Latest / Luke's English Podcast / S1E29 - Lessons from The Laney Gwinner Effect

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S1E29 - Lessons from The Laney Gwinner Effect · Luke's English Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: On Tragedy. We cover cases that involve real people and
0:03
Speaker 1: real events. Episodes may include discussions of violence, criminal behavior,
0:09
Speaker 1: and loss. We shared these stories to honor those impacted
0:12
Speaker 1: and to raise awareness, but they may not be suitable
0:15
Speaker 1: for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. On December tenth,
0:36
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, life would instantly change forever for so
0:40
Speaker 1: many people. A beautiful young woman would walk outside a
0:44
Speaker 1: bowling alley by herself, never to be seen alive again.
0:48
Speaker 1: The day's following would test the faith of those close
0:51
Speaker 1: to her. Prayers were flowing NonStop, both in private and
0:55
Speaker 1: in public. Those who knew her and even those who didn't,
0:59
Speaker 1: were asking God to bring her home. As the days passed,
1:02
Speaker 1: those prayers went unanswered, until, unfortunately, the answers to their
1:07
Speaker 1: prayers were not what they expected. Alana Laney Gwinner did
1:12
Speaker 1: finally come home, both to Westchester, Ohio and to her maker.
1:18
Speaker 1: At least they knew where she was. She wasn't freezing
1:21
Speaker 1: in the cold weather of Ohio in January. She wasn't
1:24
Speaker 1: being held against her will, she wasn't being tortured or abused,
1:29
Speaker 1: but she was no longer alive. The prayers to find
1:33
Speaker 1: Laney had been answered, but the prayers to find her
1:36
Speaker 1: well and in good health were not. The questions toward
1:40
Speaker 1: God were many. You've been listening to the words from
1:45
Speaker 1: author Randy Hubbard's book that explores the unsolved murder of
1:49
Speaker 1: twenty three year old Alana Laney Gwinner and the ripple
1:52
Speaker 1: effect it had on a small community. The book also
1:55
Speaker 1: chronicles Randy's journey as a high school teacher and his
1:59
Speaker 1: students as they explored Laney's cold case, sparking a classroom
2:03
Speaker 1: movement that brought forensic science to life. We had the
2:07
Speaker 1: unique opportunity to speak with Randy about his book, his
2:11
Speaker 1: impact in the classroom, and about the case itself. This
2:15
Speaker 1: is Tragedy, a true crime podcast. Today we are chatting
2:20
Speaker 1: with Randy Hubbard. Randy is the author of The Laney
2:24
Speaker 1: Gwinner Effect. How one cold case mobilized a high school
2:27
Speaker 1: to make a difference. And Welcome to the show.
2:30
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I really appreciate you guys doing
2:32
Speaker 2: this for me.
2:34
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, how's they say?
2:35
Speaker 1: And Michael's here too. Welcome to the show.
2:37
Speaker 3: Michael, thank you.
2:37
Speaker 1: Oh you're welcome. So before we get into your book,
2:41
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about you.
2:45
Speaker 2: Okay, So I was a teacher for thirty four years.
2:48
Speaker 2: I taught science and eventually I got into teaching forensic science,
2:54
Speaker 2: and then from there I started working on Laney's case.
2:59
Speaker 2: And after probably a year, not even that long, about
3:03
Speaker 2: six months, the student I that were working on and
3:06
Speaker 2: I said, hey, do you think this would be a
3:07
Speaker 2: good class, and he said it'd be great, and then
3:10
Speaker 2: I started the cold Case at HS class that we
3:12
Speaker 2: did for the last six years, you.
3:15
Speaker 1: Know, and we have several listeners who are teachers, because
3:18
Speaker 1: well I was a teacher for thirty plus years and
3:22
Speaker 1: a high school administrator, and so when we talked earlier
3:27
Speaker 1: with you, I of course got really really excited about
3:30
Speaker 1: the course creation, and we just talked about the authenticity
3:34
Speaker 1: of what you're doing in real world, right, I mean,
3:37
Speaker 1: really really relevant to kids. So we have a lot
3:42
Speaker 1: of educators listening, so I think they're going to be
3:44
Speaker 1: really excited to hear about your background in education and
3:48
Speaker 1: how that turned into a book and made these experiences
3:50
Speaker 1: for students, and obviously talking about Leani as well.
3:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like the one of the big things
3:55
Speaker 2: that all educators to do is take a chance, you know,
3:58
Speaker 2: try to be creative and do something different.
4:01
Speaker 3: This is definitely different side. And that's why when I
4:03
Speaker 3: got your email, I was, you know, I think he
4:06
Speaker 3: commented on how quickly I responded back because I read that,
4:09
Speaker 3: I'm like, WHOA, I've never heard of this and this
4:12
Speaker 3: is unique and something I want to know a lot
4:14
Speaker 3: more about.
4:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think we're doing a good job in
4:17
Speaker 1: education really not focusing so much on the SATs and
4:21
Speaker 1: the act spot. Really, how can we teach skills to
4:25
Speaker 1: kids that will transfer into what happens to them after
4:28
Speaker 1: they leave high school?
4:29
Speaker 3: Right?
4:30
Speaker 1: And this is a really great way to do that,
4:33
Speaker 1: And of course taps into my personal expertise and things
4:39
Speaker 1: that I'm really really passionate about. So it's nice to
4:41
Speaker 1: see these two things come together for me.
4:42
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
4:43
Speaker 1: Yeah. So what led you to authoring the book? Talk
4:46
Speaker 1: some more about that.
4:48
Speaker 2: So as Evan and I, which we'll probably talk about later,
4:52
Speaker 2: a student and I, we were getting into researching Lady's
4:55
Speaker 2: case and getting excited about it, and we're starting to
4:59
Speaker 2: learn so many thing things I would have never learned
5:02
Speaker 2: even as a teacher.
5:03
Speaker 3: You know.
5:04
Speaker 2: We were talking to people about how the river works
5:08
Speaker 2: and how the speed of the river and things travel
5:10
Speaker 2: on top of water and how they would travel on
5:12
Speaker 2: the bottom of the water, and all kinds of new stuff,
5:15
Speaker 2: and I just thought, Wow, what a great way for
5:18
Speaker 2: students to interact, to actually get to learn something different.
5:24
Speaker 2: And for me it was such a learning experience. I mean,
5:27
Speaker 2: I think I taught for thirty four years. In my
5:29
Speaker 2: last six were probably my most productive because I was
5:32
Speaker 2: learning the whole time. So as we're getting into the story,
5:37
Speaker 2: I also started feeling myself kind of evaluating my life
5:42
Speaker 2: a little bit, you know, not in a bad way,
5:45
Speaker 2: but actually in a good way, because it was starting
5:48
Speaker 2: to open me up to looking back at my faith
5:50
Speaker 2: and things like that.
5:51
Speaker 3: And I told my.
5:52
Speaker 2: Wife one day, I said I really want to write
5:54
Speaker 2: a book, and she kind of looked at me and said, sure,
5:56
Speaker 2: go ahead, probably thinking I wasn't really going to do it.
5:59
Speaker 2: So one day I went out on the patio and
6:02
Speaker 2: just started typing. And from that point on, you know,
6:05
Speaker 2: I wanted to get Laney's story out, and I wanted
6:08
Speaker 2: to get it out in a way that people would
6:12
Speaker 2: see her effect on me, my students, on our community,
6:17
Speaker 2: even though she's not here, even though her case was
6:20
Speaker 2: almost thirty years ago now, she still had an effect,
6:24
Speaker 2: and I thought that was a story that needed to
6:26
Speaker 2: be told.
6:27
Speaker 3: One thing. I mean, I've read most of the book
6:29
Speaker 3: at this point, So why this story? Why was this
6:32
Speaker 3: the one you gravitated toward?
6:34
Speaker 2: Because I grew up in the town that she disappeared from.
6:37
Speaker 2: We found her case actually looking at other ones, and
6:41
Speaker 2: her case was at the bottom of the list of
6:44
Speaker 2: girls who had disappeared or had been killed and their
6:49
Speaker 2: cases were still open. And the first one we looked
6:52
Speaker 2: at was actually out in Arkansas, but at the bottom
6:54
Speaker 2: of the page it showed a connection between the Melissa
6:59
Speaker 2: witt out an arc and Landy Gwinner Here in Fairfield, Ohio.
7:04
Speaker 2: They both disappeared from a bowling alley. They both disappeared
7:07
Speaker 2: in December, they both were alone in the parking lot,
7:13
Speaker 2: and then they were both found nearly fifty sixty miles
7:16
Speaker 2: away from where they were taken. So there were some
7:18
Speaker 2: connections there. And when I looked at it, I thought,
7:21
Speaker 2: I used to go to the bowling alley she disappeared
7:24
Speaker 2: from when I was a kid. My parents would take
7:26
Speaker 2: me there, and I just thought, you know, I didn't
7:30
Speaker 2: even know this story happened in my hometown and I
7:33
Speaker 2: was from that area, so it was just kind of
7:36
Speaker 2: you know, I thought that I've never had any interest
7:41
Speaker 2: in the stuff that happened in my hometown like that,
7:43
Speaker 2: and it just really gravitated towards it.
7:46
Speaker 3: I was thinking about how you must have felt whenever
7:48
Speaker 3: you're talking about this vehicle that's overturned, it's in the water.
7:51
Speaker 3: You can see the tires coming out of the surface
7:54
Speaker 3: of the water, and then you went into the water
7:58
Speaker 3: basically feeling around trying to figure out what kind of
8:00
Speaker 3: car this was. Talk to us about that experience.
8:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that was kind of crazy. To get
8:07
Speaker 2: the tip, Yeah, to get the tip. Another teacher that
8:11
Speaker 2: actually called me from his from Mason County High School,
8:15
Speaker 2: which is actually in Kentucky and they're probably about two
8:19
Speaker 2: hours from us. I got a call from him and
8:22
Speaker 2: he said, Hey, I think this guy's looking for you,
8:25
Speaker 2: and I'm I'm not sure what he's talking about. He said,
8:27
Speaker 2: a guy called me and said there's a car in
8:29
Speaker 2: the river behind his uncle's house that's near Fairfield, Ohio,
8:34
Speaker 2: and he's been telling people for twenty years it's been
8:36
Speaker 2: there and nobody will listened to it. So I said, okay,
8:40
Speaker 2: give me his number, so called him and he said, hey,
8:45
Speaker 2: won't you go meet me out at my uncle's house.
8:48
Speaker 2: Of course, we're new at this and listening to all
8:50
Speaker 2: the other podcasts, you know where they they go and
8:53
Speaker 2: knock on doors and do all that. Thought, Wow, this
8:55
Speaker 2: is a chance for us to do that. Probably wasn't
8:58
Speaker 2: necessarily the smartest thing to do at the time. We
9:02
Speaker 2: really didn't know what we were getting into. So but
9:04
Speaker 2: we were so excited and we thought if we could
9:06
Speaker 2: just find the car, this would turn the whole case around.
9:10
Speaker 2: So we go out there and a guy named by
9:14
Speaker 2: the name of Glenn lives there, and his nephew told
9:18
Speaker 2: us that Glenn's kind of, you know, he's a little
9:20
Speaker 2: bit on edge. He's an old Vietnam veteran. He's, you know,
9:24
Speaker 2: had some health issues and things like that. He doesn't
9:26
Speaker 2: like people beyond his land. But he knows you're coming,
9:29
Speaker 2: but he might give you a hard time. At first.
9:31
Speaker 2: Said okay, so no we do. So we pull in
9:35
Speaker 2: to this house and I don't know if you saw
9:36
Speaker 2: the pictures in the book, but the old dilapidated barns,
9:41
Speaker 2: there's stuff all over the yard. It looks like nobody
9:44
Speaker 2: actually lives there, and all of a sudden, a black
9:48
Speaker 2: truck comes screaming in behind us, gravel flying all over
9:52
Speaker 2: the place and things. I'm thinking, oh my god, what
9:53
Speaker 2: are we doing? And all of a sudden, a couple
9:58
Speaker 2: seconds later, the nephew gets out of the car. You
10:01
Speaker 2: could tell that he rushed over there from work and
10:03
Speaker 2: things like that, and he introduced himself. Well, then we
10:06
Speaker 2: turn around and Glenn, the older gentleman is walking up
10:09
Speaker 2: a gravel road. He's got no shirt on, he's barefoot,
10:14
Speaker 2: and you could and he's walking right down in the
10:16
Speaker 2: middle of this gravel. I'm thinking my feet would be
10:19
Speaker 2: killing me by that time. And he comes up. You know,
10:23
Speaker 2: he's got long hair, CATAI, scruffy guy. And he started
10:27
Speaker 2: telling us the story that he's been telling the police
10:30
Speaker 2: for years, that this car has been in the river,
10:32
Speaker 2: but nobody will come and see it. Part of that
10:35
Speaker 2: is that Glenn is known to kind of wander around
10:38
Speaker 2: town and collect things like aluminum and all kind of
10:42
Speaker 2: stuff to you for money and things like that. So
10:46
Speaker 2: he to them he wasn't really somebody that would believe
10:49
Speaker 2: a whole lot. But to us, I thought, why not,
10:52
Speaker 2: Maybe it is something, So so we get out there.
10:55
Speaker 2: The first time we go, We're starting to walk down
10:59
Speaker 2: the gravel road, and all of a sudden, the nephew says,
11:02
Speaker 2: hold on a minute, and he goes back to his truck.
11:05
Speaker 2: Well he comes back out with a shotgun. And now
11:07
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, oh my god, what are we getting into?
11:09
Speaker 3: I got to get real.
11:11
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm taking phone locator on exactly. Uh So I
11:16
Speaker 2: look at Evan and I look at him and I
11:18
Speaker 2: kind of said, if I tell you to run, just
11:21
Speaker 2: take off. So we get there and uh he goes, oh, sorry,
11:27
Speaker 2: he goes, Starry, didn't mean to scary. He goes, well,
11:28
Speaker 2: we got a aggressive groundhog got here. So now I'm thinking, well,
11:33
Speaker 2: not only do we have a gap with a shot
11:34
Speaker 2: and we got an aggressive groundhog. So I'm thinking, what
11:38
Speaker 2: am I doing.
11:39
Speaker 3: When I read that section? What is an aggressive groundhog?
11:42
Speaker 1: This must be really a big I think about they're small.
11:45
Speaker 1: Is this like a prairie dog?
11:46
Speaker 3: Well, this whole section of the story I found fascinating
11:48
Speaker 3: and you know, funny and interesting. That's why I wanted
11:50
Speaker 3: to talk.
11:51
Speaker 1: Is it different? Are prairie dogs and groundhogs different?
11:54
Speaker 2: They're from the same family, but groundhogs are very a
11:57
Speaker 2: lot bigger.
11:58
Speaker 1: Right, So this is your science background. You're gonna do
12:01
Speaker 1: some kind of animal taxonomy ted talk, I think.
12:04
Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly, a little bit bigger, a little more aggressive.
12:08
Speaker 2: They protect their like their nests and stuff for a
12:10
Speaker 2: little bit more so. And I was a little worried
12:13
Speaker 2: about that. I wasn't worry about the gap of the
12:15
Speaker 2: gun anymore. I'm thinking I'm gonna get bit by a
12:17
Speaker 2: by a roundhaul.
12:22
Speaker 3: So it was.
12:23
Speaker 2: It was kind of crazy. But we get out there
12:25
Speaker 2: and they're showing us where the car is. The first
12:27
Speaker 2: time we went, we couldn't see it. The river was
12:29
Speaker 2: a little too high. It was a rushing a little
12:31
Speaker 2: bit too much. So he said, i'll call you when
12:34
Speaker 2: the water goes down. Well about probably two months later,
12:38
Speaker 2: in July, the water goes down, he calls us. So
12:41
Speaker 2: Evan and I prepared. It was a steep grade down
12:45
Speaker 2: this hill with giant pieces of concrete and stuff that
12:48
Speaker 2: they had thrown over the edge. So Evan and I
12:51
Speaker 2: tied ourselves to a tree with a big rope. We're
12:55
Speaker 2: repelling down the back of this hill. We get out
12:58
Speaker 2: into the water and I took like a telescoping paint
13:02
Speaker 2: stick and I would put it in the areas of
13:04
Speaker 2: the river because he said there are some deep spots. Well,
13:06
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, that's all I need to do is lose
13:09
Speaker 2: a student in the middle of the river. So so
13:13
Speaker 2: we go out there, we poke around, we finally find it.
13:15
Speaker 2: So we get out there and it was it was
13:19
Speaker 2: exciting because one we found the car, and then as
13:22
Speaker 2: we're measuring it, we found the front of the car.
13:25
Speaker 2: We found the back of the car. We've took a
13:27
Speaker 2: tape measure with us, and we measured the length of
13:29
Speaker 2: it and the width of it. And we're actually yelling
13:32
Speaker 2: up to Glenn and his nephew because they have their phone,
13:36
Speaker 2: and said, hey, can you look up the size of
13:40
Speaker 2: a Honda del Soul from nineteen ninety three. So every
13:44
Speaker 2: time we would yell at a measurement, he would say, yeah,
13:46
Speaker 2: that's that's perfect, and then we'd reell out the link,
13:49
Speaker 2: Yeah that's perfect the distance between the tires, and we're thinking, oh, man, mare,
13:54
Speaker 2: maybe we found it. And then we start digging around.
13:59
Speaker 2: We found the door handle, found a couple other things
14:03
Speaker 2: of car parts, and then we felt the tires. And
14:05
Speaker 2: once we felt the tires, we were kind of sure
14:08
Speaker 2: that it wasn't her car because her car had five
14:12
Speaker 2: lugnuts and it was only four on there, so we
14:15
Speaker 2: kind of knew it wasn't her car, but we weren't sure,
14:18
Speaker 2: and we had already called the police and told him
14:20
Speaker 2: we were doing that. Well, we marked it. Evan is
14:24
Speaker 2: a very smart kid. He brought a painted red milk
14:28
Speaker 2: jug and tied it to a string and tied it
14:31
Speaker 2: onto the car so that if the river comes up,
14:34
Speaker 2: you can still see it. So we left it there.
14:40
Speaker 2: Probably three months later, I get a call from his
14:43
Speaker 2: nephew that says, hey, are you at my uncle's house.
14:48
Speaker 2: I said no, why and he said, well, the police
14:51
Speaker 2: are there pulling out that car. I said, you've got
14:53
Speaker 2: to be kidney. So I broke every traffic law in
14:57
Speaker 2: the state to get there from my house to get
15:01
Speaker 2: back there. When I got there, they had already pulled
15:03
Speaker 2: it out and said that they identified the car. It
15:07
Speaker 2: was actually one that had been reported stolen, but it
15:12
Speaker 2: wasn't her car, so which was unfortunate. But it's an
15:16
Speaker 2: exciting trip, I will say that.
15:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, So all the teachers want to know what did
15:20
Speaker 1: the field trip permission slip look like?
15:22
Speaker 2: Well, that one wasn't quite wasn't quite legal, probably, I
15:28
Speaker 2: can tell.
15:28
Speaker 1: You that's the first thing. All the teachers are like,
15:30
Speaker 1: somebody signed a field trip permission slip for the.
15:33
Speaker 3: Well I did.
15:34
Speaker 2: Actually I did talk to his parents several times, said hey,
15:38
Speaker 2: I'm sure, yeah, we're going to go do this, and
15:40
Speaker 2: they they thought, all, great, we'll go with you. So
15:43
Speaker 2: but they didn't go, so they were excited about it too.
15:46
Speaker 3: So one thing I wanted to find out too is
15:49
Speaker 3: you know, I'm trying to be careful not to say
15:51
Speaker 3: too much because I want people to read the book,
15:54
Speaker 3: and you know, but other other areas in the book,
15:56
Speaker 3: there are other highlights that you'd like to talk to
15:58
Speaker 3: us about.
15:59
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the big thing I think about the
16:02
Speaker 2: book is, yeah, her story is tragic. You can read
16:06
Speaker 2: about all the things that happened that night and prior
16:09
Speaker 2: and all that. But I think the biggest thing for
16:11
Speaker 2: me was how her brother and her friends and everybody
16:17
Speaker 2: talked about her. You know, Laney was somebody that was
16:20
Speaker 2: the life of the party. She was somebody that they
16:23
Speaker 2: all just couldn't get enough of. But she's like everybody else,
16:28
Speaker 2: she had some issues in her life, you know, all
16:32
Speaker 2: twenty three year olds are kind of doing crazy things
16:34
Speaker 2: at that time, and she was looking for love in
16:36
Speaker 2: all the wrong places. So and a lot of times
16:41
Speaker 2: she found herself in bad situations, but she was kind
16:45
Speaker 2: of turning that around and she finally found somebody that
16:47
Speaker 2: was probably going to be good for her. She had
16:51
Speaker 2: just finished school, she was out celebrating that, and then
16:54
Speaker 2: she ran into the wrong person. But the biggest thing
16:57
Speaker 2: for me was her brother, David, who is a tremendous man.
17:03
Speaker 2: He said when she when she died, he lost three
17:07
Speaker 2: family members that day because his mom and dad ended
17:11
Speaker 2: up dying after that because of a broken heart. Basically,
17:17
Speaker 2: you know, dad became an alcoholic and mom had already
17:20
Speaker 2: had some issues, but he said that she just died
17:23
Speaker 2: of a broken heart. So that was the biggest thing,
17:27
Speaker 2: you know. The other thing is that it just affected
17:29
Speaker 2: me and my students so much that we thought we
17:32
Speaker 2: had to do more, and we thought there are so
17:35
Speaker 2: many cases out there that if we start a class,
17:38
Speaker 2: maybe we can at least get the stories back out
17:41
Speaker 2: and hopefully somebody will come up with some answers for
17:43
Speaker 2: those stories.
17:44
Speaker 3: All right, And so that kind of gets into the
17:46
Speaker 3: second half of this that I want to talk about
17:48
Speaker 3: is the class, how it got started, and where in
17:51
Speaker 3: you know, where is it today?
17:54
Speaker 2: So it was kind of crazy. We're working on it
17:56
Speaker 2: and on Laney's case, and I just looked at Evan
17:59
Speaker 2: and said, hey, what do you think think about this
18:00
Speaker 2: being a class? He said this would be great because
18:03
Speaker 2: we were learning so much. I said, okay, well, you
18:06
Speaker 2: and I got to sit down and write it. So
18:07
Speaker 2: actually a student and I wrote it together, so he
18:09
Speaker 2: was with me the whole time. We wrote it in
18:12
Speaker 2: about a week and a half because we had to
18:15
Speaker 2: hurry up and get it in before the deadline. And
18:19
Speaker 2: as you being an administrator, Leslie, the first thing they
18:24
Speaker 2: asked me is how are you going to keep the
18:25
Speaker 2: kids safe? So we had to come up with all
18:29
Speaker 2: the strategies of how we're going to do that. But
18:31
Speaker 2: I also got some help from Cheryl McCullum. I don't
18:35
Speaker 2: know if you guys know her, but she is from Atlanta.
18:39
Speaker 2: She's been on Nancy Gray Show. She gets questioned a
18:43
Speaker 2: lot of times on TV shows about crime scenes and
18:46
Speaker 2: things like that. She's pretty famous for the work she does,
18:50
Speaker 2: and she has several podcasts herself. But she has a
18:54
Speaker 2: program for college students, and I talked to her about
18:58
Speaker 2: how we do that. She actually called my assistant principal
19:02
Speaker 2: and told her, you know, they can do this and
19:05
Speaker 2: they can do it safely, and kind of gave her,
19:08
Speaker 2: you know, the idea of you know, if you do
19:12
Speaker 2: it the right way, you can get those stories back out,
19:14
Speaker 2: and she accepted it and we got it through. So
19:18
Speaker 2: we started the next year with I think twelve cases.
19:23
Speaker 2: Students did a tremendous job. We did a we were
19:26
Speaker 2: going to do a presentation at the end of the year,
19:28
Speaker 2: but then COVID hit, so we didn't need to do
19:30
Speaker 2: it that year. So but the next year we did it.
19:33
Speaker 2: We did it live in front of parents and things
19:36
Speaker 2: like that. Then the next year we started doing it
19:41
Speaker 2: live and it's live streaming it also, so and we've had
19:45
Speaker 2: several cases that have been kind of reopened at least
19:49
Speaker 2: relooked at because police officers saw what we were doing
19:54
Speaker 2: and we had a couple witnesses that they didn't have,
20:00
Speaker 2: or we had witnesses that changed their story and things
20:03
Speaker 2: like that. So so that's how we kind of got
20:07
Speaker 2: into it. We're getting now to the point where you know,
20:11
Speaker 2: the police departments were starting to work with us now.
20:14
Speaker 2: I stepped away last year. I retired, but I turned
20:18
Speaker 2: it over to a guy that had been teaching with
20:20
Speaker 2: me or teaching forensic science with me for a while.
20:23
Speaker 2: And right now there are I think they're doing eleven
20:25
Speaker 2: cases right now, and he says it's going tremendous. They
20:29
Speaker 2: had all day to day. He said that they had
20:32
Speaker 2: twelve or thirteen people call them back to talk about
20:35
Speaker 2: the cases.
20:36
Speaker 3: So wow.
20:37
Speaker 1: Well, and I think what's interesting for me as I
20:39
Speaker 1: listened to that story is you're not just teaching skills
20:42
Speaker 1: like interviewing skills and critical thinking. You're teaching empathy and
20:46
Speaker 1: compassion exactly.
20:48
Speaker 2: And that was the one thing I wanted him to
20:50
Speaker 2: get out of.
20:50
Speaker 1: That m And that is a skill that I think
20:54
Speaker 1: sometimes we in school, we we either forget to or
20:58
Speaker 1: we feel like we don't have time for it. And
21:02
Speaker 1: it's so so important, even more important, I think than
21:05
Speaker 1: critical thinking. So I'm good on you for moving forward
21:09
Speaker 1: with that. And I think you've talked about taking a risk,
21:11
Speaker 1: which that's amazing. I want to take this class.
21:16
Speaker 2: It's a lot, yeah, it is. It's a lot of fun.
21:18
Speaker 2: It's something that it's becomes addicting, like right now I'm
21:21
Speaker 2: still working on two or three cases that we worked
21:23
Speaker 2: on over the six years. I'm currently talking to a
21:28
Speaker 2: prisoner in Texas who says he has information on a
21:30
Speaker 2: case that we worked on I think four years ago
21:34
Speaker 2: that it actually got into Time magazine and some other things.
21:38
Speaker 2: But he says he has information on it, so I'm
21:40
Speaker 2: kind of feeling him out to see if he really does.
21:43
Speaker 3: So it sounds to me like you've retired about as
21:45
Speaker 3: effectively as my wife.
21:46
Speaker 1: As I did.
21:47
Speaker 2: Pretty much.
21:48
Speaker 1: Yes, it really is. It's a different method of doing
21:53
Speaker 1: the same thing that we are doing. You know, we
21:56
Speaker 1: are relooking at cases. We are speaking to people who
22:00
Speaker 1: we spoke to a family member of someone who has
22:04
Speaker 1: been missing since nighteen seventy nine at a West Palm
22:07
Speaker 1: beach and I believe it's the first time that family
22:10
Speaker 1: member ever spoke publicly.
22:11
Speaker 3: That's right, wow, And that was on our podcast.
22:14
Speaker 1: And so you just told a story about how you're
22:16
Speaker 1: speaking with someone and getting new witnesses and uncovering new information,
22:20
Speaker 1: and we're doing the similar We're doing the same thing,
22:23
Speaker 1: just using a different medium to make that happen.
22:26
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, you know. And the biggest thing that the
22:29
Speaker 2: students finally got because I told them, you know, this
22:32
Speaker 2: is not this is not a research project, this is
22:34
Speaker 2: a life project. Because once you hear family members or
22:41
Speaker 2: friends talk about their loved ones, it changes your whole
22:46
Speaker 2: you know, it changes your whole thought about what you're doing.
22:49
Speaker 3: No, I couldn't agree more on that. Even when Alisa
22:52
Speaker 3: and I first started this podcast, it started out with
22:55
Speaker 3: you know, she just had a love for true crime,
22:58
Speaker 3: and I mentioned her one day that you do realize
23:01
Speaker 3: there's an unsolved murder in my family. So we started
23:03
Speaker 3: out with that case. You know. So I was thinking
23:07
Speaker 3: we would be able to interview people that may not
23:09
Speaker 3: have felt comfortable interviewing things like that. And then something
23:14
Speaker 3: strange happened, at least strange for me. Is I thought
23:16
Speaker 3: this was going to be a handful of episodes. We
23:18
Speaker 3: would help out family, we'd go to the vigil, and
23:21
Speaker 3: that would be the end of it. But then people
23:22
Speaker 3: started to reach out to us, and then another and
23:26
Speaker 3: then another after that, and now we have four cases
23:29
Speaker 3: going on at the same time, and we've made so
23:32
Speaker 3: many connections with these families that how I feel like
23:35
Speaker 3: I want to help them. I need to help them,
23:38
Speaker 3: right right?
23:39
Speaker 2: I still have a bunch of them in my phone.
23:41
Speaker 2: They're friends of mine now.
23:42
Speaker 3: So right, that's exactly how it happens.
23:47
Speaker 1: I do want to ask something in our cases that
23:51
Speaker 1: we have covered up to this point are missing person's cases.
23:56
Speaker 1: Those folks are still missing. Leaning situation is different. So
23:59
Speaker 1: tell us about Leany and how she was discovered.
24:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, so on December tenth, around twelve thirty and nineteen
24:06
Speaker 2: ninety seven, she walked out of the Bowling Alley, never
24:09
Speaker 2: to be seen alive again. Unfortunately, she was missing for
24:13
Speaker 2: thirty one days. She was found floating in the Ohio
24:17
Speaker 2: River on January eleventh, nineteen ninety eight. And what was
24:22
Speaker 2: weird about that is that she was found floating in
24:25
Speaker 2: the middle of the river in the middle of January.
24:28
Speaker 2: So if anybody knows, you know the Midwest, you know,
24:32
Speaker 2: since December and January are pretty cold in this area
24:36
Speaker 2: and the water gets really cold in the river, and
24:40
Speaker 2: she was bloated enough that she was floating on top
24:43
Speaker 2: of the water. Well, that's kind of unusual because if
24:47
Speaker 2: she was actually at the bottom of the river in
24:49
Speaker 2: the car, like the theory says, she probably would have
24:52
Speaker 2: stayed at the bottom of the river and she would
24:54
Speaker 2: have stayed there until probably May when the water started
24:57
Speaker 2: to warm back up. But yet she was floating in
25:00
Speaker 2: the middle, which the week before it rained really hard
25:05
Speaker 2: and the temperatures actually got up into the sixties outside
25:09
Speaker 2: of the river. So for her to be floating in
25:12
Speaker 2: the river, she had to start to decompose, and the
25:14
Speaker 2: only way she was going to do that was to
25:16
Speaker 2: be out of the river on the bank somewhere.
25:21
Speaker 3: So she was.
25:21
Speaker 2: Found floating in the middle of river about fifty miles
25:24
Speaker 2: away from Fairfield. She was easily spotted, which is even
25:30
Speaker 2: more rare, by the helicopter pilots that were flying over
25:33
Speaker 2: the top of the river. They weren't actually looking for her.
25:37
Speaker 2: They were looking for an officer from Covington, Kentucky, which
25:41
Speaker 2: is just on the other side of Cincinnati. They were
25:44
Speaker 2: looking for Officer Michael Parton who had fallen into the
25:47
Speaker 2: river trying to help a Cincinnati police officer stop a
25:51
Speaker 2: drunk driver who had jumped from the road side of
25:55
Speaker 2: the bridge to the walkway side of the bridge, and
25:58
Speaker 2: Officer part And missed and fell through. They were actually
26:02
Speaker 2: looking for him, and they knew they probably weren't going
26:05
Speaker 2: to find him, but you know police officers in the military,
26:08
Speaker 2: they don't ever leave a brother behind. And they just
26:11
Speaker 2: happened to find her and found her floating on top
26:13
Speaker 2: and he could actually tell it was a female body
26:16
Speaker 2: and what she was wearing and everything else from the helicopter.
26:19
Speaker 1: And were there any clues that may have I'm trying
26:24
Speaker 1: to think about how to say this with compassion. Was
26:27
Speaker 1: there anything that was learned that may have indicated what
26:31
Speaker 1: happened to her?
26:33
Speaker 2: At yeah, the autops to report when they did it.
26:36
Speaker 2: At first, there wasn't any visual signs except for a
26:40
Speaker 2: possible bruise on under her right eye, but they couldn't
26:45
Speaker 2: really tell if it was or not. And then the
26:48
Speaker 2: only other thing is that they said she was asphyxiated
26:51
Speaker 2: and she was dead before she entered into the water.
26:55
Speaker 2: So at first the corner wasn't sure if he was
26:58
Speaker 2: going to call it a homicide. He had it actually
27:03
Speaker 2: undetermined at first, and then eventually after he looked at
27:07
Speaker 2: a few more things, he said, most likely she was
27:09
Speaker 2: killed before she entered the water.
27:11
Speaker 1: But her car has yet to be found.
27:13
Speaker 2: But her car has yet to be found, Yes, it's
27:15
Speaker 2: still out there somewhere. The theory is is that they
27:18
Speaker 2: pushed her in the car into the river somewhere and
27:21
Speaker 2: she got pushed out. It was a nineteen ninety three
27:25
Speaker 2: haunted del Sol had a top on it that would
27:27
Speaker 2: come off like the old t tops of a trans van,
27:31
Speaker 2: but the whole top would come off. Well, they thought
27:33
Speaker 2: that she was pushed into the water, the water rose,
27:37
Speaker 2: a tree or something hit it knocked the top off,
27:39
Speaker 2: and she came floating out. The only problem with that is,
27:42
Speaker 2: like I said, after talking to people who have worked
27:45
Speaker 2: on the river and have from Boone County Water Rescue
27:48
Speaker 2: who pull bodies out of the water, they said, by
27:51
Speaker 2: looking at her and her clothes and stuff, and the
27:54
Speaker 2: fact that she was floating on top of the water,
27:56
Speaker 2: she wouldn't have done that in January. She would have
27:58
Speaker 2: rolled on the bottom, would probably got stuck down there.
28:02
Speaker 2: When she did come up, it wouldn't have been till
28:04
Speaker 2: May hmm. Yeah, they call him May Pops.
28:08
Speaker 3: So yeah, when I was reading through that part, I
28:10
Speaker 3: was like, you know, so they believe that she was
28:13
Speaker 3: on the bank somewhere.
28:14
Speaker 2: The yeah, the to the helicopter pilot, the Covington fire
28:22
Speaker 2: chief who was in a helicopter, and this guy that
28:26
Speaker 2: I talked to who actually saw pictures of Laney at
28:29
Speaker 2: her autopsy report things like that, and he's worked on
28:33
Speaker 2: the river for a really long time, said he's pretty
28:35
Speaker 2: sure she was not in the river during that time,
28:39
Speaker 2: that she would she just didn't appear to be on
28:43
Speaker 2: the bottom of the river at all.
28:44
Speaker 3: Oh wow, I went back to the class. Any students
28:50
Speaker 3: that have gone through your class, have they gone into
28:53
Speaker 3: law enforcement any kind of investigation?
28:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's funny. Asked that I have one
28:59
Speaker 2: who it's now in law enforcement in the town just
29:02
Speaker 2: near us, in Charonville. She she actually went for forensic
29:07
Speaker 2: science and then when she got out, she decided to
29:10
Speaker 2: go to the police academy. So she's doing a tremendous
29:13
Speaker 2: job there. I have another one who just called me
29:16
Speaker 2: not too long ago and said that she went on
29:17
Speaker 2: a ride along. She loved everything about it, So she's
29:20
Speaker 2: actually going to going to the academy as soon as
29:24
Speaker 2: she graduates from college. I have probably all right now.
29:29
Speaker 2: I think there are six or seven that are in
29:33
Speaker 2: either forensic science, forensic biology, forensic chemistry, or in crime
29:40
Speaker 2: scene investigation right now that are all in college. So
29:44
Speaker 2: we're getting a lot of kids that are going off
29:46
Speaker 2: to do those kind of things.
29:47
Speaker 3: Sounds like a success to me.
29:49
Speaker 2: I agree, Oh yeah, it's been a lot. It's been
29:52
Speaker 2: fun to watch them go through this.
29:54
Speaker 3: All right, So where do people find your book?
29:57
Speaker 2: It is on Genius Book Publishing doc or they can
30:02
Speaker 2: get it on Amazon as well.
30:03
Speaker 1: All right, excellent, And what if people would like to
30:06
Speaker 1: learn more about Laney.
30:09
Speaker 2: You can contact me at Hubbard r A twenty four
30:14
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. Or if you go online, you
30:18
Speaker 2: can see a lot of the stories that they have
30:20
Speaker 2: done on our class and on what Laney and I army,
30:23
Speaker 2: what Evan and I have done on Lane's case. There's
30:27
Speaker 2: all kinds of news articles out there, so if you
30:29
Speaker 2: have newspapers dot com, you can go back and type
30:32
Speaker 2: in her name in the year nineteen ninety seven and
30:35
Speaker 2: you'll find all kinds of articles about her and her story.
30:39
Speaker 3: Very nice. Is there anything else you wanted to talk
30:41
Speaker 3: about before we close out today?
30:43
Speaker 2: Uh? No, it just you know, if you go read
30:47
Speaker 2: the book, it's not your normal true crime book. It's
30:51
Speaker 2: not one that's going to give you the the gory
30:53
Speaker 2: details and things like that. It's more about a journey
30:58
Speaker 2: of working through the case. How it affected myself, my students,
31:04
Speaker 2: and how we have done something where we're trying to
31:08
Speaker 2: reach out and help others. We have so many cases,
31:13
Speaker 2: not just in the Ohio but all over the United States.
31:16
Speaker 2: I think the number is like two hundred and fifty
31:18
Speaker 2: thousand unsolved cases, and it might even be more than
31:21
Speaker 2: that now. So if you get a chance, read it,
31:26
Speaker 2: see how you know it's affected us, but also go
31:28
Speaker 2: out and look at the stories that are in the
31:30
Speaker 2: back of the book, because those cases are still open
31:33
Speaker 2: as well, and any information about those would be tremendous.
31:37
Speaker 3: Excellent. Well cool, I really appreciate you taking your time,
31:40
Speaker 3: you know, today with us, and this has been a
31:41
Speaker 3: this has been a great interview.
31:43
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I appreciate you guys doing this. It's
31:45
Speaker 2: a it's been it's been kind of a work of passion,
31:49
Speaker 2: so I can't get away from it.
31:52
Speaker 3: You can tell.
31:53
Speaker 1: That's what educators do exactly.
31:55
Speaker 3: We do exactly.
31:58
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this nik episode of Tragedy,
32:01
Speaker 1: a True crime podcast. If you have any information regarding
32:05
Speaker 1: the unsolved homicide of Alana Laney Gwinner, please contact the
32:09
Speaker 1: Fairfield Police or the Butler County Sheriff's Office. You can
32:14
Speaker 1: also use our tip line at eight five oh two
32:17
Speaker 1: nine six eight six nine oh. You've been listening to
32:31
Speaker 1: Tragedy a True Crime Podcast. Our purpose is to honor
32:35
Speaker 1: victims by sharing their stories through the voices of friends, family,
32:40
Speaker 1: and those whose lives were forever changed. If today's episode
32:44
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32:48
Speaker 1: and share the podcast so these important stories continue to
32:52
Speaker 1: be heard. Together, we can preserve their memories and ensure
32:57
Speaker 1: their voices are never forgotten. If you have ideas for
33:01
Speaker 1: cases we should cover, or questions about what you heard,
33:04
Speaker 1: you can connect with us through our Facebook group Tragedy
33:08
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33:13
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33:18
Speaker 1: by visiting our website www dot Tragedy a True Crime
33:23
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33:27
Speaker 1: you'll join us next time