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What I've Learnt - Dr Gina Cleo · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in the habit revolution, there's a touch of love, betrayal, struggle, triumph, humor, and warmth.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a dear friend, a pocket-sized habit coach, ready to guide the reader on their journey to a better life.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: And on that note, I'd like to welcome Dr.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Gina Cleo to the What I've Work Podcast.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thrilled to have you join us.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thanks for having me.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's so good to be here.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's so much to talk about.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where to begin, but let's talk about obviously the thing on everyone's mind is the way that you talk about very openly the infidelity that you were confronted with and how that has shaped your journey.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because tell our tell our listeners, three years ago you discovered your husband, who you thought was one of the good guys, as often we do, was actually cheating on you.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um as a behavioral scientist, you were very aware of subtle change, just subtle changes in connection or behavior, but and you wondered how you missed it.
• 1:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me a little bit about that, that incredible.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think we all have a heave when we hear those stories because we know lots of people that have been, I suppose it's sort of like being a victim of a trauma, really.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a trauma, absolutely.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: So my ex and I were together for six years, and I was crazy about this guy.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, his friends would say to me, Oh, Gina, he just worships the ground you walk on.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: We were that couple that, you know, people would say, I want a relationship like yours.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't just from the outside.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: We truly had such a beautiful connection.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we worked on our relationship, we'd go to couples therapy, we we had the same love language, which was quality time, and we just did all that stuff together.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it was COVID time, and things started to feel different.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I noticed that things felt different.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: But he would say to me, I think I'm suffering from depression.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so whenever there was behavior that was a little bit odd or, you know, something I'd want to question, it would be put under this, you know, this rug of, I have depression.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: So of course I don't want to sleep with you, or of course I am really distant when I come home, or of course I'm being crabby.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I learned to just sort of just sit back and support him and do whatever we needed to do to keep the relationship, you know, steady and together and to get his mental health better.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then, yeah, when I realized that he was actually living this whole double life and this had gone on for at least a year, we'd only been married for six months at the time.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember sitting him down a couple of weeks before our wedding, and I said, if there's anything you need to let me know, do it now because I don't want to marry someone and then find out all this stuff later.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever you say to me, we'll work through it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: What literally, whatever you say, we will work through it.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I just want to know I'm going into this with a person I think you are.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: And he just looked at me straight in the face and said, You know everything about me.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: This like we're fine.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um that's extraordinary.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's just blatant lying to your face.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And totally how pathetic of you, though, to ask that question.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's almost like you unconsciously or intuitively, maybe.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's just interesting.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so so then so he looked at you quite bluntly and made it clear that or implied there was no issue and that it was He's like, you know, everything about me, you know, I can't wait to marry you.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: And he was really the one pushing for the marriage.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: I was very like, you know, our friends and family can't even be here because of restrictions.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't we wait?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, no, I want to make you my wife, blah, blah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: So he was really pushing for it.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I found out that he was, you know, he was into brothels and prostitutes and living this complete double life, it actually shook me.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was, I hyperventilated, I fainted, I had a proper shell shock traumatic moment where the poor thing is just horrific.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's the worst possible feeling when you feel like you've let somebody into your intimate space and they've betrayed you.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, Deb.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, how did you discover this?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: How did you find out?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was, yeah, I was in the kitchen and I was having a particularly lonely Saturday.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he was having a really sort of distant day.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: He was out in the yard and he said, Oh, I'm just gonna go down to Bunnings.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I was in the kitchen doing some baking, and his computer was on the bench.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I just flicked it open to look at a recipe.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: And as I flicked it open, his eye messages were coming through, and there was a live text exchange happening between him and a prostitute that he was just about to meet with.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: And she had sent images of herself.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: He responded like, mm, yum, and then they discussed money.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: He said to her that he was five minutes away, and this is all happening live in front of me.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And hence why I hyperventilated and fainted.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't believe it.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I came back to, I looked through the rest of his messages and found hundreds more.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: I found that he was on Tinder, that so he was dating, or at least on a dating site.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: He was watching a lot of pornography, just a lot of things that I he would say to me, how against it he was.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: And also I volunteered from a very young age with women who were stuck in the sex trade.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's something I'm extremely passionate about.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: I was the head of student well-being at Bond University, and part of my role was to work with victims of sexual misconduct.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: And for him to be going to these particular places, establishments that were specifically hiring women who were trafficked into Australia with it felt like a personal attack because I would donate to these companies that rescue these women.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And in the same week, from the same bank account, he would be funding the industry.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my, and that's what's your joint account.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is literally like fact is stranger than fiction.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: No one, I mean, you know, there is nothing that you could have done yourself to know or protect yourself from this insidious behavior.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's really nothing because he was excellent at gaslighting and had a had a reason for everything.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he would often stop in these places on the way home from work and or on his lunch breaks, and he'd say something like, Oh, the traffic was really bad, or I had to get fuel, or and I wouldn't question why you 15 minutes late, you know.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, why would you?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, exactly.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: At some point you have to trust, yes.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't have married him if I didn't trust him.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, and also because he was so affirming of the relationship, the love bombing, like every day, like I can't wait to come home to you.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love you so much, constantly telling me how beautiful I was.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: I had no reason to doubt that anything, I could never have imagined this would happen.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, what happened?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: It sort of took it to a next level where I thought my brain just said to me, if you're wrong about this, what else are you wrong about?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it must be everything.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you had said to me, I would say, I'll give you a million dollars, the fact that he is not playing up.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way I'd give you a billion dollars.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: You were completely that that's isn't that the that's the inverted, commas sort of gift of these people, the the capacity to complete and utter duplicity.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, you're so intelligent and beautiful.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, how could anyone do this to another person?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I grew up in a very sheltered home, and in my family, there was always honesty, always high levels of integrity where you know we have faith and we believe in a God that, you know, like we just wouldn't do things.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: A part of me actually believed that some people are just simply not capable of doing such heinous acts.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that was part of my naivety.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: But it it really shook me in a way of what else am I wrong about?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it became a point where I doubted that my parents were my parents, that the sky was blue, that we should really drive on, you know, left side of the road in Australia.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: I struggled with everything to the point where leaving my own house was terrifying because I couldn't be sure about anything.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing felt safe anymore.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: I a hundred percent understand why you would feel that.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a similar experience, slightly different context, but I had a very similar experience in a relationship, and I really understand the idea of how agrophobia and that idea that, well, if I just stay inside safe, because everything that you believe is, isn't, you you become it's literally like the rugs pulled out from under you.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there are many listeners who could relate to this notion that when you're betrayed by somebody or when you think you're betrayed by somebody, it's like I call it shadow boxing, because you don't actually know what you're you know, there's a shadow of something that you can't put your finger on and you can't understand, and you can't fight it, but you know.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so therefore, you feel this constant sense, which you're describing so beautifully, that sense of my world is not what I thought it was.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Completely.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I had actually written a whole chapter on this story in my book originally, which um was pulled just due to risk of defamation because there aren't many people with his you know particular profession that live in a particular place.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it was pulled.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: But how I described it in that chapter the first time was it's like I woke up in a war zone.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was asleep and I woke up, and now I'm in the middle of a war and I'm in the front line, and there's all these attacks coming at me.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I I've just woken up, right?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't, I can't fight back.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're not equipped.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: You can't yeah, I can't surrender.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea what to do.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so you just feel like entirely lost in this space.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the hardest part of this journey was actually feeling estranged from myself, was no longer trusting myself, no longer being able to trust my own judge of character, which we put so much faith on in our day-to-day life, and therefore being terrified about talking or meeting anybody who wasn't in my inner circle.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think just it's it's really as we described, it's a trauma.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like a trauma as if you've been in a war.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And also that person's been inside inside a very private, trusted space and betrayed it so dramatically.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting your chapter was pulled and it wasn't allowed to.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any way that they could have hidden who it was?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because really it's quite an important story to tell because it it actually is the foundation of much of your growth and your development and your book and the way that you've developed this whole extraordinary, I suppose, skill set that I know is very important to you.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting that they did that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Is it was that something that you challenged or did you expect absolutely?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I did challenge it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they wanted the story in the book, and I wrote it with so much vulnerability.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: It took me a really long time to get the words on paper because it was really traumatic reliving it and cathartic at the same time.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was actually wonderful to be able to put such detail into the description because it helped me heal from it as well.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I know that every day I would write, you know, I'd end up in tears and it was really difficult.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I did think it was important.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: And why they I guess there's lawyers and then there's publishers and there's authors, and we all have different agendas.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so I can appreciate why they pulled it.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the details would completely destroy someone's life if they were, if someone was to find out the truth, all the detail, they would never get married again.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they would never have a family.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, I was like, I'm really tired of protecting perpetrators and their reputation.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Telling your story, as you say, and I this is what we do on this podcast, is really, really important from a cathartic perspective, as you've outlined.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also about the universality of that experience and people going, wait, that happened to me too.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, oh, I'm not alone in that experience.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we know how critical that is in helping others, I suppose, go on the journey themselves and know that there is some light at the end of the tunnel.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's very much what you did.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: How long did this take for you to?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, I have to ask, did you confront him and how did that story go?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So tell us that.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: So after I saw everything, I took screenshots of everything so I can hold on to it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I sent it all to my mum in case, you know, he took my phone or something.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I um messaged him.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: I gave him, you know, he booked in for 15 minutes.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: So after that time, I messaged him and I said, Can you please come home?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's something I need to talk to you about.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he's he just said, Yep, I'm on my way.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: He came home and I was very calmly just sat on the kitchen bench and I just said to him, Is there something you need to tell me?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: And he denied.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Have you had any special treatments lately or met any special people lately?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, I don't know what you're talking about.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Then I proceeded to show him the images that I had discovered and the text message exchanges.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I had gone through our bank accounts and he'd taken cash out.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: And he would always say it was for work and he was going to be reimbursed in his wage and it didn't, and I'd chase it up and just all these sorts, everything started falling into place.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the the images and the text message would align with the dates that these transactions were happening, and so everything was falling into place, and he denied, denied, denied.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Still denied, still denied.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: The hubris of that man.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, but I could feel myself anxious listening to you because I'm on this story with you, as I'm sure our listeners are, because the hubris of him denying this still.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it's wild because the man I knew was the most gentle, kind, soft, loving, innocent.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, his friends would call him vanilla because he was so predictable.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: He just he would eat the same thing, do the same thing.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: He was just so calm and kind.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: He oozed kindness.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And there was so a part of me believed him.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: I but also I wanted to believe him.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: And why wouldn't you?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I wouldn't.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't handle the fact that my world was torn apart like this, that that this betrayal was real.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so that really messed with my mind.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I have all this hard evidence, but here's my husband looking me in the eye and saying, I love you way too much to do this.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: What happened was I messaged them, I had the intention to go, and then I stood outside and I was like, no way, I loved you, you know, way too much.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'd never go in.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's what he said to me.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I there was I was oscillating in and out of believing him and in and out of, you know, I already started the PTSD, these the flashbacks of the photos that I would see, and my brain was fact-finding intensely, like going back into every interaction, questioning every moment that we had had together.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: And then the next day, we slept in separate rooms that night.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't sleep.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: I wailed.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't even crying.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: I was on my hands and knees wailing all night.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Then the next day he packed his bag and he said, I'm not worthy of being in the same room as you.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: And he left, and that was it.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is just beyond appalling.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't even stand up and show the honor of apologizing or explaining, or you'd caught him being as despicable as he obviously was, but not having the courage, like at least if he'd had the courage to say, you know what, you're right.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I stuffed up, or I mean, I thought it was interesting what you described because we all know the good guys, right?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And many people know the good guys which you refer to.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's something, there's some alignment in your, I suppose, reflection and your um, you know, processing of this, that in his attempt to meet all the requirements and standards and expectations of the world around him, and I don't know enough about the details of what that is, that he it was almost like the yin and the yang within him, or the I mean, did you ever in your own mind find any resolution explanation, or do you accept that he was just fundamentally flawed?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: As you know, how did you reconcile that?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: I look back now and I think, how could I have picked it?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: And truly, if if the whole scenario was replayed again, I couldn't have.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because he was so good at justifying the things that were off.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: There was not a moment where I could have gone, aha, this is it.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what I've learned from, you know, the countless hours of therapy and reading that I've done since then is there's a complex called the Mother and the Whore, and sorry, Madonna and the Whore Complex.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's a terrible name, which you know about.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what he suffered.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's a childhood trauma that he carried with him.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I knew he had childhood trauma.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he'd been in the army and his his family had sort of questionable behaviors at times, but I never thought it would result in this.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I certainly didn't know about the Madonna in the Hall complex where we were together.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't something that I was.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Can you extrapolate a little bit on what that is for our listeners?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I've heard it and I know, but I'd like to hear your version of what that means.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm gonna butcher this.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: But basically, my understanding of it is that a man can have, can sort of almost confuse the the love that they have with their mother's love with their wife.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that person becomes the Madonna, their the wife becomes the carer, the nurturer, the lover.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not an erotic attraction because you you don't naturally have erotic attractions to your mother.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, you have this erotic attraction to someone else who is not someone that you would want to have a relationship with, just someone that you treat pretty poorly in a sexual way, and someone just to have this insane erotic experience with, and you never speak to them again.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you come home to your wife who you love and adore, and it's the caring dynamic that takes place again.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it makes sense because you know, the does.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: It makes a lot of sense.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: The women that he would see were, you know, I mean, this guy didn't even like sitting on a bus or a train.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: He was always so icky, he was very like clean and OCD.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: But these establishments that he would enter, you know, they were placed on streets I'd be afraid to drive down.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was extremely dangerous, extremely risky behavior.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: No protection is used in these areas.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, I mean, I there's also that too.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's really interesting, but he also put your life at risk potentially by exposing you to sexual sexually transmitted diseases.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's all of that complete irresponsible and dangerous behavior.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, this is not, while it feels like a very solitary story, I've heard this many times from many women in varying forms.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a really interesting notion that you explore.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's also fed by sort of a lot of the social media, it's fed by a lot of the um media that we watch generally, that this notion of that, and then if somebody's got a predisposition to those vulnerabilities that you've outlined, then it can really blow up another person as he did with you.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the beautiful thing, and to your credit, is you've done a lot of research, reading, self-development.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, it's been brought on by something as traumatic as this.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I think most women I know have been through something in some form with a man that has somehow not been what they thought it was.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And how did you find your way through this?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So he left.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: You had nothing to do with him.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: That was it.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: He left, but you know, I wanted to continue the relationship to if I'm completely honest.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I said, okay, if this if there's a problem, it can be fixed.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And if we can fit if we can fix a problem, we can stay together.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to go to therapy together.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted, I even said to him at one point, if this is a reputational issue and you want to go to a different country and start a new identity, I'll do it with you.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like that I was that is crazy about this guy.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Crazy.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say to him, You're not a bad person.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: You what you did is awful, but you are a beautiful human being and we can work through this together.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I was so conscious to be like non-judgmental and extremely empathic.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I was over the top compassionate.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: My friends would say, you need to find your anger soon because this is getting ridiculous.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: How I recovered was such a note, before you recover, this is really important because really this is very symptomatic of what a lot of women do in this situation.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: You actually chose, then it's a form of abuse, what he did, and there's a form of taking advantage and being opportunistic.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite common for women who are of your nature to offer empathy, kindness, support.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: How can I understand you?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: How can I fix you?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that you were willing to do that is that something I mean, it's really similar.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know how often they say that a woman is abused and she goes back to the abuser in hoping that somehow owning that somehow it's her problem, her fault to fix.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel that you had you were so sort of determined that somehow you could change this or that this was an aberration?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely was.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: I thought we've got our whole lives ahead of us.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: If this is an error, we can we can work through it and we can learn from it.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's going to be hard as hell, but you're worth it and we are worth it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: We are such an awesome team.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this is we're trying for a baby because you want that.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's let's not throw everything away.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it was about five weeks in.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: He was sort of still dragging me.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Along and just giving me these little messages that he still wanted to stay together.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: He'd text me how much he missed me.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: He'd ask how our dog was doing.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like he would message me saying how much he just wanted to be home and all this stuff, right?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: He'd moved out with a friend.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then five weeks since the, you know, the disclosure, I went and saw him.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: I surprised him actually at a tennis match.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I knew he played tennis on at a certain club on Thursday nights.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: I rocked up there after he'd finished.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I just wanted to see you.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: If this is not okay, I'll leave.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And he gave me the biggest hug and we balled our eyes together.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: And he just said, I've I'm such an idiot.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like you are everything I've ever wanted.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: You're the best thing that's ever happened to me.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want you back.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Okay, I will work on that with you, but you have to promise me that you cut all that other stuff out.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'll work on it with you, but you have to be all in.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, Yep, let's do it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: He went home and he told his friend we had this magical moment.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And his friend called me the next day.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, Oh, you know, like, ex-husband is just so pleased that he saw you.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: He's just on cloud nine.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: And here I am going, okay, there's hope.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: This is going to be okay.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: 24 hours later, from that interaction, a friend of mine was in Brisbane and she was at a Christmas party.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: She went to go to a Christmas party.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: She was an hour late.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: She went to the wrong venue and just so happened to see him with another woman.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he had his arms all over her.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: And 24 hours after saying to me, I'm choosing you.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do this together.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so sorry.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: This happened.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I called him the next morning and I was done at that stage.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I just said, You're actually a really awful human being.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I want you to never ever speak to me again.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is it.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that was an empowering moment, but I was broken.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't eat.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't sleep.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was couldn't work.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't dry.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was wrecked.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: I was, I was not, I couldn't even walk my dog.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: I was not okay.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it took time and a whole lot of therapy, every kind of therapy imaginable to get me to where I am.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let me tell you, you're such an intelligent, beautiful, strong woman.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when I hear this story, I have to say it gives me goosebumps.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that lots of women listening will be feeling that because it's so important.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you've obviously, through therapy and on this journey, have realized that this is not anything to do with you.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is his aberration.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's the broken one.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: You're not the broken one.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why you've written this book, which talks about your recovery and what strength you found and how you've managed to combat some of these really quite terrifying and sinister traits that I suppose emerged in response to a trauma.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: So talk to me about the recovery and how you came through this.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Once this is out of your life by great good riddance, how did you go?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: How did you move forward?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: I was terrified to even leave the house because I didn't know what was going to be on the outside.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he he drove a black car.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: I was, every time I'd see a black car, I'd get a panic attack.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: And he flew helicopters.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Every time I'd see a helicopter, I'd get a panic attack.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: So everything was terrifying me.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Whites' sheets, Sheridan sheets, the smell of coffee, chicken schnitzel, which was his favorite food, like everything triggered me.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Seeing an Asian woman triggered me.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: It was just so terrifying.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I why did that trigger you?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Was that he the Asian woman was because he was seeing Asian women at the yeah, okay, just to clarify that point.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he was.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: He he because unfortunately, they're the women who are generally trafficked into Australia for like sexual labor.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: And and I know that because of the hundreds of photos that I saw and the phone numbers that I was able to like look up and see who it was.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: So after yeah, all this happened, I I was bedridden for a few days.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, okay, I just need to brush my teeth.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I just need to get up and just brush my teeth.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I would do that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting because, you know, now if you think of your morning routine, you have a flow in your routine.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: You get up, you put your feet on the ground, you go to the bathroom.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: You've got a schedule that you don't have to think about.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: I seem to have completely lost all sense of reality.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the idea of brushing my teeth, although logically I knew was a good idea.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: I remember walking into my bathroom and having to look for my toothbrush and remembering how this whole thing is done.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I had to like reteach myself that.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it was so exhausting, so fatiguing.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was in bed for the rest of the day.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then the next day I'd say, okay, brushing our teeth was a good idea.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: So let's do that.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'll also have a shower.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Let's have a shower.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then I did that.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I noticed that brushing my teeth the second day was easier than the first day and easier again on the third day and the fourth day.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, okay, this is the neuroplasticity that I teach about.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: This is the rewiring of our brain.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember in that moment thinking, if I can't rewire my brain to get to a point where I'm healthy again, mentally and physically, I'm quitting habits.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I can't fix my brain, I can't tell other people I can help them rewire their habits.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, day after day, I just started adding one more little thing into my routine.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there was a process of two steps forward, one step back.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, something would trigger me and I'd go, I'd be out for three days where again I couldn't push forward.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: But eventually I started exposure therapy.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that was fantastic.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: It was, it really helped me get through the big triggers.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then I did lots and lots of talk therapy.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually, after a couple of months, I was able to drive my car, stand outside one of the brothels I knew he'd frequent.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine him walking in, walking out, coming home to me and telling me how much he loved me and all of that, and not be in the feeder position.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it was such an awesome moment because I had to drive past these establishments, even just to get to work or get to the shops.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I knew that I had to do it like this, otherwise I'd be housebound forever.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I was too stubborn to let it break me even further.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that is an exposure therapy to clarify is the slow exposure to things that cause you anxiety to help with, because in a sense, it was a form of agrophobia, yeah, that you responded to, which I've also experienced.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I relate to that notion as a result of a particular trauma as well.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is a really, it's so hard for people to understand.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you go from a like I remember not being able to drive on freeways and not being able to do certain things and not being able to leave the house?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And very similarly, I applied this as many years ago, similar, unbeknown to me.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing exactly what you're talking about.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that neuroplasticity and the determination to push forward, get on the freeway, get out into the car, get in the elevator or whatever it is.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, it's hard for people to understand.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: How can you go from somebody who's so out there and capable and fine?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you actually just paralyze yourself.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Completely paralyzed, completely terrified.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah of ridiculous.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: My mom, I remember my mom saying, Why can't you sleep on white sheets?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, because it's what I remember of him.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because we had beautiful white Sheridan sheets.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: And now every time I see sheet, these white sheets, I think of him.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not that I'm consciously thinking of him.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: My brain's just associating white sheets with him.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: And now I'm scared of white sheets, which is crazy town.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've never experienced depression or anxiety prior to this.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: So to have these insane panic attacks, I didn't know what was happening in my body.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: All I knew was I couldn't breathe and I was just seeing black and and that, and it was happening in the most random times for reasons I didn't even know until I was had to rediscover them.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Deb, I feel you.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I really understand.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: The interesting thing is, and we know that there's a lot of people that experience this at different ages and stages of life.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm interested in, I mean, there's obviously a big push for meds and medication.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: I personally didn't go on medication, and maybe I should have looking back.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: What's your um, but in a way it meant that I developed strength and abilities, which is what you're talking about, where you actually your neuroplasticity has to learn without that sort of, and there's medication has a very powerful role in helping people through the trauma over the bridge, as we talk about, until you get to the other side where you can develop those skill sets.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: How did you find, did you find the therapy?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Did you need medication to help you through that tunnel?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or did you find, you know, if you don't mind me asking?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: No, not at all.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing's off limits.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: A friend of mine had gone through a similar scenario, and she really encouraged me to start on antidepressants.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I I just had this thing in my head, and please don't take this as medical advice.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is just my brain telling me what I needed at the time.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is if I suppressed any part of this, it would come back later.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because what I learned from exposure therapy is hiding away or avoiding anything keeps it inside, it festers, it gets worse.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so we need to face these things and then realize that we're safe and that we're okay.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the only way we can rewire our brains.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so, although I was not doing well at all, my mental health was like on the floor.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was, I didn't want to take any medications.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to feel the grief.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to deeply mourn my life.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I had space and I was very lucky and fortunate to have the resources to be able to do that, to take months off work if I needed to, to have my mom or my best friend come and stay with me for as long as I needed just to hold my hand and to cook a meal and to walk my dog.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was so fortunate with the support network that I could do it the way that I did.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very glad I did it that way.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: After the after two years, I did decide to start on a very low dose.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: My doctor calls it a homeopathic dose of Prozac, which is an SSRI or an antidepressant.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that was more for sort of lingering, generalized anxiety.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: And all that I was experiencing was if there was a trigger, I would get through it, but it would really exhaust me.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: I would get worn down and I'd be fatigued, and my resilience would take a hit.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: And my doctor just explained to me, if you just had a little bit of support, you could get through these things quicker.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, all right, look, I'll give it a month.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give it a month and see.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I did, and it's it really helped.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was a six-month protocol that I did, and I'm glad that I did that as well.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know many people who've done that, and that's why they call it the bridge.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a cushion while you go on that journey, and I think it can be really effective.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's now very common.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And people just go, well, if they've lost somebody or they've been through something traumatic, it's so acceptable and it's so supportive to be able to do that.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm interested, you did a hybrid, which often is the best, particularly when you're experiencing something so traumatic.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And as you say, you mean you didn't have children, which is yes, you know, therefore, grace of God, thank you, very fortunate.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there are many women that that's one of the problems is they get stuck because they have children and they can't get out, and you know, it becomes a complex cycle.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I love the way the women in your life stepped up, your bestie, your mom.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all I can say is, thank God for the girls in our lives, because I think women are just, you know, and so for you, the combination of therapy, meds, family support, friend support, then talk about this exposure therapy and and about the habits that you refer to in your book, which is really interesting.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so appropriate and so important that people realize you actually do have control.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's the key of what you say in that book.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and thank you for bringing that up because that was the greatest lesson for me is I realized that I could reshape my life in a way that I, however, I wanted it, because I had the power to rewire my brain in whatever way I wanted to do that.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, it takes time and yes, it takes consistency and persistence and effort, but my goodness, is it so worth it?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is I live a life now that I could have, I could have never imagined.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you said to me, Deb, in a few years' time, you're going to be, you know, you're going to write a book and you're going to have this amazing life.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to be remarried and living in your dream home.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: I would have said, you're, you're a lunatic.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: You absolutely need to go admit yourself, like you're crazy.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: But it's true.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly what's happened.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: So oh, I love that.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then we I want to hear about all that too.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want to hear how you got to that.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because um, yes, I I love this story.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Understanding my brain was a really big part of it because I tend to be a bit of an all or nothing thinker and certainly a high achiever.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: And if I, you know, if I had the goals of being the person that I was before the trauma, I never would have achieved that in the timeframe that I wanted to achieve it.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would have constantly felt like I was failing, that I was not achieving, that I couldn't get to the gym.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, why can't I just get in the car and drive?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why is it so hard to go to the supermarket?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I couldn't think like that.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so I made a really conscious effort to let go of the idea of bouncing back.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to bounce back.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to bounce forward into whatever that was going to be at my own capacity and my own time frames.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: And when I say understanding my brain, it's understanding that trauma brain suppresses your prefrontal cortex, which is your logical brain, and it enhances or like exacerbates the activity in your amygdala or your limbic system, which is your emotional brain.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so here I was experiencing heightened emotions without as much logic and being exhausted because these emotions are big, they're big and they just hit me whenever they feel like it, right?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had to just say, okay, these are the really fundamental things that I need to do every day.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that is brush my teeth, have a shower, eat something nourishing, and get some sunshine and try to get to bed at a decent time, even though I wasn't really sleeping.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just started with those little things.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then I made sure that I felt a sense of achievement when I would do that.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds outrageous.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I went from running a global company to being proud of myself for brushing my teeth and having a shower, but I had to change the goalposts.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: And because I did that, and I understood my brain and that when we give ourselves a sense of achievement, it creates a reward pathway.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: And our brain goes, oh, that felt really good.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: And now I feel good.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm definitely wanting to do that again.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it was reinforcing the habits.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember the first day I went to the gym again, it was about two months into this journey.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: I was so weak, I'd lost so much weight.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: I and I was powerlifting before this.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, lifting 120 kilogram deadlifts and really I was like this girl at the gym with a big belt on and stuff.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I couldn't even lift a little five kilogram dumbbell without feeling extremely exhausted.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd get, I'd do 10 minutes and I'd say, I only planned 10 minutes and that's all I need to do, and that's okay.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started really slowly.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: I call them microhabits.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what is the goal?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: And what are the microhabits?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: The smallest viable thing that I can do to get me closer to that goal.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm like, there's no time frames anymore.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: I can take as long as I need to.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I did to rebuild myself to an even greater life.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: It is just a brilliant story.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so true because it's it's interesting how the simple things, as you've outlined, that we just sort of take for granted, suddenly that became quite challenging.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: But how important it was for you to just step at a time, take the pressure off, accept that your expectations had to be much more, much more fine-tuned, shall we say?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and in some form that's liberating.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then you actually, but you did push through things that felt challenging, and that's the hard part, and just step at a time.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so then tell us.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I mean, I can only imagine what you've been through.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: But what I love is that you you sort of came out of the tunnel on your own terms with support.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: And tell us how then your life changed from there.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I wanted to date again because I wanted I wanted to see what it would be like to speak to somebody else.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'd been married for six years.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I wouldn't even look at another person, you know.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: I I might go, oh yeah, that guy's pretty good looking.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh, that would be the end of the thought.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: There was just no, I I wouldn't I my mindset just wasn't open to anything like that.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time I was like, there's gonna be no one like him.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: He was my person, and I was all very miserable.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: And my friends just said to me, you need to just go on three dates with someone else, anyone else.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: And if you hate it, we won't push you to do it again.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: But just give us three dates.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, all right, fine.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I started going on a couple of dates, and oh my goodness, the stories were so funny.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: I went on absolute shocker dates, and I was like, this is actually hilarious.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is great content for my head to be thinking about.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are crazy, some people are lovely, some people are good looking, but they're like, you know, ready to have a baby after a second date.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, this is wild.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is a wild, wild west down there.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: But it started giving me something else, I guess, to think about.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: I also froze my eggs, which I'm really glad I did.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: My doctor was amazing when I saw her a few days after sort of discovering this whole thing, and she said to me, We need three things an STD test, some sleeping pills, and you need to freeze your eggs.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, All right, let's do all of that.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: She was amazing, amazing.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: IVF was one of the hardest things I've ever done, actually.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: The hormones really knocked me around.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: I've got endometriosis and adenomyiosis, so it was really tough.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: And doing it by myself was really tough.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm at the clinic, and yeah, that's a very brave move.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's not easy.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, and I feel like I kind of almost went into this hyper-vigilance.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, all right, daily therapy, okay, IVF, okay, like tick, tick the boxes and just keep moving forward.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but look, it served me, so it's okay.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then I met a man, Mitch.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, it's sort of months later now into the dating experience.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: And dating was very like, I would know in the first five minutes if you and I were gonna continue seeing each other or not.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so picky.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: I just could you should be.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Ruthless, right?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like if someone said that, well, they love their mum more than anything, I'm like, mummy issues or five.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: If they were like, I was in the army, I'm like, trauma, like I was just writing everyone off.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: The poor guys.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then I met Mitch and we met on the beach, and he was freakishly open.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: He told me things that most people wouldn't want anyone to know about themselves.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: And he, you know, instead of saying, Oh, what do you do for work or do you have any siblings?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: like the normal first aid questions, his question to me was, what was the most traumatic thing you ever went through and how did you get through it?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, wow, hi.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, it wasn't that long ago.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: I do dive.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally deep dive.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I felt so safe with Mitch.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's such a salt of the earth human being.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: And when I unpacked my trauma with him, because I didn't care, I was like, look, this is me.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't handle it, that's all good.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: I totally understand that.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: But this is what I come with.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: And he listened, he empathized, he shared his traumatic experiences, and we connected over this four-hour beach walk conversation.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I knew then that this guy was really special.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it was interesting because I thought that I'd done so much of my healing when I met Mitch.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then being in a relationship with Mitch brought up so much more that I didn't realize I needed to heal from.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: There'd be moments where he'd be looking at his phone and I'd have to fight my thoughts that he's talking to someone or arranging to meet someone.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, if he'd go out on like a boy's night, I would constantly be like, is he really on a boy's night?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'd want to come home and smell a shirt and see if there's any lipstick on it.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I was very hyper-vigilant in a in a bad way, but I knew that I had to go through these moments, that I had to fight the thoughts and to have those honest conversations with him, where I would literally say, the story in my head is this is what's happened.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying that that's the truth.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: It probably isn't.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's 99% is not the truth.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: But my emotional brain.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is what my head is telling me.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: And instead of getting defensive, he would just say, That's totally understandable.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: You'd think that.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Here's what really happened.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: And he'd show me what he's looking at on his phone, which is normally stocks and boring trading stuff like that.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Very unerotic.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Totally nonerotic, yes.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: But we were able to work through it through honest conversation, through recognizing my own.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Triggers and knowing what to bring to the table with him and what to what I had to manage myself.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's you know, it took it took a year and a half to two years, but we got there, and it's we have an incredible relationship where I actually feel secure and extremely vulnerable with him.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I never thought I would ever experience that again.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: That is so such a wonderful story.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And are you remarried?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Mitch and I eloped in Mexico not that long ago.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: We literally just went to Mexico.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: We got married, just the two of us, flew our photographer over from Brisbane.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love this story.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it just gives a lot of hope because I think, you know, and as I mentioned, you know, I've been on a not that story, but a slightly different version.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, and I remarried and I had a child at the time who was two.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I went dating with a child, you know, I had a child.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was a whole other level.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: But within six months, I met the most beautiful man, and 28 years later we're still together.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my story.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: But we will, yeah, we can go there.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I suppose why I love your story most importantly is that there are so many women I know who have been on varying degrees of a journey, and it's so important to have hope and to continue diving in and to accept that there may be triggers or there might be trauma, but that it can heal, and that we have the power to heal it and we have the power to actually move forward.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, once you realize you're in control and that no one can take it from you, which you did, and your book reflects, it's a really extraordinarily empowering feeling.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you're an example of it's freedom and you're an exemplification of that.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I think really to your credit, you've also shared your story and written your book with a view to helping others, which is clearly a mission for you.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm assuming this is your is this your main stay right now, or are you doing work at university as well, or what's your Yeah?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I run the Habit Change Institute.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I run habit courses where I train coaches and then everyday people to learn about their brain and understand why we do the things we do, how to create new habits and how to break old habits.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: I also do a lot of um speaking.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I am I'm a public speaker.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: I do a lot of corporate events around Australia and around the world, and then lots of media stuff.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I because there are only two habit researchers in Australia, there's a lot of work for even like corporate habits, how how to help companies with their health and safety measures to relationship habits and parenting habits.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, once you learn the theory of habits, it's limitless what you can do with them.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I tend to have a really fun and diverse array of jobs.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: But the book is really my first and primary focus at the moment because it really is my life's work put together.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: And like you said, it's like a guide.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's a friend that will hold your hand through any type of change you need to make in your life, whether it's trauma or not, it's all sorts of change.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you're scrolling on your phone too much, you know, this book will help you understand why you do it and how to change it.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's actually, I found it just so inspiring.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I just like to say that you really have taken us on the most wonderful journey with vulnerability, with truth and authenticity.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I thank you so much for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast, your gem.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully you'll come back soon.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I look forward to seeing you when you are in Melbourne.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'd love that, Deb.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's been so wonderful to have a chat with you, and thank you for allowing me to share my story.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Absolute pleasure.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to seeing you soon.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Love dear.