Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #649 Bringing Up Boys With Dr Arne Rubinstein

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#649 Bringing Up Boys With Dr Arne Rubinstein · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast It's the podcast for the
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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now Well. Every
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Speaker 1: Wednesday on the Happy Families Podcasts, I have a conversation
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Speaker 1: with somebody who has something to contribute to the way
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Speaker 1: you're bringing up your kids, a way to make your
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Speaker 1: family happier, a way to tap into the very best
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Speaker 1: in you and help you to see the very best
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Speaker 1: in your children. Today's guest is no exception. I'm really
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Speaker 1: super excited to be able to spend some time talking
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Speaker 1: today with doctor Arna Rubinstein. Now, the conversation that we're
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Speaker 1: going to have is actually part of the Bringing Up Boys' Summit.
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Speaker 1: The Bringing Up Boys Summit was held earlier this year,
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Speaker 1: and we had a whole lot of experts from around
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Speaker 1: the world join us for conversations about what it is
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Speaker 1: to bring up boys. But I think that you'll find
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Speaker 1: that this content is useful not just for parents of boys,
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Speaker 1: but for parents generally. My sense is that hearing what
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Speaker 1: doctor Arna Rubinstein has to say will make a big
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Speaker 1: difference in the way you engage with your family. Doctor
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Speaker 1: Arna is the CEO and founder of the Rights of
1:04
Speaker 1: Passage Institute. He has over thirty years experience as a
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Speaker 1: medical doctor, counselor, mentor, a speaker and a workshop facilitator.
1:12
Speaker 1: The programs, the seminars and the camps that he's helped
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Speaker 1: to develop have been attended by more than three hundred
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Speaker 1: and fifty thousand people globally, while some of the largest
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Speaker 1: schools in Australia have implemented his framework in wonderful ways.
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Speaker 1: His programs are designed to support boys and girls to
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Speaker 1: successfully transition healthy, safely into adulthood. His goal is to
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Speaker 1: make rights of passage mainstream once again. Doctor Arna Rubinstein
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Speaker 1: is the proud father of two wonderful young men and
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Speaker 1: a mentor to many others, and he joined me for
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Speaker 1: this discussion about why boys seem to be natural risk takers.
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Speaker 2: There's a reason for it. And when I studied passage
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Speaker 2: all over the world, what I discovered that extraordinarily, despite
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Speaker 2: the fact that they never met each other, they all
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Speaker 2: did the same thing. So they all reckon. They all
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Speaker 2: did at the same age sort of when the boys
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Speaker 2: were hitting puberty, and they would always be taken away.
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Speaker 2: And then there would be four elements that always happened.
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Speaker 2: The first is that the boys get to hear the
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Speaker 2: stories of the elders. They get to hear the men
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Speaker 2: talking about their lives and the big things that had
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Speaker 2: impact in their lives. And that's how they actually received
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Speaker 2: wisdom and knowledge, not by being told how to live
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Speaker 2: their lives and what to do, but by actually hearing
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Speaker 2: the stories. So stories were an incredibly important part of
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Speaker 2: ruts of passage. That was the first element. The second
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Speaker 2: element is there's always a challenge, and there was always
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Speaker 2: a challenge that pushed a boy to his edge. And
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Speaker 2: actually it did a couple of things. It actually made
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Speaker 2: him face his own mortality and fear, and it humbled him.
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Speaker 2: It humbled him, which is very interesting because if this
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Speaker 2: is anate need inside a boy, and if we don't
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Speaker 2: create it for him, he will go and do it himself.
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Speaker 2: He will push himself to a point where his mortality
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Speaker 2: is challenged, and if there's no supervision, the danger is
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Speaker 2: that he'll actually kill himself or badly injure himself, which
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Speaker 2: you know, I know I did emergency man, I did retrieval,
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Speaker 2: medicine and order. All the young men even make it
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Speaker 2: to the hospital. And so I actually believe that every
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Speaker 2: boy is going to go through a rite of passage.
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Speaker 2: The question is are they going to create their own
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Speaker 2: which you know, we hope is not too disastrous, or
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Speaker 2: we're going to create something for them which is actually appropriate.
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Speaker 2: So and then the other thing is if the humbling
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Speaker 2: doesn't occur, then they end up arrogant and entitled. And
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Speaker 2: you know how many young men do we know out
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Speaker 2: there who are our and entitled and think the world
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Speaker 2: is there for them and their role is to take
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Speaker 2: as much as they can. So that was the set
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Speaker 2: the first element story. The second element, there's always a challenge.
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Speaker 2: The third element is creating a vision for how you
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Speaker 2: want to be in the future. What sort of man
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Speaker 2: do you want to be, what's your role? You know,
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Speaker 2: how do you want to be in the community. And
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Speaker 2: included in that vision is what are the from your
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Speaker 2: childhood that you need to let go of if you're
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Speaker 2: going to become that man. And then the fourth element
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Speaker 2: I call it an honoring or a recognition of spirit,
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Speaker 2: and it's based on this idea that every boy is different,
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Speaker 2: and every boy is born with their own unique gifts
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Speaker 2: and talents, their own genius and spirit. And one of
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Speaker 2: the key things of a rite of passage is to
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Speaker 2: recognize and bring out those gifts, bring out that talent,
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Speaker 2: bring out that spirit, and they were things that were
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Speaker 2: done and so our challenge is them to make that
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Speaker 2: appropriate for today, because we don't live in the jungles
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Speaker 2: of Africa or Papua New Guinea to one hundred years ago,
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Speaker 2: the deserts of Australia. It's whatever we do has to
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Speaker 2: be appropriate for now. And I can talk about that.
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Speaker 2: But if we don't do those things, we don't create
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Speaker 2: a rite of passage. The danger is the boys do
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Speaker 2: not evolve and end up becoming physically adult men, but
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Speaker 2: still with the psyche the behavior boy, which is a disaster.
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Speaker 1: So in your book The Making of Men, you actually
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Speaker 1: talk about a world that runs on boy psychology?
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Speaker 2: Correct?
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Speaker 1: Can you just maybe? Because I definitely want to get
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Speaker 1: to these solutions and these ideas about what we can
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Speaker 1: do it, Because we're not going to send our kids
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Speaker 1: out to hunt a wildline in the forest just down
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Speaker 1: the street here, what do we do to what does
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Speaker 1: a world running on boy psychology look like?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? So when I was doing the work, someone said, well,
5:54
Speaker 2: if you're going to talk about boys to men, you
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Speaker 2: have to be able to define the difference. I wrote
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Speaker 2: a model boyscology, healthy man psychology, and boy socologe is
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Speaker 2: what we typically see in a six to eight year
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Speaker 2: old boy. I'm the center of the universe. It's all
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Speaker 2: about me, all about me, Me, me, Me. I want
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Speaker 2: constant acknowledgment. I can't handle my emotions if something goes wrong,
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Speaker 2: I have a temper tantrum. I want as much power
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Speaker 2: as possible. I'm going to live forever. I can never
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Speaker 2: be wrong, never wrong. And I want a mother. I
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Speaker 2: want a mother to be my surch to do everything
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Speaker 2: for me, to tell me how wonderful I am, to
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Speaker 2: just be on call twenty four to seven. Now, that's
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Speaker 2: fine in a six to eight year old, But if
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Speaker 2: you imagine a man like a global leader or a
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Speaker 2: head of community or ahead of a family, who still
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Speaker 2: thinks he's the center of the universe, still thinks it's
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Speaker 2: all about himself, wants as much power as possible, can
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Speaker 2: never be wrong. When he doesn't get what he wants,
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Speaker 2: he has a temper tantrum and wants a mother instead
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Speaker 2: of a relationship. That's a major problem. And I can
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Speaker 2: think we live in a world that's run by boys.
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Speaker 1: I was about to say, isn't it great? That all
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Speaker 1: of the men who run various countries in our wom
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Speaker 1: who have done isn't it isn't it wonderful that they've
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Speaker 1: actually matured from that boy psych That's right.
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Speaker 2: We don't Yeah, you know, it's but it's a serious
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Speaker 2: issue when those men can put buttons that change the
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Speaker 2: lives of hundreds of thousands or millions of people, or
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Speaker 2: make decisions. You know, do we want those decisions to
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Speaker 2: be that for the best of the people or for
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Speaker 2: the best of that person? And so healthy man psychology
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Speaker 2: is I'm not the center of the universe. I'm part
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Speaker 2: of a community, and power is not just for me.
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Speaker 2: Power is so I can do more good in my community.
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Speaker 2: And if something doesn't work, I don't have a temper tantrum.
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Speaker 2: That's actually domestic violence. I have to be able to
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Speaker 2: stand with my emotions. And I'm not going to live forever.
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Speaker 2: One day I'm going to die, and I'm not always right.
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Speaker 2: I make mistakes. When I do make mistakes, I have
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Speaker 2: to be accountable. And finally, I'm not looking for a mother.
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Speaker 2: I'm looking for genuine relationship. And when I give my talks,
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Speaker 2: which I do all around Bain around the world, and
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Speaker 2: I talk about this model, and I say, to any
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Speaker 2: of the women in the audience, know, any men who
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Speaker 2: still think that the center of the universe, want power, acknowledgment,
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Speaker 2: can't stand their emotions and never wrong, and want a mother.
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Speaker 2: And you see the women and they sort of think,
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Speaker 2: and they look at their husband and they look back,
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Speaker 2: and then there's this sort of this awkward shuffle, and
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Speaker 2: you know, we know exactly what I'm talking about here,
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Speaker 2: and it's actually not okay. And all the stuff we're
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Speaker 2: seeing in the me too movement and toxic masculinity and
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Speaker 2: the patriarchy, and that's all inappropriate boy behavior from men,
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Speaker 2: and it's just it's not okay. It's completely not okay.
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Speaker 2: And a big part of it is because we don't
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Speaker 2: have the rights of passage to create this shift from
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Speaker 2: boy to.
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Speaker 1: Man okay, So you can't start raising a teenager once
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Speaker 1: it becomes a teenager. We shouldn't necessarily say that we
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Speaker 1: can still do some good, right, it's never actually too late.
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Speaker 1: But we've got parents of boys from eight to eighteen
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Speaker 1: who are watching as many of them are actually watching
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Speaker 1: it with their boys. In the book, you've got quite
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Speaker 1: a lot in chapter five about how you can't start
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Speaker 1: raising a teenager once it becomes one. So we need
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Speaker 1: to we need to start pairing young boys the right
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Speaker 1: way to transition them effectively from that boys psychology into
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Speaker 1: what it is to be a man. When do we start?
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Speaker 1: How does this golas? This happened because by the way,
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Speaker 1: you're not sending eight year olds out for these rights
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Speaker 1: of passages opportunities as they're moving through with their adolescence.
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Speaker 2: Now, look, that's completely true, and it is one am
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Speaker 2: I saying you can't start raising you know, teenage. You
9:49
Speaker 2: want to say, become a teenager. So it does come
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Speaker 2: down to parenting. And one of the things I've discovered,
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Speaker 2: despite the fact that my main interest has been right
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Speaker 2: to passage, is there is a parenting issue and meaning
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Speaker 2: any parents feel very lost and feel like they don't
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Speaker 2: have a basic sort of God book and they want
10:05
Speaker 2: to be the best parents they can, but A it's
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Speaker 2: hard because they're so busy, their children are so busy.
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Speaker 2: There's so much technology available every moment, and there's not
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Speaker 2: a lot of I have found a lot of great guidance.
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Speaker 2: So even though I do not want to be a
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Speaker 2: parenting expert, I have found myself drawn into that sort
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Speaker 2: of area, and we developed a model and I can
10:27
Speaker 2: give you the link to send it up if that's okay.
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Speaker 2: On the thing great, And we talk about seven strategies
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Speaker 2: for building healthy relationships with our sons. And the first,
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Speaker 2: and it's quite basic, but our experience has been that
10:43
Speaker 2: parents love this knowledge. And the first is finding something
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Speaker 2: that you both enjoy doing together, turning off your mobile
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Speaker 2: phone and doing it regularly. And this is for dads
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Speaker 2: and mums. And it might be walking the dog, it
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Speaker 2: might be going fishing, it might be listening to music,
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Speaker 2: it might be having a cup of tea, whatever it is.
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Speaker 2: But first of all, if you're going to have a
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Speaker 2: relationship with someone, you have to have time with them.
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Speaker 2: And extraordinarily I find a lot of especially dads, just
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Speaker 2: never have one on one time with their children. That's
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Speaker 2: the first one. I'll just name a few of them.
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Speaker 2: The second is practicing acknowledging what they do well, so
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Speaker 2: you know if you see them do something well, or
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Speaker 2: their gifts or whatever you actually name it. It's very easy
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Speaker 2: for parents just to tell their kids what they're doing wrong.
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Speaker 2: And once again especially dads, but it is a very
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Speaker 2: good name the things they do well teaching skills of reflection,
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Speaker 2: so when something happens, ask your child what they think
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Speaker 2: about it first, rather than just giving them the lesson
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Speaker 2: and saying if they have a problem, getting them they
11:44
Speaker 2: can come up with a possible solution or some ideas
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Speaker 2: and then working with them on that. And then the
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Speaker 2: last one I'll mention is that when something goes wrong,
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Speaker 2: when they do something wrong, which will happen at some stage,
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Speaker 2: separating a person from the behavior. So you know, I
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Speaker 2: still love you, but you know, burning down the house
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Speaker 2: was not okay, or you know, hitting it, hitting your
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Speaker 2: sisters not okay. We've got to talk about that, you know,
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Speaker 2: Or if they don't do well at school, rather than
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Speaker 2: shaming them, saying, hey, what's going on? You know, because
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Speaker 2: one of the things we know with boys is when
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Speaker 2: they act out often that actually means they've got a
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Speaker 2: problem going on. So their way of expressing the problem
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Speaker 2: is actually acting out. So those sorts of things, and
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Speaker 2: we have like a wheel where we have all those
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Speaker 2: things and parents can give themselves a mark out of
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Speaker 2: ten in each of those areas and then join the dots,
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Speaker 2: and you know, it's a simple thing. And the final one,
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Speaker 2: actually I will mention is sharing stories about when you
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Speaker 2: were their age, including what went well and what didn't
12:51
Speaker 2: go well, and those sorts of things. It's just about
12:54
Speaker 2: building up strong, healthy relationship. Actually, there is one more
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Speaker 2: which I do need to mention keep going, connecting privileges
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Speaker 2: with responsibility. I can't not name that, because when we
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Speaker 2: just give our boys everything regardless of how they behave,
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Speaker 2: regardless of how they are, and they become entitled. That's
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Speaker 2: a problem. And from quite an early age, yes, we
13:17
Speaker 2: give them things, but if there's an agreement, like you know,
13:21
Speaker 2: you'll take your dishes into the kitchen, or you'll tidy
13:25
Speaker 2: your room, or you'll you know, be home when you
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Speaker 2: say you're going to be home, and the privileges come
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Speaker 2: together with that, that's a very important lesson because if
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Speaker 2: we don't teach it to young as teenagers, when they're
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Speaker 2: you know, six inches taller than us and big and
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Speaker 2: strong and grumpy, that's not the time to be trying
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Speaker 2: to sort of put in the boundaries. And unfortunately, I
13:47
Speaker 2: get a lot of phone calls from pants who say,
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Speaker 2: I don't know what happened to my twelve thirteen year
13:51
Speaker 2: old son overnight. They won't tak me they won't cuddle me.
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Speaker 2: They just go in their room and lock the door,
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Speaker 2: you know, and there's a war going on in the house. So,
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Speaker 2: you know, I think there's a lot we can do
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Speaker 2: around our sort of early stage parenting.
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Speaker 1: Throughout those ideas that you've just shared, you've used dads
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Speaker 1: and the importance of his role multiple times. Can you
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Speaker 1: just talk a little bit about I mean, you've talked
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Speaker 1: about rights of passage and the elders, the men go away,
14:21
Speaker 1: the elders spend time talking with the youngsters, and once
14:23
Speaker 1: again you've brought you brought the dads in the male
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Speaker 1: role model. There's two parts to this question, and I'm
14:30
Speaker 1: not supposed to ask two questions at once, but they
14:32
Speaker 1: flow together. The first that can you just talk about
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Speaker 1: why dads are so important? But the follow up is
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Speaker 1: there's going to be a whole bunch of single mums
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Speaker 1: who are watching this. There's going to be a whole
14:41
Speaker 1: lot of families where dad is either not safe or
14:43
Speaker 1: not present, or for whatever reason, wants to be but
14:46
Speaker 1: maybe even can't be. We want to give dads a
14:48
Speaker 1: benefit of the dud as often as we can as well.
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Speaker 1: What are parents do in that situation?
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Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, thank you for being that up. Equally
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Speaker 2: important dads and mums for sure, But the the thing
15:00
Speaker 2: that we often find is that mums are so much
15:03
Speaker 2: more present. And these are generalizations, but you know, very
15:08
Speaker 2: often the mums have, you know, so much more to do,
15:13
Speaker 2: especially in the early years with boys, and and we
15:19
Speaker 2: do have a lot of single mums who are trying
15:21
Speaker 2: to be mum and dad, which is very difficult. And
15:24
Speaker 2: one of our recommendations there is to bring for the mums,
15:28
Speaker 2: to bring other men in, whether it's uncles, friends, grandfathers,
15:33
Speaker 2: are brilliant to bring that influence in. And what I
15:37
Speaker 2: also say to mums, there's a new really key things here,
15:40
Speaker 2: which is, you know, not to put up with inappropriate
15:43
Speaker 2: behavior from your boys. They've got to learn early that
15:46
Speaker 2: swearing at you, trying to hit you, you know, any
15:50
Speaker 2: of that stuff is just not okay, and they need
15:52
Speaker 2: to learn that while they're with you in the house.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's a tricky one because you're right, something
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Speaker 2: like like a third of boys are now being brought
16:02
Speaker 2: up by single mums and not having contact with their fathers.
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Speaker 2: So anything we can do to support mums is really important.
16:09
Speaker 2: And I've actually got a chapter about that in my book.
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Speaker 2: So and those same principles with the mums are finding
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Speaker 2: something you can do with your son one on one,
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Speaker 2: sharing stories, separating the person from the behavior. All of
16:23
Speaker 2: those things are as important as well as doing whatever
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Speaker 2: you can to have good men in the life of
16:30
Speaker 2: your boys. And we look at it as a community thing.
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Speaker 2: So you know, I say, dads whenever I work with them,
16:36
Speaker 2: you know, keep an eye out not only on your boy,
16:39
Speaker 2: but all the boy. And the ideas were sort of
16:41
Speaker 2: trying to create an umbrella where the whole community is
16:45
Speaker 2: looking after all the children. And that's part of our
16:48
Speaker 2: work that we do in schools is trying to create
16:50
Speaker 2: communities so that those who are on their own actually
16:54
Speaker 2: do have support.
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Speaker 1: If you'd like more of that converse, you can find
17:00
Speaker 1: it in the Bringing Up Boys Summit. It's available in
17:03
Speaker 1: the Happy Family's web shop. That's doctor Anna Rubinstein. Dr
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Speaker 1: Anna Rubinstein is from the Rights of Passage Institute. You
17:12
Speaker 1: can find him at Rights Offpassage Institute dot org. The
17:17
Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media.
17:20
Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you'd like more information,
17:24
Speaker 1: about making your family happier. You can find it all
17:26
Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot au, including the Bringing
17:29
Speaker 1: Up Boys Summit