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James Small - Part 2 · Rusty's Garage

• 0:02
  A listener production.
• 0:20
  G'day, it's Rusty here, all set for part two of my podcast with Aussie engineer and NASCAR crew chief James Small.
• 0:27
  If you've arrived at this point and somehow missed part one, jump back to the library and hit the gas.
• 0:32
  You'll really enjoy it.
• 0:33
  From his recollections of the Thunderdome as a young fella and the influence of his dad Les, a well-known figure in Australian motorsport.
• 0:42
  karting and some cool titles he picked up as a junior, the promise Larry Perkins made and honoured.
• 0:48
  The difficult decision to stop chasing the driver dream, but his dedication and commitment to being a winner on pit row, on the other side of pit wall, one that would lead him to filling big shoes as a crew chief at one of the biggest teams in NASCAR.
• 1:04
  We begin part two with his first job stateside with Richard Childress Racing, a team with a lot of history.
• 1:12
  And James has fond memories of RCR when he fell in love with NASCAR as a young bloke.
• 1:19
  Yeah, and that was, you know, a huge drawcard for me.
• 1:23
  You know, I was, Dale Earnhardt was my favourite NASCAR driver.
• 1:26
  You know, a lot of my go-kart racing, I wore the number three and, uh,
• 1:31
  You know, it was just an iconic organization.
• 1:34
  And obviously, you know, they've had a lot of success.
• 1:37
  And, you know, even at the time, they still had Kevin Harvick there and they were, you know, contending for championships and race wins.
• 1:44
  So they were still, you know, a pretty major force in the NASCAR world.
• 1:49
  just going there for the interview and the scale of just the compound that they're in and all the different shops and everything, and it just kind of blew me away.
• 2:03
  It's the same when you come to any of these teams over here.
• 2:06
  It's just the scale is off the charts.
• 2:10
  So I was walking around.
• 2:12
  Probably a little bit like a race fan and thinking, how good is this?
• 2:16
  But, you know, I was, yeah, very lucky that, you know, they gave me an opportunity to get my foot in the door.
• 2:24
  The enormity of the operation, I think, grabs everybody.
• 2:26
  Lee Diffie took me on like a penny tour through a number of the...
• 2:30
  the different outfits.
• 2:31
  And it's like going into suburbs.
• 2:33
  You need a car to get around to every aspect of it.
• 2:35
  And I would imagine, mate, from what you've shared here, that the museum that RCR has dedicated to Dale would have been a must-see for you.
• 2:46
  Yeah, that's for sure.
• 2:47
  If anybody's ever going to come over and they have to drive up to Welcome, there's a little bit away, but it's worth it.
• 2:53
  You know, the amount of cars and the history in there.
• 2:56
  And, you know, it's just, it's actually one of the best museums I've been in.
• 3:00
  It's really cool to see.
• 3:01
  So, yeah, it's just...
• 3:05
  I don't know, it's just surreal still.
• 3:07
  You know, the museum's based in kind of, you know, their original shop, you know, when they won those championships before they kind of started expanding.
• 3:14
  So that's really cool just to see the progression of where they started and then to the rest of the campus around there.
• 3:22
  So it's a, yeah, must do.
• 3:25
  Let's get our teeth more into NASCAR in a second.
• 3:27
  Can I ask the obvious question though, James?
• 3:30
  You'd had success with FPR.
• 3:33
  How did...
• 3:34
  They take the news that you were going to head stateside.
• 3:36
  Was that with their blessing?
• 3:38
  How did that whole discussion go?
• 3:41
  No, it went well.
• 3:43
  You know, I think I told Mark first, actually.
• 3:50
  I wanted to tell him first.
• 3:51
  I think I can't even remember how I did it.
• 3:54
  I either rang him and we went and had lunch.
• 3:56
  I think I rang him and told him, you know, and he was really disappointed.
• 4:00
  Yeah.
• 4:02
  But he was also, it's a great opportunity.
• 4:05
  And then Tim Edwards, I went to him and told him, and he spent a lot of time overseas, obviously with Jordan and all that.
• 4:12
  And he knew what the attraction was, and he was more than happy for me to go and attempt to do this.
• 4:20
  And I almost went back there after a couple of years, to be honest, that's another story.
• 4:27
  I was a little bit despondent at the time,
• 4:30
  You know, they kept ringing me and trying to get me to go back.
• 4:35
  But, yeah, they were all good about it.
• 4:39
  You know, I still talk to some of them to these days, you know, people I work with and we still keep in contact.
• 4:46
  We have a mutual friend.
• 4:47
  An old colleague of mine is Tim Hodges.
• 4:49
  We worked together at Channel 10 back in the day.
• 4:52
  Now, he says for me to ask you that I am, as I talk to you now, I'm –
• 4:58
  I spend a lot of my time in NZ.
• 5:00
  My wife's a Kiwi.
• 5:02
  And so I get on pretty well with Greg Murphy, who's more or less a neighbour, not quite over the fence from each other, but we're not far away.
• 5:09
  And Tim reminded me that you took Murph and Hodgie and a few others through RCR in 2016 before the Indy 500.
• 5:17
  But I think you'd showed all the Richard Childress guys the famous Murphy Ambrose fight at the mountain, had you?
• 5:24
  Is that right?
• 5:24
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had.
• 5:26
  So they all knew, they all knew, didn't they?
• 5:28
  Yeah, yeah.
• 5:29
  So, and then as soon as he came around, they just knew, they loved it.
• 5:36
  I forgot I did that.
• 5:37
  So, yeah, that was a real pisser.
• 5:40
  So, yeah, because Marcus, was he still there at the time or maybe he'd gone back that year?
• 5:47
  But, yeah, they knew he meant business.
• 5:51
  Awesome, awesome.
• 5:53
  Tell us about more of the progression now from what you did in the early days for Richard Childress and how you found the whole sport, the whole experience.
• 6:03
  Yeah, so it was...
• 6:06
  It was very different, you know, to what I was used to.
• 6:10
  You know, we were very kind of systematic, you know, very... And now, let me put this in the context.
• 6:18
  This is different at all different teams over here.
• 6:21
  You know, there's different cultures and whatever.
• 6:23
  And I think a lot of the teams now are more not engineering driven, like kind of scientific base, you know, kind of aspects of it.
• 6:34
  But
• 6:35
  there I was like, I was like, I was just kind of questioning a lot of things.
• 6:41
  You know, I knew I had a lot to learn, so I wasn't saying anything.
• 6:45
  you know, we go testing and I'm like, this doesn't, you know, make sense.
• 6:50
  Like we're not really using a proper process here.
• 6:53
  Like I'm a very process driven person and, you know, we're just slinging from the hip, you know, changing this, changing that.
• 7:01
  So that was a little, you know, hard to get used to.
• 7:04
  But, you know, I was with, you know, I was lucky.
• 7:06
  I got to work with, you know, that first year on the 27 with Paul, it was Slugger Labby who was the crew chief and, you know,
• 7:14
  you know, he's a old school dude from up North, but you know, he's a racer.
• 7:17
  And, uh,
• 7:19
  I learned a lot from him.
• 7:21
  We had our disagreements in the way we did certain things, but I think we both respected each other and he respected that.
• 7:28
  But I learned a lot just on the nuances of NASCAR, the technical inspection process and how you're always trying to flirt in the gray areas and get things through.
• 7:41
  It's a very different experience.
• 7:45
  way of going racing to what it was in Australia.
• 7:49
  Yeah.
• 7:50
  You know, I think Australia, everybody's a little more gentlemanly like, you know, and by the book and maybe, maybe it's changed, but maybe not pushing things as hard, you know, it's just, if you don't race like that over here, you get left behind, you know, and that's just the culture and the mentality.
• 8:08
  And, you know, I learned a hell of a lot about that.
• 8:11
  Um,
• 8:13
  But yeah, it was also a little difficult, you know, just trying to wrap my head around
• 8:21
  you know, certain aspects of why they would do things that didn't make sense to me.
• 8:25
  But, you know, being the new guy, you know, I, you know, it took a while before I started to question things.
• 8:31
  And, you know, I had a lot to learn, you know, it's still a car with, you know, a mass with four wheels trying to go around the corner as fast as possible.
• 8:38
  But there's so many different nuances to, you know, oval racing and, you know, and just how the tracks change.
• 8:47
  And it's just,
• 8:48
  There was a lot to learn.
• 8:49
  So I was like a sponge, you know, my first year.
• 8:52
  And yeah, I'm grateful that I got to work, you know, with some of the people that I did and just learn from them.
• 8:58
  Cause that's still helps me, you know, to this day.
• 9:00
  And, you know, Slugger and I are still really good friends and, you know, he works at Toyota now.
• 9:04
  So it's a good person to have in my corner.
• 9:07
  How did you go with the cultural shift?
• 9:10
  Are you teaching them Aussie slang?
• 9:13
  Are you absorbing sort of American, you know, little things, Z and Z and so on?
• 9:20
  What were you like there?
• 9:21
  It's still like they used to give me so much shit.
• 9:25
  So, like, just some even like how I'd say numbers, like 13 or whatever, like, yeah.
• 9:32
  like in the rubbish bin or whatever and like it's the trash can and like even like things like it took me a while like it's not the bonnet anymore it's the hood or it's not the boot it's the trunk and you know like all these little things and uh you know we definitely taught them and still to this day you know Aussie slang is a big part of our team and all the teams I've worked with work with and uh
• 9:58
  You know, they've got a lot of words they've learnt from me that are probably way too inappropriate for this podcast.
• 10:05
  We can always recognise your voice in the broadcast too, mate, when we hear you over the airwaves, which is really cool stuff.
• 10:11
  You talked before, just before we get to sort of furniture racing and being based in Denver and so on.
• 10:17
  Did you have that period of uncertainty around this point where FPR was still ringing?
• 10:23
  When did that happen and why were you sort of in that funk?
• 10:27
  You know, I think the first year it was really hard.
• 10:32
  It was a big culture shock, you know, just moving from, you know, we lived in a city, Melbourne, Kat and I, and we moved to Winston-Salem.
• 10:40
  We weren't living in Charlotte.
• 10:41
  And so Winston-Salem is probably an hour 15 north of Charlotte.
• 10:46
  It was closer to RCR.
• 10:48
  It was a small, small town.
• 10:52
  And it was hard, you know, Kat couldn't work.
• 10:57
  I was away a lot.
• 10:58
  There was still a lot of testing back in those days.
• 11:02
  I was away nearly every week for three or four days at least.
• 11:07
  Then obviously racing and it was hard for her to make friends and it was just hard to fit in.
• 11:15
  Even going to the grocery store up there and people would be like, what?
• 11:21
  It was a lot to take in.
• 11:24
  You know, it's just us and the dog and, you know, Kat couldn't work because of the visa thing at the start.
• 11:29
  So it was, it was really hard on her.
• 11:31
  And, you know, I, I honestly wasn't enjoying it as much as I thought I would, you know, just, um, you know, I love the whole racing side, but I, I just couldn't, I didn't, it wasn't that I wasn't clicking with them.
• 11:44
  It was just, I didn't feel like it was the way I would go about doing things like, and it kinda.
• 11:51
  you couldn't really say anything, but it's just like, so all of those things was like, it was difficult.
• 11:57
  And it was like, I think probably eight weeks after I'd been here, Slugger sent me out, you know, initially to do more testing and Furniture Row were technical partners with us.
• 12:08
  And I met a couple of guys there, Cole Pern and Matt Faulkner, and who were engineers at the time.
• 12:14
  And, you know, Cole was Canadian and Matt was from, you know, out that way.
• 12:19
  we just got on like a house on fire.
• 12:21
  And I'm like, this is, these are the people, you know, these are the people I want to be with.
• 12:25
  Like we thought the same, we thought about engineering the same, about how we would do things and all of that.
• 12:31
  So I became quite good friends with them.
• 12:34
  And that kind of gave me a little bit of hope that maybe one day I could go and work with them.
• 12:38
  And, but yeah, it was like, that year was hard.
• 12:42
  And I think at the time, I think I was talking to Penske again about going back
• 12:49
  to Australia, um, to potentially, maybe that was a year after cause Scotty was all on me about trying to go out there, um, when they were going to start up their team and all that.
• 13:02
  So I don't know, it was a weird couple of years and I just didn't really like living up there and it was, it was, there was a multitude of reasons.
• 13:11
  Um, but we kept sticking it out.
• 13:13
  And so, uh.
• 13:15
  And I think those days made us a lot stronger people and helped us understand ourselves better.
• 13:23
  And we still made some good friends from up there eventually, but ultimately I think it made us realize
• 13:29
  you know, when we did move out to Denver, like that's when it finally started feeling like home over here.
• 13:36
  Having someone like Kat, because that is, the tour is a grind, mate, way more than Australia, way tougher than Australia.
• 13:42
  Having someone like her as a backstop is hugely important, isn't it?
• 13:47
  Oh yeah, big time.
• 13:48
  You know, I couldn't have done anything, you know, that I've done without her and just, it's,
• 13:53
  you know, I'm just thankful for everything.
• 13:55
  You know, she's kept me on the straight and narrow and looked after me and, you know, and I'm definitely not the most easiest person to be around.
• 14:02
  And, you know, it all kind of worked out.
• 14:05
  And I'm glad, you know, eventually, you know, we got somewhere, you know, where she could have a better time as well, you know, out in Colorado.
• 14:13
  And, yeah, that's when I think, you know, that was the turning point of us being here and deciding that, you know, this is the place for us for the rest of our lives.
• 14:23
  Awesome.
• 14:23
  We'll get to that in a second.
• 14:25
  You mentioned Scotty a moment ago.
• 14:26
  You're obviously talking about Scotty McLaughlin trying to lure you across to the Penske supercars thing when it really took off with DJR.
• 14:32
  Yeah, so because Scotty came and stayed with me, what year would it have been?
• 14:37
  He came in 2015, so I think whenever he came over for his interview,
• 14:43
  when he went because he came over and we went to RCR.
• 14:47
  I took him to RCR and I'm like, this guy, he wants to do some Xfinity races.
• 14:51
  I introduced him to Mike Dillon, who is Richard's son-in-law.
• 14:56
  And we're talking about it and about what it would cost to do and all that.
• 15:04
  And then...
• 15:07
  I don't know why they wouldn't go for it, but you know what they, but then eventually he went down there, you know, I think the next day and he had his meeting with Tim and Sindrik and, and you know, that all kind of took off and, um, yeah.
• 15:21
  And I think he came across maybe the year before he was at Loudon or whatever, but, um, you know, it's, it worked out perfectly for him and he's had a stellar career, hasn't he?
• 15:40
  James, you took the words right out of my mouth.
• 15:44
  Stella Scotty I call him.
• 15:45
  And his journey is all documented in his episode with Rusty, including a special meeting with the captain.
• 15:53
  So Roger later on decides to play in the sport and the dots would ultimately join that you would be a part of that outfit.
• 16:00
  You know, wonderful new chapter for you.
• 16:03
  Did the captain, I mean he's an automotive industry icon, motor racing legend in terms of what he's achieved as a team owner.
• 16:10
  What was the phone call like and can you remember what he said?
• 16:14
  Yeah, I remember seeing the number.
• 16:17
  plus one and I was like well this could be important so I answered it and I had Tim's number and he said yeah Scott's Roger Penske and basically this is a little bit down the line when we had been in discussions but Roger's always the final say in regards to his drivers I'm guessing so he gave me a call and just said you know this is what we're about and all that sort of thing I would love to have you on our team and it was a very short sharp
• 16:43
  Yeah, it was just very surreal and something that I'll never forget.
• 16:47
  But it was funny when I first, this is a lot before this, but 2015 at New Zealand was the first time I actually met Roger.
• 16:54
  And he came out and he actually sent me an email and I absolutely crapped my pants when he sent it.
• 16:59
  I was like, because I didn't actually have my phone turned on and I actually missed the email, but he came and saw me.
• 17:05
  and he was like, oh, how do you like the shop?
• 17:06
  And I'm like, I was ducking for cover because I hadn't told anyone I'd been there or anything like that, and I was like, oh, it was all right, let's go talk over here.
• 17:15
  But from that day on, he was amazing, and then, yeah, obviously, when discussions got serious about joining DJI Team Penske, it was, you know, crazy to be a part of it.
• 17:27
  All right, that's Scott in Rusty's garage.
• 17:29
  Now back to Rusty.
• 17:32
  The furniture road racing thing is worth touching on.
• 17:34
  You talked about it being people that you connected with and so on.
• 17:38
  They were, because of, if memory serves, the sponsor and the passion for Denver and the want to operate in that place, they had you all –
• 17:51
  up there and that kind of meant that you were one out and one wide of the hub that is Charlotte.
• 17:58
  But in the same sense too, it meant you had this kind of really tight bond, all of you, which you sort of alluded to with Cole and things like that before, didn't you?
• 18:06
  Yeah, no, it was way different out there.
• 18:09
  You know, it's like if you were out there, you wanted to be out there.
• 18:13
  And it was like a kind of like a us against the world mentality, you know.
• 18:20
  One difficult thing about being in Charlotte is that everybody knows everybody and everybody talks and, you know, people probably go out and drink and, you know, start talking about racing and secrets don't always stay secrets.
• 18:33
  And, you know, none of that happened out there.
• 18:36
  And, uh, you know, it was just a, it was a small little shop, you know, it was honestly smaller than most V.A.
• 18:43
  Supercar, you know, shops.
• 18:46
  We had a super passionate owner in Barney Visser, you know, the guy at OwnFurnitureRow and, uh, just, uh, it was the culture there was just.
• 18:55
  Anything that was different to anything, uh, if experienced, you know, and, um,
• 19:02
  we were very lucky that, you know, at the time until we, until we shut down when money was a, was a problem, money wasn't really an option before then, you know, you, we had the ability to, you know, get what we want and spend what we wanted and they, they didn't leave, you know, any,
• 19:17
  any stone unturned and you know it was we were lucky we had the the technical partnership with uh toyota and joe gibbs racing so essentially you know we were taking what you know they were they were kind of giving us and and and kind of making it better you know we bodied all our own cars out there and had you know great people doing that and uh it's just different everything was more efficient you know like
• 19:42
  You didn't have, you know, 500 people working there, you know, you could just make a decision on the spot and then that's what we're doing.
• 19:49
  You didn't need to have 16 meetings about it and have everybody agree and then have it filter through.
• 19:54
  And it was, you know, there was, it was just much easier.
• 19:58
  And obviously there's a lot of challenges being a small team, but there's also a lot of benefits.
• 20:02
  David and Goliath stuff too, mate.
• 20:04
  I mean, to win a championship there with what is effectively the smallest team, I mean, that is just enormous.
• 20:11
  How does that even happen in the world of NASCAR that you now, you know, are immersed in?
• 20:17
  I think it's just great people.
• 20:19
  You know, it's obviously the connection with JGR was huge, you know, in terms of technical support and, you know,
• 20:30
  They developed some really good cars over the year and their area department, you know, and still is.
• 20:37
  Our area department is immense.
• 20:39
  You know, we have the greatest people in there.
• 20:41
  And that was, you know, so much of the game, especially back then when it was, you know, the rules were obviously a little more open than what they are today.
• 20:50
  So, yeah.
• 20:52
  You know, being able to take that and then, you know, there are different processes, you know, Furniture, Rohard, just in how they went about, you know, setting their cars up and, you know, using simulation tools and all of that, you know.
• 21:06
  really we were ahead of the game of a lot of people and that that was one of the you know big advantages i think we had at that time in in trying to get it you know optimizing everything and and getting the the cars better so uh and i that paid dividends and now you know everybody's kind of caught up and you know the things we were doing back then you know helped jgr and toyota develop you know their programs more so uh
• 21:32
  you know, thankfully none of that work we did really, you know, it's all come to fruition now really.
• 21:37
  And you get a chance in, uh, I want to say in 2017 to do some crew chief stuff too as well.
• 21:44
  Was it, was it, it was Eric Jones, wasn't it?
• 21:46
  And you, and you actually had some success, mate.
• 21:48
  I think there's a 10th at Watkins Glen and maybe a third at Michigan and so on.
• 21:52
  So that was a cool step up for you as well.
• 21:54
  It was cool.
• 21:55
  Yeah.
• 21:55
  That was a cool opportunity.
• 21:57
  And, uh,
• 21:59
  I was just lucky the crew chief at the time, Chris Gayle, got suspended.
• 22:03
  I can't even remember what for.
• 22:05
  I think it was Truck Arm Gap or something.
• 22:10
  I can't even remember.
• 22:13
  That was a great opportunity.
• 22:15
  It was funny because that was the same two weekends that Diff was commentating on NBC when they were calling him the English guy.
• 22:25
  But, uh, yeah, we had a great time and, uh, you know, that weekend after at Michigan, the second race I did, you know, we were running one, two, you know, the 78 was winning with Martin, we were second and we were going to have, you know, Furniture Rose first ever won two.
• 22:38
  And then a late caution came out and we had a green, white checker at the end and, you know, I fell apart and we finished second and third.
• 22:46
  I can't imagine what the plane ride home would have been like that day if we'd pulled that off.
• 22:51
  If you'd won it.
• 22:52
  At the height of the powers of the whole furniture row operations, mate, the owner shuts the team.
• 22:59
  You're basically, in a sense, out of work.
• 23:02
  How big a shock was that for you all?
• 23:06
  Yeah, it sucked.
• 23:09
  It was bad because obviously in 2017, we were two cars and then went back to one car in 2018.
• 23:17
  And a lot of that all stemmed, I think, you know, from the Carl Edwards decision, you know, when he had that shock retirement, you know, and I think there's so many different stories and I don't really know which one is correct even to this day, but you know, I think that put a spanner in the works.
• 23:37
  you know, of where Toyota drivers were going to be.
• 23:40
  And, you know, they had to find, you know, essentially Suarez had to go to JGR to fill that void in the 19 at the time.
• 23:48
  So really we only had the budget to run, you know, the one car.
• 23:54
  And I think after Barney had won that championship, you know,
• 24:00
  you know, he'd accomplished what he had wanted and he'd put in so much money over the years, you know, of his own money and family money.
• 24:08
  And, you know, the, the children, his kids were coming up in the business and starting to, you know, want to do different things with furniture row.
• 24:15
  And I think the racing, you know, had a little less of, you know, the priority, you know, it, it became a little bit more of a drain on the, you know, on the bank balance and.
• 24:27
  We had good funding with Bass Pro and 5-Hour Energy and auto owners.
• 24:32
  And then really the nail in the coffin was, we've got a phone call in 5-Hour, we're going to pull out.
• 24:39
  And that was like a $10 to $11 million hole that we had to fill.
• 24:46
  They tried really hard and, you know, we thought that maybe it was going to happen and we could keep going.
• 24:53
  But, you know, ultimately just they weren't able to put a deal together between all the parties.
• 24:59
  And I think it was – I was actually back out in Australia in 2018.
• 25:04
  It was like August after the Bristol race.
• 25:07
  I had to go back to get a new visa before I started my green card stuff.
• 25:12
  And Cole rang me and he's like, no, it's dumb.
• 25:15
  you know, it's definitely not going to happen.
• 25:17
  And, uh, I'm like, Oh, gee.
• 25:20
  So like that was really, uh, really disappointing.
• 25:25
  Cause you know, it's just like, okay, what now, you know, going to have to move back to North Carolina and that kind of really flipped all of our worlds upside down.
• 25:34
  Cause you know, that, that affected everybody that worked there, you know?
• 25:37
  Um, and you know, we went, kept going for the rest of the year and,
• 25:44
  We came down to within a handful of laps of winning the championship again in 2018.
• 25:50
  Unbelievable.
• 25:50
  I think that caution didn't come out at the end.
• 25:53
  We would have won, but the 22 was just better on a short run that night.
• 25:58
  He passed us and we finished second.
• 26:03
  So it was a really hard way to go out with such a great group of people.
• 26:09
  I'll never forget those years.
• 26:12
  You did, you know, in the wake of all that, get some pretty good job offers, and you picked Joe Gibbs Racing.
• 26:20
  So for people that are listening that aren't maybe necessarily deep into NASCAR, I mean, Joe is a sporting icon.
• 26:29
  I mean, we're talking three Super Bowls as coach with Washington.
• 26:32
  He then goes car racing with success.
• 26:34
  I think there's been two-wheel bike stuff as well, dirt bike stuff.
• 26:36
  I mean –
• 26:38
  huge opportunity there mate.
• 26:40
  And with a natural connection, I guess, to what was Furniture Row before in some respects too, hey.
• 26:44
  Yeah, that was just, it was such an easy transition really.
• 26:50
  You know, and we were lucky, you know, we could have all gone and worked, as you said, at other teams.
• 26:56
  But we wanted to also stay together, you know, and the core group of us, you know, came across.
• 27:03
  I think there was probably nine or 10 of us in total, all through different positions, just not on the 19 team that came across to that car with Martin.
• 27:14
  And yeah, we were lucky we were able to continue it on.
• 27:17
  And obviously JGR at the time, it was like 500 people.
• 27:21
  You know what I mean?
• 27:23
  Unreal.
• 27:23
  Maybe even more back then.
• 27:25
  That was kind of.
• 27:27
  at the heart of its people back then in 2019 before the whole pandemic stuff changed a lot of things.
• 27:33
  But, uh, you know, it was just, it was a great opportunity and, uh,
• 27:39
  you know, we knew so many people, the processes were the same.
• 27:42
  It was really a smooth transition.
• 27:44
  And the hardest thing was just, you know, moving back here again to North Carolina.
• 27:48
  And my wife actually stayed out there for a couple of years just because she had her friends and, you know, she had her career and job that, you know, so we decided that, you know, we had to,
• 28:02
  move apart for this to work.
• 28:03
  And that was hard.
• 28:04
  I was living in a little box apartment by myself with a bean bag and a desk and a bed.
• 28:09
  And that's how I lived for two years.
• 28:12
  But I made sure when I did my deal with Joe Gibbs, I'm like, you need to sponsor me for a green card.
• 28:20
  Excellent.
• 28:21
  And that was one of the big things because then it gave us the stability that we could stay here forever.
• 28:27
  Yeah.
• 28:28
  What's Joe like?
• 28:29
  Take people there.
• 28:30
  I mean, he sounds like an amazing leader.
• 28:32
  How much do you have to do with him?
• 28:35
  Does he treat it like a footy team in some ways?
• 28:38
  He's an amazing individual.
• 28:40
  Like, he's – even to this day, what, he's – is he around 80 years old now?
• 28:46
  Like, he's in there.
• 28:47
  He's in there every day and he's in the thick of everything, you know, and he does not slow down and –
• 28:55
  If he's not at the shop, he's on his plane somewhere visiting a sponsor or shaking hands somewhere or doing a talk somewhere, like, his work ethic is out of control.
• 29:05
  And, you know, he's getting up there now.
• 29:13
  he has a lot of stories, you know, he'll stop by.
• 29:15
  And every time he comes into the office, we'll hear a different football story.
• 29:20
  And it's, it's, it's cool to, you know, you know, relive some of those things with him.
• 29:24
  And it's just, he's had an amazing career and obviously he's super passionate and he cares about his people, um, which, you know, which is a, it was a massive thing.
• 29:34
  You know, they, they don't just, they just don't talk about it.
• 29:38
  They actually, you know,
• 29:40
  they do things to help their people and all their charities and everything.
• 29:44
  They're just great people and a great family.
• 29:47
  And, you know, it's hard for him.
• 29:49
  He's now lost both of his sons, you know, it's, he's the last one standing.
• 29:53
  It's I just don't, wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
• 29:56
  It's just the way he just keeps going every day and inspiring everybody is, yeah, it's incredible.
• 30:03
  Can you share with us, mate, post-COVID, what the enormity of that team is still like?
• 30:09
  I mean, I think there's still four cars in the main series, how many people at base, planes that the team owned to sort of transport, everything.
• 30:16
  I mean, it's a big, big deal still, isn't it?
• 30:19
  Oh, yeah, it's massive.
• 30:20
  So, yeah, we still have, yeah, four-cup cars.
• 30:24
  You know, we still build, do all the bodies and everything for the 2311 cars.
• 30:29
  So effectively preparing six-cup cars.
• 30:32
  it's three X-Men Indy cars, an Arca car.
• 30:36
  You run the test team for Toyota.
• 30:40
  Obviously all the wind tunnel stuff for Toyota, you know, there's still, last time I think I got told there's still around 400 people, you know, here.
• 30:51
  I'm probably wrong on that, but that's what I got told the other week.
• 30:54
  But yeah, there's a lot of people and it's just,
• 30:58
  a people business.
• 30:59
  You know, you need the best people.
• 31:01
  And we're lucky.
• 31:03
  There's just so many talented people in each department that helps us, you know, turn out the cars we do every week.
• 31:10
  Have you become a better kind of people manager as a result of all that?
• 31:13
  I mean, you studied engineering, but it becomes a people game, James, doesn't it?
• 31:17
  It does.
• 31:18
  And, you know, I think I've gotten a lot better.
• 31:21
  I don't know.
• 31:22
  I can't critique myself, but I try to do my best and,
• 31:27
  It's just one thing I always make sure it's got to be fun.
• 31:31
  You know what I mean?
• 31:32
  Like you've got to be having fun.
• 31:35
  The amount of hours and the grind and the amount of time we spend with each other, you know, most of us see each other more than we see our families.
• 31:44
  You know, it's, uh,
• 31:47
  it's, it's a difficult sport and, uh, we always make sure we're having fun and joking around.
• 31:52
  And I think we're the envy of a lot of teams, especially in our building.
• 31:55
  Like everyone wants to come and work with us.
• 31:57
  You know, we've got such a great group of people and, uh, we all, we're all friends, you know, we want to hang out together.
• 32:07
  Um, we're all there for each other and support each other.
• 32:09
  And it's just, we have a great culture on our team and, uh,
• 32:13
  And I'm very lucky just to work with all those people.
• 32:16
  So I just, my mum always said, always treat people as you want to be treated.
• 32:21
  So that's, I always try and make sure I listen to that.
• 32:25
  Lovely memory, mate.
• 32:26
  And on your work, sort of fun scenario, when I worked with the late Barry Sheen, he would always say before every broadcast we would do, when you would have been there at Supercars and so on, he said, here, let's have a laugh.
• 32:38
  It always had to be fun.
• 32:40
  That was his kind of mantra.
• 32:43
  You mentioned about just what a marathon it is, right?
• 32:46
  Like how long the season is and so on.
• 32:50
  Talk strategy for us, if you can, that goes into each event, the game plans for each race, kind of how many playbooks do you have and how prepared are you?
• 33:00
  How prepared can you be for every possible outcome in that game?
• 33:04
  Yeah, like in terms of that, it's difficult.
• 33:07
  So, but like on a week, you know, a lot of our weekly work is all, we're pretty much preparing for the race with the way the formats are.
• 33:18
  Like we have such a short practice.
• 33:19
  So your whole week and your whole weekend is really set up by what you're doing back in the shop, you know, in terms of all your simulation work and your setup and your decisions you're making there of like where you want the balance to be
• 33:33
  you know, what you think the track conditions are going to be, you know, what you think the pace is going to be, then how it's going to, what's the weather going to be, which way is the wind blowing?
• 33:41
  You know, there's so many little aspects that have such an effect on the performance.
• 33:47
  And then on top of that, you know, you've got to do all the little things and, you know, and like,
• 33:53
  for technical inspection and make sure you're pushing it, you know, you're getting the most out of the car and all these different little areas.
• 33:59
  Cause it's just the sum of everything is so tight now.
• 34:04
  It all just comes down to details and, you know, the sum of all those little details is what can make the difference.
• 34:10
  And, you know, you can make decisions or assumptions during the week that, you know, it can be right or wrong.
• 34:18
  And,
• 34:18
  it doesn't matter what happens on Sunday, your car's going to suck.
• 34:21
  You know what I mean?
• 34:22
  Like if you, so you spend, you know, all my time and you know, the engineer's time during the week is just, you know, trying to go through all those scenarios, just more on a car performance level and setup level.
• 34:34
  And, uh, so that's a big thing.
• 34:37
  And just having a plan for when you get to the track and when you unload, if the car's doing this, doing that, like what's the most efficient effective ways?
• 34:44
  Cause you have such limited time and, uh,
• 34:48
  Really, that's the key part of structuring a week and making sure you have a smooth and efficient weekend.
• 34:55
  The race stuff and the strategy stuff is very different on a week-to-week.
• 35:01
  It all depends on where you're going.
• 35:02
  You have a high fall off track or if it's going to be a fuel mileage race.
• 35:07
  A lot of things can be dictated on.
• 35:09
  you know, where you qualify, you know, that might, you know, change the way you do things and, you know, set up the students you make overnight from Saturday to Sunday, you know, because just depending on the cars are so traffic sensitive.
• 35:22
  And there's so many things like you really don't have enough hours in the week, to be honest, to actually go through it all.
• 35:32
  Yeah, it's just the main thing to a successful week is just getting that, honestly, just getting the car right.
• 35:38
  And then if you have a fast car, the strategy becomes a lot easier.
• 35:41
  But it's when you're slow that's the problem.
• 35:45
  That's when you've got to do silly stuff.
• 35:47
  Tell me about nerves.
• 35:48
  Tell me about...
• 35:49
  intensity for you because every call in in many ways falls with you when to pit how many tires how much fuel what changes to make to the car that is a hell of a lot of pressure james yeah it is um i don't really get nervous i never really have um but
• 36:11
  you know, I, I, I question myself a lot or I'm hard on myself, you know, if I feel like I've made, you know, a bad decision or, um, but yeah, there's a lot going on and these races are so hard to win and it can come down to small little things.
• 36:29
  Like, you know, you've got to be thinking ahead.
• 36:33
  What's the track going to do here to, you know, when you come in the pit, do I need to adjust even though I don't have a problem now?
• 36:38
  Is it going to transition this way?
• 36:39
  You know,
• 36:40
  And then, you know, some of these races, there is a lot of strategy in terms, like there's high fall off races and it's just like, okay, you're always weighing up the risk versus reward.
• 36:51
  And, you know, if you need to pit here or pit then, or if you short pit somebody or what are the problems with that?
• 36:57
  There's a whole lot going on.
• 37:00
  you know, some of these races are easy and other ones are really difficult.
• 37:05
  And, you know, you've racing against, you know, 35 other guys that are all trying to outsmart each other.
• 37:10
  And, you know, there's a lot of competitive cars and,
• 37:15
  It's just extremely hard to win one of these races.
• 37:18
  You need to be perfect these days.
• 37:21
  You need to be good on pit road and call a good race, have good restarts.
• 37:26
  Like it's not a straightforward thing at all.
• 37:29
  So that's why when you win, it's actually, it's a huge accomplishment, you know.
• 37:34
  You get to work with Martin Truex Jr., one of the biggest names in the sport.
• 37:40
  I think you've been quoted elsewhere as saying he's not the kind of guy that gets stressed.
• 37:44
  He's certainly not a drama queen.
• 37:46
  Tell people what Martin Truex Jr. is like to work with and what your relationship is like.
• 37:51
  He's a...
• 37:53
  There's two Martins.
• 37:55
  There's a 20-23 Martin, which he's a whole different beast, but he's a...
• 38:03
  He's a super down to earth guy, you know, most lovely guy, nicest guy ever.
• 38:09
  You know, he, uh, he's always been pretty quiet, uh, kept to himself a lot.
• 38:15
  Um, you know, has a couple of captain and coax and, you know, you can't shut him up and he's hugging you and, but, uh, he's such a great dude and he, he doesn't, you know, some drivers think.
• 38:32
  I think they know everything.
• 38:33
  You know what I mean?
• 38:34
  Like he just comes in, he tells us what the car's doing.
• 38:37
  He knows what a good car needs to feel like, or, you know, for a certain track, he knows what he needs a car to do at Richmond, or he knows what the car needs to do at Darlington, or what it's going to do in the race.
• 38:48
  You know what I mean?
• 38:48
  Like he's, it makes it quite easy to work with him, you know?
• 38:55
  And he just tells us what to do, like what he needs to do better, you know, and obviously we have to prompt him and all those things.
• 39:02
  But, and then he just leaves us alone.
• 39:05
  You know what I mean?
• 39:05
  Like he has trust in his team that he's always been like this, that we'll figure it out.
• 39:11
  And, uh,
• 39:12
  you know, and he just goes and does his own thing and rolls back up the next day.
• 39:16
  So that side is, you know, it's very, very easy to work with.
• 39:21
  And, you know, he's just one of the guys.
• 39:24
  He just loves being there with us and hanging out.
• 39:26
  And, you know, we're all got the same goal and try and work together to make the best car possible.
• 39:32
  And, you know, he's, yeah, he's the most easy driver I've ever worked with, to be honest.
• 39:38
  Yeah.
• 39:39
  We've talked a bit about the Aussie accent in that paddock.
• 39:43
  I think there was a great comment in some of the commentary over the weekend from Daytona about, you know, you can't miss the Aussie accent when you're on the radio, which we love, mate.
• 39:55
  Tell us about being an Aussie in that club, if you like, in that paddock and...
• 40:01
  being embraced.
• 40:02
  I can recall talking to Marcus Ambrose for the podcast and him expressing the importance of kind of being accepted by the club.
• 40:11
  Yeah.
• 40:13
  They still give me shit sometimes.
• 40:18
  We were in a meeting the other day.
• 40:20
  We were talking about...
• 40:24
  they were like, I can't even remember the word.
• 40:26
  And they're like, Oh, that must be the Aussie name for it or something.
• 40:29
  Like people look at me and like, what are you talking about?
• 40:33
  And, uh, but, uh, no, I've, you know, I'm lucky that they've accepted me.
• 40:39
  No one, you know, I think they've seen the, you know, I work hard and I, I can do a good job, you know, a lot of the time.
• 40:48
  And, you know, people just respect that, you know, like, um,
• 40:54
  I think no matter where you're from or who you are, if you have all those qualities, I think ultimately people that have a clue are gonna accept and listen and take on your opinions.
• 41:09
  And I'm lucky I've been able to work with a lot of really good people everywhere I've been and they've all been great towards me.
• 41:19
  And yeah, couldn't ask for anything more.
• 41:22
  Can we talk about what it feels like to win one of those races as a kid who was passionate about the Thunderdome that had an interest in magazines and things about NASCAR and had, had been around it to be a winner.
• 41:37
  I think was it Martin Martinsville was your first, wasn't it?
• 41:40
  What does that, what does that feel like?
• 41:42
  Martinsville 2020.
• 41:43
  So, uh, it was a weird way to win a race too.
• 41:47
  Cause we just came back in and we're obviously the,
• 41:51
  the pandemic was on and we're at the track wearing masks and there wasn't any fans and we didn't really have a victory lane.
• 41:58
  And, but still it was, yeah, it was, it was a incredible feeling, you know, quite an accomplishment, you know, it's still to this day, you know, the most important thing I've done in my career, you know, you've got Bathurst and all that, but coming over here and after everything,
• 42:18
  you know, we'd gone through to get to that point and all of that, it was a huge accomplishment and a day I'll never forget.
• 42:25
  And, and, you know, to win at Martinsville is just such a cool, cool place.
• 42:30
  Like it's, I grew up watching all those races and, uh, you know, you saw like Jeff Gordon and Jimmy Johnson, you know, kind of dominate that track for years and, uh, you know, to go and do it and get my first win there was something I'll never forget.
• 42:45
  So, uh,
• 42:46
  Yeah, it's just, it would have been a bit more fun if we weren't in masks and could, you know, have a little bit of a party.
• 42:53
  Yeah.
• 42:55
  You don't get to savor it for all that long, do you?
• 42:58
  Because the tour then moves on next week to something else and you're back into the swing of things.
• 43:03
  I mean, I'm sure it's a memory that you cherish, mate, but you have to keep moving, don't you?
• 43:09
  You do.
• 43:09
  It's like straight back.
• 43:11
  You're back to work on Monday and you're working on the next week.
• 43:14
  You know, there's no time...
• 43:16
  you know, you savor it for that night and, you know, you go to work on Monday and your day's a lot nicer and you walk around and thank everybody.
• 43:23
  And, you know, it's, there's a little less pressure that week, but ultimately you kind of forget about it and you, and you move on.
• 43:32
  It's like, uh, it's like you're in a washing machine on a different cycle.
• 43:36
  It's the same thing every week you're doing the same things.
• 43:39
  And, uh,
• 43:41
  You can go from being a hero one week to a complete loser the week after.
• 43:46
  It's that easy in the sport.
• 43:49
  That's also the beauty.
• 43:50
  If you have a bad week, you can just put it behind you and you concentrate on the week after and you can go and win again.
• 43:56
  You don't have to dwell on it for too long.
• 43:59
  That is the cool thing.
• 44:00
  How about, though, when you go through a stretch where you don't win because it is an ultra-competitive game?
• 44:07
  And I know there have been times there, mate, where you guys have had, when you look back in other seasons, where you've had a fast car but maybe just little things weren't right for whatever reason and that has to be a bit soul-destroying at times too, doesn't it?
• 44:25
  It is, you know, and I feel like I'm sure a lot of teams can say this, but I feel like since working with Martin, there's been so many opportunities, you know, we've had race winning cars and things go wrong.
• 44:40
  Like, I feel like we've lost more races than we've won by far, you know, and it's just, it's hard.
• 44:46
  You put so much effort in every week and you can just, you know, one small thing and you walk away on Sunday kind of crushed, you know?
• 44:55
  And, you know, it's 2020, we won that one race.
• 44:59
  And then there, we had a lot of opportunities the rest of the year and it's just, it didn't happen.
• 45:05
  You know, we weren't, as I said before, you need to be perfect.
• 45:09
  You know, you can't have small mistakes on my side, on the pit crew side, on Martin's side, you know, mechanical issues, or it's just so many little things and I feel like.
• 45:19
  you know, that happened again last year, you know, 2021, we had a really good year and we won all those races and, you know, we were within 20 laps of winning the championship until we had to make that last pit stop and to go through last year and, and you had so many ups and downs and we had so many good races that just didn't, you know, we didn't win, you know, we had issues, uh, yeah, multiple issues and,
• 45:46
  I said to someone, I think before that last race at Homestead, second or third to last race, I think we found every way to lose a race this year.
• 45:54
  And literally we found another way that day by getting turned on pit road.
• 46:00
  So while leading.
• 46:00
  So, you know, I think hopefully looking forward to this year, you know, I hope it's going to be a lot better.
• 46:08
  I feel confident.
• 46:10
  It has started well for you, mate, in terms of the win at Los Angeles at the Coliseum.
• 46:16
  That must have felt damn good, did it?
• 46:18
  Yeah, definitely.
• 46:19
  You know, we have a – I feel like we have a different vibe, a different attitude this year.
• 46:25
  You know, Martin is – he's mad, as he said, and he's ready to go.
• 46:31
  And I feel like we have a point to prove.
• 46:33
  And to come out there and have such a good car and a strong showing,
• 46:40
  you know, was a great way to start the year and just gave everybody confidence, you know, that what we had been doing and what we're doing is still the right thing.
• 46:47
  And, you know, although it wasn't a championship race, it still, you know, meant a lot.
• 46:53
  And, you know, hopefully we can carry that through.
• 46:56
  And yeah, especially like last year there, we were terrible.
• 47:02
  We were just miserable at that race and to turn it all around and have the best car was,
• 47:10
  You've been really good with your time and I'm conscious we're over the time allocation that you've given us.
• 47:14
  So let's power through a few to finish so I don't hold you up, mate.
• 47:18
  Firstly, are you, if we're to draw a parallel, are you more Harry Hogg from Days of Thunder or Doc Hudson from the Cars movie in terms of playing crew chief?
• 47:28
  Which would you be more aligned with or neither?
• 47:30
  Oh, gee, probably Harry Hogg.
• 47:35
  Harry Hodge.
• 47:35
  Legend.
• 47:36
  Yeah.
• 47:37
  Legend.
• 47:37
  How long can you keep doing this for, James?
• 47:39
  How long do you want to keep doing it for?
• 47:41
  Are there, you know, supercars are about to get into Gen 3?
• 47:44
  Is there a want maybe one day to come back and try and win another Bathurst?
• 47:47
  What do you think?
• 47:48
  No desire to come home.
• 47:51
  No?
• 47:51
  You're entrenched there now?
• 47:52
  I'm entrenched here, so...
• 47:55
  As soon as I can get my citizenship, I'll be signing up.
• 48:00
  But, yeah, no, I want to be here for a while.
• 48:04
  There's a lot I want to accomplish.
• 48:07
  And, yeah, there's still...
• 48:13
  I feel like...
• 48:14
  I just don't feel like going back there would really do me any good, to be honest.
• 48:20
  You know, I think...
• 48:22
  there's still a lot to learn here.
• 48:24
  And it's just, this is where it's at.
• 48:27
  You know what I mean?
• 48:28
  Like outside of Formula One, I don't really think of any other series you wanna work in other than NASCAR.
• 48:34
  Like this, you know, people may think they're, you know, technically not superior, you know, like a bit agricultural, but behind the scenes and the technology involved and the things we do is, you know, you're not really gonna get to be able to do that in any other racing series.
• 48:50
  My buddy Lee Diffie tells me he was at a bar in New York City with you on the day that the call came through to say that you were going to be crew chief for Martin Truex Jr. And he vividly recalls the pride on your face, mate, but he's hugely proud of the fact that you've never changed.
• 49:08
  You've always kept, as you said before, from your mum, your feet on the ground.
• 49:12
  You are still, despite the challenge, despite how big the job is, the same James Small to this day.
• 49:19
  Yeah, I try to be like that.
• 49:21
  So, uh, but yeah, that was a cool day hanging out with Diff and, uh, you know, he gets a little loose, so he led me in Australia.
• 49:30
  I think we finished the night off with a few Diff G and T's or whatever he calls them.
• 49:36
  But, uh, I, yeah, Lee's been, uh, you know, he's been a great asset over here for me and he's helped me with a lot of things and, um,
• 49:46
  you know, we, we talk a lot and, uh, you know, he's introduced me to some other, you know, other great people and other Australians that I've met.
• 49:52
  And, uh, you know, just to see what he's done over here is just incredible.
• 49:57
  Like I don't think people in Australia actually understand how successful and big Lee Diffie is in America.
• 50:04
  Like he does everything, you know, he's, uh, you know, he's one of NBC's main guys, you know, so, uh, it's incredible to, you know, just see what he's been able to accomplish and, uh,
• 50:15
  I'm thankful that I can call him a friend.
• 50:18
  fittingly mate we're proud of what you've accomplished too we know that you've got more that you want to achieve on the way there I think you two were at an Aussie bar that night so that made a lot of sense in New York and for me mate this conversation today brings us full circle I think somewhere in the memory banks I did an interview with you as a young go-kart at Geelong way back when and now here you are in the States doing amazing things mate congratulations and thank you very much for coming on the podcast to talk with us
• 50:47
  Thank you for having me.
• 50:48
  I appreciate it.
• 50:55
  Rusty's Garage is written and presented by me, Greg Rust.
• 50:59
  Series editor and producer is Thomas Dullard.
• 51:02
  Audio production by Link Kelly.
• 51:05
  If you've got a guest suggestion, get in touch with me via social media.
• 51:09
  The Garage, that's where a journey begins with a tank full of passion-fueled stories.