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What Your Child's Nervous System Is Trying to Tell You (And Yours, Too) · Self-Schooled

• Heather DiNino (she/they): Welcome to Self-Schooled, a podcast where we explore how to understand our children and ourselves more clearly. I'm Heather, parent, educator, and micro school founder. And every week we talk to someone who gives us a different lens for understanding what it means to be human and parent other humans. Because the more we understand, the more connected we feel to the people who matter most. And the more confidently we can parent and find our family's own path. This is the education that actually matters. Let's dive in together. Hello everyone. Welcome to Self-Schooled. I am so thrilled to have one of my favorite people in the world, in the in the world of early education and nervous systems, Alyssa Blask-Campbell. She is the CEO and founder of Seed and Sew. A globally recognized expert in emotional development, which let's be honest, we know we all need so much more of in this world. She co-created and researched the collaborative emotion processing method, which completely transforms how adults are able to support children's emotions. And as if that was not enough, she's also a New York Times best-selling co-author of two books: Tiny Humans Big Emotions and Big Kids Bigger Feelings. She's the host of Voices of Your Village podcast and has a whole team of multidisciplinary folks who support schools, childcare programs, families worldwide. So she is busy to say the least, and we're so grateful for her time here with us at Self-Schooled. So welcome, Alyssa. Alyssa: Thank you. I'm excited to be here with you. Heather DiNino (she/they): I'm just so grateful for you and your work because it feels like you are able to explain things in a way that is accessible to folks who maybe didn't go to parenting school if there is such a thing. Alyssa: Sure. Wouldn't it be so nice if there was such a thing? I'm like, please tell me what to do with these humans. They're it turns out they're all different. Heather DiNino (she/they): I always turns out they're all different. I used to joke that they don't come with a manual, but I'm like, well there there can't even be one because they're different every day. So even Alyssa: Yes, I birthed two very different humans. Heather DiNino (she/they): so different. And who they were when they were born is so different than who they are Alyssa: Mm. Heather DiNino (she/they): now. And every every day or every minute, especially for our neurospacey ones. So first Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): before we dive into some of the really deep stuff, how did you even get into this work? Like what got you here? Alyssa: Yeah, well I I definitely wasn't raised in this, like in an emotionally intelligent household. I feel like I was raised like so many of us were. I'm born in the eighties, raised in the nineties, and I found myself in like my early twenties. I was teaching preschool and I was supposed to be doing this like social emotional curriculum. I'm going to like teach these kids these things and realize like I don't have these tools. I'm supposed to teach them coping strategies and how to calm their body and I'm actively not doing that. And so that was like Kickstarter for me. I was like, that yeah, this would be cool to know. sounds helpful. And so that just started my journey in there of like, okay, if I'm gonna teach this, I gotta learn about it. And as I started learning, then it led me eventually to a school where this resource-rich school in the Boston area that I taught at, and I was an infant toddler teacher. And my colleague Lauren Stauble was in preschool pre-K and she was like, Hey, I feel like we're doing something different. And so we started like video lessoning each other and meeting and going through those and seeing like what was it? And what we realized was that So often what we were being taught as teachers was about social development, how to be kind, how to exist in a group setting, how to sit in circle, how to share, how to take turns. It was really about social development and what we knew to be true was that you can't do that without emotional development. Like, what does it look like to learn how your body works and how to be in your body and move through different feelings and parts of the day in your body so that you can show up and be in this social development part, to be able to connect with humans around you and be kind. And that led us down a lovely journey where we ended up creating the collaborative emotion processing method, which really heavily focused It's focuses on us as the adults because man, we can you can read a book or listen to the podcast or scroll social and it sounds great. I'm like, yeah, totally, I'm gonna do that with my kid. And then when they slap you across the face or they throw something or they hurt their sibling, now I want to like fight a three-year-old, and so we really had to dive into the us part of this, the like adult part of this, so that I'm because it sounds absurd, like I want to fight a three-year-old, but it's really how it feels in the moment. I'm like, you want to. play this game, I've played it longer than you. And I would go into that power over. And so really learning how to do this for ourselves was such a huge part of the step method. And then we research that across the US and it's what our work's really, really based on. We get real nerdy with y'all in that process. Heather DiNino (she/they): Listen, nerdy is good because it means you have passion. I I think Alyssa: Yes. Heather DiNino (she/they): every I actually think every human is born nerdy. I think we're born like Alyssa: I love it. Heather DiNino (she/they): super, super curious and we just have to find the thing that makes that kid nerdy and then dive into it, right? Alyssa: Mhm. I love that. Yeah, I love that perspective. Heather DiNino (she/they): So I I there's so much in what you said, but I think something that stood out to me, because this was my experience when I was teaching, but with older kids, was the the social piece was being really Alyssa: huh. Heather DiNino (she/they): forced and coerced. but it was all about others and Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): not about ourselves. So like you used the words social and emotional, which is often like SEL is put together, and it's like it's Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): so different because And and in my work working with highly sensitive kids and neurodiverse kids, and it's it's often, well, you should do this to make others feel comfortable. And it's like, Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): geez, what about ourselves? what about Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): this little human? And what how how can we help them actually feel comfortable before they're worrying about making other people feel comfortable? Alyssa: A hundred percent. And even connecting to them. So I have two kids and one's autistic and one's neurotypical. My autistic child, we had to do a lot of like hand over hand scaffolding around things like saying please or saying thank you or saying I'm sorry. And I we had to talk about how inside your body that doesn't feel important to you. That when somebody talks to you, if they say, can I have that water? Can you pass that over to me? And they don't say please, for you, that feels okay that they didn't say please. And for other people, that doesn't always feel okay. That sometimes when you say, can you please pass that water for the other person inside their body it feels kind and calm and softened and it feels like they can we call it shoulders down, like they can be in a shoulders down space where they're not tense and up. And that this part of like being able to see outside of your own body is most effective when you can first see inside your own body. So when we know how do things feel for you inside your body, then we can start to look at, yeah, your experience of that is different. Actually just the other day he was putting on shoes and it had like a velcro strap and I opened the velcro and he was like, he cringed. And I said, you don't like the sound of Velcro? And he said, nobody likes the sound of Velcro. And I said, you know how you really like to go on the swings or spin in that chair in our living room that spins around. What happens to me if I spin in that chair? He's like, You get sick. And I was like, That's right, because your body likes to spin, but for my body it makes me feel sick. Your body doesn't like the sound of Velcro, but that sound actually for my body feels okay. And we do a lot of this, of just talking about his own or their own both my children, their own experience and what's happening inside for them and how that's unique to them. That's not how the rest of the world is necessarily experiencing the world. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. we all experience the world differently. And sometimes the messages they're getting don't match that experience that they're having. Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): or if they I don't know if this has been your experience as a parent, but I'm certain it has been as an educator, at some point they're being told that their their response is different, but less than. So like Alyssa: totally. Heather DiNino (she/they): their response, yeah, you do feel it different in your body, but let's change that. Like let's Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): you're the one that needs to change, not the environment, right? Like so that's yeah. how do you start those conversations or when do you start those conversations about how things feel in a body if it's that that might not be natural to all kids. Alyssa: yeah, it's never too early and it's never too late. So I w we work in schools, predominantly we're in childcare and family child care homes and elementary middle schools. And I was at one of our schools that has high needs. population, and I got this little guy I was sitting down and chatting with and he's having a tough time at school. He's in fifth grade. And I'm sitting down and I'm chatting with him and he was telling me all these things that he had. Like he could ask for a break, he could squeeze this thing, he could talk to the teacher, all these coping tools that they'd built in for him. And like spoiler alert, he's not using any of them in the moment, right? Like he's I'm having a hard feeling, and then I squeeze this thing and then I move through it. He's not tapping into any of them. Because you can't regulate what you're not aware of. And so I It was chatting with him about what were the things that felt really hard at school. And all of his stories really came back to when he felt embarrassed or left out. And so I named that. I was like, yeah, it I also hate that feeling of feeling embarrassed or left out. It does not feel good for me. And I said, What does it feel like in your body when you feel embarrassed or left out? He was like, What do you mean? I said, You know when you get that pee feeling when you have to go to the bathroom so you don't pee your pants at school or so when you're hungry, your belly grumbles and lets you know that you need some food? I said, What does it feel like in your body when you feel embarrassed or feel left out? And he goes, Actually I don't know. And I said, okay, well it makes sense that you don't know when it's time to squeeze that thing or ask for help or take space. If you don't know what it feels like when you're feeling that that's gonna be the first step before you say, no, here's that feeling again. Now I have to do this next thing. Just like when you feel the pee feeling, you know I've gotta ask to go to the bathroom. And he goes, Well, can you teach me? And I was like, Totally, bud. This is that's what I get to do for my job. And he was that he had a lot of questions about my job. And but when we look at this, it's like, it's never too late. It's also never too early. You can start to have these conversations with babies where when they're crying, I'm gonna say, I see that you have tears coming down your face and your hands are all scrunched up. Come on over here, babe, I'll give you a snuggle. And I'm just narrating my day with them. It's truly never too early and then never too late. We got a lot of adults we're doing this work with. In fact, that's the largest population we're working with right now is teaching adults how to build their own self awareness because then they're showing up with kids. You know, it's me in the classroom where I want to fight a three year old that if we're not doing this work as adults, then we can't teach it to other humans. And so it's it's never too early and it's never too late. And it might feel awkward at first and that's okay. Because anytime we're doing something new, it's gonna feel a little funky. And that doesn't mean that it's wrong. or that you're not doing it right or that it's not authentic. It just means it's new. And your brain and body are like, mm, this doesn't feel like me. And you're like, totally. The like me part that is reacting and losing my cool and yelling, that's the part that we're trying to work on. We're gonna help that part. And it's not gonna feel like you at the very beginning. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. So what does it feel like to you when you get that embarrassed or left out feeling? Where do you feel that in your body, or how does that feel? Alyssa: Yeah, I my son actually describes this very well for me where he says when if for him it's usually sadness where he feels like a turtle. He wants to like hide inside of a shell. Heather DiNino (she/they): I I have my son, my younger son, we wrote we gave him a hat and wrote private on it so that when he 'cause Alyssa: Mm. Heather DiNino (she/they): he needs to turtle for sure. and when he's wearing the hat, his peers also know. Because it's really easy to get adults on board with this kind of stuff. It's a l it can be a little trickier for kids to understand what other kids need, right? So the privacy Alyssa: Yes. Heather DiNino (she/they): hat worked really well for us and for him to be able to send that message clearly to others of what he needed. and the reason I was asking you about what that feels in your body is because it's hard to teach what you don't know. yourself. So it sounds Alyssa: Mm mm. Totally. Heather DiNino (she/they): like this is what you've been discovering in your work of starting as a teacher and doing all this research and this work and then noticing like, wait, I don't actually know if I can teach that because I'm not like, I want to fight a three-year-old. So how do I like do that? So how did you can you talk Alyssa: Yes. Heather DiNino (she/they): a little more about your journey on your own emotional regulation journey? Alyssa: Yeah, it's an ongoing journey. this morning on the way to drop my kids off at school. I gosh. Wouldn't that be so nice? Heather DiNino (she/they): You mean there's no finish line? Alyssa: This morning on the way to drop the kids off at school, I yelled in the car, right? And then had to like say, All right, I'm gonna pause. Y'all who gets to we do we I drive like a basically a mini school bus of kids to school from our neighborhood. And we were They have a playlist of each of them has a favorite song on the playlist. And I was like, who's up next for the song? And do you want to do it max volume? Which for us is like it's raging. And that's really helpful for me, where I can kind of drown out the rest of the sound in the car. And we get to choose the sound that we're listening to and just dance. And so after I yelled, I was like, all right, who has the next song? Can we do it at max volume so that I can calm my body? And then we're gonna come back to this after this song's done. And We did, we raged to Zootopia Zoo. Thank you, Shakira. At max volume in the car, we got to dance and sing, and I didn't have to hear anyone yelling at each other in the backseat. And then we got to come back and then I could so all this to say that it is a freaking journey. and you're not gonna tomorrow be like, Wow, I'm calm and regulated all the time. It's not how it is to be a human on planet Earth. and I will say I have more awareness now of when it's building. My son calls this the volcano, as it's building up before it explodes. And I've more awareness of that than I ever did before and sometimes can like intercept before I'm exploding. And I definitely have more tools for like right after I've exploded, instead of continuing to then lose my crap in the car with the kids, can say like, all right I need a little reset. Here's what I know is helpful for me. Does this work for the car? Let's rock. And if people were like, no, that doesn't work, I would say, okay, I'm gonna pop in my AirPods, I'm gonna listen to one song, and then I'm gonna come back to y'all. so just having those things at my disposal that I've learned about myself. But this kick started with me setting a series of alarms. on my phone, it would be 918, 11, 12, 1224, always even numbers, obviously. And when it went off, I would just like notice how I was feeling, right? So just like and I would say it out loud, like, my hands are in fists or I feel a little like clammy or a little sweaty. I wonder what's going on. And I would just take a deep breath and go right back into whatever I was doing. I just say it out loud. Sometimes they'd be like, wow, I feel really focused right now. And I just then go right back into what I was doing. So practicing that self-awareness of noticing what's happening in my body. You're not just gonna in a hard moment have that skill set. And so the series of alarms for me was like, if I don't set them, I'm not gonna carve out that time in my day. So having the series of alarms go off at all different times of the day was a really good practice for me. And then it just ended up being this bonus of whoever I was around also experienced that. And so my kids or in teaching, the kids that I was teaching, whoever I was around really started to notice it. And then they would sometimes do it. the kids in my classroom would say, Miss Alyssa, my heart's beating fast too. And I'm like, Yeah, Heather DiNino (she/they): Mm. Alyssa: wow, what do you think's going on? And then we could w say, like, what helps your heart slow down? sometimes I'd ask, is this a time we want our heart beating fast? Right? if you're gonna go run around and play, you want your heart rate up. It's not always appropriate to like be in a calm state Heather DiNino (she/they): Right. Alyssa: and So we'd ask that, is this a time that we want our heart rate up? Did we just have a dance party? That makes sense. And then if it's not a time, then say, how do you think we could slow our hearts down? What should we try? And then you're getting to practice this with them and all in, it takes about 60 seconds. And those Heather DiNino (she/they): Mm. Alyssa: reps really help you then tune into what's happening in your body in those hard moments. It's it's practice like going to the gym and lifting weights and building that muscle that then you have to use when you're trying to lift something heavy. You're not gonna be able to lift that heavy thing if you haven't built that muscle up. And same thing with self-awareness. So that was really, really crucial for the start of my journey and then learning how my unique nervous system works, which we can dive into because that was probably the biggest game changer in all this for me. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): a hundred percent we need to dive into the nervous system stuff. And before we jump in, I wanna notice that you talked a lot about rep more reps, more cha more opportunities. It's not Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): about, because I know we are parents, we do not have time always to sit and journal for an hour about our feelings. And it's not about that. That's not, and and I also noticed that you were talking about setting an alarm, noticing what you're feeling. It's feelings, it's what what is your body doing? that moment how is your body feeling i think a lot of times folks hear feelings and they're like i don't know i'm frustrated i'm busy i'm stressed right like and it's it's not it's yes exactly and it's it's Alyssa: Yeah, they think of emotions. Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): actual physical feelings we're trying to connect to our body fists clenched shoulders up heart beating fast clammy like what are these things and that is super helpful to tune into so i love that you pointed that out You don't need an hour. You don't need to dive deep into therapy. Alyssa: Yeah. No, I don't have an hour. If we needed an hour, I'm screwed, right? I don't have an hour. It's it the micro moments are so much more effective. I this morning I dropped the kids off at school and did a workout and then came right into this. And that workout is gonna help build some muscle in my body and it's gonna support my regulation throughout this, where I can then sit still and do the podcast. It's not going to make a huge difference for me at 5 p.m. tonight when we're at dinner and things are nutty. What's more effective for my regulation throughout the day are micro moments where I'm going to the bathroom and instead of like filling my grocery order up or you know s signing a kid up for a thing while I'm going to the bathroom, being able to pause and do nothing for 60 seconds and just like breathe and bring my shoulders down and having these little mini moments where I drop the kids off at school and instead of jumping right on a work call, I say like, yeah, I'm gonna choose my own music on this drive home. I'm gonna rage for this eight minute drive. We're gonna listen to the chicks. We're gonna sing not ready to make nice. We're gonna get after it. And then I'm gonna go start my work day. And that drive back is so restorative then for me. I'm not gonna turn on the news. I'm not going it's really looking at like these little moments that add up. throughout the day, way more important than yeah, I spent an hour journaling when it comes to nervous system rig. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. So let's talk about nervous system. Like what in the world what Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): just like what is the nervous system? Alyssa: What does it mean? Yeah. when we're talking about the nervous system, we really are focused on nine senses. We often hear of those first five: sight, sound, taste, touch, smell. And there are four others that are super crucial. So we have our interceptive sense. This is the one inside that lets us know, like, what are we feeling in there? Like Am I hungry? Am I tired? Do I have to go to the bathroom? Am I hot? Am I cold? Am I is my heart beating fast? Am I feeling overwhelmed or frustrated? Like anything kind of happening inside is your introspective. And introsceptive-sensitive humans, they're very aware, they're really attuned to what's happening inside. And so it can feel like the volumes turned up. We have a million terms for this at this point. Highly sensitive, deeply feeling, big feelers. We're really looking off. Where that volume is turned up on what they experience inside. They are often labeled as like dramatic and it feels to the outside world like The thing that they are so upset about is just a little deal, not a big deal. In fact, could die on that hill that if I could get rid of one phrase right now that's really up there of like, is this a big deal or a little deal? I'm like, to whom? That's so condescending and truly not helpful. right now they're saying, I feel something. We just gotta jump on board with that. and when we're looking at introspective folks who are not introspective sensitive, they might miss those internal. cues. So this is me. I'm not interceptive sensitive. And so if I don't have lunch On my calendar, I'll forget to eat lunch, especially if I get in a flow with work. I miss those internal cues. And then all of a sudden I have a migraine or I'm hangry because I forgot to eat lunch that day. And an interceptive sensitive person would be like, there's not a world in which I could forget to eat. That I notice that feeling and I can't unfeel it. It gets so big. so when we're looking at at these, it's this spectrum of we look at it as a minus two to plus two, minus two being. the most attuned, the most sensitive to that stimuli, and the plus two being the most seeking, meaning the least attuned. You might need more support or more of that stimuli. and then we've got our vestibular sense. This is located in our inner ear. It's responsible for your movement and balance, keeps you up, right? And this is you you'll get this input through like spinning or dipping upside down or swinging, really moving the plane of your head. My son is vestibular sent or seeking, so he loves to spin. We've got a swivel chair in my living room. My husband also vestibular seeking, he sits in an office chair that spins. I'm vestibular sensitive. My office chair does not move on purpose that for me, if I'm in that spinny chair throughout the day, I actually start to get nauseous. I really notice that input. I'm so attuned to it, I'm so sensitive to it, that if there's too much of it, it's overwhelming for my body. I'm not your gal for like a roller coaster ride. That's dad's job. It's not fun for me because it makes me all throw up. We've got our proprioceptive sense. This is the one that lets us know where our body ends and something else begins. Actually my van has this feature where when you're driving in it if you get close to something, it's like beep beep beep and then as you get closer it's like beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep 'cause it wants you to know you're about to bump into something. That is our proprioceptive sense in our bodies, located in our muscles and joints, and it says like beep beep beep when you're getting close to something. And for all of us this works a bit differently. My son is proprioceptive sensitive, so that beep beep beep goes off pretty early. He will almost never bump into something around him because that signal goes off pretty early for him. He's also a kid with a bigger space bubble. He's like, you're close enough, thank you so much. is not gonna be here for like snuggling up, climbing all over you. That's not his jam. I am per perceptive seeking. My beep beep beep does not go off until I'm like bumping it. I always have bumps and bruises on my legs from like bumping into my bed. That thing isn't moving. It's in the same place all the time. But I run into that sucker all the time because I have a hard time gauging where does my body end and something else begins. And in kids this can look like a bull in a china shop where they're just plowing through stuff. It can look like pushing too hard or hugging too tight or going to sit next to somebody and you sit on them. And when we're looking at how to support that, we want to get more proprietive input in throughout the day. So it really turns that alarm system on because otherwise they're gonna look for it in other ways. So we do this kind of like CrossFit for kids. I'm like, how do we add weight to their world? Have them lift in heavy things. My propriceptive seeking kiddo, my daughter, she wears her backpack into school every day because that's really regulating for her. For my son, he can wear his backpack in, but it actually throughout the day will drain. Him more to have more proprioceptive input. For her, she's my urgent care kid. She's like climbing on everything all the time. She's jumping off stuff. She's climbing on my body. She would climb back inside the womb if she could. Like, there's not enough touch for her. And she and I share that though, right? Like, I'm also perproceptive seeking. So for me, we're a sensory match that works. I love to have her on my lap, I love to have her on my body, and my husband is very similar to myself. Son is propriep sensitive. So when she's like, Daddy, can I sit in your lap at dinner? He's like, I would love to sit next to you and I can hold your hand. But it's gonna drain him if she's in his lap. They know, like, mom's the gal if you want to climb inside her lap. Because I'm restored by that. And then the last one is our neurosceptive sense. This is what I call our spidey sense. It lets us know if we're in danger or if there's safety around us. And it does this by reading all the nonverbal cues. that feeling if you walk into a room and two people have been in conflict and they stop fighting, but you can like feel that tension in this space. It's your neurosceptive sense at work. It reads tone and body language and facial expression. And for our kiddos, these are kids who are really aware of a tone shift. They're really gonna notice I I had a little guy when I was teaching preschool pre-K who would say, Miss Alyssa, I can't talk to you with that face on. And it was whenever I was like frustrated or something, but I'm trying to be calm and trying to say the kind thing, but inside I'm not calm. And Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Alyssa: he can read that, he can feel that. Miss Alyssa, I can't talk to you with that face on. And he was neuroceptive. sensitive. He notices all those things. Kids who are not neurosceptive sensitive, they might miss a lot of those social cues. We might have to scaffold for them like, that person's body pulled away or their face changed. It looked like they didn't like that. Or they stopped laughing. They don't think that that's funny anymore. And so for them they might need more scaffolding. For our neurosceptive sensitive kiddos, they are often it can It can require more work for them to access regulation when other people are dysregulated. Because they're so hyper-aware of other people's dysregulation. They can be what we call a domino. We're like somebody else gets dysregulated and they're a domino that falls. And now they're also dysregulated. So that's some of our greatest work with them, especially as they get older. We start to see this really come in hot around third, fourth grade, where our neurosceptive sensitive kids are inclusion and belonging becomes really important. In around that time, really well researched and supported. in terms of why, thank you, Brene, for that research. Brene Brown, not on a first name basis. and she she gave us some really good research that shows life goals. I'd die. Heather DiNino (she/they): Life goals. Alyssa: and when we're looking at that though, like once inclusion and belonging starts to really matter, where they start to see their identity, not just who am I at home, but who am I in the world, it usually happens Around third fourth grade, we start to see our neurosceptive sensitive kids can start to have a they they need a lot of teaching and scaffolding around how they can exist in a world where they're gonna be reading everybody else's expressions and making up their own story about what they think that means. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Alyssa: yeah, but so for all nine of these senses, we're sensitive to some and then we're seeking others. And what we're sensitive to, it's a superpower, we're really attuned to that information. And And it can be really overwhelming that if you are, you know, I'm sound sensitive, which means I can notice all the sounds. When I'm in a space, they say mom once, I hear it. My husband not sound sensitive. I'm like, excuse me, they've said dad three times. Are you here? And he just didn't he didn't hear it. He's not as attuned to that as I am. But also when my son he's very into ambulances right now, he's like, Woo, woo. And my daughter is she doesn't stop talking for the minute she wakes up to the minute she goes to sleep. And then you add in the like, Mom, mom, watch this, mom, mom, mom. Now with all these competing sounds, I wanna chuck something out a window. Like it can be really overwhelming as well. And then what we're seeking is what we need more of throughout the day. And that usually is what's gonna bring regulation to us and and help support our regulation. all right, I just threw so much nerdy information at you. Let me pause. Heather DiNino (she/they): It's incredible. It's absolutely incredible and so valuable. And I just know parents listening to this are already identifying with their kid on some level of what you said, whether they are, yeah, the bull in the china shop, or Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): that that's why they are running into me, barreling into my body for a hug instead of just like, why can't you just hug me? Like you're not gonna choke me. Right. Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): and and it's really helpful. You mentioned this like plus two, minus two. So is that Alyssa: Mm. Heather DiNino (she/they): plus two seeking or s I'm assuming one is seeking and one is sensitive. Okay. Okay. Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's that's right. Plus two is seeking. Minus two is sensitive. And then just the we look at that as a spectrum. that you're gonna fall for all nine senses between minus two and plus two. And we worked with a group of OTs to put together a free questionnaire for folks that helps you identify. You can take it for any age, starting in infancy, up through adults, and it you can take it also as many times as you want. If you're like, I want it for my whole fam. Go to town and you can see what are people sensitive to, what are they seeking, and it really helps us know what's draining someone throughout the day. And then Heather DiNino (she/they): Mm-hmm. Alyssa: What recharges them? sometimes you can't tweak the environment, right? So I just had a meeting with my child's school and we were talking about like given his profile, what's available? You I can't make the entire class be quiet because he's sound sensitive or stop standing and moving and walking around because he's visually sensitive. We can't control those things. So what is in my control? Well he could access noise canceling support, whether it's earplugs or headphones. Or we can also look at how do we recharge throughout the day. So sometimes we're gonna say, how do we accommodate so that the sensitivity isn't as draining? This could also, with my tactily sensitive kiddo, I will turn her socks inside out so that the ridge on the sock isn't rubbing against her. And that's just like giving her a little, it's it's draining her still to wear socks, but it's draining her less because now there isn't. A ridge on her toes. So sometimes we're looking at that for accommodations. Sometimes I'm saying, how do we recharge? So for him in school, I was yeah, I can't make everyone around and be quiet. I can't change the visual input. What I can do is say, hey, we have this spinny seat that he uses at home. Could I bring it in? It fits right on his chair. And he could get a little recharge throughout the day, being able to get some vestibular input in. And that's like plugging in the phone and charging the battery a little bit. I I look at this, if we look at the phone, actually if you are saying from from the minute you unplug a phone it starts to drain just by existing even if you don't touch it eventually you're gonna go to turn that thing on and it's gonna be dead same with us that the minute we wake up we start to drain there are things around us there's stimuli around us that's starting to drain us Now, there are things that will drain us faster. If my kids are doing the ambulance sound and giving a dissertation and then bickering and whining and whatever, that's gonna drain me faster than if I'm in a quiet household where nobody's whining at me and all that jazz. Same with our phone, where if I send a text, it's gonna drain the phone a little bit. If I stream a video, it's gonna drain the phone faster. And so we're looking at like, how do we drain thing ourselves a little slower. And then also, how do we plug that sucker back in and recharge it? And that's where we're looking at for me, proprioceptive input moving my body is a recharge for me. So after I had just a really tough drop-off this morning, I was like, all right, I'm gonna get a 20-minute workout in before I go sit for this podcast because I just had a huge drain on the school ride this morning. And we're gonna recharge that battery a little bit. And so it's a it it's a both and. It's how do we drain slower and also how do we recharge throughout the day. Heather DiNino (she/they): It's a both ends. And I'm going back to your story about the kid at school that's having a hard time and you can't regulate what you can't what you're not aware of, right? Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): So just being aware of it is the first step before we can even Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): think about what are we doing for it. Alyssa: That's why we built the questionnaire. Heather DiNino (she/they): a good place to start. Alyssa: That's why we built Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Alyssa: it. And and we won't work with school, elementary or middle school, unless they use the questionnaire. Because for us it is then we're just in that same cycle of like we don't actually know what this kid needs and we're gonna be guessing at it. And we know that we can learn how this kid's nervous system works and then be able to have really specific tools and accommodations and supports for them. Heather DiNino (she/they): okay so we take the quiz and we're aware of like our sensory needs and And and now what? Because I would imagine a lot of adults are taken I know I've taken it as an adult and I'm like, ooh, that makes sense. Right? So okay, we take it and now Alyssa: Yeah. Sure. Heather DiNino (she/they): what? Alyssa: Yeah. And now you get to know what is going to be draining me throughout the day and then what's going to recharge me. And then you get to build a a day to day in how you live your days is how you live your life. So you get to build a life that supports your nervous system. And when we are looking at At doing that, it's it's not one size fits all. And so my day-to-day structure and what works for supporting my nervous system is different than my husband. And after we took our questionnaires and we could see, like, okay, here's what drains you, here's what drains me, here's what recharges me, here's what recharges you. What do we each need in our day-to-day? And then we brought in the kids. Like, how do we then build this in in our family structure? What does it look like at work? What does it look like then when we go on vacation in our environments different, our day-to-day is different. What are you gonna need? Right? then it becomes transferable after you can figure out what does it look like in your day-to-day space at home. Then you can say, all right, in these other spaces and these other instances, what does this look like? And and how do I support it? And then in those hard moments, we know what does this kid or what does this person need that when my son, who is largely sensory sensitive, seeking almost nothing, vestibular seeking and tactile seeking in a middle of the road on on neurosception everything else he's sensitive to and highly sensitive to when he's having a hard time I don't want to add more I wanna add less and so we are going to move him into a room where it's calm and quiet. I'm not gonna talk to him. I'm not gonna hug him I'm not gonna put my hand on him I'm not gonna even validate his feelings. I'm just gonna be like, I'm here buddy, we're gonna figure this out. And then I'm gonna shut up, which is my hardest part because I can feel silence like it's nobody's business. And for my daughter, who is sensory seeking predominantly, she loves to hear me tell she's like, validate my experience. Tell me about a time this happened to you. I've made up seven billion stories about things that have happened to me. And she wants to be on my body, she wants a hug, she wants to crawl back inside that womb. And so when you look at her. questionnaire, that already. You don't have to get to know her to know that when she's melting down, here's what she's gonna need. She's gonna need more, not less. So she's gonna need me to be in her space. She's gonna need touch. She's gonna need talking. She might even jump around or I might say like, my gosh, let's jump on the trampoline while we're figuring this out. She needs more when he needs less. And that's all very clear in their questionnaire results. So not just how do we we look at this as proactive versus reactive and we're gonna need both. there's not a world in which you're gonna be proactive to the point of okay, now I just live in a regulated brain and body all the time. Not how it is to be a human on planet Earth. You're gonna cycle in and out of regulation and dysregulation, and this lets us know how to have the capacity to access regulation more throughout the day and the self-control to tap into strategies when we're in a dysregulated state to say, I also know what works for me, and I'm gonna tap into that. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Now what about when there's a mismatch of, for example, right? You're you're s yeah, right. I I Alyssa: Welcome to my household. Heather DiNino (she/they): think welcome to every household, truly. and I think our kids are our greatest teachers and I think that that's by Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): design. So I I do think often, in the moment, I try to be like, Okay, thank you for teaching me this lesson of like patience and actually not knowing what to do because I'm a total control freak that always wants to Alyssa: Yes. Heather DiNino (she/they): do the right thing and have the right answer, right? So I'm like, Thank Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): you to kids who teach me that that is actually not possible. But if you have, right, your son doesn't want to be talked to, but you like really want to talk, or even harder, because as adults, sometimes we can delay our own needs. We often delay them too much. But Alyssa: Mm. Heather DiNino (she/they): what about like, okay, your daughter is like needing to talk so much and he needs like to not, they must Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): really butt heads at that moment, at those moments. Or like all the time, siblings, right? Alyssa: and other moments. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): What do you do when there's a mismatch, right? Because she's like, I Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): need to talk and I need to hear words. And he's like, I need total quiet. what do you do? Alyssa: Yeah. So w when they're not separable, right? Like we're in the car and I can't separate them into different spaces, that's gonna be a different answer than if I can. If I can, if we're at home or we're in a spot where I can say, We are gonna figure this out, guys, I'm going to pop you in here to my son. Like You can pop in your room, you can play with Legos, you can play with Night Tales, or he'll usually choose to snuggle our dog, who does not talk to him at all, which is his dream. And he'll go do that. And I'll Why don't you you can go snuggle with Kroz and I'm gonna go chat with her and then we're gonna come back together. We're gonna figure this out. And I will say, like, that's only effective because we've had conversations outside the moment where In a calm moment, I will say, you know what I've really realized is that, you know, when you're feeling really frustrated or overwhelmed, and she gets bigger and louder, and she's yelling, and she's climbing on your body, she's in your space, and then your volcano starts to explode. When your volcano's exploding, you want it to be quiet and calm, and she wants louder and busier. I wonder if when that's happening, it would be helpful for you to take some space so that I can give her her louder and busier and it doesn't hurt your ears or your body. So we've had those conversations outside the moment to then bring into the moment, which is super crucial. You don't build new tools in the moment. You call in the tools you have in the moment. And so we'll have those conversations and then in the moment, if I can separate them, I will. If I can't, I'll say, whoa, and I'll get really big with her and It's gonna add stim for him for a minute, but when I can get big with her, it draws her in and she's like, Okay, we're in this big together. So my voice will get loud and I'll be like, Whoa. Not in a like yelling, I'm mad at you, but like I'm joining your energy. And then I will pull it down. So I'll be like, Whoa! And then I'll start to whisper and I'll be like, my goodness. It just got so loud in the car. Whew. I want to help us figure this out. Can you play a game with me real quick before we figure this out? I was just in my brain, I was counting all the white cars that I could find, and I was trying to see if I could find ten white cars. Can you count that with me? Let's see, do you see any white cars out there? And so because I cannot separate them, I'm focused on how do I bring her down, which is gonna give his brain and body a break. And it it looks like and often she's she's the one who's poking the bear, right? And so for a lot of people it can look like I'm giving attention to the human who Heather DiNino (she/they): P Alyssa: was just driving everybody else bonkers. And what we know to be true about attention is that it's the root of it is often connection. And so if she's seeking connection, if I ignore her, it's gonna get bigger because she's gonna still need connection. If I give her that attention and connection, usually it pulls it down. And then I can teach her outside the moment. You know what I've noticed? When we're driving in the car and your brother's focused on on doing something, he's been very into writing lately. And so if he's writing in his book and you feel bored or you want somebody to notice you. I've noticed that you've been doing things like reaching over and kicking at his body or saying teasing words to him. And does it seem like he wants to connect with you when you do that? And she'll be like, no. I'm like, yeah, if you want to connect, you could say, hey buddy, what are you drawing back there? Or you could say, Hey, wanna play a game. And if he doesn't want to, then you could ask Mom, Mom, will you play a game with me? And we could play a game together. But I'm having that conversation with her outside the moment. In the moment, I'm gonna give her attention and connection. But I'm gonna try and pull her down. with that. So I get big and then I'll play like a whisper game or I pull her into and I'm making something up. I've been counting white cars. No, I haven't. I'm just making that up right now, right? I'm getting Heather DiNino (she/they): Ha ha ha ha. Alyssa: her brain to focus on something else for a minute. And Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Alyssa: to her for her to receive the dopamine of like we're connecting. We're doing this thing together. And that gives him then inherently a break. Heather DiNino (she/they): Something you said is the hill that I will die on, which is that kids' needs need to be met and they deserve to be met. And so she her exhibiting a need is no different than a need of being fed, right? Like it Alyssa: Food. Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): is so, so like she, I think it's really shifting the way we're seeing behavior too. because I just It is a frustration for me when parents say, Well, but I give if I give in, aren't I just teaching them they'll always get what they want? And it's like Well, do you feed yourself when you're hungry? Because that is Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): a way that we have to build trust with our body and food to remind our body that we will take care of you and we will feed you when you're hungry. And so aren't we building trust with our kids? and trust to me is when actions meet words. And so if we're telling our kids that we will take care of you and we will keep you safe and we will love you unconditionally, our actions have to match that. And no, we're not perfect. We are, we are imperfect Alyssa: Totally. Heather DiNino (she/they): humans on perfect on purpose. But I just think that need is so beautiful. The way you described, well, if I don't give that to her, she will continue needing it. That doesn't just go away. Unless they which is a whole other thing. Alyssa: Yeah, honestly, part of it's selfish. if I'm like, if I really wanna make this stop, I gotta meet that need. And that's self-serving at the same time. Like, I do wanna make this stop. And this is Heather DiNino (she/they): We yeah. Alyssa: the fastest way to make this stop is to meet that need. I I I I also it makes a ton of sense to me for folks to if you grew up in a household like I did where sensory needs were seen as needs. You need a roof over your head, you need To have food, you need a place to sleep. we're gonna meet those sensory needs. You gotta move your body, can't lay still all the time. But connection needs, emotional needs were seen as wants. And so if you grew up in a household like I did, that doesn't just like change when you get older and you hear about this on a podcast, you read it in a book. It takes practice and in the moment, for a long time, and still sometimes, when there's connection need that's showing up. My initial reaction is that it feels like needy or high maintenance and annoying. And I'm like, ugh, I don't want to give attention to this kid because they're being really annoying right now. And I don't want to feed into that. Like that will come up for me originally most of the time. One of the things that Adam Grant wrote in one of his books that I have continued to carry with me is that you're you're not responsible for your initial reaction. So that first thing that comes up, that first bias from our childhood, where I open my mouth and my mom comes out, sort of thing, when that comes up, I'm not re I'm not responsible for that. That I inherited from my childhood. What I am responsible for is what I do next, my secondary response. And that's what I've had to really work at to build the awareness of like, I don't wanna pay attention to her right now because it feels needy. And when that happened in my childhood, that's what I learned was that if you're being needy or high maintenance, that's a bad thing. That having needs was not seen as something that was okay. It was seen as a negative. And so it makes sense that that's what's coming up for me in this moment. And I got some work to do around that. And right now in front front of me, I've got a kid with needs and what do I want to teach her? I wanna Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah. Yeah. Alyssa: teach her that she's allowed to have needs and furthermore she's allowed to advocate for them. Heather DiNino (she/they): Yes. And that, with everything going on in the world right now, is Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): I cannot think of anything more important that we could be teaching young people. and adults actually. W many adults, Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heather DiNino (she/they): myself included, still need to work on knowing our needs and advocating for ourselves. Alyssa: A hundred percent. I we look at we have a generation of humans who feel like if they ask for help they're failing. And I want my kids to know they're allowed to ask for help and that it doesn't mean that you're failing. In fact that's how we exist as humans on planet Earth. Whether it's emotional help Heather DiNino (she/they): Yeah, and I do think Alyssa: or physical help, doesn't matter. Heather DiNino (she/they): Alyssa, we gotta wrap up. I am so grateful for your work. And so grateful for your time today, obviously being on the podcast, but just the work that you're doing is out there in the world. And I can't wait for people to take the questionnaire and have those aha moments about themselves. We deserve that. Alyssa: Yeah. We do. We do deserve to get to know ourselves and a lot of us didn't have parents who had that awareness themselves. They didn't have the skill set to teach it to us. And it's never too late for us, which is super rad. Folks can go to seed quiz, S. E. E. D. quiz dot com to take the questionnaire and dive into that information. Heather DiNino (she/they): Amazing. Amazing. And I will put all the links in the show notes. I'll put your Instagram. You're you're pretty active on Instagram. I when you said at the end boundaries, I'm like, we gotta do another episode on boundaries. Because that's a big thing. And I've been Alyssa: Yeah. Heather DiNino (she/they): seeing that on your Insta lately. So yeah, just thank you for your time and thank you for the work that you're doing. Alyssa: Absolutely. Thanks for having me and putting this out into the world, Heather. I appreciate you. Heather DiNino (she/they): Mm-hmm. Thanks for listening to Self Schooled. I hope today's conversation gave you something to think about, something to question, or maybe just a little more confidence in finding your own way. I'd love to keep the conversation going, so come find me on Instagram at self.schooled. That's where I'm sharing more of what I'm learning, questioning, and figuring out along the way. And I'd really love to hear what you're thinking too. I'll see you next week. Until then, keep asking questions, keep getting curious, and keep finding the path that fits your family.