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Kurt Cobain Did Not Kill Himself · UK Column Radio

• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: lose and to pretend. Do you think Kurt was prophetic?
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: I think Kurt was gen x And I think we
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: all had a very dark, bleak sense of what the
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: future was going to hold. We knew at that point
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: we weren't going to have We knew we weren't going
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: to make the same amount of money as our parents did.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: We knew that the nuclear family was not a thing
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: that any of us were probably going to have. And
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I think he was you know, he was just he
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: had a dark sense of humor and and you know,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: he kind of felt the way most of us gen
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: xers did. And now it's all coming true, so here
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: we are. So yes, I guess he's a little prophetic.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: So I'm just I used to be a music journalist
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: for like five minutes, and so I got interested in
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: this case a couple of years ago and started working
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: with I've be came friends with Matt Bell, who is
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: a podcaster, you know, bigger podcaster in America, and we
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: started working on the case together. We have a little
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: team that we work with as well of amazing people,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: my partner Lisa, and so we just have been studying
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: the case, and Matt has been financing certain aspects of
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: the case, and we are just about ready to go
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: in and bring our evidence into the authorities within the
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: next eight weeks here, and we've if we go back
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: to let's go back to April of ninety four, some
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: of you out there probably weren't, you know, just babies
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: or perhaps not even born, but you know, you know,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: it was everybody. Kurt Cobain was this larger than life
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: rock star. The way the media portrayed him, you know,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: they would take twenty pictures at a photoshoot and they
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: would portray him, you know, sad, grumpy. He was kind of,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: you know, this whiny, hated success rock star. You know,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: he was the he would be like Peter Parker, you know,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: the very reticent superhero. So he was didn't want to
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: be doing it. It was a burden, that's what people
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: wanted you to think about Kurt. In actuality, Kurt actually
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: had a really good sense of humor, is very kind
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: and yeah, it was weird for a kid from Aberdeen,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: you know, to become this huge rock star overnight, because
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: you know, you were you were quoting teen spirit and
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: that really broke very quickly. I mean they put in
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: their dues and they to it a lot, but very quickly,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: you know, they signed to Geffen and then it was
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, they're just selling, you know, one
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: hundred thousand copies of their album of never Mind every week.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: So it really hit Kurt very fast. It hit the
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: whole band very fast. And everybody deals with fame a
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: little bit, you know, differently, and he did have some
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: you know, some issues when you grow up kind of
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: as an outsider or punk rocker. I think there's this
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: sense of, now, the jocks are listening to my music.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I mean the guys that were, you know, beating me
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: up in high school or picking on me, and so
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: there was a little bit of that sense, and so
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I see where people kind of got that from that.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe Kurt wasn't enjoying his success, but he did, you know,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: end up enjoying it. And then he he ended up,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: you know, by the age of twenty seven. The media
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: said he took his own life. Now I'm going to
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: go through why, we why and how we know that's
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: not true. But it was a fairly open and shutcase.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: They Kurt was a heroin addict and that was no secret,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: and his wife, Courtney Love, was also an addict, and
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: they had a small child. And Francis me, yes, exactly,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: and she's a beautiful young lady. Now she has her
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: own baby and which is wonderful, and she's married to
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Riley Hawk, Tony Hawk's son, and so I from all accounts,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: I think she's doing really well, which is great because
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: you know, growing up with Courtney Love as a mother
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: cannot have been easy. So basically what we know is
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: in March of nineteen ninety four, Nirvana was touring in
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Europe and Kurt had bronchitis. He wasn't feeling well. He
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: was fighting with his wife a lot. At that time.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: She was cheating on him with Billy Corgan from the
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Smashing Pumpkins, who she used to date, and he wanted
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: a divorce. So we know this. His lawyer has confirmed it,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Courtney has confirmed it. Numerous sources have confirmed this. A
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: few friends have said the same thing. So he wants
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: a divorce. She comes to visit him in Rome in
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: March to bring the baby to see him, and at
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: that time they end up having a really big fight.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: And all we know is that the next morning he
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: is taken by ambulance to the hospital in Italy and
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: he's in a coma. So what we found out is
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: that it was an accidental overdose. He had taken hypnol.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: R Hypnoll was his wife's. It was Courtney's prescription. Now
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: ra hypnall. I don't know you know over there, but
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: most people know it as a date rape drug. It's tasteless.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: You don't know what happened. Usually the next day you
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: can't remember what happened the night before. So Kurt wakes
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: up in the hospital, he's not sure what happened. He
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: still wants to divorce Courtney. He writes a note that
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: says fuck you on the note and he because he
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: can't talk, he his tubes in his throat and he
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: holds this up for Courtney. So he is redosed. He's alive.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: She didn't think he was going to make it. In fact,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: she had called David Geffen and told him that Kurt
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: was dead hours prior. So she says she woke up
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: at two or three in the morning. Kurt was lying
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: on the floor, fully dressed, with one thousand dollars in
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: his hand and a note. The note said that he
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: was leaving her and he was called in a coma.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Now she calls the front desk in the hotel at
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: about six in the morning and says, I need an ambulance.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So there's about three to three and a half hours
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: in between when she finds Kurt and when she calls
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: for an ambulance. Now, if your loved one is lying
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: there comatose on the floor, why would you wait three
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: hours to phone an ambulance or to call the front
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: desk to get medical assistance. So within that time she
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: calls David Geffen and tells him that Kurt is gone.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: So she obviously thought Kurt was dead. We don't know
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: what she was doing. It's my opinion that this was
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: her first attempt to take Kurt's life, and she saw
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: an opportunity. She thought Kurt had died of this overdose,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: and she left him there to make sure he was dead.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: So they rushed him to the hospital and they save
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: his life. He wakes up, like I said, tubes in
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: the throat, you know, says something kind of nasty to her,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: and he's okay. The doctor comes out and says, yes,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: this was an accidental overdose. He's going to be okay.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: There's no, you know, there's no damage. He's fine, and
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: so he ends up the tour is canceled, and he
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: ends up going home about the middle of March. So
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: we have different stories as to what happens over the
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: next few weeks. But what we do know is that
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Kurt is still struggling. He's using, and Courtney is telling him,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: if you don't go to rehab, I'm not going to
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: let you see your daughter anymore. Now we have to
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: remember that Courtney is also a user as well, so
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: it's a little bit hypocritical. They have an intervention for Kurt.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: So at the end of March, they stage an intervention. Now,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: the people who loved Kurt, Chris Nova Selic, there were people,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: The people who genuinely, I think cared about Kurt were
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: not there. They did not think this intervention was a
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: good idea. It was not a good idea. It was
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: basically people from Geffen Management. Courtney was there, Pat Smeer
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: was there, Dylan Carlson was there. Dylan Carlson is one
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: of Kurt's friends who will we'll probably talk a little
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: more about. So they're at this intervention and these people
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: are all users, so they're telling Kurt, you need to quit.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: You're going to die, you need to quit using heroin.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: And he's going, excuse me, like, you're all terrible users,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: you're drunks, you're you know, alcoholics, drug addicts, et cetera.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: So he loses it and kind of tells them all
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: off and says he's not going to rehab. And a
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: few days later he gives up and says he will
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: go to rehab. So I believe he went to rehab
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: because Courtney told him he was going to She was
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: going to take Francis and he was not going to
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: be able to see her anymore. And Francis to court
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: she would have been two. She was just about two
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: years old, so she was just a wee.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Thing, sorry for But photographs of Kurt with her, and yes,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: I mean he looked luck he was madly in love.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, such a cute little such a cute little toddler.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that was I think she was the
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: light of his life. And I know you can't put
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: yourself in the mindset of someone who's going to take
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: their life, but it would be very strange. We have
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: there's mountains of evidence that Courtney abused Kurt physically and mentally,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: So the thought of leaving, you know, you have a child,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: imagining leaving your child with somebody you know to be
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: abusive when you love them so much. So it's not
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: like we're going, oh, he didn't. I mean, we know
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: he didn't commit suicide because of the forensics, but you know,
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: you add on that, well, we know he loved this
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: child and leaving her with someone that he is knows
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: is so abusive. He is literally running away from her.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: You know, this person has physically assaulted him. She has
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: you know, tortured him for two years, and you know,
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: at that point, I just it's very hard for me
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: to believe that he would leave his daughter with this person.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: So he goes to rehab. So he flies to la
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: and the rehab clinic is in Malibu, and he goes
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: and it's it's something he didn't have to do. So
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: he's not there. He's there under his own under his
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: own will. So he's in there, you know, He hands
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: them his wallet, gives them all his stuff, hangs out
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: there for a few days and Pat Smear, who is
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: the other guitar player in Nirvana and a good friend
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: of Courtney's, comes by to visit him and gives him
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: a letter. At this point, he's not speaking with Courtney.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: She's calling Exodus the rehab clinic con instantly and he
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: is not talking to her. So she sent pat in
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: with a letter. We have no idea what was in
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: that letter, but we know that Kurt left. He left
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: everything there. He left his you know, he left his
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: favorite jeans, his sweaters, he left everything, grabbed his wallet
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: at the front desk, and left and flies back to
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Seattle that night. That's April first, So April he gets
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: home in the very early morning of April second. We
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: have a witness who came forward who was there the
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: night that Kurt, Kurt's life was taken, and he told
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: us that basically what happened next is Kurt had plans
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: to go record with Michael Stipe from Arim. By the way,
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: did you know that this is Divorced Dad Music, Nirvana,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Arim Smashing Pumpkins. This is what I'm told from the
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: kids that we're all listening to Divorce Dad music. So
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: we'll just lighten it up for a second with that.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so anyways, we uh, he he goes back
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: to Seattle, He goes back to his house. So Courtney's
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: in LA right now, and she refuses to leave Los Angeles.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: She's got really pressing matters in LA. Her record's coming
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: out in a few weeks, and and you know, she
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: just she wants to be there in La. So was
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: whole exactly right. And her album, which you know, speaking
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: of prophetic, is called the album that gets released about
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: a week after Kurt dies is called Live Through This
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: and yeah, so the album did very very well. Well, yeah,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: her band's very very bad. But you know, the songs
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: that Kurt helped with, I think we're okay. The I
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: actually like Celebrity Skin that Billy Corgan wrote, and I
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: hate Billy Corgan. So I mean, but her specifically terrible singer,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: can't play guitar, just a very very talentless human being.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: But that shows you where there's a will. You know,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: there's a way. They won all kinds of awards that year,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: you know, best New Artist, you know, just every award
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: you can think of. Whole was winning it. So, I mean,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: imagine the sympathy she was getting at that point at
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: the end of ninety four. So Kurt gets home on
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: April second, and they're kind of a cavalcade of people
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: who live at his house at this point. So there
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: is somebody named Michael DeWitt and they called him Kelly,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: short for California. He's a nineteen year old kid who
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: used to date Courtney, and Courtney at this point is
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: thirty years old. She sort of groomed him as Yeah,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: so Calli is their mail nanny, and he used to
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: date Courtney when he was you know, sixteen seventeen, and
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: then he ended up working and living at their house
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: and watching their baby. He was also an addict. But
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: imagine that allowing this child, I mean child, I know
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: he's nineteen at this point, but this young guy in
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: your house that used to date your spouse and watching
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: your child's it's a very bizarre situation. So Callie's there,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: his girlfriend is there, and his girlfriend is Jennifer Adamson.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: She's actually the half was the half sister of McCauley
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: and Kieran Culkin, so she was there. She was Callie's girlfriend.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: And then our witness Joe Burns was there with his
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: girlfriend and her name is Bonnie Dillard. And Joe says
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that Kurt was hanging out. He was trying to keep
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: away from Courtney. He knew that she had people looking
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: for him, and he was kind of trying to just
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: he didn't want to talk to her. He was kind
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: of trying to stay away from her. And there's a
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: greenhouse that is above was above the garage. You know,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: the house is a mansion and there's a greenhouse above
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the garage. So he's kind of hanging out up there.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: And then he'd come into the house and have something
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: to eat and talk to Joe and you know, the guys,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: and then he would kind of go back up. So
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: they're all partying, they're doing nope. Joe is a tattoo
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: artist at the time, so he's tet and CALLI. You know,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: they're all kind of hanging out. Now there is a
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: guy named Dylan Carlson. He plays in a band called
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Earth and he and Kurt were pretty good friends for
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: quite a while. He's also a dope addict. And Dylan
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Carlson comes in with two guys that Joe doesn't recognize,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, the vibe changes from Hey,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: we're all hanging out partying to Kurt, You're going back
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: upstairs to the greenhouse to do more dope. Now, at
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: this point, Kurt has already done some dope and he
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: is not needing to do any more dope, Like he's
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: standing up, but he like he can't really do any
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: more dope, So Kurt doesn't want to go. Kurt is
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: fine where he is. He's sitting in the kitchen. He
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to go back upstairs to do more dope,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: and Dylan's trying to fast talk him to go back
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: up to the greenhouse. So finally a guy who's there
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: with Dylan, who Joe doesn't know, says, fuck it, we're going,
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: and they start pushing Kurt up to the greenhouse. Now
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Joe at this point is there with his girlfriend. He
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: doesn't really know what to do. He's friends with Kurt.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: He knows something weird is going on, but he there's
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: no in no universes. Joe thinking they're going to go
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: up there and shoot him. They don't think he doesn't
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: think that they're going to go kill his friend, right,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: So they take Kurt up to the greenhouse. Joe and
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: his girlfriend Bonnie are still kind of sitting down there.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Calli is now trying to get them to leave. Callie's going, okay,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: look like you got to go. Just not just leave
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: the house, leave Washington State. So he's saying, you know what,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: like there are cops all around here, and Joe thinks
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: he's talking about dope. Joe thinks Cally wants him to
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: leave because they're doing heroin and you know, obviously that's
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: you know, that's kind of a big deal. So he
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: thinks that this is why Kelly's trying to get him
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: to leave. So he and Bonnie go up to the
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: driveway and they're waiting for Callie. Kelly's going to come
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: with them and his girlfriend Jenna, and that's when they
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: hear a gunshot go off and they kind of freak out.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: They get in the car and they take off. So
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: they go to Jennifer's house and then they're just kind
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: of dazed for a few days. They don't know what's
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: going on. And then a few days later they find
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: out that Kurt's dead. But Joe's saying that everyone before this,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: as they're hanging out at Jennifer's house, is going, yeah,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: you know, since Kurt's gone now, and he couldn't understand
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: why everybody was talking about Kurt in the past tense,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: but he got the distinct sense that Calli knew that
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Kurt was dead well before the police found Kurt on
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: the eighth, So we now have gotten the statement was
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: kind of the first thing that we went, Okay, shit,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: we might actually be really close to figuring out what
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: happened to Kurt. So we now have two other witnesses
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: who we are unable to name because they don't want
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: to come forward, but they have corroborated Joe's story. We
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: know that that Joe was there the night Kurt died.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: We know Dylan was there the night that Kurt died,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: and that Dylan we believe that Dylan, due to Joe's statement,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: had a hand in taking Kurt's life.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: I just told him before you got any further, what
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: was the gap in time between him being shot and
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: the police coming?
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, so Kurt we believe. So Joe wasn't sure. They're
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: there partying for a few days, so he doesn't know
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: if this happened from the third to the fourth or
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: the fourth to the fifth, but it doesn't it happened either. Well,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: he said the fourth to the fifth. Now when we're
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: looking at the autopsy, it may have been a day earlier,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: so it could have been either of those days. But
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: the coroner, the medical examiner, says Kurt died on the
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: morning of the fifth, which is exactly what Joe said.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: So so we believe he had gotten home, hung out
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: at home for a few days, and then Dylan came,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: you know, a few days later, and that's that's when
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: this happened. So it would have been about three in
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: the morning.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: And then how long did it take for the police
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: to come.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: The police didn't find him until the eighth, the morning
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: of the eighth, and the reasoning, you know, the reason
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: they even found Kurt was because Courtney called an electrician
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: to go to the greenhouse and install security lights, and
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: she said, don't go to the main house, go to
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: the greenhouse. Now, the greenhouse has windows everywhere, so if
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: there's an electrician up there, they're going to see kurtin there. So,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, we believe Courtney knew Kurt was there. She
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: needed someone to.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: Find him, so that shot him and just didn't say anything.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, they murdered him and left him there. Yeah, absolutely, And.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Of course she was in La with Francis.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she had a very very rock solid alibi and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: made sure that she had a very good alibi.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: So and nobody in the neighborhoodhood the gun.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Shot there is, yeah, and we believe so. Joe said
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: they used to go shoot in the back, like in
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: the forest kind of by Kurt's house, and he said
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: that the shot sounded different than a normal shotgun, and
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: we believe it's because it was up on the hard
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: palette of Kurt's mouth, So it's a shotgun that is
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: pressed up against his mouth instead of being an open
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: fire shotgun.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: So okay, But now that's the interesting part because if
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: he committed suicide with a shotgun, that's very complicated.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so complicated, and you have to so let's
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: talk about the scene now. So we have a scene
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: that is immaculate. Shotgun suicides are very very messy. If
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: you google it and you need to have a strong stomach,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: you are going to see brain matter, blood spatter. It's everywhere.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: People who use a shotgun, it's a mess. You know,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: half of their head is usually torn off. Now, Kurt
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: was using a lower powered shotgun and he also had
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: bird shot in it. But the thing is that bird
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: shots still come out as a single bird shot still
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: comes out as a single cartridge and then flares into
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: the bird shot, so it still went into his into
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: his brain as a single cartridge. There's no blood at
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: the scene, there's no blood spatter on his hand, there
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: is nothing anywhere. It is immaculate like a movie set.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why that is. It's because Kurt
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: was dead before the gun went off. There's no arterial
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: spray because his blood wasn't pumping. So when you shoot
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: a corpse, someone that is dead, it acts. The body
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: acts very differently than it would act if blood was
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: pumping and blood was going through your veins. The heart's
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: pumping blood everywhere. That's where you're getting like huge amounts
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: of spray. Because Kurt was already passed by the time
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: the gun went off, you have a very still dead body,
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: and that's why you're not seeing the kind of carnage.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Now they may have cleaned up a little bit too,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: but that's generally why we're not seeing the kind of
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: carnage that you would expect from a shotgun suicide.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: So we had died, hold on, hold on, hold on,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: So he died and then they shot him.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Now when we go for the autopsy report,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: we know that he died very quickly from a heroin
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: overdose and that there wasn't a lot of time, so
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: rigor mortis sets in in about two hours. So if
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: they would not have been able to open Kurt's jaw
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: and put the gun in his mouth and wrap his
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: hand around the shotgun if he had been in rigor
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: and jaw the jaw is one of the first things
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: that gets rigor. So if they had come and found
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: him three hours later, four hours later, they never would
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: have been able to shoot him because his jaw would
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: have been closed and there's no damage noted in the
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: autopsy report that that would indicate that his jaw was
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: broken or any reason for us to believe that they
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: had to break his jaw to get the gun in there.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: So we know that he died and then within probably
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: ninety minutes shot him. I mean, we believe from Joe's
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: statement that he died or was comatose as he's choking
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: on his own fluids and suffocating from this heroin overdose
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: and then they shoot him with the gun. So it's
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: quite quick. But you know, the thing is that we
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: know so we know from the autopsy. So the autopsy,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: we just got that release last year. So a family
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: member gave it to one of our colleagues and we
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: got the autopsy released and we finally have had it
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: looked over by numerous medical examiners. And what the autopsy
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: shows is a man who died of a heroin overdose.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: So we have I'm not sure how much into the
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: weeds you want me to get into the autopsy, but
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: all means.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: God, okay.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: So the first thing we note on the autopsy is
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: that he has brain necrosis, So he has he has
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: a brain hemorrhage that's from the shotgun. That means his
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: brain was destroyed by the shotgun. But he has necrosis
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: of the brain as well. So what that means is
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: that ox his brain was being deprived of oxygen for
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: minutes before the shotgun went off. And that does not
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: happen from a shotgun. That happens from a heroin overdose.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: So that Kurt Cobaine's death looks like this. He's given
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: a very large dose of heroin, and we know he
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: was given the heroin all at once because of the toxicology,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: which I'll get into in a second. He was given
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: a very large dose of heroin. He starts choking on
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: sanguineous frothy fluid, which is bile and blood. So this
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: is in his airways. He's choking. He doesn't have any
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: motor skills anymore because you lose function of your muscles
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: very quickly. And he is dying, and he is, like
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I said, choking on his own fluids. And his brain
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: is now dying is it's rotting from the inside. Basically,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: he has necrosis of the liver as well, which means
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: that the oxygen was cut off from his liver. So
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: if you look up brain necrosis and liver necrosis, those
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: don't happen from a shotgun. They can only happen from
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: something where you're in a coma where you're dying in
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: a slower process than shotgun death. So we know from
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: his autopsy that he had necrosis of the liver in
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: the brain. Then the other thing that should be in
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: the autopsy but isn't is aspirated blood. So you take
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: your last breath as the shotgun goes off, and you
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: should be breathing in blood spatter from that shotgun, So
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: especially close to the mouth, he would have aspirated blood
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: in his lungs from breathing that last breath in. So
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: we know when he took his last breath, was he
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: was sorry, there was no shotgun wound. He takes his
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: last breath and then he shot. You know how in
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: drowning victims they can tell whether the person died before
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: they enter the water, whether there's water in their lungs. Well,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: we know the shotgun didn't kill him because there's no
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: blood in his lungs, and there would be from the shotgun. Boss,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: So we see now that you know that the autopsy
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: proves that that Kurt died. Rather, it wasn't a great death.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: We know that he would have been struggling and panicking.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Hopefully he was mostly unaware of what was going on
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: because you know, it was such a large dose of
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: morphine heroin. So so we know that he you know,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: he died. He was lying supine when the gun went off,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: so he was lying there dead and then they shot him. Now,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: the interesting thing is that the gun. Nobody ever thought
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: to test the gun for thirty one years. So we
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: ended up our investor that we're working with, he bought
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: one of the guns, and we have another teammate who
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: has Kurt's exact gun and I mean compensator cut exactly
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: to size. It's perfect, and he's a ballistics expert. So
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: the gun does not work the way the Seattle Police
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Department said it worked. This gun needs to be shouldered
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: to expel a shell. So in the death photos or
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: in the death report, we see that the shotgun is
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: lying up on its skinny side, the ejection port is
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: to Kurts right, and there's a shell on Kurt's left. Well,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: that's weird enough, but there would be no shell because
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Kurt was lying supine. There was nothing for the shotgun
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: to press against to eject the shell. There is absolutely
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: no way that if Kurt was holding that gun when
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: it went off, that that shell would be there.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: But also on that the length would have made it
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: extremely difficult.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Very difficult. Yes, we think he might have just been
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: able to reach it, and he would have had to
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: hold it up. It's a six pound shotgun. And remember
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: his muscles are now atrophying because he's dying on heroin overdose,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: and he would have had to hold the gun up
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: about six inches above because that's the direction we know
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: the pellet path from the autopsy, So he would have
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: had to hold the gun up about six inches for
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: it to achieve that pellet path.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: And then the gun was lying on him in a
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: different direction.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So the gun is lying skinny side up because
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: that's the way gravity works, right, So it's lying skinny
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: side up, and it the ejection importance to the right.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: The shell is to the left. It shouldn't be there
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: at all. But even if it was, it should have
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: been on the right, not to the left. So I
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: think the SPD said they thought the gun flipped a
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: one eighty in mid air and landed on the skinny side,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: and that's why.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: The shell So it was like in different direction.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: It's like it's yeah, exactly, so so it's face it's
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: like I said, skinny side up, it's upside down. Yeah.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense hmm yeah, I mean it doesn't
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: make sense in the context of what we're talking about,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: because it's some kind of Harry Potter magic.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: And because the shell they falls on the wrong side,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: which is why they would have to have done some
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: mental gymnastics.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's a physics I mean, it's a physics glitch.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: There is no way that this gun, the six pound
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: gun spun in mid air somehow ejected a shell that
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: never would have ejected. We have tested this gun. Now
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: numerous times we like I said, we have two of
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: the exact same gun that Kurt had, and neither one
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: of them will eject a shell without being shouldered. And
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: this is not a gun that is it's not a
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: you know, it's not a light gun. It's a very long,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: heavy shotgun that is not flipping around and doing gymnastics
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: and you know, shooting shells out as it does it.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: But then, why would they have shot him if he
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: was dead?
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: It's a really good question. So he didn't die in Rome,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: and you know, I think one she wanted to make
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: sure he was dead, and two, Courtney loves to put
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: on a show. She is the drama queen. She loves
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: pr She's made comments like, oh, every rock star overdoses
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: when they use a shotgun. You know they mean it.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: This was her way of showing the world that Kurt
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Cobain was really fucking serious, that Kurt Cobain wanted to
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: end his life, that he was using a shotgun. He
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: wanted there to be no ma stakes, you know, he
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: wanted he wanted this to be final. And the other
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: thing is that she loved taking away Kurt's identity. She
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: wanted people so when Kurt was found, he was very recognizable.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: There was no exit wound, there's you know, one of
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: his eyes was damaged, but you could tell it was Kurt,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: you know, there was there was not a lot of
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: damage to Kurt's face. But Kurt loved to tell people, Oh,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: he blew his fucking head off. Oh his head was gone.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Oh they had the idea by his fingerprints.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, this is the problem because this is Wade gets
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: very murky because you're dealing with drug addicts with guns
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: who are reckless in that sort of true, sort of
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: punk rock style. And it makes it a hard sell
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: because people are going to go, well, they were just
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: druggies and it was an accident.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: But there's a suicide note. That's intention. I mean, Kurt
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: didn't write the note. We do the you know, modern
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: forensics has proven that. I mean even back in the day,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: you know, they did an Unsolved Mysteries, which was such
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: a great show, you know, with Robert Stack. They did
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: an Unsolved Mysteries. They did two on Kurt and two
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: exceptional forensic handwriting analysis both said that Kurt did not
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: write the last four lines of that note, and of
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: course the top of the note reads just like a
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: retirement letter from Nirvana, because we know he wanted to
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: leave Nirvana and do his own thing. And then the
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: last four notes are basically I love you, I love you.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Please go on without me, you know, basically goodbye cruel world.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Very very classic, you know what you would think of
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: a suicide letter. But those lines are not written in
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: the same hand, and we have a lot of proof
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: that Kurt did not write those.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: So also in a city's full name, if I'm Kurt Cobain,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: why would why would you say Cobain?
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Would would you not you know, write your last name
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: on a on a letter to loved ones? I mean
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: it's very bizarre. Yeah, now there's no any thinking person,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: I know. We can't get into the brain of somebody.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: You know. People think Kurt was really depressed. Kurt was
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: not depressed. These are all things that Courtney said after
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Kurt was gone.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: So she that whole punk rock image.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, exactly right. You know, Henry Rollins has got
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: to be mad all the time, and it's like Henry
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Rollins actually like really cool, you know, and it's like
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: this whole thing of like, yeah, Kurt Cobain was really
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: depressed and sad and whiney. She said after he died
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: that Rome was a suicide attempt. After he died. While
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Kurt was still alive, she couldn't get away with it
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: because he would say, no, it wasn't a suicide attempt.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: When the police found him, yes, did they do no investigation?
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: They did absolutely nothing. So when they found him, they
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: found him in the morning. And you know, by the way,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: so Gary Smith, the electrician, he sees Kurt through the window.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: He thinks it's a mannequin, and then he sees a
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: little pool of blood from Kurt's ear, So then he's like,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: oh shit, right, So then he calls his because he
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to know what to do. His boss calls
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: a radio station to get free tickets to a concert
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: instead of calling the police. So he does that. I know, right,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: that's a classy move. The radio station calls the police
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: and says, you know, Kurt, there's a body at the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Lake Washington House, et cetera. We believe it's Kurt Cobain.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: So the police get there and they do absolutely no investigation.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: They see the suicide note and they go it was
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: a suicide case. Closed by ten in the morning. They
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: had confirmed it was a suicide before the toxicology was done,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: before the medical examiner had even wrapped Kurt's body up.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can't. The police should not be calling
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: it a suicide. The medical examiner is the one who
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: should be making that call, and he did not make
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: that call. Now, you know, the medical examiner used to
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: sleep with Courtney, right, So he was a punk rock
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: promoter and he did shows and he became a medical examiner.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: This is well documented and that was a conflict of interest.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: He never should have done Kurt's autopsy, but he did,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: and they represnamped it.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: So what do you think in reality happened then in
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: that room? What do you think actually went down at
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: the autopsy or in the green room?
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so this is my opinion. I think that
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Dylan and two other guys went up there. I think
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: one of them was Dylan's dealer, and I think they
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: gave Kurt a hot shot, and they you know, Kurt
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: was already so high at the time, I don't think
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: he was in any position to fight them, so they
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: gave him more dope. He was dying, he was passing out,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: and then they I think one of them actually held
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: the shotgun. I don't know whether it was Dylan or
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: whether it was one of his friends, and they shot
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: him in the mouth and one of them, I mean
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: it was shoulder that the shell ejected, so I believe
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: one of them was bending down with it over him,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: and then they positioned it, put his hand around it.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: We know his hand, this hand was on the gun.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Put his hand around the muzzle. We think they drug
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: him into position. If you see photos of his hair,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: it's clear that he's been dragged. And we have a
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: forensic scientist who has recreated the crime scene, and he's
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: been doing that for months. We have a peer reviewed
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: paper coming out in the next two months that's going
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: to prove that his death was a homicide. So they
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: moved him all around the greenhouse to set it up.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: It's very bizarre.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Why were they paid?
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well, so Courtney and Kurt had signed a
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: prenup and Courtney was going to get nothing. She knew
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Kurt wanted a divorce, so she ended up you know,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure she would have still gotten something,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: but she ended up getting the empathy she wanted. All
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Kurt's fans too, write this is a big thing. She
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: wanted to be the biggest rock star in the world.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: She wanted to be punk rock Madonna. So she ended
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: up getting the empathy from Kurt's fans and she got
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: so much famous. Do you think Hole's album would have
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: done shit if Kurt hadn't died a week before that
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: album came out? Not a chance, you know, It's just
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: not I mean, I'm not saying it's the worst seldom
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: in the world, but you know, she's just not that likable,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: you know, So I just don't think that she would
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: have had the success that she, you know, got, and
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: the four hundred and fifty million dollars you know that
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: she has gotten from the Cobaine estate since Kurt died,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: and we know that that. You know, there's there's another
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: a few issues. So that the lawyer, her entertainment lawyer,
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: was also Kurt's lawyer. She Kurt asked her to take
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Courtney out of his will and told her that he
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: wanted to divorce Courtney. Now she's also Courtney's lawyer. So
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: the week that Kurt went missing, Courtney is staying over
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: at her lawyer's house. Her lawyer's name was Rosemary Carroll,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: and after Courtney left, she had forgotten her backpack there,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: and Rosemary found a practice sheet of Kurt's handwriting in
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Courtney's bag. Why would you practice your spouse's handwriting. I mean,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: you know she's not signing autographs as Kurt. So when
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: we had our handwriting forensics done, it shows that the
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: last four lines of the suicide match very well with
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: the practice sheet that was found in Rosemary Carroll in
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: her house, that was in Courtney's bag. So we believe
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: we can prove that you know that that was written
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: by Courtney Michelle.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Excuse the pun, but are any other smoking guns?
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I'm trying to think of what I
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: haven't told you yet. We talked about so that we
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: talked about the toxicology. So you know, I'll just go
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: over that super quickly because for thirty one years people
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: have gone, well, we don't know if it was free
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: morphine or total morphine. And because the toxicology was released
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: in ninety eight, someone at the Washington State Lab just
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: let it leak to the public. I assume they let
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: it leak because they knew that his toxicology was too
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: hot to be a suicide or to be a to
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: then have had him use a shotgun. So finally we
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: have been able to get it analyzed, and because of
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: a metabolite of heromin called six MAM, we know that
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: he died very quickly after that shot. And we also
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: know that that one point five to two milligrams per
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: leader was not over twelve hours. That metabolizes very quickly,
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: usually within thirty minutes, so he was given that shot
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: thirty within thirty minutes of dying, or that six man
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: would not be present in the toxicology. So we can
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: now relate the toxicology to the autopsy that shows that
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: he was in multiple stages of organ failure along with
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: the toxicology, and then now knowing that the gun doesn't
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: work the way they said it did, there's literally no
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: way that he could have taken his own life. It's
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: literally impossible. And our forensic scientist, he's been doing this
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: for forty years, and he's like, every time we say
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: alleged suicide, he's like, Michelle, it's a homicide. Stop calling
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: it an alleged suicide. Like, we've proven now that this
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: was a homicide.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: So what do people in their circles say if they
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: have said anything over the years.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: So we have we have friends who are friends with
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Francis Bean and we have been told that she believes
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: her father was murdered and believes that her mother did it.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: But she said anything no, And I mean she grew up,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean she did grow up a little
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: bit with Wendy and I will tell you a little
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: bit more about Kurt's mom Wendy too. But I think
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: she just really wants a quiet life. I think she,
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: you know, she has her son and she just doesn't
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: She's had such a tumultuous growing up. I think that
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: she just really wants to, you know, get some peace.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: I we have not had any cease and desist. We've
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: had no issues with Francis at all. We don't think
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: that she is against what we're doing and by any
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: you know, you know, by any stretch of the imagination.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: So we also know that Kurt's sister, Kim, believes that
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: he was murdered. And the reason that she doesn't come
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: forward is again she you know, doesn't want to upset Francis.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: So we know Kurt's mom, before she passed, said that
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Kurt was murdered. Kurt's uncle, Gary, Kurt's grandpa, his grandma.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: So people say, well, oh, if Kurt didn't commit suicide,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: how come his family isn't fighting for him. Well, I
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: can't answer why they're not fighting, but I can tell
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: you that many people, and Kurt's grandpa fought for Kurt
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: for years. He's the reason we have the autopsy, because
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: he got the autopsy from the Washington State Lab.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: So I saw coming from Billy Corgan dismissing the idea
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: that he was killed.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Sure, because Billy Corgan is a is a forensic pathologist,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: and you know he has a Billy Corgan was sleeping
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: with Courtney a month before Kurt was killed. I don't
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: know what Billy Corgan knows, but I assume that he
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: has a pretty good idea. I mean, Courtney has said it,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: you know, she's She's said it on Twitter. She's talked
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: about putting a bullet in Kurt's head, She's joked about
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: it on stage. I mean, I don't know about you,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: but you know, my dad died, you know, a year ago,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: and I'm not joking about about killing him. It's it's
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: just a bizarre thing to do. But Courtney has done
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: these things, and I can't believe that any person who
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: has thought about it for more than five minutes would
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: not be able to see. You see the shotgun, you
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: see the toxicology, you cannot think he took his own life.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Has there been any comment from Chris and what's his name?
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Dave? Yeah, Dave, No, nothing. A few people have said.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: Somebody reported today on our YouTube that they went to
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: see Chris playing with one of in a band about
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: eight years ago and somebody yelled from the audience like
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: fuck Courtney, and he said, yeah, fuck Courtney, and then
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: they started chanting it and he said something like we
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: all know what she did. Total hearsay. He has never
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: We've never heard him ever come out and say anything.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I know that. He said on Reddit. If you have
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: evidence that Kurt didn't take his own life, please go
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: to the Seattle Police. But it's like, yeah, the same
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: people who fucked up the investigation. I mean, and you
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: have to look at too, so you look at the
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: police that were there that day. So we have Detective
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Don Cameron or Sergeant Don Cameron. He's an old school cop,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: like he ends up losing his job because one of
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: his subordinates steals money from a drug crime scene. Don
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: finds out and makes that guy put it back and
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: covers for him. So he's like loyal, right, Like it's
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: the Boys in Blue, They're a total boys club. He
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: is covering for a fellow cop. And that's why Cameron
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: has to resign from his job because he was going
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: to be fired. But he didn't steal anything. He wasn't
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: you know, he's just that loyal and you did not
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: go against Don Cameron. That was just not something people did.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: So there was no intended cover up by the police
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: or if bed anything. It was just it was just
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: useless detective work.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't care about junkies, you know, they literally
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: I know. But again, you know, you're looking at she's
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: telling the media. You're getting all of these reports Kurt's missing,
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: he escaped from exodus. He didn't escape, he walked out
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: the front door. You're getting all of this information in
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: the news that he's suicidal, he bought a shotgun, and
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: she's saying all this stuff, you know, the week that
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: he's gone missing, and that's just what they're all thinking.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: You know, when Kristin faff in Hole, the bass player
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: from Hole who died a few months later under very
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: suspicious circumstances, they did no investigation there as well. Now
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: no one will ever be able to prove Kristen was
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: murdered because she's simply odeed. I mean, this is going
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: to be their downfall, is that we are going to
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: easily prove that Kurt couldn't have used that shotgun. Now
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: you know what they're going to say, right, They're going
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: to say, we phoned Kurt he had overdosed, and we
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: wanted to make it murdermatic or cover a like some
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: insane thing that makes no sense. But that I guarantee
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: you when we talk next year and they're on trial
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: for this, they're going to say that they just covered
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: up his accidental overdose, and I'm telling you that it's
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: not true.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Do you think that the investigation will be reopened?
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I do. I think it's going to be reopened.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, we have three witnesses, we have a gun,
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: we have the toxicology, and we have the autopsy, and
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: it's all new people at the SPD, And you know,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: I really think that we have the best shot that
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: anyone has ever had of getting this case reopened. We
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: have a lawyer who's just like the best, really like
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: and it's been so interesting because he's old school, you know, Seattle,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: and at the beginning, he's very cautious and he's like
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: very skeptical, and now, you know, he'll send me the
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: odd joke about you know, Courtney or whatever. So like
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: he now is like, I mean, he you know, it
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: took us a few months and we're all on the
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: same page, and I think he's very he's very confident
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: that we have enough evidence that we should absolutely be
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: able to get this reopened.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: And what happened to the guys that were they acted Dylan.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Well, he's touring living off Kurtz money. He you know,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: he lived off of Kurt's money for a long time.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: We know somebody who used to run a mailbox in
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Ballard in Washington State where Dylan used to allegedly pick
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: up money orders from Courtney every month for five thousand dollars. So,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, we have to understand people, Well, why would
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: Kurt's friend kill Kurt? Because Kurt was leaving Nirvana, he
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: was probably going to quit Heroin, and he was possibly
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: leaving Washington. He was not going to be there to
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: hang out with Dylan and give him a bunch of
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: drug money anymore. And the way Joe talks about Dylan. Now, Joe,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: who is the witness. He's friends with Dylan. He was
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: friends with Dylan up until two years ago. Dylan was
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: putting him on his guest list until Joe said, Dylan
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: did this to Kurt. You know.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's it's also not that crazy to think
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: that druggies will commit these sorts of crimes. I'm reminded
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: of said Vicious. I think that I think that he
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: was killed by his mother and it was all just
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: a big drug fest, and and and this sort of
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: thing does happen with with druggies.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: And you know what, when somebody murders you, it's generally
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: somebody you know, you know, random murder, you know, serial
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: being killed by a serial killer, that type of stuff
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: that never happens. We know. It's generally the spouse or
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: someone in the family or someone close to the person
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: who does it. So now you said, said, do you
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: think that the drug dealer killed Nancy or do you
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: think said killed Nancy?
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: No, I think, said, I think said killed Nancy, And
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: then I think then I think said mother.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Killed said Okay, interesting.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: But it's been years since I've even spoken about that.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: But that's just my hypothesis.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Interesting. I think there was pretty good evidence recently on
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: something I was watching that a drug dealer came in
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: and SID was passed out on the bed and they're
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: actually the one who may have killed Nancy. So I'm
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: gonna have to look into it again. It was Yeah,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: it was pretty interesting, but.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: I didn't I mean, look, the whole thing with the
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: gloss and all that. This is a different topic now,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: but the whole thing with the gloss and all that.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: The whole thing was a mess. I mean, SID was
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: a mess. And funnily enough, I think Richard Brentson actually
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: knows what happened there.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: Oh how does he know?
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Because he was involved with with with music production at
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Oh right version, Yes, okay, interesting Virgin Records.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think he went I think he went
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: to visit SID. But anyway, that's a different discussion.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, I know, that's uh yeah, that's That's when
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: I've been interested in as well. And of course John Lennon.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: We had John Potash on and talked a lot about
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: that and how far up the you know, up the
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: chain that went. And interestingly enough, John's solo work was
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: also on Geffen. Now I don't believe there's any connection
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: to Geffen and what happened to Kurt to David Geffen,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: but very interesting anyways, these sort of.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Chains and there's a weird irony he got at age
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: twenty seven.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that was again Courtney, she loved that.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: And she's also really into astrology and there is some
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: kind of thing where it's like you become an adult
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: and there's a rebirth at twenty seven. So I think
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: that was something that she thought was really interesting. And
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: of course, you know, I mean she was super into
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: sid in Nancy. She thought she was Nancy Spongeen and
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: you know, so there. I think she loves the drama
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: of Kurt dying, him being in the twenty seven club,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: you know, the drama that he blew his head off
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: like these. It couldn't have worked out more perfectly for her,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: I think so. But you know, the story don't fall
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: for some Yes, don't do drugs first of all, don't
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: do drugs, kid kids and use a condom. He never
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: would have stayed with Courtney if he hadn't she hadn't
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: gotten pregnant four months into their relationship. I don't think
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: he would have waned but that's a lousy thing to say.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Don't you think that's a bit of a rough thing
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: to say, because Francis wouldn't be here.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: You're right, Okay, I am just saying Francis is a
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: beautiful human being, So you're right. I don't think he
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: regretted having Francis. But there are many people who stay
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: in relationships that they shouldn't be in because they want
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: to do right for their child. And I think that
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: men should have as much control over someone getting pregnant
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: as a woman. Does you know? I think worth control
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: for men is as.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Important, Michelle. But now, just another thing. Kutz physique. He
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't a very strong guy, was he?
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, no, he was pretty small. I think it
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: was about one hundred and you know, one hundred and
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: thirty pounds, five foot eight. He was a little guy. Yeah,
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: I mean he could smashed a.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Guitar, but yeah, no, sure, but I'm thinking of that
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Tom Way Johnny dipp was also beaten up by what's her.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Name, oh Amber heard, yes, yes.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: So it's the point I'm making is that it's not
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: unheard of that these sorts of things can happen.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I mean, it's it's a very
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: sad thing too, because I think Johnny was the same.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: You know, you're not going to hit a girl back.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: So and Courtney's quite tall, she's quite big, and she
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: is she punched him in the stomach. You know, he
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: had stomach issues. She punched him in the stomach. She
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: would grab him by the ear in front of his
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: friends and drag him away from people. She was very
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: physically abusive, and of course very mentally abusive as well.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: You know, but she and she separated him from all
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: his friends, people who cared about him. She really knew
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: what she was doing, I believe. And you know, let's
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: wind that back to Wendy for a second. Kurt's mom. So,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: when Kurt was killed, they gave her the suicide note,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: alleged suicide note, and they said, does this look like
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Kurt's writing? Now you're giving this to someone who is traumatized, grieving,
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: and probably feeling a lot of guilt. So she looks
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: at this and goes, yes, it looks like Kurt's writing.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, she's not she's not a forensic expert. I'm
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: sure she barely looked at it. She I'm sure she
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: didn't have the expertise or the I mean, or the
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: wherewithal at that point to know whether or not her
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: son wrote that. Now, the other thing is that for years,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: you know, she kind of towed the party liner, Kurt
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: was depressed, et cetera. And then before she died, she
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: started telling people that Courtney took Kurt's life and that
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: Kurt was murdered. And Francis was married to a guy
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: named Isaiah Silva. And do you know this story, this
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: is all public records, so that because there's a civil
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: lawsuit that happened. So Francis marries Isaiah, and Isaiah is
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: a huge Kurt Cobaine fan, and she gives him the
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: the uh what is the guitar from Unplugged? Sorry, So
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: she gives him the unplugged guitar as a wedding gift.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: And this is I mean, this means everything, right, This
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: is an incredible piece of musical history. So when when
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: Francis and Isaiah get divorced, Courtney decides she wants this
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: guitar back. Francis doesn't really care, but Courtney wants it.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: So Courtney hires people to go and try to force
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Isaiah to give this guitar back, so they beat him up,
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: they try to they take him in a car. They
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: say they're going to kill him and kill his daughter.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: And they are doing things like they broke into his
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: I message and started texting his family and friends saying
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: he was suicidal. I don't know if that brings any
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: bells to anybody, but they basically did to Isaiah what
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Courtney did to Kurt, trying to convince people that he
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: was suicidal. So Isaiah ended up escaping with his life.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: But this is all public record. Anyone can read about it,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: read about what Courtney did. It was the same guy
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: who abused Britney Spears. He's a very famous abuser in Hollywood,
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: and that was who she hired to go shake down Isaiah.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: And the courts ruled that Isaiah got to keep the guitar,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: and so they did get divorced, and Isaiah I believe
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: sold the guitar and now is kind of in hiding
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: because he I mean, they went in and roughed up
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: his mom, you know, like, they did not treat these
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: people very nicely, and he was scared for his life
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: in the life of his daughter.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: So have you faced pushback with all this investigation.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but not by Courtney, not by anybody, not Francis.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Not I mean, we wouldn't expect it from Francis, but
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: not Courtney. I don't know if you if you have
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: this issue, but in the true crime community or in
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: the Kirk community, everybody is buying for I want to
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: be the one who solves this. Oh, I want my
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: name attached to this. And so instead of working together,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of people will just kind of try to
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: take somebody else down. And I mean, the fact is
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: that over the last year and a half, we've I
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: believe we've put together there are enough evidence that the
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: case will now be reopened. And the people who have
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: sort of I mean, we've had depth threats, we've had
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: people assaulting us. Just it's been bananas. Yeah.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: It's a very strange thing though, because I can find
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: very few people anywhere in the world who have been
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: looking into Kurd's death. There is one other gentoo's name
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: I won't mention, and he wanted me to pay him
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: an exorbitant amount of money to come onto my show
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: to discuss this.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Are you well, can I mention his name or do
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: you want me to not to stay if you want Tom.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Wow, okay, so that's a funny thing. So let me
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: just tell you a little story about that. I used
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: to be friends with Tom and I had paid him
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: some money and helped him. I helped him redo his
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: whole website. I don't know if you've seen his terrible website,
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: but I redid it for him and put it on WX,
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: you know, upgraded him to like the twentieth century, because
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: we you know, he's not even in the twenty first century.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: But and then he decided not to use the website.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: I made him. That was fine. But when Joe came forward,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: I before I re released it online, I wanted to
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: talk to Tom and say, like, are we doing this right?
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Do you want to talk to this guy? Like what
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: should we do? And Tom told me Joe is a liar.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: I don't believe him. I know. Dylan wasn't there when
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: Kurt died and basically told me to get lost. And
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: now he has spent the last two years or year
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: and a half calling me names and trying to stop
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: our investigation and stop what we're doing because a seventy
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: seven year old man. I don't know, Jeremy, I think
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: he I don't know if it's just his ego. But
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: at some point he has stopped this case from moving forward.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: You know the movie Soaked in Bleach. Yes, so I
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: used to speak with Ben Statler, the guy who made it,
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: and he said that Tom stopped him from moving forward
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: with certain press like I believe it was like Hollywood Reporter,
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: inside Edition. They were going to do a big billboard
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: on in California. Tom said, absolutely not. I will walk
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: off the picture if you do this. Why he was
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: going to interview Michael Kelly DeWitt who was there. Kelly
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: wanted to talk to Ben, and Tom said, if you
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: talk to Cally, I'm done. I'm not working with you anymore.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: So Ben told me there were at least six instances
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: where Tom's would not let him move forward. So he
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: has tried to block this case. Now he's gatekeeping. He's
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: tried to block this case now for at least a decade.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know if he was legit at first. Allergies,
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: I've got something in my eye, and iout, no, that's okay,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: that's I'm surprised it's not me because it's always me.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: But but yeah, so I don't know what is wrong
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: with Tom. But he has spent. So then he goes,
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: I can prove Dylan wasn't there. Okay, well, proved Dylan
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: wasn't there. We're all waiting. He can't prove Itan wasn't there.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: There's no way he can prove Dylan wasn't there, because
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: we know Dylan was there. Dylan has admitted to being
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: there the night Kurt died, so we know Dylan wasn't there.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: But Tom just instead of saying, oh, you know, well,
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: Joe's a Nazi. You know, he calls them all these
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: these names. So he just says, well, I don't believe
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Joe because you know he's this or he's that. Okay,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: but where's the proof you said you had?
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: So he yeah, he's uh, it's it's such an interesting
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: topic this. So I mean, obviously this is you know, entertainment,
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: pop culture, and I think many in my audience will go, well,
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter, does it. But it kind of
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: does because it's part of my youth, and not just
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: that it's not just a random band. It was an
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: incredibly important sort of subculture back in the nineties. But
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: there's a deeper message. Yeah. Also, it just shows how deadly,
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: literally deadly drugs can be.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean it really does. And you know,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who have taken their
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: own lives because they think Kurt did. And you know,
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: even two years ago, we had a kid who that
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: he killed himself on I believe he died on the
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: eighth of April and it was because Kirt did. At
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: what point are we going to stop believing this ridiculous
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: narrative that is just absolutely hilarious. I mean, this is
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: not something that it's not over. People still believe he
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: did this and it's still affecting children. And you know,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: if you don't look into something, and I can see
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: why lots of people don't. You know, it's like I
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: don't have the time. People are living their lives, they
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: have children, they have things, you know that they're doing.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: This is I mean, there are a lot of crazy
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: things happening in the world today that take up all
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: of our bandwidth, but you know, this is I think
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: this is still just really important. And you know, we've
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: had We've had a lot of people who have told us,
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: you know, you've changed my mind. You know, we have
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: we sell t shirts and we sell them because they
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: promote people being aware of what has happened, so they
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: say justice for Kurt, and then every time somebody wears one,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: they'll send us an email and say, I had forty
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: people stop me today and I told them all what
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: happened to Kurt, and they were like, oh, I didn't
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: know that. And I mean, I think people once they've
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: kind of heard what happened to Kurt, or if you
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: see the pictures, you're like, this doesn't make any sense.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: So I think that people are not going to fight this,
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: you know, once we once they see the evidence, they
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: they know we've been bamboozled, you know, for thirty one years.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, and it also opens the door to other deaths
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: like John Lennon, which I think was a Central Intel operation.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: I agree, and in fact, in fact, I mean he
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: was a critical figure in the sort of anti war movement.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: So the point here is that it is worth not
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: blindly accepting what you're told.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, I agree. And you know, people don't understand, well, oh,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: why didn't the cops pick up on this, because also,
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: you know, they're the thing that people are catching on now.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: But like men can be abused, you know, and people
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: don't understand, well, why don't you just leave, and it's
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: never that simple, the psychology of abuse. It just doesn't
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: work that way. And so I think that's another thing
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: that people. You know, people still think Kirk was really cool,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: and he was really cool, and he was kind, and
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: you know, he was an epic songwriter. He was just
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: so good. And if somebody like that can be affected
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: by abuse in that way, no one else has to
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: feel shame that they didn't get out of a situation
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: or that they're in that same situation. So I think
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: that's important too, just bringing awareness to that no matter
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: who you are, no matter how big you are, no
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: matter how much money you have, you can also be
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: in a situation where you're facing abuse.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: With the lights out, it's less dangerous. Here we are
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: now entertain us. I feel stupid and contagious here we
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: are now entertain us.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I will say one other thing. You
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: know that somebody noted when the police found Kurt, the
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: lights were out in the greenhouse. So who turned the
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: lights out? Did he turn them out before he took
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: his own life at three in the morning, How did
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: he see to do the to give himself the shot?
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Or you know, finish writing the suicide note? Or any
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: of the other things they said he did. You know,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: he supposedly put the caps back on the little needles,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: and you know, did all of these insane things in
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: between shooting up and using the shotgun. So he did
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: all that in the dark as well.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: So how can I follow your work?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Please follow us on YouTube, where I'll give you the link.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: It's just a YouTube who Killed Kurt Official, And then
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: we have a website that's just who Killed Kurt dot
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: org and that links to the website Copycat Suicides. There's
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: a deep dive. So if anybody wants to read about
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: Isaiah Silva other lawsuits Courtney's been involved in, we've got
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: that all there.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Michelle Wilkins, thank you for joining me in the trenches.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Love seeing you again.