Latest / UK Column Radio / Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 14

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Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 14 · UK Column Radio

0:30
None. My video that I did was former
0:40
Angus since you yourself were a bit of a former regenerative
0:43
farming and one of the comments that I received, I think it was
0:48
actually in in the UK column forum when someone said this is
0:53
not actually scalable. What are what are your thoughts,
0:57
Charles? That's, that's an interesting
1:00
point. I, I think my first question,
1:04
well, what is meant by scalable? Because if people are, if people
1:09
are thinking that there's a model that works on a small
1:13
scale, but really we need to do it on an industrial scale, then
1:16
I would say they're immediately missing the point and completely
1:19
on the wrong track. Which is not to say I'm
1:21
attacking whoever it is that did ask that, but the point with
1:26
what Angus is doing, what anyone's doing, is that it's got
1:29
to be situation specific. So his raising of, let's say
1:34
cattle, pigs and chickens is going to work for him given the
1:39
conditions at Spear where he is. But you're going to be finding
1:44
that somewhere else. Those conditions don't present
1:47
themselves and therefore you'll have to think differently in
1:50
terms of the the specifics. But the principle should be the
1:53
same. And I think that's what it's all
1:54
about here. It's it's, it's the principle.
1:56
And he is demonstrating the, the, the sort of the front end
2:01
of it, the first bit, how to achieve the dual benefit of
2:07
delivery of improvement to the environment via, as he says, the
2:13
enhancing of the soil and in particular carbon and nitrogen
2:17
fixing, as well as the improvement of the health of the
2:22
livestock that he's got on the ground.
2:24
And, and the, the synergy between those two things and how
2:27
they, you know, in effect there, that's part of an upward spiral.
2:31
The other side of it, which I think people are are yet to
2:34
grasp for perfectly understand, understandable reasons are that
2:39
once that is converted into produce for human consumption,
2:45
you've, you've got two things to deal with.
2:47
I think first of all, the, the, the pricing, let's say the
2:52
pricing of it and, and people's understanding of how quality and
2:58
price relate to one another. Because I think there's people
3:01
are put off to a large extent by the idea that they might be
3:05
paying more for food, but they're not qualifying what
3:08
exactly they're getting from that, which leads into the
3:10
second point, which is what Angus would describe as nutrient
3:13
density. So ultimately, what it means is
3:17
you need a smaller volume of better food.
3:21
And I think that's completely reinforced by, let's say, in the
3:27
conversations that you've had in recent months.
3:29
The two that spring very obviously to mind would be those
3:32
with Tim Noakes and Zoe Harkin. And I absolutely challenge
3:38
anybody to do this. I don't mean this in a
3:39
confrontational way. I mean a really positive way if
3:43
if you're considering what your body needs, then there are many
3:47
ways in which you can quite simply test this.
3:49
And there's no, I don't think there's really any serious doubt
3:54
about the value of animal products in the progress of the
4:00
human form as we consider it to be today.
4:04
And I think the only regression that we are susceptible to is
4:10
due to the way in which diet that is not human specific or
4:16
human suitable has pervaded our culture and completely knocked
4:20
everybody off kilter, both physically and more disturbingly
4:24
mentally. And I think when I, when I say
4:25
disturbingly, the, the thing, I, I think I've talked about this
4:28
before, but whilst it is easy to make a physical appraisal of
4:33
whether or not you're in a good condition with, you know, in
4:38
relation to say, your peer group or to any other sort of metric
4:42
that you choose to evaluate mental capacity in an absolute
4:46
sense is very, very difficult thing to do because you don't
4:49
know what your brain would have been capable of or is capable of
4:54
until you try. So going back to the the
4:57
question on the scalability, my answer to that would be yes, it
5:02
is absolutely scalable, but it does require that whole chain to
5:06
make sense to everybody that's going to be a part of it.
5:09
Therefore, Angus's model, which is to put together a system that
5:14
delivers those benefits at at source, at on the literally on
5:19
the ground, translating through to a better life for the people
5:23
that are consuming that and everybody along the way in in
5:26
the the sort of business environment has to make sense
5:30
and that can be put anywhere. And this I mean, I had talked
5:36
well, I think I spoke to Angus, you know, kind of longer
5:41
interview. I must have been a year and a
5:44
half ago, I think and, and in quite close proximity that spoke
5:47
to Julian Rose, who demonstrates absolutely that it can be done
5:51
because he's talking about it thousands of miles away and how
5:54
he got into this in the 1970s in the United Kingdom.
5:57
So so yes, it's totally scalable.
5:59
However, if people are saying, well, he's, he's able to do this
6:03
on what might be regarded as a relatively small scale and we
6:06
need to do it across thousands and thousands or hundreds of
6:09
thousands of hectares. Well, that, that, that just
6:12
doesn't make sense. The, the you'll, you'll then,
6:15
unless you're going to be subdividing all of that, you'll
6:18
then strength absolutely straight back into the area of
6:22
monoculture and in in intensity. That is what the main big sort
6:28
of, you know, big farm, big food industries have been doing now
6:32
for, for decades to the detriment of both animals and
6:35
humans. And of course the environment as
6:38
it should probably be regarded as opposed to the way in which
6:40
it's been hijacked by the unfortunate climate alarmists.
6:44
So sorry, not a, not a short answer, but I think it is it, it
6:48
is something that I, I just consider to be so important
6:51
because it, it, it is made to seem more challenging and more
6:57
uncertain than I think it should be.
7:00
And I think Angus puts it across very, very well.
7:02
And, and he's running a business as well.
7:05
If it didn't work in a country where there's not the degree of,
7:11
you know, well what we have come to call support by way of
7:17
subsidy, If that doesn't exist in South Africa, which it
7:20
doesn't, then why on earth would he be doing it?
7:25
There's a there's a host of issues here, right?
7:27
So each of our countries now has huge populations.
7:32
So what is it in the UK at the moment?
7:34
Sixty, 70 million, some, some are approaching 70 million or
7:37
something. And those people have to be fed.
7:43
But we, the lifestyle choices that we are being encouraged to
7:48
accept, involve entertainment and involve holidays and involve
7:55
things that we want to spend our money on.
7:58
We have systematically built a farming industry which is so
8:06
running on such narrow margins that they are increasingly
8:12
intensively farming. It's, as Charles said, producing
8:17
a product which is devoid of the nutrients that we actually need.
8:20
And so we're having to consume more and therefore we need more
8:24
industrialization to provide the the more that we need.
8:28
But, but it's also cheaper. So, you know, whether this is
8:34
scalable or not is dependent, in my opinion, on whether we're
8:39
prepared to pay for it to be scalable because it'll only
8:43
scale by having more. Maybe I'm ready to tell me if
8:48
I'm wrong here, Charles. But but you know, these, these
8:50
are relatively small enterprises.
8:51
They're not intensively farmed, they're not industrial.
8:54
Therefore we need more people doing them.
8:58
So we have replaced the small farmer in the UK and the EU and
9:02
in the United States with the industrialised super farms that
9:06
that, you know, frankly in the United States they're they're an
9:10
order of magnitude bigger than the UK.
9:11
But still we have these industrialised super farms in
9:14
the UK that, that are just producing rubbish at, at low
9:22
cost and going through the supermarkets at low cost.
9:27
And therefore we're spending a small proportion of our salaries
9:29
on food and that's giving us all kinds of income for other forms
9:34
of for forms of entertainment that we couldn't have imagined
9:37
100 years ago. This this a theme of the
9:43
conversation that we've had German from the beginning has
9:46
been the lifestyle choices that we make.
9:49
And this this is another one. And, and my personal view is
9:52
that, that we should be seeking out the farmers who are prepared
9:56
to to operate on the regenerative model or, or a
10:00
model that that we believe is producing a higher quality,
10:04
higher nutrient dense product, even if that costs significantly
10:10
larger proportion of our income than than we might otherwise
10:14
like to. And we have to make those, we
10:16
have to make those lifestyle choices and decide whether
10:18
whether we want to, where we want to put our money.
10:22
And and it seems to me that if we if we make the correct
10:24
choices, that then we naturally will create a farming base which
10:31
which is providing the right kind of product.
10:33
Yeah, but I mean, Angus made the point a couple times actually,
10:38
which he said, is it actually more expensive because what is
10:42
the value of your health? Well, that that that is
10:46
absolutely, I completely agree with that, that that is
10:48
absolutely a point that I've been trying to make for quite
10:51
some time now. You know, if we are, if we're
10:54
looking at the world and we're saying that the world is not
10:56
functioning the way that we want it to work.
10:58
If we're saying that that the people that are running the
11:01
show, the corporate interests, the profiteering, if we're
11:03
saying that this is not the type of world we want to live in,
11:07
then, you know, the choices begin with us and where we are
11:11
prepared to put our money. And if we keep putting our money
11:13
into those corporations and those corporations are going to
11:16
continue to flourish and we're going to end up with worst
11:19
quality food. You know, we know the direction
11:21
this is going in. They, they, they, the news this
11:25
week was that now we're starting to see lab growing salmon.
11:29
You know, it's called lab growing.
11:30
We, we, we shouldn't call it lab growing because it's not men in
11:33
white coats in, in some clean environment.
11:36
That's, that's producing this stuff.
11:37
It's industrial factory produced, you know, salmon now
11:44
and is, is that something that we, we really want to eat or do
11:47
we want to eat something which is being, which is being grown
11:51
in a, in a natural way? I, I don't think I want to be
11:56
eating this artificial stuff. I mean, I have to admit, in the
12:00
past, I've, I've seriously given a serious consideration because,
12:03
you know, I'm, I would have have, from an ethical point of
12:08
view, considered it potentially a better solution than than
12:13
killing. But you know, this is on the
12:15
other hand, killing is a natural part of life and, and maybe we
12:18
shouldn't be afraid of that either.
12:19
So, so you know, it, it, it all comes down to our personal
12:23
decisions about where we want to put our money.
12:25
And and the idea of some Bill Gates inspired lab, so called
12:30
lab grown meat substitute is not something that appeals to me.
12:35
And I would rather see my money going to the likes of Angus,
12:39
even if that means that it is actually going to cost a little
12:42
bit more. And you know, I take his point,
12:45
it doesn't have to cost the earth.
12:48
I'm sure it's going to cost more than an industrialised process
12:51
that I'm sure it must do. Is that am I wrong with that
12:54
Charles? Well, this is the thing.
12:57
It depends how you how you regard it.
13:01
What what is enormously in favour of the regenerative model
13:06
or anything that's akin to it is that you have either minimal or
13:10
no inputs at all. So where orthodox farming is
13:14
having to use not. Well, it depends what what sort
13:18
of farming you're talking about. But typically if, if there's any
13:22
arable activity that will mean the, the constant use of
13:29
fertilisers, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, all that
13:32
sort of thing. And that is a, a very
13:36
destructive cycle, very obviously destructive cycle.
13:40
There's no, there's no debate about that.
13:41
Even the people that are doing it realise that they are
13:44
degrading the very ground that they're trying to ask to produce
13:47
what it is that they want to try to make money from.
13:50
I think just just going back to where it's gone wrong in a
13:53
business sense is that on the scalability side of it, the only
13:57
people that are suited by this model now are the absolutely
14:01
gargantuan players who are able to rely on very few staff, on
14:08
lots of technology, on some very, very clever bits of
14:11
equipment. I, I'm, I'm not in any way
14:13
dismissing the incredible development, if that's the right
14:17
word of the methods because it's, it's become a, a very
14:23
skilled, very, very efficient process, but that doesn't make
14:25
it right. However, there's a, there's a
14:28
huge BLOB in the middle of farms, particularly in this
14:34
country. And I would put it that this is
14:36
the case in, in any country where farming subsidy exists, or
14:40
indeed where the marketplace is similar to that of the United
14:43
Kingdom. There are an awful lot of farms
14:45
occupying the middle ground who have been convinced to try to
14:48
farm in that way, but they are the wrong size and therefore it
14:54
doesn't make sense for them to do it because the margins are
14:58
far too tight and it can't be made to work.
15:00
Which is why we go back to this subsidy driven absurdity of
15:04
people continuing to do the same thing year after year, in many
15:08
cases actually getting a return that is lower than the cost of
15:13
all the inputs in the 1st place. Which why would anyone do that?
15:18
And OK, you might say, well that's because people have got
15:23
it, because they realise they've got to feed the nation.
15:25
Well that certainly in the United Kingdom that that I'm
15:27
afraid is, is, is fast because people, some people, some
15:33
farmers might genuinely believe that that is a call that they
15:37
are answering. But the evidence does not point
15:41
towards that at all. The self sufficiency slash food
15:44
security figures don't back that up, not even slightly.
15:48
And also if there were still any doubt, you only have to look at
15:53
the uptake of the various environmental Land Management
15:56
schemes that have specifically encouraged farmers to take land
15:59
out of production so that that's a non starter.
16:02
But nonetheless, there are an awful lot of people who who are
16:05
trying to make a business model work that they are simply not
16:08
suited to making work. And to to go back to Angus's
16:13
point about cost, yeah, I would completely agree with him that
16:18
the cost cost is twofold. First of all, if you don't take
16:23
your health and nutrition seriously, although you might
16:27
not realise it as it's happening there, there will likely come a
16:31
point where your system starts to do stuff that it wouldn't
16:36
otherwise do or shouldn't otherwise do.
16:38
It's then up to you as to what measures you take to correct
16:42
that. But for the vast majority of
16:43
people, that means going into a health service, which is only
16:46
very likely to make things worse for you.
16:49
And of course the other great part of well, the sorry, the
16:53
first part of this, this cost is not just the cost to you of the
16:57
limitations you're putting on your own life by degrading your
17:00
own health, but also the jacking up of the bill for in, in, in
17:04
our case, the National Health Service, which already consumes
17:07
half a billion pounds every single day, which is, I would
17:11
say, absolutely outrageous when one considers what it delivers
17:14
in return. And the other side of it, which
17:17
which Mike was alluding to is that yes, item by item, it might
17:23
seem to be more expensive to buy food that is produced in this
17:27
way. But my point is that in actual
17:29
fact, when you compare the nutrient, you know what you're
17:36
able to absorb in terms of nutrients from that particular
17:40
piece of food. My what I would posit is that
17:45
actually it is either the same or not even as expensive to feed
17:50
yourself in this way, but it just takes a completely
17:52
different mindset and indeed way of eating and and the other
17:58
rather unpalatable detail. But I'm afraid to say it cannot
18:01
be ignored because you only need to stand outside a supermarket
18:04
and just watch people come and go.
18:05
So statistics are one thing, but just consider the anecdotal
18:09
evidence. 2/3 of people, 2/3 of adults in the United Kingdom are
18:13
overweight and a third of those are classified as obese.
18:18
These these things are all related.
18:20
So the so the way in which one undoes all of this and creates a
18:26
sound business case for all the people who are wanting to farm
18:30
in a manner that I would say is proper because it does do all
18:34
the things that we want in terms of benefits to the environment,
18:39
animals and human health. All those things could be
18:44
changed by that. And yet we're, we're still
18:47
clinging to a system, you know, and indeed having having sort of
18:51
various food strategies proposed which absolutely only reinforce
18:57
the the status quo with a vague nod to things like human health.
19:02
So I think there's still there's, there's just a, a
19:04
really, really long way to go in terms of understanding.
19:09
But of course, the, the industry pressure and the lobbying
19:11
capability of those that are in control of this is so great that
19:16
to get these sorts of messages out or indeed to allow people
19:19
who want to farm regeneratively, certainly in the sort of the,
19:23
the, the West of the Northern hemisphere, it's, it's a great
19:27
challenge. There'd be a lot of obstacles
19:29
put in your path. And we see that now in terms of
19:32
policy and legislation in the UK that is deliberately there to
19:37
not only thwart people who want to do stuff on a smaller scale,
19:40
and whether that's with regard to selling to the public or how
19:43
you kill livestock or any of those sorts of things.
19:47
And indeed, conversely, of course is is designed absolutely
19:51
to support big, big industry. So, so yeah, it's an uphill
19:55
struggle, but the but the way to make it work is to make those
19:57
approaches to people that are thinking at least about changing
20:01
part of their farming operation to do something like.
20:05
What Angus is doing and and absolutely what he does in South
20:08
Africa can can be replicated in many, many parts of the United
20:12
Kingdom. Of course it can.
20:12
And it is being done by plenty of people as well.
20:14
But again, that doesn't really get get talked about.
20:19
Mike, you mentioned earlier something about ethics and even
20:23
that is is superior in the regenerative model.
20:29
Yeah, I mean, I've, I've had this conversation with myself
20:32
about what, what I actually believe what, what is the right
20:36
thing? I think having seen, you know,
20:40
people like Charles, I mean, I've, I've met a few others that
20:43
are, that are farming on this of in this kind of style.
20:49
And I've seen the way that their animals are, are treated.
20:51
And it's not just about how they're living, it's also about
20:54
how they're dying. And, and the fact of the matter
20:55
is it's, it is as good as it could be.
20:59
And so you know that you've got that ethical question on one
21:04
hand it when I was having this conversation with myself, of
21:07
course, I was thinking in terms of the industrialised process
21:10
once again, which which I just find pretty reprehensible.
21:14
And actually you, you, you experience the results of that
21:19
anytime you buy supermarket meat, which you can tell that
21:23
the animal was stressed whenever it was killed.
21:27
It's, it's horrible. And, and it's not something that
21:29
I personally want to consume. And so so that that sort of
21:36
sparked that sort of sort of internal conversation.
21:39
And of course, on the other side of that coin is the fact that
21:43
that these beet substitutes that are coming along is the question
21:48
of who's producing these. And would I want to ethically
21:51
support these kinds of companies?
21:53
And of course, the answer to that is a very firm no as well.
21:56
I, I'm a meat eater. So I've got to accept that,
21:59
that, that is a part of, of my, my diet.
22:04
And you know, if, if I found it such an ethical challenge, then
22:09
I would obviously have to consider not eating meat
22:11
anymore. That's not something I'm, I'm,
22:15
that I'm even considering. So I've got to be, I've got to
22:19
be willing to accept what the processes that are involved in,
22:24
in putting what I need on, on the plate.
22:27
And that, that is to my mind, begins with making a decision
22:32
about where you source that product in the 1st place.
22:35
And if you want to, if you want to consider the ethical issue,
22:39
then then you start by, by just by actually considering and, and
22:44
working to, to find a supplier that, that is the best that you
22:48
can find. And of course that helps with
22:50
your own personal health as well.
22:53
But you know, this, this, the whole, it's a, it's, it's a
22:56
great example of, of the sort of human condition, isn't it?
23:00
Because we're so us as consumers, we are so fixated
23:05
and, and tied to the supermarket.
23:08
And, but at the same time, we might criticise farmers for
23:12
being so tied to the industrialised farming methods
23:16
that they're, that they're forced to use.
23:18
We, we are the, we are the, the demand side of the equation.
23:22
And, and that's what we're demanding.
23:24
So they're sort of forced to, to supply in that way.
23:27
And, and so, you know, this is not the fault of farmers.
23:31
It's, it's, it all comes back to us again and the choices that we
23:34
make. And so you know this, if we are
23:38
facing this, this mad, mad world that we are at the minute, that
23:41
it always comes down to that. And we've got to, we've got to
23:45
really think about the choices that we're making and make the
23:48
right ones. The issue here I believe is, is
23:52
fear actually in that that we are all scared to make these the
23:59
choice to move in a different direction.
24:01
We're scared that maybe we won't be able to afford if we're
24:05
consumers making that choice. Farmers are scared to make that
24:09
choice because they don't know whether they can actually sell
24:12
the product, whether they can make a living doing it.
24:15
It's the decisions that we're making are fear based.
24:19
And this is something we've also got to recognise and try to set
24:23
aside. But I mean, you know, the, the,
24:27
the, on the farmer's side, it, it's so easy to criticise, but
24:31
you know, anybody that's an arable farmer now is, is farming
24:36
intensively. They're trying to produce the
24:37
maximum number of tonnes of, of weight, for example, but they're
24:43
selling that into a globalised market.
24:45
So you know this, they're effectively putting themselves
24:48
out of business by doing this because they are this year, the
24:53
U KS wheat harvest is going to be well down on previous years
24:57
because because of the the weather.
24:59
And but, but the price that they're getting per tonne of
25:03
their final product is lower than it's ever been because
25:06
apparently there's significant supply globally.
25:10
And so they're, they're getting paid an amount on a global
25:14
market, which means that they're effectively going to make a huge
25:17
loss this year. And that is certainly not
25:20
sustainable in the, in the traditional sense of the word.
25:24
So, you know, we've got to somehow I'm not, I'm not in any
25:29
way underestimating how hard this is when we, we've got to
25:33
somehow come together and, and generate the demand and the
25:37
supply to, to help this, this situation change.
25:43
Well, it says Catherine Austin Fitz often says you influence
25:47
people one person at a time. Yeah, absolutely, Jeremy, I or
25:55
maybe it was extra, I can't remember.
25:56
I made the comment that, you know, we we need to be getting
25:59
organised and somebody in the chat box said what do you mean
26:03
by that? And what you've just said is a
26:07
prime example of it. We need to get organised.
26:09
We don't need to get organised necessarily into, into these
26:12
massive sort of multi million people movements.
26:15
We need to get organised in small groups.
26:18
And, and you know, if if a small group of people got together
26:21
and, and started canvassing local farms and saying, I want
26:25
to buy your eggs, I want to buy your chickens, I want to buy
26:27
your beef, whatever it happens to be, maybe that would be a
26:30
good start. I think even before that, the,
26:35
the idea of organisation has to start with oneself and, and if
26:39
if you're going to do any of the things that we've been talking
26:42
about and that I was talking about at the beginning in terms
26:44
of changing, because fundamentally this is, this is
26:48
to do with changing lifestyles, changing diet, changing what
26:51
you're spending your money on and how.
26:53
But in order to make that work, you need to, I, I, sorry, I
26:58
don't mean this in a, in a preaching sense, but it, when
27:01
one does it, one needs to be organised so that you can be
27:06
sure that you have created your budget accordingly, not just in
27:12
terms of financial cost, but in terms of how you're going to eat
27:15
what and when. And I know that sounds terribly
27:18
simplistic, but but I really would suggest we've just been
27:21
talking about wheat. This will upset a few people I
27:25
dare say, but I don't believe wheat has any part in the human
27:28
diet whatsoever and I would apply.
27:30
That with. You all grains, I think that
27:32
wheat has a wheat of course has a secondary benefit in providing
27:38
straw for purposes that are used with farming of of livestock.
27:44
But again there are other ways to manage that as well.
27:46
So, so ultimately the vast acreage given over to wheat, I
27:50
would say should or could at least be doing something else.
27:55
But the the point is that it that it's a massive change.
28:00
And if as a listener, you are considering all the various
28:06
times during the day that you eat wheat and then you think,
28:11
right, OK, well, if that's if that's not going to be what I
28:14
want to do from now on for all for a host of readers and I, and
28:18
this is I'm not, I'm not telling people what to do.
28:21
All I'm saying is that my beliefs are based on, first of
28:26
all, a lot of research into this and the anthropological side of
28:31
it, but also on my own experiences, not just with diets
28:36
but also with the use of land and how soil responds to being
28:42
treated either in a pastoral or arable sense.
28:46
But, but if for the sake of argument, if you are going to
28:49
going to do that, you need to work out how on earth life is
28:52
going to work. Because it's, it is no small
28:54
undertaking changing what you eat and how you shop.
28:58
And so in, in being organised rather than immediately running
29:04
around the place trying to galvanised other people into,
29:07
into action. But actually you have to prove
29:10
to yourself that it does work. And, and, and again, I, I
29:14
absolutely speak from personal experience that this is, this
29:18
has been a process that I have gone through.
29:21
It's obviously such a sort of huge transition.
29:23
Because I, I have to admit I, for one reason or another, have
29:26
never really particularly been into the idea of supermarkets
29:30
or, or a lot of the stuff that is on offer that I think frankly
29:32
shouldn't be. But but nonetheless, to, to get
29:35
to the point where you think that you are happy doing what
29:39
you're doing for the reasons stated, either concerning health
29:42
or the supporting the businesses that you see as doing benefit to
29:47
the environment and, and to animals and all the rest of it.
29:49
And, and then you know, and I don't dismiss the ethical
29:51
consideration. I mean, my, my view of it in
29:53
terms of the taking of life of animals in order to sustain our
30:00
existence, I have absolutely no issue with, and I dare say there
30:03
will be some people considering that.
30:05
That sounds terribly blase, but but we have been conditioned to
30:12
to be made to feel that we should consider that as a point
30:17
of conscience. Well, why?
30:19
Because every time a predator somewhere in a food chain kills
30:24
whatever it's killing, it does not get presented with that,
30:28
that sort of element of of consideration.
30:33
And we don't think anything of it.
30:36
So yes, in some senses we should distinguish ourselves as humans,
30:39
but but to only to a point. I don't want to get drawn off
30:44
totally down that thing, but but the point I'm making is the main
30:47
thing is to be thankful for the animals that in effect are there
30:55
to be part of our food chain and to make sure that we ensure that
31:00
they are looked after in the best possible way during their
31:04
lifetime. And for me, there's no conflict
31:07
with that resulting in slaughter for human consumption.
31:12
What I would absolutely take an issue with is if there is
31:15
slaughter that doesn't result in human consumption and the
31:20
processing of animal products meets whatever for for other
31:26
purposes. But but anyway, I don't
31:28
necessarily want to get drawn down that path.
31:31
But yeah, so, so in terms of organisation, I think, I think
31:34
as with so many things we talk about you before you consider
31:38
really where you're going to go with it.
31:40
You have to be absolutely rock solid in your own mind and
31:42
indeed your own sort of day to day system that that you know
31:47
how it's going to work for you before you can start to enthuse
31:52
and encourage others. And I think like there's so many
31:56
things, if you are setting the example, you're already living
31:59
the life, it's much easier for people to then take up that
32:04
baton or or mantle, whatever, you know, whatever you call it,
32:06
because they can see that you're doing it.
32:07
You can see, they can see the benefits that you're getting
32:09
from it. They can see the benefits that
32:11
you're putting back into your community.
32:13
I mean, how hollow all this talk is about sort of community and
32:18
local this, that and the other. If people aren't actually going
32:20
to do it and they're still talking about it and yet still
32:24
traipsing off to the supermarket and, and, and not following it
32:28
through, then then what is the point?
32:31
And again, I'm not, I, I don't mean to hector anybody, but
32:35
seriously, we've got to be consistent.
32:37
We, we, we can only rant about the, the sort of the controlling
32:41
entities in the corporate this, that and the other to a certain
32:43
point. If we are not going to do deal
32:47
with the one thing that everybody does every day, which
32:50
is to eat. And, and if you're eating in
32:52
such a way that is quite clearly propping up that system, then
32:56
why are you still doing it would be my question and my, my
33:00
challenge. But, but it shouldn't be too
33:02
much of a challenge because the, the point I'm trying to make is
33:05
that this is really a positive because once you do turn that
33:08
situation around, the, the benefits are absolutely
33:11
enormous. But.
33:13
You know, it's it's exactly. Mike, people are consumers of
33:18
dissidence. That's basically what I was
33:22
about to, to get onto because, you know, we, we talk about the
33:30
UK column talks about what's going on in the world.
33:32
We talk about policies, we talk about the results of policies.
33:36
And we have an audience which listens to that and consumes
33:40
that information and whether everybody, us included, are
33:47
saying that this is wrong. But the question is how do we,
33:51
how do we deal with that? And, and it's a very common
33:53
question. Well, what do I do about it?
33:56
And of course everybody's waiting for somebody else to
34:00
come along and solve the problem.
34:01
But this, this extends what Charles has just said.
34:07
If we, if we are looking at the world and saying this isn't how
34:10
I wanted to be, then we've got to, I'm going to use the word
34:14
resist. And resistance isn't just about
34:18
shouting about things. We all, we all do shout about
34:22
things. Of course, resistance is about
34:25
actually doing something different and, but not just one
34:28
thing, it's every aspect. So, you know, if, if we don't
34:32
like, if we don't like 5G, then we've got to consider not using
34:37
5G. We've got to switch our mobile
34:39
phones off, put them in the drawer and forget about them.
34:42
If we don't like the farming industry the way that it is at
34:44
the moment, we've got to stop consuming that food and choose
34:47
something else. If we don't like the way that
34:50
our children are being educated, then we've got to consider home
34:53
education. No matter what the cost is to
34:56
us, we've got to find a way to do it.
34:59
And you know, the, the, the, we, we enjoy our lives through the
35:06
conveniences which are provided to us by the corporate interests
35:10
that we, that we lambast. And we've got a, we've got to
35:13
make a choice about whether that means of that is the, that is
35:16
the fundamental choice we've got to make.
35:19
If we don't like the world that's being built by these
35:22
corporate interests and we've got to stop supporting the
35:25
corporate, corporate interests, that means a completely
35:27
different lifestyle. And that, as Charles has said,
35:31
that's not an easy choice to make.
35:33
But you know, when somebody says to me what do, what do I do?
35:37
That's the answer. You start with yourself and you
35:41
show other people. It's not no good talking to
35:43
other people about it. You've got to show other people
35:45
and people are going to be able to see, as Charles just said,
35:48
the effects of the choices that you're making.
35:51
You know, even to the, you know, I, I've said this before, even
35:54
to the point of just speaking to people as you walk, as you go
35:57
out for a walk or whatever, or going out for a walk,
35:59
exercising. These types of things are in and
36:02
of themselves acts of resistance because we are encouraging
36:06
increasingly encouraged to, to, to vegetate in front of ATV
36:13
Don't. And, and you know, it's, it's,
36:15
it's just choices. That's how, that's how we deal
36:18
with this situation. Reject it and and live a
36:21
different lifestyle. And I'm not as, as same with
36:24
Charles. I'm not telling people anybody
36:25
what to do or suggesting that it's an easy thing, but we've
36:29
got to, we've got to remove the demand for convenience.
36:34
Also, I think people over complicate these things, Mike,
36:40
it's not that complicated. Just when you go buy food today,
36:45
think about where you are going to buy food.
36:48
It's as simple as that. I mean, yes, I know.
36:54
I mean, you know, the, the, I'm not, I'm not going to
36:58
underestimate how hard it can be to, to find someone who's
37:03
willing to, first of all, finding someone who's providing,
37:06
who's producing the food of equality that we're talking
37:09
about here. Second of all, finding someone
37:11
that's doing that and is willing to sell direct to the consumer
37:15
and so on. This isn't necessarily the
37:17
easiest, but you can go to a. Butcher, sorry, I'm
37:20
interrupting, but you can go to a butcher.
37:21
So I, I mean, I've done that. That's what I try and do as as
37:24
as as a priority. You say that before by meat.
37:27
But you say that, but our butcher, our butcher's gone.
37:30
Our butcher, our butcher went 18 months ago because he retired
37:34
and his kids were not, were not interested in taking right.
37:37
So it's not necessarily that simple.
37:41
I. Suppose and he.
37:43
You know that the the the old style local butcher doesn't
37:48
exist in very many cities anymore.
37:52
Maybe if you're in a smaller town or a village that you're
37:55
much more likely to find that. And maybe that's also part of
38:00
the choice of lifestyle is, is where you live.
38:03
That is also not an easy thing to change.
38:05
None of this is easy, but you know, it's it's I believe that
38:11
this all begins with the rejection of the easy and, and,
38:15
and considering actually doing things that are hard and it's
38:19
hard not. Straight to the narrow.
38:22
Yeah, yeah. And it's it, it comes down to to
38:25
our personal morality and personal ethics and what what we
38:29
are prepared to accept. But I mean, I've done that.
38:33
I mean, I've done that. I've tested my own, my own
38:35
ethics. I, against my better judgement,
38:38
decided to take a tour of an abattoir.
38:41
And I actually strongly recommend people do this because
38:44
it will, it will severely, severely influence the way you
38:50
think about meat that you consume.
38:53
Because when you actually see what's going on, it's, it's,
38:57
it's amazing how the theatre of the supermarket has adjusted and
39:02
has rewired the thinking of the average person.
39:05
You don't think about where meat comes from beyond the shelf.
39:09
It's not just the supermarket, it's the whole education system.
39:11
You know, the kids these days don't even know where milk comes
39:14
from. And that's not, that's a cliche,
39:17
but we've heard it so many times.
39:18
But it's actually not, it's not a false thing to say.
39:24
I mean, there are, I know for a fact that there are kids in this
39:29
city that go to school, which is no more than a mile from the sea
39:35
and they've never seen the sea, right?
39:38
So, you know, kids don't know where their food comes from.
39:42
It comes out of a packet that comes out of a a container of
39:45
some kind. And and that that's but that's
39:49
going into a whole other area. You know that that is a whole
39:53
other discussion. Yeah, it's all, it's all
39:57
marketing. I mean that that's really the
40:01
the human fallibility is that when something.
40:06
Is there and can be marketed people will take it up so my
40:10
point earlier about the state of this well, it's certainly not
40:15
exclusive to the United Kingdom, but the state of people's health
40:18
in a general sense. And you can look at this
40:22
whichever way, but if you just take it on people's appearance
40:25
and general sort of levels of fitness which have have
40:28
absolutely deteriorated. And you cast your eye back to
40:31
photographs from say the 1970s or 80s of sort of, you know,
40:34
typically people on the beach because they're, you can see
40:38
what condition they're in subsidy largely in kind of
40:41
bathing suits. It's not because at that time,
40:45
people in the 70s of 80s and 80s had had sort of iron discipline
40:49
and they absolutely refused to take on any of the things that
40:54
we're talking about. It was just that those things
40:56
didn't exist in quite the same way that they do now and they
40:59
haven't been marketed. So at that point, people were
41:02
consuming all the various things that were being marketed at that
41:05
point. And tobacco is the obvious one.
41:06
I mean, you know, you're finding photographs from in particular
41:10
the 70s and before smoking, of course, is, is completely
41:16
prevalent in a way that it's not today because there's another
41:20
marketing con, you know, the, the whole vaping thing has gone
41:24
on. So, so we are eternally
41:26
predisposed to suck up the next trend, whatever that may be.
41:31
And it doesn't have to be to do with with food.
41:34
I mean, look at only this morning I was listening to a
41:38
report that I must say, I really couldn't believe, but there's a
41:44
there's now AI mean. Obviously it's non clinical, but
41:46
I think it's called it's it's something like AI hypnosis.
41:51
But it's, it's basically, it describes people who I know this
41:56
sounds perhaps laughable to AUK column audience, but people who
41:59
have fallen into a sort of alternative reality where they
42:04
believe that AI chat bots that they are talking to are real
42:10
people and are actually invested in their well being and the
42:14
advancement of their lives. And this young chap from
42:17
Scotland was interviewed about some relationship he'd struck up
42:21
with whatever chat bot it was after he'd lost a job.
42:27
I don't know what the job was, but the point is this thing
42:30
encouraged him to the point of him being completely and utterly
42:36
convinced that he would be a multi millionaire if only he did
42:40
XY and Z. And it wasn't, it wasn't I, I
42:42
didn't mean it wasn't a scam. So, you know, put all your money
42:45
in this account and, and we'll convert it into whatever it was
42:47
to I think it was to do with convincing him that if only he,
42:50
you know, he made a series of sort of video documentaries
42:53
about himself and wrote a book or something.
42:55
The return on that would be in the region of £5,000,000.
42:58
So it doesn't really matter what the specifics are.
43:00
But the point of it is that that the marketing of AI in this case
43:05
is so all pervading that people are really, really struggling to
43:09
resist it. And, and indeed, if you are not
43:13
sort of cognizant of this or you're not seeing sort of where
43:16
the influences are coming from, then I would encourage you to go
43:18
and look just as A, to get a frame of reference, go and look
43:21
at Elon Musk's Twitter or X account and look at the number
43:27
of posts he puts out now about his grok, his XAI Grok thing,
43:33
which, which is one of these chat bots.
43:36
I don't want to talk about this for too long.
43:37
So I find it's incredibly tedious.
43:38
But but he, it's, it now has this thing called grok imagine.
43:44
I think so. So now we are in a position
43:46
where our very imaginations are being marketed away.
43:52
So rather than encouraging that brain that stuck in your head to
43:58
give you an image of whatever it is you instead are invited to go
44:03
on to, I suppose you have to go to Twitter in the 1st place and
44:06
ask this thing called grok to, to conjure you a picture or a
44:12
video of something that your brain is not going to imagine
44:16
for itself. And yet people are doing it.
44:19
It it so. So this is this is a marketing
44:22
thing and to get to go back to what Angus was saying it it not
44:27
only are we fallible or susceptible to marketing, but we
44:32
seem to absolutely believe what it is that's being inferred by
44:37
the benefit of the marketing in the 1st place.
44:39
And his example was free range eggs or free range chicken.
44:44
Absolute lie upon lie upon lie. Yes, the idea has been made to
44:49
suggest that, you know, that's kind of a chicken per acre.
44:52
And they all get books to read and they have a great time and,
44:56
and the reality is absolutely not the case.
44:59
They. Are.
45:01
You are yeah, exactly. Yes.
45:03
To imagine what life might be like if they weren't free range,
45:06
but they and they have access to the outdoor should they choose
45:09
to it. But of course it's set up in
45:10
such a way that absolutely they won't be going out.
45:13
So, so all, all of these things, everything we talk about is all
45:17
marketing. The, the another sort of again
45:20
news item keeps coming up now is the closure of banks and how
45:24
it's presented in such a way as to be sympathetic to people who
45:27
want to use banking services. You know, these poor old people
45:30
who can't get to the bank and don't understand anything.
45:32
And this that and the other, you know, actually what, what,
45:35
what's the, what is the underlying marketing inference?
45:38
We're all destined for digital currency and that's it.
45:41
Get on with it. So we have to be able to discern
45:46
where this marketing stuff is is taking us.
45:50
But also how incredibly gullible perhaps is a bit strong, but it
45:54
but it but it might be the right word.
45:56
How how gullible we are when it comes to marketing.
46:00
People really need to evaluate absolutely what it is and look
46:05
beyond when something is presented as free range or as
46:09
even as regenerative actually, because Therese coffee again, I
46:13
mean, what a caricature Therese coffee.
46:15
Who was the agriculture minister in the United Kingdom a couple
46:20
of years ago who is overweight? Quite considerably.
46:25
Well known for smoking cigars? OK, that's fine.
46:28
Kenneth Clarke and drag, by the way.
46:30
Right. OK, yes, actually that's a
46:32
fairpoint anyway. But she was absolutely making a
46:37
case for the use of an extremely deadly herbicide, which I've
46:42
talked about a lot on the UK column News before glyphosate.
46:45
She was making the case that glyphosate was absolutely a
46:49
critical part of regenerative farming.
46:51
So again, marketing regenerative farming has been completely
46:54
captured and the efforts of people like Angus are already
46:57
being wilfully subverted in order to further corporate
47:01
interest. Because guess what?
47:03
You know, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, all those guys are all
47:07
into this stuff and labelling it regenerative.
47:12
So we have, we do have to be very, very discerning and very
47:15
critical about all of this stuff that's presented to us.
47:19
Here in South Africa, I think it was Woolworths.
47:23
I might have it wrong, but there was some lawsuit that involved
47:28
them labelling a whole pile of their products as free range.
47:33
But what they had done was that they had trademarked the term
47:37
free range, which no longer means free range.
47:42
It can mean anything which. Feeds, yeah.
47:45
That's exactly what you're talking about, Charles.
47:47
Yeah, it is. Yeah.
47:48
Yeah. I mean you, you see it all the
47:49
time. You get supermarket brands who,
47:52
again, trademark names that have farm in the title.
47:58
So you have the idea that you're buying something from a farm,
48:03
but actually that's just the name of the business.
48:05
Some somebody there, there was again another one, someone did
48:08
it with, with sun dried tomatoes and they they got round it by
48:14
naming their oven sun dried or something.
48:18
I can't remember exactly how it worked, but it but it was that
48:21
cynical. It's like, it's like the only
48:22
fools and horses Peckham spring water, if anyone remembers that.
48:25
But but, but this is it. And, and so you, you do
48:29
absolutely have to have to look because the moment you've got
48:31
these labels, the floodgates open and everybody comes out and
48:35
tries to jump on it. And, and, and so in a way, where
48:40
possible, I would say that actually the best thing to do is
48:43
to avoid the labels in the 1st place, because by our knowledge,
48:45
they are meaningless or, or at best, sort of disingenuous or
48:49
maybe at worst. But, but yes, now, I mean, I
48:53
every type of chicanery to, to, to, to get this.
48:56
And also, let's face it, if we're considering, if we're, if
49:01
we're still to consider a tall supermarket, I mean, if, if, if
49:04
there's the thought that, well, you know, there, there are
49:06
probably some things in the supermarket that that that must
49:10
be OK or that must be, you know, sort of ethically sourced or, or
49:13
whatever one wants to say. I would, I would say I doubt
49:17
that very, very, very much indeed.
49:19
Because to make it work, to be able to sell to a supermarket
49:23
and operate on that basis, given the margin that you're going to
49:27
get on that and not to have cut significant corners in your
49:30
business model, I would say is extremely, extremely unlikely to
49:34
the point of being not really possible.
49:36
But also just to to be producing on a scale that that they can
49:40
carry that product. Yeah, precludes any kind of.
49:43
Yeah, I think. I think there are some.
49:46
I might be out of date, but I think budgeting, which
49:48
admittedly is one of the smaller ones, I think budgeting did
49:51
attempt to have a process by which they were going to stock
49:55
certain products on a local basis.
49:58
So, so some of their buyers were going to be able to be supplied
50:02
in smaller quantities by businesses that were local to
50:05
those particular supermarkets. But the same, the same probably
50:08
still applies. But yes, absolutely that's
50:11
another thing which takes us back to the start the the this
50:13
whole idea of scalability and I suppose I mean Charles.
50:16
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it but it, it seems that of course
50:20
the other thing that we're used to is receiving product, you
50:23
know, 365 days a year, strawberries in the winter and
50:27
that kind of thing because industrialised growing in other
50:30
countries and imports and whatnot.
50:33
The other thing we need to do is is to consider what a British
50:39
diet should be. Well, that yes.
50:42
I mean. That is true, but that that's
50:44
that's potentially the start of intensely, I thought and very
50:49
long debate because how does one go back to a a particular point
50:55
in time where you say, Yep, that that is that those are the foods
50:58
that we should be eating? And is it not just as simple as
51:02
saying well? That's not available locally at
51:04
this time of the year. Well, to an extent, Although,
51:06
although. I think the counter to that is
51:08
that because because of the way in which horticulture in
51:11
particular has has worked over centuries, the what?
51:16
Well, what has now become effectively genetic
51:20
modification, but was more conventional hybridization and
51:25
selective breeding has meant that a vast number of species of
51:31
crops, cereals, but also fruits and vegetables are not in fact
51:37
in any way naturally occurring. So I think it's easy to think,
51:40
oh, wow, you know, strawberries, for example, which which you do
51:43
get wild strawberries. But but let's say strawberries
51:45
are in season now or apples or pears or whatever it is are in
51:48
season. But in that fact, when you look
51:51
at the composition of those particular fruits or, or
51:54
whatever they may be, they've been selectively bred in order
51:58
that they have a higher say a higher fructose content or, or
52:01
something that actually in terms of 1's body's response to it.
52:04
And in particular the creation of insulin are probably going to
52:09
be more harmful than anyone would ever consider.
52:11
But that's, that tends to be a hurdle that we leap over
52:16
blindfold because you just look at an apple tree and you think,
52:19
well, I mean, you know, that's an apple tree.
52:21
It can't be anything wrong with that.
52:22
You know, it isn't anyone's been tipping fertiliser all over it
52:25
or any of that kind of thing. So it's got to be fine.
52:27
But I, I think in actual fact, that's probably not the case.
52:30
OK, You could take that on to, to livestock as well, because of
52:33
course there's been a huge amount of selective breeding
52:35
there too. And in particular, the results
52:38
of protein in milk, whether A1 or A2.
52:41
And, and if all of this is sounding like gobbledygook, then
52:44
I would refer back to an interview I recorded with John
52:47
Cook, who's a dairy farmer, Royal Milk dairy farmer.
52:51
The the title of the interview is, is Raw Truth.
52:54
And, and John actually going back to the organisation thing,
52:58
John has a fascinating life story because he changed the
53:02
diet of his cattle at the same time as changing his own diet
53:07
completely radically so. So the the process of, of
53:11
getting organised and indeed the multiplier effect from that,
53:14
John is a phenomenal example because he's, he's been through
53:17
himself, he's put his cattle through it.
53:19
The benefits are absolutely undeniable and his business has
53:23
thrived as a result. So I, I really would encourage
53:27
people to go and listen to that, that, that interview.
53:29
I mean, obviously, as well as if anyone hasn't listened to Germ
53:32
talking to Angus Macintosh just recently, or indeed Angus's
53:36
earlier UK column interview, which again, I think was called
53:38
from the ground up, then then do because that's just a wealth of
53:43
information from people who not just know their stuff, but has
53:46
actually done their stuff. And, and I think that's that
53:50
those are great places to start. I wanted to punch the wall.
53:54
When I read some of the comments underneath that interview you
54:00
did with Angus what year and a half ago, whenever it was, and
54:06
it made me realise that there has been such a great
54:10
psychological operation imposed on the average thinker that they
54:15
struggle to get past terminology and labels.
54:18
So the term sustainable has been utterly hijacked.
54:20
So when Angus talks about sustainable farming, people
54:24
suddenly get all dismissive and they get funny about this
54:27
because I think of the UN and oh, he's a grifter, he's a Shoal
54:29
and all this kind of stuff. And that that's why when I used
54:32
the word sustainable. Earlier I said in the
54:34
traditional sense of the world, but word, because that that that
54:37
word. This comes right back to, to, to
54:41
Charles's marketing point. That word has been trademarked
54:44
effectively, it's sustainable doesn't mean sustaining
54:49
something anymore. It, it means Agenda 2030.
54:52
And, and so, and people are susceptible to this marketing
54:57
and, and that applies to the, to people that are considering
55:00
themselves, you know, in opposition to, to, to that
55:04
particular policy agenda. We have in the broadest sense,
55:08
the word, we have fallen for the same marketing campaign.
55:13
And so anytime we see that word being used, we suddenly decide
55:18
that that it's the person is a shell or they're shelling for
55:23
Agenda 2030. It's not the case.
55:25
Sustainable has a word, a meaning in English.
55:28
And, and we need to start reclaiming these words and not
55:31
being afraid to use these words in their traditional sense.
55:35
And yeah, I mean, people need to, that's one of the things
55:39
that that we all need to do in order to resist this thing is to
55:43
not immediately jump to conclusions just because a
55:47
particular word is used. It it's it's like it's real
55:49
Beavis and Butthead sort of stuff.
55:51
And, and we need to, we need to stop that.
55:54
I totally agree. Yeah.
55:56
Again, that's that's all about mental attitude, mindset, all
56:01
that stuff. You, you have to, you, you have
56:05
to own that. You have to own that yourself.
56:06
And, and, oh, we've probably mentioned it before, but why
56:08
not, let's go again. The, the rainbow, the, the, the
56:12
NHS doesn't own the rainbow, nor do the, nor do the pride people.
56:16
They don't own the flipping rainbow.
56:18
That, that is God's creation and we are privileged to see it
56:22
naturally occurring in the sky to great dramatic effect when
56:28
the conditions are right. That's a rainbow.
56:30
So any of this, the nonsense that that is meant to market a
56:36
particular idea is, is secondary.
56:40
So yes, I think we must try, or at least we must I, I would
56:48
encourage people to try to be less, less responsive to, to
56:57
again, what is exactly like Mike describes, you know, it is
57:00
another marketing exercise. We're supposed to conjure a
57:02
particular idea of, of something when, when we hear the word
57:07
sustainable. But, but frankly, we should
57:10
think about these things in their, you know, in their real
57:13
terms. So I think it's very important.
57:16
I'm going to focus on health. And I'm going to go on a
57:18
comments section. Diet, I think I'll tell you, you
57:23
get caught up in that, in that it's not a rabbit hole.
57:27
What is it? It's just it's just like this
57:28
black hole. It just sucks you in sometimes.
57:31
Sometimes it can be and and. It is a trap and you know, but
57:35
this is, this is another area where where we need to resist.
57:40
We need to resist the urge to post negative comments to each
57:45
other and wind each other up and so on.
57:47
This it, it takes us into a bad psychological place.
57:52
There's, there's a lot of, a lot of negativity and in comments
57:57
sections everywhere. And you know, but comments
57:59
sections could equally be used to help people get organised.
58:04
It's a choice again. All right.
58:07
Well, I think that's a great note to come in for a landing my
58:11
controls as always, it's been a pleasure.
58:13
I'll catch up with you guys next week.