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Be Curious: Exploring Ocean and Atmosphere Questions · How To Protect The Ocean

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Do you have questions about the ocean? Or maybe about our climate or
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atmosphere? Maybe you want to know, do megalodons still
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exist? Or what's up with climate change? Is it actually real?
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or even mermaids. Are they real? These are questions that
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are all answered in the new book, Megalodons, Mermaids, and
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Climate Change. There are more questions because they answer questions for
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the ocean and atmosphere. These are common questions and maybe some
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questions that are not so common that are here to help you
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and we have the authors Ellen Prager and Dave
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Jones on the podcast for today to help you
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answer those questions and discuss their book where they just help you know about
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common questions around the ocean and atmosphere. So I can't wait to hear from them. Let's
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start the show. Hey
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everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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I'm your host Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how
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you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by
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taking action. Today is a very interesting day because
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today we're going to be talking about questions, questions around the ocean and
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atmosphere, questions that I feel people ask all the
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time, either myself, Dave Jones, who's on the podcast today as
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a guest, and Ellen Prager, who's also on a podcast today, to
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talk about their new book that answer the questions that you may have or
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that other people may have, or maybe you don't even think you have these questions, but you
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need to know about them, or you want to know about them once you figure that out. And
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these are fun questions. Some of them are a little more serious. Some of them
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are fun. They have some snarky remarks to them. They have some
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fun remarks to them. They have some very serious remarks to them. But they're questions that
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I feel like everybody should know about. And it's very difficult to
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kind of do a Google search on them, because as we discussed in the interview, which
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you'll hear in a second, you just don't know, you know,
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what information you're getting, if the right question is being answered
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the proper way, or if it's being influenced by somebody or not. And
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what I love about this book is that Ellen and Dave have a huge
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network of meteorologists, scientists, marine
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biologists, marine conservationists, oceanographers to
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help answer those questions if they don't know it or even if they do but
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they want to know the updated information because all this information is changing as
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research goes on and on and on. They have you
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know decades of experience, and they wanted to help out
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and provide a book That's a resource for you whether you're
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12 years old whether you're 120 years old it does not matter They're
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here to help you out, and I just can't wait for you
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to listen to this interview So let's listen to the interview with Ellen Prager
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and Dave Jones on Megalodons mermaids and
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climate change answers to your ocean and atmosphere questions
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Enjoy the interview, and I will talk to you after Hey, Alan. Hey,
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Dave. Welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are
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you ready to talk about really ocean literature, which I'm really excited
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We're ready. Right on. I love it. I love
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this energy. This is going to be a lot of fun. Alan,
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this is a returning guest spot for you. I think you were like
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my second or third guest on the podcast. It was one of my first. So
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hopefully I'm a lot better interviewer now than I was back back almost 10 years ago.
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But it's so much fun to be able to have you back. And Dave, welcome. This is
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the first time you're on the podcast, hopefully not the last. And we're going to
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be talking about a new book that you have coming out in
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October. It's called Megalodons, Mermaids, and Climate Change,
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Ocean and Atmosphere Questions. I'm
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excited because I feel like this is a book that is almost perfect
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timing just in general. There's a lot of questions out there
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and sometimes the answers are not exactly what you'd expect or
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really hard to believe depending on what sites you're looking at or
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where you're trying to find those resources. So it's nice to be able to have a book
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like this in the way it's presented and everything. I think it's going to be really great. So
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we're going to get into that. But before we do, let's just get reacquainted
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and acquainted with you, Dave, and reacquainted with you, Ellen. Ellen, why don't you just kind of
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Well, thank you so much for having us. Of course. I am Ellen Prager.
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I am a marine scientist by training, but
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I've had all these amazing jobs. Maybe some
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would say adventures in ocean science from
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teaching oceanography on shore for six weeks to
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out at sea for six weeks with Sea Education Association. I
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ran a marine lab. in a very remote island in the Bahamas.
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I have all sorts of stories because that could be a whole other podcast. I
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worked for the U.S. Geological Survey doing research. I
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was the assistant dean at the University of Miami Rosensteil School. Was
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the chief scientist for the world's only undersea research station. Actually
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lived twice underwater for two weeks. But
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what I discovered was I have this real passion for how
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do we make science entertaining and understandable for
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people of all ages who aren't necessarily scientists. Oh,
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and I almost forgot. This is since my last, oh,
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this is important. Since the last I was on with you, probably my
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claim to fame is I was a consultant on
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Oh, wow. That
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is cool! I did not know that. Oh, wow.
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So with this whole idea of communications, I started writing books. I
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started writing popular science books and children's books. I wrote some eco-adventure
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novels. And so it's really been about how do we make
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science entertaining, understandable, and usable
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She works a lot, I'm sure. That I know.
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I can see it in the updates. I've been following you for a while and
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just seeing what you're being up to. I didn't know about the Moana thing. We're going to ask
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some questions about that and how that works. I think that's really
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cool to be able to do that and just numerous
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speaking opportunities and engagements and being able to engage
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with people, like you said, who are non-scientists I feel is so important.
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I think it's one of the the front lines of conservation that we never really think about
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when we think about becoming marine biologists and marine conservationists. So
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definitely appreciate the work you do and have been doing and continue to
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do on this. We really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Dave,
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let's get to know you a little bit. Can you just let us know who you are and what
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Sure. Yeah, I'm Dave Jones. I'm the founder and CEO of
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Storm Center Communications, and I'm going to have to step out of the
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ocean just for a little bit, but I'll maintain the vapor part. I'm
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a meteorologist, and so we do
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a lot of forecasting of the atmosphere, right? So in my
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past, included working at NASA Goddard Space
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Flight Center and their global modeling and simulation division when
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I was in college and then a little bit after that. Then I worked for
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a computer weather graphics company and I helped design
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computer weather graphics systems that broadcast meteorologists would
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use around the country. and around the world. So I would travel
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to TV stations around the country and train those
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broadcast Mets how to put together their forecasts and how to
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put together graphics for their shows. And then I
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helped a company start up in the Pacific Northwest forecasting winds
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for windsurfers. That was pretty awesome. And
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then I ended up working for NBC4 in
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Washington, D.C. I was a broadcast meteorologist myself
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for About 10 years in Washington, and
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that was really the source of a lot of our questions, I
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think, that we put in the book. Right. And
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so that's very interesting. And then in 2000, I
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left NBC and started my own company. called
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Storm Center Communications, and that's what we're doing today, working
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on a lot of technology to help people share data, access
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data, and share it amongst other computers in
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a real-time collaborative environment. So we
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can all be on the same map looking at the same data, and
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we can help people understand the value of data
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You said something at the end that was really important is that sharing of data. So before,
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was it just like, you know, different regions had their own silos in
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terms of they would collect the data, they would present it in their own kind
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of way. And then another, like the Southwest region, the Northwest region
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Yeah, Andrew, you have it. You know, it's a silo is the,
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is the key word there. And that's the way that many agencies work
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and organizations where they cure it, collect and curate their
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own data. And it's very difficult for anyone else
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in any other science, or if you don't know, because
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you don't know a specific person, how to access the
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data, it's very difficult. And that's why we
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developed what we call GeoCollaborate, so we can access
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disparate data sets and bring them together into
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one map so everybody can see it in a real-time collaborative
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Yeah, and even, like, I would imagine the way it's displayed before,
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when they're in the silos, probably displayed differently from region to region. Now
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it's all the same. So it makes it just uniform, really
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easy to make, you know, seeing the connections
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between the regions. Obviously, you know, the weather doesn't stop
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at borders or the weather doesn't stop within regions. So you're probably seeing a
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lot more, and it's easier for not only meteorologists, but also just
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Yeah, and it turns out that the weather has a little bit to do with the
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Just a little bit. In
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the beginning of the book that we're going to talk about, we have a graphic
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of us having an arm wrestling and over my head I have a thought bubble says
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ocean and Dave over here says one says atmosphere. So we're, you
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And I'm sweating for some reason while I'm arm
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I love it. Well, you know, it's really interesting, too, because, you know, growing
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up, you know, wanting to be in marine biology, you start, as you learn, you
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know, both fields, oceans, you have to learn climate. And when you
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learn climate, you have to learn oceans. Obviously, they're, as we mentioned, they're
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very, very connected. But, you know, what's interesting is both of
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you have had such a You
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walk that line of science and data, but
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you also walk the line of presenting it in front of people and taking
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that complex information and being like, here you go, this
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is what's happening. We'll start with you, Ellen. How did
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you develop that skill set? to
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take the data, you know, talk about even coral reefs, right? Like,
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you know, you headed a research station, you know,
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you did a lot with coral reefs, you knew a lot of information. How
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do you learn that skill set to present it to people of
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So, I think there's two things. One, I think
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you have a passion for it, an interest in doing it, and you, for
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me, and, you know, when I started doing a lot of
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public speaking and I Went on air to become sort
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of an on-air expert and I've been on CNN and NBC and
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all those. I didn't train for that. But
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what I would do is I would learn from my mistakes. And I
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made many to begin. But I think you have to pay attention.
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Like, oh, my audience, their eyes are glazing over. They have no
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idea. And then I would change what I was saying. And so I
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had a passion for doing it. It turns out I think I have an
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inherent maybe strength because I really like people. I like interacting with
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people. I like hearing what they have to say and really listening to
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them. And so my skills have evolved over
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time, just because I've seen what works, what doesn't work. And
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I'm really trying to stay aware of that. If I'm talking to an audience and
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I've lost them, I'm like, oh, I gotta shift gears. So it's not,
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you know, you can have some natural talent for it. But
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you have to learn. I learned a lot. Oh my gosh, I look back at
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my first appearances on television and I'm like, oh. But I
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have learned a ton by doing it and now I love it. But
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it's, you know, also as a scientist at the beginning I was so nervous
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because I was, I have to get every single technical detail right.
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And when I realized that the people I was talking to, I didn't have
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to get those technical details exact. They
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could be right, but maybe a little bit broader, maybe not
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exact. And it was much easier. So I don't know, Dave, how about
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Yeah. No, I think that that's right. But although when you're a
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meteorologist, everybody thinks that you get paid for being right 50 percent
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So I was going to mention that. I was like, you're probably in
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the summer. You're probably the most like most loved person ever.
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And then in the winter and you're like, no. And if you get the weather wrong or the
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weather changes, they're like, oh, we hate this guy. Like, why would
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Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And Lord help you if you get a
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Oh, gosh. Yes. Because
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that's going to change anything, right? Yeah. But
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it's interesting, too, because growing up as
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a marine, wanting to be a meteorologist, well, I
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can't even say it, weather person, let's just
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say. What is your thought process wanting to be in
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that field? Is it you want to be in front of a camera and
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talking about the weather? Or you want to be studying at NASA, which you've
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That's a great question. Because, you know, my first, my
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first experience with weather was very electrifying. I
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was six years old, I was looking out my bedroom window,
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and I saw lightning strike a tree across the street. Oh,
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wow. And then I saw ball lightning, which is
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a ball of energy, right out across the
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street, sort of towards my house. And I was just
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you know, six years old, I was glued to it. And and
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then all of a sudden it just disappeared in midair and went away.
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And so that was it. That's all from I was six
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years old till today. It's meteorology all the way. So that's
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Now, going from like presenting in front of people to doing like
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research on on sort of the climate. How
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did you sort of manage that? Like you obviously started off at NASA doing
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doing some research areas and then going into broadcasting.
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It was really very, very interesting. I was very fortunate when
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I was in college. And maybe we'll talk about this a little bit about, you
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know, asking questions and being curious about things. When
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I was at University of Maryland, there was a classmate
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of mine in my cloud physics class. Oh,
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boy. And he said to me, he said, I
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was working at NASA at the time, and
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I was in class, and he said, hey, have you ever thought about doing TV? I
15:19
intern over at NBC4. And
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he said, do you ever think about television? I said, no, not
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really. And so he said, well, you ought to come over, you
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know, and just see what I do. So, you know, I was
15:33
doing, supporting a research scientist at NASA. And
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then I went over to experience NBC, And
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it's a totally different pace, right? I mean, deadlines all
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the time. You have to be on at 5.15 and
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6.15 and all that stuff. So I wasn't on the air then, I was just creating graphics.
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But the pressure is there to create those graphics to be
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ready for the chief meteorologist at that time to go on the
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air. And so I just fell in love with,
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I love doing supporting research at NASA, but I
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love the fast paceness of news. And
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so I started to bring some things from NASA over
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to NBC, like 3D hurricane visualizations. And
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the meteorologists would put them on the air. And all of
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a sudden, the researcher at NASA got more funding. So
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it's like, wow, this is pretty cool. So, you
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know, it's that research to operations transition that
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That's really cool. I love that. I love that aspect. Now,
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you know, over your both of you over over your times, like your career
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periods, we've seen a drastic change in our climate. You
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know, we've been predicting it. You both have probably been predicting it
16:48
for a while. Hopefully we would never going to see it in our lifetimes. But
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obviously, it's here we see a lot of consequences due to
16:54
climate change. Dave, we'll start with you. From
16:58
your perspective, did you get a lot, like, were you openly
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talking about climate change? Maybe not on
17:05
NBC4, like during your broadcast, but was that a
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topic of conversation during your time, throughout your career? And
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Yeah, no, thanks for that question. I think I
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was exposed to more climate type data
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as I worked at NASA. And so I almost feel
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like I grew up at a time when the
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discoveries were just happening. And so while
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I wasn't a scientist, I was, you know, did my undergraduate work,
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but I wasn't a PhD. like some people. And
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so, you know, I just would sit there and observe and
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listen to the scientists talk. And, and so
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I knew there was something going on. And then of course, when
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I got in through college, and then I started doing other
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work with, you know, weather graphic systems and stuff
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and training broadcast meteorologists, I would end up teaching
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them maybe how to integrate some climate information into
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their broadcasts. Not formally, but just saying, hey, you
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know, I mean, you might want to compare how many record highs we've been
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having with how many we had 10 years ago, you know, and
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giving them those kinds of ideas that they would take and run with.
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Love that. I love that. Now, Ellen, you've talked
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to a lot of people over your time being a
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science communicator and a marine science communicator. How
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has your message of climate change changed over
18:36
Well, that's again, that's a tough but good question. So,
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you know, I, when I was doing research, and in some of the
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labs that I worked in, I was very heavily involved in coral reefs. And
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I'm not sure, well, I shouldn't say this anymore, I would have
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said, I'm not sure there's anything that's more obvious, the
18:54
impacts of climate change, but that's not true anymore. Now with extreme weather events,
18:58
What we're seeing, it's very obvious, but with coral reefs, I
19:02
very early on saw the impacts of climate change
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and the just extreme consequences
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of prolonged higher water temperatures and
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having big mass coral mortality events. Got to
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the point where it was very hard for me to go diving in
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places where I had spent a lot of time in coral reefs and
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to go diving and just see rubble. And it's still very
19:28
hard for me. I love coral reefs. It's one of
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the things that got me into marine science. In graduate school, I
19:34
worked in coral reefs. And after that, I worked in coral reefs. So
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I will say, for me, at first, I didn't want to
19:43
talk about the extremes, because I thought that was too alarmist. I
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thought, like you said, we probably wouldn't see them in
19:50
our lifetime, and we had some time to change
19:53
our path. But unfortunately, that's not true anymore. And so now I
19:57
am very willing to talk about the extremes
20:00
that we're seeing today and that we don't have any time left. We have to
20:03
make changes now. And so, you know, because
20:07
you used to hear that, oh, that person is being an alarmist. But
20:11
I think people between wildfires, flooding, rapid
20:15
intensification of hurricanes, what's going on with quarries, it's all
20:19
very obvious now, the extreme heat. So don't think
20:22
it's alarmist anymore to say, how big
20:28
And usually scientists are very conservative, right?
20:31
They don't want to be on the right side of the bell curve, you
20:38
And I think in terms of the scientific community, I think you've seen a lot more scientists
20:44
You know, it's not just climate change is real, but it is dire and
20:50
Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely more of that alarming messaging
20:54
coming out from scientists, including myself, because
20:57
we have to, you know, because that's what we're seeing. It's really hard to we
21:00
don't have to predict as much like, oh, it's going to come. It's like the droughts are going to come.
21:04
The wildfires are they're here and they're worse than than ever.
21:07
And I think, you know, one thing that I realized from, I think
21:11
what's happening is people are getting personally touched by it. You
21:14
know, especially here, I mean, all over the world. But if we focus
21:18
on North America, you know, I remember last,
21:22
right before last year, in 2023, I was saying, you know, in Ontario,
21:25
we're pretty good. You know, like, considering all the damage that's
21:29
happened on the West Coast and on the East Coast, like, we're kind of protected a
21:32
little bit. And we would find, of course, lo and behold, I should have knocked on wood
21:35
when I said it. You know, we had the wildfires of
21:39
our northern barrier forest across Canada, and we started to get smoke
21:43
from the north. And not only did we get it, but I mean, we saw
21:46
the images of New York City getting it from northern
21:50
Quebec, and all that smoke coming in. And now we're saying, OK,
21:53
now we're starting to, we can't, there's no denying it now that
21:57
something's happening. But I find now,
22:00
and we'll get into it just, because we're going to talk about the book in just a few seconds, I
22:04
think this is a good segue into it, because you mentioned it on
22:07
the cover, is you have the words climate
22:10
change on there. And sometimes that can be a
22:15
very polarizing phrase to
22:18
give people, is we're going to talk about climate change now. And
22:22
some people are like, oh, no, it doesn't exist. There's still some denial. There's still
22:25
some, oh, well, we've just got to live with it. We've seen the messaging change from
22:29
various influences. But do you find, for
22:33
both of you, and Dave, we can start with you, when you speak to
22:36
people about climate change, do you find that just saying
22:40
those words change the way
22:43
the conversation goes in the first place. Do you ever omit those words
22:46
and just talk about, look, we're seeing flooding, or we're seeing droughts, or
22:53
Yeah, I typically don't, you know, go into a room and say, let's
22:56
talk climate change. But we do occasionally,
23:00
you know, somewhat frequently go into places and listen to
23:04
other people talking. Right. And we do
23:08
something that would be great for everybody to do. And that
23:11
is meet them where they are. So as they
23:14
talk, they might be saying, you know, I, I don't know, I haven't caught anywhere
23:19
near as many fish as I did this time last year. And you know, you
23:22
know, we might say, well, what do you think is causing that? You
23:26
know, what's the what's the problem? I don't know. I mean, the ocean seems
23:29
to be pretty warm. Maybe they don't like warm weather, warm water. And
23:33
so, you know, you can start that conversation. You don't
23:36
really want to start with a kind of polarizing term
23:40
so they think that you're going to be trying to teach them something, but
23:43
just talk to them and ask questions. That's the really key
23:47
thing about this book. And what we try to tell everybody we
23:54
Well, and I think the other part is if we do bring up climate
23:58
change and somebody says, oh, well, you know, I don't really believe that. And
24:01
we say, well, Why not? Why not? And in a very, I
24:04
think it's very important to be respectful and not condescending. And,
24:08
you know, a lot of times we'll hear somebody say something and we're like, well, why do
24:11
you think that? You know, even if it's something we know is wrong on
24:15
the data, we want to understand where did that information
24:19
come from? Why is it that they are thinking that way? And
24:23
so I think it's really important to ask questions and listen
24:26
to other people and just have a respectful conversation. We've had
24:30
several of those with people who, when we first started, were really
24:34
skeptical. And then when, by the end of the conversation, they were like, well, you
24:37
know, I think, you know, maybe, maybe you're right. And
24:41
so, you know, and again, it's also, being
24:45
able to use the right language. We don't have to speak in science jargony
24:48
terms to explain, um, you know, what are people's
24:52
concerns? So all of that, I think we, we try and do that
24:57
When I think it's really great. I've, I've heard this from, from a lot of other people lately
25:01
as well. And I had a guest on a Janelle Kelman who she
25:04
used to be the mayor of city of Sausalito in California. And
25:08
now she sits on the, on the city council and she's going to run in 2026 for the, uh,
25:11
the lieutenant governorship, uh, of California. And
25:15
she was saying the same thing in the city. She wouldn't mention climate change.
25:18
She would just kind of like, hey, what's your concern? In
25:21
your city, talking to her constituents, what's
25:25
your concern? They'd be like, well, I'm worried about flooding, or I'm worried about wildfires, or I'm
25:28
worried about this. OK, let's see what policies we could put in place
25:31
to stop that. And lo and behold, there would be policies that
25:35
met up with a lot of the solutions. that you would see people
25:38
propose for climate change, but you take the word out
25:42
and sometimes, like you said, you meet them where they are, like, what's your concern? What
25:45
are you worried about? You know, and I think that we
25:49
start to see the answers come out and less of a polarization
25:52
and more of like, well, yeah, this is affecting you and me at the same time.
25:56
Locally here, you know, we've been having some crazy weather,
26:00
you know, as the humidity increases, we've had really, really hot weather. But
26:03
we've been starting to get squalls, like squall warnings and flash
26:07
flooding. And people are concerned that their
26:10
basements and their backyards and everything is going to continue to
26:14
flood over time. So we need to make those changes. Forget about
26:17
climate change. What do we need to do to make those changes? And how do we prepare for
26:24
Sometimes I get conversations started by saying, hey, let's talk about the
26:32
And that's when I say, excuse me, why don't I
26:40
I love it. You never know when you might get that, right? You
26:43
could be at MIT and somebody comes up and asks
26:46
you that. But this leads us great into the book because we
26:51
talk about asking questions. We talk about being curious. And there are a
26:54
lot of people who are curious but may not have the
26:58
ability to get the answers that they want, and not just
27:01
saying they don't have the intellect, it's trying to find the right
27:05
answer to things. We were talking about this before we started recording. Social
27:10
media and the internet has been wonderful in sharing information. But
27:14
it doesn't mean you're getting the right information. I remember I grew up without
27:17
the Internet and in the mid 90s we started to get Internet to our houses
27:21
and we started to learn more about the Internet. But I remember my teachers, my high school teachers
27:24
saying, hey, don't always believe what you read on the
27:27
Internet. I think that's changed a lot where now we rely so
27:31
much on the Internet and so much on information that comes to us that we believe
27:35
sometimes we believe like the first thing that we see or
27:38
that we Google search or that we, you know, wherever wherever you're searching or
27:41
watching a video or things like that. It can be very difficult to
27:45
get that source. And so you can ask that question, but are you going to get the right
27:48
answers? You have provided a solution for that by putting together, both
27:52
of you, putting together this book called Megalodons, Mermaids,
27:55
and Climate Change, Answers to Your Ocean and Atmospheric Questions.
28:00
I think it's laid out perfectly. I think this is a book that
28:03
a lot of people need. Now how, obviously using both
28:07
of your backgrounds and your careers, what was
28:10
the reasoning for this book? And like, why
28:17
So we love to ask questions. I'll have to tell a
28:20
little story about Dave. Okay. Let's
28:23
see, two, two years ago, and it continued this year, I will say,
28:27
but two years ago, we were at the American Meteorological Society
28:31
conference for broadcast meteorologists. And every time somebody would
28:34
give a talk, at the end of the talk, Dave would go up to the mic, I have a
28:37
question. And they'd be like, Dave Jones, Dave Jones, Dave Jones.
28:41
So at the break, the moderator, the
28:44
people organizing the conference at the break, came over to Dave and
28:55
It was perfect. The truth is, then a young
28:59
meteorologist later in the conference got up to the mic, they had
29:02
a mic in the front, and people wouldn't ask questions. The speaker
29:05
would stop, nobody was asked. This young woman got up and she said,
29:10
I'm really very nervous about asking a question, but hearing Dave
29:13
Jones, I'm going to do it.
29:16
We both feel that asking questions is really important.
29:20
Not only when you're looking at some information online, you
29:24
want to ask questions and do some investigation, but
29:27
when you're giving talks, we both do a lot of public speaking, We
29:31
hate it when nobody asks questions. We want people to ask questions. They
29:34
may make you look at a subject from a different perspective. They
29:38
may test you to think in a different way. But it's how
29:41
we learn. There's a, sort of in the dedication of the book,
29:45
it says, questions are the lifeblood of learning. And
29:48
we really believe that. And so that was That
29:52
and the idea that there's a lot of misinformation out there. And so we
29:55
thought, what a great way to combat that misinformation by
29:59
giving the answers to the questions that we and our colleagues
30:02
most frequently we get. And plus, kind of have fun with it with
30:06
using something like the zany questions or things.
30:10
So we can make it fun and yet very informative.
30:14
And having 26 nieces and nephews, I get a lot of zany questions too.
30:18
Wow, 26 nieces and nephews. That's awesome. That
30:22
is, let's make family functions a lot of fun. That's a
30:29
Field hockey. Weather. Weather, yeah, exactly. I
30:33
love it. I love it. So now, you know, laying out this book, Dave,
30:38
I know Ellen, you've obviously written quite a number of books. Dave,
30:43
Well, this is so so here's the thing. I'm really excited about this one
30:46
because it's it's I know it's going to be my bestseller yet. And okay,
30:54
I love it. Well, it must have been nice to because you had Ellen to help you out with
30:58
the process, right? Like in terms of like, what? Oh,
31:02
Careful there. She's great. She's awesome. I
31:05
mean, you know, she would say, hey, I need to learn about thunderstorms and stuff like
31:09
that. So I'd write something. I'd give her six paragraphs. And she said,
31:17
We collaborate very well because we both recognize
31:21
that the other person has expertise that we don't have.
31:26
We have the same sense of humor, which is really helpful. We
31:30
can put in places where we know that they have to be more serious.
31:35
Whenever we can inject a little humor, we'll put that in. We
31:40
tend to collaborate very well in that sense. There
31:44
are things that we each knew a little bit about, but we needed to do some homework
31:48
on, so that was good too. And between
31:51
the two of us, we have this amazing network of colleagues that
31:56
we could go to for questions. We had folks at NASA
32:00
on space weather and heliophysics that we actually could
32:03
contact and we talked to, we sent some sections to. We
32:07
know this amazing climatologist who reviewed a
32:10
lot of the science in the book. So that, and they
32:18
I think that's awesome. Now, were you each the source of the questions
32:22
for ocean and atmosphere? So Dave, did you ask ocean questions?
32:28
Well, you know, we might have questions came from, you know, during, we
32:32
might have just shared questions. But I think one of the neat
32:35
things that we did is we, we did talk to colleagues, and we invited
32:39
colleagues to tell us what are some of the, you know, wacky or
32:43
zany questions are most frequently asked questions that you get. And,
32:46
you know, I have a a network of probably, like Ellen
32:49
was saying, probably 1,500 broadcast meteorologists, you
32:53
know, and say, hey, send me some of your, you know, wacky questions. If we
32:57
use them in the book, we'll tell a little bit about you and
33:00
stuff like that. And, you know, we work with NASA and NOAA, like
33:03
Ellen said, so we can turn to some of those, you know, folks that
33:09
I mean, we got people from the Weather Channel. We got the director of the National
33:16
You know, we, you know, some people that we know, we got them and to tell
33:19
us their favorite questions. And so, you know, there were questions that we've
33:24
And that was, that was, it was really fun to be able to go out and ask people those,
33:29
That's amazing. And now when you, when you get to the answers to those
33:33
questions, you use your backgrounds, you use your colleagues' backgrounds
33:37
and, and and the work that they've done and all the papers that have come out.
33:41
You're probably having to search around for new information because obviously
33:45
everything's being updated as we speak. How
33:49
do you put all that together in, you
33:52
know, a succinct and like, as you mentioned, a little
33:55
bit of humor at times, a little bit serious at times. How do you put all that
33:58
together? So it's not one long drawn, you
34:04
I mean, the good thing about Ellen is from the ocean, she knows everything. So
34:12
So we, we very purposefully, made
34:17
sure that the answers are not that long. In fact, in the beginning of
34:20
the book, we have a little note from us and
34:23
tells us a little bit about each of us. But we also say this book is
34:27
not meant to be a comprehensive encyclopedia about each
34:30
of these topics. And then what we do at the end of
34:33
the book for every chapter, we have reference material that we
34:37
used. And so if people want more detail, they
34:40
wanted to learn more, they could go there. We just wanted to include
34:44
in there the essence of the answer. What's the essence of
34:49
Yeah, yeah. We didn't want all the professors around
34:53
the world contacting us, telling us we didn't use the Clausius
35:01
And then with the illustrations, we had a lot of fun. We would come up
35:04
with an idea for, you know, an illustration that fit
35:07
within a topic. And then we would send them to illustrator and we say,
35:10
here's what our vision is. And she's done it back. We'd be like, she
35:15
was, she was great. And then her name's Elise Burnbach. And
35:19
we'd send it back and we'd ask her, can you do this? And she, it was great working with
35:22
her. And so we got where we wanted on each of them. And
35:25
I think there's about 20, 21 illustrations. And then we have some, color
35:34
Yeah. I mean, most of my questions to Elise were, could I have some muscles?
35:38
Could you give me some hair,
35:42
perhaps? That looks like my teeth, but it's really my mustache. So
35:48
Very deep, very deep. But it's interesting. I've had the
35:51
opportunity to talk to a lot of authors where they put together, they
35:55
collate a lot of information, and they want illustrations to be done. Can
35:59
you talk about how important it is to have a great working relationship with
36:03
also a great illustrator to understand the message
36:07
you're trying to portray? This one seems like you guys have a
36:10
great sense of humor, seems like a lot of fun, some of the illustrations sound like
36:14
they're a lot of fun as well, but it also has to be pertinent
36:23
Not only do you have to have somebody you can work with, but you have
36:26
to be able to go back and forth. And she was really good,
36:29
because I think in our contract it says you have one redo.
36:33
Right. And I'm like, oh, that's going to be tough. And that was not
36:36
the case. I mean, there were a couple at three or four. We
36:40
have one about lenticular clouds, one of Gay's favorites,
36:44
that people often think are UFOs, but they're really clouds. And
36:47
she had the illustration. We just were like, that's
36:51
not really what they look like. And so we'd say, can you
36:54
draw them more like this? And we would send her photographs. And
36:58
we'd say, here's, can it look more like this? And so
37:01
it's very important. And again, part of it, and this is also in writing,
37:05
and when you get to the point of editing things, you have to take your ego out of it.
37:09
You have to have a good relationship with an illustrator, a good relationship with
37:12
an editor. It's not about, what you want
37:15
or what you personally, it's what works the best. What's going to
37:20
Yeah. And the first, the first time, uh, I
37:24
met or saw Elise was at a natural hazards conference
37:28
in Colorado. And it was really amazing because she, there
37:31
was a session going on. She was in the,
37:35
on the side of the room, sketching out in
37:38
real time, uh, the conversation. And
37:42
by the end of the session, there was an entire summary
37:46
with sketches of what we talked about. And
37:50
it I mean, she drew ecosystems, she drew, you know,
37:53
the sun and fish and birds and people interacting with
38:00
Think about this. Think about like the speed and accuracy of the
38:04
way she's able to do that. Yeah, in that time frame.
38:07
It's it's crazy. That's insane. Yeah, I love, I
38:11
didn't realize how important it was to have an illustrator, I thought having an
38:14
illustrator, you just have to have an illustrator, you know, but having
38:17
that working relationship is so important, so it's great
38:22
Yeah, and to understand your vision, I mean... Yeah. If
38:25
she thought we just wanted straight illustrations, it probably would have been difficult.
38:29
But when she figured out that we were looking for the humor bent in
38:32
it, it changed it. The illustrations changed a
38:48
So we have a lot. But one of our favorite ones, and it gets back
38:55
And so, you know, you want to make sure that the expert you
38:58
have is really the expert in the topic that you're talking about. So we
39:02
have an illustration of a cow. There's a veterinarian with
39:07
a glove, you know, and
39:19
So the vet Yeah, what do you think? And the vet
39:25
Yeah. No, climate change isn't real. You know, he's
39:29
got his arm up there. Yeah. And so it's like, wait
39:32
a minute. You're not a
39:36
scientist or environmental scientist. Yeah.
39:43
For sure. I love that. I love that. Speaking of
39:46
that, who is this book designed for?
39:50
We talked about people who have curiosity, but everybody has curiosity at every different
39:54
age group. It's always good to – these books tend to target a
39:58
specific age group and demographic and just audience.
40:03
Ellen, typically your books in the past have done more like tween
40:10
Yeah, so I kind of have a range of books. Okay. So I've written young
40:14
kids books, which are four to seven illustrated. I've written some middle schooler
40:17
adventure novels, but I've also written quite a few books that are popular
40:21
science. And that's what I would call this. It's popular science, which typically
40:29
It's also there are some very ambitious middle
40:33
schoolers who would like it too. One of
40:36
the best audiences will be educators and
40:39
science communicators, like informal educators, because we
40:48
So, you know, the target audience is really,
40:54
I think it's good, nice
40:58
and narrowed down range. I like that. But
41:02
these are questions, I mean, these are questions that are asked by everybody
41:05
within that age group, right? These are common questions where
41:09
sometimes like for us scientists, we're sometimes like, well, how
41:12
do you not know that? But a lot of people don't know this kind of stuff. That
41:16
information is not available and they need to know the
41:22
Here's the thing, too, is that I would get asked this all the time, and
41:26
it's actually not in this book, but I
41:29
would get asked all the time, how did you become
41:33
interested in weather, and how did you figure out it
41:36
could be a job? Right, yeah. Okay,
41:40
yeah, it is in the book, but people would say, I
41:44
love the weather, I just never knew I could
41:47
make money at it. And so what
41:51
I realized early on was
41:55
that everybody at some point in their life probably
41:58
wanted to be a meteorologist. Yeah. You know, because
42:02
they're watching the weather. There's
42:07
Yeah. It's really they want to be marine biologists. Well,
42:11
maybe. Maybe. possible. They
42:19
I have to admit, when I tell people I'm a marine biologist
42:22
at like parties and things like that, they're telling me, Oh, I always wanted to be a marine, but
42:26
I didn't know you can make a career out of it. Exactly. So they're very
42:37
And then I go into my speech
42:40
about dolphins, and then they're like, oh, oh, no, I don't want to pay for
42:45
But you know, it's also really interesting. So we have some wacky questions
42:49
which we could talk about, but there are also some really important questions in
42:52
this book. And I'm going to give you an example, too, that's so related to
42:57
It just came out that there was a storm in St.
43:00
Petersburg, Florida, and a group of teens sheltered
43:04
under a tree. tree got struck by lightning
43:08
and one of those teens very tragically passed away. People
43:12
have this misunderstanding that a tree is a safe shelter
43:16
in lightning and we have a whole chapter on lightning and
43:19
a lot of it is about safety. One of the things we very clearly
43:23
say is do not shelter under a tree because
43:27
it conducts lightning and it threw the ground and you do not want to be there.
43:30
So in addition to the wacky and the fun questions and you
43:33
know, just some other, you know, things I think
43:40
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, regarding lightning and trees. I mean, I think, I
43:43
think a lot of people run under a tree to stay dry.
43:48
Right. And they don't want to get wet. But unfortunately, it's
43:52
a thunderstorm and lightning likes to strike the
43:56
tallest objects. And, you know, we've
43:59
seen it. We saw it several years ago, just outside of
44:02
the White House in Washington, D.C. Four people went
44:06
under a tree to get away from a storm. Lightning struck
44:13
And that should not be happening. And it's all about education
44:17
and awareness. And so that's, you know, we hope We're
44:20
answering some fun questions and things that people are curious about,
44:24
but there are also some really important things about hurricanes, lightning, climate
44:29
change, all of that. Again, we always say we have
44:32
a lot of fun, but we also have some really important topics in
44:36
I think that also goes to what you mentioned earlier, Ellen, was
44:40
to meet people where they're at. That's a common thing.
44:44
Right when you said that I think about you know a soccer
44:48
field usually there's multiple soccer games going on you're in an open field
44:52
there may be a few Trees that around a few large
44:55
trees around you get the downpour people are running they're panicking they're
44:58
either going to their cars or if they're not like You know they go under a tree
45:02
and they wait under a tree and then you have some people don't stand on that tree no no it's
45:05
fine to stand on that tree no no don't and then you get the sort of the
45:09
local lore of yes it is good or no it's not and these kids
45:13
are gonna listen to their parents one way or another because that's
45:16
their That's their safety net, right? That's what they go for. I agree
45:20
with you. It's really important that these questions come out again and again and again, even
45:24
though we think, oh, that's a simple question to answer, but people
45:28
don't know, just based off a couple of examples. That could be life-threatening
45:33
at times, and we don't want to see that, obviously. That's
45:37
Well, we have, we have sharks are in there. Jellyfish are in there.
45:42
So is the question about jellyfish, you don't need to pee on somebody's foot
45:48
Is that, that is a major question. In fact, we even have
45:51
an, we even have an illustration in there and about that
45:55
question. And we explain the science behind why
45:59
the answer is no. So
46:15
Well, speaking of questions, like you seem to have a lot of really interesting questions, some
46:18
fun and some, you know, obviously a serious, uh, Dave, I'm
46:22
going to ask each of you this, but Dave, I'll ask you first, what was your favorite question
46:28
Oh, gosh, well, I did like them all. I think one
46:31
that's really quite popular now, and
46:34
it has been for a number of years, when people
46:38
go outside and they look up and they see jet planes fly
46:42
over and they see the contrails coming out of the jet plane. Well,
46:46
there's a certain group of people who think that they are chemtrails.
46:51
and that the government is spraying us
46:55
so they can alter our minds to think a certain way. And
47:00
of course that's not true. Contrails are
47:03
condensation trails out of the back of a hot
47:07
jet engine and it's very cold up there. So
47:10
you're immediately having the temperature meet the dew point, it
47:14
creates a cloud, becomes a cirrus cloud made of ice
47:17
crystals, and sometimes an airplane will fly
47:20
through a pocket of dry air and so the contrail doesn't
47:24
form. because it evaporates that moisture right away. But
47:28
then when it hits air that's more moist and can support a
47:32
cloud, it will re-show up, right?
47:35
And so some people say, aha, they're not spraying there now, but
47:38
look, they are spraying over here. And so if they would
47:41
just take a little bit of time to understand some science,
47:46
then, you know, it might not be so pervasive.
47:50
So would it be safe to say like a question that I just got from that, I mean, you could probably
47:54
answer these questions like all day. You know,
47:57
you look at areas, say like Arizona, very dry
48:01
area, is it still dry at those at the
48:05
sort of the 35,000 feet of a jet that would that
48:11
That's a great question. So Arizona is very dry at
48:15
the surface, but the atmosphere, you can
48:19
think of a whole bunch of layers, like a lot of layers. And
48:22
each one of those layers can have moisture in them. And
48:26
so that's what determines levels of clouds that you see
48:29
during the day. As a matter of fact, how moist is that layer
48:32
of the atmosphere to produce a cloud? And
48:36
where you don't see clouds, where it's clear, it's too dry,
48:40
or the air is pressing down.
48:44
That's why high pressures are good, because they're pressing down air
48:48
and vertical motion creates clouds, descending motion gets
48:54
So you can have different layers over Arizona and you can see those contrails
48:59
I got to get this book, because even I'm learning things off of this. Ellen,
49:04
I'm going to ask you, and Dave, I apologize before, because
49:07
I asked you what your favorite question is. Obviously, there's going to be a lot of questions in
49:11
there that you probably liked, as you mentioned. So Ellen, I'm going to change this
49:18
So the jellyfish one was one of my favorites. But one of the others, you
49:21
already actually mentioned it, is Megalodons. I
49:25
do a lot of public speaking, and I know you and my colleagues get,
49:29
you know, well, how do you know that they're not still alive in
49:32
the deep sea? We've only explored less than 10% of the ocean. You just said that.
49:36
How do you know they're not down there? And so I go
49:39
through the scientific evidence as to how we know they are
49:42
not still alive. And one of my favorite, you know, there's several lines of
49:45
evidence, but one is that, as you well know, sharks produce
49:49
about 40,000 teeth during their lifetime. 40,000 during
49:54
their lifetime like a conveyor belt. If there were giant
49:59
sharks with teeth seven inches long producing 40,000 teeth
50:04
a year, and we know that they liked
50:07
productive waters in the subtropics, so they're probably pretty close to
50:11
shore, we would find some. The
50:14
only teeth we find are fossilized teeth, millions of years
50:17
old, so we know they're not still in the modern ocean. And
50:21
so, you know, giving the actual scientific evidence how
50:25
we know they're not still alive is really important. So that
50:31
So the movie The Meg is not real, is what you're trying to
50:36
It is not. It was fun though. It was fun though. I
50:39
watched it. I'm not against... It made a lot of movies. I'm not
50:43
against those kind of movies where they are so kind of
50:46
outrageously fun and they're not supposed to be taken
50:49
as real science. Now, the other kind of things there are the mockumentaries
50:57
Disclaimer, this is not real three point font going.
51:00
Yeah, exactly. Nobody can Of course, yeah,
51:04
cuz there was a famous one. I think we're probably thinking of the same one It was during shark
51:08
week. They had like, you know, quote-unquote Noah scientists on
51:11
there and they weren't real They were just actors and I think
51:14
they try to play a spoof on everybody and I just remember that the comments
51:18
after on social media back I'm never going in the ocean again. I can't
51:21
believe we haven't heard about this before. It's amazing the
51:25
power of communication and what that can do from
51:29
an advantageous point of view in education and
51:33
then what it can do is just put the living fear in everybody from
51:39
The power of visualization. The more real you can make something look, the more
51:42
believable you know people think it is and
51:46
it's the same thing with with weather if you can we're
51:50
work doing some work right now trying to make flood levels be
51:55
as realistic as possible so people understand not
51:58
their house might be above the water but the road and
52:02
the critical infrastructure is all going to be messed up so they better evacuate you
52:09
What I find really interesting to me, and I think this happens a
52:13
lot of places, not just in North America, but the amount of the
52:16
lack of information when people buy houses or move into an area. We
52:19
have people moving all over countries and halfway across the
52:22
world now where you can work anywhere in the world. and you
52:26
don't know where those floodplains are, that were
52:29
either built over or they're still there, but there's infrastructure there, like
52:33
you mentioned, Dave, that will get flooded, that's expected to
52:36
get flooded. Usually the people who know are the insurance companies or
52:41
the government, but a lot of residences who buy certain
52:44
land plots or houses or apartments or whatever that
52:47
might be, or businesses, and all of a sudden they realize, hey,
52:51
All of a sudden, my place
52:55
is being flooded by five feet, or even if it's just a
52:58
little bit of wet basement. We had a storm
53:02
here where a storage place, the office got flooded five
53:05
feet, like insane amounts, and that had never happened
53:09
before because those are designed for 100-year storms. But those
53:12
are happening more and more now. So I find it really interesting
53:15
how we don't get that. So having a tool like that would
53:19
be really, really great for that availability for everybody
53:23
And then you have a husband and wife and kids. They buy a house. They
53:27
move in. The kids are playing in the backyard. They bring back a whole bucket full
53:30
of seashells. And they say, look, Dad. Look at all these seashells. He's
53:34
like, we don't live near the ocean. What are they doing here? It's
53:43
Now, this is a book that answers, how many questions do you answer? Do
53:46
you know the number? we actually have never counted wow no
53:50
i assume it's quite a bit i assume it's more than a lot there's a
53:54
lot yeah that's our answer a lot a lot okay so now obviously
53:58
this is not like a finite amount of questions there are a
54:01
lot of other questions that you can answer i know this is you know we're talking about
54:04
releasing this as the as the first edition do you think you
54:08
know is there a will and a want to do Another edition
54:11
and obviously it'll make make sure that after a lot of people buy this you'll probably
54:14
like yes Let's do this again, but do you think there will be opportunities to follow
54:19
up this with answering more questions? Well my thought in the beginning
54:30
Since I'm not the main writer, I think we should do a whole bunch of
54:36
them. In all seriousness, I think the
54:40
book will kick off, hopefully, a
54:43
lot more curiosity and a lot more questions that people have. And
54:47
I think that our networks between marine
54:52
and ocean and atmosphere, I anticipate getting
54:55
contacted by people saying, you should ask this, or
54:59
you should ask this. And so hopefully, the
55:03
momentum of the book will just kind of drop
55:06
the second volume in our laps. And we just have to say, well, let's
55:10
We'll see. But the publisher will come back and say, you have to do a
55:19
After my last popular science book, I said, Dave, I
55:23
was exhausted. I was like, it's a lot of work. I was like, if I ever say
55:26
I'm going to do another one of these books, smack me over the head. Then
55:29
it was like two months later, hey, I think I have this really good idea. Didn't
55:34
you say I should smack you if you ever said
55:42
OK, now let's do it. I'm in. I'm in. Well, I love it. I think this is
55:45
great. And it's available for pre-sale. It's coming out in October 2024. It's
55:49
available for pre-sale right now. I'm going to put the link to
55:53
the Amazon link for everybody so that they can go buy
55:56
it. I highly recommend to buy this. I know I'm going to be buying a
56:00
few copies and giving them out to some people because I think it's really interesting
56:03
if you're a like I would say if you're a teacher if you're
56:06
an educator and any kind of so these are great to buy not just one but by
56:10
four students give them away share them with people because
56:13
I think this is a book that's really really necessary I'm so
56:17
happy that both of you uh... wrote this book and answer
56:20
these questions i know it it definitely you look at that range i
56:23
was think all kids need to learn about this but here i am a scientist
56:27
of forty five all turned but turned forty six be like now i gotta get this book
56:30
i gotta read this kind of stuff i think this is uh... this is definitely
56:34
needed, as I mentioned, and I'm really happy that you all decided to
56:38
do this. And so thank you. Thank you for coming on and sharing
56:41
this. The energy between you is awesome. I love having you on.
56:45
Feel free to come back. Let us know how it goes and
56:48
other projects as well. I'd love to chat with both of
56:51
you again. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
56:57
Thank you, Ellen. And thank you, Dave, for joining me on today's episode of the How
57:00
to Protect the Ocean podcast. The energy that these two bring
57:04
to the table and to this podcast is electrifying. No pun intended,
57:08
but it is electrifying. You know, you have to admit if you've listened to
57:11
that entire episode and you listen to that interview, you realize you're
57:15
like, wow, these people are quite entertaining, but
57:18
they have the knowledge to help you get
57:21
educated on a lot of these questions that people have. You yourself
57:25
might have, other people you may not realize these questions needed to be
57:28
answered or you didn't know the answer to them maybe and that's something
57:32
that is really handy about this book so with that said
57:35
I am going to put the link to this book which comes out in October 2024 but
57:40
you can pre-order it and I highly recommend that you pre-order a
57:43
couple because you want to give some of these away some of them
57:46
maybe to some you know nieces and nephews maybe
57:50
you want to give away to your kids maybe you want to give away to your grandkids but
57:54
if you have any child or anybody at any age
57:57
who's curious about the ocean and the atmosphere, one
58:00
or the other or both, I think this book is for them. So
58:04
I'm gonna recommend it to everybody to go out and buy that book. The
58:07
link is in the show notes or in the comments below, depending if
58:10
you're listening to this on YouTube or audio-wise or on Spotify. It
58:15
doesn't matter. There's gonna be a link in there for you to pre-order. I highly recommend
58:18
that you pre-order a couple and hopefully there'll
58:21
be more books coming out in the future. There is an
58:25
audiobook coming out too and you're going to love that as well. So
58:29
lots of ways to purchase this. I can't wait for you to purchase this. Let me know what
58:32
you think of the book and how excited you are for the book and please review it.
58:36
But this is going to be one of those books that I feel is going to be
58:39
a resource for a lot of people in the future. So that's
58:43
it for today's episode. You know, if you want to stay in touch, please follow, subscribe on
58:46
your favorite podcast app and leave comments. I'd love to hear what you
58:49
thought of the episode, whether you're on YouTube, Spotify, or if
58:52
you want to get ahold of me, you can do so by going to
58:56
my Instagram at howtoprotecttheocean, all one word, and
58:59
just DMing me. Love to hear from you. And I want to also thank Ellen
59:03
and Dave for joining us as well, of course. And thank you for joining us
59:06
on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Have a great day. We'll talk to you