Latest / Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast / Darling Bish Hour: SLOMW S5: Part One

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Darling Bish Hour: SLOMW S5: Part One · Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi, friends, and welcome to Darling Bish Hour with our
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: dear friend, Amy Phillips.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Hi, Amy.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: And our dear friend, Melissa Reich. Hi, guys. We are back.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: We are. And you know what?
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: And you are back.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: That's right. For the Your Bish Therapist community, this Darling
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Bish Hour signifies the start, the season eight premiere. Can
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: you believe it? Eight seasons. A verbish therapist. And I
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: would not be here without this beautiful woman, Amy Phillips. What?
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: I'm looking behind me. What? Me? Just this old gal
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: in a snakeskin blouse? What? Stop. Looking gorgeous. It doesn't
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: feel like that long ago that you and I connected
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: and that I started the podcast and then all of
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: a sudden it's been years and I'm on season eight
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: and you're on this journey. I mean, it's just, it's
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: wild where life takes us. It's so exciting.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: And I love, you know, I love your journey and
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: I know so many of your listeners and, you know,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: our mutual listeners really appreciate it. You have such an
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: expertise and such a voice that, you know, we need
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: in this throughout reality television and beyond in pop culture. So, Boy,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: do you fill a void. And do you do it seamlessly?
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: It's so great. Well, thank you, because it does not
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: feel seamless. But Amy and I are going to be
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: talking today about Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Season 5. Now,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: here's the funny thing. I had not watched Secret Lives
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: of Mormon Wives since Season 1 because I was just like,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know that this show is for me. But
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: there is so much to it. And when we were
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: texting about coming back and you suggested this, as soon
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: as I was into the first episode, I was like,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: I could talk about this for 400 hours. Right. So,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it is so rich in terms of
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: like all the different ladies having these different issues and storylines.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: But today what we're going to be covering is, well,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: a couple of different things. So the Taylor and Dakota
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: where I'm going to be talking about sex and love
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: addiction and I'm going to be talking about Darvo. I'm
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: going to be talking about attachment styles because I think
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: what everyone wants to know is what's going on here
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and what's happening. But to your point, there are so
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: many other amazing storylines. Some, I mean, not amazing like great,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: but some of them are very challenging. And so we're
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: just going to mention it all today. We're going to
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: talk about all of it.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I am so looking forward to this. As I
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: watched season five, I actually binged season four first. and
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: then binge five because I didn't watch season four. So
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: it was such an eye opener to take all of
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: this in and just reflect on so much of the
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: dysfunction and the psychology behind what's going on with all
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: these people. And I just can't wait to absorb what
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: you have to say about it. So without further ado.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Without further ado, should we just get into it? Dancing
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: with the Stars. What are your takes on that?
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: No, I'm just kidding.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Do you know what? I was like in my hole
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: for so long of like my mental health and physical
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: health issues. I forgot Sierra was on Dancing with the Stars.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, girl, you got to get
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: back on this. I got to be voting. No, wait.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know if something happened in between that. what
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: like now that we're talking about it. But anyway, that
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: was just my little side note. Yeah, you were shocked.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was shocked.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I came in. I went back to Instagram and I
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, my girl, I got it. She's everywhere.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: You know, I know. I know. So that's a fun
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: little levity before we get into the darkness. Yeah, I
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: want to get into the darkness. Yeah. OK, let's get
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: into it.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: There was a lot that I can relate with. And
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I think a lot that many people watching this can
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: relate with or know somebody in these situations.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Totally. So, Amy, where should we start?
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, as I was watching season four, I
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: wanted to mention before we get into Taylor and Dakota,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: which I think is going to be one of our
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: first stops on the tour. I wanted to just kind
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: of open up the conversation about what we learned about
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Taylor in season four and what we learned about her mom.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: So we know that she was, you know, wanting to
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: connect somehow with her biological father. That's not an option
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: because he had passed away. So she wanted to go
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: to Colorado before she goes on The Bachelorette. in order
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: to see if she can speak with any of her two,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: as she knows she has two siblings, speak to them
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: or speak to anyone that was in his life. So
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Taylor and her mom, Leanne, went back to Colorado. And
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: the only person that was willing to talk to them
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: on camera was her biological father's best friend. Leanne had
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: actually previously dated him when she was very young before
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: she dated Taylor's biological father.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: That's wild. Isn't this wild? And so Taylor's.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Response to that was like, oh, look at you dating
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: the friend and then going and dating someone and then
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: going and dating the friend. Her mom's like, yeah. You know,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: and her mom was very, very closed off to talking
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: about the toxicity of Taylor's biological father. It was an
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: abusive relationship. We should also say trigger warning to those
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: of you.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: It's a great idea. Right.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Trigger warning. This episode, we're going to be talking about
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: domestic violence. We're going to be talking about narcissistic abuse.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: We're going to be talking.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: About eating disorders. Yes.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Disordered eating, sexual abuse, just all of the things. I mean,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I think people probably understand at this point when it
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: comes to these things that that's what we're going to
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: talk about. But it's it's thank you for naming that
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: because this is going to be very rich with a
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: lot of those hard things. Yeah.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: And Leanne, you know, this was an opening to what
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: she has been through. She's been traumatized from a very
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: unhealthy relationship with him. She managed to get out of
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: it for the sake of, as she said, for Taylor.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Once she had Taylor, she knew she had to leave
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: him and leave him far behind. And it was the
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: best thing that she could have possibly done for Taylor.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: She even recollects thinking, even to this day, thinking, would
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: it have been better if I gave you up for adoption?
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Her mom said that?
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: OK, to give her a better life. Right. But that's
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: here's the thing. Here's why I'm so grateful you're sharing this,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: because this is really important context, I think, when it
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: comes to why does Taylor behave the way she does?
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: This is really rich, important context that this is what
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: happened before. Now, do we know, was Taylor a baby
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: when her mother got out of this relationship with her
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: bio dad? OK, because.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Because that is a factor too, right, with kids when
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: they witness domestic violence and that has long-term adverse childhood,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: you know, experiences and impacts. And that was.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Shocking to me that she was an infant, you know, because,
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: and I didn't realize that her stepfather, who she really
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: does call her dad, entered into their lives when she
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: was extremely young. They went and visited their childhood home
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: in Colorado. They went back to some store, I don't
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: know what it was, where Leanne had Taylor as a
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: young child and her biological father happened to be in
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: that store. And she said to him, like, do you
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: want to meet, you know, Taylor? So he said hi.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: And that was it. And she doesn't remember that. And
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: this friend said that he witnessed Leanne being beat up
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: by him. Yeah.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: And, you know, it's just to take a stop here
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: for a moment on like the the train ride that
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: is Taylor's life, which is like this is how. the
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: seeds of this sort of stuff are planted, right? We're
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: talking about generational trauma. Her mother was in an abusive relationship.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter about when we have a biological
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: parent or any parent who doesn't give us the love
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: that we need. We don't stop loving the parent. We
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: stop loving ourselves. And it doesn't matter... what that parent is,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: what's going on with them. It's just never going to
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: stop hurting. Why wasn't I enough? Why, you know, why
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: wasn't I good enough? And of course, when adults are
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: not in their children's lives, we know it's because of
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: their stuff. But kids will always internalize that, always for
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: the rest of their life. And they'll internalize it differently
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: as children than they do as adults than they do
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: as young adults. Because, for example, all these things You know,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: when when Taylor kept saying, I don't want to be
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: in a boring ass marriage, I think, again, that's evidence
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  Speaker 1: to support that what she's learned about love and relationships
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: and stability. She has this really vastly different idea of
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: what all those things mean because of the things that
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: she's gone through. So Taylor, you know, we're going to
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: talk about her accountability and her role and things like that.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: But I just think that she's a very wounded person.
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  Speaker 1: And these are the seeds that were planted to sprout
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  Speaker 1: these kind of behaviors later, if that makes sense.
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  Speaker 2: It does make sense. And what also was the thing
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: that I just didn't understand. And, you know, when you
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: have an amazing family, despite having a biological parent that
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: was abusive, toxic and didn't want it. be involved in
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: your life at all. Despite that, having a very stable
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: home to some degree and having a father figure, having
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: a person step into the shoes of your father and
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: being there for your whole life. How come that can't
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: make up for everything? You know, it just it doesn't.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I guess the question is it can't erase anything, correct?
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: But can it fulfill that person? Yeah. So research shows
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: that having one emotionally supportive parent is enough to help
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: children thrive. But having more adults in a financial stability,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: structural stability, you know, the dynamic and all of that,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I think that no matter what happens, like this stepfather
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: or step parents can be the greatest thing to ever
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: happen to families. And a lot of times I do
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: love hearing those stories, right? Maybe biological parent wasn't involved,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: but a step parent or, you know, somebody that really
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: mattered to this child. So yes, that's really important. But
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: it can never take the place of why didn't my
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: biological parent choose me? Why wasn't I enough? Why didn't
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: they care enough? Because that's painful, right? To have someone
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: who's supposed to love you just not give you any
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: love and support and just completely walk away. I think
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: the real answer is no matter how many good, safe,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: wonderful adults we have in our lives, if our biological
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: parent doesn't give us the love we need, that's just
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: going to impact us forever, period, end of sentence.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: How do you deal with that? How do you work
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: through that to not, you know, act out and... and
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: handle your, how do you cope? I guess is the question.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: It's a lifelong coping that you have to do. And
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: so what do you do?
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Well, the answer, of course, my answer is therapy, but
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: the answer is processing it because what I see with
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Taylor is a lot of unprocessed trauma that comes out
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: sideways all the time. So that's how you can tell
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: it's unprocessed. she moves from a place of trauma, which
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: tells me she has not been able to do that work.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Or if she has, it's, you know, because therapy or
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: working on yourself, it's in stages, right? It's not like
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: you go in, you do work on yourself, boom, you're cured,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: you're fixed. You know, for example, when I was talking
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: about Taylor's phobia of getting married, I think some of
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: that too is like when we have grief about biological
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: parents not being involved, that happens at different phases, right?
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Let's say you're in high school and there's like a
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: parent night. Or there's like a daddy-daughter dance or something
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: like that. And then you get married. And so my
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: point is that there's all these periods of our life
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: as we grow that the grief will come out, but
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: come out differently, if that makes sense. And so I
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: think Taylor would really have to talk about it, acknowledge
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: how painful it is, and to look at how this
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: informs her relationships. Because our relationships with our primary caregivers
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: determine a lot of the relational styles that we're going
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: to have, right? How do we learn to communicate? How
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: do we learn to have relationships? How do we learn
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: to manage it? All those different things. And so I
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: think from the start, and I don't know what happened
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: between her mom and her stepdad, but there was just
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of abandonment wounds, I think, with Taylor. that
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: really come out on other people. And we see that
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: a lot this season. Children who have been abandoned or
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: who have abandonment wounds like Layla, they will work so
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: hard to get people to love them, but then self-sabotage
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: or act out or, you know, everyone will do that
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: a little differently. And so I think that the long
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: answer is that Taylor needs some empathetic witness to help
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: her unpack this. And really trauma-focused therapy is probably what
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: would be the most helpful thing.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: So to pivot into, now that we have a little
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: bit of the background that I wanted to bring up,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: but to pivot into Taylor herself and the issues that
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: she has, the self-sabotage and the phobia of marriage. You
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: had mentioned phobia of marriage. I didn't even think about that,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: but it It's kind of like, well, yeah, she at
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the end of, you know, the season five, she dumps
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Ben after having this wild, just giddy. It did look
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: like somebody who was like high on drugs, you know,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: hiding in the New York apartment. And then once that
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: was over, it was like she was a completely different person.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: And she's like, well, yeah, I can't be that. Bye.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Are you breaking up with me? See you later. I
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: can't be that for you. When you think that that's
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: all she wants is to be loved and for someone
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: to marry her and take care of her. when in
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: fact it was such a huge mind, you know, it
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: blew my mind to see, oh, she doesn't want that? Oh,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: she doesn't? Like she doesn't want the stability of that?
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Or does she just want it She wants it so
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: badly from someone like Dakota who can't give it to her,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: which is why she's on that.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: And I just wanted to step in for a minute
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: is that sometimes when you don't have a parent that
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: gives you the love that you need, you'll spend the
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: rest of your life trying to convince people who treat
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: you badly to love you enough. That's another really important
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: thing that I've seen is that people with these tenuous
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: relationships with parents will pick a guy that's not good
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: for them, and then just try to convince that person
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: to love them or convince them to treat me good enough.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: You know, Taylor did a lot of that with Dakota,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: trying to convince and convince and convince instead of choosing
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: a healthier choice of someone saying, yes, I'm here. I
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: want to do this with you. There is a very chaotic,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: addictive component to this. If you look at it like
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: substance use, it's... And I'll talk about that in a
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: little bit. But I think that for me, that's an
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: important distinction, is that, you know, she's seeking love from
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: people who aren't capable of providing it, which is also
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: very common.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Because she was abandoned?
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: I think it's because she felt abandoned. Yeah.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: She had feelings. And I mean, she was, right? It's
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: not like that's not real. She was abandoned. But I
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: think the abandonment from her biological father, those feelings over
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: the years that never got processed, that can turn into
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: this sort of relational push and pull where it's like,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I hate you, but don't leave me. I need you,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: but I don't want you. You know, this kind of
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: back and forth because she doesn't, I don't think she
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: knows what to do with love.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Do people who have these issues seek out someone who
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: ultimately will abandon them?
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Usually, yes. Okay.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Usually.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: That is so wild.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Like how we do that in our brains is like
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: beyond me.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I know, and this is why I talk about we
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: will repeat unhealthy relational patterns that we are not addressing
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: because it's like our brain seeks out the comfort of
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: what we know. So if your parent wasn't particularly loving,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: you may seek out someone who also is withholding of
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: love and you have to try to convince them, please
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: just treat me well, instead of picking someone who will
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: want to treat them well. Our brains and our nervous systems,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: our bodies, they seek what they know. And in a moment,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I'll talk about neuroplasticity. But neuroplasticity, when it comes to addiction,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: when we keep engaging in the same problematic behaviors, what
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: happens is our brain adapts to that. And then we
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: end up seeking more of those addictive behaviors, you know,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: if that makes sense.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, it does make sense. And she knows it.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: She says things like, I'll mess this up, too. If
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: I feel happiness, it hurts because it will be taken away.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: That was one of her quotes. And then when she
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: tries to leave Dakota, she says, it's just something in
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: my brain will not click. I know I need to
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: do it, but something in my brain will not click.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: And that's the neuroplasticity that you're talking about, right?
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Yes. And I believe a love addiction on top of that. Now, again,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be real clear about this. I don't
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: know Taylor. I don't know Dakota. I'm not diagnosing anyone.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: But I have worked in inpatient rehab facilities with people
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: who abuse substances, people who process addictions like sex and
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: love addiction, and I've seen it. And I know what
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: the chaotic relationship, what it feels like and what it
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: looks like. And so I'm just saying from my perspective,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: that's what it appears to be. I'm not saying that's
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: what it is. I'm saying that's what I am seeing.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: When you see someone who's like their behavior goes against
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: all logic and they're saying, I know this is not healthy,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: but I'm going to do it anyway. That is kind
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: of what gives me more of that flavor of love
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: addiction of, you know, think about it like with a substance.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: if you're using a substance and then you're like, okay,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: I know this isn't good for me, you're going to
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: put it down, but then only temporarily until you pick
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: it up again. And so men are her substance and
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: she uses them interchangeably because it's really, unfortunately, not about
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the man. It's about her trying to feel some sort
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: of love of stability, but she does not realize the
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: ways that she's recreating her own trauma. And in fairness,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: none of us do until we get into some therapy
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: or do some work on ourselves to help us understand that.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: We often will recreate those worst fears. I'm afraid of
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: being abandoned. And then we engage in things that lead
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: to that or pick people who will do that to us,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Right. In the end, she could have picked Ben and
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: maybe she would have gotten what she ultimately thinks that
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: she wants. But That's not appealing to her because that
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: scares her, right? The stability scares her.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: I think it scares her. But if I'm being honest,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I think she used Ben to make herself feel loved
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: and wonderful. And, you know, with love addiction, sex is
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: only a means to an end in terms of like
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: that intimacy, that love, that support. But I think that
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: she really kind of used Ben as an object, a
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: means to an end. And then when she was done
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: with him, she threw him away because he wasn't exciting enough.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Like when you're in this sort of chaotic, toxic relationship,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: a healthy relationship is going to seem really boring and shitty.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I agree. I mean, I can only
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: go from my earlier my earlier life. You know, I
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: experienced a similar experience. situation where I do feel like
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I could not get away from this person. I was
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: completely addicted. So when I saw when she was on
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: the steps of Jesse's new house, Jordan is such a douchebag,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: by the way.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God. The worst. These men. I can't with
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: these men, Amy. Dad talk needs to go away forever.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: And like, these men are so upset that they are
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: not the breadwinner of their homes, that they are just
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: doing anything to tear these women down.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Connor is living his best life.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: And I love that. I know. He's just like, look
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: at my gorgeous wife. Close up magic. No, literally. Who
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: would have thought that Connor would have been like the goat?
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: of these men.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: But yeah they're all past season also Zach surprised me
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I did feel like he was making some sense here
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: and there and I did appreciate that um he has
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: had some growth like he he's like I stepped away
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: from the church I'm beginning to figure out who I
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: am like I he felt like he was kind of
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: brainwashed so he's doing some of the work so I
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: did appreciate that but So those are the two shout outs.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: But when she was on the steps of Jesse's new
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: house and she's like on the ground and crying and
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: it's that same cry that we've heard so many times
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: over Dakota. And it is such a painful thing to hear.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: And I can feel, like I could feel the old
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: feelings creeping up in me, that aching emptiness, that pain
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: that you cannot subside, that will not subside. Nothing can
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: get rid of it. It's like, And it's that person.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: It's that fucking person that you need to make it okay.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: You don't know any other way to get rid of
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: it except for that person. And you know it's not
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: good for you. And you don't have the coping skills.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: And you haven't been able to get there. And I just, oh,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: my heart really bleeds for her. And I just, I
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: felt it. And if you've ever been in that situation,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: you know by looking at her. It's just, it's awful.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Totally. And I will be totally honest that while I
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: am a therapist... I've also had these experiences with choosing
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: people who will recreate this. So what I'm talking about
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: is not only I've helped people in therapy, but I've
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: had a similar experience of not getting enough love and
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: choosing people who would recreate those narcissistic wounds and all
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: these other things. And so I think it's good for
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: us to share that because this is a human condition.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Two things that people will always need is love and
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: a sense of belonging. And that's just it. And if
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: we don't get that from our family of origin, we're
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: going to spend the rest of our lives looking for it,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: sometimes in the wrong places. But to your point, when
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I heard that cry, that's a trauma cry. That is
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: a years and years and years of not feeling good enough,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: of knowing she's self-sabotaging, but she doesn't know how to
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: do it differently anymore. wanting to get out of this,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: but feeling so addicted and so stuck and so frozen.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: It gives me goosebumps as I talk about it, because
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: you do feel for her because while her behavior, it's
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: frustrating and I get for the ladies, it's hard to
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: hear the same thing over and over. And then she
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: does the same thing.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: But she really is deserving of love and support. And
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: I just, I really pray and hope that she gets it.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Because I don't think Taylor is a bad person. But
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: I think that while Taylor deserves a ton of empathy,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: I think it also doesn't serve her to make it
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: just a Dakota issue and ignore her role in all
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: of this.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Hey, can we talk about desire for a minute? Because
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I feel like nobody tells you that at a certain
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: point in life, getting in the mood sometimes requires your
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: brain to first shut down approximately 47 other tabs. Did
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: I answer that email? What does my daughter need for
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: school tomorrow? Did I move the laundry? Why is it
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: so hot in this house? Am I having a hot flash?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: And somewhere underneath all of that is your libido going, hey,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: remember me? I'm also in perimenopause right now, so I
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: am very interested in anything that opens up a conversation
• 23:31
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• 23:35
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• 24:06
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• 24:31
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• 24:34
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• 24:37
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• 24:41
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• 24:45
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• 24:51
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• 24:55
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• 25:11
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• 25:17
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• 25:20
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• 25:25
  Speaker 2: we can't close all 47 tabs in our brain, but
• 25:28
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• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Hi there. We need to talk about boobs again, okay?
• 27:41
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• 29:02
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• 29:09
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• 30:18
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• 30:21
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• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Her fans, you know, what's so interesting is that the
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Mormon wives all kind of joke about how she has
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: this cult-like following. And it's like, yeah, Taylor can do
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: no wrong. And that's really dangerous.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Because... The one thing that I do notice with Taylor
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: as I've been watching this is she really does have
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: trouble taking accountability when she's feeling hurt. And this is
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: something that trauma does to us where like a lot
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: of trauma survivors will have feelings that are based in
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: something that happened in the past and apply it to
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: a current situation and think, well, I'm right because I
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: have this feeling. Well, that's not always the case. And unfortunately,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: trauma does make us feel things in the present. They're
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: called emotional flashbacks. You'll see this with PTSD or complex PTSD.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: An emotional flashback is you'll get, do you remember what
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: you told me about that emotion you got hearing her cry?
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: That's an emotional flashback. Now, that does not mean that
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: you have PTSD. People listening to this, do not panic.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Emotional flashbacks can happen regardless of that sort of diagnosis.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: It's just part of the human condition. But when it
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: becomes really consistent and then you're living your life and
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: moving from that place of old, painful emotions, that don't
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: totally apply to now, that's also a surefire sign that
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: it's trauma.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Wow. So for example, just to, you know, wrap my
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: head around it. So for example, if I related with
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: what she was feeling, because I've felt that before. Now,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: what I do with that feeling and how I move
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: about the world is the difference in terms of like
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: my healing process, right? So that's right.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: If I were to take that and then go, be
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: mad at somebody or get upset about something on that level?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, what would be an example of how I
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: could poorly handle that and how I could handle that well?
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, sure. I'll give a great example. So, you know,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: I've been with my husband for 24 years. So let's
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: say you have that feeling. And then if it were problematic,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: it could take you over. And then let's say you
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: go home and you have a fight with your husband.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Because you were hurt by men in the past and
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: bringing it into your current relationship and creating a fight or,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: you know, something that impacts you currently. It's not necessarily
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: like the level of it or, you know, how.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: The exact examples I can't give, but that's the best
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: way to say. That makes sense.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Stirring up some trouble when it's not really there. You know,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: looking for something when it's not really there because I'm
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: an open wound of. Right. Yeah.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: You're a raw nerve. You're an open wound. And then
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: it gets on to other people, essentially. Like you're putting
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: your old stuff on to people who that's not theirs
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: to have right now.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Right. Instead, I go, thank God I'm not in that situation.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Thank God I'm not with someone who's like that.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Right? And also, I just think it's good while we're
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: on this topic to give ourselves gentle reminders of how
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: far we've come, you know, with our adverse childhood experiences.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: And then to think like, wow, I'm so grateful. I
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: have a wonderful husband. I am not in this situation anymore.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: So I think it's also a message to all of
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: us to just be like gentle on ourselves because It's
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: hard and there's no handbook for it.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: And to embrace the fact that, you know, we are
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: all young at one point. And young brains just don't
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: know from what.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: No, they make real bad choices, young brains. They make
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: wacky choices, wild choices, bad choices. So I think it's
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: good to have a lot of empathy for ourselves, our
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: younger selves, all the iterations of ourselves. Because, yeah, that's
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: just the human condition.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: So does Taylor, you know, we're talking about self-sabotage, obviously,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: as you had explained. Does she, when you said marriage phobia,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: but she would marry Dakota, though. I mean, in a heartbeat, right?
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Well, now, you know, with all these things that happened
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: in the restraining orders, dear God, I hope not.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: I guess if we go back to where they were
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: before the DV. Sure. And all that stuff. I mean,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: before that DV was exposed to us.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Right. Yes, I do. I think, you know, her coming
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: back from The Bachelorette, being engaged to some guy who
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: didn't even like her, that her friends also didn't like,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: that reminded her of Dakota, had the same initials. Yeah,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: that tells me that she was searching again for the love.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: She just wanted this one man to love her the
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: way she needed to be loved.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Does that sound familiar? And I think she drug herself
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: to the pits of hell to seek that. And that's
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: why I hope these are good lessons for her that
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: she deserves better because I do think she would have
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: continued this behavior without this major event happening. I almost,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: I think when these major events happen and it feels
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: like our life is falling apart, the universe is trying
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: to teach us something. It's trying to tell us something.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: And it's, life lessons are very hard. And I think
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: maybe she's learning hers.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I hope. Well, life will continue to dredge up until
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: you finally have to look at it, right? Yeah.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Until you stop that pattern, until you say, I'm sick
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: of this pain. Here are the ways I contribute to
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: my pain and I'm not willing to do that anymore.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: With everything, whether it's relationships or food or substances or
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: processes or self-hatred, whatever it is, we have to be
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: sick of the pain. And be willing to look at
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: what do I need to do to save my own
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: life and get out of this.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: And sometimes if you don't have the strength to do it,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: the law gets involved. And here we are.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: And because of the DV and the horrific video that
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: surfaced on TMZ, which I believe and many people believe,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: but allegedly Dakota sold to TMZ.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Of, you know, when she threw the chair, he was
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: holding a child there. The chair hit another child on
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: the couch.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: On the couch.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: And now we have their status right now is that
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: they both have restraining orders against each other. They both
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: have filings of DV against each other.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: They're navigating an ongoing custody arrangement for their two-year-old son.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: And I don't know. This is very, it's horrific. It's appalling.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: When I saw that video, I almost threw up, you know.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: And so I didn't know if I was even going
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: to be able to watch Secret Lives of Mormon Wives
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: because of this. I'm glad I did because there's so
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: much that can be taken from this and to help
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: people in conversations like this to not get as bad,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Or to get yourself out. That's the thing. We got
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: to learn how to extricate ourselves from really bad situations.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: And sometimes people, yeah, they just either they can't do it.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: They don't have the motivation. They're not ready. They don't
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: have the support. There's a million reasons. And I never
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: want anyone to hear the message that this is their fault.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: It's not. But how we get ourselves safe and when
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: we do that, right, that all matters, too, for us,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: for our children, for future generations.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Because this is how generational trauma happens. When children are
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: exposed to domestic violence, it increases their likelihood by a
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: significant amount. of either being in abusive relationships themselves or
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: being perpetrators of abuse. And that is what, right. And
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: that is the part where it's like, we can have
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: compassion for Taylor. I don't have compassion for Dakota. I'm
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: going to be honest. I think, you know, we can
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: talk about that in a minute. I don't either, actually.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: He did this to ruin her life. I think when
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: he finally realized that She was like resolute on being
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: done with this.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Yes. That was a huge piece of the puzzle that
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: we did not know. Now it makes so much sense.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Doesn't it? That context to me, I was like, OK,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: so this man saved this because abuse really is about
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: power and control. Period. End of sentence. It's about power
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: and control. With Taylor, I think it was more about
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: her old wounds and acting out because of the things
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: that Dakota was doing. I think he was using DARVO,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: which stands for deny, attack, and then reverse victim offender.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: And I can explain that a little bit more. But
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I have no doubt in my mind after watching this
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: that he was like, oh, you're really done? well, now
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ruin your life. Okay. And that is
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: incredibly indicative of somebody who has a desire for power
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: and control, somebody who doesn't have empathy. I mean, because
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: this is the mother of your child, right?
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: You do this and then it has impacts for your children.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: And this is not about him caring for his children
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: or him caring for Taylor. This is about him trying
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: to maintain power and control. And I think that's a
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: really dangerous character. Yeah, that's really dangerous.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: You know, Melissa, when this all came out into the
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: news and stuff, I just thought they must have had
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: some sort of explosive fight, another explosive fight where she
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: did something and he's just at his wits end and
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: was like, she needs to get help. I'm going to
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: expose this because it's so bad because something else happened
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: and whatever, whatever, whatever. If this is what we're seeing
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: has any truth to it at all, The text message
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: that she was actually going to try and move on
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: from him for real and her mind was made up
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: that that was the catalyst is not what I had
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: in my mind at all.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Right. And that's why context does matter, because when you
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: see the video, it is easy to just look at her.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: And especially when children are getting hurt, because like Michaela,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I'm team children at the end of the day. But
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: I do think that it is a case of he
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: knew what buttons to push. He knew how to trigger
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: her to get a reaction. And that is a classic
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: tactic of narcissistic abusers where they will push your button
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: to make you look crazy. And then that's where they
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: start recording.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: And so that is now what I am fully convinced happened.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: She was like, I'm done. He's like, oh, no, you're not.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: I'm a ruin your life. And he did. So.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: And also with the love bombing and sending her videos
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: of them having sex, holding on to those and then
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: telling Jesse, I have her so fucked up right now.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: That was his quote. I have her so fucked up
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: right now. To think that he's in a safe space
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: with one of her friends to say that is like
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: so crazy to me that he wouldn't even hide his evil,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: maniacal ways that he would actually say those things aloud.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: And can I be honest? I feel like the culture
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: of these men facilitates that. These men have no problem
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: for the most part. Again, aside from a couple that
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: we mentioned, they have no problem using, abusing, manipulating, love bombing,
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: fame reaching, using women for Cartier rings. They have no
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: shame in any of these things. And so that is
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: where the culture of men becomes you know, it's been
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: in the news. And guess what? We're seeing it here
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: on our screens. Because where are these men telling him
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: that's not acceptable? This is abusive behavior. Calling out. Like,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: he felt so comfortable to say that with his whole chest.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: That's fucked up.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Because when he said that, I was like, oh, you're like,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: you don't have empathy. Like, you have serious pathology. And Taylor,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think She really understood the depth of Dakota's pathology.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Now she knows. Now she knows. But that's sometimes a
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: painful lesson that women especially learn is that they think, well,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: this person says they love me, so they'll never hurt me.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: And then they do in ways that you're like, oh, wow, I...
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: completely did not see this coming. And that's almost what
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: I get from Taylor too, because you can't say that
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: you love someone and then do something like this to them.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: He never loved her.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: No. And he also continuously would be with someone in
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: her circle.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: To make her crazy, by the way. That's a tactic.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: And listen, I think she was using that tactic, too.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I think actually this is a tactic that a lot
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: of the people in this group you will use, like
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: how Chase has slept with. They've all slept with each other,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: you know, and then I don't know, he and Jesse, whatever,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: had like a little thing from what like Chase and
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Jesse maybe shared a kiss or something. So there is
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: this very kind of like. I'm going to say incestual
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: quality about this group where there's like a real lack
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: of boundaries and it's more about like their own desires
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: than it is caring for other people's mental health. Yeah.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's all, that's pretty sick.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: And then we saw that quick video of him with
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: a lip tattoo with her name on it. You know,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: and all this is her gearing up to go to
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: The Bachelor, right? It's all before she goes to The
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Bachelor and him on the phone, saying to her, save
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: a rose for me. And he wants her to say
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: it out loud to him. He wants her to repeat that,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: which she didn't do. I was actually proud that she didn't.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: But to say that to her as she's going out
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: the door to go do this.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Let me be clear. Dakota knows exactly what he's
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: doing with Taylor. He knows how to push her buttons.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: He knows how to trigger her. He knows what triggering
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: her will get him, which is probably like chaos sex
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: is addictive. I'm going to be honest. Like When you
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: see people who are allegedly sober because Dakota says that
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: he's allegedly sober, but people who are sober would never
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: engage in these types of behaviors or relationships. So I'm
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: just going to leave that there. I'm not saying he's
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: using substances, but he was using Taylor as a drug.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: So I think that it's wild. You know, there was
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: like a point. Where, did you catch this, where he
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: said to somebody, Zach.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know exactly what you're going to say. Zach.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Find yourself a toxic relationship and the sex will be great.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or get real toxic and see how good the
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: sex becomes.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: And I was like, holy Moses. That's the scary thing
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: is Dakota is totally fine doing this on TV. And
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: I think part of the reason why is because fans
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: don't care, which is so sad. We all should care.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Dakota should have no fans. Chase, I mean, these men
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: who are doing and saying terrible things to women, why
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: are we giving them a platform? But that's just.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: How does, like, and also, like, Shania and Jenna, I think,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: and then this new girl, Emma, how are these women
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: even thinking about being with him?
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: I think with the LDS church, there's two things happening here,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: is one... When humans are taught to be perfect, that's
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: a setup for failure because no human on earth is perfect.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: And it sets people up for really bad things happening
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: to them. Number one. Number two, there's a patriarchal culture
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: within the LDS church that women are taught you need
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: to be married and have children. Otherwise, you're an old maid.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Like women are taught that a lot of, you know,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: the man is the head of the household or they
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: control this or that. And so then what happens is
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: there are plenty of women who are happy to support
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: that patriarchal message and give themselves away, not even understanding
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: the implications of that because they're so desperate for love, too.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that's the only reason. There's a
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: lot of complex factors here. But I do think the
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: church culture for me has a lot to do with
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: this type of behavior that we see.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think That's why having
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: a show like this on is an education and something
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: that I don't think many of us are that familiar with.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: It's a very.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: Specific situation for them because it has those undertones in
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: which you just explained, but it's also so similar to
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: all the rest of us, but it has a different
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: layer to it, you know? And I suppose you can
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: take that layer and, you know, replace it with the
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: restaurant business or like you can replace it with, you know,
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Christianity or like anything.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Any institutional. That's right. That's right. Because the one thing
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: I'll say when it comes to DARVO, this is something
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: that perpetrators do when they're like accused of wrongdoing. And
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: DARVO is institutional as well. So the example I'll give
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: is that institutional is DARVO committed when, let's say, police
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: charge a rape victim with lying. That's institutional DARVO. So
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: to your point is that we have institutions and cultures
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: that are intent on maintaining these abuses towards women. And
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: it's a lot of different. I mean, from what we've
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: learned in the news recently is that the fabric of
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: this country is woven on dehumanizing women. And, you know, again,
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: I think we can't continue this conversation without that piece
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: being said, because I think we're seeing how that is
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: in lived experience, how that gets shown in people's actions.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Boy, I wish we were further in society with
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: the way that things are because.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: You know, just when I think that we're... Vote, vote, vote, vote,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: because our lives depend on it.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: The second I think that we've gone a little further, then,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: you know, more news breaks about the horrors of what's
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: going on and the abuse and the scale of it.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: That's the thing, the scale of it and the pervasiveness
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: of it is, yeah, it's horrifying.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. So I do want to go back to DARVO
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: for a second. Can you tell me the acronym and
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: the meaning of the acronym again?
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: So it stands for deny. So they deny. So to
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: be clear, and just for any nerds who are interested
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: in looking this up, Jennifer Joy Freed, she is a
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: psychologist that coined this term that is doing the research
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: on DARVO. And she has a page where she gives
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: links to a lot of research when it comes to that.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: So if you want to look that up more, Google
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Jennifer Joy Freed, F-R-E-Y-D. And there's a lot of research
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: and evidence to support what DARPA is all about. OK,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: so it refers to a reaction perpetrators give to wrongdoing
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: and they display these behaviors in response to being held
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: accountable for their behaviors. So it starts with the perpetrator
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: denying the behavior. No, I didn't do that.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: Nope.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: I didn't do that. Two, attack who is the person
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: who's doing the confronting. So no, I didn't do this.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: You actually did this. Or I didn't do this. Remember
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: when you did this two years ago? Remember when you did,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: et cetera, right?
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Then the reverse victim and offender says, meaning that the
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: into the alleged offender.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: And so basically, when Dakota is just not able to
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: acknowledge any of the things that he's doing, because if
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: he did, he would have to admit to being abusive
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: and he's probably not going to do that. But then
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: what happens is and what we saw in the video,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: it's called reactive abuse. So reactive abuse is an instinctive
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: self-defense or survival response where a person who has been
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: subjected to prolonged emotional, verbal, or physical abuse, they reach
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: a breaking point and they lash out. And so when
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: we are physically or verbally attacked, our body instinctively does the,
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: you know, there's kind of four, I'm sure you've heard fight, flight, freeze,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: and fawn. These are the responses that when we are
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: physically or verbally attacked, we respond in one of these ways.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: So the fight response is you respond to the threat aggressively,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: often by attacking the aggressor. So that kind of seems
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: to be where she falls. Flight is what happens when
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: your body recognizes that it can escape the danger and
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: you run away. Freeze, this happens a lot. And this
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: is especially when it comes to sexual abuse. Women get
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: blamed a ton for freezing, but this is a very
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: common response. It's basically our body turns on, like pulls
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: the emergency brake. We are too overwhelmed. We're flooded. We're overstimulated.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: And you literally freeze and you feel stuck. And then
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: fawn is what I talked about this all year last
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: year with Bronwyn and Todd. The fawn response is the
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: stress response happens if you unsuccessfully fight or run away
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: from your partner. And it looks like trying to be
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: overly helpful and focusing on making your partner happy over
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: your own safety.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: And sometimes those can combine, right? Like you could see
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: a fawn freeze.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can. go in and out of them. Some
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: people have, you know, they can go back and forth
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: between a bunch of them. Some people have their body
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: and their brain works in such a way that they
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: only do maybe one or two consistently. But yeah, and
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: it's all based on our epigenetics, like our genetics, our environment,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: personality style, all these different things have to do with that.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: Can you be a fauner and also a fighter at
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: some point? Or is it pretty much, oh, really?
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: So you can go, interesting.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, usually people who fawn, I will tell you,
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: aren't fighters, typically. Because, again, many of us learn, you know,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: we have to appease people who are dangerous to us
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: to survive. And then that creates neural pathways that lead
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: us to do that a lot. But sure, if you're
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: a fawner, you could be a fighter, you know, absolutely.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: These neural pathways, man, you know. Can you retrain your
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: brain or figure out a way to create other neural
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: pathways to train your brain not to freeze?
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: Definitely. And I'm going to tell you, no one's going
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: to like this answer. The only way to train your
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: brain is by doing it differently over and over and
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: over and again, even when it feels completely foreign to you.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: So it's like, I use the analogy of it's like, well,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: this is good for us to act opposite, but... you
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: need to do it over and over in really difficult circumstances.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: And sometimes it's very hard to do that. But the
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: good news is that we can retrain our brain. Neuroplasticity can't,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: like the brain is an amazing thing. If we, you know,
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: stop using substances, get out of abusive relationships, we can
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: and will thrive and recover for sure a thousand percent.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: But initially it's always, it feels like you're riding a
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: with your non-dominant hand. That's the example that I use.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: I'm a right-handed person. That's a great way to put it.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: And it's like when I'm trying to act opposite to
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: get myself out of a depressive episode, it feels like
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: I'm using my left hand. I'm like a baby giraffe.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: I'm like, it's like I've never walked before. I can't
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: do that, you know? But then it's like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: We can do this. We can do this one step,
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: one step, one step, you know? And that is why
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: it is so good to focus just on like one
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: moment at a time, one day at a time when
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: we're doing this stuff. And self-love is very crucial because
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: imagine like you're using your left hand and imagine if
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: you're like, well, this writing sucks. It's like, well, yeah,
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: it's going to suck. You're not left-handed. You're just trying
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: to do something for you. So it's going to be messy.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: It's going to look ugly. It may not also feel right,
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: but we do it. We got to do it. And
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: it helps.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Melissa, I feel like we have scratched the surface pretty good,
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: but because we have talked so long, about the incredible
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: material that Secret Lives of Mormon Wives have given us,
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: I think that we need to do a part two.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: I am in full agreement, Amy. So for those of
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: you who are loving this episode, we have so much
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: more to say. Please tune in to part two, which
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: will also be released with this episode. We were yapping, Amy.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: We were yapping. We were. We were. So enjoy part two.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you all.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Enjoy.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed part one. Thanks for listening.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: And enjoy part two. Disclaimer. Posts are not intended to diagnose, treat,
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: or provide medical advice. Your Bish Therapist is for entertainment
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: and informational purposes only. The podcast, my opinions, and posts
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: are my own and not associated with past or present employers,
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: any organizations, Bravo TV, Greyheart Productions, or any other television network.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: The information in YBT podcast and on its social media
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: is provided for general informational purposes only and is not
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: intended to diagnose or treat. Please do not act or
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: refrain from acting based on anything you read, see, or
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: hear on YBT podcast or associated social media. Communicating with
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: YBT via email and or social media does not form
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: a therapeutic alliance. Melissa, operator of YBT, is unable to
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: provide any therapeutic advice, treatment, or feedback.