Latest / The Daily Writer / Tips for Improving Your Nonfiction Book Proposal | Margot Starbuck

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Tips for Improving Your Nonfiction Book Proposal | Margot Starbuck · The Daily Writer

0:08
SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Rider Podcast.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm an author and ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me for this episode of our Summer Expert series.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Well imagine if you were taking a trip across the country from, let's say, New York to LA.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: You probably wouldn't just hop in the car and start driving.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Instead, you'd plot out your journey using something like Google Maps, Apple Maps, or if you're a little bit old-fashioned, maybe even a good old paper map.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: Yet failing to plan out the journey is exactly what a lot of authors do when it comes to their books, and that's why putting together a good book proposal is so important.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: Now, we usually think of book proposals as a document that's only used when authors are pitching an agent or a traditional publisher.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: However, every time that I write a book for myself or for a client as a ghostwriter, I always put together a detailed document that contains elements of a book proposal.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: And regardless of what your publishing pathway is, a proposal is a powerful tool to help you know whether or not you're truly ready to write and publish.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: And my guest today is here to share some valuable tips on improving your next nonfiction book proposal.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Margot Starbuck is a graduate of Westmont College and Princeton Seminary, is a New York Times bestselling writer, and has written over 40 books.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: She has touched over 200 major publishing projects as an author, writer, coach, or editor.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: As a collaborator serving publishers and communicators, Margot treasures the privilege of writing alongside athletes, entertainers, and overcomers.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: She counts it a privilege to journey with individuals as they share their most compelling and intimate stories with readers.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: As a speaker at writing conferences around the country, Margot equips writers who want to be published.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: She reviews book proposals on manuscripts, showing writers what's working well and what can be improved, as well as offering practical strategies to execute those changes.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: She's particularly passionate about working to elevate the voices of communicators of color within Christian publishing.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: Margot lives in a neighborhood in Durham, North Carolina that's built around friends with disabilities.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: You can find all of her books, resources, and also you can grab her free nonfiction book readiness quiz at Margostarbok.com.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: And with that, here's our conversation.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: Margot, welcome to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we've chatted a couple times before, but this is your first official appearance on the show.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to have you.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: It's fun to have this conversation.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Now I have to say, I have never met anybody else with your last name.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: You have an awesome last name.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: Is that a common like is Starbuck a common last name?
2:53
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we have Starbucks coffee.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: It really is not.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: And you know, in the late 80s, early 90s, whenever people would travel to Seattle, they'd bring me back a cool Starbucks mug, Starbucks something.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Nobody brings me anything anymore from Starbucks.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: But no, you're right.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: I have not met a lot of other Starbucks.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, we just went through Starbucks the other day, and every time I take my wife, my wife loves coffee and Starbucks.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: Every time we go through, they have some crazy new items that we always have to try.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: So I have a very good feeling when I think of Starbucks.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: And as I'm talking to you today, I'm just reminded, you know, these conversations are sort of like mental and emotional caffeine.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're just they just give you a boost.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: So excited to have you here today.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, I always want to start out with asking people about how did they get into books, writing, uh, working with other people who do books.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm gonna ask the same thing to you, obviously.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm always curious, um, like how did you get into this field of helping people with books and writing and so forth?
3:55
SPEAKER_00: I think it's interesting too, because I think every one of us has a different journey, different entrance ramp.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: And I had three little kiddos at home when a friend invited me to a writing conference.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: I just sort of needed a break.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: But once I got there, everything in me came alive.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: I heard publishers saying that we want to publish people who have built a platform.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: So I go home, and as my youngest is marching off to preschool, I spend a year pitching articles.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the year, that was enough to demonstrate to a smaller publisher that they wanted to publish me.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, I got a literary agent, and I published five books in five years.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: They were um kind of Christian living books, but but nothing, I did not have a brand.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: Everyone was something different and interesting, but it did not pay the bills.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: And about that time, my marriage ended, and my literary agent was wonderful.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: He gave me the opportunity to ghostwrite, and it just felt like a real sweet spot.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: A publisher gave me the opportunity to edit a book.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, I just found, and what's funny about that is when I started writing, I knew that both my editor, my literary agent at one time had written books, written articles.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: And what I thought to myself is like, oh, what went so wrong with their lives that that now, like one's an editor, one's an agent, and and and now I'm like an editor nerd.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: I love it so much.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: So I so I do understand.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: I was very arrogant originally, but um, yeah, love doing both editing and writing now.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: I think you should do what makes you happy.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, some people love writing books, uh, some people are great editors.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Just recently, I I don't I I'm not a professional editor or copy editor on or proofreader on any level whatsoever.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: But as a favor to somebody else a couple weeks ago, I proofread a book that I had ghostwritten last year.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: They they just wanted like a final set of eyes on it.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, just let me do a readover.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think I spent six or eight hours.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: This was like a 70,000-word book, just kind of reading through it, marking errors, you know.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: And I was so tired at the end of that.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: I I told my friend that this has increased my respect for editors and copy editors, proofreaders, and copy editors so drastically, because it is far more exhausting to me than ghostwriting.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, people have different things they do, and we all have things that give us energy or take away our energy.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: And man, you're exactly right.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Thank God for editors and agents, because those are some of the unsung heroes in the book world.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, I agree, I agree.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd love to dive into uh, I guess I'm gonna call this uh a free download slash lead magnet, whatever term you want to put on this, which is actually how we connected to begin with, which was uh almost like a random thing, but uh you know, I don't know if how people feel about things being random or not, but I was actually searching, I forget how I came across you, but it was I was searching for like a writing quiz.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I was putting together one, and I think you had you had a URL, it's like writingquiz.com or what what is it?
7:14
SPEAKER_00: It's writer quiz.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Writer quiz.com, that's right.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: And that's how I came across your stuff, and I was like, oh, she's legit.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: This is really good stuff.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: And I downloaded your your lead magnet, which is uh basically all about how to how to know if your book proposals ready to go.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Is that a fair way of explaining that?
7:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, are you ready to be published, to pitch agents, to pitch publishers?
7:37
SPEAKER_00: Are you ready?
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's like a readiness quiz almost, and I think what you put together is helpful.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: And but before we wrap up this interview, I I want to make sure we point people to that because they need to get this.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: I learned some things from it, which is uh I loved it.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: So I just thought we would walk through some of these elements where you're talking about how to know if you're ready to hit publish.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: And one thing I do want to mention is no matter what your publishing pathway, you need to have these things in place, you know.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh just because you're self-publishing does not mean you don't have to think about these things.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: So I'll I'll just walk through these and um I would love to get your your take on this and uh so we can give our our listeners some value.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Okay, the first first step here is to know your reader.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: So you talk about the importance of identifying your target reader.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of authors don't do this, they just dive into the writing.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: What why is this so important to identify your target reader?
8:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, an author friend named Jonathan Merritt um said something that oh makes so much sense.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: He said, if you write a book for everyone, you end up writing a book for no one.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: But if you write brilliant, if you write a book for someone, you end up writing a book for everyone.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: So when I ask people who's your target audience, they say everyone.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Ah, you know, that is not the right answer.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: But the it's it's counterintuitive, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: The more specific you can be, the more you can meet the need of one reader, then the rest of us sort of kind of get to listen in.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: I think it's so important.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: So what I'm encouraging people to think about is age, uh, gender, education, income, job, favorite websites, favorite TV show, everything you can know about your reader is going to help you, whether it's book proposal, whether it's the book, but really when you write to that one reader, you're going to be able to meet their needs and serve your reader better.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Do you think sometimes writers struggle with this a little bit because sometimes we feel a pressure that when we're writing, we we are envisioning this crowd of people out there, kind of who is the audience for what we're doing, but that's not the way we experience books.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: We experience them as an individual.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: And so I love what you're saying here because that's gonna help us to target in on who's that one single type of person who we're writing to.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh, the writing is gonna be so much better.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: And even when I'm reading a manuscript and I can hear the writer writing to, okay, so I'm I'm in the south now, but writing to y'all, like all of y'all.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: I I that's where I'm gonna flag that and say, actually, you are speaking to one reader, they want that experience with you, they don't want to be one in a huge audience of listeners, but really that's exactly right.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: You're writing to that one person.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: So I wonder what it would be if somebody was writing to a Missouri resident.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: I talked to somebody, I'm kind of being facetious, but I'm talking to somebody this morning, we're both from Missouri, and we were talking about how you know how Missourians think and act and why we have the the way that we look at the world, which is not unique to Missouri, I guess, but uh in comparison to like somebody from the East Coast or the South or the West Coast or the North, whatever.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: And so what you're saying is the more that you can really lock in on that person and talk to them in the way that they like to be communicated with, the more effective it's gonna be.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: And we know that every reader is asking, what's in it for me?
11:06
SPEAKER_00: And that's exactly why it's so important to know your reader, because you want to make sure there's a payoff for that reader who's reading your book that that at least you can answer that question, what's in it for my reader?
11:17
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay, let me go into number two.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is one of the most important things that you talk about in figuring out your publishing readiness.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: So you talk about why we need to identify the felt need that causes your reader to buy and read your book.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's good because I work on a lot of business books, and the way a lot of business books are framed is you know, we're solving this sort of philosophical or intellectual problem or this business problem.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you read these kind of books and you just go, okay, I recognize the value in this, but like it's emotionally detached.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: So what are you talking about with this sort of felt need?
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Like what's what's behind that and how do we discover that?
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: We know that people buy and read books that meet a felt need.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, if you got like how to lose weight, eating p, you know, just pizza or how to make a million dollars scrolling on your phone, that those are going to be best sellers because those felt needs are so palpable.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: Making money, finding the love of your life, you know, losing weight, finding your purpose, those felt needs are palpable and they will cause readers to drop dollars on the book and then spend time reading the book.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: And if your book is not doing that, not meeting a felt need the reader has, why on earth should they buy it?
12:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, so a lot of times somebody will write something and if it's not written for that reader, maybe it should just stay in a journal and should not be a published book.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I am I'm wanting to encourage writers to make sure they know what felt need is gonna cause the reader to buy this book and then make sure in the book that they're meeting that felt need.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Or you could also say the reader has a problem and you're offering a solution for the reader.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: Is there almost a like there, there's how would I say this?
13:14
SPEAKER_01: There's sort of the intellectual problem or the there's the problem, but then there's the emotion behind the problem.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, so I have this business problem.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Let's say it's a marketing book, I've got this problem marketing my business, my income is not where I want it to be.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I can't pay my team, whatever, whatever problem that is.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: But then you're saying if we can really tune into the emotions that person is feeling because they can't market their business well, then then we're really gonna hook them because now we've we've tuned in to the real reasons that somebody wants something or needs something.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: It's the emotional uh thing.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Is that was that fair to say?
13:53
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, New York Times bestselling author named Lisa Turkerst, she also coaches writers, and this is exactly what I've heard her say.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad you're naming it because she really encourages authors.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: What she asked the question, what is your reader feeling as they begin this book?
14:13
SPEAKER_00: And and that's not one that I've dialed into as much, but you just named it.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: And when we can connect to them on that emotional level, I think yeah, they're gonna be more invested in what we're sharing with them.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: That's that's really good.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like I need to have her on the show too.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: I you I think you do.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: I think you do.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm always uh I've been ghostwriting for a while, and of course, you you've been around books um lots in lots of different ways, written your own, you know, ghostwriting, um, talking with a lot of authors, but there's always something more we can learn about our craft.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: And so, man, I love this idea of like grabbing them by the throat right at the very beginning with a story or a narrative or something, and and not letting them go.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I really want writers to this.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: It sounds so wrote to say start every chapter with a story, a vignette, a but it sounds so wrote, and yet I'm convinced that that's kind of how our brains work as we're reading, and that when we start with that story, we're giving them like sticky velcro.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: Then when we get to the big idea that we're excited about, it's like the Velcro has something to stick to.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: So I do really think that, yeah, a story about someone whose life is like theirs, whose problem is like theirs, really is a great way to grab our readers at the beginning of the book, beginning of chapters.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that the whole story component is so important.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, do you ever find yourself watching a TV show or a movie?
15:42
SPEAKER_01: And you know, kind of intellectually that it's not really that great, but you just want to see what happens, or because because of the nature of story and how it draws us in, you just kind of stay there watching it, even though you know it's not really that good, it just has like this compelling factor to it.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, there's something about it that we are a storytelling, story-receiving people.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, absolutely, I do.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: I think it's I think it's compelling.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: Every time I watch Friends, I feel that way.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: Because we always have this argument with sort of back and forth.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: My wife's she loves the TV show Friends.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: I love Seinfeld, and so we always have a Friends versus Seinfeld thing.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: And uh, I mean, I think Friends is actually a really good TV show, but we always kind of joke back and forth about it.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, why do why do people like this show?
16:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay, um, so we're not gonna go through actually all 10 of these because I do want people to download this, so I'm gonna skip around a little bit.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: Please I want to um I do want to go to the next one though, number three.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh this is in your lead magnet, where you talk about how we need to offer our readers a unique premise or a big idea.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: And probably many of us have heard this term, particularly with nonfiction business books.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: It's like a quote unquote big idea book.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Malcolm Gladwell writes a lot of these, Seth Godin writes these kinds of books, where it's you have one big idea and they're looking at this idea from different angles, that type of thing.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: How can we do that same thing in our books?
17:12
SPEAKER_01: Like how do you make sure that we're offering our readers something that is a unique premise, it's a big idea, something that is compelling?
17:20
SPEAKER_01: What thoughts can you share with us on that?
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and specifically, if you are it's important if you're publishing independently, but if you're trying to grab the attention of an agent, a publisher, I think you need to be able to deliver this really tightly, that you're offering a fresh big idea.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: And specifically, I want to say that it's it's tight and concise enough so that if somebody hears it, they can they can repeat it back.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: So it's simple.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be real wordy and complex.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: It's simple enough to repeat back.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: It is, it's unique in that it's it's saying something that other communicators aren't saying, right?
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Because there are these kind of big umbrella topics like, you know, finding your purpose or living healthy.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: What is it that you're saying that's that's a fresh angle?
18:09
SPEAKER_00: And there's an editor named Stephanie Smith.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: She calls it a fresh angle on a timeless truth.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: So especially something like healthy living, right?
18:17
SPEAKER_00: There's there's some timeless truths, but what what's the unique angle you're offering to it?
18:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's tight, there's that fresh angle, you're saying something others aren't saying.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: And then the the third component I'd say is that it is meeting a reader's need.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: So if you're offering a premise that does those three things, you can communicate it very clearly.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: You're saying something unique and it's meeting a reader's need.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: That feels like a really, a really fresh big idea that agents and publishers are going to be interested in.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: And you can't fake this either.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to, I think a lot, you know, our human tendency is to want to take shortcuts, but you have to actually do the work as an author to have an actual fresh and compelling and useful take on something, right?
19:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like you've got to know what you're talking about.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: You can't just sort of type something in chat GPT and expect it to give you a legitimate, fresh, interesting take on something.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: And I'd love to give an example.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: So okay, so my second book is for women.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: It's about beauty and body image.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, I know I read this someplace, but I don't remember where.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna take like half the credit for this one.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: But the premise is, you know, we've been told that our bodies are ornamental, but in fact, our bodies were made to be instrumental.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: So if you think of all these girls and women like trying to accept our bodies, that's sort of a fresh angle on it, right?
19:44
SPEAKER_00: Our bodies aren't just ornamental, but actually, let's think about our bodies as being instrumental in, you know, whether it's, you know, loving our friends, our neighbors, you know, the things we're able to do with our bodies.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: And I actually I live in a neighborhood built around friends with disabilities.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: And even for folks with the most um physical limitations, our bodies are still the ways that we're in relationship with people.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: Um so I'll say they're still instrumental.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: So that's a fresh premise in that it's, you know, it's it's a felt need that people have, but it's just giving them sort of a different angle, a different way to think about it.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to the conversation in just a minute, but I want to take a moment to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, Vellum.
20:30
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20:38
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20:43
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20:59
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21:06
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21:11
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21:17
SPEAKER_01: That's trivellum.com slash Kent.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: Now let's get back to the conversation.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Gosh, you're I feel like I'm I'm distracted during this conversation because I'm writing down notes.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: I really should be doing that as a podcast host.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: But you're giving me so much good stuff, I'm just like scratching it down.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: Now the question is whether it's actually legible.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: That's a whole nother conversation.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: You can listen to the podcast later if you missed something.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a reason I flunked handwriting like in the third grade.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: And it hasn't improved since then.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh let me go on to another one of the items that you talk about.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: And and I I think I actually misspoke earlier.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: I I mentioned that this lead magnet is all about book proposals.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: It's actually it's actually about publishing readiness.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: That would be more accurate to say.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: So So my apologies for that.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: People need to get it and just go through it.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: That's all I'm saying.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: It's good stuff.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: I do want to want to hone in on this is number five on this list, and you're talking about showing a publisher that you've built a platform.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like this is getting into like a really touchy subject because publishers want to be able to sell books, but a lot of authors have great ideas, or maybe they're great writers, but they have not actually built that platform of people that's going to allow the publisher to have a viable business asset, essentially.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: So what any thoughts on how how readers can build up their platforms or demonstrate to a publisher they have a viable platform?
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's and endless thoughts, so many thoughts.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: But you know what, you and I are both thinking about folks who may want to publish traditionally and also those who are publishing independently.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: And I really want to flag this for folks who are publishing independently because I think we have this hope that it's going to be so good and people are going to find it on Amazon and tell their friends.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: But the reality is you need to have an audience, even if you're publishing independently, or strategies to reach audiences.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: But the way what I want to coach writers is like, yes, you need to demonstrate that you've built an audience.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: And I want to encourage you to do it in a way that makes the most sense for who you are.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: So about the time that I was wanting to begin publishing books, I could see people who were getting lots and lots of speaking gigs.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: And I got some, but that wasn't me.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: And at that time, blogging was very big.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: And I had a blog, but not that many followers.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And um, I wasn't, I didn't really want to get my hustle on on social media.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: So as an introvert, the thing that worked for me to build my platform was to be pitching articles.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: And again, I had this big grid.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Within a year, I pitched 300 articles, but that does not mean that they were 300 unique pitches.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: If I would get a rejection, I'd I'd take it, massage it, send it on to the next place.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And all that means is that after a year, a publisher could see maybe 10 or 15 articles that I had published that signal to them someone cares what Marg has to say.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: And the other thing I want to say about both writing articles, being a guest on podcasts is that you are capitalizing off of someone else's platform.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Because if it's Margo on social media, it's just me working, working, working to try to get a few new followers.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: But both with writing articles and being a guest on someone else's podcast, they have built the audience.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: And there are all those readers, those listeners who are being exposed to you and your ideas.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: So as you think about it, whether you're introvert or extrovert, do it in a way that makes sense for who you are and how you're wired.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And then also be strategic in thinking about that business of capitalizing off of an audience that someone else has already built.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: So for people who are listening who feel like they sort of seize up anytime they hear the word marketing or getting on a podcast or those kind of things, how could we help those people to get more comfortable with the idea of promoting themselves?
25:12
SPEAKER_01: Especially, I think this is really important, especially if they have been doing client work a long time.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: They're used to supporting other people's books.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: But now, if you've got your own book or you want to market yourself or build your own platform, you've got to put yourself out there.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: How do we help people who feel that way become more comfortable with putting themselves out there and being more assertive with them being in the limelight?
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Two thoughts.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Before we get much further, I wanted to say that I have worked with authors who understand the importance of platform and they've finished the entire book proposal and they understand they're going to put a pause on it and then spend six months or one year or two years to invest in building that platform.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: And that's I see the sacrifice that it is, but I just want to name the fact that some writers do make that choice and it's really, it's really kind of smart.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the other thing I would say is I would just encourage them to be creative because some things are gonna feel horrible.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, have holding a microphone in front of an audience is is definitely not for everyone.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: So I want you to be creative.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: And so an example is working with a professor at a college in the Midwest.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: And in his book proposal, he had page after page of marketing ideas.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: And what he had done was he looked at his professional connections and social connections and just made this really, really robust list of marketing ideas.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, and even one was a free downloadable coloring page to go with this book.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, who knows if that downloadable coloring page is gonna, you know, get any new readers.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: But what it signaled to a publisher page after page of his creative marketing ideas.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: And I know this person with the podcast, and oh, this person in the alumni office where I went to school, I could write something for them.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Boy, that really signals to a publisher that this is someone who understands and is going to be intentional.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: Now, whether or not he executed all those things, I do not know.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: But if you're publishing independently, yes, go on and execute all those things.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: And um, if it is part of a book proposal for an agent or a publisher, you're signaling to them that you are going to be the partner who they want to publish.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Because that's what they're looking for.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: They're not looking for someone who's going to finish the draft, hit send, be done with it.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: They're looking for someone who will partner with them to market and sell this book as well as write the book.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: You know what's interesting is so I just finished a book proposal for uh how should I say I'm trying to choose my words carefully, some kind of purposefully big for a gentleman in the broader healthcare space.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: I would put it that way.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh he runs a runs a big company related to that.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: And the book is a little bit controversial.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: He's got like a controversial take on this specific issue.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: And we worked for a really long time in the proposal.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: You know, the proposal's like 50 or 60 pages.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, it was a huge, very complex project.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: And it was interesting.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: So the agent, we actually had a bunch of meetings with uh publishers, so they pitched it to like all the big New York publishers, a bunch of smaller ones.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: And it was interesting because we had several meetings with like acquisitions editors, these publishers, and I was really surprised.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: I had never been in those kinds of meetings where with the agent and the author as the ghostwriter, where the book was sort of being we were kind of making the case to work with this publisher, you know, this or that publisher.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: I was really surprised at how much of the conversation revolved around the author's platform, how many books they can sell.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: Are they going to this conference or that conference?
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh, how many books are they going to personally buy?
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Like the the vast bulk of the conversation was not about the big idea or the content of the book.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: It was about how many books can you sell?
29:08
SPEAKER_01: And that that real and that didn't surprise me in a way, but in a way it kind of did because I didn't realize it was so heavily skewed toward that.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, they have to make a living too.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a business.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Like it is a publishing business, they call it the publishing business because it's a business.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's worth saying that smaller, larger publishers who who got to pay the bills and pay for sometimes um acquisitions editors may have a quota of A-list authors they need to sign.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: So it was going to be B list and C list.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And I've been that C list author where they met their other quotas and the book that I was writing, it was about online dating.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: And they saw a niche in the market, uh, Christian dating book that needed to be filled.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: So they're like, okay, larger publisher can sign Margo without a huge platform because you know, we see the need for this.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: And then I also want to say that smaller publishers who are offering smaller advances are gonna have a little more flexibility to take a chance on a writer without the huge platform, um, which is kind of nice.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: They have that ability to see you, love your idea, love what you're about, and take a chance.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: It's just gonna be fewer dollars, but but can do consider smaller publishers for that reason.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the end of the day, a as the author, you're going, unless you're like a big A-list author, you're gonna be doing your own marketing anyway, pretty much.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think the more authors can accept that if they go with the traditional publisher, you know, the happier they're gonna be.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, at the end of the day, smaller publishers and bigger publishers, they're going to do the same thing with your book.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna go through the same process, they're gonna get your book in all the same places, and so like this this sort of obsession with oh, I've got to be published by a random house or something.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: The problem with the problem with that is that if you're unless you're an A lister, you're gonna be one among a lot of different people they're publishing that that year.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes a smaller publisher, I think, could actually be a much better choice.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're they're invested in in you and the success of your book in a way that a larger publisher may not be able to.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I would also throw out there for people who are ghostwriters or who want to get into it.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: I think if you know, part I think part of the fun of ghostwriting is getting to kind of choose your projects.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: And having done some stuff with traditional publishers, they always really appreciate when a ghostwriter is involved in it and is willing to help with marketing and be like a real team player because that basically they're getting like two for one.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: And so I think a really good flex as a ghostwriter is in those conversations to just make it clear hey, I'm I'm here to help.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Like whatever you guys need, I'm here to help with.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm here to support the author.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: I want to make this book successful.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't think a lot of ghostwriters do that, which is I think those people are missing out on a cool opportunity to really build their career.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that could even be something like um maybe that big platform author has a series of emails for their personal newsletter going to their audience, and hey, can I help you write those emails that are going to engage people with the content of this book?
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe write a pitch an article to this magazine about your book.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great reminder.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you know, at the end of the day, people are all human, I guess.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I don't guess, I know we all are.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: And well, although I have met a few people over the years, I kind of question whether they were truly human.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: But um, I don't even know what I mean by that.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: I haven't had enough caffeine yet today, apparently.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: But I think the more that you can do to build relationships with those publishers and editors and agents, you know, they're all human too, and they they want to feel valued and know that their work counts and all that.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: So uh a good human touch and some generosity and some kind words probably goes a long way with those people.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: And I'll say if you are seeking a traditional publisher, getting your body to a writer's conference is a great if you have the time and the dollars to spend on it.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: You are ideally learning and growing in your craft, you're connecting with publishers, with agents, with other writers, and that networking is so valuable.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: And it actually can happen with some virtual writing conferences as well, when they give you opportunities to have a short little meeting with an agent or a publisher or an author.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, those networking opportunities are are real valuable.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: Because you never know where something's gonna lead.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay, let me uh let me jump to this is the final item in your list here, and we'll just kind of start to wrap up with this.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: You talk about the need to discern which literary agent will be the right fit for your book.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Now, I know a lot of people are this is not gonna fit a lot of people because they're they're gonna be independently publishing, and so a literary agent is not gonna be involved in that.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: But for people who do want to go that route or who are curious about it, what are the best ways to to start this process?
34:16
SPEAKER_01: Because there's lots of literary agents out there.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: How do you even where do you even start with this process?
34:22
SPEAKER_00: Somebody recently asked me this on TikTok, and I know that my answer isn't entirely satisfying, but what I would encourage them to do is um it's not satisfying because I'm gonna say it begins with Googling.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: It begins with Googling, finding some literary agencies, but I want to tell you what to do once you get to the literary agency's website, is you're looking at different agents and you're looking for uh what types of projects that agent represents and would they be a good fit for you.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: So if there, if that agent is publishing a lot of books that that do not feel good to you, that are not your genre, if you are science fiction, if you're poetry, um the literary agent's website is going to tell you what they're looking for.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: Don't waste your time or their time pitching them something that they're not representing, but find some agents who are um publishing, accepting and publishing work that is similar to yours.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you're Googling if there are books that are similar to yours, it's not the worst idea to peek in the acknowledgments.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: Who they're thanking, you know, who represented them.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: And I also want to say this, ah, this can't say enough about this networking business that if you have someone, either a writer friend or some other connection who can introduce you to an agent or even a publisher, like that goes a long way.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: It does help you stand out a little bit, even if it's the simplest introductory email, be real, creative, and thorough about your networks and who might be able to be a helpful connection in that way.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: And boy, maybe even LinkedIn.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: You can you can start at LinkedIn to see who you're connected to.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: May know somebody.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the cool thing is you can you can connect with uh literally almost anybody in the world directly for free.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, isn't that kind of crazy when you sort of stop and think about the opportunities we have?
36:24
SPEAKER_01: And like there's no reason on earth anybody should not have a great network if they're willing to just put in a few minutes a day to do that.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I've noticed that with one woman, she hasn't published a book yet, but I see what she does on social media and I see the ways that she's not in it for herself, but she's encouraging this person and she's promoting that person and she's connecting with that one in ways that aren't self-serving but are serving others.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: Boy, I tell you what, when it comes time for her to write her book, to pitch her book, to sell her book, she's got this beautiful network of people that she's already invested in who will be there to help her as well.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of that.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: Um The Godfather is one of my favorite movies, as it is a lot of guys, and a lot of women, I'm sure.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: But it reminds me of that scene at the beginning where uh it's have you seen The Godfather, by the way?
37:24
SPEAKER_00: I have not, but I mean it's enough of a classic that I get the big idea.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: So so keep talking about The Godfather.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so most people have seen if you haven't seen The Godfather, it's it's a great movie.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And there's a scene at the beginning where uh and The Godfather actually has a double meaning because it's you have the father who and the son, Michael Corleone, actually becomes the godfather by the end of the movie.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, that's beside the point.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: But the very opening scene is it's this big long wedding scene, and there's supposedly this Sicilian tradition where uh the father of the bride cannot refuse a request that somebody makes of him on his daughter's wedding day.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: And so there's this scene, it actually opens in his study.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: All these people are coming in and asking for favors, like, oh, my daughter was attacked by these guys, you know.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: Please give me justice and exact revenge on these people who you know harassed my daughter.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, then the baker comes in, oh, my daughter's in love with this guy who's not like a legal immigrant.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh, can you fix it so that his papers are in order?
38:22
SPEAKER_01: It's all these things they want the godfather to do for them.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny because there's one scene where this guy comes in and then the godfather tells him, you know, someday in that day may never come, I may call upon you to do a favor for me.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: And by before the end of the movie, he does a big favor for him.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: And I mention that because I think that's a good analogy for how we can operate when it's not that we're exacting, you know, justice on people or that kind of thing, but it's it's the idea that we always want to be doing little favors and making people's lives better and adding value.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: And then when the time comes for us to maybe need something from those people, then they're gonna be way more willing to help us out with whatever we need.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, it doesn't involve like guns and murder and drugs and all that stuff.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, I think this this is such an important conversation because really a lot of this comes down to just doing the work and having a great network.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: It's like the the basics of having an author career.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: And uh Margo, I so appreciate you coming on the show and just talking through these things.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: I feel like we could talk for hours on just these few things you've had in your uh your download.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: Can you share for listeners uh what specific things that you can help them with and where they can find out more about those services and products and so forth?
39:44
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: If someone is publishing independently and they need a developmental editor, that's the first round of editing.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: I love doing those kind of edits because I'm gonna help you build a book that really serves your reader.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: And then if someone is seeking a traditional publisher, I have a course um equipping you to craft a really, really great book proposal.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, and once you've created that book proposal, I review it for you, uh, giving you ways to strengthen that book proposal that you're sending to an agent or a publisher.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's all at Margostarbuck.com.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: Margot's a weird M-A-R-G-O T, Margostarbuck.com.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I'm excited because I and I know that we've talked before, but I'm always looking for people in my network who I can send other people to for things that I don't do or offer.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: And I did not realize that you do developmental editing.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm so glad to hear that, truly.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: Because that is that is a tough job, or at least it can be a tough job.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting because when I'm the writer on a project, I've got my writing filter on and not my editor filter.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: So I'm always eager for that editor to tell me as a writer or me as part of a writing team how we can improve a book.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Boy, I just I really do think editors make everything better.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, like serving writers in that way.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: Editors um change the world.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, you make us you make the rest of us look a lot better, which I appreciate.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been a blast.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for sharing your wisdom uh here on the Profitable Rider Podcast and uh looking forward to our next conversation.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: All right, Ken, thank you so much.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: This has been fun.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Hey, my friend, thanks so much for joining me for another episode of the Profitable Rider Podcast.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: As always, I really appreciate you taking time to listen, and I'm looking forward to the next episode, which features a conversation with author Catherine Bramkamp on exploring the creative process.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: Looking forward to that episode so much, and I'll see you then.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: Before we go, I want to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, The Word Wizard.
41:54
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42:00
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42:09
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42:22
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42:27
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42:32
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