Latest / DunkersPodcast / Creativity, Clay and Cold Water | Nicky Darnborough’s Coastal Journey

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Creativity, Clay and Cold Water | Nicky Darnborough’s Coastal Journey · DunkersPodcast

0:10
And welcome back to Dunker's podcast.
0:14
Today's guest has lived many lives.
0:16
Child protection solicitor, art teacher, world traveller and now
0:21
master of modern as a ceramics Potter with her own Manchester
0:24
studio. But that's just the surface.
0:28
She swims in wild waters around the globe, she crafts with fire
0:32
and earth, and she returns time and time again to the cold,
0:36
clear tides of Abasau, a loyal dunker with a home that's seen
0:41
more than it's fair share of tea towels and tails through.
0:45
This conversation won't follow a straight line, more like a
0:48
meandering river through secret valleys, unexpected turns and
0:53
magical pauses. So lean in.
0:55
This one's going to be soulful, surprising, and slightly spell
0:59
buying spellbounding. It's Nicky Darnborough, and
1:04
welcome to Dunker's podcast. Hello.
1:06
Hello, Mark. How?
1:07
Are you are you OK? Yeah.
1:09
Good. So you were, you were keen to
1:12
tell me that you've never done anything like this before and
1:15
that's fine, that's absolutely fine.
1:18
So tell me all about your the reason why you keep coming down
1:22
to Abersoch. Well, we have a house here and
1:27
my kids holidayed here when they all through their childhood
1:32
really. So that's why we come.
1:36
But I think in sort of more more recently, I've started swimming
1:44
in the sea. You weren't an ocean swimmer
1:47
before. No, no, not at all.
1:50
No. So I've always been a swimmer
1:53
and actually when I was, when I'd, I think when I was telling
1:58
my husband actually in in preparation for this and, and I
2:01
was saying, you know, when I was about 5 or 6 and my mum took me
2:07
to the local swimming baths to learn to swim your first breath.
2:12
And I think after three days, the swimming instructor said,
2:15
right, come on, you're doing your length and put me in at the
2:19
deep end and then wouldn't let me get out.
2:21
And I did 16 lengths in the first time I did a length.
2:26
And then he said, oh, come and join my swimming club.
2:29
So I don't know, I think some people have a bit more natural
2:32
buoyancy than others. But I think I was a natural
2:34
swimmer and then I was in a swimming club when I was
2:39
younger, you know, with, with my two sibs and, and then I think I
2:46
then I stopped. You know, when you're a teenage
2:48
girl, you're kind of. Well, boys.
2:51
Just, well, I think you just become adverse to it.
2:54
I think perhaps not now, but you know, I'm 62 now.
2:59
So when I was, when I was 12/13, it wasn't cool to be sporty.
3:05
So I just anyway, I just stopped and and then returned to it
3:10
probably when I was at university actually and I
3:14
started swimming when I was doing exams and I just found it
3:19
a stress reliever. So that and that was presumably
3:22
in pools warm just. In a just in a pool.
3:25
So how does cold water emerge? So what, so basically I, so I,
3:29
so then I just, yeah. And then I was a runner, so I
3:32
used to run with a group of friends in Chorlton on with, I
3:35
live near sort of Chorlton Meadows and Sail Water Park.
3:38
So there's a nice outdoorsy place to run.
3:42
So did that for about 20 years and then my hips and my knees
3:45
started niggling. So yeah.
3:48
So I just thought actually I think it was my sister-in-law
3:52
said don't run, don't run. So I just got back into swimming
3:56
because I'm a, I'm a little bit sort of ADHD.
3:59
I kind of have to do exercise to settle and.
4:04
That's your sort of way. Yeah, I, I so I'd, I sort of,
4:07
yeah, I like to do something active everyday.
4:10
I just find that's that's good for me, right.
4:13
So, and my well-being. When you're in Abasot, the actor
4:16
starts yes with the dunk. Yeah, so it, it, it does.
4:20
But I start, so went back to swimming in sort of Chorlton,
4:25
Manchester, started going swimming a bit more often and
4:28
then it was actually in lockdown, like a lot of people
4:32
discovered that there were women that swam in Sailwater Park
4:36
every day. So went down there and joined
4:39
the WhatsApp group and there's a huge, there must be about 60
4:44
people on that WhatsApp group. There's probably only about a
4:47
core of 20 that swim. Some people go every day and
4:53
it's quite big. It's about probably 2 miles
4:56
long. So you can have a good swim if
4:58
you want to. So that's where I started
5:01
outdoor swimming and then obviously when I came to
5:03
Abersock I thought amazing, we've got the sea, so went in
5:07
the sea and then just used to go in and then Helen, Helen Astles.
5:14
My friend down the hill, yeah, yeah, she.
5:16
She joined the dunkers and then she said, oh, come with me.
5:20
So that's how I got into the with the dunkers.
5:23
And, you know, Helen's always been the one to say to me, Mark,
5:26
don't keep recruiting people. There's too many people.
5:28
And there she is, yeah. So I think I sort of first had a
5:33
swim with the dunkers probably about two years ago, and then
5:38
whenever I'm down, I come down. And now, now I come down when
5:42
Helen's not there as well. Excellent.
5:44
Excellent. So because you've got a
5:46
background in water and water's very much part of your DNA
5:49
really now have you sort of big question in a way, have you ever
5:53
had a transformative moment when you've been swimming or whether
5:57
it either in the ocean or in the in the pool?
6:03
Not, not, not. I wouldn't say I've had a
6:05
transfer, I know, but but what I have started doing and I'm
6:11
actually going on my 4th swimming holiday next week to
6:15
Croatia and I'll just turn that off.
6:25
Yeah. So it's just my son.
6:30
So yeah, I've got to have a friend in Manchester, in
6:35
Chorlton. And, and she's, she's, she's a
6:39
really strong woman and she's had a bit, she's had a bit of
6:44
adversity in her childhood. Anyway, about 3 or 4 years ago,
6:49
we, we went on a little trip. We were supposed to go into
6:53
railing, but in fact we missed all the trains and ended up
6:56
getting buses. But we went to Eastern Europe
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and and she said to her, she goes on holiday on her own and
7:05
she said everyone should go on holiday on their own, especially
7:09
as a woman you know, and I know young people do a lot.
7:12
Now, yeah, they do don't. They, you know, when I was young
7:15
I didn't and I didn't know anyone who did it to be honest.
7:21
My husband did. Actually, my husband travelled a
7:23
bit when he was younger on his own.
7:26
It was even then though. Before I met him, yeah, we.
7:28
We're probably similar ages your husband and I and yeah I'm I'm
7:31
probably a bit old but not a lot but it was a lot easier for a
7:34
guy to do it. Yeah, it was to to find a female
7:38
on her own one inter railing or wandering around Yeah in the
7:41
hills of wherever was was more unusual it.
7:44
Was and, and I suppose we weren't sort of digitally
7:47
connected, so we didn't have that safety factor.
7:50
No, that's true. But anyway, so I thought, all
7:55
right, I'll go on holiday on my own.
7:57
And my friend, my other friend that was with us, she, she
8:02
booked this trek in in the Atlas Mountains.
8:05
And I thought, oh, what do I like doing?
8:08
And then I read about these swimming holidays.
8:11
So I booked on one of those. And in the end, my friend came
8:17
because she'd had, she'd had some quite, she had a lot of
8:22
sadness in her life at that particular time.
8:25
Her mum died and one of her, her close colleagues died.
8:29
So she wanted to come. So I said, oh, OK, you can come
8:31
with me. You know, it was supposed to be
8:33
my solo trip. So we had an amazing time.
8:36
So we went to Croatia. And this was just swimming.
8:39
This, yeah. So basically you, you, you go to
8:45
a particular place and you stay. They do do liver board ones, but
8:49
but this was where you stayed in a hotel.
8:51
And every day you get on a boat. It's just a small boat holds
8:55
about 10 to 15 people. And you go off to somewhere
9:00
which is like along the coast where it's quite sheltered and
9:04
you swim between 3:00 and 5K actually a day.
9:08
So you do 2 swims, you do one in the morning for about an hour
9:12
and 1:00 in the afternoon. They split you into groups
9:15
according to your speed. Everyone's a reasonably good
9:19
swimmer. But when I went, I couldn't even
9:22
swim crawl. So I went as a breaststroker.
9:26
I was going to say you blagged it through the.
9:28
Anyway, and no, no, because every, everybody, there was a
9:30
group from Bournemouth actually who were really good and they
9:34
used to swim across, they swam 2 miles a day in the sea right
9:37
there, about 6 of them. And then there was myself and my
9:40
friend Jane, and we were, we were breaststrokers.
9:44
And, but over the course of the week, these Bournemouth women
9:47
who were amazing swimmers. Like, one of them was something
9:50
like #10 veteran triathlete. They were really serious.
9:54
But yeah, and they taught, they taught me crawl and, and, and,
10:00
and there's two, there's kind of two guides and they give you a
10:02
few tips. So by the end of the week, I
10:05
swam crawl round the island, which was 3 1/2 K in.
10:10
So just just having the right technique and then and the.
10:14
Support of people that can. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:17
And then and then so I loved it so much that then the following
10:24
year I booked on another one with my friend Jane and we went
10:27
to Greece, I think, and we had an amazing time.
10:30
And then I just thought I'm going to go on another one on my
10:34
own. So I I went to Turkey and did
10:37
one, yeah. And you're off again.
10:39
This year and then I'm going, I'm going again.
10:41
But I met these two Irish women in Turkey, so I'm going with
10:46
them to Croatia. However, what it did, what it
10:49
did do for me, obviously I loved it because you sort of just,
10:54
it's just about the process. You're just swimming through the
10:57
sea along the you're not kind. You do swim from Ireland to
11:01
Ireland sometimes that kind of thing, but mostly the swims are
11:05
along the coast and and it's warm water.
11:08
It's warm. It's about usually 242526
11:11
degrees. So you can stay in that, yes,
11:15
that is, yeah. You don't.
11:16
Yeah, here you get. You don't get cold and you're
11:19
not swimming in a wet suit. You've just got a costume on,
11:22
right. So it's just like, it's just,
11:25
it's just gorgeous. It's just beautiful.
11:27
I know breath work is quite an important part of, of any
11:31
swimming, especially the crawl. Do you find, have you found,
11:35
especially being on going on these special holidays that it's
11:38
also a bit meditative that you you almost sort?
11:41
Of yeah, I think it. I think it.
11:44
I think it is, yeah. Yeah, you can.
11:46
Think you kind of unconsciously meditate when you're swimming
11:49
because it's you. I mean, we everybody talks and
11:52
you go out for a meal in the evening and you when you get on
11:55
the boat after the swim, everyone's nattering away.
11:58
But when you're swimming, you're kind of, you're on your own
12:02
really. And though you do swim as a pod.
12:05
Yes, I guess you would is that's the obvious safety thing.
12:10
No, it's just, it's just nice swimming as it's just, it's, you
12:15
feel like a fish because you, you kind of swimming and
12:18
everyone's speed is the same and you just kind of nobody's
12:23
splashing because you're just gliding through the water at a
12:27
kind of nice ambient pace. And, and you, as you turn to
12:32
breathe, you see the swimmer next to you.
12:35
And it's just, it's just like you feel like a synchronized
12:39
swimmer sometimes. It's just, it's just a lovely,
12:42
yeah, it's just a lovely feeling.
12:44
Right. Yeah, yes, it must be.
12:46
It must be. And do you find that?
12:48
Because obviously your background is swimming swimming
12:51
pools, so you're well into that. Do you find a major difference
12:56
in your swimming technique and your approach when you're
12:58
swimming in in nature, whether it well, you're, I mean, I do
13:02
wild I. Do wild swim as well and and you
13:05
know, if I'm now I can't go on a walk without there being
13:09
somewhere to go and have a. You always walk with the cosy
13:12
dude, yeah? Yeah.
13:14
But yeah, I don't. I mean, if I'm just swimming in
13:17
a in a somewhere on a walk, I probably just swim breaststroke
13:21
with my head out. Whereas if I if I on a swimming
13:24
holiday, I now swim front crawl but don't kick my legs.
13:30
Don't kick your legs. I was trying to teach.
13:33
You. I wasn't going to listen to it.
13:35
Where your hand hits the water, it's parallel with your shoulder
13:39
and you just, you glide through. So you're not making a splash.
13:43
You just you bring your hand down, your thumb skims your hip,
13:48
elbow out first and over again and and then you breathe every
13:52
three and your legs are like a they're like a fish's tail.
13:57
They just point your toes gliding behind you, occasionally
14:02
flipping like a fish. So that's what, that's what.
14:05
And then on another swimming holiday, was with a group from
14:09
there were two Australian groups actually I was going.
14:11
To say it's just one group, it's one group taught you one thing,
14:14
one's that taught you another. There's.
14:15
A group from Margaret River. Oh, right on the.
14:19
On the West Coast of Australia, northwest and there was another
14:23
group from, I think they were 50 miles away.
14:29
I can't remember where they were from and it was just
14:33
coincidence. Somewhere with a big jetty,
14:36
there was a big jetty, rock and hole or something and they were,
14:42
they all swam in the sea everyday and you know, quite a
14:46
bit, 2K2 miles, whatever. So they kind of gave you some
14:50
tips and they've got. That and the thing about
14:52
Australian swimmers is they've got livestock in a way that we
14:55
haven't got livestock, have we? I mean our jellies are bad for.
14:59
Some people do. Jellies bother you when you're
15:01
swimming. Do you know what I, I don't, no,
15:05
because I, I sort of, I've not really done long swims in, in
15:09
Wales. OK, I'd like to do the one from
15:13
the the thing. So the island.
15:15
Yeah, the island, but in a wet suit.
15:17
But yeah, in a swim wet suit. That is what.
15:20
I get too. Cold.
15:21
And he has insisted he's going to organise another one.
15:24
But he does insist, because part of his safety is he does insist
15:27
that you have to do it in, in a a wet suit.
15:30
Yeah. So yeah, but actually in Turkey
15:35
there was a huge turtle was swimming under us, which was
15:39
amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you've
15:42
got your goggles, so you'd be able.
15:43
To see clearly it was, it was, yeah.
15:46
And then obviously there's loads of nice fish and things, but no,
15:50
no, I think this actually yesterday when I was swimming
15:53
out along the boys, I did feel something.
15:57
Yeah. And I thought, oh, is that big
15:58
jellyfish? It did not.
16:02
Not enough to put you off. Your throat.
16:03
They don't. It's the tentacles, isn't it?
16:05
Yeah. Yeah.
16:06
They won't put me off. No.
16:07
So the the whole sort of connection with nature and with
16:11
swimming and having a relaxed and almost a sort of in a, in a
16:15
level of meditation, you've, you're obviously one to one with
16:18
the water. So that's that's a a part of
16:22
your life, which we know because that's the only part that we've
16:25
met. But when I was doing a bit of
16:27
digging around, you also got a a massive part, which is sort of
16:31
creative as well, aren't you? You're very creative, yeah.
16:34
And tell me a bit about that. Well, I suppose I was was.
16:39
And then I went to uni actually and started to do fine art.
16:43
I did an art foundation, did a year of fine art at Leeds Uni
16:48
and then in those days it was just taught really badly and
16:51
then didn't use sketchbooks. There was no process.
16:54
There was, it was just seemed very random and I just, I
16:59
couldn't cope with its randomness.
17:02
So I switched to and you know, a sort of a written academic
17:06
degree did that, but then. An academic degree in fine art.
17:10
No, no, I did. I actually did art history,
17:13
sociology. Oh, right.
17:14
Which was a bit like, I would say it's probably now was a bit
17:19
like I had Griselda Pollock as the she was like the main sort
17:24
of senior lecturer, but she was professor of art history at
17:30
Leeds. For OK.
17:31
For a long time actually, after after I left, she was a senior
17:34
lecturer then, but she's an amazing I was.
17:37
Going to say it sounds as though you were lucky with oh, she's a.
17:40
She, she was on front row. Actually, she won the Nobel
17:44
Prize for social science, OK. So it's social.
17:48
Science and humanities because she's made such a difference to
17:52
how we, how we view things in terms of, you know, I suppose
17:59
she's a big feminist, but so she's done a lot of work about
18:03
colonialism and feminism. So that was great.
18:06
I loved my degree. And then when I finished, I did
18:08
I, I want to go into advertising actually, but nobody would have
18:13
me. So I trained as an art teacher.
18:16
I taught in London for a few years and then I just, the kids
18:20
were just so naughty and I used to get ocular migraine all the
18:23
time. Then how can anyone do this as a
18:26
job? It was so hard so.
18:29
No, you're not your kids then. No, the kids and they gave me
18:33
all the year 9 classes and it was just oh and so I retrained
18:38
as I was I was thinking should I do social work or should I train
18:42
anyway? I did.
18:43
I retrained as a lawyer because you see, in those days it was
18:46
all free you. Could.
18:47
You could do a post grad for free.
18:50
So I retrained as a lawyer and did a post grad and then I
18:54
worked as a child protection solicitor for about 22 years.
18:59
Oh, 20 years. OK, so you Manchester City
19:02
Council. You really made the most of that
19:04
qualification when you finally. Found I did and I didn't.
19:07
I mean I, I have got 4 kids so OK you know, I'd only ever
19:12
really work part time, OK? And teach the art teaching side.
19:16
Did that ever, you know, while you were the as ACPS did the
19:20
art, Were you an art teacher also at the same time?
19:23
At weekends, no. God, no, no, all right, no, no.
19:26
But I always did as I started doing ceramics when I was about,
19:30
I think I did a course in Islington when I was on my art
19:33
teach training course, a night school adult Ed when they had
19:37
that and did a a pottery class and just loved it.
19:42
And after that I did, I just did a night school pottery class all
19:48
the time. Sometimes I think there was one
19:50
point where I was doing 3 a week.
19:53
In fact when I had my first child and I'd had loads of
19:55
pathidine, the midwife said I was saying I need to get back
20:00
to, I got to go and glaze my POTS and they said you're not
20:06
going anywhere love, you've just had a baby.
20:10
I will ask what you said after the other 3.
20:14
And then I had three more, but yeah, so, so I've always did
20:20
that. And then when I, I just got to a
20:23
point where I just had this overwhelming, it was so
20:27
stressful being a child protection solicitor.
20:31
I mean, overwhelmingly stressful.
20:34
You're just firefighting. I.
20:35
Was going to say because I'm a serious note.
20:38
Because of the amount of people you're representing or just
20:41
because of the hopelessness of the system?
20:43
Well. It's, I suppose it's because
20:45
it's so under resourced. So you've got, you're
20:47
representing social workers in care proceedings.
20:51
So it's very not always crisis LED, but a lot of it's, you
20:56
know, something will happen and like they'll have to take
20:58
emergency action and that kind of thing.
21:01
So you, you, you're often in court and in contested hearings.
21:06
And so, yeah. And it was anyway, I just, I
21:12
could, I just felt like my, my life was every month I was
21:16
there, my life was probably being shortened by about five
21:18
years. And I used to say to my younger
21:21
colleagues, I'm just, I can't do this anymore.
21:25
I think maybe I was like perimenopausal and you know,
21:29
and, and I think at that point it wasn't recognised so.
21:33
So nobody was going to define that that there's a, you have an
21:36
no. It was just like, you know, they
21:37
kept changing all the systems and I just, I, it was just like,
21:40
oh, and I just said I don't want to exchange my time for money in
21:45
this way anymore. I value my time more.
21:47
And fortunately we were in a position where I didn't, you
21:52
know, it wasn't crucial that because.
21:55
Your husband's a lawyer, isn't it?
21:57
My. Husband's a lawyer.
21:58
I mean, you know, we're not like massive earners or anything, but
22:00
we had enough our needs. Absolutely.
22:03
I think we, I think we'd still got one at we had a late child
22:06
so she was still at school and but, and now I'm paying our
22:11
university accommodation. It's.
22:15
OK, let me let me give you the heads up.
22:17
As soon as they leave school, you start to pay for something
22:19
else. It just kind of continues.
22:22
But yeah, so I just anyway, I, I, I left and, and kind of
22:30
somebody else who was also a lawyer, but coincidentally, but
22:34
who was in my community studio, clay studio in Manchester, which
22:38
is amazing. And, and we said, oh, should we
22:41
have a little coffee shop or something with ceramics and, you
22:45
know, do pottery and, and then we decided we didn't really want
22:49
to make cakes or coffee. So and then someone had asked me
22:53
to sell my stuff in the craft centre in their studio, so I was
22:58
in there anyway. And then a studio came free.
23:01
So we applied for that and we've had it now for six years.
23:03
OK, so we're Crag Jones, Clay. Crack.
23:07
Jones, Crag Jones. Crag, Jones.
23:09
Clay because I'm Nicky Jones, my my third Welsh.
23:14
OK. Ah, well, that's going to go
23:16
down, won't you? So I'm a Jones, but cheese crag
23:19
Sue crag. So so our our shop is our studio
23:23
shop. So there's a shop and a little
23:25
studio. So it's great because actually
23:31
there's AI mean we've done it for years and years and years,
23:34
but there's an awful lot of boomers now that are jumping on
23:37
the on the pottery bandwagon and decide which is great because
23:41
everyone should be creative and it's a really lovely.
23:43
Thing to do, TV's doing it great.
23:45
And there's there's the local, the Potter that's taking over
23:48
the place in Patelli. Patelli yeah, so but there's.
23:52
But The thing is they're all making stuff and then you end up
23:55
with all this stuff and what you do with it, whereas we have a
23:58
shop, so we sell it. So it's great and.
24:01
Can you get a coffee there at the same time?
24:03
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's the
24:05
Freddy's Cafe is in is great in the.
24:08
In the down, so it's like it's, it's, it's like a little sort of
24:11
there's 50 makers there's. 50. Makers in.
24:14
There there's I think there's about 23 studios and most
24:17
studios have more than one maker because you couldn't earn a
24:22
living from what you made and sell you.
24:26
Most people have a part time job.
24:28
Yeah. You know, we don't because we
24:30
kind of, you know, sort of we've kind of semi.
24:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But.
24:36
A lot of the younger ones, they have other jobs as well, Do
24:39
they? Yeah.
24:39
Do you think if you'd have had or did you use swimming as a
24:45
stress Buster or did you? Yeah, definitely, definitely.
24:49
So because it would sound pretty intense.
24:52
So when I was, I think I was a run when I was doing child
24:57
protection, I used to run about 3 or 4 times a week as a stress
25:00
Buster. But, and then when I was kind
25:05
of, then I, I did swim as well, but not that often just because
25:09
of time, you know, 4 kids running, working, couldn't fit
25:13
that in. But when I sort of eased out of
25:15
running, I then started swimming more and, and actually it's
25:19
fantastic in Manchester because you've swim for free if you're
25:23
60. So you can book on, you can go
25:26
as many times as you want in the week and it's all free.
25:29
So you go, you go in the morning and there's all these kind of
25:34
people, people swimming and there's we go about half nine,
25:38
like no half 8, usually 8 between 8:00 and 9:00.
25:42
But all the people who had to go to that thing work, work.
25:45
They go earlier because they have to go off to work.
25:48
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, there are advantages to
25:50
being 60 and above, you know, aren't they?
25:53
So yeah, so I do. And it's, yeah, I just it, it
25:57
kind of resets me for the day, but I just think cold water
26:01
swimming is something else. It's like it's massively resets
26:06
you and actually, you know, last year my mum got, she got
26:12
vascular dementia over the course of the last two or three
26:15
years and she died last July about a year ago.
26:22
And the, the year, the, when she was diagnosed, I was swimming in
26:27
sale with this group of women and I'd go down and I was so
26:33
stressed because I, you know, I was like, I think my daughter
26:36
was doing her A levels and I was, you know, like got my
26:40
little business, but mostly because I was sorting my mum out
26:44
and, you know, and having to myself and my brother were going
26:48
like one of us had to be there every day.
26:50
And what got me through that was going to sail.
26:55
We call it Sail Pond. It's like a going to sail.
26:59
And we, we go to Prawn Bay because someone found a take
27:03
away prawn floating in the, where we, there's a really nice
27:06
bit that's sort of really, you know, where we all go and
27:09
there's a deck and you get changed on and going.
27:12
And they were just, they were just the, the women there were
27:16
because you'd go for a swim. Then we'd all have a natter with
27:19
a cup of tea. And it was just a bit like the
27:21
dunkers, yeah. It reset you every day.
27:24
Every day and, and that, you know, every day they'd be going,
27:27
oh, you know, how's your mum? And, and it was interesting
27:29
because when I first she'd do these really funny things that,
27:33
you know, when you, you sort of, she stopped when she first got
27:37
dementia and, and I'd go, oh God, you never guess what she's
27:40
doing now. And I remember Marian saying to
27:43
me, well, you're laughing now, but I guarantee in six months
27:47
time you won't be. And she was right.
27:49
And then, you know, because it actually got worse and worse and
27:53
and. But for you?
27:55
I, I don't know how I would have got through that without going
27:58
swimming every day and you know, and them just that group being
28:01
so supportive. It's sharing isn't.
28:03
It and actually one of the one of the other swimmers is going
28:07
to something bad with a close relative and you know everyone's
28:11
really if she says oh anyone's swimming we'll all go yeah I'm
28:16
gal come. Right, right.
28:18
And, and, and I think it's that because I'm just sort of picking
28:21
up really from the the last few minutes that we've been talking
28:24
that your community, it keeps coming back, although you sort
28:27
of go out on holidays and, and indeed and the next holiday on
28:31
your own is going. To be meeting the 2 Irish but I
28:34
would go on. My own now, yeah.
28:35
Yeah. I have no qualms about going.
28:38
On my own, the whole fact of things that you've done have all
28:41
sort of gravitated around friends, be one or two or
28:46
community be like these the sale, the sale ladies.
28:50
And I I'm my friends and would normally never have done
28:54
anything on my own. I would have gone as a group of
28:56
friends or with my husband. Or do you think you?
28:59
Would have just a real personal question here.
29:01
Do you think you would have shared your experience and where
29:05
you were up in life if if, if you hadn't sort of had that
29:09
feeling? Because the thing about swimming
29:11
or dunking is the fact that you've all stripped off
29:14
together. You've all you've there's an
29:16
absolute levelness. There's no, there's no UPS,
29:19
there's no downs. There's no rich person.
29:21
There's no poor person. There's no talker, There's no
29:23
non talker. Well, there's few, but the it's
29:26
so level, so level and, and I'm just thinking that you've been
29:31
through some fairly stressful and challenging times and, and
29:35
obviously you're finding that that people are just just
29:38
dragging you along. The question is, would you have
29:41
shared if you hadn't been in those sorts of groups?
29:46
Shared. Shared Shared What you were
29:48
going through, do you think you would have kept it to yourself?
29:52
No, I don't think I'm that sort of.
29:53
I think I'm a heart on my sleeve sort of person to be honest.
29:57
So I think sometimes I possibly overshare.
30:02
But. You know, because I've got my
30:04
other friends that didn't swim, but I found the intensity of
30:09
that going for a swim and just, you know, waking up and feeling
30:13
really anxious people going, oh, be there at 8:00 or be there at
30:18
half 8 or whatever. And I go great.
30:20
And I go down, go in the cold water and I just would all that
30:24
stress would go you just it would be like and you just
30:29
everything would be calm and at one with the world.
30:32
Obviously it isn't because there's some terrible things
30:34
happening, but you would feel, you know, you would feel some
30:38
kind of yeah, it's like a everyone said it's like a reset.
30:42
It is absolutely. And for us down here, we, we,
30:46
we, we extend that reset in a way because we go, we add the
30:50
walk on to the end as well, don't we?
30:53
And I think that's that in itself is quite revealing
30:56
because you don't know, I mean, one of the, the backbones of
30:59
this podcast is to sort of, you know, people don't know about us
31:03
all and because we've all got back stories and clearly yours
31:06
is, is coming through this morning.
31:08
But the fact is that the walk does facilitate that.
31:12
Well, you can chat because if you're swimming and not.
31:15
Yeah, because people, some people just chat while they
31:17
swim, don't they? And then some people put the
31:20
head under so they can't. I won't say anything about even
31:24
Claire this morning. Just carry on.
31:26
Carry on, Nikki. But yeah, I think that, yeah,
31:30
that's great. And like they're in sale, You
31:32
know, the fact that everyone takes a flask and has it.
31:35
They they smell like, like the dunkers.
31:37
They swim all through the winter.
31:39
Right, right and OK, so. And then they have a, you know,
31:43
cup of tea whilst their teeth are chattering.
31:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then, then, then it makes it all
31:48
feel worthwhile. Yeah.
31:49
OK. But I don't, I just wanted to
31:52
say something. I know that you were quite
31:53
interested initially when you spoke to me and said, oh, I'm
31:57
quite interested about you going on your own on holiday.
32:00
So I am and, and I just, you know, if anyone's sort of
32:04
thinking of doing that, because when I did it, when the, when I
32:08
booked it, I, I must have phoned the guy who runs this swimming
32:14
organization about three times. He's called Baru and I was
32:19
saying, well, who else is going then?
32:22
So who, who will be there and will I be your and what are the
32:25
ages of people who were going and are they all couples?
32:28
And and he was going, Oh, Nikki, you will be fine.
32:32
Yes. There's lots of people on on
32:35
their own and you will be fine. In fact, I think I think when
32:40
that the first one I went to with my friend Jane, there was
32:42
this group. And obviously if you're on your
32:45
own, people include you. Yes, you know, but I was like,
32:50
oh, everyone will be in couples and I feel like I'm
32:53
gooseberrying and no one will want to go out and eat dinner
32:56
with me in the evening. But it just, it was just so easy
33:00
and it was fine and you know. And you, you really, you're an
33:05
advocate of it, aren't you? Of of this sort of I.
33:08
Think I'm, I don't think I'm a particularly, I'm not a shy
33:10
person, but Even so, I was a little bit anxious about who
33:15
will be on it. And, you know, but actually it's
33:19
it, I don't think it really matters.
33:21
No, it's what, what I would say now, even if they were all
33:25
couples, I don't think it would matter.
33:27
Even if they were all in their 20s, I don't think it would
33:29
matter. It didn't seem as though because
33:33
you've. Got a shared love of swimming
33:34
and everyone's chilled because they've all had a great day.
33:37
They wouldn't, they wouldn't be on that sort of holiday if it
33:40
did matter, would they? That's the point.
33:42
It's it sort of breaks. OK, so I'm going to go
33:46
completely 180° on this. So because obviously you're sort
33:50
of saying that you just just go and if there's holidays and you
33:53
feel like going on your own and just just do it.
33:57
So if I said to you, if there was one place in the world you
34:00
could dunk and with one person, who would it be?
34:05
Oh gosh, that's yeah. Do you know, I really I loved
34:12
the lake in I'll have to say with my husband or he'd be
34:16
really upset, but I did love I loved the that lake in near the
34:24
rhinos in North Wales. You know, yeah, I don't know.
34:29
That I don't know that it's it's in that book.
34:31
OK, you know the one. It's so it's, it's kind of I
34:35
just thought it was, it was gorgeous because.
34:37
You swimming walks. Yeah, it was high.
34:40
You were high. You'd had a a three hour trek to
34:43
get there, right? And it was this beautiful, cold,
34:46
Big Lake. Ohh, Top, the one we were
34:48
talking about before we came on there.
34:50
Yes. Gorgeous.
34:50
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
34:53
So my that was the that was. The one with all the kids.
34:55
You have to say my swimming buddy Jane, OK, because she's
34:59
she's, we've been on this journey together.
35:02
Have you? Yeah, Yeah.
35:03
You know, we started sort of cold swimming together.
35:06
She she goes to the lakes a lot and swims in the lakes and I go
35:10
with her. OK.
35:11
There sometimes. So you encourage each other?
35:13
Yeah, we do very much. So that's.
35:15
That's excellent. Yeah.
35:17
OK. So if OK, I'm difficult
35:20
question, but it might not be if I was to sort of say what
35:24
defines you as you, what you know, what's the furniture of
35:28
your life? What would you say is you or is
35:31
it just you? Tell me what?
35:35
Oh God, that's really hard. I wish she'd I wish she'd pre
35:38
warn me. No, I.
35:39
Don't. I can't pre warn you.
35:40
What defines me? I like to be creative.
35:46
I like to be active. I suppose that's really hard.
36:01
OK, I think I like to feel like I'm.
36:03
I think I like to feel that I'm I'm, I'm living a, a kind of a
36:14
life where I feel a sense of well-being and holistically
36:20
well-being and but also that, yeah, I suppose you go through
36:33
different phases in your life, don't you?
36:35
And at the moment, because my youngest child, as she sort of
36:41
left home two years ago to go to uni two years in September and
36:47
then my mum became I'll. So I suppose I'm, I was, I was
36:51
for a time, that kind of sandwich generation where you're
36:54
caring at both ends. So I'm, I'm what defines me.
36:59
I don't know. I at the moment I'm feeling a
37:02
little, I'm fit. I feel awful about this, but I'm
37:05
feeling a little bit selfish because I'm feeling as though I
37:08
want to live my life at the moment and that's what I'm
37:12
doing, just going on these swimming holidays and, you know,
37:18
but I suppose I think, you know, my family is important.
37:24
I like to feel that I'm altruistic.
37:26
What defines me? Don't don't dig any deeper.
37:30
I mean, I don't know. What defines me?
37:32
My husband would say you're just an empty headed fool.
37:35
He would say you're just a busy fool.
37:37
Clearly he hasn't listen. He hasn't heard this.
37:40
But I don't know, I just, I, I kind of do things that I, I find
37:47
I like to do things that and it's a funny word, thrilling.
37:51
But my friend Sarah uses the word thrilling a lot.
37:54
And it's an old fashioned word. But sometimes I do things and I
37:58
think, gosh, this is really thrilling.
38:01
You know, you just, I want to be thrilled.
38:04
Absolutely don't. We all don't.
38:05
We all. But The thing is, you're not.
38:07
If you're going to be a couch potato, you're not going to get
38:10
be thrilled are. You got to be I, I, yeah, I
38:13
suppose I I have to be active every day.
38:15
Have. So Nicky, just before I let you
38:18
go, I'm going to just you. You mentioned your husband a
38:21
moment or two ago. So what does he actually think
38:25
about you going on all these holidays on your own?
38:29
Well, quite, quite interesting when we both got to a point
38:36
where we were semi retired and my daughter had gone and
38:39
obviously my mum had died last year.
38:42
We, we, we reached a point where we were talking about what we
38:46
were going to do with the rest of our lives.
38:47
And we were in our third, third part of our life, third age.
38:53
And he was really strongly felt that he didn't want to travel
39:00
when he was in it, when he was a student.
39:02
And in his early 20s, he did a lot of travelling, you know,
39:05
India and Southeast Asia. And he lived in Japan, I think
39:10
for two or three years. He, he went to America in as
39:15
when he was before he was a student, South America.
39:20
So quite an. Accomplished traveller.
39:21
Yeah. And so he felt that he'd kind of
39:24
used his air miles and he and he, he said in the interest of
39:28
the climate, he didn't want to take any flights.
39:31
Whereas when I was younger I didn't do that.
39:33
And actually I, I was a member, I did was a paying member of
39:38
Just Stop Oil. So I felt quite hypocritical
39:41
really, but but I, I just felt that I did, you know, obviously
39:45
I would travel sustainably if I could.
39:48
I've just been into railing. But he said I just want to be in
39:53
Wales and explore North Wales. He said I don't, I don't feel I
39:58
want to do anything else. So that that kind of was
40:03
interesting because it also tied in with my friend saying.
40:07
Everybody should go on holiday on on their own.
40:10
It's empowering. It makes you feel if you want to
40:12
do something, you can do it. You don't have to be reliant on
40:16
other people. So he's kind of completely cool
40:21
with me going, but you just say, where are you going now?
40:24
Oh wait, where are you going now?
40:26
Would so would you say is the word I'm going to use probably a
40:29
bit strong? Would you say that that almost
40:31
gave you permission from him just to continue your life on
40:36
your own, doing something that frankly he was cool with because
40:40
he just didn't really want to join in?
40:42
Yeah, So, yeah. And he's Nick.
40:44
Yeah, absolutely. He he's fine.
40:47
I mean, he does other things. He likes music and things.
40:49
But yeah, so it's, it's that is completely fine.
40:56
And and it it's sort of free. It freed me up, yeah.
41:00
You're both on the journey, but you're just playing slight
41:02
slightly sort of different lines, but it's still going in
41:05
the same. And I think, you know, I've
41:08
talked to other, I've talked to other women and you know, who
41:13
have got male partners and, and they've quite a few have said
41:18
that that's really interesting because my husband's like that.
41:22
He doesn't want to go anywhere either.
41:23
He's happy just staying in the UK.
41:27
And and that's not particularly for supposed climate change
41:31
reasons, you know, they just haven't got that desire to do
41:35
it. In fact, it's Kathy this morning
41:38
that was dunking with me. I was talking to her about it
41:41
and she said she's got a good friend who's German and he
41:45
doesn't want to leave Germany. There you go.
41:48
So it isn't. Just an Englishman's problem.
41:52
So I think, you know, and it's interesting on these swimming
41:55
holidays, I would say 2/3 of the people are women.
41:58
Yes. In later life, really.
42:01
So, yeah, like me, OK, you know, and you, you do get one or two
42:05
men to say maybe 3 or 4 men in the group.
42:08
Yeah. But there's usually about 10 who
42:11
are women. OK.
42:12
So it's quite interesting. Yeah.
42:14
So whether you are a widow or a widower, it really there's a,
42:18
there's a, there's a tomorrow by going joining these sorts of
42:21
groups if you're a swimmer. Yeah, definitely.
42:24
I've got this tradition and we ask you a question that our
42:29
previous guest has left and I won't tell you who he is, but
42:34
the for you it's very appropriate I'm sure.
42:37
Have you ever skinny dipped whilst you've been donking?
42:40
Yes, there we go. Nikki, that's a very definite
42:44
thank you very much indeed for your time and and your energy
42:47
that you've shared with us just today.
42:50
And yeah, just thank you. And may the spirit of the
42:54
dunkers go with you. Thank you, Mark.
42:56
Pleasure.