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Transform Your Life with the Enneagram (with Teresa McCloy) · The Daily Writer

0:01
SPEAKER_02: How well do you truly know yourself?
0:04
SPEAKER_02: If you and I were really honest with ourselves, we would have to admit that probably we don't know ourselves as well as we think we do.
0:10
SPEAKER_02: Self-knowledge is critical if we're going to do the work that we're called to do.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: On today's episode, our guest walks us through the Enneagram, which is a fantastic tool to help us know ourselves, impact the world, and do better creative work.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: So stay tuned, it's going to be a really fun episode.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: Hey friends, welcome to the Born to Create podcast.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: My name is Kent Sanders, and I'm an author, professor, and creative coach.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: This is the show where we explore the mindset, habits, and principles to help you make a bigger impact in your life and creative work.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: Well, today on the show, I'm really excited to share a conversation that I had with my friend Teresa McCloy, who is a coach, a consultant, and professional speaker.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: Teresa uses her real life process and tools such as the Enneagram Typology Profile to help her clients move from living with their hair on fire, as she explains it, to discovering clarity about the life they want to live and the process to make it happen.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Teresa lives with her husband Dale on their third generation family grain farm in South Central Illinois.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: On this episode, you'll learn all about the amazing Enneagram assessment, how it can help you become more self-aware and creative, and specifically how artists and creatives can make use of the Enneagram.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: You're also going to learn how the Enneagram can help you develop more empathy and improve your relationships.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't matter what Enneagram type you are, that can definitely benefit you.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: I know her conversation really benefited me in that regard.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: And Teresa also talks a little bit about her journey as an entrepreneur and how she structures her business.
1:46
SPEAKER_02: So we're covering lots of ground in this episode, and I really think you're going to enjoy this conversation.
1:51
SPEAKER_02: Whether you've heard of the Enneagram and know a lot about it, or whether you've never heard of it, this is really going to help you, I think.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: If you want to take a deeper dive after the episode is over, be sure to check out our show notes at KentSanders.net slash Enneagram.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: And the way you spell that is E-N-N-E-A-G-R-A-M.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: That's KentSanders.net slash Enneagram.
2:13
SPEAKER_02: Before we get into the interview, I want to let you know that Teresa has made a special download available for Born to Create podcast listeners.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: It is called the Real Life Typing Guide.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: This is a really cool guide that she's put together.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: And you can find the download link for that in the show notes.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: Or you can go to KentSanders.net slash Enneagram.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: So let's get on to the interview.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: All right, I am here with Teresa McCloy at my dad's house in Vandale, Illinois.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: This is the first time I've recorded here.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm actually from St.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: Louis.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: She's from Illinois, so we kind of met halfway, so to speak.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: So Teresa, welcome to the podcast.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: It is great to be here with you, even at your dad's house.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: How fun to see you.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: I know.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't plan on recording probably every show here at my dad's house, but it works for this time.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate you making time out of your day to be here.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: No, it's fun.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: It's good to get away, and I'm looking forward to the conversation.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: So we're here to talk about the Enneagram and some other things as well, including your real life process.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: But let's dive into the Enneagram first.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm very familiar with it.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: Some of the listeners who are joining in with us right now are familiar with it, but there are some who are not.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: Can you give us a quick rundown about what the Enneagram is and why it's valuable?
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Sure, I would love to.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Love to talk about the Enneagram.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: So it's not a hard thing for me, but the Enneagram is a psychological and I believe spiritual tool that can help us see one of these nine personalities.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: So the way that we see the world and where we gravitate towards some of the behaviors that we might have, it can go into our egosystem.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: It's a really deep tool that's fun to explore.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: So how is it different than say something like the Myers Briggs disc or other type of personality assessment?
3:57
SPEAKER_00: For me, the Enneagram invites you to transformation.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: It invites you to continue to explore.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: The disc and the Myers Briggs are great tools, and we use those a lot in the business world.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: The Enneagram is becoming more popular in the business community.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: But uh the Disc and Myers Briggs are very straightforward.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: So you know that you're one of these types.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: It really doesn't give you, though, the invitation for change or transformation or how do I work with all parts of myself?
4:26
SPEAKER_00: So the Enneagram gives you this head, heart, body kind of experience.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: So your whole self.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: The disc and the Myers Briggs are more geared in just how we think and not as much into the other two, the EQ and what I call the body experience.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: So you would say the something like the disc or Myers Briggs, something that's more of a psychological type of a tool.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: Would you say that's a more descriptive?
4:51
SPEAKER_02: In other words, it's telling us, okay, this is what you are.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't really, you know, as you said, and I love that phrase, invite you to change, but would you say that's more something that the Enneagram emphasizes is here's what you are now.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: Let's invite you to transform, to change, to grow, to develop, that kind of thing.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I believe that it can be used to that depth.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: Now, if you want to, you can just find out your type and have great conversations with your friends and and call them out on, you know, their stuff and they can call you out on yours.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: But I believe that really, especially from a spiritual perspective, it invites us to look at some of those deeper patterns of behavior, I call them coping behaviors that we might have, and really invites us to that um knowing of ourself at a deeper level.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: So you've worked with a lot of different people over the years with specifically with the Enneagram tool.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: What about artist creative types?
5:48
SPEAKER_02: Have you noticed anything specific about how people who are in more creative fields or who approach life as an artist, how do they interface with the Enneagram?
5:57
SPEAKER_02: Is it particularly helpful for them or is it not particularly helpful?
6:00
SPEAKER_02: Or what's your thoughts on that?
6:02
SPEAKER_00: I love that question because so many times if people know the Enneagram a little bit, um they want to put uh this one particular type, which is called type four.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: And type four is many times called the creative type.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: And so people are like, oh, you must be a four.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: You're a musician, you're a writer, you're, you know, you create content, whatever it is, you must be a four.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: And that's really not true.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: A creative can be in any of the type spaces.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh so there are nine different types.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay, they all bring something different to the world.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: And as I said, many times we want to say, oh, because that word is attached to a type four, and you are an artist or a creative, you must be that.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they can be in any any type whatsoever.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just where their motivation comes from.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: And so creativity.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm a type three, but I love music, I write music, you know, I used to work in the music uh ministry area, and uh so we have that in common.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: And yet I have a very strong four wing.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: But explain what wing is.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: So if you picture a circle, the Enneagram has these nine numbers, numbers one through nine, all the way around a circle.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: And so as a type three, the two is on one side of me on my right hand side, and the four is on my left going around the circle.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: And so many times you'll have a strong tendency, you have your home type, I call it home base.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: Whatever you type, and you can take an assessment to discover that type.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: You can do it through what we call narrative tradition, where you read paragraphs and go, yeah, that sounds like me.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: And you kind of live with your Enneagram to really discover it.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: And so I know that I'm a type three because um effective and efficient is a type three, and I'm a very organized, to the tea workaholic person.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of my edge.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: And so then I can do that through um being very effective and efficient and living in the wholeest part of myself, or I can go to the edge of myself and live in kind of deceit and making the appearance that I've got it all together when I really don't have it all together, and so fear of failure.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: And so then I have this wing of a four, so I move down, that's kind of one of my higher numbers on each side of me.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: So that draws from that creative space that we were just talking about.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that's interesting to take a little deep dive for a second is threes don't really love, even though they're in these heart centers, the two, three, and four types of the Enneagram, threes don't love to do emotion.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: So one of the one time when I was having a great conversation with a spiritual director, friend of mine, she said, where you do your emotion, Teresa, is in the music.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: The music that you write and the music that you create is where you process your emotion.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: You don't always, because you don't have time for it as a three.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: It's not effective and efficient to use your emotion.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: And so I pull from that four-wing and use music as my way, you know, whether it's in worship, whether it's in performance or whatever, to express my emotion.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that writers in particular, and I guess I'm talking about specifically fiction writers or stores or storytellers of any type.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: Do you think there's an element where sometimes it's it's really hard to live with that emotion in everyday life?
9:30
SPEAKER_02: So we create stories or we create music or we create art almost as a proxy for our emotional life.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: You know, we can't go out and you know, if like if you if you like crime novels or something like that, you can't go out and kill somebody, or at least you shouldn't.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess you can, but you shouldn't.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: But you can write a story about that where you're sort of living vicariously through that.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that the beautiful space of creativity?
9:55
SPEAKER_00: And so through the lens of the Enneagram, we each bring, so a type one brings goodness, a type two brings love, a type three brings effective and efficient, a type four brings this creativity, type five brings wisdom, type six brings loyalty and faithfulness, a seven brings joy, an eight brings power, and a nine brings peace.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: We got this down.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Aren't those gorgeous words though?
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that exciting to think that we all bring a part of that?
10:25
SPEAKER_00: And we've been created by our creator to bring a part of that.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: So, what would life be like without creatives, without that?
10:33
SPEAKER_00: And not that everybody's a type four is a creative, right?
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Or vice versa.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: But it is a space that I mean, it gives me goosebumps literally when I think about that God was creative, right?
10:45
SPEAKER_00: And so he created people to bring that part for us.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: First verb of the Bible.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I get to do a little bit of that by having that wing, but we all are connected to um this head, heart, and gut parts of ourselves, or head, heart, and body part of ourselves.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: And God created us that way.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: And so the Enneagram really gives us a map and a visual tool because who doesn't want to have goodness and love and peace and joy and wisdom and creativity and effect, you know, God was effective.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: So I gotta kind I get to kind of represent that in the world.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's exciting to think I get to bring that.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: It's not all I get to bring, but it's my gift, it's my skill.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: And so the Enneagram can overlap with some of the things that we know in that space of giftedness and all of that.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: It just offers a depth, going back to kind of your original question of disc and Myers Briggs, it offers a different depth to me.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: You can explore as deeply or as on the surface as you want to with the Enneagram.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: So there's really a responsibility that we have as creatives.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: And when I say creatives, I don't mean just painters or musicians.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: It's, you know, I believe we're all created.
11:56
SPEAKER_02: We all created.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: We are all creative.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: I can't get my words out correctly.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: But we have a responsibility to know who we are and how we're wired.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: And so many people go through life, they don't even know why they deal with emotions the way they do, or why they're wired the way they do, or why they have conflict with their spouse or their kids or other people the way they do.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, that's to me the beautiful thing about these kinds of tools is you can know yourself and why you are the way you are, which is so helpful.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, and we're beginning, you know, in today's information, you know, we have this information overload.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: We're beginning to know through brain science, even we're hearing a lot about emotional intelligence, right?
12:35
SPEAKER_00: And so the Enneagram supports that.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, there are three of the types, the two, three, and the fours, that are very connected to the EQ space.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: The five, the sixes, and the sevens are connected to the IQ.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: They do everything through their mind, through thinking.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: That's their first way they process.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: And the seven, eights, and nines are connected to what we can call what my Enneagram teacher that I've been certified with calls the GQ, the gut instinct, how we act and react.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: So when we can kind of put ourselves back together in wholeness and draw from all three of those spaces, we all have the way we think, the way we feel, and the way we act and react.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: And when we're living in that flow of those three things, we call it the harmony triad in some Enneagram language.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: It's just a beautiful thing that I can say, wow, where did I overreact today?
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that conversation I had with my child, with my spouse, with an employee.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, that wasn't good.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, I maybe should have thought through some things first, or I should have thought about how they were feeling, or how was I really feeling.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: So we can really use it, I call it in your everyday, ordinary life.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's funny you you bring this up because this reminds me of kind of an ongoing, not a conversation.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: It's not really even a conflict, it's just an ongoing thing uh with my wife and I.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: So I'm a five.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: I'm a I don't know if I would say I'm a very heavy five, probably whatever you are, you're a heavy that.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: But I'm very much a five on the Enneagram, which does mean I process things intellectually.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: And there will be times where she will, you know, will ask, Well, how do you feel about this, or what are you feeling, or whatever?
14:11
SPEAKER_02: And I don't even know how to answer it because I just think, well, I'm not feeling anything.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: I just I'm thinking about it.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it'll be even be like, she'll say, You're giving me that look again, that blank stare, which to her means, you know, she processes that as something is wrong, but I'm just like, I'm just thinking it through.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't, I'm thinking through my response to whatever, whatever the thing is.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: So it is so helpful to know that because especially like in a marriage relationship, man, if you're married to somebody who's very different than you are, that is really important to know.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay, their response is is not necessarily bad, it's just how they're responding to it.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm not laughing because that's funny.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: It's okay if you are that you have conflict.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm laughing because it's so typical of conversations that I hear from so many couples.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the reasons I love the Enneagram, whether it's in a workspace with someone you work with or in that marriage relationship, or so helpful for me with my teenage and adult children as they got old enough to kind of process the Enneagram and begin to work with it in me to understand because a type five, uh, if you'll allow me to share, doesn't feel their emotion in the moment.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: That is so true.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: They actually process it later.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: So you might go to an event with a bunch of people and you're intellectually taking in all the information, but you're not really processing how you feel about any of those conversations.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: I love being a wallflower.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: Like a social, like seriously.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: My daughter's a five, so I get this really well.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: So later, though, the next day, you might come back and share with your wife or someone else.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, I was thinking, and that's the key word, about that conversation that we had, and here's my response to it.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Because a type five is in that headspace, and they are the strongest of that headspace, and so they really at their edge can hoard information.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: So the invitation for a five is always to share what they know with the world, to bring it to the world and give it back to the world instead of just going, well, I probably need more information.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: And I know you you understand that as a type five.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: Um and so, yeah, that you don't do your emotions, so to speak, right there in the moment.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Whereas the heart spaces are more apt to do their emotions right there or lead from I feel.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: I always tell people, listen, just listen to language.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: People will say, I think, I feel, or I know.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: Wow, I never thought about that before.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: And they start sentences with that.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: You've like given me I've gone 22 years.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: I've gone 22 years in my marriage without this insight.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: So So it is just an interesting.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: My husband is a type 9 and I'm a type three.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: So he's uh he brings peace to every situation, doesn't want to do the conflict, whereas conflict can move things forward.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: And so his invitation is always to show up and you know to just bring himself up.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: But a type nine comes from that body space, and they can go to anger, is the root of the body space.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: And so a nine feels that fear of if I show up and you really feel my emotion, it could go out of control and that would make us not have a peaceful situation.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: Almost like unleashing the beast within.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Rage could come in that, whereas a type eight is also in the body space, but they have their emotion right out, their anger is right there.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: They're short, they're quick, they walk into the room, who's got the power?
17:37
SPEAKER_00: I want it, because they're power.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: But I love those words, even because um, from my faith-based perspective, God is all of those things.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: He's power, he is love, he is joy, he's peace.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: And we get to bring some of that kind of, you know, in his image to the world.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: How did you first get interested in the Enneagram?
17:59
SPEAKER_02: Because I know this is a kind of a long journey in your life, you know, over over time, but how did you first get interested in this?
18:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, at the time I was serving in ministry and I really felt like I'd hit a wall in my creativity, in where I was, and I I knew I felt like I was giving a lot of information, but I wasn't doing a lot of transformation personally.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: And so uh I began to explore and I actually was introduced to the Enneagram through a man named Rory Noland.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Who is a beautiful soul.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh he began me on a journey with a community in Chicago that was a spiritual formation community that uh with Ruth Haley Barton.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: And so at one of the retreats that we did over a two-year period, they used the tool of the Enneagram as a process to do the practice kind of of daily review or examine.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: And it just really changed for me because I began to see that I wasn't as messed up as I thought I was.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: I felt really guilty and very much a failure because I had had a lot of occupations.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: I was a workaholic.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: I was so driven and found my identity in my work and the false belief of the of the three of the heart spaces that you're not enough.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: And so that, you know, if I work harder, I'll surely be enough that will give me recognition.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: And so that was really bumping for me.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: So that began my journey of just really doing my own work and learning about myself.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: And we had some crisis going on in our family at the time as well.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: My son was suffering from addiction and uh passed away, unfortunately, about a year and a half ago from an overdose.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: And so God's invitation to me at that time was to do the work so I would be prepared to handle that space in my life and what we were walking through.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: And so it was, it's been about a six or seven year journey.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: And now I just see how valuable it can be in people discovering their real self and knowing their self well so that they can do the work that they're called to do and live their life day in and day out, being able to use something like the Enneagram and some other things that you know I use with entrepreneurs and things to do their best work.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: And so it's been a journey that's been a difficult one and a hard one and a difficult um space to live in, but yet I'm very grateful for it.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: So before I I we get on to uh your specific process that you have in your business, I want to touch on something that you mentioned a second ago that I thought was really insightful.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: You said, okay, so you're a type type three, and you mentioned the need for recognition.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: Is that would you say is that the primary emotional need of a type three?
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Is to be recognized and valued for your work, it is it's that value for work.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: So within even that heart space, the two, three, and four, um, that you know, I need to love more is the two, you know.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: I need to be more understood is the four.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, because fours feel the highest of highs and the lowest of lows, and they can be right there with you, but they want to be unique.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: There comes the creativity, right?
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Like, so I want to be able, that's why it makes them great songwriters and artists and all of those things, um, because they connect to that deepness that's sometimes we can't express for ourselves.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a love language in a sense.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so, and so for a type three, it's you know, I need to be recognized for my work.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: And so the invitation to me has been, you know, to be know that I'm loved no matter what I produce.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: So let's say I'm I'm relating with you either as a family member, uh, employer, uh, some type of business relationship or social relationship.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: Is there a value to knowing what type someone is and then knowing what they really, really want?
21:58
SPEAKER_02: For example, a type 5.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Five, I'm a type five.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: What I want probably emotionally is to be thought of as a wise, knowledgeable person.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: That's what really sort of I don't know what the phrase is.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say flips my lid, that's a Midwestern thing, I guess.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:14
SPEAKER_02: But like those those words of affirmation, that's what really makes me feel good.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: So there's value in knowing this and basically touching the heart of the other person and knowing what really can help them to feel loved and affirmed and valued.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it really does, can't, because like yesterday I was working with a team and they've all done the Enneagram, and so now they all kind of know each other's type, and that knowledge brings them the ability to go that the person that's going, do you have everything you need?
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Are you okay?
22:46
SPEAKER_00: They're a type two.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: They're not, they're just loving you.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: That's just their natural tendency.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: And a type five is gonna show up with a meeting with information and research.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: They're gonna launch into their agenda.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're gonna go, okay, you know, and a type six wants to see the whole team get along and be loyal and faithful to another.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: And a type three is going, how can we get this meeting started and get it finished in an effective way?
23:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, and so everybody's seeing it through their lens.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: And when you can do that, what I think the beauty is it invites us to grace with one another.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's so important.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: And love and love with one another, but it invites us to hold them and go, I don't need to try to fix you.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one of the beautiful things is I stop trying to fix everybody to be able to do that.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Man, that is such a key insight.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Because we all want to fix everybody.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Because we know how to deal with each other if we're alike, and I understand how you're thinking or feeling or acting.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: But I can understand how you're thinking or feeling or acting by getting to know the tool of the Enneagram and other things that are helpful, but that gives me so much insight into a two.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: Ah, you're just loving me.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And and I can accept that love differently.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Now you're not trying to control me or be codependent, although a two can go to their edge, they become codependent.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: I love you as for what I'll get back out of you.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Instead of just loving you for who you are.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: So really it's a tool for developing obviously not just understanding yourself, but for developing empathy for others, which is to me, that's like a huge missing element in our culture today.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that amazing?
24:20
SPEAKER_02: It's not not even just the the ability to understand other people, but the willingness.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes the willingness is not even there to see things from somebody else's point of view and to understand they might be hurting in a certain way, or just to to care about people on even a basic level sometimes is missing.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, and it'll it allows us to be with someone who's not just like us and like them for who they are and where they are on the journey.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Because everybody's not in the same place.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: And so, but the more so team development, relationally relating, it helped me, and I always have permission to talk about my daughter.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it's okay, right?
24:58
SPEAKER_00: She's a type five like you.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: And I used to think she was depressed when she'd come home from high school, and she'd be like, I'm done.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: She was fives need to withdraw more than any other type.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for pointing that out to the rest of the world.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: Looking for the exit.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: You can only do so much connection with other people.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: So to go to high school all day, be present, be with others, be with all that's going on.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: It's exhausting.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: A lot of information to process, right?
25:26
SPEAKER_00: So she would need to come home and process it.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: And then three hours, it didn't do me any good to say, how was school today?
25:32
SPEAKER_00: What's the matter?
25:33
SPEAKER_00: What's wrong?
25:34
SPEAKER_00: What's wrong?
25:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, it would be if I would to let her have space to process it, eventually she's gonna come.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: And I believe in a harmony triad model of the um Enneagram.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: So she's gonna move to her two, which is her heart space.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: So eight, five, two, connect.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: And she's gonna move to her two and she's gonna come and have that conversation with me.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: When she's ready.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: When she's ready on her time, and not that she has to learn and develop as a you know, now 22-year-old, that maybe I need to do that a little more.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: I can't just stay stuck in my type as a five and go, well, this is who I am.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: So that's the other thing about the Enneagram.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: You can't use it against each other.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, this is who I am.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: That is such a great point.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: So just accept me the way I am, because that's living on your edge.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: So the invitation is to move to your heart, to move to your body, and to know that you have access to those two other places.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Because a five could, we're talking about your type because it's easy with you here, but you could get stuck in that five and just gather information.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: But you also have the eight space that's in your body that can help you go now.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: In this position, I need to pull on the power that I have.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: I need to be the leader in the room.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to shrink back and be the wallflower, you know.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: Gosh, it's like you're like reading my soul.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Scary, isn't it?
26:54
SPEAKER_00: It's a little scary.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I need to move towards my wife in love, and I need to move to my two.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: And if you think of that triangle, that harmony triad flowing, when it's in flow, as my Enneagram teacher says, when it's in flow, it's a beautiful thing.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: So the 852 connect, the 369 connect, and the 741 Connect.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is cool.
27:19
SPEAKER_02: So let's talk a little bit about your specific process.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: You call it the real life process.
27:24
SPEAKER_02: Talk about that, what it is, how you developed it, and how it can benefit people.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: So the real life process, I started uh working as a coach about three years ago after I left ministry and moved into coaching and consulting and that work.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: And one of my strengths as a three is helping people to manage their time and their productivity, because that's what a three knows how to do.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to help people do it as their best self.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: So I do use the tool of the Enneagram in my process.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: So if you picture a triangle, real self is at the bottom, your real life is in the middle, and your work is at the top.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: And if we know ourselves well, if we have this, whether it's disc, Myers, Briggs, Enneagram, whatever, I love the Enneagram because of the depth.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: But if we can know ourselves well and know our patterns of behavior, then we can really live in our best life in relationships with people and all of that and do the best work.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Many times we we're identified by our work.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: We walk up to somebody, we introduce, don't we?
28:25
SPEAKER_00: In our culture and what do you do?
28:27
SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
28:27
SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
28:28
SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
28:28
SPEAKER_00: And that feels so false because wow, I'm only known by or liked by what I do.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: And I struggled with that.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: So it really relates a lot to my story.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the real life part comes from my story as well.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: As I was coaching, we were walking in this difficult space with our son, and people would say, How do you do this in your real life?
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know how we compartmentalize things.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: So crisis is over here and work is over here.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: And so, but we all have real life going on all the time.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things I found as entrepreneurs, especially, so I say I I specifically work with entrepreneurs, creators, and leaders.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Because they are kind of managing this space of time.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: And it's so different.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: You might be picking up your child from something one minute and then coming back to work the next.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: And we just have this freedom that can come sometimes be our best friend or our worst enemy, right?
29:25
SPEAKER_00: Because how do we get to our work?
29:27
SPEAKER_00: So I work in 90-day processes.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: I pe teach people to know themselves well and then move into what are the projects you can work on in this 90 days?
29:35
SPEAKER_00: How do you actually time block that out?
29:37
SPEAKER_00: But then I take it to more of a spiritual place too, because I didn't feel like there was anything out there that was about time management and productivity that also included rest.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: That's true and renew and review.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a different step that I include because entrepreneurs don't know how to take a day off.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: And they don't know what renews their spirit and what renews themselves and talk about creativity.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: We're our most creative after we've had a really good time of renewal with a hobby, a recreation, a vacation, a day off, um, a Sabbath, whatever it is.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: Creativity seems to come from a different place.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: I always say my best ideas come on the lawnmower, you know.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, you're in the shower, you're doing something that doesn't feel productive.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or something that's like a repetitive task, and it's kind of freeing your mind to come up with ideas you wouldn't otherwise.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: And so part of my process is helping people to learn um how to how to step away sometimes from their business about every 90 days, take a day of retreat.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh, one of the best things I learned when I was in that spiritual formation community was to take a 24-hour kind of step away.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: You can do it in your own home, but step out of the norm and step back and and do some, I call it reset of your life.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And in instead of waiting a whole entire year, you know, do that three or four times a year, seasonally, kind of even rhythmically, as we're created.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: So a rhythm of life.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that's kind of what the real life process and what I've done.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: And so I work with people, I have some online courses, I do some one-to-one coaching, Enneagram workshops.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a combination of all of those things, is how I work with people.
31:24
SPEAKER_02: So, from an entrepreneurial perspective, you have multiple streams of income, which you would recommend, um, I assume, since that's kind of what you do.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: I hear that term a lot of multiple streams of income for people who are trying to design and create their own business.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: Would you recommend that as an kind of an ultimate strategy that's good to pursue?
31:43
SPEAKER_00: I do, and especially in the beginning.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: So my business per se, even as the real life process brand, is only a couple of years old.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: That's a really short time in business.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: So um they say most businesses fail before the fifth year, um, and a lot before the third year.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Kind of scary when I'm in year two.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: Um we'll pray for you.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: But yes, thank you.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: But um, so I do think in the beginning, multiple streams of income does help you narrow down to your sweet spot.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: You may not have that forever, but in especially if you're working in the online space and you're working, I mean, I have clients from all of the United States, sometimes around the world.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: And so you're you're open to so much more than we used to be.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's ways that you can create online courses.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: If you're doing something that's very repetitive, why not have it in something very accessible for people?
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh, some people would rather have you one-to-one or for an all-day, or you know, depending on if you're consulting or coaching.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: And it also depends on what kind of content you're creating as to whether that multiple streams of income.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: You might be speaking and then selling your book, or yeah, you know, it's it just depends.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: There's lots of options.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: In today's world, too, you can work as a contractor and you could have multiple clients.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: And so um, that feels like multiple streams of income, right?
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Because you might be doing different things for different clients.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: So it's such a wide open space anymore.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: That's one of the things I love about it.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: See, that's interesting you say that because as a five, you know, is that to me is very perplexing because there's so many options for things.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you just want, as at least maybe I'm not speaking for everybody, I'm just speaking for myself.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: But sometimes you just want somebody to say, just do this one specific thing, ignore everything else, all the other options.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: And the options are almost paralyzing to somebody who's a very analytical, systematic, process-driven person.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell And that is such a great observation because and it really helps the audience understand the differences of the Enneagram types.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: So a three thrives on all of the options.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: See, there needs to be some kind of a tool for maybe this is a business thing somebody could develop is how the Enneagram applies to entrepreneurs specifically and how how they process change and opportunity and risk and all those things.
34:06
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if something like that is out there.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot in my process, is we really so I also have a paid community where uh once people have been in the online course or worked with me one-on-one or taken an assessment of the Enneagram, they can come into this community, and that's the ongoing discussions that we're all having is um because it helps so much to process out loud.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: The Enneagram is a very, in fact, it was how it was originally taught in narrative tradition.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: So you saying what you've said on the podcast today, really there's gonna be another five or even another head type, five, six, or seven that goes, that's me.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's gonna be a type three that going, man, she's just like me.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: And so we recognize ourselves and we say, that's why I'm driven in business.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: And some types, the three, the eight, and the one are more what we call forward-moving numbers.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: So they move toward, and some types move away.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: So the five, the four, and the nine are more away types.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: And the six, the two, I gotta get these right.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, I may have said that wrong, but they're more toward types.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: So they like that relational speed piece.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: And others would be like, I don't know if I need people or not all the time, you know.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: And so, even knowing that from a business perspective, I always tell teams when you're hiring, Enneagram's a great tool to use as an assessment tool or whatever.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh, let's have some conversations with the people you're thinking about.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: Because if everybody you hire is just like you.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: That's not good.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if everybody on your team is a nine, you're never gonna move forward because nobody will want to do the conflict in conversations, right?
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: So, or if everybody's a two, we're just gonna love people, but we're never gonna make any money because we're gonna be giving everything away.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: So um it's just interesting, just all those conversations and how we see that reflection.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: To me, one of the values of all this is is knowing, okay, this is how I am, but I don't have to be this way.
36:07
SPEAKER_02: That sometimes you've got to set your emotion aside and realize, okay, this is what I feel.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: I may feel afraid or I may feel uh insecure or uncertain, but that doesn't necessarily reflect reality or my level of talent.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: I can still move ahead even though I feel afraid or scared or uncomfortable, which isn't that kind of the definition of growth is you're uncomfortable.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, and like if you're really, if you're totally comfortable in your whole life, you're not growing at all.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, going back to that harmony triad kind of language you talked about with the two, five, eight.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: So, say you're a type two and that's your home base, the invitation could be, or the growth could be to, okay, before I go over love on this person, maybe I need to move to my five and I need to analyze a little bit what the result of that, or gather a little bit of information in whatever way I need to, have my story straight, my facts straight, whatever it is, and move to my five a little bit.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's the invitation to growth is to move into one of your other centers of intelligence and process it.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: And that's the invitation to the daily review, too.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: So I encourage people in my process to do a weekly review, not just about their time and what they're gonna do next week and whatever, but also looking a little bit inward of like, okay, so what conversations were great this week?
37:29
SPEAKER_00: What relationships went really well?
37:31
SPEAKER_00: So that's another different part of my process, is part of my time blocking, which I teach, is people are important and relationships matter.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: And so are you blocking out even to fives for the relationships, even for a five, because they could do their whole week and never have a great conversation with their spouse or their children or business partner or whatever, because it just doesn't even come to mind for them.
37:58
SPEAKER_02: It never occurs to a five sometimes.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's people out there.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't notice.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: So if you look and review at the beginning of your week and go, wow, I need to have a date night.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: I need to be purposeful to put it on my calendar.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: I need to have a time once a month where maybe I'm taking one of my children out for a special event that's just for them.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: Yet I could not put people on my calendar because I'm too busy of the multiple things that I can manage and do at the same time.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: And my workaholic tendency and my need for approval, I could forget.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: And that's what happened in my life.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: So in my process, I wanted to make sure that I was teaching people through their type for different reasons, but each type might ignore relational things in their life.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: But if you'll and even in business, so you know, I teach people look at the key people that you need to be having conversation with in the next 90 days to move your business forward.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: You might need a coach, you might need a consultant, you might need to let go of some relationships.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: So that's another thing we talk about with people in relationships, and that's hard depending on your type.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: It isn't for a five, but for a three, it is, or for a two, it's extremely difficult, or for a six who's loyal, and to say that you know what, I need to fire my coach or I need to break off this work relation.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: That's really difficult for a six.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: I'll just do it in a passive aggressive way.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: Because I hate conflicts, but I'll I'll find a way to do what I need to do.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: Just in a devious way.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: It is a beautiful tool to just it you kind of become addicted to it in a way and it just comes to mind.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: But that's why I call it a tool.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: It's something you can use all the time in your processing your life kind of through that lens, along, you know, with scripture, along with your faith, along with other things that you have going on.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: It's not a replacement of anything, it's a tool.
39:58
SPEAKER_02: So as we start to wind this down a bit, let me uh ask you a couple of other quick questions before we sort of wrap up.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: You're launching a podcast very soon.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: And that will release in January.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: You said we're recording this in December.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: So this will come out probably after just after your podcast releases.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: Can you talk about your show a little bit and what people can expect?
40:16
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: It's called the Enneagram in Your Real Life.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: And uh it's out there.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: You can go subscribe to it and uh so that you know when it's update.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: But really, you know, what a beautiful conversation we've had today.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: It's really gonna be this.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be conversation about how does the Enneagram apply to your real life, not just this, oh, I took that, I know my type, it's great, you know, party conversation.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: How does it apply?
40:43
SPEAKER_00: Where do we take it and take it to, you know, whatever?
40:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna do conversation myself.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna do uh guest interviews, um, this is like real life confessions, you know.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm an Oprah confessing my all my sins publicly.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: So we're just gonna have great conversation because that's how we learn more about it.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, there's some great Enneagram podcasts out there, and I hope to be a part of kind of that community.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: Very cool.
41:11
SPEAKER_02: So one thing that I always want to ask people about uh on the show are specific habits, practices, rituals that you have in your daily life that you feel like really help to move your life or your business forward.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: So anything that comes to mind, even a uh some kind type of a weekly ritual that you have, that you feel like this is super critical to my creative growth.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things that I've learned over the past um six years, even in this journey that I've been on, is for me as a type three, um, and I think all types, but a time of solid silence and solitude.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that's kind of spiritual language, but the just that time that you can reflect.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh, for me, it works best in the morning.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and you can do it in so many different ways and all of that.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: But that was something that I learned in the past few years that if I don't do my day is totally different.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, for a young mom, it might be 10 minutes.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: For someone that has a little more time in a different season of life, it might be 30 to 45 minutes.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, another weird thing, and this is kind of personal, but I'll share, is for me, I have to do it in the same space, pretty much in the same way.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: So, one of the best investments my husband and I ever made was a hot tub.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: And so every morning for me, it's that boundary.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: So that's a type three thing of a hot tub space.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: That sounds great.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Where you know, I'm outside, I'm I'm looking and I'm taking in nature, but yet, because we live on a farm in the Midwest, so you know, the cows are in the backyard with me as I'm in the hot tub, but um, it really invites me to a space where I can't do anything.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's not about doing, which is a type three word, it's about resting and sitting.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: And I fight it.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be honest with you.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: I fight that, but I know that that's the invitation that I need to clear my head, to be present to my own self and not be about hitting the ground running with what are the things to do on my task list today.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: For my own practice, I usually do two to three handwritten pages in a journal.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: It's the the morning pages concept from Julia Cameron uh from her book called The Artist's Way.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: Then not every day, but I also do some meditation uh about half the time, probably, you know, ten minutes or so.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: I use an app called Headspace for that.
43:38
SPEAKER_02: But it changes, you know.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: I think as you go through phrases in your life, you you figure out what works for you and what works for somebody else in one space may not work for you in your space.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: So well, and it's one of the things in my process that I encourage people, I call it present blocks to be present.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the things that I encourage people every 90 days and kind of that twenty four hour away time or whatever to Review Is it working for you?
44:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, how's that working for you?
44:02
SPEAKER_00: As Dr.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Phil says, yeah.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: And if it's not, maybe it's time to change it up.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: But don't give up the practice just because the tools that you're using.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: So maybe there's seasons that you want to listen to something audibly.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's seasons where so take that time to just do a little review of how your present time is working and change it up if you need to.
44:25
SPEAKER_02: Well, Teresa's this has been a lot of fun.
44:27
SPEAKER_02: It has been.
44:28
SPEAKER_02: Where can our listeners get in touch with you and your work?
44:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, the easiest way is just to go to my website, teresa mcloy.com.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: So t-E-R-E-S-A-M-C-C-L-O-Y.com.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: You can also find me on Facebook.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: I have a little free tribe there that you can be a part of.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: And uh we do daily posts and engagement with community.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: So that's just called the real life process tribe.
44:51
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
44:51
SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks so much for making time out to do this, especially driving over here.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's been fun.
44:55
SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
44:56
SPEAKER_02: Well, God bless.
44:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, God bless you too.
45:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, friends, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Teresa.
45:04
SPEAKER_02: Here are three key takeaways that I learned from our conversation.
45:07
SPEAKER_02: Number one, knowing yourself is a critical part of fulfilling your creative calling.
45:12
SPEAKER_02: And I think this entails having the self-awareness to know what our strengths are, what our personality type is, what our giftedness is, and other elements of who we are.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: And I think the Enneagram is a really great tool to begin knowing ourselves and how we relate to the world at a deeper level.
45:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm a type five on the Enneagram, and I can say 100% that getting to understand my type on the Enneagram and understanding other types and just understanding the process behind all of that has been super, super helpful to me in my personal and professional life.
45:44
SPEAKER_02: Number two, while knowing yourself is critical, you cannot stay stuck in your type.
45:49
SPEAKER_02: Now Teresa mentioned this.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: She said, hey, don't stay stuck in your Enneagram type.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: And I thought that was a really great insight.
45:55
SPEAKER_02: So as I mentioned, I'm a type five, which means, among other things, that I draw my strength from being by myself.
46:03
SPEAKER_02: When I'm interacting with people for extended periods of time, I'm even when I'm teaching a class or a workshop or when I'm around groups of people for periods of time, that is emotionally draining to me after a while.
46:15
SPEAKER_02: And I have the need to withdraw and get my emotional energy back just from being alone and being able to reflect and think about what I've experienced.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: And there is a tendency for people of my type and probably for other types as well, to want to just constantly withdraw and to make the excuse of, well, people just wear me out, or I get my strength from being by myself, or whatever the excuse might be.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: But the truth is that we can all grow within whatever type we are.
46:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think we can be the best version of ourselves.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: And for me, that involves growing in my love and my empathy and my compassion for people, and not just wanting to avoid people and sort of hide out all the time.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: Not that I want to hide out all the time, but you know, I do have that tendency sometimes because I'm an analytical person, I'm an introvert, I'm a type five, and that's just kind of my normal tendency.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: Whatever our type is and whatever our personality is, we need to become the best version of ourselves and to make sure that we're always growing in grace and the ability to relate to other people in a healthy way.
47:18
SPEAKER_02: Then finally, takeaway number three is that we must learn to appreciate people who are different than us.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: For example, my wife and my son have very similar personality types, but that's a personality type that is very different from my type.
47:32
SPEAKER_02: Chances are that you also live and work with people who are different personality types.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: Maybe you live with somebody in your family, maybe you work with people who are very different than you.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: They look at the world differently, they they have different temperaments, they have different preferences, or you know, they just look at things very, very different.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: It is really easy to see ourselves as the quote unquote ideal personality type and sort of judge everybody else by their relationship to what we are.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: But the truth is that all of us are incomplete.
48:04
SPEAKER_02: None of us is perfect, and it takes all of us working together.
48:07
SPEAKER_02: This sounds a little Oprah and rah-rah, and I get that.
48:10
SPEAKER_02: But I really do believe that.
48:11
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're all part of the body of Christ, we're all part of the human race, and it takes all of us coming together to do the best work possible.
48:19
SPEAKER_02: We need other people to complement our gifts, and vice versa.
48:23
SPEAKER_02: We are we're not self-sufficient.
48:25
SPEAKER_02: We've got to have the input and the personality types and the perspective of other people if we're gonna bring our best creative selves to the work that we do.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: And I think part of that is learning to develop more empathy for people, learning to appreciate them and to be less judgmental and to just appreciate people for who they are.
48:44
SPEAKER_02: So that's a lot of reflections there.
48:46
SPEAKER_02: As you can tell, I really love this topic and feel pretty strongly about it, and am really thankful for the insights that Teresa was able to bring for us on the show today.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: Before we head to the home stretch here, I want to remind you to check out Teresa's podcast, which is called The Enneagram in Your Real Life.
49:03
SPEAKER_02: The link is in the show notes, or you can go to Teresa McCloy.com slash podcasts.
49:09
SPEAKER_02: And you can also find her show on Apple Podcasts as well and other places.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: Well, friends, that wraps up this episode of the podcast.
49:16
SPEAKER_02: You can find the show notes, once again, at KentSanders.net slash Enneagram.
49:22
SPEAKER_02: And if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts.
49:27
SPEAKER_02: It only takes a couple seconds and it helps other people to discover the show.
49:31
SPEAKER_02: You can do that by visiting KentSanders.net slash Apple.
49:35
SPEAKER_02: And finally, if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend or a family member who you think would enjoy it as well.
49:42
SPEAKER_02: You can find lots more resources to help you unlock your creative potential at KentSanders.net.
49:47
SPEAKER_02: Until next time, remember that you were born to create and designed to make a difference.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: Now go create something awesome.