Latest / Deadly Divas True Crime Podcast / Episode 37: The TikTok Dance Cult

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Episode 37: The TikTok Dance Cult · Deadly Divas True Crime Podcast

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, true crime divas and dudes.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tina, and welcome back to your favorite true crime podcast, Deadly Duvas.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Sarah.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you're new here, welcome.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Every Friday we dive into some of the world's most fascinating true crime cases.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And speaking of fascinating, we have got a cult story for y'all today.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, I love the cult ones.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Back in 2024, Netflix released Dancing for the Devil, a documentary about a group of TikTok dancers of Los Angeles Church and the allegations that connected them.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: For weeks, it seemed like everyone had an opinion.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Was this organization a legitimate talent management company, or was it something much darker?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Almost as quickly as it exploded into the spotlight, the conversation seemed to disappear.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I actually started digging back into this case recently because I realized I hadn't heard anything about it in a long time.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the more I researched, the more I realized this story definitely did not end when the documentary did.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it is still unfolding today.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: From the outside, everything looked picture perfect.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Young dancers, millions of followers, brand deals, luxury homes, a lifestyle that looked almost impossible not to envy.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: But according to former members and their families, behind those viral dance videos was a very different reality.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Allegations of manipulation, financial exploitation, sexual abuse, families torn apart, and a church that many former members describe as a literal cult.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So before we get started, I want you guys to keep one question in mind.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: How do intelligent, successful people slowly lose complete control over their own lives without even realizing it's happening?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because by the end of today's episode, I don't think you'll see this story as being about TikTok at all.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think you'll see it as a story about influence, trust, and unwavering control.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get into it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: To understand how all of this happened, we have to start with one horrible, disgusting man.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Robert Shinn.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Shin founded Shekina Church, a relatively small church in Los Angeles in 1994.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: He also became closely connected with 7M Films, a talent management company representing dancers, musicians, and social media influencers.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now on paper, those sound like two completely separate organizations.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: One is a church, the other is a business.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Normally, those two worlds don't overlap.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems inappropriate that they even would, like all kinds of red flags there.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: But according to numerous former members, inside Shekinah and 7M, those lines slowly disappeared.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Former members allege Robert Shin wasn't simply their pastor.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: He became their mentor, their spiritual advisor, their career advisor, and someone they trusted with some of the biggest decisions of their lives.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: He even had authority over their personal lives, who they dated, where they lived, how they spent their money, and even how they viewed family members and other loved ones who questioned the church.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let's put ourselves in these dancers' shoes for a minute.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine that you are 22 years old, you have spent your entire childhood dancing.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Your parents have driven you to competitions every weekend.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: They spent thousands of dollars on lessons, costumes, and travel.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: You have dedicated your entire life to one dream, making it.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Then one day, someone tells you they can help.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Not someday, but right now.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: You'd have official management, industry connections, brand partnerships, and the chance to work alongside some of the biggest dancers on social media.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, honestly, who wouldn't be interested in that?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what you're waiting for in that scenario.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right, as you're being brave.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the thing about stories like this.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Almost nobody joins something like this because they think it's gonna ruin them or hurt them.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: They join because they believe they've found an opportunity, a community, people who believe in them and a chance to finally achieve the dream they spent their entire lives chasing.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And from the outside, 7M looked exactly like that.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Its dancers were everywhere.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: TikTok, Instagram, music videos, even commercials.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Some had millions of followers.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Some were working with major artists.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it looked like they were literally living the dream.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were an aspiring dancer trying to break into the entertainment industry, 7M looked like proof that dreams really do come true.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: But according to former members, that success came with a price.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps no family illustrates that better than the Wilkings.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Long before the Netflix documentary, long before lawsuits, and long before millions of strangers on the internet had an opinion about their family, there were simply two sisters chasing the same dream.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Miranda and Melanie Wilking.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you've spent any time on TikTok, you have probably seen siblings dance together.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: But Miranda and Melanie weren't just making videos for fun.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: They were genuinely talented performers.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Dance had been part of their lives since they were kids.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they literally started dancing when they were just two years old.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I bet that was cute.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there were some videos on the documentary that showed it.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: So their parents drove them to lessons, competitions, conventions, I mean, whatever it took to help them succeed.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like so many families with children in competitive sports or the performing arts, it wasn't just the girls making sacrifices.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was everyone.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Weekends disappeared, vacations revolved around competitions.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thousands of dollars went towards lessons, costumes, travel, and coaching.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: It really became a family dream.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually that dream started becoming reality.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: When COVID hit in 2020 and TikTok exploded, the sisters built an impressive following.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: People loved watching them dance together.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: There was something authentic about them.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: You could not fake that kind of chemistry.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't just business partners, they were sisters, and they were also best friends.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what makes the rest of this story so heartbreaking because when you look at those old videos, you can tell how close they were and how much they loved each other and how much they just enjoyed each other's company and doing the dancing and the TikTok stuff together.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like it did not seem like a job.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: It just sounded like fun.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that is why when those changes came later, they were so confusing.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: According to Melanie and her parents, nothing happened overnight.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't one explosive argument, no dramatic goodbye, no single moment where they said, this is when everything changed.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, it happened little by little.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Phone calls became less frequent, texts took longer to answer, family dinners turned into excuses, missed birthdays and holidays, and then everyday conversations became shorter, more guarded, and almost rehearsed.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the biggest red flags they mentioned is that when Miranda and Melanie's grandfather passed, whom they were very close to, Miranda lied and said she had COVID and could not attend the funeral.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand why that scenario caused panic within the family.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Someone Miranda loved so much and was so close to was gone.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And she chose not to honor them by attending their funeral.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: She chose not to be there with her grieving family.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And according to the family, this is not a choice Miranda would have made previously.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was completely out of character, and they knew that something was very wrong.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And all these details are really important to look at because when people picture someone being drawn into a high control group, they often imagine an overnight transformation.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Former members and families, in this case, describe something very different, a gradual process.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: One that was so subtle, they often did not recognize it until they looked back months or even years later, which probably makes you question yourself.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: You start wondering if you're imagining things.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because Miranda wasn't missing.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Her family knew where she lived.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: They could open TikTok and watch her living what appeared to be an incredible life.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: From the outside, everything looked perfect.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: But according to her family, the Miranda they saw online no longer felt like the Miranda they knew at home.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Melanie has described feeling like she wasn't losing her sister all at once.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: She was losing her one conversation at a time, a holiday at a time, and a phone call at a time.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the reasons this story resonated with so many people, because most of us have experienced drifting apart from someone we were close to, whether that is a friend, a sibling, or a parent.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: But imagine feeling that distance grow while believing there is nothing you can do to stop it, and also not even understanding why it's happening.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually, Melanie and her parents reached a point where they felt they had run out of options.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Private conversations were not working.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Giving Miranda space was not working.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they made a decision they never imagined they would have to make.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: They went public.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: In 2022, they uploaded a video to TikTok asking for help.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Not because Miranda had disappeared, not because they believed she'd been kidnapped, but because they believed she had become involved in a high control environment connected to Shekinah Church in 7M.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I find it very interesting that these two sisters that were so very close and did everything together, that only one of them got sucked into brainwashed, whatever.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to discuss that in the after show, but I do think that I should probably give a little bit of background.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Miranda was the older sister.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Miranda Indiana is the one that got sucked into the cult.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: She was two years older than Melanie.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: When she graduated, she went off to Los Angeles and pursued a career in dance.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when she got involved in 7M and the church and all that.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she was having such a good time living it up that the younger sister, Melanie, eventually followed her out to LA.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And she became involved with this church, too.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she was kind of like, something's weird with these people.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily trust them.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And she was seeing these changes in her sister Miranda that she was not comfortable with.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like she was giving up her freedoms.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: She was staying away for long periods of time, not telling her where she was.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was just all extremely sketchy.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And she had had some interactions with the church, but she'd not been completely sucked in.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And one night, Robert asked her to come to dinner.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess they were trying to stage some kind of an intervention or like formally induct her into the cult.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because at the dinner table, Robert asks Melanie, Are you a sinner?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, I don't think so.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like, what a weird question to ask at dinner.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Oh, you've said a thousand times today.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if you die right now, you're gonna burn in hell.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, is this a proper dinner conversation?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: What are you talking about?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so then they all got into a circle and like Robert touched her forehead and was like doing some kind of ritual on her, and it was all very strange.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the point where Melanie is like, no, I'm out.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm seeing back here.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then shortly after that, it's when the grandfather passed, Melanie went back home and Miranda did not.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: She did not go back home and attend the funeral.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that scenario is kind of when they officially fully split apart.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So because Miranda went first, she didn't maybe realize she was being slowly sucked in.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas because Melanie went later and she knew Miranda so well, she was able to see the red flags from Miranda having been there for a while.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So exactly.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the response to this documentary was immediate.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Millions of people watched.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Some flooded the comments with support.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Others criticized the family, arguing that Miranda was an adult who had every right to make her own choices.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Almost overnight, what had been a deeply personal family struggle became an international conversation.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Suddenly, everybody wanted to know the same thing.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: What exactly was Seven?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And why were so many former members beginning to tell stories that sounded remarkably similar?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: While the Wilking family brought national attention to 7N, they were not the first family to say Robert Shin and Shekinah Church tore their part.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, more than 20 years before Miranda Derrick became the face of this story, there were two other sisters, Melanie and Priscilla Lee.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a different melody, y'all.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's confusing.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And while obviously the Wilking family story is tragic, the Lee sisters' involvement in the church was especially heartwrenching to hear about.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because unlike the Wilkings, whose story unfolds over just a few years, the Lee Sister's story spans more than two decades.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It begins long before TikTok, long before influencers, and long before 7M.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: It begins with two young girls looking for something they had never really had, a family.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Millie and Priscilla were born in South Korea into a difficult home.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: According to both sisters, their father abandoned the family while they were still young, and their mother struggled with alcoholism and gambling.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: They've described spending long periods of time alone as children, never really knowing what stability looked like.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually, they immigrated to Los Angeles as teenagers.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: They were in a new country, far from home, trying to build a new life and carrying years of trauma with them.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's already a really vulnerable place to be.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're young, you're alone, and you're just looking for somewhere you belong.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then they found Shekinah Church.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: This was around the year 1999, years before anyone had ever heard of TikTok or Seton M.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Back then, Shekinah was not a large congregation.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: There were only about 15 members, many of whom were connected to Robert Shin's own family.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't flashy, it wasn't famous, it was small and close knit.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Almost everyone knew everyone else.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And to two young women who had spent much of their lives searching for stability, it must have felt like they had finally found it.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: According to Melanie and Priscilla, everyone welcomed them.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: They shared meals together, prayed together, and called each other family.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: After growing up surrounded by uncertainty, that kind of love and acceptance was incredibly powerful.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: But over time, things began changing.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Not overnight, gradually.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: According to Melanie and Priscilla, Robert Shinn eventually opened several businesses that employed church members.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Members often lived in housing connected to the church, and they say Robert increasingly became the person making decisions about where people lived, where they worked, and who they spent their time with.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: The sisters say they were eventually separated into different church homes.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine that for a second.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: You are finally reunited with your sister after a difficult childhood, only to be told that you can't even live together anymore.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: That is horrible, especially when your sister is probably the one person who's been through everything with you.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And according to both women, life inside the church became increasingly structured.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: They've described waking up around five o'clock every morning, mandatory prayer at six, strict schedules, curfews, little privacy, and mentors who closely monitor different aspects of their lives.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: According to former members, nearly every hour of their days were accounted for.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: This wasn't simply church on Sundays.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: According to former members, it became an entire way of life.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then came one of the moments Melanie says changed everything.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: During a church service, several young women suddenly interrupted the gathering.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: According to Melanie, they accused Robert Shin of sexually assaulting them and coercing them into sexual relationships.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I know you guys can't see Sarah's face, but she's disgusted, as am I.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Melanie says Robert admitted to having sexual relationships with the women, but claimed he had been tempted by them and asked the congregation for forgiveness.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, poor thing.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what a fucking loser.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: What a gross creep.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: At the time, though, Melanie believed him.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing everything we know now, it's easy to look back and ask, how can she believe that?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: But when someone has been your spiritual leader for years, when you've been taught that they speak for God, when your entire community trusts them, that kind of explanation can sound very different than it does to someone on the outside.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so because the six women that he was using sexually lift, he then turns his attention to poor Melanie.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: She alleges that he told her she had to quote unquote pay her price just as other women had before her.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: According to Melody, that included being pressured into sexual acts and being told this was somehow part of God's plan for her life.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that became her breaking point.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: She knew she had to leave.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: But leaving wasn't as simple as walking out the front door.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: She feared people from the church would try to stop her.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So she secretly made a plan.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: A trusted friend drove to the church property carrying a baseball bat, not to attack anyone, but because they were afraid of what might happen if they were confronted trying to leave.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Melanie quickly packed what she could and got into the car.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: But before she left, she begged her sister Priscilla to come with her.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Priscilla unfortunately refused.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Not because she didn't love her sister, but because she genuinely believed Robert Shin's teachings.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Priscilla believed leading the church meant turning her back on God and risking eternal damnation.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not just for herself.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: But for Melanie and everybody else she loved, that is how brainwashed she was.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: So tragically, Melanie drove away without Priscilla.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So was Priscilla present when these girls came in and made the accusations.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do we know?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: She was there.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: But she just didn't aware.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she I I don't know if she believed it or not, but the way that she described it was that she was just so deep in.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like she was brainwashed.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she really believed that as she left, she was damned for eternity.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that sounds ridiculous to you and I, but I mean she was just that deep in it.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I honestly cannot imagine how hard that must have been.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: You are finally escaping, but the person you love most in the world is still inside.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna split you in two, isn't it?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and unfortunately that wasn't the end of the story.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was only a beginning.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Melanie escaped in 2011 and Priscilla stayed for another decade.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: According to Priscilla, after Melanie left, Robert told her that her sister was cursed and that she needed to repent for Melanie's actions, of course.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Priscilla alleges that during those years, Robert began sexually abusing her.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Shock.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: She says it started with requests for private massages and one-on-one meetings before escalating into repeated sexual abuse over the course of several years.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: One detail from her story has stayed with me ever since I watched the documentary.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Priscilla says that she would become physically sick after these encounters.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, literally.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And she says that Robert told her that vomiting meant she was being spiritually cleansed.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Something her body was telling her was wrong.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: She was convinced was actually proof that God was working.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Eventually, another incident shook her face.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: According to Priscilla, Robert's wife, Hannah, confronted and physically attacked her after believing there was an affair.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Priscilla says Robert defended his wife instead of her.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: For the first time in years, she says she began questioning everything.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: She later said she'd reached the point where she'd rather go to hell than stay.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: After approximately 23 years inside Shekinah Church, Priscilla finally left.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd think that would be the happy ending, but healing wasn't that simple.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Melanie had spent ten years rebuilding her life.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Priscilla had just spent more than two decades as basically a captive.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: They loved each other deeply, but they had lived completely different lives for years.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very good way to describe cult members, captivism.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: According to the sisters, rebuilding that relationship has taken time.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Priscilla has spoken openly about struggling with depression, suicidal thoughts, and trying to figure out who she was outside of Shekaida.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Leaving is not the finish line.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: For many people, it's the beginning of trying to rebuild a life they barely recognize.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure they have lots of thoughts and feelings about how did I get myself into that and memories of everything that happened, and then also some kind of guilt about leaving it.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's all kinds of emotional issues I could see coming from that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I want to touch on that before we move on to the next former member.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, did you re-watch the documentary or watch it recently?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I have watched it, but not recently.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so these two sisters, Priscilla and Melanie, you can tell that they're both still struggling, especially Priscilla, the one who stayed while um, you know, Melanie got out a while back and married and had a child, and um she had invited her sister Priscilla to the child's birthday party, and Priscilla ended up being late, but she offered like no explanation.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm sorry I'm late, I had this come up, whatever.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: And Melanie was really upset about it.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, Well, you were late to this birthday party, this is your niece, and you didn't seem apologetic about it, you didn't seem excited to be there, you just didn't seem to even care.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's valid, you know.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking if my sister did something like that to my kid, yeah, that's upsetting.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they were at a table and they were talking to each other about this scenario, and Chrisilla just fully broke down.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, You are expecting me to be a normal person.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I am not a normal person.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is not just a birthday party for me.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, You don't understand.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Every day, all I do is think about killing myself.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: She said it in those exact words.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, that day it was either go to this birthday party or kill myself.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like exact words.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And she just broke down just sobbing.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, You don't understand.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can't be normal like you.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So she is still a completely shattered human being.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I felt so bad for her.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she very much still struggles.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: She said that she actually got out and went back in three-ish times before she left for good.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she said that the times that she left, she literally could not cope.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't know how to live without the quote unquote guidance from Robert.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you hear that with people that have been in jail for a long time, too, that just don't know how to exist outside jail.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's pretty much the same thing.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a different kind of captivity, but it's captivity.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: So now let's pivot to another former member who told their story and helped paint a picture of life inside Shekinah, a dancer named Kevin Concrete Davis.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: What a name.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm concrete.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin was not an aspiring dancer hoping someone would discover him.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: He already had built a successful career.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: He'd worked professionally, earned respect, was in the dance community, and had opportunities of his own.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like so many others, he says he initially found something positive at Shekina.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: A church family, encouragement, a community that genuinely seemed invested in him.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: But according to Kevin, that sense of community slowly became something much more complicated.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: He has publicly described reaching a point where nearly every major decision in his life seemed to involve Robert Shinn.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Career decisions, relationship decisions, life decisions.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And once that became your normal, you stopped questioning it because it didn't feel unusual anymore.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: It just felt like that's the way life worked.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I noticed almost every former member talked about.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't realize how much had changed until they were already deep inside it.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't one moment.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: There were hundreds of little moments, tiny compromises and tiny shifts until one day they looked around and realized their entire world revolved around one person.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was Kylie Douglas.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Kylie has spoken publicly about what she says was one of the most unsettling aspects of life inside Shekinah, confession.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, confession isn't unusual in many religious traditions.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: People confess sins, they seek guidance, they ask for forgiveness.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: There is nothing inherently wrong with that.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: But according to Kylie and other former members, these conversations became deeply personal.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: They say members were encouraged to share intimate details about their relationships, their finances, their fears, their struggles, and even their sexual experiences.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Former members alleged that over time, Robert Shinn came to know virtually everything about the people closest to him.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Robert Shinn has denied these allegations, but when you step back and compare the stories of Priscilla, Kevin, Kylie, and others, you begin hearing the same things over and over again.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Isolation, dependence, confession, fear of questioning leadership.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not because these people all left together, not because they coordinated their stories.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Many hadn't spoken in years or ever.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yet, according to them, they arrived at remarkably similar conclusions after leaving.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of people watching from the outside, that's when this story became much harder to dismiss as just one unhappy former member.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: It began looking like a pattern.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And according to former members, that pattern did not stop with influence over people's careers or spiritual lives.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: They say it extended into their finances.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: According to former members, the deeper they became involved with Shekinah Church and 7M, the more difficult it became to separate one part of their lives from another.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Church was not just church anymore.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Work wasn't just work.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Friendships weren't just friendships.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Everything became connected.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where many former members say they begin feeling trapped.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get into the money.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now I want to be fair, there is nothing unusual about churches encouraging members to tithe.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Millions of people willingly give a portion of their income to their church every year.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: That alone is not controversial.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: The allegations from former members go much further than traditional tithing, though.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Several former members had alleged they were expected to give not only a portion of their income to the church, but also significant percentages of their earnings through management agreements with 7M.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Think about what that means.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: If Robert Shin is your pastor and the company connected to him is also managing their career, then your spiritual life and your financial life become deeply intertwined.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Former members say that's exactly what happened.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: They've described feeling like nearly every major part of their lives eventually flowed through the same person.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: So walking away wasn't as simple as finding another church.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: According to former members, leaving could mean losing your job, your income, your closest friends, your church family, your professional network, and everything you'd spent years building.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine packing up your life knowing you may never speak to the people closest to you again.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: That is a terrifying prospect.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And according to several former members, it's one of the reasons they stayed as long as they did.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Former members also describe becoming increasingly isolated from family members who'd questioned the church.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Again, not overnight, gradually.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Phone calls became less frequent, visits home became less common.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Some say they began viewing concerned parents and siblings not as people trying to help, but as people who simply didn't understand, or maybe even enemies.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: From the family's perspective, they were just desperately trying to reconnect with someone they love.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: But according to several former members from inside the church, those same conversations could feel like attacks on their faith.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like two people were living in completely different realities.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Neither side believed they were the villain.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Each believed they were trying to save the other.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: According to many former members, they didn't realize how much distance had grown until after they left.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Only then did they look back and realize how many birthdays they'd missed and how many friendships had faded.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: How many years of their lives, years with their loved ones, they would never get back.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: So Robert Shann again has denied these allegations.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: But by this point, for my members from different backgrounds, different careers, and different periods of time were beginning to describe many of the same experiences.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And for investigators, journalists, and even documentary filmmakers, that consistency raised even more questions.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So now come the allegations that changed the conversation entirely.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Multiple women who were formerly part of Shitaina Church publicly accused Robert Shin of sexual abuse and sexual misconduct.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some alleged the abuse the game decades ago.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Others say it continued over a period of years.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: According to the women who came forward, this wasn't simply about unwanted sexual contact.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: They say it was about power.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Several women described believing they couldn't meaningfully refuse Robert Shinn because of the authority they believed he held over every aspect of their lives, their faith, their future, their careers, their relationships.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: And some said they believed disobeying him meant literally disobeying God.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Others feared losing their entire community as they challenged him.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Some have spoken about rebuilding relationships with family.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Others have talked about struggling with guilt, shame, anxiety, and learning to trust their own instincts again after leaving.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Leaving was not the end of their story.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: For many of them, it was the beginning of trying to figure out who they were without Robert Shin's influence.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I don't think people always appreciate.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Leaving does not erase what happened to you.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: It just starts the healing process.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And as more former members found one another and began comparing experiences, the story grew too large to stay within the walls of one church.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was about to become international news.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: For years, these stories were largely confined to former members, their families, and the people still attending Chicago Church.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Outside of those circles, very few people had ever heard the names Robert Shin or 7M.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: That all changed in 2022.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Let's revisit Miranda and Melanie Wilkin.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: After months of trying to reconnect with Miranda privately, Melanie and her parents made the incredibly difficult decision to go public.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: They uploaded a video to TikTok asking for help.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that is when people really started digging into 7M.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Former members began giving interviews, journalists started investigating, creators on TikTok and YouTube dissected everything they could find.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: People revisited old dance videos, live streams, interviews, and social media posts looking for clues that they might have missed.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Then in 2024, Netflix released Dancing for the Devil, the 7N TikTok Cole.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: For many viewers, it was their first introduction to Robert Shin, Shekinah Church, and the allegations made by former members.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: The documentary featured interviews with former members who described their experiences, the Wilking family as they searched for answers, and experts who discussed the dynamics often seen in high control roots.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: It quickly became one of Netflix's most talked-about documentaries, but it also became incredibly controversial.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because while former members described manipulation, coercive control, financial exploitation, and other abuses, the people still inside 7M told a very different story.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: Following the documentary's release, Miranda publicly rejected the idea that she was part of the cult.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: She said she was happy that she loved her husband, that she had chosen this life for herself, and that the documentary failed to accurately represent her experience.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: She was married, so her husband was in the cult?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Her husband, professional dancer James B.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Derrick, has also defended 7M and denied that the organization is a cult.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now he was in this cult before he met her.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he kind of pulled her in.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: They started dating.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: The relationship moved very, very quickly.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: And before anybody knew it, they were married.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how she got into the cult.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's how she got into the cult.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that was important to include because whether people agree with them or not, those are their positions, and they are world-ass adults.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this story is not as simple as everyone telling the same version of events.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: You have former members describing years of manipulation.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have current members saying they're living the lives they chose.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: And somewhere in the middle, you have families still hoping they'll one day be whole again, which is why this story is still so polarizing.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on who you ask, you'll hear completely different versions of the same events.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And while millions of people assumed the documentary would be the end of the story, it wasn't.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: The legal battles continued.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Former members filed lawsuits.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Robert Shinn and others connected denied the allegations and pursued legal action of their own.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: The case moved from social media to courtrooms.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Then, in July of 2025, the story took another dramatic turn.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Federal investigators executed search warrants at properties connected to Robert Shin as part of an ongoing criminal investigation.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: According to public reporting, investigators are looking into allegations that include sex trafficking, money laundering, tax evasion, and pandemic related fraud.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: So when COVID happened and they were giving everybody the money for their businesses, Robert had several members of the church apply for fraudulent COVID relief business loans.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully they can at least get him on that, if nothing else.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's still being investigated, so we'll see.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be very careful here.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: A search warrant is not a conviction.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: It does not mean someone has been found guilty of a crime.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: As of the recording of this episode, Robert Shinn has not been criminally charged in connection with that investigation, and he has denied any wrongdoing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it does tell us something important.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: The story did not end when the Netflix credits rolled.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: In many ways, it was just beginning.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there's another piece of Robert Shin's story that I think often gets overlooked, but it adds an interesting layer to everything that we have talked about.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Long before TikTok, long before 7M, Robert Shin had already spent years trying to break into the entertainment industry.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't just a pastor, he was also producing independent films and television projects trying to establish himself in Hollywood.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: One of those films was Random Encounters, a romantic comedy released in 2013 that featured Meghan Markle years before she became the Duchess of Sussex.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: He also produced another independent comedy called He's Way More Famous Than You, and even created a television program called The Millionaires Club, which was later renamed the Billionaires Club.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: None of those projects turned Robert Shin into a household name, but they do paint a picture of someone who had been pursuing the entertainment industry long before 7M ever existed.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't just Robert.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: His son, Isaiah Shin, became heavily involved in filmmaking and video production, eventually co-founding 7M and helping create the polished dance videos that exploded across TikTok.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: His daughter, Chloe Shin, pursued a career as a singer-songwriter, and her music appeared in some of Robert's productions and later in content connected to 7M.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: So when you step back and look at the timeline, it's not hard to notice a pattern.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: First, there were independent films, then television, then music, then influencer management.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost as though Robert kept adapting to whatever the next opportunity in entertainment looks like.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, to be clear, there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to work in Hollywood or trying to help your children build careers in the entertainment industry.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Plenty of parents do that.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think that is an interesting piece of context because by the time Tick Talk exploded in popularity.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: Robert Shin was not a newcomer trying something completely different.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: He'd already spent years trying to build a name in the entertainment industry.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: The difference was that this time, instead of trying to become the person in the spotlight, he was building a business around the people who were.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And moving with the times.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually a really interesting shift.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that was always the plan, though, we don't know.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: But when you look at the timeline, 7M does not feel like a random idea that appeared out of nowhere.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like the latest chapter in a much longer journey, one that had been unfolding for decades before anyone had ever even heard of TikTok.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So where does all of this leave us today?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: The truth is we still do not have all the answers.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: The federal investigation remains active and the civil lawsuits involving Robert Shin, Shekina Church, 7M, and several former members are still working their way through the courts.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: As of the recording of this episode, Robert Shin has not been criminally charged in connection with the federal investigation, and he has denied wrongdoing among with many of the allegations made against him.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Miranda Derrett continues to publicly maintain that she is happy and that she is making her own choices and that the Netwitz documentary did not accurately represent her experience.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: 7M has likewise denied the allegations and continues to maintain that the management company and Shekinah Church are separate organizations.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: Her family, meanwhile, has never stopped saying they love her.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: They have consistently said this was never about trying to control her life.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: It was about trying to reconnect with someone they felt they were losing.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what has always made this case so heartbreaking because there still isn't a neat ending.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't a courtroom verdict that answers every question.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't a dramatic family reunion where everything is suddenly okay.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, there are families still hoping to heal.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Former members trying to rebuild their identities after years inside a group, they say change their lives.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Current members who insist they're exactly where they want to be.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: An active federal investigation, ongoing civil litigation, and a story that is still unfolding.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, that leaves us with more questions than answers.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Will the federal investigation ultimately result in criminal charges?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: How will the civil lawsuits ultimately be resolved?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: And will Marmanda and her family ever reconcile?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, we just don't know.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: But regardless of how these legal cases end, one thing cannot be disputed.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: This story changed the lives of everyone at its center.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Families were fractured, friendships were lost.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: And according to former members, rebuilding their lives after leaving has been a journey that continues to this day.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: When we start in today's episode, I asked you a question.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do ordinary, intelligent, successful people slowly lose control over their own lives without even realizing it's happening?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: And after everything we've covered, I'm not sure that is the right question anymore.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the better question is this how do trust, faith, ambition, and the very human desire to belong become things that can be exploited.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's something worth thinking about long after this episode ends.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the story of the 7M TikTok dance call.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Final thoughts.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Anything can be exploited, but faith itself, especially, I think is something that is exploited on a daily basis.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: It is because when you have people that are looking for faith, you know, some higher power to help guide them or support them or whatever, they really want that.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: So like they want to cling on to whatever.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the constant threat of like, you know, you follow this and you'll be good in God's books.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't follow this, you're going to hell.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's very final.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's so brutal.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a Southern Baptist household and I had to go to church up until I was like a teenager, probably like 13, 14.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I stopped going.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: I never read the Bible again.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: I never had any interest in it whatsoever.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was doing a project, like, I don't know, five or six years ago, and I went back and read some of the Bible.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it knocked me over the brutality that is in that book.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I read like fiction, like sci-fi, like horror books that are less brutal than this.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a lot of fear-based teaching.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand how terrorizes.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that is how what makes it so easy for people to manipulate and take advantage of that.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is it's it as you say, it's fear-based.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: But no shade to anybody, whatever your religious beliefs are.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um just don't let anybody use it against you.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Don't let anybody use it against you, and don't use it against anybody else.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: That too.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys so much for joining us for another episode of Deadly Divas.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: We hope that you enjoyed hearing about this case.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: And subscribers, we will see you in the after show.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody else will see you next week.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: And until then, be divas.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: Not deadly.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.