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How Qudsiya Naqui Found Freedom on the Subway · nondriver

• speaker-0: It gives you this sense of belonging. All these kids, they all are learning Braille from young ages. They have this camaraderie. I'm like, I wish I had that as a young person. I wish I had gone to the National Braille Challenge and met all these cool people and had friends. It's it it makes you feel like you belong to some somewhere, you know. speaker-1: Okay. Welcome to non driver. speaker-2: Real stories from people navigating a world who can't drive. speaker-1: Is he right? speaker-2: And I'm Devin Silvernail. speaker-1: And today we're joined by Kitsia Naki, who is an assistant professor of law at the University of the District of Columbia, David A. Clark School of Law, and the creator and host of Down to the Struts, which is an awesome podcast about disability design and intersectionality. Kitsia lives in Washington, DC, but grew up, like many non-drivers, lacking mobility autonomy in suburban New Jersey. and found that mobility freedom after moving to areas of better access to public transportation. Welcome and thank you so much for joining us today. speaker-0: Thank you for having me. speaker-1: So to start, tell a little bit about, you know, where you grew up in South Brunswick, what was it like growing up as a non driver there, and what was your sort of experience of transportation as a teenager and as you sort of wanted to gain more independence? speaker-0: Yeah, so as you mentioned, I grew up in South Brunswick, New Jersey, which is a small sort of township in central New Jersey. There wasn't a whole lot of public transportation there in terms of getting from place to place and town to town in the immediate surrounding area. It's a very suburban area, it's very car centric. It is unique in terms of if you compare to other Parts of the country in the sense that it is in that kind of Northeast corridor. And so I grew up an hour, about an hour sort of halfway between New York City and Philadelphia. So Philadelphia was an hour to our south, and then New York City was an hour to our north. And so because of that, and because of the number of people who commute to those two cities from where I live or where I grew up. We did have access to commuter trains. So we had the New York New Jersey transit train, which could take you to New York City and points in between in New Jersey. And then we had a connection. We had connections to Amtrak and then connections to Philadelphia via Trenton and via the SEPTA, which is the commuter train for the Philadelphia region. So we did have those things, but as a young child and a you know, young teenager, I didn't typically have access or have need for those that type of transportation. It didn't really help me to get from place to place in my local town. and when I was growing up, I went to a private high school that was kind of in the opposite direction of where my parents worked. Again, we we didn't have ac a lot of access to a private busing system, so they had to drive me to school often. A couple of years we did have a private bus, but it was really hard to access that. So they had to drive me to school, which was like in the wrong direction for them. And then when I was in high school, most of my classmates began to get their permits and their driver's licenses. And so they could meet up after school, go to events, drive themselves to and from practices and things like that. And I did have a little bit of that access. I had an older sister, so up until she graduated from high school when she was a junior and senior, and I was in middle school, she would help out and drive me places. But then after that, I was kind of at the mercy of my parents' schedule. And I often was unable to hang out with friends or socialize or participate in school activities because my parents were both working parents and were not able to drive me. And they they did their very best. They had people helping out, family members would pitch in. Some of their staff in their office would help chauffeur me from place to place. but it was really, really hard for me to gain any sort of social footing because of the fact that I couldn't drive. So that's kind of where I was at up until I went to college. speaker-1: And then what was that that transition like going into to college? Like where where did you go to college? What was that experience of sort of gaining that that freedom, the move? speaker-0: I went to college to Barnard College, which is the women's college that's part of Columbia University in New York City. And when I, you know, at the summer before I began college, we recognized that we faced the reality that I was going to leave the family home as an individual with low vision and live in New York City basically on my own for the first time in my life. So I was able to connect with. Some mobility instruction in New York. And that was the first time I experienced riding the subway. And it felt really daunting at first, but I had some really good mobility instruction. And within a couple of months of starting college, I was really well versed in riding the subway. And also at that time, I visioned, I have a degenerative condition. So back then I could still, you know, read some of the signage in the subway. And I, you know, I was I was actually not yet using a cane. I was kind of muddling by without one, which I did for a long time, longer than I should have probably. But it was it was incredible. I could I could go from point A to point B in the city on my own. I had many adventures. I really en I I discovered that I really enjoyed just going off completely by myself, even without friends and just wandering around new neighborhoods and getting to know them and visiting with people and it just it just completely transformed my my ability to explore the world around me. speaker-2: Like a big difference. I mean, it's so interesting to hear like you grew up in a place that was so connected to other places, yet you couldn't really get around your own community. And then once you got to New York, you really had that opportunity to experience more of the city that you live in, kind of for the first time in your life. and you had mentioned, you know, taking the subway and you'd even said before we started recording about you had talked about Your love for the New York City subway, even with its imperfections. can you talk a little bit about that actually? Because, you know, we're both I mean, Anna's lived in New York, but you know, we're from the West Coast and everything about transit on the West Coast is pretty imperfect. And I'm curious to hear about what that relationship is like for someone who is living in New York and how that affected That kind of adventure you went on as soon as you got there. speaker-0: Yeah. So I've lived in three East Coast cities at this point: New York, DC, and Philadelphia, and which is where Philadelphia is where I went to law school. And I think by far there they all have their merits and drawbacks. I think the thing that was so stri is is so striking about New York as compared to those other two East Coast cities that I've lived in is the vastness of the subway system, the extensiveness of it, the fact that you couldn't get anywhere within the five boroughs. Staten Island on a boat, but you know, there's still a connecting point. you can get anywhere. and it it's just it's so vast. It's 247. it's it it reaches into all sorts of areas. Like for example, Philadelphia. There's really two train lines inside of Philadelphia. the there's the Broad Street line and then there's the Market Frankfurt line. So one goes north to south on one vector. And the other goes east to west on one vector. So it's just to give you a point of comparison, it's it's pretty limiting. but New York, you can it's it's so even just within the tiny island of Manhattan, there's a million lines. You can go from east to west, north to south, across, up and down multiple different avenues and all these different train lines. And it just it opens up that opportunity to get to places that are otherwise. Kind of difficult to get to. I mean, DC is the same problem. DC's transit system was really designed to help people from Maryland and Virginia, the surrounding suburbs get into the city and doesn't really well facilitate intra-city transit. So often in DC, which is where I live now, the best place to get somewhere is not the metro. It's like maybe there's buses, but then that are kind of not very reliable. And then there's walking or taking a car, like a a ride share or a taxi or something like that. So New York was I I never needed it actually, it's really funny. My friends always l used to make fun of me because they were like, of all the people, you should be the one being l very liberal about taking cabs places, you know, just because of my low vision. And I was the most diehard, I never took a cab ever, ever, ever. I was like, it's not the most efficient way to get anywhere. I'd rather ride the subway. I I I I feel like I know where I am. I can count the stops. I can you know, I know how to do it and then so like even at like late at night, at all hours, I like when I sometimes when I should be taking a cab, I would always take the train. because it was just such a it was such a resource to me that I like never had before. speaker-1: I wanna dig into that a little more because I feel like this is something, you know, I I feel and we've heard in other interviews, but that trust it takes to get into a car with a stranger, even if they're, you know, a cab driver or a ride share driver, versus what it feels like to sort of be able to get somewhere on transit or, you know, without having to sort of put yourself in that position of of relying on, you know, an individual in a somewhat private situation very directly. Is that something that you think impacts? Your decision to, you know, try to always take transit when possible, or was it more just the, you know, transit is is a more efficient way to travel in cities than than cars? speaker-0: I definitely a little bit sometimes in the if I was forced into a cab in New York, I would get a little like, ugh, this is like I'm alone in the car with this person. But mostly I think I think and also like probably my view is colored now with like years and years of just like having to rely on Uber and that's kind of broken me from like that fear. because it's just become so habitual. But yeah, that was definitely a thing. And the other piece of it was I felt like in a car. In the city, I felt disoriented. Like I didn't like that I didn't know what cross streets I was at. Like I didn't like that I had to rely on someone else to tell me where I was. Whereas on the train, like I was mentioning, I could count the stops. I knew where each stop, like when I would get out at any given stop, like exactly where I was. Whereas like if the cab's dropping you off, you're like, okay, what corner am I on? Whereas like on the train, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get off at the northwest corner. Here's the sign that says this is the northwest corner and I know that's where I am and then I can orient myself from there. So more so with the cabs and things, and even I felt this way about buses. I just found it too disorienting. Whereas on the train I like knew exactly where I was. speaker-2: would you say that in D C you get an opportunity to kinda walk around a little bit more? Like do you it does that give you the the freedom to maybe still kind of experience the life outside of this shell that kind of just deposits you somewhere? speaker-0: absolutely. And I think that's also a function of where I live in DC. So I live in downtown DC in DuPont Circle. And I chose to live there. The walkability is incredible. So yes, I spend a lot of time walking around, exploring in that way as well. And I do I do ride the metro. I ride the metro every day to go to work, to go to all kinds of places. So it's not like it's completely useless. the metro in DC does get you places, and so I use that resource a ton. But sometimes when there's like that hard to reach, like, I could take two buses to get here, or I could just call a car and get there faster. so that's a little annoying. But where I live in DC, I'm very fortunate that is is incredibly walkable and I I definitely take advantage of that. speaker-1: to sidetrack us for a minute. This is a pre-written question. But so one thing I've I've, you know, in in talking about and and we can go here or not, but autonomous vehicles. and do because you won't have that ability to sort of ask a driver to orient you, have you used Waymo or any of them yet in other cities and experience what it feels like to try to orient yourself or are they helpful in helping you orient? speaker-0: I've never taken a Waymo. Incidentally, I was in San Francisco in May of this year, and I was with my my husband and my daughter, and I I I said, I said, I wanna I wanna take a Waymo while we're here, but then we just ran out of time. So we didn't get a chance to try it out because I was very curious. But I I actually have never had an experience with an autonomous vehicle yet. speaker-1: Yeah, I was for me with low vision, I actually found it way easier to find vehicle because they have these like they're just very identifiable compared to a car. Like I've gotten in random strangers' cars that were not my Uber or Lip Driver before by accident because I couldn't see the license plate and that's never fun. And so I appreciated the finding the car aspect that like tells you what color like for low vision it was very useful. speaker-0: I would love to and okay, so it's funny that you mentioned about the so when I first moved to DC, it was in twenty fourteen. And I think like I think Uber and Lyft were I don't even know if Lyft was around at that point and Uber was it was not quite as ubiquitous as as it is now, or at least not to me coming from New York. And 'cause I don't think like I even now I don't know that New Yorkers like use those services as much because it's just much faster and easier to get somewhere on the subway. But anyway, I was, you know, my my family was really encouraging me, why don't you use Rideshare? It will help you get around to places that are hard to get to in DC. And I remember thinking, you know, at that point I was just like in my blindness journey. I was like, how in the world? How am I gonna find the car in the middle of traffic? I just I can't see how that's gonna work for me as a blind person. And then I met a friend, and we were sitting one day having a drink, and she's like, Okay. We were like wrapping up, getting the bill. She's Okay, my my Uber's here, I gotta go. And I was like, Huh. And she's like completely blind from childhood or or or birth. I don't know which, but has much less prob perhaps no little to no usable vision. So I was, you know, and I was just like, she can do that. I guess I can figure it out then. So so I was resistant to the ride share, for that reason that you mentioned, Anna, of that that fear of getting into the wrong car or not being able to find the car and having to run in the middle of traffic to figure it out, that sort of thing. speaker-1: Before we pivot and talk about your podcast, which I want to make sure we do, I wanna ask. So you you've lived in three pretty transit rich cities on the East Coast. Have you, when I you know, in your professional world and trying to figure out where to live with your family, how does transit access factor into that? Has it been a major part of your decisions around jobs or housing? Or have you figured out how to make transportation work sort of after the back? speaker-0: One hundred percent absolutely. And I'll give you two examples. So recently I went on the academic job market to become a law professor, and I actually did get an offer from another school other than the one that I teach at right now, UDC. I won't say the name of the school, but it was essentially in the middle of nowhere. And i it was my first offer. And these jobs, as you might imagine, are few and far between and very, very, very competitive and difficult to get. So, and this offer came before my offer from UBC. And so at that point it was my only offer. And I I called the dean and I said, you know, I tell me what's my what's my transportation solution? there was no zero public transit. The the nearest big city, one of them was 30 to 40 minutes away, the other one was an hour away. There were no trains to get to and from those two cities. The only option I would have is to live right by the school where there was n nothing. And it was quite rural area, a kind of a rural coastal kind of town. And they didn't have any solution for me. They offered me a sort of a stopgap for the first year, some sort of transit subsidy to pay for cars. And I just I had to say no. I reflected, I discussed it with my husband, and I just, I just couldn't put myself in that position. I know other blind people do because they have to, but I did I had a choice at that moment, and so I chose no. And a lot of people like mentor like people I, you know, who are trying to mentor me through this process really like were shocked. And how could you turn down this this offer that these are so hard to get? You got one and you turned it down. What are you crazy? And I said, no, I think it's a completely rational choice for me to choose not to put myself in that position. and so I walked away. And then the other example I'll give is right now, so we live in an apartment in downtown DC, and we just had a baby. I have a 10 month old daughter, and space is at a deficit. And we were thinking about how do we get more space? And Getting more space is from what we have gleaned from kind of examining the real estate market comes at the cost of being away from trains, away from public transit. And right now we are choosing to not make that move and to sacrifice the space because we want walkability and we want access to trains. And so yes, this is a huge, huge factor in my decision making around jobs and around where, you know, where my family is living. Moment. speaker-1: I feel you on the kitten piece. That's how I left New York. Where's face? And it's painful. speaker-0: It comes at a price. It comes at a price. Yeah. speaker-2: It's a real choice you have to make. I mean, I think about you know, when Anna and I first met, we were living in the same neighborhood in Seattle. And I think that's one area of the city where you can get space. And there is a train line that runs through the neighborhood, but boy is it not convenient to get to. It's a twenty minute walk, maybe. and they keep delaying a closer station as well. And so those are just the hard choices you have to make and at some point, you know, you You can learn to live within a smaller space, right? but you can't always you know, have the opportunity to live in a place where you you have that autonomy. It's a huge huge thing for a lot of people. but speaking of which, I I'm curious, personally, because you you you talk about you know, you're professor at a law school, you are a lawyer. And you're a podcaster. And and I I love one of my favorite things about this is we're we're finding out more and more about people's creative avenues, and how their advocacy kind of blends into that. How did you get started? What was what was the kind of motivation for starting down to the struts? Like how did that happen? speaker-0: It started in 2020 when everyone was sitting around at home in the beginning of the pandemic. And I was thinking about how could I use this time in a way? The pandemic was a really difficult, devastating, tragic time for everyone. So many people, so many lost lives, so many challenges. but you know. we suddenly were given this gift of time because nobody was doing anything. And I was thinking about what can I do? I had just sort of come into disability community, come into that identity, kind of started connecting some dots between that and my work, in the access to justice space. And so I I was in I, you know, I love the medium of audio and I was thinking of something interesting and creative to do. And I thought, I love listening to podcasts. Why don't I start a podcast? And so that's kind of how the idea was born. And then I reached out to the late great Alice Wong, and to my great surprise, she responded to my query because at that time I found I discovered the Disability Visibility Project podcast and was just really inspired by the work that Alice was doing. And then Alice connected me to some other people, Thomas Reed and Cheryl Green. Who are giants in the world of audio description and also podcasters. And so they really led me and showed me the way in terms of how to create an accessible podcast and how to think about my content and my brand and all these different things. And so that's kind of where that came from. And I mean, of course, because I am a lawyer. you know, it's an just to share with it's an interview based show, and we're talking about disability design and intersectionality. So that's very, very broad. And, you know, talking about the arts and accessibility. And I had Anna come on to talk about all of her amazing research on non drivers. and so it's a it's really broad, but of course tends to skew a little bit towards you know, advocacy and law. This relationship. And I was really interested particularly in this relationship between law and rights and kind of people's attitudes and culture change. So, you know, where does law meet culture change? And it's kind of a chicken and egg thing, right? You know, you need the culture change to push the law to change, but you also need the law to drive the cultural change. So that's kind of an underlying theme that threads through the entire show as as you know, we I I talk about like a broad variety of topics. speaker-1: I didn't know the Ali Fong connection. That's really cool to hear about and amazing that that that she helped nudge this into existence. She was definitely just you know, on Twitter. Part of the reason I found connection in space in the disability community back in like twenty seventeen when I was like, dude, is this a community I fit in? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, she she was a she was a guiding light for so many people and you know, may her memory be a blessing. speaker-1: It's funny 'cause you you you know, I I I've listened to I think most of your episodes and some of those that stick with me the most. I mean, I it is the the one you shared about your bike camping trip. I guess as someone who loves to bike, a blind bike camping trip, I was like, Wow, the logistics and the things that you had to think about, you know, in it to to have that work for a group of people was really cool for me to think through and and also just I don't know, I it it I feel like we we definitely have, you know, all of us, even those of us with disabilities, carry like these sort of like you know, limits in our heads around what we think is possible and and and what we conceive as, you know. realistically or feasible things for disabled people to do. And to that story to me it just really blew my mind and and to yeah and and the joy and and sort of the the voices that you included in that. I I don't know. but we do you do you have a favorite episode? What are some of your your favorite episodes or or episodes you would recommend for folks to to engage with? speaker-0: That's hard. I my interview with Alice was a highlight for me. I did get to interview her. I feel so blessed and fortunate that we got to do that. That was really cool. and I I, you know, I really, you know, at the risk of sounding trite, Anna, I really enjoyed our conversation. I I, you know, I love episodes where I can really like learn something new. And I think What I loved about that conversation that we had about your your book, speaker-1: Is speaker-0: the way in which you framed the issue, which is so different. Cause I think we often when we we're talking about, Access to transportation from a disability like lens. We kind of look at it solely through that lens and think about, you know, things like the ADA and Section 504 and litigation around access to you know making transit systems more accessible. And I think that what I loved about that conversation was how you broadened out that framing and, you know, you talked about undocumented immigrants and children, the elderly and all the different w kinds of people that are affected by a by sort of transit that centers cars and and all the people, all the various constituencies who are left out when we when we center cars. And I really that was so insightful and it really opened my mind to how we could create this unlikely coalition of people that could transform how we think about transportation in this country. So I I really that was like a highlight conversation for me as well. speaker-1: I really appreciated actually like a lot of my conversations with lawyers, especially like, you know, attorneys working in the disability rights space can feel kind of threatened by this idea that we want to like broaden the coalition and not make it about, you know, the ADA, right? And and you you talk about, you know, how our access needs are the same as other people's. It it makes it more difficult to make those, you know, disability claims. Right. And so I I think you were one of the first attorneys I've spoken to who really got you know, or didn't feel threatened, I think, by that, like maybe we need a different and broader coalition to do this work and and and maybe it happens outside of that, you know, legal framework in some ways. speaker-0: That's a lot of what informs my thinking when we talk about legal issues on the podcast. Another example would be in the reverse direction. So I do a lot of work at the intersection of disability and immigration, for example. And I have really had a time trying to get immigration advocates to think about immigration from kind of like a disability lens. And what I mean by lens is not just Like of course, there's the notion of we need to include disability rights issues in our immigration advocacy, but also the idea that dis of of like disability as kind of like method, how do we use principles of access to think about how we can reimagine immigration? So, like one example would be what why don't we have kind of like a some kind of like caregiving visa pathway, right? There's so many people who provide care and need care, and we have this kind of like ridiculous underground system of immigrant caregivers. Why not, you know, you know, make that more institutionalized in some way? So that's just one example. But just using kind of ideas of interdependence and kind of disability justice principles like that to think about how we reimagine. migration. So I I definitely feel that in the in in other directions too, where there just isn't enough dialogue. And that's another as underlying thread of the podcast is that to generate these conversations and bring disability thinking into them. speaker-1: Cool. Do you wanna talk a little bit and we can i i if you don't want to talk about this, we can cut this part entirely, but y your work when you work for the federal government and w the work you were doing there and how that's shifted and and you know, what you learned from that experience. speaker-0: Yeah, I'm happy to talk a little bit about that. And you know, I think so before I joined UDC, I had the privilege of working in the Department of Justice as an attorney in an office called the Office for Access to Justice that was originally created in the Obama administration and then it was shut down briefly starting in 2018 and then The Biden administration reopened it in 2021 and it's a kind of a freestanding office in DOJ. and it's it's a really it's a really interesting mission because it's it's a mission that kind of cross cuts the entire government. So this idea of kind of making federal agencies more accessible for kind of the everyday people who need them, whether it's to access benefits, whether it's when they are kind of brought in by the government, say for example, as the results of immigration enforcement in immigration court, when they when they apply an appeal, social security benefits, all those types of different things. And so thinking through how can we make those processes more accessible for people. And again, I think what was interesting, the one thing I'll say about the federal government experience was just the way in which Disability rights was sort of siloed in its own kind of space. And and I think this is generally true. There's so much sub-specialization within and between government agencies. And something that I observed as an interesting challenge, which definitely connects with what you were saying, Anna, about disability rights lawyers and transit advocacy. And then, you know, when I was say what I was saying about immigration, this This sort of difficulty and challenge with integrated thinking about issues. So, one example I would give and is language access. So, while I was there, I was had the privilege of working on DOJ's revised language access plan, which hadn't been updated since like 2013. And this language access plan that we created was the first one that actually acknowledged sign languages as languages. But what was interesting when we when it came down to implementation, was of course the standards and the laws around language access are distinct from, you know, the requirements of disability rights, law and compliance. And so it was it was kind of interesting to think about, okay, how do we then what do we do with people who are not English speakers, but who use sign languages other than ASL? So indigenous sign languages, et cetera. So that was just like an interesting problem that showed up in terms of, well, how do we navigate this? Because the rules around providing an A like a sign language interpreter are different than language access. the legal standards are different, but we have these human beings who interact with these systems who who have both needs. And then what do you do with that? Like the system isn't set up for them. So I think it was it was a really interesting experience to see again, like kind of the the law is a powerful thing in it in that it it confers and helps us to protect the rights of people, but then it doesn't sort of it it fails in in kind of addressing this messiness of human human reality. speaker-1: That's a really interesting piece. I started thinking about I think it was your episode with H Hobb and Girma, around yeah, and talking about Braille, if I'm remembering. And, you know, I I've been super interested with w you know, the the why I I wish I had been taught Braille as a kid. I was not. and thinking about you know, just other forms of communication being more accessible to many people with disabilities, but there's a a mainstreaming or a desire to have people, you know, fit into yeah, dominant communication forums. speaker-0: Yeah, the Braille stuff is really interesting. It's crazy that like 10 or only 10 or 20% of people who are blind actually use Braille. And there's actually just a side note, this wonderful new documentary that just came to came out. I went to a screening of it at the Library of Congress just earlier this week. It's called Braille It. And it's these three kids who are basically given the camera For the National Braille, and they went through the National Braille Challenge, which I had never even heard of. It's all these kids, and they they come, it's this very competitive thing, and they're basically competing in terms of like their their braille skills. and it's it's just a it's a huge the the film itself, it was it was kind of the kids really drove, they were essentially the directors, they drove the what was filmed and how it was cut together. so it's really, really cool. And it it just the the importance of it just highlights the importance of braille literacy for these kids in order to facilitate their ability to kind of engage and like kind of do civic engagement and just kind of be a part of the world around them. So it was it was really it was really neat. and I, you know, I was never offered Braille as a kid, because my, I don't know about you, but my vision was like, quote, like too good. So I could still read print at that point. So it wasn't even an option on the table. But then, as it turns out, would have been tremendously valuable and helpful to me. so yeah, I think I think all of these like modalities of communication are are so important to think about. and we leave so many people out when we don't. speaker-1: I'm so excited to hear that you like that film. I have tickets to go see it with my kid this weekend in Seattle, and I wasn't sure if it's gonna be a cringy disability film. speaker-0: No, no, no. It is it is delightful. And pay attention. There's w the one of the three kids, her name is Salome. She is a trip. You are going to just delightful. It's it's so heartwarming and it's it was really, really good. speaker-1: That was a a good sidetrack. But no, I I do think I mean from linking it back to transportation, I spend a lot of time as a transportation advocate speaking in public meetings and I can't like I have a really difficult time reading text out loud. and and yeah, I as a lot of low vision people do, we're pretty awkward when we're trying speaker-0: For speaker-1: to read something. But if you're a braille reader, I mean just like the difference in in communication and you know, ability to verbally communicate i in reading a script. I'm just blown away when I hear learn braille as kids and I'm so envious. speaker-0: Trust me. I to get up and teach every week. And I'm just like, if I could read my lecture notes in Braille, it would be so much easier. Like So I have to do this like convoluted thing of like using my screen reader and like formatting it this certain way so I can like listen and then read. speaker-1: I feel like people in the school districts who are, you know, hesitant to teach Braille should hear this because it is so important verbal communication these days and now especially that everything video and audio, like to not be able to hear notes is really a a a challenge. speaker-0: It puts you at like this material disadvantage, I feel like. I just think like in my opinion, any kid, no matter how good their usable vision is, no matter if they have a if they have low vision, they should learn braille. That's my view. Maybe that's an extreme view, but that is my view. Agree. speaker-1: And it's that I I you know, in the same way that ASL and sta is, you know, a cultural identity, right? Why can't Braille be viewed as that part of, you know, belonging to the low vision and blind community? speaker-0: Yeah, I mean I agree. Like even even outside of being able to do public speaking, like yeah, it is it's such a it makes it it gives you this sense of belonging. I s w you'll see it in the film when you watch the film. Like all these kids, they all are learning Braille from young ages. And like they have this like camaraderie. I'm like, I wish I had that as a young person. Like I wish I had gone to the National Braille Challenge and like met all these cool people and had friends and like it's it It makes you feel like you belong to some somewhere, you know. speaker-2: That I find that so interesting. Like, so kind of un unlike you two, and maybe it's just that I don't know how this happened, but I did have people come and teach me Braille and I and I forgot how to read it. speaker-0: like a crapshoot. You were in the right school district. speaker-2: I think that was probably it. 'Cause 'cause like and but for me, you know, 'cause they came and they they had like the magnifier for the mon the computer monitors and for reading and and my books and like the Tommy Braille. And I think even until like my most recent move, I had like a book from childhood that I had held on to. but I I remember being, you know, I think I like six or seven, eight years old, something like that, and just so I already felt so different from a lot of kids and so I was so against having like anything that made me feel different. and I don't know if it's just that the generational change, you know, that these kids are just more open with themselves or what, but like that just feels it's really incredible to hear that, honestly. speaker-0: Yeah. And I wonder if it's a function of like parents who are somehow able to connect with blindness community for their kids. Like I don't I some of these kids definitely were coming from like, you know, schools for the blind, but also like mainstreamed kids that have TVIs. I don't know. I think it depends on what like how you're able to hook in. Because I have dev the exact same experience, Devin. Like that's why I didn't use a white cane until I was like 30 something, because I just didn't want to look different from other people, even at the risk of my own safety, which is like tragic. and so I I totally hear that. And that was my experience. But I I think it's a combo. I think it's like having parents or having somehow having some portal into blindness community, whether that's through NFB, ACB, going to a blind school, whatever it may be. And then also I think you're right that it is generational. I think kids nowadays are much more, at least I in my observation, much more comfortable. Expressing their uniqueness in ways that we probably weren't. speaker-1: Part of it too is putting out stuff like this. I mean, not that, you know, podcasts like this or your podcasts have a huge youth audience, but they probably do, right? There are young people out there who can find this stuff and feel seen. speaker-0: Cultural representation, absolutely. And I think our, you know, our d beloved departed Alice Wong contributed significantly to that, elevating that, elevating disability culture. I think that is something I don't even I mean like if you told me that phrase disability culture when I was like, you know, in high school or even college, even law school, I would have looked at you like you were nuts. You know, like but now it's it's very much, you know, it's not I wouldn't say it's mainstream, but it Much more there's there's something there for people. speaker-2: You know, we do end our podcast usually by asking our guests what makes them feel hopeful, you know, and and I'm curious, especially from your perspective, you you know, from working in the highest levels of government t down to you know, podcasting I see as a grassroots medium for advocacy. kind of seen everywhere, you know, from the top to the bottom and in between. I'm curious What in particular does make you feel hopeful for non-drivers and for the future? We talked a lot about hopeful things, but is there one thing in particular that really sticks out? speaker-0: I have to say, related to the conversation we were just having about the film Braille It, what makes me hopeful is our young people who are activating from a very young age, who because of the work that you're doing, the work that Alice Wong did, and so many other people in the disability community to create disability culture and to advance disability culture, that we are going to have a generation. That is more than just post-ADA, but a generation that will demand nothing less than full inclusion. And that full inclusion includes the ability to take a quote from Jacobis Tenbroke, who was a famous blind lawyer, that would advance the ability of disabled people to live in the world. And in order to live in the world. You have to be able to transit through the world. And I'm just so hopeful when I see these young people that won't take no for an answer and who will not stop until they have what they deserve and what they need to survive and live in the world. So that that is what gives me the speaker-1: That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. speaker-0: It was so good to reconnect, Anna. So lovely to meet you, Devin. I I love the show. I'm so glad you guys are doing this. So exciting. speaker-1: Thanks for listening to Non-Driver. I'm Anna Zievarts. speaker-2: And I'm Devin Silvernail. If today's conversation resonated with you, please subscribe and share the show with a friend. speaker-1: You can also leave us a review wherever you listen. It genuinely helps other people find the show. speaker-2: Non-Driver is brought to you by the NonDrivers Alliance. Find more info at non drivers.org. speaker-1: And this episode was produced by Devon. speaker-2: Want to get in touch? Email us at non-driverpodcast at proton.me. speaker-1: We'll see you next week.