mariah: Like they're in high school, and it's like my niece is now taking this into work.
• 28:58
  Mariah: Little honey is 70 years old.
• 29:00
  Mariah: She's working at Starbucks, she's picking up everybody's shifts over and over again.
• 29:04
  Mariah: She has to visit her mom in Virginia.
• 29:07
  Mariah: Her mom lives out of state.
• 29:08
  Mariah: So for six weeks, she's transferring to Starbucks to work that summer for those six weeks.
• 29:15
  Mariah: And then my brother's like, she's so responsible.
• 29:18
  Mariah: In my head, I'm screaming.
• 29:19
  Mariah: I'm literally like, no, girl, do not work.
• 29:23
  Mariah: This is the only time where you don't have to pay for your own food right now.
• 29:27
  Mariah: Mommy and daddy are still like supporting you keeping feet.
• 29:31
  Mariah: Yes.
• 29:32
  Mariah: But she's even, I just see it with her, and I literally want to like pull back that younger part of her to be like, hey, we used to follow Bob Ross tutorials on YouTube and giggle at how awful they were, and that's how you spent your summer or in the pool, and now you're like looking for more hours to work, and I just see it so clearly that it's like heartbreaking.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know, but I like I can relate to the pull of that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can relate to it.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's something when you're doing well in your job and you're getting another opportunity.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a pull to it for anyone that is an overachiever because you feel like you feel validated and you feel fucking good.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like you do the problem, the problem, and I'll bring this back to Zillow.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that eventually um you will run into a job that you cannot hit the ball out of the park for, at least not immediately.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you're doing if you are actually growing, like if you're not, if you're not really growing in your career, taking lateral jobs, like you know, working within the same confines of the things that you've always been doing, then you might be able to get away with like always being great.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I highly doubt it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because like eventually something is going to happen that is going to push you to a place where you're like, oh, I can't work my way out of this one.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can't study my way out of this test because there actually there is no test.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: What is the test?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is so confusing.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get to that place, I think um you have to look at yourself in the mirror and be able to love yourself even when you're failing.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Be able to say, like, I'm the same person that I was yesterday and the year before.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like equally good.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: These problems are just very hard, and I'm figuring it out.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I was not able to do that.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I was not able to do that back in the day.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, I'll take you to it.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing about play that, you know, characteristic of play is lightness.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's no heaviness to playfulness.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that job at Zillow had to be heavy, was heavy for me because the consequences of failing were dire.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Even though in reality they were not, I was very well supported, like at work.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: My team was amazing.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: The my managers were great.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like the comp as I said, the company culture was the best I've ever seen.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, really top-notch, people everywhere.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: My partner was very supportive.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I had all the conditions to feel light about my challenges and not worry so much.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I just it was not light for me because failing meant that I was a failure, and I couldn't handle it.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: I could not handle that.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think it it just takes a lot of.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think some people naturally can do it.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I see some people that can just fail and be like, I failed, but that was not me.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: It still is not me.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's really still very hard for me to fail.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what in my head I'm sitting here, Rita.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: What you were saying is like deep programming, like deep stuff.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I have it, I know Mariah has it.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we're all, I'm sure our audience is relating to you on every level.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear like the end of the story.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, it sounds like you, I know you don't have it all figured out, none of us do, but like, what did this look like for you?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did you start reprogramming?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't need to get my worth for my achievements, you know.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how can I um allow myself to have fun and forgive myself and not feel lazy or like I'm not doing enough?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what did that process look like for you?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's ongoing, friends.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like happening right now as we're talking because I don't and I hope that you know, when I'm much older, I'm able to say, like, I've changed this part of myself.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, but I I will say, even to a couple of years ago, I fell back into the burnout.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was very close to like going down the same exact path that I went on at Zillow.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very close.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Mariah, I met you around that time.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you saw a glimpse of that, most likely, from your perspective.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I but at least now I'm not good enough that I don't fall into the hole.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still falling into the hole, but at least I know that I've fallen in the hole and that the hole exists.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: When I was at Zillow, I didn't even know there was a hole.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was suddenly just in darkness.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, what happened?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's gonna take longer for me to, and maybe I will never accomplish it to like be the person that when things go wrong, I'm not starting, like, I don't start by blaming myself and being like, that was me.
• 34:17
  Mariah: Um when you're in the hole, because I I agree, and and we talk about this quite often, is like awareness really is the medicine, especially like you need the awareness in order to move forward.
• 34:30
  Mariah: And awareness is more than half of the healing, just realizing that you're in this space, and like obviously it takes some throwing yourself into a wall numerous times in order to realize that there's actually a wall there and that you have control to not throw yourself into it.
• 34:45
  Mariah: But when you're finding yourself in in the hole now, in the rabbit hole in the darkness, what are the steps that you're taking to kind of move yourself out of it?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I well, first of all, I distance myself distance myself.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: I like it, I can't do 10 years of perspective on a job that I'm doing right now, but I can definitely just stop.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like anyone can stop.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you're in the hole, you think, I cannot stop.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is reliant on me keeping going.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: I must keep going and I must do all of these things.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is no, you must not, and you do not have to.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can also stop.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's funny that we all have we all have a lot more power in the jobs that we do.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're not, you know, surgeons saving lives to just take a beat, even just for like two or three days, and like put things down, like write down on a piece of paper all the things that you are working on.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, write them down.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Look at them objectively and like put them in order of the things that actually matter and the things that don't matter.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the most like helpful exercises that I have is just like I I take steps, but I take a step, massive step back and I come up with a plan and I deprioritize things constantly.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: I have to do this almost on like a weekly basis because again, retriever energy.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like signing up for a lot of stuff that I cannot do.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not everyone is like that.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe you don't need to do it as often, but I think taking like owning the fact, owning your power to like reprioritize work and focus on the things that matter is really important.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then as part of that process, I will say this is another big learning for me from Silo.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you are reprioritizing things, doing so also with the awareness of the things that make you feel good and that make you happy.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because you might be if you prioritize all of the things that are very impactful for the business, but guess what?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: You hate all of those things and you hate doing them.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter like how important those were that work is, you're gonna hate your job.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you hate your job, you're honestly not gonna be very good at it.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like that is just like common sense.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um I work really hard to make sure that I prioritize the things that give me energy, even even if it's not something that I must do myself.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: But in the past, I was very thoughtless of that.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I I was not thoughtful, let's put it that way.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thoughtless is that even a word?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was not thoughtful about it.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would just delegate things without the even the things that I love doing myself.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do that anymore.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a big change for me.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um third tactic that I will share is that uh this is more of like a mind uh sort of um, I guess like a mind mindful.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's the mindful, I don't know what to call it, but I like to pretend that I'm a consultant.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like when things get very hard at work, I tell myself, my job here is a McKinsey consultant's job where I am going in, I am identifying the things that are working, the things that are not working, I am calling them out, and I am putting together a plan to fix them.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I am not emotionally tethered to this job.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: My own like sense of self-worth is has nothing to do with this job that I'm doing.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that consult like consultant energy can really help someone who's an overachiever detach that it helps me detach emotionally from the job.
• 38:22
  Mariah: I think that that's that can be really helpful for entrepreneurs too.
• 38:25
  Mariah: It's a it's a little harder to detach when it's like your business and like your business is your baby, and it's just like if you don't, if you don't love this and if you're not doing it, it's like you're gonna have to figure it out like very quickly.
• 38:39
  Mariah: And it's very easy for these wires to cross where it's like how much you make and are you growing and what's your revenue of this year to be solely dependent on you when it's your business.
• 38:50
  Mariah: But I think that that's really good advice, especially for business owners.
• 38:54
  Mariah: Can you come in and kind of look at what you're doing from a consultant perspective and analyzing, like, especially like I talk to business owners, obviously they're drawn to me because of SEO, right?
• 39:09
  Mariah: They love the idea of SEO and getting found in search and in AI.
• 39:13
  Mariah: And it's just like because it's not the social media hamster wheel over and over and over and over again.
• 39:18
  Mariah: But I have to constantly remind people that although SEO, in my opinion, is the foundation of most marketing, because like everything kind of feeds into it, it really does.
• 39:28
  Mariah: But once we have that foundation, now what's next?
• 39:31
  Mariah: You have to SEO can't be your everything.
• 39:35
  Mariah: And so it's like when you're thinking of other marketing tasks or visibility tasks, I try to get people to look at your strengths and your joys.
• 39:43
  Mariah: You can't look at one or the other.
• 39:46
  Mariah: You have to take a look at both of them and like be able to make a decision in terms of like, what do you enjoy doing?
• 39:52
  Mariah: If you don't like talking, don't start a fucking podcast.
• 39:56
  Mariah: Like, just because your grandma's cousins, brother's uncle, you saw like killing it on a podcast.
• 40:01
  Mariah: And I think that, like, especially for entrepreneurs, we can grow this any way that we want to.
• 40:09
  Mariah: It's so easy to find ourselves with our back up against the wall and forget that we have decision freedom.
• 40:16
  Mariah: But I see it with my husband too, who we tried entrepreneurship for him and poor little honey baby.
• 40:21
  Mariah: He is not, and he cannot run his own business.
• 40:24
  Mariah: He was like, I will gladly work somewhere else.
• 40:26
  Mariah: But like what we realized for him is like, you get to choose there too.
• 40:31
  Mariah: You can't quit this fucking job.
• 40:34
  Mariah: If you hate it in three months, you don't have to stick it out and have a 45-year career like your grandfather did.
• 40:41
  Mariah: You can learn these skills and then decide.
• 40:44
  Mariah: And I think just as humans, especially in how we live in this age with AI, with the internet, we're just surrounded by so many unlimited possibilities that we forget that we have the option to choose.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Not only do you have the option to obviously, you know, stay in a job or leave the job most places, but within the job itself, you have a lot of options for choosing the things that you focus your time and your energy on.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like there are very few managers out there, and if you have one of those managers, I'm really sorry for you.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: But very few managers that if they have an employee or like a director board that comes and says, I'm super passionate about this project, like I want to continue working on this, even if it's like 2% of my time.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Can I do it?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I would never say no to that.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess because I have a very strong understanding that like you can never, like, one thing that you can never beat is a person that's having fun.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you can't beat them because the person that's having fun at their job will work longer, happier, will get other people involved.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, those are the most motivated people.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: So for me as a manager, I really care about the people that report to me having fun.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I also care about myself having fun.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think we we ourselves, it's like a thing that we have a lot more power to control, but we don't.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: We don't because we have we have been told the narrative that like your job as a marketer is to increase shareholder value or the like you need to drive these KPIs, even if you drive yourself crazy.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Drive the KPIs.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you could drive the KPIs and also prioritize work that fills you with energy so that you can put up with all the shittiness that will come with your job because it will come if it's not there right now, it's gonna come.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I agree with you, Mariah.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: You have a lot of like, even if you are not working for yourself, if you're working for a company, you have a lot more power, even in a junior position, to like advocate for yourself, to prioritize projects that fill you with like energy and excitement to pursue the things that feel fun.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: But you need to, you need to actually be able to know that feeling, feel that feeling, and talk about it for that to happen.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think unfortunately, like we are we live in a in a working environment, I think a culture where like it's often hard to feel that because we're bombarded with so much information constantly, like we're not in our bodies anymore.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're just on the internet.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: That makes it harder.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of just hit on the whole through line of this entire podcast, which is amazing.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I do want to highlight a couple things you are saying that are interesting.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I want to ask you a question.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I really think a lot of us take our thoughts too seriously.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like we what you're saying, I've said that live before too.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not a doctor, I'm not saving lives, but man, do I wake up in the middle of the night with sweaty palms worrying about this and that?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, why, why, why am I taking this so seriously?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really like what you're saying about detaching emotionally and giving yourself, I think that's something that we struggle with is how the emotions get all wrapped up in this.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that can make it really hard to detach.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I like what you're saying about just give yourself space.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've never thought about like in these moments.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can't see the forest of the trees.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I get frustrated with myself because I'm like, why do I feel this way?
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I I'm a solver, I'm a problem solver, and I can't solve my own problems, you know?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I love the advice of like take a step back.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's all it is.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is not that important, guys.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: This we've all I feel sad for doctors because it is that important.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: They can't tell themselves this.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: But us, like we're marketers, like this is we can have fun.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can be joyful and light.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And like what a relief that is.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I just like what you're saying is so lovely.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: And something I'd love to hear your process a little bit more on is like this idea of it sounds like you went through a priority prioritization process of like what matters.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then you thought about like, okay, in my life, these are my priorities, and you kind of organize things based on those priorities.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I think a lot of us struggle in that moment to even know, like, I don't even know what matters to me anymore.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what my priorities are.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what gives me joy.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling that like now I'm feeling like I don't nothing.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: It all feels like chores is something that I have said so hard.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: So like in that so you've taken a step back, and I'm curious about like, how do you even go about knowing what your own priorities are to kind of like shift things around?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm as I said, like I I speak about this, but I'm not out of the hole.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I will always be, I will be back in and out of this little hole, I think, for a very long time.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it's it's so ingrained, I think, in me and probably many of us.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say like one quick thing before we talk about like the my own process is that I also have that like that has been said to me in when I was in the throes of my burnout.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I remember a lot of people said to me, but you're not like a you're not like a doctor.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like stop worrying.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just not that important.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: And nothing would make me angrier.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'd be like, I know.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Do you realize I don't?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I know that.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: That actually makes me feel worse because I feel like a total piece of shit that actually doesn't have a job that is like saving lives or anything and is somehow still worried about it.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll tell you where I landed with that, which is I tell myself this all the time, like, and I've tell people, you know, in my team, like, yes, it's not, it's important.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like your job is important and it's important to you.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: My job is important to me.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: It is, but it doesn't have to be serious.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I get to choose how serious it is.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I get to like make it lighter.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work all the time, right?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: But this idea of important, not serious, has really helped me frame, um, really helped me frame like how I how I think about this, like you're not a doctor question.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in terms of my process, like honestly, for me, it's an eternal struggle to like follow just my own follow the feeling.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I have moments where I do it really well, I have moments when I don't.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think we can all we can immediately uh know when things feel playful.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like that feeling we'd known since children, we were born with the ability to play.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me, um, I haven't fixed a lot of things in terms of my own relationship with work and like how I would like that to be in the next decade or two of my life.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing that has gotten a lot better for me and that I think is the solution, at least for me, is that I now can I'm really aware of when things are playful, and when they are, I'm like, oh, that was playful.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: That was so playful.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: Why was it playful?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't jump to these simple conclusions of like, oh, it was playful because I'm my own boss, and being my own boss means play.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, I really take time to deconstruct it.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why was it playful?
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: Was it the people that were around me?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Was it the fact that like I was really enjoying the actual work itself?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Had I slept well the night before?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are the different elements that make for an environment and a job or a thing to feel that way?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's very different for different people.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: But becoming like learning to identify when play happens and then taking just a little bit of time to try to deconstruct it.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that those moments hold so many clues about the things that we are like naturally, that we naturally gravitate towards, but stop doing because we have LinkedIn telling us that we need to start our own consulting company and then also be an influencer and start a YouTube channel and lili lily, you know?
• 48:29
  Mariah: The LinkedIn AI comments are sending me into a hole of rage lately where it's like you post one thing and then people just regurgitate your fucking post, and then I'm just like I I have a bone to pick with LinkedIn, but I love what you're saying because it's so simple, but it's not easy, right?
• 48:52
  Mariah: Like the biggest piece here is like it's reflection.
• 48:56
  Mariah: And I think in order to reflect, you need space, which is half of the battle.
• 49:02
  Mariah: Because if I think about like when I'm really enjoying my work and what I do, it's when I have the space to really enjoy the work that I do.
• 49:12
  Mariah: When I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed out and like burning out, even on like a day-to-day level, I knock on wood, have not in my career hit a thing, like hit a period of time where I have felt burnout for an extended period of time, but it'll pop up in different weeks and different days.
• 49:28
  Mariah: And it's like these little burnout micro moments.
• 49:31
  Mariah: And to me, like one of the yellow flags is like where I'm not excited to cook dinner for myself.
• 49:37
  Mariah: When it's like that is something that I truly love doing is cooking and nourishing myself and getting creative in the kitchen and all of that.
• 49:44
  Mariah: And so when I'm annoyed and trying to rush through dinner, uh, I'm not creating space for the things that I really enjoy.
• 49:50
  Mariah: And then I look at my to-do list, I go, oh, no wonder, because I've said yes to too many fucking things.
• 49:55
  Mariah: And now I have all of these things that feel so damn important.
• 49:58
  Mariah: But really, what I need to do is step back and exactly what you're saying of like deprioritize, but it takes that space and pulling back.
• 50:06
  Mariah: And like what you were saying about like you have to stop.
• 50:10
  Mariah: You have to, even in that moment, man, your cortisol and your dopamine are literally like fucking Pac-Man, and you're just like like you could just eat up the next task because it keeps you going on this hamster wheel.
• 50:22
  Mariah: And it's very important that you stop and create space to reflect.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's there's two things.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's like, as you said, there's the the reflection of when you are when you feel like something is off and you're not feeling great.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me, it's like I can't read.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like a big reader of fiction.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when I'm not in a good place, when I'm starting to veer into overworked territory, I read the same sentence five times.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I am just my head is clouded with thoughts, and that for me is a warning sign.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that level of awareness and being like, oh, okay, little alarm bell.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I need to take a step back, like what's going on here.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: But my other point, which I think is made less often, is that reflection also needs to happen from moments that are very positive.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because we often, like, I feel like there's often a lot of like, well, first signs of burnout, like spot them, cure yourself, like save yourself from burnout.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: But there's, I feel like, less conversation about the signs of play, like the signs that you are loving what you're doing and like really taking time to deeply understand why that is in you.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's again individual per person.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can tell you the things that make for a playful environment for me, they will be probably incredibly different for you.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: But taking the time to do that as much as we track like when we're not feeling well, I think is equally important.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe even more important, right?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not used to doing that.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're used to being like, when things are painful, why is it painful?
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: And not like when things are amazing, why is it that they're amazing?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's so insightful.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you're saying, I don't think I've ever hurt anybody besides the bullshit, I bought an island and I'm an entrepreneur, right?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: But really like thoughtful deconstructing of what is giving me life out of this is a conversation that doesn't get had.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I like what you're saying about play.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've kind of come up on this idea of play a few times on the podcast.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like something I always like to hear, but I find it unsatisfying because I'm like, well, what is play?
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're right, it's so deeply individual.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that you have to look what Mariah said, give yourself the space when you're saying reflect on what is giving you life and energy.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if play is kind of, I don't want to say a triggering word, but kind of throwing you off.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard you use some other language around like what gives you energy.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it's like, what makes me feel alive?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like what do I yeah?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's it can, I think if play is a weird word for you, it can be just like what is the thing that lights you up in this life, um, makes your heart kind of patter a little bit.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: Even maybe things that get you enraged are like good clues, but just things that like make you feel.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: I really love how you've tied this all back to like feeling.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: Are you listening to yourself?
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: Are you taking your own feelings seriously?
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other side of this conversation, Rita, you're so thoughtful.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm reflecting, like, all of us are really thoughtful.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that like is our superpower, but it also can become like a bat that we beat ourselves over the head with of like totally, how serious is my job?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: And am I totally fulfilled in my job?
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: And am I beating all like winning all the goals?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like our thoughtfulness is almost turning against us and becoming our enemy.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so this I this conversation of like there's no one answer.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: I and it's just awareness, and it's just I think I'm feeling really seen and validated in this conversation because the things you're sharing are like these are my thoughts, and I agree with you.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm in the well too, and I and I don't have it all figured it out, but I'm like really encouraged to just like the the way you've put language to all this is really beautiful.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm saying all this to say is like okay, decade, exactly.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta remember that, right?
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: But but you've brought up a few ideas around play, and I just want to make sure that we've given you enough space.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I heard you say like play has no objectives, play should feel right.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any other, like, I know we can't define play for every single person exactly, but are there any other tenets of play that you've learned and wanted to share about it?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say like there's a lot.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, play is actually a really interesting thing to dig into because it's studied by so many different types of researchers and scientists, like developmental psychologists and like evolutionary like uh scientists, like so many different people approach play from different areas, and I am definitely not a play expert.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: I will say that.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um so this is like my research and also just mostly from my own experience.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that um comes up consistently in everything I read about play is this idea of play being defined as a mindset.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I grew up always thinking, well, play is like an activity, right?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm gonna go play Monopoly.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like Monopoly is play.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am gonna go, like, you know, uh run around in the park.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like playing in the park is play.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sitting down at a desk, that's work.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, doing my homework, that's work.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for anyone that's ever felt like very inspired by their work or has lost track of time or felt energized by something that you're doing for a living or as a student, you understand that that definition that that we I think are raised with around the difference between work and play and this idea of like work-life balance that we, you know, that we are always encounter, is not true.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have had, like, I've had moments at work that have felt so playful.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if I tell you, I think one of the most like playful moments I've had in my job was one time, actually at Zillow, where my friend, my work wife at the time, and I had to investigate why our revenue was down.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we like basically had to do call center analytics to figure out why.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was when I reflect on like what were the moments in my in my career that have been the most playful, that's at the very top.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: You would never think that.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you say call center analytics to anyone and try to tell them, like, is this play or work?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: They will say work.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is what it sounds like.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, awful.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't for me, it was so incredibly playful.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, this is where I'm saying about thinking about those moments that are probably it's probably surprising what they are for each of us.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: And my deconstruction of that moment really helped.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the themes of all the moments that felt playful for me carry on.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me, playfulness happens when there's a high degree of safety, and like I'm working with people that I feel like it doesn't like I can just fail.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a core tenant of play too.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's what parents do for children.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we provide safety so that they can play and learn.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other thing is I love like creative problem solving.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I'm with someone that like we're just bouncing ideas back and forth, and actually it doesn't matter what it's about.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: I always thought it had to be writing, I always thought it had to be like something creative, but it turns out that call center analytics will do.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: It actually doesn't matter to me what it is.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the back and forth problem solving that activates this like feeling of play.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then the third part, which I was ashamed of for a long time, is that I like it, I really enjoy a performative aspect.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love performing.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: So in front of the camera, like in a meeting.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me, like leading a meeting is a performance, and this activates a sense of play.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that call center moment had all those three things, all of those three.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it felt really playful.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if I had to add one more thing as you as you asked, Shay, like about play that's important for people to take away is this idea that play is a mindset, it's a state of mind, it's not an activity, and it's worth reflecting on what puts you in that state of mind.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: What are the things?
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you might be very surprised at what those are.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then following up to that question is what can you do to bring that into your life more at work or outside?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: It could be both.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: Your work doesn't have to be playful, it's work in the end, right?
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we all need play in our lives, like whether it's inside or outside of work.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it starts with recognizing it.
• 58:37
  Mariah: I could listen to you talk about this for hours and hours.
• 58:41
  Mariah: Like, like seriously, it's so it's so good.
• 58:44
  Mariah: And you're just like pulling together so many strings, and you have this unique perspective.
• 58:49
  Mariah: Like, we've had conversations with people about play before, and they everybody has this different perspective based on their experience.
• 58:57
  Mariah: And I just want to share just like how inspiring and motivating like your language is and the way that you look at it, and how you're really humble throughout it, where you're just like, bitch, we're in this together.
• 59:10
  Mariah: Like, I'm not like I'm I don't have it all figured out and I'm turning around and telling you what to do.
• 59:15
  Mariah: It's kind of like we're linking arms and it's like sharing information and communicating our way through this, and like that's community, right?
• 59:23
  Mariah: And so, Rita, I just want to thank you for coming on the podcast, for sharing your genius.
• 59:28
  Mariah: This this conversation is so, so good.
• 59:31
  Mariah: And if people want to learn more about you and your perspective on this stuff, where can they find and connect with you?
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: Probably the easiest thing is LinkedIn, shamefully.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just pile on to the career advice that you get on LinkedIn, ironically, right?
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, but hopefully, this is a different type of career advice, which is the advice of stop listening to what other people have to say about what you should be doing and start listening to yourself.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually, no one has the answers, only you have the answers.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to enjoy your work, right?
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you just want to get paid more, then yeah, climb the ladder, go for it.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: But we're talking about liking what you do for a living.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: Different, like no one else knows the answer to that, only you know it.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I will tell you that on LinkedIn many, many times in different ways.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, related to marketing.
• 1:00:21
  Mariah: Yes, yeah.
• 1:00:22
  Mariah: Rita is definitely worth following.
• 1:00:24
  Mariah: Her posts are are really, really great.
• 1:00:27
  Mariah: And so we'll leave a link to her LinkedIn profile below and her website.
• 1:00:31
  Mariah: And then before we let you go, we have one question that we ask every human on the podcast.
• 1:00:36
  Mariah: What has been sparking your curiosity lately?
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what a great question.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, ironically, and not ironically, that is not ironic, but like this is another thing where you might be like, this is actually not so interesting.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I am spending a lot of time digging into AI search.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: Just an ungodly amount of time.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um I find that fascinating.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just like I am lost in like like hours go by and I'm just like reading like post after podcast after article after you know, Google documentation, open AI documentation on the topic.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that is what at the time in this very moment is sparking my curiosity.
• 1:01:22
  Mariah: Well, I feel like a lot of marketers well, I feel like you're also like in the perfect field.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I'm doing it for my job, actually.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm doing it mostly for SEMrush.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's been really interesting.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: I also, I mean, this is a separate thing, but um, I've thought less about this, but like how wonderful it is to dig into something very deeply.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: I like forget sometimes how much I myself enjoy like going super deep into something.
• 1:01:50
  Mariah: The research rabbit holes and just like how deeply fulfilling they are when you end up on the other side and you know that there's so much more that you could explore, but you've also like figured out more than your friends.
• 1:02:03
  Mariah: And then like you get coffee with your friend and you're like, yo, bitch, did you know X, Y, and Z?
• 1:02:07
  Mariah: And they're like, Oh my god, I had no idea.
• 1:02:08
  Mariah: And you're like, that's just the surface.
• 1:02:10
  Mariah: Like, I'll come back in two weeks and we can have a full other conversation.
• 1:02:13
  Mariah: So, research rabbit hole, to be honest, is probably the entire reason why me and Shay started this podcast.
• 1:02:18
  Mariah: Like, it's the different, we're so curious about like all of these different things that people do.
• 1:02:23
  Mariah: And so, like I said, we just want to thank you again for coming on the podcast.
• 1:02:28
  Mariah: We're going to leave all of Lita's rink uh links below, but I think we're ready to close this episode down.
• 1:02:35
  Mariah: So remember, friends, that you have the power to create whatever the fuck you want.
• 1:02:40
  Mariah: Follow the nudge, ask questions, and let curiosity guide the way.
• 1:02:44
  Mariah: We'll see you in the next episode.