Latest / Get Real with Jim Weiss / Dr. Lennard Lee, Chief Medical Officer at the Ellison Institute of Technology & Co-Founder of the NHS Cancer Vaccine Launchpad

Transcript

Dr. Lennard Lee, Chief Medical Officer at the Ellison Institute of Technology & Co-Founder of the NHS Cancer Vaccine Launchpad · Get Real with Jim Weiss

0:00
Speaker 1: The one good thing coming out of COVID perhaps is
0:02
Speaker 1: you know, did we actually really truly change the game
0:05
Speaker 1: in cancer, if not cure it in some cases?
0:08
Speaker 2: And that that's what this is about. Hey, everyone, it's
0:11
Speaker 2: time to get real with me yet again. Appreciate your
0:14
Speaker 2: being here for this.
0:15
Speaker 1: It's a really cool one, one that's close to my
0:18
Speaker 1: heart given my own personal recent experience. So I've got
0:21
Speaker 1: doctor Leonard Lee from the National Health Service. He's leading
0:25
Speaker 1: their cancer vaccine program. It's very exciting, very interesting. He's
0:30
Speaker 1: a really wonderful guy, a patient first kind of person
0:34
Speaker 1: you're going to see, you know, how warm and caring,
0:37
Speaker 1: yet obviously innovative and capable he is. He's really breaking
0:42
Speaker 1: ground in ways that I think will change the game
0:46
Speaker 1: in cancer vaccines.
0:48
Speaker 2: We're going to talk.
0:48
Speaker 1: Today a little bit about where they've been and where
0:51
Speaker 1: they're going and how this game's going to change. It's
0:54
Speaker 1: really one of the more exciting podcasts. I can't wait
0:57
Speaker 1: to get into it with you guys. I'd love to
1:01
Speaker 1: hear from you about the path that brought you into
1:05
Speaker 1: this work.
1:06
Speaker 3: It's all chance, Jim, to be honest, a little bit
1:09
Speaker 3: of good luck, but most of the chance and Simon oncologists.
1:12
Speaker 3: I treat a prossit cancer and in twenty twenty, the
1:16
Speaker 3: question that the world wanted to know was when everything's
1:19
Speaker 3: shutting down, the hospital closing, get everyone out of hospital,
1:22
Speaker 3: should you be giving cancer care? People didn't know at
1:25
Speaker 3: that stage. Half the doctor's shut shop and said the
1:28
Speaker 3: best thing you do send it on home, and they
1:30
Speaker 3: stopped all treatments, nothing, just send a people home, stay
1:33
Speaker 3: at home, keep yourself well. The other half kept going.
1:37
Speaker 3: I was kind of that half, because you were thinking
1:39
Speaker 3: that if you stop your cancer treatment is obvious the outcome.
1:43
Speaker 3: I decided to go this step further and form a
1:45
Speaker 3: data program to answer the question. Because you don't know,
1:48
Speaker 3: you just get the answer. So I pulled together UK
1:50
Speaker 3: COVID Cancer Project and we got all ninety hospitals UK
1:54
Speaker 3: to share data and we found out just within two
1:58
Speaker 3: or three months that it wasn't the case to care
2:00
Speaker 3: which is making people die from COVID. The cancer care
2:04
Speaker 3: could be given very safely. And so that got me
2:07
Speaker 3: into this sphere of bigger projects vaccine effective, nurse protecting populations.
2:13
Speaker 3: We then came to a world whereby I was asked
2:16
Speaker 3: to step up again and show a bit more leadership
2:19
Speaker 3: this time to try and see new technologies come through.
2:22
Speaker 3: Switch all that momentum which has been built up during COVID,
2:25
Speaker 3: move some of the Oxford infrastructures and capabilities and focus
2:29
Speaker 3: away from those working astogenica vaccines and trying to work
2:33
Speaker 3: out how much the community wanted to pioneer new technology
2:37
Speaker 3: spheres like vaccines against cancer because it was a bit
2:39
Speaker 3: of a non starter. And I've been championing that for
2:42
Speaker 3: three years and getting trials open, trying to get industry
2:45
Speaker 3: to focus in and get the benefit to people in
2:47
Speaker 3: the UK. Because technology is there, you just need to
2:51
Speaker 3: test it now. And so that's where I've come from.
2:53
Speaker 1: Okay, so well tell us obviously the only just came
2:58
Speaker 1: of vaccine line pad platform, right, that'll be to access
3:02
Speaker 1: to a tailored vaccine program and clinical trial. As this
3:06
Speaker 1: co founder, can you talk me through the commitment it
3:09
Speaker 1: took to get it off the ground.
3:11
Speaker 2: How did that come together?
3:12
Speaker 3: It's really exciting. I find it very exciting because we've
3:15
Speaker 3: lived through a period of time where what we believe
3:17
Speaker 3: should take ten years can be done in just a year.
3:20
Speaker 3: That's the truth. If people work together, you open your systems,
3:24
Speaker 3: you let people take passing trials. Discoveries can happen very
3:28
Speaker 3: very quickly. We saw so many things come through and
3:31
Speaker 3: so what we did in the UK was we just
3:33
Speaker 3: asked the question of our system. If a patient needs
3:35
Speaker 3: a vaccine anywhere in the country and they can get it,
3:38
Speaker 3: why it's the same not possible in the cancer patients,
3:41
Speaker 3: because if they want to be part of trials, why not.
3:44
Speaker 3: It shouldn't matter where you live. It shouldn't matter how
3:46
Speaker 3: much you earn, it should matter where the cancer is,
3:49
Speaker 3: it shouldn't matter what doctor is. It should be available
3:52
Speaker 3: across the country. And so all the docs in the
3:55
Speaker 3: country realize, actually this is really important. The greatest hospital
3:58
Speaker 3: or the greatest try this, and they altogether to form
4:01
Speaker 3: a launch pad, so we have much greater access. And
4:04
Speaker 3: on top of that we also got industry collaborations. We
4:07
Speaker 3: had that through earlier work by the governments, and so
4:10
Speaker 3: that was a launch pad trying to get ten thousand
4:12
Speaker 3: people through trials across many cancer types. And the most
4:16
Speaker 3: amazing thing happens when people come together. We serve technology
4:19
Speaker 3: which was very nascent now completing Phase three trials ending
4:24
Speaker 3: up with hundreds of thousand people getting benefit, which they'd
4:27
Speaker 3: never proveous you had before, so it's really nice. The
4:31
Speaker 3: investment went to technology, the technology moved into newsphere, and
4:36
Speaker 3: there is a potential bright sphere that may open up
4:38
Speaker 3: now for people can to to get better treatments which
4:41
Speaker 3: are safer, more effective and helps their immune system recognize
4:45
Speaker 3: the cancer rather than just giving your standard therapies which
4:48
Speaker 3: can be quite harsh.
4:50
Speaker 1: So are we off the ground and you've got patients
4:52
Speaker 1: and rolling we're on away? I mean, how many patients?
4:55
Speaker 1: Where are we right now? How far or how fast
4:58
Speaker 1: have you gone?
4:59
Speaker 3: All trials are globe but you only have three phases
5:01
Speaker 3: of clinical trials to prove a technology. Phase one to
5:04
Speaker 3: make sure it's safe. It looks like that cancer vaccines
5:06
Speaker 3: are very safe, as safest once the population of a
5:09
Speaker 3: siege during early years at MR and as phase two
5:13
Speaker 3: we need signals, and phase three the final bit where
5:15
Speaker 3: you know how effective it's going to be. The first
5:18
Speaker 3: product has finished a phase three trial and we're just
5:21
Speaker 3: wait to report. So it's really exciting times. And there's
5:23
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of them now in the phase two
5:25
Speaker 3: space which will soon be really out to next bit.
5:28
Speaker 3: So I do think this area is going to open up,
5:30
Speaker 3: and I do think that bright future of knowing how
5:32
Speaker 3: effective these treatments are it is going to be really interesting,
5:35
Speaker 3: and the safety is being monitored throughout, so we're going
5:38
Speaker 3: to see if there's any rare side effects, although the
5:41
Speaker 3: converse is probably less good where you don't have to therapies,
5:43
Speaker 3: but we're very close.
5:45
Speaker 1: We were talking about the comparison of the US and
5:48
Speaker 1: the UK in terms of vaccines for.
5:50
Speaker 2: Cancer and the development.
5:53
Speaker 1: Do you think you're leading away and possibly creating the
5:58
Speaker 1: sort of begon to live the example that everyone else
6:01
Speaker 1: can fower.
6:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really surprising, isn't it, Because we were a
6:04
Speaker 3: very little nation and all nations were tests and we
6:06
Speaker 3: brought through our Oxford astrosenica vaccine and we got that
6:10
Speaker 3: fires a by on type of job the first and
6:12
Speaker 3: it didn't say very much. It was just people coming together.
6:15
Speaker 3: I think we're really lucky because our country. Maybe maybe
6:19
Speaker 3: we're just more obedience, but maybe it should be more
6:21
Speaker 3: question like the Americans are, and think about the side effects.
6:24
Speaker 3: Because everything has the side effects. It's just about how
6:26
Speaker 3: rare it is and how the benefits outweigh the side effects.
6:30
Speaker 3: But our country wanted to try and go in again.
6:33
Speaker 3: We said we'll get a pandemic vaccine within year, and
6:37
Speaker 3: again we had these headlines which was that will make
6:39
Speaker 3: a counter vaccine advance and get ten thousand people through,
6:43
Speaker 3: and so it has happened. I do think America's fantastic too.
6:46
Speaker 3: You are getting your trials up and running, although when
6:48
Speaker 3: you look at the stats and we are ahead of
6:50
Speaker 3: you by a little bit, like we are recruited really
6:51
Speaker 3: well in this country, Our greater centers are greater trials
6:54
Speaker 3: are recruiting really well and waiting for our American colleagues
6:58
Speaker 3: to just come on that journey with us of discovery
7:01
Speaker 3: because research is global. But we sit in the situation
7:04
Speaker 3: today where trials are recruiting and closing one year ahead
7:08
Speaker 3: of schedule, and the UK is often in that pole
7:12
Speaker 3: position in terms of recruitment country and number of people
7:15
Speaker 3: through trials, which is again it's as surprising. And we
7:18
Speaker 3: do think one day in the American censors war to
7:20
Speaker 3: start to activate to and bring more people through so
7:23
Speaker 3: discoveries can happen much quicker.
7:25
Speaker 1: What do you think explains that? What lessons can we
7:28
Speaker 1: learn about what and how you're conducting is.
7:33
Speaker 3: I think the one thing I would say is that
7:36
Speaker 3: we just need to get patients first. Cancers coming up everywhere,
7:43
Speaker 3: all parts of the country like it's something that affects
7:46
Speaker 3: us all, and actually where there's a will, there is
7:49
Speaker 3: a way.
7:50
Speaker 2: We've seen what it is.
7:52
Speaker 3: To be under huge pressure against disease which affects us
7:56
Speaker 3: all and actually came out stronger that we realize we
7:59
Speaker 3: can make discovery is you can approve quicker. You can
8:01
Speaker 3: get the leading technologies companies across the world into these hospitals.
8:06
Speaker 3: If you put the patient first, if you approve quickly,
8:09
Speaker 3: it can happen. And that's the effect to what's happening
8:11
Speaker 3: now in the cancisphere in the UK. We would like
8:14
Speaker 3: to believe that when someone's worried, when their family's being affected,
8:20
Speaker 3: they can be reassured that they can be part of
8:22
Speaker 3: research the late technology. You can fly onto our shores
8:25
Speaker 3: the matter, whereas German technology, American technology. It can all happen.
8:30
Speaker 3: And that's what's most fating everyone at the moment, the
8:33
Speaker 3: ambition to see change, the confidence, and that's what's the
8:37
Speaker 3: beacon actually focusing on people first and whatever farm wants
8:41
Speaker 3: to do, whatever house want to do, some to put
8:43
Speaker 3: the patient first, then you can't go wrong.
8:46
Speaker 2: Well that makes sense.
8:47
Speaker 1: Let's talk about, you know, how they're getting conducted and
8:50
Speaker 1: designed the risk benefit analysis of shifting through a vaccine
8:55
Speaker 1: forest treatment. Because in my experience with my wife, as
8:58
Speaker 1: we've talked about, and that was coming a little bit
9:01
Speaker 1: later in the cascade, we were trying the chemo and
9:05
Speaker 1: you know, looking into the targeted therapies, and she wasn't
9:09
Speaker 1: really a candidate given her type of cancer for immunotherapy.
9:13
Speaker 2: Didn't seem like it would be.
9:15
Speaker 1: Worth that high risk of side effect and all the
9:19
Speaker 1: rest that comes with newer drugs. But what do you
9:22
Speaker 1: predict as risks that might blockade the vast benefits of
9:27
Speaker 1: starting with a vaccine. So a patient's diagnosed and we
9:32
Speaker 1: can sequence their tumor and we can create this very
9:35
Speaker 1: specialized and targeted therapy. I always wonder if we should
9:40
Speaker 1: call it a vaccine or a therapy. You can weigh
9:42
Speaker 1: in on that. If technically it's a vaccine. I think
9:45
Speaker 1: it is technically, but I don't know you can start there,
9:49
Speaker 1: But in general, is this the place we should be
9:52
Speaker 1: starting versus what I call the hail.
9:55
Speaker 3: Mary ending imaged very sorry about order. She's person and
10:01
Speaker 3: thank you for so much for sharing your story, because
10:02
Speaker 3: you inspire us all by her story and your cancer
10:07
Speaker 3: care has to be safer, more effective, and better given
10:11
Speaker 3: because at the moment that therapy can be quite tough.
10:15
Speaker 3: You're right, we need to think about how to make
10:18
Speaker 3: safer treatments more effective. Anything that can help you recognize
10:23
Speaker 3: the cancer your immune system can be one of those options.
10:26
Speaker 3: We already know that one in two people never get
10:29
Speaker 3: cancer in their lives. I can't work out why is
10:32
Speaker 3: that just because they're lucky, or is it because they've
10:34
Speaker 3: got better immunity. If it is around immunity, then why
10:38
Speaker 3: should we not be stimulating people to recognize cancer. I
10:41
Speaker 3: know there's a lot of strong views about vaccines, but
10:44
Speaker 3: you're probably right. They kind have more of a treatment,
10:45
Speaker 3: aren't they.
10:47
Speaker 2: It seems like it to me. Yeah, it's not really
10:49
Speaker 2: a vaccine. Se not really a vaccine. You cut the
10:53
Speaker 2: cancer out.
10:54
Speaker 3: You've got to pick up cancer much earlier so you
10:56
Speaker 3: can cut it out and then, rather than worrying every
10:59
Speaker 3: single year that is going to come back because that's
11:01
Speaker 3: an inevitability, you just activate the immune system and they
11:05
Speaker 3: can patrol gainta cancer for years. We're seeing studies now
11:08
Speaker 3: that when you activate the immune system it can last
11:10
Speaker 3: many years. We hope that's going to move into survival
11:13
Speaker 3: because there's got to be a scenario whereby we'd pick
11:16
Speaker 3: up cancer earlier before it discovers you, before it causes pain,
11:20
Speaker 3: before it cause bleeding, before it causes lumps. These could
11:23
Speaker 3: be blood tests, and then we treat people earlier, like
11:27
Speaker 3: we'd safer treatments and something that stops it coming back,
11:30
Speaker 3: something that just helps the immune system recognize that cancer.
11:33
Speaker 3: It's just got to unmask it. That future is now
11:36
Speaker 3: within reach. Now we've been given this technology gift, something
11:39
Speaker 3: that we can update, we can prime the immune system,
11:42
Speaker 3: and it's just our time tonight.
11:43
Speaker 2: Try it.
11:44
Speaker 3: Just give it a go again, try and make these
11:46
Speaker 3: benefits so it's safer and more effective and just easier
11:49
Speaker 3: to give.
11:50
Speaker 1: My understanding when we were researching and all that the
11:53
Speaker 1: side effects are similar to when you go.
11:56
Speaker 2: Get a flu shot.
11:57
Speaker 1: You know, it's not what we've seen with other you know,
12:00
Speaker 1: we've heard a lot of stories about cell therapies and
12:03
Speaker 1: gene therapies and other next generation targeted therapies. They seem
12:09
Speaker 1: to come with side effects similar to those seen maybe
12:14
Speaker 1: with chemo. Now we've learned to use chemo really well
12:17
Speaker 1: and it's better and better and better in the way
12:19
Speaker 1: it's given. But obviously those are the standards of care,
12:24
Speaker 1: and you know, we still haven't really graduated to these
12:28
Speaker 1: what are general They sound benign the side effects? Is
12:31
Speaker 1: that too good to be true for cancer vaccines?
12:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jimmy writ I mean the therapies that we've got
12:38
Speaker 3: are effectively poisons. They're chemo, just poisons to cancer. And
12:42
Speaker 3: you hope that people will say, can we cover from that?
12:45
Speaker 3: And it's really they're getting better, but I can't say
12:48
Speaker 3: it's easy. We've had a new therapies come through, but
12:53
Speaker 3: you're right, what we seen.
12:54
Speaker 2: From the early studies that is a shot.
12:56
Speaker 3: It's a shot. All they're doing is just updating a
12:58
Speaker 3: little bit in the middle the instructions of what the
13:00
Speaker 3: immune system should recognize. That no longer is it recognizing
13:04
Speaker 3: some infect diseases. It can help you unmass that cancer.
13:08
Speaker 3: So what do we get. We've got a bit of
13:10
Speaker 3: a sore arm, maybe a bit of shivers, not feeling
13:13
Speaker 3: quite right for day, and maybe a few days later
13:15
Speaker 3: we got back to normal. That was what most people got.
13:19
Speaker 3: And we're also seeing that sort of the same sort
13:20
Speaker 3: of situation from the safety studies from cancer patients too,
13:25
Speaker 3: And then I think it's important to say that obviously
13:27
Speaker 3: we cancer, you're a bit more delicate, maybe immune system
13:30
Speaker 3: not quite so strong, and if that monitoring might take
13:33
Speaker 3: a bit longer, but it is a shot, so a
13:36
Speaker 3: sore arm, bits of fluy as your immune system is activated,
13:41
Speaker 3: and then monitor very very different for chemo. If the
13:44
Speaker 3: future moves into this sphere, then that could really be
13:47
Speaker 3: a much better way to treat people.
13:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's hard to believe it can work
13:50
Speaker 1: with the soubninn right. We have this mindset that it
13:54
Speaker 1: has to do other harm and damage to really I mean,
13:58
Speaker 1: you listen to the summer the side effects people get
14:01
Speaker 1: hung up with or as it passable, they could be
14:03
Speaker 1: that effective.
14:04
Speaker 2: Can we expect them to be.
14:05
Speaker 1: That effective even though they sound benign from a slide
14:08
Speaker 1: effect perspective.
14:10
Speaker 3: My patients come to me and they want to They
14:11
Speaker 3: want the strongest chemotherapy. They believe that the stronger I could,
14:15
Speaker 3: the more side effects to get. The better it is.
14:17
Speaker 3: It's not true.
14:19
Speaker 2: We want people to feel well.
14:20
Speaker 3: It's okay to feel well with cancer and It's also
14:23
Speaker 3: okay that your immune system is patrolling against the cancer.
14:26
Speaker 3: That's fine, So I would say that it's right. We've
14:30
Speaker 3: got to get safer treatments with less side effects. And
14:33
Speaker 3: actually we know that the immune system is very strong.
14:36
Speaker 3: People can fight off a cold and not feel that
14:38
Speaker 3: unwell with it, So why not. Why can't one day
14:40
Speaker 3: people have an immune system that can hold against the
14:43
Speaker 3: cancer too, stop it coming back. That'd be wonderful. So
14:47
Speaker 3: this is all needs to be tested. We're waiting the
14:49
Speaker 3: results of the first phase three Steady. We're going to
14:52
Speaker 3: know shortly. And if we do moon the sphere where
14:55
Speaker 3: shots can treat cancer, I think that's probably a good thing, actually,
14:58
Speaker 3: because it could be much much better in terms of
15:01
Speaker 3: side effect profiles than anything we've had before.
15:04
Speaker 1: Phase three is in melanoma, right, yeah, And the other
15:08
Speaker 1: phase twos and others you're talking about are work mouth
15:11
Speaker 1: neck were tell us the rationale for the design and
15:16
Speaker 1: how that treatment goes, and how this may go in
15:19
Speaker 1: the future, and why melanoma I'm really curious.
15:22
Speaker 3: The one to look out for, the one that you
15:24
Speaker 3: mentioned which is now waiting result, is a drug called
15:26
Speaker 3: V nine forty. It sounds very scientific and it treats
15:30
Speaker 3: skin cancer, a type of skin cancer called melanoma. That's
15:33
Speaker 3: one your immune system can recognize and says, looking hopefully
15:37
Speaker 3: quite good systimated immune system. But the issue with that
15:40
Speaker 3: you get a lot of autoimmune side effects and because
15:43
Speaker 3: you've read the immune system to overdrive. But for some
15:46
Speaker 3: people it really helps them. Some people get long term
15:48
Speaker 3: survival from cancer if you activate the immune system and
15:51
Speaker 3: revy into overdrive. They're now taking the next step, Jim,
15:54
Speaker 3: as you say, correctly, Okay, now we activate immune system,
15:57
Speaker 3: but we now tell it where to go. We given
16:00
Speaker 3: the instruction manual. It's like telling a stiff a dog
16:03
Speaker 3: go for this, and they go for it. Not only
16:06
Speaker 3: you've got the dog ready, but you've also you've fed
16:09
Speaker 3: the dog, you've warmed it up, you took over walk
16:11
Speaker 3: and you tell it exactly where to go, and it
16:12
Speaker 3: would just go running out of there happily go for
16:15
Speaker 3: the canter. So that's a combination approach at the moment.
16:18
Speaker 3: It's really interesting. The combination approach could be stronger than
16:21
Speaker 3: just giving mr and a treatment alone. And that's all
16:25
Speaker 3: now been tested in the phase two studies. That's bout
16:27
Speaker 3: and pancreatic and lungs. It's going to be interesting the
16:30
Speaker 3: next few years.
16:31
Speaker 1: So what makes mRNA tech particularly suitable for this? I
16:36
Speaker 1: know there's an antigen. I mean, there's other approaches, So
16:40
Speaker 1: maybe you can quick contrast us to what other counter
16:43
Speaker 1: vaccine programs are out there. I think bioantech and Maderna
16:48
Speaker 1: and America and astrosanaka there are mRNA right, So.
16:53
Speaker 3: Probably three reasons in this technology. The first one is acceptability.
16:59
Speaker 3: Every an't around the world got these and we all
17:02
Speaker 3: know what the side effect profile is, so we know
17:05
Speaker 3: what shot is. Everyone gets it, had it, so we
17:08
Speaker 3: expect that as a formal treatment now, so doctors are
17:11
Speaker 3: ready to give it, patient's ready to give it, or
17:13
Speaker 3: its all been sorted. The second bit is around manufacturing.
17:17
Speaker 3: They're much easier to make than other types of drugs
17:20
Speaker 3: like cell therapy or gene therapy. And the reason why
17:23
Speaker 3: they're easy to make is because the whole world pumped
17:26
Speaker 3: this research area, this tech field with investment to make
17:30
Speaker 3: it even easier faster, and we've gone through two to
17:33
Speaker 3: three years of rapid technology development, so it's now a
17:36
Speaker 3: stable technology, which is great. And the third bit is
17:40
Speaker 3: it's potentially a lot cheaper. We know that shots can
17:43
Speaker 3: be made much much cheaper than before, so the technology
17:46
Speaker 3: nicety has become cheaper, and there all other types of
17:49
Speaker 3: therapies that could be made. So it's around acceptability. Everyone
17:54
Speaker 3: knows what it's like to get the ability to manufacture.
17:56
Speaker 3: Because we pump around the system, it is now ready
17:58
Speaker 3: to go and so a technology come which is better
18:02
Speaker 3: than one before, cheaper to make, which is nice.
18:05
Speaker 2: So that could.
18:05
Speaker 3: Really be good things for people who are facing cancer
18:09
Speaker 3: dionists at the moment or have families who've been affected
18:12
Speaker 3: or been affected by it.
18:13
Speaker 1: So putting you on the spot a little, what cancers
18:16
Speaker 1: are going to respond best, diosumis the ones that have
18:19
Speaker 1: responded us to pewd ones, no crystal ball.
18:23
Speaker 3: But I think you're right, Jim. If your immune system
18:25
Speaker 3: can recognize your cancer from the existing first generation immune therapies,
18:29
Speaker 3: then the chances are the vaccines will probably also work.
18:33
Speaker 3: Although I would also say, look at the pancreatic cancer
18:37
Speaker 3: study from BioNTech. That's a cancer which should not respond
18:40
Speaker 3: to muna therapy. But you're getting good vaccine responses with
18:43
Speaker 3: the last many years, So it makes me think that
18:46
Speaker 3: actually maybe a bit of hope that actually, if you're
18:49
Speaker 3: truly personalizing a therapy to a patient because your primary
18:53
Speaker 3: immune system against their abnormalities which is seen in their cancer,
18:58
Speaker 3: you Sequence of County made the shot for them. Maybe
19:01
Speaker 3: you're getting immune responses that you wouldn't at NeSSI thought.
19:04
Speaker 3: And that's what's going to come out of the next
19:06
Speaker 3: few years. And that's really exciting times because there's only
19:09
Speaker 3: less than five years of the pandemic at the moment
19:11
Speaker 3: where these new technology comes through. But it's exciting times.
19:14
Speaker 1: The vaccine concept is a one and done shot. I
19:18
Speaker 1: know this isn't the way it really happens, right, You
19:20
Speaker 1: keep giving it sporadically over time. So again this name
19:25
Speaker 1: vaccine versus therapy, which it feels like it's more of
19:28
Speaker 1: a therapy to me. It might actually help the image
19:32
Speaker 1: of the development of them as well. You know that
19:35
Speaker 1: they're really therapy is not vaccines, because isn't it multiple
19:39
Speaker 1: shots that people get.
19:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, Jim, it's an mr Anda therapy. It
19:44
Speaker 3: may be given like a vaccine, but you're rights to
19:48
Speaker 3: activate the immune response over time, keep it responding to
19:51
Speaker 3: get that cancer in check. And that's how it's been given,
19:54
Speaker 3: and it's normally given after surgery to try and stop
19:57
Speaker 3: that cancer returning.
19:59
Speaker 2: Right.
20:00
Speaker 3: Is not as such and not grabbing people and forcing
20:02
Speaker 3: people get things. It's not like that at all. People
20:04
Speaker 3: actually want to be given the opportunity to try something
20:06
Speaker 3: to help their immune system patrol against that cancer coming back.
20:10
Speaker 1: Right, because it's initially for this concept of preventing recurrence,
20:14
Speaker 1: which is what the big.
20:15
Speaker 2: Problem is in the long run.
20:17
Speaker 1: But is it something that people You know, my wife's
20:21
Speaker 1: cancer was pretty inoperable. Do we think it can impact
20:25
Speaker 1: that population to at some point?
20:28
Speaker 3: I don't know the answer to this one actually, because Jim,
20:30
Speaker 3: you're right, many people are dynasted later at the moment
20:33
Speaker 3: and not for any far to their own just bad luck.
20:36
Speaker 3: We don't have to test to pick up cancer earlier.
20:38
Speaker 3: We should be getting the blood test. We should be
20:40
Speaker 3: accelerating that too, so you can pick up from blood
20:43
Speaker 3: work people have got cancer. But I do wonder in
20:46
Speaker 3: back my head, if it's proven this situation, if you
20:49
Speaker 3: can activate the immune response to recognize someone's cancer, what's
20:53
Speaker 3: stopping it now at a later stage? Should we not
20:56
Speaker 3: be geting trials there? And I think the natural course
20:59
Speaker 3: will be once you proven in one setting and movingto
21:02
Speaker 3: other settings, possibly in combinations with other things to make
21:05
Speaker 3: it stronger and maybe needs stronger. Mean a therapyece. But
21:08
Speaker 3: that's that bright potential here. If you can stop a
21:11
Speaker 3: cancer coming back, would you set a chance? Why can't
21:14
Speaker 3: you now stop a cancer that's establish or spread? Trials
21:17
Speaker 3: will tell so how.
21:18
Speaker 2: Much money do we need to fund all this?
21:21
Speaker 1: I mean the National Health Services putting their money where
21:24
Speaker 1: their mouth is here. I know the US You know
21:26
Speaker 1: Donald Trump announced a program with Larry Ellison which was
21:31
Speaker 1: to the tune and a half a billion dollars leveraging AI.
21:35
Speaker 1: How much money and how much will AI and new
21:37
Speaker 1: technology help? Is it already helping give us a little
21:41
Speaker 1: perspective into the future? And how much do we do
21:46
Speaker 1: companies in the public need to invest?
21:48
Speaker 2: Here?
21:49
Speaker 3: We live in the most amazing times, don't we? AI
21:52
Speaker 3: making discovery before humans can even see the patterns genomics
21:56
Speaker 3: where you can sequence the cauncer and know exactly what's
21:59
Speaker 3: causing it, and MR and A where you can protect
22:03
Speaker 3: a population very quick with easy manufacturing. AI, genomics and
22:07
Speaker 3: miris all now coming together. You ask me how much
22:09
Speaker 3: it costs? Well, actually, counter drugs already are expensive. We
22:15
Speaker 3: the public pay for it through our insurance premiums. That
22:18
Speaker 3: market already exists, so the drugs are there, they're paid
22:21
Speaker 3: for already. We already know how to help drugs. So
22:24
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that much additional money is required because
22:27
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, we pay for it
22:28
Speaker 3: through our premiums and we pay through our healthcare service,
22:31
Speaker 3: and you just maybe need a little bit of leadership.
22:34
Speaker 3: Leadership is effectively saying this is where we get to,
22:36
Speaker 3: and that's where America has been absolutely wonderful making those
22:39
Speaker 3: sources of statements. But you're talking there about making major
22:42
Speaker 3: push using AI and that stargate.
22:44
Speaker 2: That's amazing. So let's be predictive. What's it all means.
22:47
Speaker 1: Assuming the tech works, then it seems like it's going
22:51
Speaker 1: to at some point it'll get perfected. When do you
22:54
Speaker 1: think we'll have a widely available number of these therapies?
23:00
Speaker 1: Are we five years away from that? Are we ten years?
23:05
Speaker 1: You kind of give us a stance. It sounds like
23:07
Speaker 1: we're closed closer than maybe some people realize.
23:11
Speaker 3: I think we are closer than people realize. Actually, Jim,
23:14
Speaker 3: you're quite right, because the reality is that the phase
23:18
Speaker 3: three has completed. As soon as that completes, as long
23:21
Speaker 3: as the best cancer center is open with the best
23:24
Speaker 3: trial list, all focus on our patient benefit just pretty
23:27
Speaker 3: quickly at that stage, and you can see a whole
23:30
Speaker 3: new opportunity, a brighter rise, and a safer, more effective,
23:34
Speaker 3: easier treatment to be given. That's a win win for
23:37
Speaker 3: healthcare systems. And actually that is the legacy of everything
23:40
Speaker 3: we've gone through, or that investment or the hardship that
23:43
Speaker 3: we've gone through showed us that our systems for making
23:46
Speaker 3: discoveries can be wonderful, and they can happen quickly, and
23:51
Speaker 3: it can happen fast, and people can benefit and lives
23:54
Speaker 3: can be changed. So I think you're not looking at
23:56
Speaker 3: ten years. I think you're looking much shorter.
23:58
Speaker 2: Well.
23:58
Speaker 1: That im our therapy revolution and took from my experience
24:01
Speaker 1: having launched Kytruda and being involved in the early days
24:04
Speaker 1: about devote. I mean, I remember working on one of
24:07
Speaker 1: the first immunote therapies for prostate cancer that you're well
24:10
Speaker 1: aware of, Provenge, you know, which was a dundary on
24:13
Speaker 1: product and that had ups and downs, but is obviously
24:18
Speaker 1: helped patients. So we we did have some positive experience
24:22
Speaker 1: there Right in the beginning, they were calling that a vaccine.
24:26
Speaker 1: We were saying it's not, it's a therapy. But it
24:29
Speaker 1: was hard to make. It sounds like we've obviously come
24:33
Speaker 1: much further. It's not as hard to make, and COVID
24:35
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of benefits. But maybe this is
24:38
Speaker 1: the one that we're all going to look back and say,
24:42
Speaker 1: thank God for covid because it helped us cure cancer.
24:46
Speaker 2: Is that Are we going to say that? Yeah?
24:48
Speaker 3: Who thought anyone will be saying that about those phrases?
24:51
Speaker 3: Right by, Jim, and thank for everything you did in
24:54
Speaker 3: terms of developing drugs I could treat it because people
24:56
Speaker 3: living like beyond five years and some into ten years
25:00
Speaker 3: because that drug, if you activate someone's immune system, the
25:03
Speaker 3: memory lasts for a long time. So that's the exciting
25:07
Speaker 3: potential I shouldn't develop.
25:08
Speaker 1: But you know, Jim Houson and all the other guy
25:11
Speaker 1: and then all the people at Murk and at Bristol
25:13
Speaker 1: Meyers Squibb did all that hard work. I know Analisa Jenkins,
25:17
Speaker 1: who you know, friend of mutual friend of ours, was
25:20
Speaker 1: involved in those early years. So lots of people to
25:23
Speaker 1: thank for that. But I would say, now the next
25:27
Speaker 1: generation's coming. Many of those folks are involved in that
25:30
Speaker 1: revolution and evolution. How has this collaboration between big pharma
25:37
Speaker 1: and small biotech startups and government it's kind of working.
25:41
Speaker 1: I mean, is it something we should be doing more?
25:44
Speaker 1: This public private partnership.
25:46
Speaker 3: Absolutely, the greatest solutions don't come from one entity, do they.
25:51
Speaker 3: The greatest ideas we change the world come from all
25:54
Speaker 3: of this and the movement that supports it then allows
25:57
Speaker 3: it to change the world. When people work together, things happen.
26:01
Speaker 3: So when hospitals work, we doctors, what we patients, what's governments?
26:05
Speaker 3: You can really change it, change the narrative of how
26:08
Speaker 3: things could be a much much brighter future. And it
26:12
Speaker 3: doesn't take much, does it. It's just people willing to
26:14
Speaker 3: be brave to try again. We've seen bravery people. We
26:18
Speaker 3: can tell brave the bravest. Yeah, they want to go
26:22
Speaker 3: and change the world for them. And actually it's very
26:25
Speaker 3: possible now that all these technologies fears are coming together, AI, genomics,
26:30
Speaker 3: MR and A and new technologies has been been throughouted now,
26:33
Speaker 3: so it's it is a good time, a good time
26:35
Speaker 3: to be oncologists.
26:36
Speaker 1: So something we experienced ourselves is one we always would
26:40
Speaker 1: ask our oncologists what stage are we at, because that's
26:43
Speaker 1: a common thing to say. But I think we're going
26:46
Speaker 1: to see staging and classification kind of blow up in
26:49
Speaker 1: the era of these new therapies because we were told us,
26:53
Speaker 1: look if the if the treatment works, doesn't matter what
26:56
Speaker 1: stage you're at. It really doesn't matter all that much.
26:59
Speaker 1: If we have these kinds of treatment, it's almost like
27:02
Speaker 1: you either respond and you have success or you don't.
27:06
Speaker 2: So are we going to see all that change as well?
27:10
Speaker 3: That's a really good point actually, and I hadn't thought that,
27:12
Speaker 3: but just shows your inside of your seeing what's happening,
27:16
Speaker 3: because you're right. When we started medicine, we got told
27:20
Speaker 3: that stage four cancer has gone across the body, your lungs,
27:24
Speaker 3: your liver, that is not going to use and people
27:27
Speaker 3: have got mumps at that stage. But look what some
27:30
Speaker 3: of the early immune therapy drugs did. The intruders out
27:34
Speaker 3: there some people when you activate immune system. I saw this,
27:38
Speaker 3: the cancer melted away. I just couldn't believe that. When
27:42
Speaker 3: the drugs came through it as a magical moment. It's
27:43
Speaker 3: so rare, so rare, but happens. Every doctor's seen it.
27:49
Speaker 3: The cancer disappearing, and maybe one day that might happen
27:52
Speaker 3: more often than not because we've cracked immunity. We've now
27:56
Speaker 3: used AI genomics and our MR and A to crack
27:58
Speaker 3: immunity and make sure that we can recognize cancer again
28:01
Speaker 3: and just unveil it. That will be lovely in which
28:04
Speaker 3: if that happens to gim You're right, then what a
28:06
Speaker 3: staging matter? The most important then thing becomes you know,
28:09
Speaker 3: I mean response agates a cancer, not the stage y'very excited.
28:13
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's it's sort of mind blowing what's happening, right,
28:16
Speaker 1: And I think based.
28:18
Speaker 2: On the data you all produce, as.
28:20
Speaker 1: The programs advanced here in the US and in other
28:24
Speaker 1: parts of the world that are beginning to focus on it,
28:26
Speaker 1: and here we are, in a relatively short time post
28:30
Speaker 1: a crazy global pandemic, that we really are on the
28:34
Speaker 1: cusp of hope like we never had before. Yet in
28:38
Speaker 1: my own personal experience, we couldn't quite get there, and
28:41
Speaker 1: many others it's not just mine, we're not.
28:44
Speaker 2: I don't want to want to be careful.
28:46
Speaker 1: It's not the cure, but it's advancement, you know, a
28:50
Speaker 1: giant leap or whatever they said, you know, for mankind.
28:53
Speaker 1: I think we're about to make that and that's exciting
28:57
Speaker 1: and thank you for.
28:58
Speaker 2: What you're doing.
28:59
Speaker 1: So I always want to ask my guests the guilty
29:03
Speaker 1: pleasure questions, like the personal questions that make us understand
29:07
Speaker 1: what makes you tip personally.
29:09
Speaker 2: So we're gonna.
29:10
Speaker 1: Veer out of that last bit of the discussion that
29:13
Speaker 1: was so fun and exciting to just asking you what's
29:17
Speaker 1: your guilty pleasure? And also if you were stranded on
29:21
Speaker 1: a desert island, what album.
29:22
Speaker 2: Would you take?
29:26
Speaker 3: I think for me, it is the sporting challenge. I
29:30
Speaker 3: swim acrossing a channel, I swam around Manhattan. I've done ultramarathon,
29:35
Speaker 3: so I want to try and get to the one
29:36
Speaker 3: hundred klometer run. I've got a few injuries, but my
29:39
Speaker 3: hope is I can get to that one hundred klumbs
29:41
Speaker 3: run one day so that we.
29:44
Speaker 2: Don't have to feel guilty about that. That doesn't sound
29:47
Speaker 2: like anything you'd feel guilty about.
29:49
Speaker 3: Damages your joints, I think, But I mean, you've got
29:51
Speaker 3: to be wide a little bit odd, You've got to
29:53
Speaker 3: keep going when you've got a lot of pain.
29:55
Speaker 2: But that's nice to get to the end.
29:57
Speaker 3: Of it, and what album are you going to take
29:59
Speaker 3: to the Desert Island something that probably tells my age.
30:04
Speaker 3: Bits of Sweet Symphony by the Verve, my first CD.
30:07
Speaker 1: It reveals so much about people. Mine would be something grateful,
30:11
Speaker 1: dead related, but I always tell that at the end
30:13
Speaker 1: of all these So Hey doctor Leonard Leey, everybody, thanks
30:18
Speaker 1: so much for being here with us. It's been great
30:20
Speaker 1: getting to know you. I really look forward to working
30:23
Speaker 1: with you more, getting the story out as this evolves,
30:27
Speaker 1: helping more patients learn about it, participate gain the benefits.
30:33
Speaker 1: To say, it's going to have a big impact as.
30:35
Speaker 2: An understatement, So thanks for all you're doing.
30:38
Speaker 3: And Jim, thank you so much for doing this podcast.
30:41
Speaker 3: You've worked so hard on it, giving people hope that
30:43
Speaker 3: actually we'd research, everything gets better and we will think
30:48
Speaker 3: about you and for all the great things you have
30:50
Speaker 3: to continue to do.
30:51
Speaker 2: So thank you, Jim.
30:52
Speaker 1: Thanks, Hey everyone, Thanks for joining me on the Get
30:57
Speaker 1: Real podcast. You know, I hope you feel a little
30:59
Speaker 1: healthy you're hanging out with me. It's gonna be a
31:02
Speaker 1: lot of fun passing this along to others.
31:04
Speaker 2: Please subscribe below, please share.
31:07
Speaker 1: I'm excited not just to talk about healthcare, but a
31:11
Speaker 1: lot of other fun topics. It's about making healthy talk
31:15
Speaker 1: about healthcare.
31:16
Speaker 2: It's not a lecture.
31:18
Speaker 1: This is supposed to be fun and look forward to
31:20
Speaker 1: spending more time with you in the future.