Latest / Calm Under Fire / Charles Livings
Transcript
- Col. John Boggs: Well, welcome back to Calm Under Fire. I'm John Boggs and I'm the president of Fortitude Consulting, an executive leadership development and coaching firm. And today I'm joined by Charles Livings, founder of Tip of the Spirit Professional Coaching and a resilience focused leadership trainer. Charles has spent more than 20 years helping professionals and executives break through career, plateaus and navigate transitions. and lead with greater confidence and purpose. His work is grounded in real world leadership development and sustained behavioral growth. Charles, it is great to have you here today. Charles "charlie" Livings: It's an honor and privilege to be with you, sir, and your audience. Col. John Boggs: Thank you, thank you. All right, Charles, many capable leaders. Now, I know you do a lot of coaching, so many capable leaders reach a point where they feel stuck or plateaued. that to happen? Charles "charlie" Livings: Well, you know, there's a lot of things that are going on there. There's just the human tendency that we get comfortable, that we are in a routine. If we're really good and we see a lot of leaderships that work very, very hard at having a very disciplined structure, step one, step two, step three way of doing things. And of course, they get into that flow. They finally get that established and boom. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: As Blanchard said, somebody moves their cheese and now they're scrambling trying to keep up, right? So if we are doing our job right as a leader or as somebody out front at the tip of the spear, we want to get it where it's consistent, that we know what's coming next and that sort of thing. But of course, the world changes on a dime this day and time. Col. John Boggs: Yeah? Charles "charlie" Livings: That's what's happened is the world has changed or the dynamics in that particular context have changed and they're found out that they don't have a dance card right now. And so now I've got to do something different. So one of the keys becomes you've got to develop a ongoing professional development program that keeps you on pace with the changes in your field or where are the gaps. And where are the opportunities, right? Being a military minded guy like yourself, you know that one of the hazards of any situation is to become predictable, isn't it? To be unpredictable, that's what wins confrontations in a lot of cases. By being able to reframe what the problem is, reframe what the opportunities are, and that we have the resources to be able to move into that niche and into that gap. and close the gap to some extent. Col. John Boggs: So when a leader gets stalled, Charles, is there something that you find that's usually missing? Charles "charlie" Livings: Yes sir, absolutely. For me it's really a land nav problem for your non-military listeners. It's about how do you move forward in any situation, right? And when you get out there, you're discombobulated, you don't know exactly where you are on the map, figuratively, metaphorically speaking. Then for me, it's always go back to basics. Go back to fundamentals, figure out your base point, your baseline, and then, okay, well, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: I've got these things in line, this is what's missing from the equation. Now I've got to build a bridge into those arenas or into those skill sets or to hire in smart, really smart people, get more smart people around me, check in with my network and just verify the reality and verify my next steps to move forward. Col. John Boggs: Okay. Do you notice patterns when you're working with executives who are struggling to step up? Have you noticed patterns in, well, just let me leave it at that. Have you noticed patterns in the baby? Charles "charlie" Livings: Yeah, I would say in a lot of cases it's nostalgic. Nostalgia is getting in the way for them from the standpoint of they came in, they were the rainmaker or the troubleshooter that was brought in to cure whatever the situation was. They get that stabilized. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: And I don't want say that they're one trick ponies, but we learned that trick. like I we want to go out and do that show every time. But when a hammer is the only tool you have on your tool belt, every problem's a nail. Sometimes you need a screwdriver. Sometimes you need a hex driver. Sometimes you're going to have to learn a different trick. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Yeah? Charles "charlie" Livings: Old horses like myself, know, where, you know, fortunately I'm in a business where it's all about what's the new thing, what's coming down the pike. And that's where that idea about tip of the spear came from, is that we're all out there at the point of engagement relative to what is it that's coming down the pike for us that's, you know, not just the five meter target, but what's over the horizon that we need to be anticipating building toward. so that we aren't being left behind down down range, right? that's, and I just have the benefit of a lot of military folks have been poured into me when I was a young person. And as a result of that, we all always gravitated towards each other. Either they were hiring me because of shared values, shared perspective taking, shared professional development situations, or I was hiring them for the very same reasons. And as a consequence, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: It's been a great relationship and I've really profited. Col. John Boggs: Wow, you know, Charles, you just said a word that really triggers me and it's, you said values. How does values play into leaders, into the leaders you work Charles "charlie" Livings: Yes, sir. Absolutely. Well, you've got to have that core baseline of who you are and what you're committed to, right? I think there's an old country western song, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything kind of thing. So what is it? You know, I learned it in scouting many, many, many years ago, the 12 Scout laws, right? Those that have worn the uniform, they swore an oath to a certain code, didn't they? Duty, honor, country, those sorts of things. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: So that you have those baselines. For me, it was inculcated me by these former military folks in an old scout troop where it was always about take care of your people first, put yourself last, leave it better than you found it, always seek to improve, be prepared. All of these foundational elements, whatever they might be, you've got to have that code. And it varies by person and it varies by niche and what you're playing to your strengths, right? That's what my old wrestling coach always said, fight to your strengths and get better at that and keep incrementally improving in the other areas as well. Col. John Boggs: Okay. How do you help leaders connect with a purpose, with their sense of purpose? When the momentum is fading, when they're feeling out of gas, so I can't do this anymore, you know, Charles, I'm ready to just throw in the towel. Charles "charlie" Livings: Yes, Right. absolutely so again I use a number of different tools But really what I'm trying to get back to is what are their true strengths? What are their character attributes? I use a couple devices. I use disk. I use Clifton's Strengths, and then I also use the Myers-Briggs Index and then one of the one of the newer ones is the values in action character strengths assessment Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: that's out there. That's a really interesting little dynamic in that I've used that with veterans that are transitioning out of the military to look at where their character strengths that they've developed and honed in the military can then be applied into civilian contexts. it's been pretty illuminating to look at those 24 character strengths that they all have to one degree or Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Well, that's really great. It's interesting because how does identity, because particularly when you're talking about people coming from the military and helping them adjust, how does that identity play into their leadership development? Charles "charlie" Livings: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, gender studies, communication studies are really clear on that in that especially men, we are what we do. So if I can't be a welder anymore, what good am I? If I can't be a soldier kicking in doors and pulling triggers, what can I do? In fact, I remember very pointedly a young E4 that was getting out due to being mid-boarded out and sitting down trying to talk with him. And he was very frustrated. You know, I've been thinking about this for a little while and he said, about the only thing I think I'm qualified for, sir, is to be a head custodian. Because that's, I said, look man, you are a ranger. You have so many skills that you are not tapping into. So let's sit down and break out that inventory. So we started with his character attributes with the values in action thing. We started looking at what his, Clifton's strengths were and where did that align with different trades or different occupational things. He was all about teamwork. He was all about small teams taking on big challenges and overcoming all kinds of barriers, right? Lord have mercy. Think about all the entrepreneurial folks out there right now that are trying to do things that could use someone that's Col. John Boggs: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: not afraid, who's willing to take on a challenge much bigger than themselves and willing to help train other people, right? And bring them with them to whatever the engagement might be. And so that mindset, that's not among the vast majority of people out there. That's valuable just in and of itself. And of course, we run into that situation, right? Where a 65 % solution Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: is better than any 100 % solution that never gets implemented, right? And so let's start moving the ball some direction. We're about to touch down range. Let's just get a first down. Let's just get five yards on this play. We only need three yards on this play. So let's do that. And we see that happening with the entrepreneurial spirit out there right now where people are doing these side hustles. And this month they're only making an extra $1,000 a month. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: Next month they double it and next thing you know it just snowballs and they're off to the races. Now they're small business owners and it brings with it a whole bunch of other opportunities and challenges and growth opportunities. Col. John Boggs: Is there any one mindset shift that helps the leaders move forward faster? Charles "charlie" Livings: I think so. think the biggest, knowing who you work for becomes the big, one of the big eye openers for a lot of them. Where they decide they understand who they work for. And for me, it's Colossians 3.23. That I do everything for the master. And he's putting people in my path and he's aligning me with people. to be able to make an influence and make a difference for them. So I've got to understand who I really work for and why these people are aligned with me right now. Secondly, it's about always take care of your people because they're gonna be the ones that are actually digging the foxhole or digging you out of your foxhole, right? Because they have that expertise. If you were smart, you aligned yourself with people that were smarter than you about. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: doing X or Y or Z. And so defer to that wisdom and be humble about it. Recognize them for the value that they're bringing to the table and how much of a relief that is that they are doing that for you. Take care of them. And I don't mean just financially. I mean take care of them as a person that they are more than just the sum of their parts or the sum of their input. that they are a whole person and be that rock for them that they can understand. They don't have to be perfect. We just need to keep moving forward. It's a game of inches, right? Let's do a little bit every day. Get better a little bit every day. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Thanks I love that. Keep moving forward. Keep moving. That's it. Keep moving forward. So what separates the leaders who are truly growing from those who remain stuck? Charles "charlie" Livings: Keep moving forward. That's right. For that, you know, I really have inspiration from, Poo, I was gonna use his name. General Howe Moore, Colonel Howe Moore. The Saint Baseball, three strikes and you're not out. If you're not making mistakes, you ain't pushing hard enough. Five-year-olds are supposed to be making five-year-old mistakes. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: 40 year olds that are making five year old mistakes. That's a problem. Col. John Boggs: That's a problem. That's a problem. Charles "charlie" Livings: 50 year olds making five year olds or making 18 year old mistakes. That's a problem. You're supposed to be making mistakes. Now that's where you bring a team. You get more perspective taking on it. You get spooled up on AI so that you know how to use it. You can develop context and you get more eyes on target to verify. Trust, yes, trust but verify. Fundamental leadership principle, right? Col. John Boggs: That's a problem, yeah. Mm-hmm. That's correct. Charles "charlie" Livings: you know, a seasoned colonel like yourself, you lived and died by that, right? And of course, general officers do as well. But that's why General Moore's expression about, you know, this ain't baseball, three strikes and you're not out. There's always something else we can do. Let's keep focused on the problem. Don't worry about the emotions right now. We'll do that in the after action review. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: or in the survey afterwards and we do it with an eye to getting better so that we're not in that pickle next time. Or we're in a different pickle, maybe. That's the way it goes. Col. John Boggs: That different pickle, that could be equally as challenging. Charles "charlie" Livings: It's going to be because you haven't been there before and that's that's the difference between the seasoned person right or we'll talk about veterans But I don't want to get the metaphor mixed up But those seasoned people that have been in that pickle before they've been in the sauce They're the ones that tend to have a calm head in this particular situation. I know where my strengths from I know who put me here and so Col. John Boggs: There you go. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: Sometimes it's self-inflicted. I can't blame that on the master, I can't. It's my time to learn, the easy way or the hard way, depending on how we want to look at it. And so I use my own experience as that mirror for a lot of folks, even though I may not have been exactly in that pickle before. I know somebody, and that's where your networking becomes so important, that you're talking to people. Not this pitch slapping crap that everybody's trying to do on LinkedIn now, but hey, I need to know what you know. I need to know lessons you've learned. And that's exactly, I think, how you and I came to each other and we had an initial conversation. And then based on that conversation and our alignments, we need to know more about each other. And hence, we moved into a more detailed conversation and you're kind enough to say, hey, I got to share Charlie with more people. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: And again, truly honored to be doing that with you, And so thank you for the opportunity. Col. John Boggs: Yeah. No, this is my honor. This is my honor to have you on the show. Charlie, can you tell us about... a difficult situation, more importantly, a moment when someone you've coached or you've worked with, they had to make difficult leadership decisions and they needed help to move forward. I mean, they froze. Yeah. Charles "charlie" Livings: Yeah, yeah. My favorite example is, I say he's a young man, he just turned 50. One of my kids, because they called me the old man at the time. I had a team of retired NCOs that was working for me. This guy was an 11 Bravo through and through, really proud of being the door kicking, trigger pulling, knuckle dragging grunt. He didn't go so far as to talk about Col. John Boggs: Okay, he's a young man. infantry. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: pokes, but he cared himself that way. Pardon me. Our pollen is horrible down here. But we were having some challenges between ourselves and another part of the organization. It wasn't that they were bad or anything like that or doing anything, but there was a difference of opinion about how to approach a particular situation. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: where we had been outperforming them on regular basis and that sort of stuff. And his NCO training reared its head and he wanted to charge the hill and take some scouts and that kind of stuff. he did not understand why I was not upset and emotional about it like he was. So he came to me very challenged by that. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: And I had to just go back to fundamentals with him about it, you you're upset for me. I really appreciate that. I'm honored that you think that. But I have a different perspective because you're confused about who I work for. You think I work for them and I don't. I work for the master. The master has put me here. I'm helping them. We were the first satellite office that they had stood up. I was a civilian, the rest of them were former military, they had a military way of doing things, and then of course we were all about transition, moving people outside of the military and into civilian roles. So I have a position, an informed position based on having been in that space for a couple decades. So I wasn't... Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: It was not the urgency, it was not the exigency that he perceived. And so by giving him perspective that we already had three years into this same challenge and they were slowly turning the battleship, which takes about 10 miles. Now they have bow boosters so that it doesn't take that long to turn them. But at that time it was Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: It was a painful process and of course his way was to go in and just take out the opposition as opposed to no, we've got to coach them. We've got to be patient. We have to be empathetic. We have to take perspective on this as you know, look back where were they six months ago versus where are they now? And they're making inroads and just continue with steady, it will win the race as opposed to worried about sprint or crushing. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: whatever the opposition or barriers were at the time. So my advice in most of those situations is take a tactical pause. Take a breath or two, reflect, reflect on where you were a year ago versus where you are now. Look at how you got there. Look at what have been the improvements that you've made. Build off of the improvements. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Good. Charles "charlie" Livings: we know that positive reinforcement is always more effective than negative reinforcement. Pardon me, not that we shouldn't have counseling sessions, but always build on the positive. Now, of course, if it's illegal or immoral or unethical, those are different situations. But if it's about professional disagreements or professional misunderstandings, those are different conversations. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: And so we've got to keep it in mind about is it illegal? Is it immoral? Was it unethical or unprofessional? If it's not those things, then it's really just about a difference of opinion. And hey, we can set up an alpha group and a beta group, and we can compare and contrast and see which is going to be the most viable for us, right? And enroll with it and develop best practices from both sides of the equation and then collaborate and make it. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: unified back around the curve. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. You know, Charlie, that's wonderful. When you're working with senior leaders... Now this is just something that I found. When you're working with senior leaders, they tend to, they suffer silently. They really do, they suffer silently. They always look calm, cool under pressure. They always look, meanwhile, inside is completely chaotic. Getting them to open up has always been a challenge. I mean, for people who do what we do, that's a bit of a challenge. Is there anything in particular that you do to get them to open up? Charles "charlie" Livings: Well, that's where the resilience building leadership framework becomes really important to understand. Leaders have to trust their subordinates. There is a level of proficiency that has to happen, but subordinates are not going to be able to trust leadership until leadership demonstrates trust in the subordinates. For me, Col. John Boggs: huh. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: where I come at this is to know that we're all dealing with that imposter syndrome, that ducks on a pond metaphor that on the surface it's all calm but under the water, them little feet are paddling, paddling, paddling. And so it becomes, we give them techniques to deal with that. Obviously journaling is a great way to do that. Having those networks and of course to have me as their coach and their confidant that they can have that outlet to bounce ideas off of, to be a sounding board. My wife and I, have to have the flag, right? That this is a rant, I just want you to listen, I don't expect any input, but I just need to unload this on something. And then Abraham Lincoln was notorious for it in that he wrote letters to himself. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: about different things to work it out in his mind. We can do that with AI now. We can set up symposia with AI to say, would Aristotle say about this? What would Socrates say about it? What would Peter Drucker say about this? And so on down the line, or whoever the smart person in the room is relative to a particular train of thought that we're trying to develop. So I think perspective taking is really key on any of that. I think having a confident, Col. John Boggs: and Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: whether it be a coach or a minister, some relationship along those lines, that you can just check your reality. But getting back to Lincoln, there was one letter that he, and of course he wrote a lot of these letters that he never sent. And one of the best leadership lessons that I ever remember is from one of those letters. And he wrote, and I don't remember which, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: person it was that he was talking about, it doesn't matter. But he says, I don't like him very much, whoever this figure was. And then he wrote, I must get to know him better. So Lincoln's leadership principle was, I have to find something in common with him that is likable. Now, I'm going to say that the vast majority of folks, there's something. Col. John Boggs: Interesting. Charles "charlie" Livings: I will also say there's probably some psychopathies out there that there's nothing much that you can find to like about them, but you got to work at it. And this is where real leadership comes to bear, that you're able to put your bias aside. You're trying to actually look at opportunities to build relationship with that person. You and I have had clients that no matter what our advice was to them, Col. John Boggs: Thank Thank Mm-hmm. Charles "charlie" Livings: they chose to go out in a different path. They told us what they wanted to do, and that's what they went and did anyway, despite our best recommendations. And then they want to turn and say, why'd you let me do that? And I'm like, because you're grown. Col. John Boggs: That's true. What a thought. Oh my. Oh my. Charles "charlie" Livings: I tried to I tried to lay it out for you. My bad. I didn't communicate. We have a failure to communicate here, right? So. Col. John Boggs: my, Charlie, after years of helping people evolve, helping helping leaders evolve and, all the ups and downs that I know that takes and you know that takes what continues, what continues to inspire you to keep doing this work. Charles "charlie" Livings: Yes, sir. All right. What inspires me? I love seeing the light come on. I love seeing people going out and you know, I'm an old wrestler and a wrestling coach and so that kid that goes out there and wins the takedown, that kid that goes out and gets his first win or his first pin, right? They are on cloud nine. When it works for them, my public speaking students, the same kind of thing happens for them that this stuff really works. Like I would give them a serpent instead of a fish. It amazes me that they get across that hurdle. Col. John Boggs: Exactly. Yeah. Charles "charlie" Livings: And it's like, wow, this stuff really works. It really has made a difference. I love hearing that. I love to help people help themselves. And so that confidence, that self-esteem, that sense of belonging, that value that they now have for themselves and what they can bring to the team, what they can bring to the table, that's what inspires me. And so with that, And it's really not. I don't want say it's not hard, but it's not hard. It's about being personable and identifying with the person on the other side of the desk or the other side of the table and just being human, just being real with people. I love learning and so that's my thing. I'm learning about other people, I'm learning about what their interests are and so I get excited about that and I get excited when they learn something and they're excited about having mastered something and having confidence and command of it. Col. John Boggs: Charlie. Mm-hmm. Charlie, for listeners who want to connect with you, someone stops and says, hey, I like that guy. I like the cut of his jib. I want to work with him. I need some help, and he's the right guy for me. How do they reach out to you? Charles "charlie" Livings: I'm very easily to see on LinkedIn. I'm there and then of course they can reach out to us at tipofthespearprofessionalcoaching at TOSprocoaching.com and then my email is very simple at CLivings at TOSprocoaching.com. But I'm mostly on LinkedIn and very easy to find that. Col. John Boggs: pro- Okay, it's TOSProCoaching.com and to reach you personally, would, your email is... Charles "charlie" Livings: ProCoaching.com. See livings at TOSProCoaching.com. Col. John Boggs: C.Livings, okay. C.Livings at TOSProCoaching.com, tip of the spear. I love it. Charlie, thank you very much. This was thoughtful. It was wonderful. It was a great conversation. I loved it. I love to talk with another coach and it's just great. And thank you very much. Thank you very much. Charles "charlie" Livings: Yes, sir. My privilege and honor be with your listeners and let me know what else I can do for you or them anytime. Col. John Boggs: Thanks, Charlie. And to the listeners, leadership, it's too important to get wrong, folks. It's just too important to get wrong. So stay steady, lead well, and that's it out here.