Latest / Fire Engineering Podcast / Engine Company Operations: Hose Management, Firefighter Training, and Data

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Engine Company Operations: Hose Management, Firefighter Training, and Data · Fire Engineering Podcast

• Nat Kapustin: From MSA helmets and streamlight flashlights to seek thermal imaging cameras and so much more, the firestore.com has everything you need to serve your community safely and effectively. Well, we're gonna get started. I wanna welcome everybody back. I've had a couple a couple video casts off due to scheduling issues and a pregnant daughter, a son getting married, so it's been a little little hectic. So we wanna welcome everybody to the show today and Generation Engine. super excited about our guests. unique, I think, is a good way to describe this this person today and we're gonna let him get into that in just a second. So I'll start with introduction. my name's Todd Edwards. I'm not gonna tell you how many years in the fire service because Anthony Rowett will make fun of me later on down the road, but it it's it's been it's been longer than five years. So very fortunate blessed, retired from Atlanta, Georgia and fortunate blessed to be able teach and hang out and get to meet guys like our guests today and get to know him and and all those cool things too. So my co host, go ahead. Anthony Rowett, I'm a captain in Mobile, Alabama. Like Todd said, the same kind of thing. very blessed to get to go around and instruct with different people, learn from different people, have friends throughout the fire service all over the country, which is where our guest tonight comes into play is not just having friends locally to bounce ideas off of, but all over the country and different regions. So I guess with no further ado, our guest, go ahead and introduce yourself to everybody, Shane. sh Shane Faruta. I live on the island of Oahu. did twenty I'm retired, a retired lieutenant, 27 years in the federal fire department over here. spent most of my career at Pearl Harbor. but you know, a lot of people don't a lot of people don't understand what you know what the Federal Fire Department Federal Fire Department does. basically it's the easiest way is we're just a structural department. Well, I shouldn't say just a structure. We're a structural and ARF department for all the federal installations, right? All the military bases here. And you'd be surprised how large of a department it is. And we have a lot of military stations here. In in your system, how many how many guys are actually full time military as well as file? So for us, we're all civilian. You know, so yeah, so up until I would say maybe ten, twelve years ago, there was one Air Force fire department. It was a single station fire department. and they were half, you know, kind of mixed active duty and civilian. but we've we you know, it was a what did they call they call it the BRAC base realignment. So they join they basically merged Pearl Harbor and Hickham together. And we you know, we basically absorbed them and became just all civilian. So did you guys and I but now I've got all these really cool questions. so on the response side, how did that how did you guys manage the number of people in that area, like you know, with Pearl Harbor there? Was that part of your responsibility with all the tourism and all all the things going on around there? I've never been there, so I'm asking I don't know how all that worked for you guys. You know, the on the island of Oahu, which is, you know, the our most populated island, right? You got the city and county of Honolulu, right? Honolulu fire department. And they're a large they're a large city, you know, basically a metro fire department. They've got forty-three firehouses. And so, you know, they got great coverage outside of the base, right? so for the most part, we took care of the population within the within the fence line, so to speak, right? You know, and like on Pearl Harbor, we had two firehouses right outside of Pearl Harbor, which is still our area. you got Fort Island, which is connected by a drawbridge. We had a firehouse there. Hickam Fire Department, which is the Air Force base, which we merged on. Again, they're basically all attached, right? And just kind of separated by a fence. so you know, within Just within our area, we had five we had five firehouses just for Pearl Harbor, that kind of Pearl Harbor area. Yeah, it's a pretty good area. And you know, a lot of people don't realize there's a million people on Oahu, right? So I I did not know there's that many people on that island. Yeah. We're we're very we're very metropolitan. We're not if you wanna see Paradise and you wanna see Hawaii, Oahu's probably not what you're expecting. You know, you gotta you gotta go to one of the outer islands. Interesting. That's that's you know we're getting some cool insight for anybody who's planning a a Hawaiian vacation in their future. They maybe we can get you some inside information and contact information with somebody who actually lives there and has a good working knowledge of all all that's going on there. so I wanted to kind of go into something else here, Shane. What since we're tired, I know you're retired and I know what you do now, but kinda tell people what you're what you're currently working on and what you're doing as your, I guess, second career in a sense. Yeah, well A couple of years a couple of years ago, you know, I so I retired with twenty seven years on the job, right? I got hired pretty young. I was I think I was twenty-one when I got hired. And I had no really no plans to retire early. You know, I I I love being on an engine, right? You know, and I was on an engine for twenty five of twenty-seven years, you know. And I was at FDIC and you know, I was just kinda wandering around, you how we always do. And I was I was talking with a buddy of ours, right? Talking with Kevin Shea, you know, just kind of in passing. And we're we're going up the we're going up the escalator, and he's like, hey, what's you catching up? How's things going? What you know, what you've been up to. And then he just kind of throws out there, hey, you got a side gig? You know, all firemen got side gigs, right? And so I was like, No, not right now. And he says, You want one? And I was like, you know, well, depends what it is. And he's like, Well, I don't even know if we're hiring, let me talk to the boss. And I'm like, all right, cool. You know, like, and literally that was the conversation, right? And like two weeks later, I get a phone call. It's Kevin Shea. I'm like, yeah, what's up, brother? And he's like, hey, Shane, remember that conversation we had at FDIC? I'm like, not really. Like, what conversation? He's like, Well, I spoke to the boss and you're hired. And I'm like, Well, what am I doing? And so You know, come to find out, you know, he you know, he works for a company called Sure Sales and they and that's a it's an independent manufacturer rep. You know, basically, you know, when when you need an L cart nozzle, right? We're all gonna call Jerry or we'll call Andy or we'll call Brian Scott, right? And the independent manufacturer rep is basically that it's that guy who is you know, a Brian Scott or Andy, but That manufacturer, that company doesn't want to basically have a full-time employee. You know, I can't hire Todd Edwards to go live in Alaska, you know, because it's so rural, right? But and and keep you there the whole the whole time, full time. So we'll hire a local guy there that can kind of take care of the territory. And so, you know, we yeah, we we we rep Elkhart and you know, we we we represent Elkhart, Scott, Lion, seat thermal. streamlight and circular the gear washers and that's the five the five brands we rep and you know for me personally you know they wanted specific product representation in hawaii so i i represent scott and elkhart you know and seek and seek thermal and so you know that's so that's what i do now on in my second life right it's it's great you know the funny thing is you know i mean you know how it is we we kind of all were We're talking about products we love anyway, right? Like as a firefighter, going out there and you know, going around the d local departments and trying to basically talk to them about putting them in the right equipment, you know, what we what we feel is the right equipment for them. And when this opportunity came around, I was like, You you're gonna pay me for what I'm doing already? It's like let's let's do it. Right. And so yeah, I I love what I do. You know, I I get this it keeps me as you know, Darryl Liggins likes to say, keeps me engaged, even though I'm retired, right? It keeps me keeps me still part of the fire service. I still get to go out and teach. I still get to and and that's the beautiful thing, right? They don't treat us like I don't go out there like as a salesman. You know, I I I show up as more as an instructor, you know, and we just kind of we just teach and talk about the product and we'll, you know, actually have classes and stuff like that. So it's fun. Yeah, I think I think I love the the the concepts that you know, both Key, El Cart and a lot of these have. it's kind of come to the forefront versus trying to tell you how great this nozzle is or how great this camera is. No, here, let me put this in your hand and you decide if it's if it's the latest. I mean, I can I can tell you I have the greatest nozzle of all time, but unless I'm gonna allow you to have it, play with it, flow water, fight fire with it, you you know, you just don't want to go on the word of that person. So I love that concept of I and I like that you guys are big, but you're not trying to represent forty two different companies. yeah, no, it's it's very exclusive, I guess you'd like to say, right? They really they really they're really protective of who they who they represent, you know? And they and they truly do believe in their their brands, you know, that they the companies they they rep. So Yeah. 'Cause we see a lot over here. I know in the southeast there's some I'm not gonna say their names, but there's some major companies exactly like yours, but they're representing every project on the market just about. and I think it sometimes hurts cause when these guys who are the end salesmen, they don't know the product like, you know, obviously having a Shane or, you know, or an Andy like you mentioned, or Kevin McCart from Key Hose coming to you and actually allowing you to have hands on to it. So, I think first lesson if we're gonna say, you know, from a teaching standpoint today would be You know, do the do that due diligence. If somebody's not gonna allow you to have their product in their hand, that's probably not the product to be buying in the first damn place. Yeah. You know, and and and the one thing that I really appreciate is that, you know, at least for our company, is the the boss is very open to hiring firefighters for this position, right? Former firefighters or active firefighters. And and it just I mean it's for us it's common sense, right? Like, hey, who do you want to represent your product is someone who actually uses your product? But you'd be surprised at how many you know, people out there that represent the products pro some product lines are were never actual end users, right? And that again, it it just makes it difficult for me to you know, it's not it's not as palatable, right? If somebody comes out there and wants to talk about how great their product is, but they've never actually experienced what it feels like to actually use it, right? Yeah. No, I I've had some debates with salespeople before that didn't go well. and it was basically on that. when I hear somebody trying to say this is the this is the wave of the future, this is the latest and greatest in technology and every fire department should be in this particular thing. And when I started asking questions, I realized really quick that the individual saying these things to all these firefighters had never actually drug this particular item through a burning house and actually utterly the item and and when I kind of pointed that out that I was asked to leave the booth. Yeah you know I think the biggest thing that I appreciate about my job is that we're actually not we're not we're not a dealer, right? We're not selling anything. So I get to I literally get to go there just to educate, right? And it's it's like hey I I do hope that you know you end up buying this product you know from somebody It's not gonna be us, you know, but it's not gonna be me. But I I do hope you, you know, purchase this just because I believe in it. But at the end of the day, I just get to go out there and do my thing, right? As as opposed to, you know, I mean, you know how it is, right? Nobody wants to feel like they're going out there and trying to I wanna sell you something. It's more just you will just we just wanna teach, right? And that's really the passion. Well, I think that's what makes those kind of things is you know, the for for the guy reping the product, if he's used it and believes in it, there's not a lot. It's so much easier to I I hate saying the word sell, but to get guys to buy into what you're trying to show them, I think is a better way to put it. Absolutely. So I know you mentioned this and I I'm not going to I'd draw you down a little bit of a rabbit hole here on this first question I kind of had and and I think Anthony can should definitely chime in. So with engine, and I think all three of us are kind of engine You know, we're not the the max nerd that that that title belongs to Coloromagus is the max engine nerd in country. but I think, you know, we're all pretty, you know, nerdy about our engine stuff. What do you what do you kind of see as the positives in in engine right now when it comes to equipment, nozzles, hoses, pumps, everything? And what I'll actually I asked Anthony this first. What do you kind of see as the the you know, anything that you see right now that's making us way better as far as our engine company operations go with all the different hose and not and there's a hundred different hoses, nozzles and sh and portable devices out there. Do what do you kind of see that going right now in your eyes, Cameroon? I think the the positive is that there's so much out there, but there's an understanding of how to use it out there. Like on our department we were in very, very cheap hose when I first came on, hundred Psi fog nozzles, everything. And the decision was made to go to lower pressure nozzles. And there was a education issue there of we're gonna keep this cheap hose that needs a hundred psi nozzle to create a spine for it. And it the salesman for the nozzle did not wanna provide education on that. So a a bad decision was made. Eventually it got corrected and was good for us. But in the short term, hey, here's these new nozzles. You guys can pump them at this. Then we start going to fires and everyone's having kink problems because the nozzle hose isn't matching. And it turned out to be a tough thing for the city because all of a sudden nineteen twenty engines were having to get completely restocked hose that were they were having to buy that they were not planning on to make these nozzles work. Plus they were going to they were changing the discs out so that we were at Seventy five PSI, so they weren't getting down to fifty like they wanted to. And I don't think you see that as much anymore because I think there's so much information available about the fact of how to make our equipment work properly that you're not having somebody buy equipment that is a ten, fifteen year purchase and it ends up being a mistake. Where at least for us, we are a big enough fire department that the budget is there to where they were able to recover. And it took years to replace everything. So The reserves trucks had no no no hose on it. If you had to get a reserve, everything had to come off of your truck. you know, there was times where, you know, some of your hose, it might have had to be that cheaper hose because you burned through some sections or the hose got damaged and stuff like that. And it was a it was like a five year period of like getting to where we are now where everything is what we're we're in and we're designed to be in, but it happened immediately on the spot. Like you got a problem. And we had to buy, I mean, a lot of hose. And a lot of people, you know, if you make that mistake where you only bought you bought this new nozzle because hey, we're gonna drop down to 50 PSI and you didn't understand the not the hose has to match it, there's a lot of departments, especially smaller departments, not gonna be able to go out and just go to their city and say, Hey, we got a problem and address it immediately, you're gonna you're gonna be in some sort of problem where you're probably gonna end up taking that you spend all this money on all these nozzles and you're gonna put discs and these fog nozzles go back to a hundred Psi to make the hose work until over the course of years you can fix it. And now you spent all this money and you got nothing for it. And I think the biggest thing is there's so much education out there. There's so much information that that shouldn't happen. I'm sure you could you could appreciate it. Atlanta's a lot bigger than we are. Like just 'cause it's even in your department, we had people that knew this was going to be a problem. They weren't being listened to. you know, and Hopefully with the amount of information that's out there, that that doesn't happen anymore. And I think the biggest important part to me about that is most of the vendors are are not allowed to not share that information anymore. Like the companies they represent don't want you out there selling something that's not going to work just to get the sale. They that so many of the manufacturers, like Shane was talking about, they're so focused on education that they want you to get their product. and be happy, not just buy their product. They want you to stay in their product. They want you to be happy with their product. That so many of them are out there they're hosting training, let alone just showing up and doing educational stuff to make sure you get their product and you're happy with the decision you made. Because when we buy products, they're not a one year decision. That's a ten year purchase. If you make a mistake, that's a ten year mistake. That's a ten year mistake. Yeah. So kind of same same line there, Shane, especially 'cause I think you have a different perspective. One, you've been you've been the end user and now you're trying to educate future end users. So where do you kind of see all this going as far as the advancements and where we're at today? Well, you know, just to kind of reiterate what Anthony said, right? The inf we're like in the information age, right? It's so easy to get information, whether it's just on your phone or through social media. You know, I mean you can find all the answers as long as you just put a little bit of effort into it. Right. And if you don't if you can't find the answer, it's very easy to find somebody that's already kind of lived that experience and been through it. Right. I mean, you know, at least for Todd and I, like we've been, you know, we went through the evolution, right? We lived the evolution, right? Where we went from a hundred PSI fire service, fog nozzle fire service to like what the new trend is, which I think is great, which is low pressure systems, right? And, you know, Much like what you said, Anthony, you know, I came in, I got in ninety eight. We're you know, hundred PSI, fog nozzle, you know, real lightweight hose, fire department, you know, and as as we as I got educated through the process, you know, I'm like, hey, we we need to change our ways, right? And then you try to change the system, but exactly like you said, it's like, Okay, well, we'll change the nozzles, right? Like, you we'll change the nozzles first. And You know, I'll say through even just a lack of education, maybe, you know, like it's like I was like, all right, let's just go with it, right? I take what I can get. And then we, you know, we'll get our f you know, our smooth board nozzles in. And then but we're using our low pressure, you know, I mean, we're using our high pressure hose. And of course, you know how that turns out, right? And then of course, you put it on, it's terrible. So what do they blame, right? The firefighters already already firefighters don't like change, right? We know that. So they're already upset that you are telling them we're gonna change the nozzles. Then we put it on our hoses and then it just gets terrible results. And then two things happen, right? One, they hate the nozzle, right? I told you this nozzle sucks. And two, they hate me because I made the change, right? I I I I initiated the change. And so. You know, now you're now you're like trying to get out there and educate more and try to do your thing and then through, you know, attrition and budget, you know, when budget constraints and then you eventually get the system right. And so the I I guess kind of what you're saying is, you know, what you're asking is there's lived experiences of the process, the pains and trials going through it. And so, you know, there's really no reason why any fire department should have to go through that today. Right. People can kind of tell you all the pitfalls that's gonna happen. and we already kind of because we know which way we want to head in the in the service, I think there's a lot of lot of focus on trying to develop, you know, on the better mousetrap, so to speak, right? Like, hey, let's what can we do to make this hose better? And and I think what's really cool, at least from what I see, is like the the manufacturers, they're not like think tanking it. amongst themselves, they're actually asking firefighters now, right? They're going out there, they're asking the instructors, right? They're going out there and being like, hey, what do you think? You know, like what do you think we need to work on? You know, what what can we develop? I mean, and of course, everybody wants to be the first on the market with something better, right? I mean, at I at the end of the day, it's a business thing, right? But I think it benefits the fire service, right? If done properly. If if you're making change If you're making change for the better, if you're actually looking for a problem and addressing it, I think that's great, right? change for the sake of change is never good. But but when you're saying, hey, what did you s what do you not like about this or where where would you improve this? You know, and then now you're willing to actually there the manufacturer is willing to listen to that and say, okay, you know, like let's let's work on that. And how's about you guys get involved? You know, we'll we'll we'll work on some prototypes and we'll send it your way. You know, you you go ahead and test it out, you know, take it to jobs and and tell me what you think, right? And I think that's that's the that's the best part of what I see, you know, coming down the pipeline, which is any advancements that are happening are typically happening through the with the development, you know, or the input of actual end users now, as opposed to, you know, we we've seen in and no brands out there, but we've seen gimmicky stuff pop out in the past, right? And you're just like, Who whose idea was this? You know, like what what made you think this was a great idea? Yeah. I remember getting a prototype nozzle, and first thing I said was they called me and they're like, What did you think? And I said, Yeah, this thing's terrible. And then I never got a prototype from them again, right? But but you know, it's it's one of those things, right? You should ask the you should ask the end user for ideas before you actually build it. And then and then say, What do you think? Yeah, and I think given a prototype nozzle. it was actually already being mass produced, but our department was looking at this particular nozzle and they dropped it off the firehouse and wanted me to put it on the engine. You know, w we didn't know anything about it. So we went out back and we struck some hose and we put this nozzle on there and we tried a bunch of different stuff and it got taken off that hose line and put right back in the office and I Send quick email say we are not gonna use this nozzle, we're gonna get somebody killed with this thing. again, no brands or anything. But I agree. I think the let I want to I'm gonna backtrack this question a bit. If you are Shane, if you're gonna give like best advice on where to get the information from, because if I go to a certain site, I'm gonna hear this is the greatest. ever. Yeah, yeah. I go the next site. This is the worst ever. And then the next side over, it's okay. You know, so and I love that T shirt that Elkart has, you know, how we're drowning sometimes in all this information between internet, trade shows, small conferences, big conferences. How how do we how do we get all this without being so overwhelmed? And never really get an answer on anything. Yeah, you know, that's a great question. I think that's it's actually too much information might be the downfall of the current firefighter, right? Exactly what you said, right? There's like so many opinions. I I you know, of course we're s we're sort of old school, right? So like I d I always say just stick with tried and true. And and for one, obviously, you know, Elkhart's got their great brass tacks hard facts series, right? I mean If you think back to like what you know back when I first first started going to FDIC, right, taking the engine essentials class, right, which was And Andy's old class. You know, it if you look at what Engine Essentials was teaching, you know, back with back then, and it was an eight hour class, you know, it's El Car did a great job of basically packaging that class and putting it in in palatable video, you know, little sections and videos. And you know, so you can great you can get great information right there that's tried and true, right? I mean, it's not it's not something that is hey, I I got this cool idea, let's try this, you know, and then put it on make we'll make a video. I mean, you know how it we could make a video right now of some crazy idea we want that we want to just put out there and then you'll get a you know, you'll get a thousand views on it and all of a sudden it's the new trend, right? Like it's like, hey, everybody's doing this crazy thing. So, you know, I definitely would start by using something like Elkart's, right? Brass tacks, hard facts right right there. And then of course, I always I would always tell guys go to go to conferences, right? If you and if you can get out to you know conferences, you know, whether it be the big ones like, you know, FDIC or whatever else is out there that, you know, that guys are teaching at and and kind of vet your instructors too a little bit right you should always vet your instructors right i mean i i hate to say it but i i know guys that you know are teaching that you know maybe they got two years on the job and they they really should be students i i feel you know again i'm old school right i feel like you should you should be a student for a while before before you decide to be an instructor right and you know i think I I think I met Anthony, I met you at FDIC years ago. And I think that's when we were all we were all students still, right? I mean, I was going I've been going there for twenty years, right? And I was a student for quite a bit of that, you know, 20 years. And then finally they got tired of seeing me as a student, so they pulled me into the pulled me into the instructor world. But you should, you know, you definitely should I feel try to you're never gonna master your craft, but you should really be comfortable what you're doing before you just decide like, hey, you know, I made I made friends with this instructor group. I've got two years on the job. They really like me and I'm just gonna I'm gonna be an instructor now, you know? Yeah, and I and and and that that, you know, not to go down that down that rabbit hole too, but yeah, there is a lot of that and I get that. and there are some incredibly n you know, I I've always look forward to meeting and talking with new instructors, younger, even the younger guys, because they have a lot of great ideas. but I think on the on the product side, I don't want to hear from somebody who's never used the product and not used it on one fire. I want to talk to that guy who has pushed 30 hallways with that nozzle or with that hose and be able to give me true real life feedback. Not because they're being sponsored or they're representing something, or they have you know, some kind of tie to a friend with a company or anything like that. I want to hear from, you know, that guy that's actually using that that thermal imager or whatever when you know, whatever the scenario may be. So kind of same thing for you, Roet. you know, the overwhelming information and and best advice to guys that maybe are looking at stuff right now and maybe they're finding themselves overwhelmed when they get on the internet and you type in nozzle. my four billion pages open up. and how they can, you know, maybe dial that in a little bit easier and simpler. I and you know kind of piggybacking off of some stuff Shane just said. Yeah, I think as far as like the internet is that there's groups out there that are are really out there to try to help each other. And like Kyle started engine company resurrection. You put a question in there, you're gonna get You might drown in information, but none of it's like manufacture information. It's it's guys sharing their experience with different products. That's one way. I like like Shane talked about, getting someone to come out and and do a demo or whatever with equipment, but they they can't actually sell it to you. They don't have an end goal of a commission or a sale. Their end goal is education and making sure you're happy with the product. we've got a few vendors, I guess you call them, distributors here in our area. And I like that some of them, like specifically with nozzles, they represent multiple companies. They're not just selling TFT. They're not just selling L cart. So they aren't incentivized to only sell you this one brand and try to push you in that direction. They want you to make a purchase from them, but they do represent multiple brands. So they're not steering you one direction. They want you to be happy with your purchase. So I like that and the fact that you can get a guy that come out and demo equipment so that you are getting a hands-on evaluation with it, but they're not trying to s steer you towards a certain company. I do like that. And then like for us, when we do our demos, you might come out as a vendor and you're on site for the initial demo. When we do our committees making choices, like when I ran the the high rise committee and we bought all new equipment, vendors were not allowed on site when we did when we brought all sixteen members of that committee on site. You you had to drop your equipment off and trust it. And it had to perform when our people used it with only our people because that's what was going to do it on scene. and I like vendors that want when when I get away from what Shane's talking about, someone who's not there to make a sale. And I do have vendors that are hoping you make a sale from them and they're trying to push you in that direction for a commission. Hey, you got to drop your stuff off and leave. And some of them are going to fight to stay there 'cause they want to make sure it works. And other ones really believe in their product and they go, Yeah, how much do you need? When g when do you want it? And when do you want us to pick it up? And y that to me makes the difference. but there's a lot of resources out there to get that information. But I'm big about before you make a purchase, use it. obviously in a training set scenario, it's only gonna perform so much for you that's different than the the chaos of a real scene. And you're you got someone under no stress that's pumping a line correctly and On scene, maybe it's underpumped, it's overpumped, whatever, but you are putting it through its paces and you don't have a vendor rep over your shoulder making sure everything's perfect. Yeah. That's a good point. Or you don't realize you don't realize they're making it perfect for that hose or that nozzle. And that's not actually what you think is perfect for that. And now when you buy it, you are pumping it different because you're going off of what you believe is right, and they were doing some different things that you didn't know about. And that's been some experience I've seen as well of it isn't being pumped the way you think it is. And then when you get it, you're not happy. and that's why I like the way we do it, that hey, yeah, you came and you showed us how to use it. That's great. Now it's time for you to leave. And we're gonna put these products up against each other with no vendor reps on there, and our people are gonna pick which one they like the way it performs for them. Yeah, I think I think that's a gr I think that's such a so I think it's the only right way to do it. Where I don't have the perfection of it. I like putting we do a lot with Huslows, which you know, and I love taking the guide hasn't even been taught a thing, and just just do this and just walk him through it once and how easy certain things are if you just show and then start putting those stressors on them and they can watch and hey, this works under this, this worked on what I had to go upstairs. I think the same thing with products. it it's the same exact avenue. you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of new little webbing and drag devices I see out there right now and again it's the same thing until until they're tried and tested on actual fire grounds. I'm not sure, you know, if that's the path, but definitely I can create some realistic environments to test that product and we should. And not just in a sterilized parking lot. Yeah, it's gonna work great in that sterilized parking lot every single time. Just like every technique works really good in the engine room floor every time. Man, we are dragging everybody. Yeah, I I should say this too, right? I forgot I forgot to mention it. educ to get you know, e education or great ideas. So find your local fool chapter, right? That's another Another great little plug there. Find your local fools chapters. There's a they're all out there. Atlanta has I think Atlanta has the largest fools chapter, I if I'm not mistaken. they did they're trying to rebuild the Metro Fools right now. They got some new guys running it again. they did host a small conference last year. got brought in some people. So they're they're trying. They they legitimately are trying to get that back. the Georgia area is a is kind of a tough nut when it comes to training. because you have so many big departments in the metro Atlanta area, with the city itself. Now you and you got Gwinnett County, DeCab County, then you have all these other Cobb Counties, a monster department, which you know, some of our friends work for that we teach with, like Sean Gray. so they're very insulated departments. So the Fool's chapters really are targeting the smaller outlier departments that are just outside the fringe area of the metro. So yeah, they're rebuilding. They're they had a pretty good turnout for the nine eleven Snow Mountain Walk, which I was glad to see on the on Facebook and everything. So they're making steps in the right direction. But do you want to say anything else about your chapter while you're right there, Shane? you know, well we've been we've been in existence since twenty twelve. you know, no, we we we we do three classes a year, right? Three we'll bring in we'll bring in instructors, you know, for all you know, peers, right? And we'll bring them in and And you know, we're isolated, obviously, right? We're we've got a whole lot of water in between us and and easy, you know, reach of education. So it just makes it a lot easier for the guys locally to, you know, get outside education. You know, you could easily get inbred, you know, when you live on an island, right? As far as education goes. It all you know, that whole phrase, it always worked, right? It always worked for us. yeah. Well, you don't know what you don't know, right? And so by bringing in instructors, you know, FDIC type instructors to Hawaii, you know, we can make it accessible easier, right, for the for the other guys, right? They still gotta hop on a plane if they live on on another island, right? And the guys are still making that commitment to fly in, but it's hundred fifty dollar plane ticket as opposed to a thousand dollar plane ticket, right? They don't have and they can go home at the end of the day. They don't have to get a hotel room and all that kind of stuff. And you know, we we've done I I was actually counting this morning just to kind of get an idea. So next month we're gonna have James Johnson. He'll be our 25th instructor. wow. You know, we and and and to be honest, we really didn't start rolling hard with the classes until 2018, right? 2018 was when our first instructor I brought in was Kurt. You know, well, I should say our first instructor we ever brought in was Bobby Halton, but that was back in 2013. You know, and then we we did a couple of classes, and then we, you know, like like all good firemen, we were not good at business. So we right basically ran out of money to do anything. And then in twenty eighteen, we decided we were gonna get started, you know, and just like really get started hard again. And and that was a direct result of a really bad fire that the Honolulu fire department had, right? They the the Marco Polo fire, which is a pretty significant high-rise fire that didn't let's just say it didn't go as well as it as they had hoped it would go. And I saw, you know, I saw an opportunity, right? There's never let a good crisis, you know, be wasted, right? And so it was like, okay, let's Let's bring in an instructor and let's talk about education. And then from 2018, we just started, you know, bringing in instructors, you know, every four months. and then of course we had COVID, right? That shut us down in Hawaii. That shut us down for like damn near two years. and then once we opened up again, you know, we we kicked it off and we're we just no we haven't skipped a beat, right? As in fact, the first guy I brought in after COVID was Shannon. You know, we brought Shannon to give his nuggets from the right seat class and you know and and it's it's it's great, right? I bring in friends, right? I bring in guys that I I trust and guys I know that can teach and you know I they have a good message. We just had Kyle here, right? And so, you know, I think the guys locally are really benefiting from the classes, you know, just not having to spend I mean what what does it cost to go to a conference? a plane ticket, you know, from Hawaii and then hotel rooms, right, for a week. You know, you're spending three to five thousand dollars, right? Just to just to easily just to take in education, right? In the name of education. So bring it we'll spend the money, bring the instructor here and just make it easy. Well your outreach you're you're touching more than the one or two guys that you would send to a to a major conference. versus now you can touch, you know, thirty, forty or fifty guys. Yeah, we're getting you we're typically getting anywhere from fifty to, you know, upwards of near a hundred guys showing up, right, for a class. You know, and and mind you now in Hawaii we only have really six six fire departments, right? Like each island is its own each island is its own county, right? That's that's four fire departments right there, right? Honolulu Fire, Maui County. Hawaii Fire, which is the big island in Kauai. And then you got the Federal Fire Department. And then you have the ARF, which is, you know, they cover the entire state. So really we only have six, six fire departments here. So to bring these guys in, and there's about 2,000 members, I would say, roughly, you know, across the whole, you know, the whole state. And so we're, we're capturing a good amount, you know, every every single class. You know, and that's Yeah. But I you know, the reason I wanted you to share that was, you know, for other fools chapters or guys you're with associated with fool's chapters, you know, you've seen the benefits. I think a lot of apartments, you know, with today's economy, they it's it's you can't just send, you know, 17 dudes up to Indianapolis for five days. Absolutely. It's just so the smaller conferences I still think I still get asked do you think there's too many? And I don't think there's too many. I think there's not always quality. conferences everywhere you go to. But if a guy goes to one and maybe it wasn't the greatest but it cost him a hundred and fifty bucks and he picked up one or two things, then it was definitely worth his time and his money. versus, you know, like you said, that hey it always worked, you know, hey that g we we've always did really good dragging guys in the engine room. I don't know why it didn't work here in this house fire. So yeah I think those are some good points. You know what's really cool though, I think for from my side is Know because we've been doing this for you know a decent amount of time now, it's like we're planting seeds, right? We always say, you know, we're we're planting seeds, and our our members, right, are now the guys that are battalion chiefs and you know, captains and assistant chiefs, you know, fire chiefs. And you know how it is, like you know, now education is something that they are sort of into, they're open to new ideas. They're the guys that wanted to do something that wasn't able to do it, but now they can. And so I think that's affected a lot of change also within our fire service here locally. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, and that's gonna kind of lead me into to something else. And it was funny, the reason I wrote this down this morning, I was scrolling through Instagram and I saw a little quickie thing that Brian Chief Brian Brush had posted. And it was about trends in the fire service. And I thought, man, this kind of works out good for the podcasts today. And you know, the the two probably biggest trends, which you know, depending on how you want to look at them, drones, and he brings up drones and AI. Those are the two biggest hot subjects right now in the fire service when it comes to technology. But he transferred that into something I thought was even more important, and that is the firefighter rescue survey. And I thought, wow, what a great question to ask, you know, both of you today and talk about amongst us about how engine company operations are such a vital, vital part of supporting the search and rescue avenue, whether you're searching off the line, which you know that's we only have 10 subjects here, but how that data is actually if I was gonna say if I wanted something to trend, I'd say I want that to trend. And I want what Basil's doing. with the firefighter May Day information. That's the stuff we should be pushing more from, you know, we're talking about how much information is out there. I'm still amazed a little bit sometimes when I when I'm teaching classes and I throw up the the logo and the link to the firefighter rescue survey and I see how many guys have to click that because they had not heard of it yet. And it's not those guys followed. I mean last year or year before we all had it in our presentations at FDIC. it's been around now, everybody's blasting it out all the time. But I I kinda want to get your opinion, I'll start with Anthony, how Firefire Rescue Survey and Engine Company operations and the the sheer numbers, over five thousand documented rescues, how those kind of go hand in hand and how critical it is to get that fast water and get that get water into that building or through a window or whatever the scenario may be to support the actual rescue operation. Yeah, I mean, obviously it's important to have we're we're in like we've talked about the whole time, a a a society of information right now. We have so much information our fingertips. So having documented information that's proving what your experience has shown you that that fast water is important. That I mean, I heard it from Chief Rhodes in a class at MAFSE, I don't know, ten years ago. And it was it was on the first UL study. And where I come from, that was not a well received study because the cliff notes came out first and it didn't it did not go over well where I work with the senior guys. And it was like, let me this guy runs the Georgia Smoke Diver program. Like how's he pushing the cliff notes we heard? And but but like the main thing I took out of that class had nothing to do with the class. It was how he opened it. And it was that, hey, every fire in history's gone out. What we're really there for is the search. And like I that that clicked in my head and it was it stayed with me forever that all the years in the engine, like my job is only there to buy time for the search. Get water on the fire and buy them guys time to do the search. what I would like to see trend, not just from the engine side of like the rescue survey, is taking the time to go through there and find the ones that are examples that match you. Don't just look at everybody, like the whole country. And you're looking at like I put I personally put two rescues in that survey. Some of them are not some one of them will match probably everybody in America. A 1200 square foot house, right? One of them was on the seventh floor. That's not gonna match everybody. Don't just look at raw data and numbers. If you want to use that data and use it for a drill or educate your younger guys, pull it, take the time to pull it apart and find what matches you. The first income engine company had response times of this, that matches what we do. They were riding with four, that matches me, or they were riding three. They were in these size houses, which are what we deal with. Now you're taking, even though it might not be regional because it's it maybe it wasn't in the southeast, which is me and you, but it was buildings we respond to with the staffing we respond to, with the response time we respond to. Now I'm really taking data and making it regional. And using it to what now I can take it and go this look look at this house. This is what we deal with. This response you want me to get buy in on data. That's how you do it with me personally is not just numbers. You made it real to me. Like if I run one and two story houses, I don't care and and it does it sounds bad to say that, but like in a drill setting or a company drill setting, company education setting. If we don't have high rise buildings, I don't need those that data set in that I want you to go over buildings we run with our staffing, with our response time and our response models. And now I can take that data and go, this is how it applies to us and this company, this fire department, and actually use the data to educate our people versus just pulling numbers and saying, Hey guys, look at this. We've got this many rescues or it took this much time. Take the time if you're gonna run a drill with data and make it regional and specific to you to match your setting. And that's how that's the trend I wanna see. That's I wanna see guys that use the data and take the time to make it match your situation so that you're truly educating your people on how to use data to make decisions that match your situation, not just take data and make general decisions and you're using stuff that doesn't match your situation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because a lot a lot of that can be taken you know, w without without that other information, you know, did you arrive with two person engine company or a six person engine company that that drives how that how we're going to look at that data compared to my organization. You arriving with three engines and three ladder trucks. Not very many departments, you know, the big cities, that's how they're going to show up. FDNY is showing up with 400 trucks and 900 dudes. So yeah, their day their data numbers and times are going to be totally different than Mobile or Atlanta Or Washtaw Parish, which I was just teaching at. Totally different organizations, different staffing levels, different response matrix of how many you're sending, and where you may show in that some of that data. I we're well, we send four engines. Well, the first engine may get there in three to five, second engine six to seven. That's third and fourth engine may have a ten, twelve, thirteen minute response time. based on how this, you know, size of the organization or the the, you know, the the square miles that that organization is responsible for. So I I think that when I've tore down some of those, it's really interesting. and it's even more interesting that a lot of those reports are coming from the small and medium sized organizations and they're having a lot of success. I mean the data does show that obviously I think we already know all this you know where victims are being located some of that hard data we can definitely drop. where victims are located at. I found one interesting thing the other day about when you could when you have both search and rescue and fire tech happening simultaneously, how much the numbers go up on survival rates in those scenarios. I thought that I think that's something we should definitely be promoting on how you're making your first two assignments versus everybody on FireTac and we'll search afterwards. There has to be a fine line and combination there as well. So Yeah, I've always thought like with the using data, like one of the hardest things to do is take it and make it regional of like I I don't know how it was for you, Shane, with with the federal side, but like I know from like Atlanta for us, just the fact of coming out of a double house. I'm showing up and I'm a dedicated engine and I got a dedicated truck on my tailboard when we pull up, that that's a huge difference in making decisions using data. than someone that's pulling up as a single engine by themselves or that isn't getting a truck and you're making decisions as you go, you know, of who's going to fill what role. that that that that's just such a huge part of it to me is the and that's the hard part of using data is how to make it match your situation. Yeah. And I think you gotta have people willing to take the time to make it match your actual situation versus just take raw data and try to just go, this is the way it is. Cause even us, we don't have all double houses, depending on where you're at in the city. My world was similar to yours. Double house, everybody's on top of each other downtown, very similar to Atlanta. You get on our west side, guys are gonna be there alone by themselves, especially in single engine houses. Like even you were in a single engine house, the truck was coming up quick, and you were getting a bunch of them. Like all of that to me plays in, and that's the trend I wanna see with data is Don't just be obsessed with the numbers. Take the time to make it and find what truly you can use to match your situation if we're going to make decisions with it. And I do think you you're seeing that. I don't think everyone's just taking raw numbers and going, this is what it is. I think people are taking the time to try to make it situational to them. But I think that's the trend I want to see is everybody putting in the time if you're going to use data for training to help with decision making, is that? Hey, we're in Atlanta. Was this made where the first do engine and first do truck pulled up together? They came out of the same house. That's a huge aspect. yeah. Because what do you have? You have the engine and the truck instantly. Probably the it like in mining your worlds, I know, because I know guys from your job and you know ones from mine. Like it's not even necessarily simultaneous. You're still stretching a line. That search is happening. It already happened, yeah. Because they know the line's coming. They're not there is no decision of search or water. They're happening. simultaneous, but technically the search is going first. They're in their way before we are. So I I I think that's a big part of taking that data and really making it useful is finding those situations that match you. Now that that now that data is legitimately very local to you, even though it happened across the country. And now you can really learn from it. Yeah, I I agree. Met metrics are important, right? Metrics are important if used properly like like Anthony said, right? Like you you need to do your Due diligence, right? Definitely filter through the noise, find out what works best, you know, what what's similar, like to you know, my setup. what and then you can see what worked, right? And I think, you know, coming from a fire service that I think I'll I'll say still needs to really develop a truck culture, now you can use this data not just for refining your truck, but to actually fight for why we need a truck culture. Right. And why? Cause you know, information does one good does one real good thing, right? As as my my my one of my mentors in in fire behavior, John Tanaka out of Everett Fire, right? He Captain Tanaka was a great guy, taught fire fire behavior to pr pretty much everybody in Washington State in the Pacific Northwest. And he would basically talk about the numbers, right? And like, you know, this is what fire is really happening. And what and what happens is he once education is out there, as he says it it removes the boogeyman, right? It gets rid of the boogey. Every kid is afraid of the boogeyman, right? It's under my bed, it's in my closet. So as a dad, what do you do? Right? Turn on the light. Show them what's under the bed. There's nothing under your bed. You know, there's nothing in your closet. And and information that's available can can kind of get rid of the boogeyman, right? And once the boogeyman is gone, now we're a lot braver and willing to try things, right? We're willing to, you know, to actually say, okay, let's commit to this. Let's let's let's develop a a culture. Let's let's be a more aggressive, let's do a more aggressive search. Let's make what do we what does it take to to do an aggressive search? Right. And that information is out there now. okay, we need to, we need to it it'll shed light on your shortcomings, right? we need to we need to work on our engine our our you know our our engine work because we're not get maybe we're not getting that line, you know, fast enough. We're not getting water on quick enough, right? Hey, maybe we don't maybe we don't think about ventilation. Maybe again, another boogeyman, right? Maybe we don't do vertical ventilation. Well may maybe we can now, right? Maybe we should think about it. You know, stuff like that. And I think that from my world, I think that's the beauty of something like the rescue survey, because you know, at the end of the at the end of the day, everything should be to support the search, right? That's what we that's the I mean, that's the number one goal of the fire department, right? Protect life. And if we're not if we're not doing everything we can do to be good at that, then we're we're sort of like missing the we're you know we're missing the the mark here. And so how can we be better at that? Well You can kind of throw just, you know, you can throw things at the wall and see what sticks. Or you can actually now use something like the rescue survey and be like, hey, look, these guys are successful. Let's see who fits. Find all the success. You know, maybe you'll see trends, right? These guys are always successful. There's a lot of saves here. And then kind of see what demographic now, right? What fits our demographic? What, what, what fire department that's winning. looks like our fire department size wise you know response wise, you know, staffing, especially staffing, right? You know, I can't I can't look at a six man truck company and and think like, yeah, we're gonna do that. Like that's not gonna happen. Right. We're gonna flip, we're gonna cut holes and we're gonna search. Yeah, that's not real works. So information is a is a double edged sword, right? Like if if used properly, then it's it's great. If if misused, then it could really frustrate you. Right. Like why why are we why are we not as good as such and such? Right. And and we had this talk previous right before we went live, right? Everybody's baseline is unique, right? You gotta know what your baseline is. And you know, I think that's one of the things I know that we didn't do it in our department, which I really wanted to push for was, you know, what's your what's your critical skills, whatever that, you know. Whatever the critical task skill, you know, task level skills are that you want done in your fire department, like you gotta be good at stretching the pre-connect, throwing a 24-foot extension, forcing a door, whatever these things are, and standardize that drill, and then actually, you know, you don't have to make maybe you don't have to make everybody go through it, but randomize that, you know, just literally just pick. People from all over the organization and different, you know, different, don't get all the young studs. You know, get all the get the old dudes and get the young dudes and and the senior men and actually run them through this drill and get your get your data, right? Standardized drills equates to standardized data. And then from that point, we can figure out what our baseline is. And and it doesn't matter if you're amazing or if you suck at it. Your baseline is your baseline. And that's where you start. And then we have room, you know, we know where we need to improve now, right? Let's just say just something simple as masking out, right? Maybe we all suck at masking out. It takes us a minute 20 to put our mask on, right? Well, you can't deny it. That's your average. But we now know where we need to be. And we can't go from a minute 20 to to 20 seconds. So now we say, hey, our new standard is, you know, we got to get to a minute 10. You know what I mean? And we're gonna work on that. And once we get to a minute ten, we cut it down again. And we cut it down again. We just start shaving time. You know, I think that's that's huge right there, right? That is data is a point is data is very useful if you if used properly. Yeah, and I I I think both of you definitely a hundred percent nailed that. I think one of the things that I that I've started doing in a lot more classes is not just using the hard data points just from one survey, but using data from everything from all, all the unbelievable studies that UL has done. And the same thing happened, like like Anthony referenced when one of the very first studies that I think got the most pub. The very first time one of their studies went national was when the word transitional fire tech came out. And we had guys in Atlanta that had nothing but this is how The whole fire service and we'll never go interior again and we're gonna cook everybody inside the building and because everybody just read the one word. Well the the the cliff notes got published. It's like the cliff notes went wild and no one got the whole thing. They just went off cliff notes. But it was the same though, I'm sure for Shane and probably a little bit of Anthony and definitely when I was coming up, we never even considered. And it wouldn't even cross your mind to open the nozzle up without seeing fire. And now I think we've unfortunately, I think we turn that corner, but then I go the, you know, some road trips, I'm like, have you guys never heard of any of these things before? and some departments are very sad that we don't flow water and we're we don't want to do water damage. You know, it's a one-story frame. Everything in this house is Is already gone. They're not salvaging that that was that was definitely the the exact verbiage when we when we first started, right? They were more afraid of causing water damage than than anything else. And it you know, I I always wanted to kind of dig a little deeper and figure out where did that start. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like w when did we start worrying about water damage? If if I'm talking about multifamily I'll talk about, you know what, I'm won't worry about water runoff after we put out the damn fire because the apartment's below that apartment. That that's where my water damage concerns are really gonna lie. but when you can take a, you know, and again, you don't need to spend firefires aren't gonna do well with a six-hour data class. But if I can take that data and put it on the street for a hands-on class, and now they get the true relationship between the advantages of flowing water. downrange when the hallway is just almost untenable, but versus where we just push down the hallway and your head was on fire, but you didn't push till you saw fire. the taking that and be able to show them here's advantages of having the door open, here's advantages of having the door closed. Here's advantages of hit and an outside hit, here's advantages of making the interior hit. Look at how look at the gas contraction, look at you know with the thermal imagers now, you can show the students how fast we're cooling those upper layers and you can actually let them see the vapors coming down the hallway. but taking the data with the science, I think is our next logical step to make that almost uniform throughout the fire service when it comes to on the instructional side. instead of this is how you always do it, or this is the only, you know, I'm I'm I I'm bashist and I know Roet's heard me say it a thousand times. I hate when I hear somebody say, This is the only way to do this, because that's the Biggest falsity in the American Fire Service. There's a lot of ways to do this job. But I think when we start combining everything you guys said, along with UL, along with Firefighter Rescue Survey, along with Firefighter May Day survey, and we can take and capture the right data with the right settings, the right apparatus, the right response matrix, the right staffing, how successful and how quickly successful you can make an organization. It may be struggling in certain areas, whether it's on their search or on their fire attack and we start combining a lot of these. I think we can see a a huge impact in some of those things. And we just did it. one of the one of the evolutions we just did the other night. I assigned I married up engine company. I was running command. So I married up engine companies because they run short. And then the next engine I assigned search. I didn't tell them where to go. I said I need primary search on the building. Just left it that I want to see what you I'm trying to force decision making on the officers. And they immediately they were still forced in entry. The hose line was there. And they hadn't they had just started in the front door when they walked up. And I just reassigned them. I'm trying to force them in with the data we have. You're protected. You can go ahead and go with it. They just had never searched without hose lines. They're just that's not their their history. They do all their her searches off of hose lines. So when they started seeing the advantages of this and how fast that hallway got cooled by, you know, running, you know, sending water down range, they they really found by, you know, we're using actual science and we're using actual data points to show you what you can actually do. I think we should all be striving. I think every inside of the country should be striving for that and not just, you know, get in there and yell and scream and and you know spray a little bit of water and see if we can meld each other. I think that's the worst training we could be doing right now. You know, another another good thing about the like the rescue survey and data is you might find that depart that successful department that fits your demographic. Everything about it looks right. And then you can't replicate those numbers for whatever reason. Well now you can actually you know who to contact now. Why not? I'll I if if you're If I know that, you know, hey, Anthony's department's killing it, and you're crushing it, and we're not, and we we're very similar, I can call them up and be like, Hey, what are you doing in your operation that and then compare it to what we're doing? And and maybe we might find out, hey, you know what? Their engine company operation is completely different than what we're doing. And we can take we can take that, you know, and apply that information to what we're doing. You might be screwing up, you may not, you know, we're not screwing up on the search, but we're still not getting the numbers. you know what? It's because we're screwing up on the engine side. You know what I mean? Like it's it's really it's you know, kind of cool. You can actually see the entire playbook now, right? If you call these guys up and figure it out. Well, I think that's again some of that rescue survey data, some of the work that and some of the classes at Cheap Brush and Kasseros and getting into more of the window initiated search techniques versus everybody, you know, and we've all three been to that fire where You get there and there's, you know, six dudes piled up the front door. And no and nobody's move making progress. And the whole back of the house is tenable with, you know, survivable space. But because we've always gone through the front door, we don't know what to do when we don't go through the front door. That goes into where I can show you that data and say, hey, look, number of rescues, forty well, forget the number on bedrooms, forty-two percent out of bedrooms. Where's the bedrooms at on this, you know, one story single family ranch? they're all on the Bravo side of the house. Huh, I got an idea. Let's go to the Bravo side, make window initiated and maybe make a grab, but at least execute searches and you know, we can isolate or something. You know, showing the advantages of isolation is a really cool thing to do when you're doing live fire. Even a burn building, you isolate if you get a decent burn building, isolate those rooms. I think guys are very impressed at how fast you can get some lift out of that room by taking a window. And now we're protecting the victim, protecting ourselves, and able to execute searches much more rapidly in those scenarios as well. Too. So those are all, I think, really, really, really positive things coming out of that. I mean, think of it this way: as instructors, right? Especially when you were a young officer and you wanted to make a change, how frustrating was it, right? How many times have you been frustrated, banging your head on the wall because you wanna try something, you say, hey, we need to implement this. And you get nothing but you know like dead stares. Like we're not we're not doing that. And and what was and what was the reason that we couldn't sell it? Because we had back then we didn't have data to back up our opinion, right? And so now for these young officers or young firefighters that want to try to make that change. I mean they've got ammunition though, right? Yeah. that's such a good point. I'm I'm going I gotta step away, I have a dog issue. I just need to control you guys. stay on that subject line. I like that. get Roet chime in on that two minutes. Yeah, I mean I I think we've we've hit it pretty well that we're all on the same page that data's out there, it's definitely something can make us better. We just need to take the time to make it local to us. Well, I think I think that a lot of us I know I was guilty of it at times, right? It's like, that's a great idea, but it sounds like a lot of work. Like, I mean, but it's there, right? It's there if you want it. And and I think that's what we have to really understand is that in this day and age, there's really no excuse to, you know, not be able to justify whatever it is you wanna. And and you might think I have this great idea, and then you go into the data, and then you realize, hey, I was. I was way off on this one, right? Like like that's probably not a good idea. And that might correct you too, right? That might it saves a lot of firehouse arguments for sure, right? I've seen that happen. my god. So I think, you know, as as we kind of looked at all this, I think that end result, I I hope everybody takes the you know, what I'm saying the right way, when I talk about instructors, you know, we Doing the basic skill sets, all those things fall right into what everything we just talked about on the data. You if you really read some of those reports, they didn't do anything that wasn't basic skill sets to execute those rescues. stretching hose should not be this big ordeal every time you stretch a hand line. We should be masters at stretching the first attack hose line for an interior operation. yet we still see struggles. you know, there's enough YouTube videos out there to go, what are you guys doing with the hose? So those are things that really focus on and then be able to take that. And I Shane was saying something as I was leaving. man, I can take that data as a young firefighter and maybe promote changing my hose load or changing my hose and nozzle packages, being able to show the advantages using UL information. of why we want to be flowing 150, 160 GPM versus 95 adjustable gallon, you know, adjustable gallons nozzles anymore. So I think those are all just such great points when we talk about engine company operations, data, firefighter rescue survey, UL, all those things mashed together so, so well when we talk about those things. So I have one last question. I was kind of throw this one out there. I gotta put my glass back on 'cause I I can't read my handwriting. I sure in the hell can't read glass on. Write bigger. Yeah. I did I thought I wrote really big, but I guarantee if I held my notebook up nobody could read it. No, nobody can read his handwriting, trust me. And I write like a twelve year old, but his you can't read. Yeah. There's nobody can read that. I could have wrote something bad about both of you. You would never know what I wrote about. You could have been a doctor. Where and I'll I'll start with Shane on this one. And and the reason I'm gonna ask you this first because you kinda have a different insight than we have, being that you're working with these, you know, manufacturers and stuff like that. What do you see as the future of engine company fire ground operations? gosh. It seems like we've done a lot, but Every time I think we've done a lot, all of a sudden some new data comes out or some new, you know, tool or you know, I saw somebody advertising hand grenades the other day again. Well, you know, okay. So is it fair to say that I think we got it we finally got it right? Like I think we're like, you know, we're we're we're so close. We went so back to basics, so to speak. Like, you know, fire service is like, you know, we've come full circle, right? Like, hey, smooth board nozzles and low pressure, you know, low pressure systems are are in vogue again, you know? I mean, I I'd hate to think that, you know, 50 years from now we're gonna say, hey, we're gonna go to, you know, 100 PSI nozzles and and semi fogs again, right? Like, you know, like but you know, you never know, right? It's it's again, it's a it's a s it's cyclic. but maybe it's fair to say that we finally do got it right because we've realized we've kind of gotten back to basics that if you look at what's kind of happening out there now. the like you s you just kind of jokingly said about like hand grenades and stuff like that, right? Like what's coming out now, right? It's more it's more techy or it's more, you know, it it's it's it's gimmicky, right? So like maybe, maybe we got the engine, maybe we finally realized that keep it simple, stupid works, right? Like it's it's there. I personally, you know, again, I'm I'm a dinosaur like you, I guess. I I I like old school. Hey, hey, hey. You know? I'm not as much of a dinosaur, but I'm I'm I'm near extinction. And you know, I I like to keep things simple, right? Like I personally don't like too much technology on my on my f on my engine company operations, right? Because you know, tech ne it it always seems to fail on us when we need it most, right? Hence, I mean, we started a little late today. What happened, right? Right? Technology failed. I mean it's it's just it's inevitable, right? The Wi-Fi goes out and then this is done, right? We don't have a we don't have a s a stream anymore. so as much as possible, I I I like to me personally, I'd like to eliminate as much, you know, moving parts out of the system. You know, anomaly you know, things that could go wrong, because if it can go wrong, it will go wrong, so to speak. What what did Gordon Graham say? If it's predictable, it's preventable, right? And so, you know, the more we can simplify the operation, the I think the better our outcomes will be. And and at the end of the day, firemen are simple creatures, right? Like, you know, firefighters are simple creatures. We we're not we're not exactly known to be the sharpest tools in the shed at times, right? And so if we keep it simple, you know, I think that's where the best outcomes come. Now, granted, you know, our new generation of firefighters are very tech savvy, but you know that maybe that just means that we need to teach them to simplify the operation, right? Don't be an overthinker. Don't depend so much on, you know, I don't me personally, I don't want the remote control hydrant valve. Right. I just want like, you know, hey Anthony, I'm gonna drop you off on the plug and I'm gonna call for water and then you run back to the truck and get your ass in the building. Right. Like that's that's I I I'm okay with that. Right. I don't need to depend on on electronics, right? As much as possible because it never fails, right? I mean, we we're going through a lot of hurricanes this season, right? Mind you, we've been super lucky that they haven't really hit at least not on a while, we haven't really got a lot of you know, a lot of damage. but you know, the first one came, we were without power for like four or five days, right? You should have seen my my daughters, like they had no idea how to act. You what I mean? It's like, yeah, we're camp, we're going camping. my God, they could not function, right? And it's you know, it's so stuff like that, right? I we maybe the goal is we need to teach, you know, instead of saying, you know, everyone is so tech savvy now, maybe we need to say, Hey, it's our it's our op it's our obligation, our it's our goal to kind Teach these guys how to simplify operating. Now, how do how do you simplify this? And how do we eliminate, you know, the tech as much as possible? I'm sure manufacturers might not like to hear that from me, but I do like s I do like simplicity, you know. You know, keep it simple. Give me a compound gauge. I don't need a digital gauge as much as possible, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, I don't think we need Bluetooth in our in our nozzles. Now I do embrace tech in some areas, right? Like I think communications communications has gotten amazing, right? Like We no longer have to we can have it talking in our ears or, you know, bone skull, you know, bone mics and stuff and that's great, right? But when that technology fails and it will fail, then you have to be able to just sing, you know, you know, d figure out how it how to revert back to. So yeah, I don't need I don't need a Bluetooth nozzle. you know, I don't need I don't I really don't. I don't I don't care. I I don't need to have a nozzle that tells me how much pressure I'm getting. You know what I mean? Like I'd hate to see that happen. I just want my my nozzle men to know that, hey, this is this doesn't feel right. Like hey, we're we're we're like, you know, we're twenty gallons we're twenty gallons shy. Let's let's let's pump up the pressure, right? No, I agree. If I have to go, wait, wait, shine your flashlight down here, Captain. Tell me how much we're actually pumping here and you know, did we turn the Bluetooth on on nozzles this morning? Yeah. I don't want to see us ever go that way. I want a firefighter can tell me, hey, hey Cab, they're pumping this a little hot. Hey, they're kind of under pumping. So so to get I guess to answer your question, I think I'd like to think that we actually are finally getting it right as far as engine work goes. So I mean, we're we're actually going out there teaching hose loads. That never happened before, right? Like we're teaching guys how to pack hose and how to stretch hose. That's an entire class. It's like what? Like, yeah, we're just gonna stretch hose. Like that never happened before, right? There'll be no drones, there'll be no Bluetooth, we're gonna put it on our shoulder and Yeah. You know? The most technology you're gonna see is Velcro, you know. And that can that can whoop somebody's ass right there. Velcro whoop somebody's ass. It it can. I've seen that happen many times, you know. I but same qu I I I find out you know, the reason I asked that, I thought your answer was interesting, and I I I agree. Maybe we have maybe we are finally getting it right and whatever we see future wise maybe better, but have we finally failed enough that we have finally realized that the the simple, the basics, sometimes just down dirty work always works. You know. Roet theme, I I don't know if we probably if you had something to add to that. No, Shane, Shane kind of took the words out of my mouth. I was gonna say that I feel like the future is driven by basics now. There's there's no longer a like a drive to just find this new way to do something and complicate it. And then everything is being evaluated by how does it operate with the basics? And everything's being there, there isn't this big push to just like. be new or create anything or like yes there's new products and things like but no one's out there just creating to create to rename something like everything is being evaluated on the basics. We've gotten to a point where nobody wants this and I think Shane said it perfectly simplicity like no one wants any overcomplicated operation. It's being driven back to like what our senior men and our retired members did and evaluating it on that. We're going back to what we've always done that worked. And not trying to just find a new way just to find a new way. We're just trying to find ways to be better at what's working. And I think that's the drive of the future is if you're gonna change everything we're doing, you're probably not getting a lot of a even attention at this point. Like we know what's working. Now how do we just make that better? And I think that's our future is people are focused on that versus finding something new. They're just trying to find ways to be better at what's working. Yeah, and I and I think I think that what we'll see as far as like in the future new wise, I think we'll maybe tactically, I think probably the biggest trends I see right now that are like new, new are more on the tool side of things. I I think technology is a huge bonus when it comes to our exc equipment. I think it's a huge bonus because it still has technology involved. some of the newer hooks and hand tools that some of these guys that are firemen. are developing and the obviously they're using technology for that still you know a hand tool so you're still using your hands but I think that's probably the next wave for in my eyes from the future. I think the only other thing technology I think that that a lot of guys that may listen to this we're gonna see is on S C B A and heads up displays, thermal imaging. I think those are probably the biggest things. I know this is gonna for you'd have to actually really research the archives on thermal imaging, but one of the first ones that I was introduced to was by Carnes and it was on it mounted on the helmet. Yeah, you had to wear it on your on your helmet. Yeah, you had to flip it down and but the camera's only on one side. And so you had to turn your head in the right direction of what you're trying to look at. I know Scott already has, you know, the small version, but the it's like a poster stamp heads up in the mask that they've been working on that technology. But yeah, I think when it comes down to the engine company, the technology would be more based on I'd like to see us be better at building construction technology. When I say that, I mean by that we know exactly what we're getting into. And it that doesn't always have to be that's more of just getting off the truck and walking buildings and everything. But I think our building departments, our fire safety inspection departments. need to be a lot more diligent and sharing. Hey, the subdivision and they're building everything out of Coke cans. Well yeah we may want to know that. I will say this. I will give technology one little prop, right? And kind of what you mentioned with brushes. You know, for departments that can implement a drone program, you know, if if you have the ability to do it in staffing, like somebody can actually get a drone up on scene. Whether it's at a structural fire or a wildland fire, you know, we in in Hawaii we've got a lot of brush fires. I mean, if you got eyes on overhead, that is a game changer right there, right? Yeah. I think so too. And that I I think I think when we say the future and the technology stuff, I think that should be more based on enhancing what we're already doing really, really well. not replacing it. You're never gonna replace a good fireman. I don't need a drone doing water drops. I just need a drone. I think it's it interesting I Atlanta fire has is finally started their drone program. It's I don't know how many months old now, but I've seen some video. It's what a what a game changer. I know FDMY has drones. Is the are the drones in Atlanta, are they coming off like the Chiefs buggy or they're a a totally separate response unit. Yeah, which I totally support that. I I think that again y there y as a chief officer you already have too much you already have enough on your plate without worrying about who's gonna, you know, throw the drone up in the air, you know. this a totally separate unit that responds. I don't know if I need it on a s you know, one story wood frame, but you get a couple thousand square foot apartment building rocking and it's in a new shape or something like that, yeah, I'd love to have that elevate position to be able to see, man, I think he was gonna walk to the next building. When that Walmart's on fire, right? When that Walmart's on fire, I want to see what's up. I wanna know. I wanna know if it's all the way the back. I can't keep having guys do you can't very well do a a real good, thorough lap and know what's going on on the roof and on all four sides by just walking around the building or driving the Chiefs buggy around there. So some true advantages. So yeah, I'd think the future of the fire services technology just enhances what we're doing. But at the end of the day, a nozzle that just has a solid ball and you open it and the whole way it's open and then you f push it forward and shut it. Open closed, right? That's all we need. Open closed. Yeah. I don't want to press a button. I don't want to have to put I don't want to put my password in to open the goddamn nozzle. I can see somebody go once this password only you can open the nozzle. And you can have your exact flow and you can actually put in the nozzle. 145 GPM at 50. Don't hey, don't give them ideas, Todd. Don't give them ideas. Right now, somebody's listening going, hey, there's a good idea. They can plug in their own. We won't even put hell where our trying to get rid of drivers. As far as operators go, they just gotta drive the truck there and press two buttons and it pumps. I've seen that technology, but I haven't I've got it to use it before and it's definitely got Some advantages and disadvantages. Yeah. Well, I mean, look at how many rigs have presets now, right? They kind of all have presets and and it just that alone has created a learning curve, you know, like when like you know, when we at FDIC, when we had our our little station when Daryl and I were off the standpipe, right? And and you would tink the line, right? They dial in their pressure, then you open up the line and then the pressure drops and they're like and they couldn't explain, you know, on it's weird, but they couldn't figure it out. Like I had it dialed in. It's because they're so used to the presets, right? And that governor always it's like there's no governor on this one, guy. Like you gotta you gotta dial up. Like again, so it's it's weird, but you know, we we just have to teach people kind of old school methods at times, right? Because they're so used to to certain certain technologies being the you know, the the The helper, let's call it, right? That keeps them just there's w we never have a problem because it always keeps it regulated. It's like, yeah, well you don't always have that. No, no. I I'm not a big fan of the all the electronic deck gun stuff. you know, where I got an iPad and I'm standing down the street pr you know, pointing my So you yeah, you'll you'll like this. we had for you know, f kind of a hot minute we had the the driver would, you know, press a button on the pump panel and then the deck gun would elevate, right? It would raise. Yeah. And they'd forget to bring it back down and then they back into the barn and you know, and so so guess what the trucks know the rigs no longer come with, right? They they remove the the Yeah, the the it's it it's still there, but you manually have to like pull it up so that you're up there already, right? So you'll remember to put it down. But you could operate from the ground. So they would just forget to bring it back down and I mean I I can count like maybe five engines for sure then. backed into the barn, you know, with the with the deck done up. my gosh. And it typically happened on the morning checkout. That's what made even worse. yeah. That's all that's even better. Yeah. That's usually how compartment, you know, I I think that's where manufacturers just eliminate all swinging doors on apparatus. Everything should be the right I don't know how many acts investigations I did and all it was was they left the compartment door, they were pulling the engine out on the ramp to do pump check. And next thing you know, hey chief, we had an accident. You're Down there doing, you know, pictures and reports for three hours 'cause somebody forgot to push a door shut. So well, I know like St. Louis, they don't even care. They just they just let the door they don't just don't use that compartment anymore. They just take the doors off. They had an i they had a ladder truck take out a bridge and they just put it in as a s as a quint, so they just left it as an engine with no ladder on it. It was a a cool sign of a it's a reserve, but it's still pretty cool. They're like, Hey, we didn't we still gotta we just We don't have a quint, but we do have a backup reserve engine technically. Pump works. Yeah, but as long as the pump works, we'll slap some hose on here somewhere. So well yeah, well Shane, yeah, I think we almost kinda usually we do this little closing remark thing. Any real quick closing remarks, with some of the things we just kind of talked about today, even though we just kinda touched on a bunch of stuff right there. you know what? I I just think it's kind of been my philosophy for the entire fire service is you know I I hate to say back to basics because we should never leave the basics, right? Just you know, work on work on your foundational skills, right? You should always you should have a strong foundation before you try to do anything else, right? And and maybe, you know Maybe some fire departments don't actually they don't define what that foundational skills are. So as a fire department, if you don't have those, like I mentioned, right? What are the the core task level skills that I I need you as a firefighter to just be really great at? Right. And I know we didn't have it, like it wasn't earmarked, right? There was no like these are the things that you gotta be good at. We're gonna measure these are the measurables and we're gonna make sure you're you're great at it. And you know, maybe if your department doesn't have that, maybe seek it out, figure it out for yourself. You know, what are your what are your core, you know, your core skills that you just know you have to be great at and perfect it, right? And keep it simple, stupid, right? And I think that's it it's it goes back to anything, right? Like you can't get away from the basics. No, a hundred percent agree. A hundred percent agree. Go ahead there, Roe. Yeah, I think we The common theme of everything we talked about from equipment to studies to data to was find what works for you. Don't just take everybody else's, find what works for you. And I think that comes down to everything we do is is make it local to you and find what works best for you and your fire department. I like that. Yeah. and you know, when it comes to that engine company side, we don't need to muddy the waters. We're already we're already working from a position you know, operating in that gray those first few minutes, when we cross that threshold, what we're gonna counter, we don't always know. We may have s a working knowledge, but we won't know everything. But the one variable that never changes is that that basic skill set always works. The one another variable that never changes that water, fast water is going to be a go to every time. When in doubt if you're flowing water you're gonna probably win And enough water. Enough water. Enough water, we'll win eventually. Eventually we'll put this bastard out. So yeah, the basics, you know, don't listen to, you know, one guy. Go out and do your research, man. Like I think Shane said, and I think Robo said it. It's all out there. And sometimes you do have to, you know, you gotta weed in, you gotta get into the weeds to find the right information. And if you don't find it, you call call somebody. Use use your networking and call and say, hey, how'd you find this? Shit. I never did find it, but I know a guy that finally found it, call this guy. And if that guy don't know, call this guy. And eventually you're gonna get the answers you need. whether it's on pump operations. if if I needed to spec out a whole brand new truck and how to lay it all out, you know, I'd call maybe Destiny Gear. you know, all these things, there's so many avenues now and we're as far apart as Hawaii and Atlanta, Georgia is. We're not that far. Yeah. Well, so I think you hit a you made a good point, is you gotta build your network. Right? If you don't if you don't have a big network, like again on Hawaii, if that's why I started bringing guys in. If all you know is your fishbowl, then then you just you're kind of doomed to failure, right? A hundred percent. I tell guys all the time, get outside your four walls. Get outside your four walls. That's where my education really kind of came from. When I got outside the four walls of my job, I was a little I at first I was like, my God, we're we're we're horrible. You know, we and we weren't, but you know, when you get out and you start talking to guys, you're like, my god, we have no clue what the hell we're doing. I yeah, I I I can remember the moment that I had the like, my that my god moment. I mean, I remember that moment, you know, it was the first I was like, What is he talking about? Like, you know, it's like it's like I I'm a moron. moments like that when somebody's talking to me, I'm like, I have no clue what this guy's talking about. And that's your problem. So Well Shane, appreciate taking time out of your morning. I know it's our afternoon, your morning, so I I appreciate you guys pushing it back to seven AM and not six AM like Rolette wanted in the in the beginning. That wasn't on me. That that's the show director there. Well that's just our usual time, you know, noon for Todd. I just do what I I'm just doing I told I just work for him. So so we appreciate you getting up early and then let you get out and enjoy the rest of your day and hopefully your girls don't have to suffer through that horrible event ever again of not having internet. We just had a hurricane offshore just the other this past weekend and I and I think there's another one brewing. I it's a crazy it's a crazy season. Yeah, you guys have seen more activity than the Florida coastal line has. But again, never waste a good crisis, right? So now I'm like I'm like, hey, hey honey. I think we need a generator. And she's like, Yeah, I think we need a generator. So it's like I might get a I might get a generator out of this. Hopefully she's not listening. Right before this goes live, she'll get on Facebook and what are you talking about, a generator? All right, well, brother, we appreciate your time and hopefully we'll be seeing you soon down the road. If hopefully before F D I C I'm sure we'll see you there, but hopefully we'll see you before that. Yeah, yeah. I might try I might very loosely I might Try to get to Pensacola. We'll see. All right. Well, if you if you come, let me know. Let me know before you come and I probably give you a little bit of a hookup there. Well, if I do come, it'll be with work, so we should be good. even better. Well, if you just if work doesn't help you out, I'll I I I'll find you a place to sleep if you need that. Sounds great. All right, brother. I appreciate you. Appreciate your time, Shane. All right, brothers. All right, take care.