Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BURN NOTICE: JURY HANGS IN DEADLY PACIFIC PALISADES FIRE, BODY COUNT 12

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BURN NOTICE: JURY HANGS IN DEADLY PACIFIC PALISADES FIRE, BODY COUNT 12 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace death devastation. I can't believe it.
0:11
Speaker 1: A jury deadlocks in the horrific fatal Palisades fire trial.
0:21
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
0:23
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Quote. We have people
0:27
Speaker 1: on both sides that are dead set, unwavering, and unwilling
0:32
Speaker 1: to change their opinion. That was the note from a
0:36
Speaker 1: jury read out loud in court by Judge Anne Hawang.
0:40
Speaker 1: What now a jury claims it quote can't decide on
0:46
Speaker 1: the case of a man accused of starting the deadly,
0:50
Speaker 1: deadly Palisades fire in LA After two long days of deliberation,
0:58
Speaker 1: twenty nine year old Jonathan Renderkneck was charged with three
1:03
Speaker 1: federal counts. Now the jury quote can't decide, Well, these
1:09
Speaker 1: are the facts.
1:11
Speaker 2: People said, there's a fire in your area, and that's
1:16
Speaker 2: when I ran upstairs to see if I could see
1:18
Speaker 2: anything in softlings everywhere and realized that we didn't really
1:21
Speaker 2: have a second longer.
1:23
Speaker 3: And this is the most devastating nightmare any of us
1:27
Speaker 3: have covered.
1:28
Speaker 1: Nothing left and people, did you start a fire and
1:32
Speaker 1: a death occurs? That's a felony. And I am not
1:35
Speaker 1: going to be happy until these these perps are apprehended
1:39
Speaker 1: and charge to the max. Is that finally happening tonight
1:44
Speaker 1: a bombshell in the Palisades fire case. I want you
1:47
Speaker 1: to hear the US attorney.
1:48
Speaker 4: As the world watched in horror as the Polisades fire burned.
1:53
Speaker 4: Victims perished in the smoke and flames, homes where shares,
1:58
Speaker 4: family memories, and belong means were turned to rubble in ash.
2:02
Speaker 4: The iconic Pacific Coast Highway along Malibu looked like a
2:06
Speaker 4: war zone. Thousands of people were forced to evacuate. The
2:11
Speaker 4: homes and businesses cannot be rebuilt.
2:14
Speaker 1: It's one thing to hear the US attorney speaking about
2:17
Speaker 1: what happened. Is another thing, entirely to hear from an
2:22
Speaker 1: actual victim. Straight out to Stephanie Leidecker Stephanie formerly of
2:30
Speaker 1: LA She is the executive producer, host of True Crime Tonight,
2:35
Speaker 1: founder CEO of k T Studios. Stephanie, with your background,
2:41
Speaker 1: this must have felt like a movie production, except it
2:46
Speaker 1: was real and you have your son. You're a single mom,
2:51
Speaker 1: You've got a son. You have to say what happened, Stephanie.
2:54
Speaker 3: You know I was just working from home. I lived
2:57
Speaker 3: right off of Sunset at the time, and I started
3:00
Speaker 3: noticing cars basically backing up in front of my house,
3:04
Speaker 3: and that's very unusual because it's a dead end. And
3:07
Speaker 3: I was on a work zoom, and I went outside,
3:09
Speaker 3: and sure enough that you could see the blaze coming.
3:12
Speaker 3: And if anyone knows that area sort of by t
3:15
Speaker 3: Mescal Canyon in sunset, it is gridlock on a good day.
3:19
Speaker 3: So suddenly everyone's trying to evacuate, and you know, people
3:24
Speaker 3: were abandoning cars in front of me and running on foot,
3:29
Speaker 3: which I understood because it felt as though there was
3:32
Speaker 3: a chance we wouldn't get out.
3:35
Speaker 5: Yes, and my son, you know, thankfully, we're all good.
3:38
Speaker 3: He was evacuated from his school, and we were the
3:42
Speaker 3: lucky ones.
3:42
Speaker 5: You know.
3:43
Speaker 3: The structure that I was living in remained, by the
3:46
Speaker 3: grace of God. But I can promise you so many
3:49
Speaker 3: of the people and neighbors and loved ones, you know,
3:52
Speaker 3: people who have lived in their home for forty five
3:54
Speaker 3: plus years, this is it. They are wiped to the
3:57
Speaker 3: ground and there's no real way to start over. And
4:01
Speaker 3: to say it was an apocalypse, it's an understatement. So
4:05
Speaker 3: my heart goes out to everyone who was still sort
4:07
Speaker 3: of going through the ashes and picking up the pieces,
4:10
Speaker 3: because it really hasn't stopped yet. You know, people are
4:13
Speaker 3: still living with those who they evacuated to, can you imagine.
4:18
Speaker 5: So yeah, hopefully there's some justice to be had.
4:21
Speaker 1: Stephanie Leidecker, you stated that you noticed cars were beginning
4:26
Speaker 1: to back up bumper to bumper right outside your home,
4:30
Speaker 1: and that's odd in a residential area to suddenly, say,
4:35
Speaker 1: a parking lot out outside your front door completely and
4:39
Speaker 1: then you look out and see flames. Where were the flames?
4:45
Speaker 3: I was slightly kind of really near ground zero. They
4:47
Speaker 3: were just up ahead on the top of the hill.
4:51
Speaker 3: I was fairly new to the area too, so I
4:53
Speaker 3: was so ill prepared for this. I went out, saw
4:57
Speaker 3: the flames and realized everybody who was backing up on
4:59
Speaker 3: my stre it was literally trying to evacuate.
5:02
Speaker 5: There's only one way out.
5:04
Speaker 3: And remember, as people abandon their cars, fire trucks can't
5:07
Speaker 3: get in, and then residents can't get out. So you know,
5:11
Speaker 3: it took you know, over six hours to get you know,
5:14
Speaker 3: a mile and a half because as the time progressed,
5:18
Speaker 3: it went from clear sky to smoke to straight fog.
5:23
Speaker 3: You know, your phone isn't working because you don't have
5:25
Speaker 3: satellite reception. You know, it's harrowing kids and pets, And
5:30
Speaker 3: you described your phone and went out. In my case,
5:32
Speaker 3: I didn't assume I would be back in maybe fifteen minutes,
5:35
Speaker 3: and that this was just a little something, And boy
5:38
Speaker 3: was I wrong.
5:38
Speaker 5: The devastation is really unmatched.
5:42
Speaker 3: And listen for firefighters, in law enforcement and the people
5:45
Speaker 3: who really put their lives on the.
5:48
Speaker 5: Line to keep all of us safe.
5:51
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful, you know, Stephanie, you stated that your son,
5:55
Speaker 1: your beautiful boy, was evacuated from his school. Say that
6:01
Speaker 1: would throw me over the edge, not knowing did the
6:04
Speaker 1: twins get evacuated? Where are they? When can I get
6:08
Speaker 1: to them? How can I get to them? That's one
6:10
Speaker 1: of my greatest fears, being separated from them at a
6:13
Speaker 1: time of emergency, and I can't get to them. What
6:16
Speaker 1: was going through your mind? You can see the fire, yeah,
6:20
Speaker 1: and you don't have your son.
6:22
Speaker 3: And you can't really communicate, right. So I'm so grateful
6:26
Speaker 3: that the middle school he was attending, they really went
6:30
Speaker 3: above and beyond and were able to evacuate the entire
6:33
Speaker 3: school to or further location. But again, you don't know
6:36
Speaker 3: where that location is because you're struggling with communication. And
6:39
Speaker 3: I will say this. You know people say this. I
6:42
Speaker 3: can attest to it now. You know that is all
6:45
Speaker 3: that mattered was getting to him. Nothing else did. And
6:50
Speaker 3: I put my money where my mouth is on that one.
6:53
Speaker 3: You know, stuff is stuff, but safety. People lost their lives.
6:57
Speaker 3: Twelve people were killed in this fire. You know in
6:59
Speaker 3: the up the station isn't over yet. So yes, just
7:02
Speaker 3: getting to my son, seeing him and wrapping my arms
7:06
Speaker 3: around him, I felt in my heart we were divinely
7:10
Speaker 3: guided and continue to be so to some extent.
7:15
Speaker 2: You know.
7:15
Speaker 1: Two psychoanalys joining us out of the California jurisdiction. Doctor
7:20
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. She's the author of deal Breaker. She's currently
7:23
Speaker 1: on Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany
7:26
Speaker 1: Marshall dot com. Who are these people? You hear? Alison
7:30
Speaker 1: is still trying to get everyone out of her house,
7:33
Speaker 1: trying to save them. There's six people that she's got
7:37
Speaker 1: to evacuate, two children, two elderly parents for sale for
7:40
Speaker 1: her husband, all the pets, all of this, all of that,
7:44
Speaker 1: and she looks up and she sees guys pulling up
7:47
Speaker 1: to start looting houses. She's not even out of the
7:50
Speaker 1: house yet. Who are those people?
7:52
Speaker 6: And Nancy, this happened so quickly.
7:54
Speaker 7: It was like a giant was standing over the Pacific
7:56
Speaker 7: Palisades with a blowtorch.
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Speaker 1: This was not a fire, This was the whole.
8:01
Speaker 7: Area being torched. And that these looters had the time
8:04
Speaker 7: to get there tells me that, you know, after every
8:07
Speaker 7: like a riot, a demonstration, a fire, criminals move in
8:13
Speaker 7: very quickly afterwards. And I think it's a group of
8:15
Speaker 7: people who are actually wanting to loot, and they're just
8:18
Speaker 7: waiting for the right opportunity. And Nancy, one more thing
8:22
Speaker 7: to place us into context. It wasn't just the Palisades,
8:25
Speaker 7: it was Altadenis. I have an office nearby, and I
8:28
Speaker 7: have colleagues and friends who were sitting with their patients
8:32
Speaker 7: and they saw the fire coming over the hill. I
8:35
Speaker 7: have patients who want to move back home. They could
8:39
Speaker 7: rebuild the fires that the houses they've lost, but there's
8:43
Speaker 7: no infrastructure. There's no churches, there's no synagogues, no running water,
8:48
Speaker 7: no neighbors, no community. So it's not just the destruction
8:52
Speaker 7: of each individual home, it's the destruction of everything. And
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Speaker 7: I have one patient who had a million dollar home
9:00
Speaker 7: home the insurance. The insurance company offered her two hundred
9:05
Speaker 7: thousand dollars to rebuild the home and she can't do
9:09
Speaker 7: it with that.
9:10
Speaker 1: In addition to all the property damage you're hearing about,
9:13
Speaker 1: at least twelve people die and now who did it?
9:21
Speaker 1: Just I hope you're sitting down listen.
9:25
Speaker 4: Today we are announcing the arrest of twenty nine year
9:28
Speaker 4: old Jonathan grinderneckt for igniting a fire that ultimately burned
9:33
Speaker 4: down the policies earlier this year, killing twelve people, destroying
9:38
Speaker 4: more than sixty eight hundred structures, both homes and businesses,
9:42
Speaker 4: and damaging over one thousand more buildings.
9:45
Speaker 1: Who is this guy? And why why burn? And notice?
9:52
Speaker 1: How can we prove and our sin first? Is very
9:55
Speaker 1: difficult to do. You have to prove first of all
9:59
Speaker 1: that a crime occurs, that this was not some sort
10:01
Speaker 1: of an accident, but then intent, that a crime was intended.
10:08
Speaker 1: Who in the world would cause such an incident, claiming
10:13
Speaker 1: the lives of at least twelve and ruining literally thousands
10:16
Speaker 1: of acres, ripping people from their homes and they can
10:19
Speaker 1: never go back. Who is this guy?
10:21
Speaker 8: Growing up in France, renderneck is now living in Pacific Palisades,
10:25
Speaker 8: working as an uber driver. In the Fall, render Neeck
10:28
Speaker 8: feeds chat GPT a detailed prompt blending imagery of a
10:32
Speaker 8: dystopian painting divided into parts that blend together seamlessly, fire, fear,
10:37
Speaker 8: rich people, and the poor. A month later, he tells
10:40
Speaker 8: a family member he burned his Bible and describes it
10:43
Speaker 8: to Chad GPT as liberating. As the year comes to
10:47
Speaker 8: an end, his last Passengers of twenty twenty four described
10:50
Speaker 8: the twenty nine year old as agitated and angry.
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Speaker 1: I don't understand what I'm hearing. He tells a family
10:57
Speaker 1: member he burned his Bible and he said it was liberating,
11:03
Speaker 1: and he is relentlessly searching chat gpt. He blends an
11:10
Speaker 1: imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts, fire, fear,
11:19
Speaker 1: rich people, and poor, and the fire is looming down
11:23
Speaker 1: on all of them. That's his work. He created that
11:28
Speaker 1: Sydney sumner. That's absolutely correct.
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Speaker 9: Investigators found that Renderneck created a concerning chat GPT prompt,
11:38
Speaker 9: so he asked chat gpt, this AI service to create
11:42
Speaker 9: an image of a city essentially burning down. So it
11:47
Speaker 9: created twelve different shots and you see the fire tearing
11:52
Speaker 9: through this city and people running out of the city
11:55
Speaker 9: into the woods for cover. It's very, very disturbing.
11:59
Speaker 1: It is just and I would say probative that it
12:02
Speaker 1: proves something. But to Dina Dahl joining us out of
12:07
Speaker 1: this jurisdiction, try a lawyer, attorney, track consultant, Dina. If
12:14
Speaker 1: they want to make these charges stick, they're going to
12:17
Speaker 1: need more than a dystopian painting depicting a fire looming
12:22
Speaker 1: down on all parts of some dystopian city. They're going
12:25
Speaker 1: to need more than that.
12:27
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
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Speaker 10: I mean the fact that he wants this image, and
12:31
Speaker 10: also the fact that he listened to a song, which
12:33
Speaker 10: I'm sure you'll talk about as well. You know, people's
12:36
Speaker 10: aren't aren't great, you know, motivation in court, you know,
12:41
Speaker 10: presenting a picture and a song somebody listened to, as
12:45
Speaker 10: you said, Arson is going to be very difficult to prove.
12:48
Speaker 10: And this, you know, is how somebody enjoys their music
12:52
Speaker 10: or what images they like to see. That's going to
12:55
Speaker 10: be hard to connect the dots to a journey.
13:03
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the pain, the suffering, the
13:11
Speaker 1: devastation caused by the Palisades fire. La Hollywood has never
13:17
Speaker 1: been the same people dead, people's homes destroyed. In the
13:21
Speaker 1: midst of all of this, a jury deadlocks in the
13:26
Speaker 1: case of the Palisades fire. This as an ex fire
13:30
Speaker 1: chief is suing LA Mayor Karen Bass over the fire claims.
13:36
Speaker 1: The former LA Fire Department chief, Kristin Crowley files a
13:40
Speaker 1: defamation case against the LA Mayor Karen Bass, claiming the
13:45
Speaker 1: mayor falsely blamed her Crowley for the city's response or
13:50
Speaker 1: lack thereof, in the Palisades fire, and that it ruined
13:55
Speaker 1: her professional reputation. Now, according to this lawsuit, Crowleys Bass,
14:02
Speaker 1: the LA mayor made false statements while campaigning for re election,
14:07
Speaker 1: including claims Crowley was the one responsible for inoperable fire engines.
14:13
Speaker 1: Can you believe that fire engines that don't work? And
14:17
Speaker 1: that she failed to properly deploy firefighters. Crowley claims those
14:21
Speaker 1: statements were made while Bass was a political candidate and
14:25
Speaker 1: are not protected by governmental immunity. What does that mean?
14:29
Speaker 1: Sovereign immunity? The King can do no wrong. If you
14:32
Speaker 1: don't like where the president or the governor says, you
14:36
Speaker 1: can't sue them. Right, king can do no wrong. That's
14:39
Speaker 1: part of our common law, brought over from Great Britain
14:43
Speaker 1: that said the former LA Fire chief Kristin Crowley says
14:47
Speaker 1: sovereign immunity isn't working in this case with Mayor Bass
14:51
Speaker 1: because she was just running for office at the time
14:54
Speaker 1: she made those statements that said, back to the facts
14:59
Speaker 1: of that death lead fire? How can a jury deadline?
15:02
Speaker 4: After dropping off at Passenger in Pacific Pali Seats, Rinderneck
15:06
Speaker 4: parked his car and tried and failed to contact a
15:10
Speaker 4: former friend. He exited the car, walked up a nearby trail,
15:15
Speaker 4: took iPhone videos at a nearby hilltop, and listened to
15:19
Speaker 4: a rap song whose music video including objects being lit
15:23
Speaker 4: on fire. The defendant had listened to this song and
15:26
Speaker 4: watched its music video repeatedly in the days leading up
15:30
Speaker 4: to the Lochman fire. Twelve minutes into the new year,
15:34
Speaker 4: environmental sensing platforms indicated that a fire had started.
15:38
Speaker 1: Isn't it true, Sydney Summer Crime Stories investigative reporter that
15:42
Speaker 1: he listened to this song over and over and over
15:46
Speaker 1: and it's all about burning burning things down.
15:51
Speaker 9: Yes, Rendernick listened to this song repeatedly in the days
15:56
Speaker 9: leading up to the Lochman fire, a song.
15:59
Speaker 1: That he was playing on loop let's listen to it.
16:18
Speaker 1: He played that over and over and over on loop
16:21
Speaker 1: that from at Josman. So the state's gonna need more
16:25
Speaker 1: than what he was listening to in his earpod. And
16:29
Speaker 1: they're gonna need more than some wacky dystopian painting. They're
16:33
Speaker 1: gonna need hard evidence to prove it. Arson case. Guys
16:35
Speaker 1: joining me right now. Shannon Butler, investigative reporter w f
16:39
Speaker 1: TV Channel nine, Florida. She just walked out a federal
16:44
Speaker 1: court a few hours ago for she observed the suspect
16:48
Speaker 1: at his first court appear at Shannon Butler, what happened.
16:51
Speaker 11: We just got out of this federal courthouse here in
16:54
Speaker 11: downtown Orlando. This was a detention hearing, and what the
16:58
Speaker 11: judge decided is that he is too much of a
17:01
Speaker 11: flight risk to be allowed bond, So he will remain
17:04
Speaker 11: behind bars here in Orlando until he has transferred then
17:08
Speaker 11: back to LA. There is another hearing now on October seventeenth. Well,
17:13
Speaker 11: they will present some more of that evidence that preliminary hearing,
17:17
Speaker 11: But today the judge was concerned about his mental state
17:21
Speaker 11: and his living arrangements.
17:23
Speaker 12: He had been living in.
17:24
Speaker 11: Florida for about the last five months, living with his
17:28
Speaker 11: sister and brother in law. But in the last month,
17:31
Speaker 11: two nine one one calls were made from that home.
17:35
Speaker 11: The first call came about September seventeenth, where the family
17:40
Speaker 11: members told them there was a disturbance inside the home
17:43
Speaker 11: where he threatened.
17:45
Speaker 12: To burn their house down.
17:47
Speaker 11: Now, just a week later, another nine to one one
17:50
Speaker 11: call from that home where his father said that he
17:53
Speaker 11: had a gun and was threatening to shoot his brother
17:57
Speaker 11: in law if his brother in law started to come
18:00
Speaker 11: towards him, and he needed to do that in self defense.
18:04
Speaker 11: So the family really put painting a picture for us
18:07
Speaker 11: here of a defining mental state.
18:09
Speaker 1: Okay, Shannon Butler, don't know Shannon Butler joining US invest
18:12
Speaker 1: He had reporter WFTV Channel nine, Florida. You said, the
18:17
Speaker 1: judge stated, the suspect is a flight risk, which leads
18:22
Speaker 1: to me to my first question, what's he doing in Florida.
18:26
Speaker 1: If he can make it all the way from California
18:28
Speaker 1: to Florida, he clearly is a flight risk. What did
18:31
Speaker 1: he drive his ubercar there?
18:32
Speaker 11: Well, he did drive his car from California to Florida,
18:36
Speaker 11: but the judge said he also has ties to France.
18:39
Speaker 11: It's where another brother and his father lived. He lived
18:43
Speaker 11: there for some time. He even speaks French. They were
18:46
Speaker 11: concerned about that. They were also concerned because he made
18:49
Speaker 11: some comments that he may go try to live in Bali,
18:52
Speaker 11: so all of those things.
18:53
Speaker 12: Oh another thing, Nancy.
18:55
Speaker 11: He told investigators that he could not find his passport.
18:59
Speaker 12: It was lost.
19:00
Speaker 11: That of course, raising quite a concern for the judge
19:03
Speaker 11: when you don't know where your passport is. They said, well,
19:05
Speaker 11: what is lost could be found.
19:06
Speaker 1: Shannon Butler joining us outside the courthouse. You're absolutely correct, Shannon.
19:10
Speaker 1: He grew up in France, he lived there many many years.
19:13
Speaker 1: Then he goes to Pacific Palisades. I don't know what
19:15
Speaker 1: occurred in between that France and Pacific Palisades. Now he's
19:19
Speaker 1: in Melbourne, Florida, and he's been working as an uber driver.
19:23
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, according to the federal government,
19:26
Speaker 1: just before he started the fire that turned into the
19:30
Speaker 1: Palisades fire, he had just dropped off his first Uber
19:35
Speaker 1: passenger of the year. He lives on chat GPT, which
19:42
Speaker 1: is going to be a treasure trove for prosecutors. But
19:46
Speaker 1: let me understand, he's not getting bond. Is that right?
19:51
Speaker 12: That is correct?
19:52
Speaker 11: You will were made here in Orlando and tell another
19:55
Speaker 11: hearing where he has for evidence here on October seventeenth,
19:59
Speaker 11: after it remains to be seen when he will then
20:02
Speaker 11: head back to California to face these charges. Remember, Nancy,
20:05
Speaker 11: these are just the beginning of what could be more
20:07
Speaker 11: and more charges right now facing a mandatory minimum of
20:10
Speaker 11: five years up up to.
20:14
Speaker 12: Twenty or so.
20:15
Speaker 11: But now they're looking at the possibility of twenty to
20:19
Speaker 11: the death penalty because I remember a dozen deaths there
20:22
Speaker 11: in California.
20:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, a dozen. If that doesn't qualify
20:26
Speaker 1: for the death penalty, I don't know what will. And
20:28
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get into it with Dina Dole in just
20:31
Speaker 1: a moment regarding felony murder. But Shannon Butler, what was
20:34
Speaker 1: your observation of him in court?
20:36
Speaker 11: So he walked in in a red jumpsuit, He was
20:39
Speaker 11: a little bit disheveled.
20:40
Speaker 12: He has long hair, He was disheveled.
20:44
Speaker 11: He did engage with his public defender quite a bit,
20:48
Speaker 11: sometimes smiling, shaking his head a lot at what the
20:52
Speaker 11: prosecutors were saying. The prosecutors had some conversations with the
20:57
Speaker 11: courtroom about him breaking with a girl just before he
21:01
Speaker 11: allegedly started this fire. That he broke up with her,
21:05
Speaker 11: and he was in kind of a bad state, didn't
21:07
Speaker 11: have any friends, didn't have a network, and that's kind
21:10
Speaker 11: of when things started to go downhill.
21:12
Speaker 1: Shannon, stop stop right there, you think I care he
21:17
Speaker 1: broke up with his girlfriend, who on this panel has
21:19
Speaker 1: never been dumped at least once. We've all been dumped
21:24
Speaker 1: by somebody, and we've all dumped somebody. So what wait,
21:29
Speaker 1: he is in a bad place? What are you saying
21:34
Speaker 1: to me? He was in a bad place. He had
21:37
Speaker 1: a car, he had ear pods, he had a full stomach,
21:41
Speaker 1: a place to stay, gasoline in his car. You know
21:45
Speaker 1: people around the world. That means he's in the top
21:47
Speaker 1: one percent of people in the world. So what do
21:51
Speaker 1: you mean he's in a bad place, so bad he
21:53
Speaker 1: had to kill twelve people and destroy the line. Did
21:56
Speaker 1: you hear Stephanie Lydecker? Her whole place gone, her son evacuated,
22:01
Speaker 1: She didn't even know where he was.
22:03
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's what the prosecutors basically said that what has
22:08
Speaker 11: happened to him was not didn't really give a good
22:13
Speaker 11: excuse for what happened here. They said when they approached
22:17
Speaker 11: him and started to interview him back in January that
22:20
Speaker 11: he told a lot.
22:21
Speaker 12: Of lies to those investigators.
22:24
Speaker 11: They wouldn't he wouldn't answer questions like what kind of
22:26
Speaker 11: cigarettes do you smoke? And today in court they found
22:30
Speaker 11: out not only did they know he had one gun,
22:32
Speaker 11: that he was keeping Nancy in a bear with a
22:36
Speaker 11: zipper on it, a child's toy, that's where he was
22:39
Speaker 11: keeping this gun. But today the special agent got on
22:42
Speaker 11: the stand and said, just today they got some evidence
22:45
Speaker 11: back that he had a second gun in his possession
22:48
Speaker 11: that they knew nothing about. They said he wasn't very
22:51
Speaker 11: honest in those original interviews and that was another reason
22:54
Speaker 11: they thought he should stay here behind bars.
22:56
Speaker 1: Straight back out to Shannon Butler WFTV Channel nine, who
23:01
Speaker 1: has been in the courtroom observing the defendant. This is
23:05
Speaker 1: a huge break in the case. It's very hard to
23:08
Speaker 1: determine first whether a case is arson because the evidence
23:12
Speaker 1: is all burned up, and then if it is arson intentional,
23:15
Speaker 1: who did it. The last thing you want is a firebug,
23:20
Speaker 1: a pyromaniac with two guns wandering around who's threatening people.
23:25
Speaker 1: So the judge did the right thing keeping him behind bars.
23:29
Speaker 1: But you stated that he was you said, shaking his head.
23:33
Speaker 1: I assume that means shaking his head, no, not nodding
23:36
Speaker 1: his head. Yes, correct, correct. Did he say anything in court, No.
23:41
Speaker 12: He didn't.
23:41
Speaker 11: The only thing that he said was the judge asked
23:44
Speaker 11: him again how to pronounce his name, and he gave
23:47
Speaker 11: him the pronunciation of his name. But that's all all
23:50
Speaker 11: he said in this about an hour and a half
23:54
Speaker 11: hearing this.
23:54
Speaker 1: Morning, Shannon Butler, you said that he was disagreeing with
23:57
Speaker 1: what the prosecutors were saying.
23:59
Speaker 11: Yeah, he shook his head when they started talking about
24:02
Speaker 11: his ex girlfriend. That on New Year's Eve, right before
24:06
Speaker 11: this fire started, he had text his ex she did
24:10
Speaker 11: not answer.
24:11
Speaker 12: He had text somebody else that said, no, I don't
24:14
Speaker 12: want to hang out. I need some space.
24:15
Speaker 11: And then a third person he texts to try to
24:18
Speaker 11: hang out with on New Year's Eve said they didn't
24:20
Speaker 11: remember him. So he was shaking his head during that
24:24
Speaker 11: and a couple of other times when they were talking
24:27
Speaker 11: about those incidents inside the home where he was living.
24:30
Speaker 11: Nancy let me point out too, that the brother in
24:33
Speaker 11: law and the sister were so afraid inside their own
24:37
Speaker 11: they wanted to get him out, and police said, you know,
24:39
Speaker 11: you probably should leave.
24:40
Speaker 12: Here's how you evict somebody. But they were so scared.
24:44
Speaker 11: In the meantime, they moved out of their own home,
24:47
Speaker 11: and he was living in that house by himself because
24:50
Speaker 11: the brother in law and the sister did not want
24:52
Speaker 11: to live with him anymore with their kids. They thought
24:55
Speaker 11: he was just not in the right state of mind
24:57
Speaker 11: given the last couple of things that had happened.
25:00
Speaker 1: Wow, his sister and her husband and children move out
25:04
Speaker 1: of their own home rather than live with him there
25:08
Speaker 1: out of fear. Okay, I see a case beginning the
25:13
Speaker 1: building of a case. It's not just a sub dystopian
25:17
Speaker 1: painting he created on chat GPT. It's not just listening
25:20
Speaker 1: to lyrics where you see a guy burning up money,
25:24
Speaker 1: starting a fire in a trash can and you watch
25:26
Speaker 1: it over and over and over and the guy singing
25:30
Speaker 1: is just totally miserable. But we're getting more evidence. We're
25:36
Speaker 1: getting more evidence. I want you to hear what the
25:39
Speaker 1: US attorney has to say.
25:41
Speaker 4: It took the defendant several tries to try to tack
25:44
Speaker 4: nine to one one to report the fire. He fled
25:47
Speaker 4: the scene in his car, but turned around after passing
25:50
Speaker 4: fire engines driving in the opposite direction to fight there
25:54
Speaker 4: to fight the fire. While the Lachman fire burned, the
25:57
Speaker 4: defendant walked up the same tree from earlier that night
26:01
Speaker 4: to watch the fire and firefighters, using his iPhone to
26:05
Speaker 4: take short videos of the scene.
26:07
Speaker 1: To Dina Dahl, joining US veteran trial lawyer, out of
26:11
Speaker 1: this jurisdiction, you've got the alleged purp calling nine one
26:16
Speaker 1: one over and over and over from the scene where
26:21
Speaker 1: the fire started. That speaks to me. That means something.
26:27
Speaker 1: In fact, one of the biggest arson cases I ever
26:30
Speaker 1: investigated and prosecuted, the purp himself called nine one one.
26:34
Speaker 1: He's a millionaire. When the fire trucks arrived, he was
26:38
Speaker 1: lying all romanesque on the lawn across the street from
26:41
Speaker 1: his home, which was in flames. After about four or
26:45
Speaker 1: five minutes, he goes, oh, yeah, my wife's in there.
26:48
Speaker 1: Yeah he called nine one one, just like this guy's
26:50
Speaker 1: calling nine one one. What about it, Dina Doll, I.
26:53
Speaker 10: Think what you said there, alleged We've got to remember here,
26:56
Speaker 10: you know, he's innocent until proven guilty, and that's not nothing.
27:00
Speaker 10: This applies regardless of how bad we think the crime is.
27:04
Speaker 10: And just because he called that, I mean to your
27:06
Speaker 10: point where you said earlier. Arson has to be intentional,
27:11
Speaker 10: it has to be malicious. The fact that he called
27:14
Speaker 10: so many times his defense attorney, I am sure will
27:18
Speaker 10: argue that if they can, if they're even going to
27:21
Speaker 10: concede that he lit the fire, it was accidental, and
27:25
Speaker 10: that is the evidence of him trying to call so
27:29
Speaker 10: many times.
27:29
Speaker 12: Was him trying to.
27:30
Speaker 1: Get the fire stopped.
27:33
Speaker 10: Not showing guilt but actually showing his innocence.
27:37
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Stephanie Leidecker joining us. She and her boy
27:44
Speaker 1: were evacuated after the fire threatened their lives. Did you
27:51
Speaker 1: know in between calling nine one one he was video
27:56
Speaker 1: he was leaving, He was leaving the scene. Then he
27:59
Speaker 1: sees fire trucks coming, went oh, I want to video that.
28:03
Speaker 1: He turns around, follows the fire trucks and comes back
28:06
Speaker 1: and videos them risking their lives to fight the fire.
28:11
Speaker 1: So I don't know if I can add a felon
28:13
Speaker 1: account of PERV. But you're leaving the scene of the
28:17
Speaker 1: fire you allegedly started, but you see, oh, here come
28:21
Speaker 1: guys and women. I am about to risk their lives.
28:24
Speaker 1: One may die. I better get that on video, and
28:27
Speaker 1: goes back. While all this is happening, people have been evacuated,
28:33
Speaker 1: they're dying, and he's videoing it. They don't bother you
28:37
Speaker 1: because it bothers me.
28:39
Speaker 5: Yeah, it bothers me a lot.
28:40
Speaker 3: Imagine what kind of a sicko would actually set a
28:42
Speaker 3: fire intentionally, if in fact, this is what he did allegedly,
28:46
Speaker 3: allegedly allegedly then to offer to help firefighters, to help
28:51
Speaker 3: right the blaze that he potentially started for himself.
28:54
Speaker 5: Is this an idea that he'll be a hero?
28:56
Speaker 3: Will he be the guy that is now stunningly relevant
29:00
Speaker 3: because he's destroyed so many lives.
29:02
Speaker 5: I personally would like him to come talk to you
29:04
Speaker 5: about it. I'll hide behind you with backup.
29:06
Speaker 3: But if this is true, it is so devastating that
29:10
Speaker 3: one person could do this to so many, You.
29:13
Speaker 1: Know, Stephanie, he just brought up the idea. Did he
29:16
Speaker 1: want to pretend he was the hero? Let's analyze his acts.
29:20
Speaker 1: So he goes to the scene before the fire starts.
29:24
Speaker 1: He's there before the fire starts, the fire starts, he
29:29
Speaker 1: tries to call nine one one, then he leaves. He
29:34
Speaker 1: then sees firetrucks coming and decides, I'm not leaving. I'm
29:38
Speaker 1: gonna go video them while they fight. The blaze, and
29:41
Speaker 1: he stays there and takes video as his rap song
29:47
Speaker 1: plays over and over, and he can see in the
29:51
Speaker 1: video a guy starting fires. And we've heard from Shannon
29:55
Speaker 1: Butler about how distraught he was he had no one
29:58
Speaker 1: to hang out with.
29:59
Speaker 3: On New Year's Really, whoa I mean tell that to
30:03
Speaker 3: everybody who's lost absolutely everything and also the loss of life.
30:07
Speaker 5: It's unimaginable.
30:08
Speaker 3: And this guy got dumped by his girlfriend and suddenly
30:11
Speaker 3: that's enough. He was feeling lost in the sauce about
30:14
Speaker 3: what life was meant for him.
30:16
Speaker 5: He had a job. To your point, he had EarPods.
30:19
Speaker 3: If in fact this is true, and Amily goes to
30:22
Speaker 3: show that we are that disconnected that on New Year's Day,
30:26
Speaker 3: the start of a fresh year, this person decides that
30:29
Speaker 3: he's going to take matters into his own hands and
30:32
Speaker 3: have some dystopian photo of Look at these videos right now.
30:36
Speaker 3: The destruction is unimaginable. It's a town that's been completely
30:40
Speaker 3: wiped off the mat It's literally just chimneys and abandoned cars,
30:45
Speaker 3: and you know, the ripple effect is real. Everyone is
30:47
Speaker 3: still traumatized by the event. I can't tell you how
30:50
Speaker 3: many neighbors and friends I speak to that are just
30:54
Speaker 3: lost because there's nowhere to go, there's no money to
30:57
Speaker 3: start over. So if you're lucky enough and listen, I'm
31:00
Speaker 3: one of them that was like, I'm out, there's a
31:03
Speaker 3: new life someplace else because I'm too scared to look
31:06
Speaker 3: over my shoulder at this point. But imagine those who
31:09
Speaker 3: have lost absolutely everything. Their life is an ash and
31:12
Speaker 3: they have to now stay and figure out how to
31:15
Speaker 3: push on in this town that is now still very
31:19
Speaker 3: far away from being in habitable.
31:25
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The jury deliberating the fate
31:34
Speaker 1: of a man charged in starting the Palisades Fire, one
31:38
Speaker 1: of the most destructive wildfires ever in California history. Deadlocks,
31:46
Speaker 1: they hang, telling the judge they just couldn't decide. The
31:52
Speaker 1: former Uber driver on trial for the crime, and a
31:55
Speaker 1: former Pacific Palisades resident, is accused of starting the lock
32:00
Speaker 1: coming fire on New Year's Eve. The fire continued to
32:04
Speaker 1: smolder underground for about a week, even after LA firefighters
32:10
Speaker 1: thought it had been put out, but the flames reignited,
32:16
Speaker 1: erupting in the deadly fatal Palisades Fire, killing twelve and
32:23
Speaker 1: destroying thousands of homes. Now, prosecutors at trial argued the
32:29
Speaker 1: prop deliberately set the fire, claiming he grew angry and
32:33
Speaker 1: resentful of the wealthy residence, and he viewed Pacific Palisades,
32:38
Speaker 1: where a lot of Hollywood stars live, as a symbol
32:42
Speaker 1: of his own frustration. Oh my Stars deadlock With facts.
32:50
Speaker 8: Like these, render Neeck gives conflicting statements about whether he
32:54
Speaker 8: smoked near the trail that night and where he was
32:57
Speaker 8: when he called. Renderneck claims he was at the bottom
33:00
Speaker 8: of the trail, but location data shows while speaking with
33:03
Speaker 8: nine one one he's just thirty feet from the fire's origin.
33:07
Speaker 4: He lied about where he was when he first saw
33:10
Speaker 4: the Lockman fire, claiming he was near the bottom of
33:13
Speaker 4: a hiking trail. Geolocation data for the nine to one
33:16
Speaker 4: one calls showed that he was standing above the fire
33:19
Speaker 4: and in clearing, merely thirty feet from the blaze as
33:22
Speaker 4: it rapidly.
33:23
Speaker 1: Grew, asking jat GPT, is it my fault if I
33:28
Speaker 1: started a fire with a cigarette? Straight out to Moses
33:31
Speaker 1: Castillo joining me, private investigator for the Jrdoulian Law Group,
33:36
Speaker 1: former supervising detective with the LAPD and you can find
33:41
Speaker 1: him at Moses Castillo Investigations dot com. Really starting a fire?
33:47
Speaker 1: Is it my fault? If I killed twelve people with
33:50
Speaker 1: a cigarette, started a fire, then I ran from the scene.
33:52
Speaker 1: Then I decided to video the cops and the firefighters
33:55
Speaker 1: because I thought maybe one of them would die. I mean,
33:58
Speaker 1: what is a jury going to be of this? Do
34:01
Speaker 1: you believe that's going to be the disfense? Moses Castillo,
34:04
Speaker 1: I accidentally started a fire with a cigarette with all
34:08
Speaker 1: this other extrinsic, circumstantial evidence.
34:11
Speaker 13: Okay, Naty, this is no fireworks, no lighting, no power lines,
34:14
Speaker 13: just one man with one lighter and a trail of
34:16
Speaker 13: digital break comes. He filmed this fire, he chased the
34:20
Speaker 13: fire trucks, and he I saii be liable. That's not remorse,
34:24
Speaker 13: that's rehearsal.
34:25
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that, Moses Castillo?
34:27
Speaker 13: I mean that he pre planned this, He intended to
34:29
Speaker 13: do this. What I do believe it's going to be
34:32
Speaker 13: very challenging for the government to prove their case is
34:37
Speaker 13: the fact that the fire department, they thought they put
34:41
Speaker 13: this fire out, and seven six or seven days later
34:44
Speaker 13: the wind reignited. I think that's going to be a
34:47
Speaker 13: bigger issue for the government's case.
34:49
Speaker 1: So let me give you a comparison Moses Castello, I
34:54
Speaker 1: shoot you in the leg. I aim for your heart,
34:58
Speaker 1: but I get your leg and you linger in the
35:01
Speaker 1: hospital for six days. And then the gunshot went into
35:05
Speaker 1: your leg causes a pulmonary analysm, and it goes to
35:08
Speaker 1: your brain and you die. So what, I'm not going
35:10
Speaker 1: to be charged with murder? Think about it.
35:14
Speaker 13: Just answer well, you bring a very good point, and
35:16
Speaker 13: yes that should be charged for murderer because it was
35:19
Speaker 13: a mean But in any event here I do believe
35:22
Speaker 13: that there are enough evidence, circumstantial evidence and digital footprints
35:26
Speaker 13: that can't get him convicted. I'm just saying that defense
35:29
Speaker 13: is going to argue, you know, if the fire department
35:31
Speaker 13: would have done their job properly, this would have happened.
35:34
Speaker 13: I think it's going to be a defense out on
35:36
Speaker 13: buy it. I think he definitely has the profile of
35:42
Speaker 13: somebody who would do something like this, and this is
35:44
Speaker 13: just this should be treated as a violent crime, not
35:48
Speaker 13: just bars him by itself.
35:50
Speaker 1: Okay. I want to get back to what Moses Castillo,
35:53
Speaker 1: who is a private eye there in California, is saying.
35:56
Speaker 1: Listen to what the US attorney said.
35:58
Speaker 4: Although firefighters suppressed them, the fire continued to smolder and
36:03
Speaker 4: burn underground within the root structure of the dense vegetation.
36:10
Speaker 4: So that fire started on January first, and it smoldered
36:14
Speaker 4: underground for about a week until on January seventh, heavy
36:18
Speaker 4: winds caused this underground fire to surface and spread above ground,
36:25
Speaker 4: causing what became known as the Pali States fired, one
36:29
Speaker 4: of the most destructive wildfires in Los Angeles City history.
36:33
Speaker 1: Joining us Nicole Brock. She is a veteran firefighter and
36:37
Speaker 1: e mt Areson expert of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Nicole brought
36:41
Speaker 1: what is a hold over fire?
36:43
Speaker 14: Well, Hollover fires, Nancy, are firefighters worst nightmares. They are
36:48
Speaker 14: the fires that we believe that they have been out.
36:50
Speaker 14: We've extinguished the fire. They have a way of rekindling,
36:54
Speaker 14: and a lot of jurisdictions, particularly like mine, we call
36:57
Speaker 14: them rekindle fires.
36:59
Speaker 1: Nicole Brock. The theory is, according to the defense, this
37:02
Speaker 1: was an accidental fire started by a cigarette. How do
37:05
Speaker 1: you prove arson?
37:07
Speaker 14: So again, arsen's are difficult to prove, and to link
37:10
Speaker 14: it back to one cigarette is going to be hard.
37:14
Speaker 14: The big overwhelming thing with looking for arson in this
37:18
Speaker 14: particular situation is the ignition piece. How many ignition points.
37:22
Speaker 14: The things that they're going to be looking.
37:23
Speaker 1: For are fuel.
37:25
Speaker 12: Was there fuel that was used?
37:27
Speaker 14: And that's easy to detect too, because you'll see a
37:29
Speaker 14: different charring that comes differently than you will see you
37:33
Speaker 14: with something that just started with natural vegetation.
37:37
Speaker 1: I believe that.
37:38
Speaker 14: Unfortunately, with this particular suspect, I think he's going to
37:43
Speaker 14: have a hard time with trying to prove his case
37:47
Speaker 14: and that he used a cigarette or he accidentally started
37:52
Speaker 14: a cigarette. All of his actions point back to Arson activity.
37:57
Speaker 1: Arson.
37:57
Speaker 14: These are things that Arson.
37:59
Speaker 1: Is doue out to a special guest joining us, Alexandra
38:03
Speaker 1: Fire for her home destroyed in the Palisades fire. Alexandra,
38:09
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
38:11
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me. I appreciate your coverage.
38:14
Speaker 1: Alexandra. What happened that day?
38:16
Speaker 15: I've been listening to you guys discussing just the fire
38:21
Speaker 15: and the seven day gap.
38:23
Speaker 6: So in the morning, just before lunchtime around eleven those
38:28
Speaker 6: of us.
38:28
Speaker 15: I live on a bluff below where the fire started,
38:31
Speaker 15: and if you looked up to the top of the
38:34
Speaker 15: crest of the hills that were behind us, you could
38:36
Speaker 15: see smoke and fire in our neighborhood is not uncommon.
38:42
Speaker 15: We've had a lot of brush fires. This felt different.
38:46
Speaker 15: And the thing is is from that fire, from the
38:48
Speaker 15: first that they put out, there had been warnings all
38:51
Speaker 15: week that we were going to have I mean, the
38:53
Speaker 15: Santa Ana wins are a.
38:54
Speaker 6: Thing we know about them. We were being warned.
38:57
Speaker 15: So I mean, if in facts, Arson and I kind
39:01
Speaker 15: of agree with the firefighter who said seven days is
39:03
Speaker 15: a long time for a reignition of a fire. But
39:06
Speaker 15: the winds were horrible even in the earlier part of
39:10
Speaker 15: the day, and the fire started at around eleven and change,
39:15
Speaker 15: and by the late afternoon, I mean, it was everywhere.
39:19
Speaker 15: So I left fairly early because I've grown up there,
39:23
Speaker 15: I know our community, and the fire just felt different
39:26
Speaker 15: this time, and that you're now seeing images of what
39:30
Speaker 15: remained of my home and my entire neighborhood. I mean
39:33
Speaker 15: every house was gone by the evening, by ten or
39:36
Speaker 15: eleven at night.
39:37
Speaker 1: Alexandra, what did you mean when you said this felt different?
39:43
Speaker 15: Something about the speed when I walked outside and my
39:47
Speaker 15: driveway sort of if you looked north, you could see
39:51
Speaker 15: the mountains fairly clearly, and you could see the movement
39:54
Speaker 15: of the fire coming down the hill and it was
39:57
Speaker 15: already windy.
39:58
Speaker 6: It just had their It was just a feeling of
40:02
Speaker 6: a greater threat. And people usually with us, we have
40:05
Speaker 6: a fire warning.
40:07
Speaker 15: We all tend to evacuate if we know there's a
40:09
Speaker 15: brush fire. People were running around in our you know,
40:13
Speaker 15: in their putting their animals in their car, and I
40:16
Speaker 15: just looked around and it just felt different. It felt
40:20
Speaker 15: a little more ominous.
40:23
Speaker 6: The smoke was darker. It just, I don't know. I
40:26
Speaker 6: think growing up there, you just know it was.
40:29
Speaker 15: I knew it when I was leaving that the devastation
40:32
Speaker 15: was going to be more than we had seen. I
40:33
Speaker 15: certainly didn't think this would happen, but it just the
40:36
Speaker 15: winds were already strong, and usually the winds pick up
40:39
Speaker 15: at night, and it was already windy by midday.
40:42
Speaker 6: So I just, I don't know.
40:44
Speaker 15: I think those of us who lived there, we just
40:46
Speaker 15: had a feeling that it knew.
40:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining a psychoanalyst in this jurisdiction,
40:52
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, I think it's instinct. For instance, when you
40:55
Speaker 1: are driving down the inner site less seeing, you look
40:58
Speaker 1: over there and you see a brush fire and you're
41:01
Speaker 1: not afraid you're not. It doesn't put you in fear,
41:06
Speaker 1: as opposed to what Alexandra is saying. She knew in
41:10
Speaker 1: her bones this was different and immediately started to evacuate.
41:15
Speaker 1: It was just a feeling.
41:17
Speaker 7: It was instinct, Nancy. It's a survival instinct, you know.
41:19
Speaker 7: I was in my Santa Barbara home, which is about
41:21
Speaker 7: an hour and a half north of the Pacific Palisades,
41:25
Speaker 7: and I felt it psychologically up here. The winds were
41:29
Speaker 7: so horrendous. I was afraid they were going to blow
41:32
Speaker 7: the roof off of my house. I had a very
41:35
Speaker 7: eerie feeling. And then I turned on the news and
41:37
Speaker 7: I heard about the Palisades and this purp, this alleged purp.
41:41
Speaker 12: Nancy.
41:41
Speaker 7: You know what I think is so terrifying about this
41:46
Speaker 7: is that he did rehearse. Like Moses said, I think
41:49
Speaker 7: this was sexually exciting to him. Pyromania is a compulsion,
41:54
Speaker 7: just like compulsive masturbating, compulsive gambling, compulsive binging, and purging.
42:00
Speaker 7: Often there's a build up of feelings that the perpetrator
42:03
Speaker 7: cannot self regulate, and the only way to neutralize the
42:08
Speaker 7: feeling is to engage in the act, and in this case,
42:11
Speaker 7: it is Pyromania.
42:13
Speaker 1: Alexandra Thig for joining us who lost her home. What happened?
42:19
Speaker 1: You see the fire, You realize people are evacuating. You
42:23
Speaker 1: know in your bones I could die, My family could die.
42:28
Speaker 1: What did you do well?
42:30
Speaker 15: I was My biggest regret is I just left. I
42:34
Speaker 15: had more time than I realized. But listening to you,
42:37
Speaker 15: I think you're right. I am a pretty strong willed person.
42:40
Speaker 15: I trust my instincts. I did feel that it was
42:45
Speaker 15: not going to end well, and we had My daughter
42:49
Speaker 15: had bunny rabbits.
42:50
Speaker 6: I put them in my car and I just drove away.
42:54
Speaker 15: But I also had friends who lived, so there are
42:57
Speaker 15: a lot of different pockets of the Palisades. For those
42:59
Speaker 15: people who don't know the Palisades, everybody thinks it's just
43:01
Speaker 15: a small, little niche neighborhood in La, it's pretty vast
43:04
Speaker 15: and there are different neighborhoods, and.
43:07
Speaker 6: Some people live up on the hill.
43:08
Speaker 15: One of my friends who lived up on the hill
43:11
Speaker 15: called me as she was driving down the hill in
43:13
Speaker 15: her car caught fire. So I didn't want to wait,
43:17
Speaker 15: but I because I didn't wait, I lost all of
43:21
Speaker 15: my belongings.
43:21
Speaker 6: I had no time. I just put our animals in
43:23
Speaker 6: the car and I drove.
43:25
Speaker 15: Away, and my assistant who worked for me was stuck
43:29
Speaker 15: in traffic and couldn't get out. So, I mean, I
43:32
Speaker 15: feel like it was about for me. I just felt
43:36
Speaker 15: it was more important that I got out. Then I
43:38
Speaker 15: got my things out, and so everything perished except for
43:43
Speaker 15: our animals. Other people waited a little bit longer and
43:46
Speaker 15: were able to get some of their personal belongings out,
43:48
Speaker 15: but you know, their lives.
43:51
Speaker 6: Were at risk. I just felt like it was more
43:53
Speaker 6: important to leave.
43:54
Speaker 1: Doctor Kimmel Crown's joining US Chief Medical Exander Tarret County
43:58
Speaker 1: fort Worth, Stained to a life. You're Brunette School of
44:01
Speaker 1: Medicine at TCU and star of a hit new podcast,
44:05
Speaker 1: Mayhem in the Morgue. Dodgor Crowns, in my experience of
44:10
Speaker 1: investigating and prosecuting arsons, which are a highly technical case
44:14
Speaker 1: to prosecute, you have to have a certain expertise to
44:17
Speaker 1: do that. Typically victims dye in three ways. They either suffocate,
44:23
Speaker 1: they actually burn to death, or an object falls on
44:29
Speaker 1: them and they die because of blunt force trauma. Doctor
44:33
Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns. People that die a smoke inhalation, they live
44:39
Speaker 1: for a period of time they know they're dying. Doctor Crowns, Yes,
44:44
Speaker 1: that's correct.
44:45
Speaker 16: When the smoke is building up, as many of the
44:48
Speaker 16: people have testified to today, that your eyes burn, your
44:52
Speaker 16: throat's burning, you're starting to give mucius production, you're coughing,
44:55
Speaker 16: you're hacking, you're gagging, and as you're breathing in this smoke,
45:00
Speaker 16: you're also breathing in carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide is
45:05
Speaker 16: causing you your body to displace oxygen and now you're
45:09
Speaker 16: no longer getting proper oxygen to your tissues, and eventually
45:13
Speaker 16: you'll not get enough oxygen because the carbon monoxide and
45:17
Speaker 16: your tissues will die, and then you die. And this
45:20
Speaker 16: takes place over several minutes to even a half hour
45:24
Speaker 16: or so, depending on how high the smoke is, how
45:27
Speaker 16: much carbon monoxide there is. So yes, you're very aware
45:30
Speaker 16: of what's going on during that time period, trying to
45:33
Speaker 16: get out, trying to escape, coughing, you know, gagging or whatever,
45:37
Speaker 16: but you can't get out, and then you're correct. The
45:40
Speaker 16: other ones are things collapse fall on you and pin
45:43
Speaker 16: you and then you burn to that, or you just
45:45
Speaker 16: get surrounded by the fire and you burn from that
45:48
Speaker 16: as well, and then the fire itself burning you is
45:51
Speaker 16: extreme pain, and you're in pain for several seconds to
45:54
Speaker 16: a few minutes until you finally succumb to shock and
45:57
Speaker 16: pass out.
45:58
Speaker 1: Alexander, your higher joining us who lost her entire home
46:03
Speaker 1: in the Palisades fire. That could have been you. What
46:08
Speaker 1: doctor Kendall Crown's just described, I hope you never feel
46:13
Speaker 1: remorse about not getting your things.
46:16
Speaker 6: Makes me so emotional, Nancy.
46:17
Speaker 15: But here's what a lot of people don't say, and
46:20
Speaker 15: I said this earlier on when this happened.
46:22
Speaker 6: Is that this happened in the day.
46:25
Speaker 15: If this had happened at night and the fire had
46:29
Speaker 15: started at six pm, not eleven am, think about how
46:33
Speaker 15: many people have no landlines, take sleeping pills, don't check,
46:39
Speaker 15: turn their cell phones off at night. I mean, of course,
46:43
Speaker 15: any loss of life, nobody should have died in this fire,
46:46
Speaker 15: but imagine if it had happened at night, and if
46:49
Speaker 15: it had burned and escalated in the middle of the night.
46:52
Speaker 15: I think about it constantly. I'm very grateful that I don't.
46:56
Speaker 15: I'm here and that I can, you know, have time
47:00
Speaker 15: with my family following this, and the things don't matter.
47:03
Speaker 6: You're right, but it's still it doesn't leave your hat.
47:08
Speaker 1: The defense argued there is no direct physical evidence tying
47:14
Speaker 1: the defendant to the fire, and claim the prosecution's case
47:17
Speaker 1: relies only on circumstantial evidence. Did he not read the law.
47:21
Speaker 1: It is the black and white letter of the law
47:24
Speaker 1: that circumstantial evidence is as powerful as direct evidence with
47:29
Speaker 1: the same probative weight.
47:32
Speaker 17: The jury's inability to reach a decision on any of
47:35
Speaker 17: the three charges led a federal judge to declare a mistrial.
47:39
Speaker 17: The jury foreman said, after more than thirteen hours of deliberation,
47:42
Speaker 17: the jury was split ten in favor of not guilty,
47:46
Speaker 17: two in favor of guilty. US District Judge and Huang
47:51
Speaker 17: pulled the panel, asking if more deliberations could thall the deadlock.
47:55
Speaker 17: When each juror answered no, she declared a mistrial, setting
47:59
Speaker 17: the stage for a retrial starting from scratch. The prosecutor says,
48:03
Speaker 17: the District Attorney's office fully intends to retry the case.
48:08
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Gray's crime story is
48:12
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye Friend.