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The Secret CIA Experiments You Weren’t Supposed to Know About · The Infographics Show Podcast

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the infographics. Everybody ready for another deep
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: dive always all right, So this time we're going deep
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: into some declassified CIA documents about Project MK Ultra.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this one's a doozy talk about a rabbit hole.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking mind control, cold war paranoia, LSD, some
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: seriously shady stuff.
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  Speaker 2: It's fascinating stuff, but yeah, definitely unsettling. It really shows
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: you how far people were willing to go.
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  Speaker 1: So before we get into all the crazy details, set
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  Speaker 1: the stage for us what was going on in the
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  Speaker 1: world that would lead to something like Mkultra.
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  Speaker 2: All right, so picture this. Yeah, it's the nineteen fifties,
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  Speaker 2: Cold War is in full swing, and there's this like
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  Speaker 2: this palpable fear of communism everywhere you go.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine.
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  Speaker 2: And there's this widespread paranoia that the Soviets have like
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: mass brainwashing techniques rate turning American POWs into these sleeper agents.
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  Speaker 1: Like out of a movie exactly.
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  Speaker 2: And this fear it wasn't just like a government thing.
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  Speaker 2: It was everywhere seeped into pop culture. You had films
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  Speaker 2: like The Manchurian Candidate, you know, and it provided this simple,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: albeit very inaccurate explanation for the complex rise of communism.
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  Speaker 1: Interesting, So fear was driving a lot of the narrative.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And to add fuel to the fire, you have
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  Speaker 2: Alan Dallis, the CIA director at the time. He gives
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  Speaker 2: this speech in nineteen fifty three where he denounces Soviet
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  Speaker 2: brainwashing tactics, calls them abhorrent, says they go against American values.
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  Speaker 1: Sounds pretty straightforward, right, condemning brainwashing, you.
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  Speaker 2: Would think so. But here's the twist. Just three days
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  Speaker 2: after this big speech Dully's Green Lights Project MK Ultra
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  Speaker 2: no way.
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  Speaker 1: He authorizes a program about mind control after publicly condemning it.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Yep, a top secret program to explore dot mind control.
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  Speaker 2: The irony is thick.
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  Speaker 1: That is some serious double speak. Okay, so what exactly
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: do they do in mkl tur it give us the rundown.
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  Speaker 2: Well, they tried pretty much everything you can think of,
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  Speaker 2: electroshock therapy, hypnosis, polygraphs. They even messed around with radiation seriously.
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  Speaker 2: And that wasn't all. They experimented with a whole bunch
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  Speaker 2: of drugs, toxins, chemicals, trying to figure out how to
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  Speaker 2: control people's behavior.
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  Speaker 1: It sounds like they were trying to crack the code
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  Speaker 1: of like human behavior modification.
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  Speaker 2: That's exactly it. And unfortunately they didn't just stick to
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  Speaker 2: lab rats. Oh, they used people for their experiments.
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  Speaker 1: That's disturbing. Who were these people?
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  Speaker 2: A lot of times they targeted the most vulnerable people
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  Speaker 2: they could find, mentally impaired, boys, soldiers, prisoners, anyone they
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  Speaker 2: could coerce or manipulate into participating.
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  Speaker 1: That's awful. Yeah, are there any accounts from people who
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: went through these experiments?
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  Speaker 2: There are? Actually Whitey Bulger, the Boston mobster, he was
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  Speaker 2: a test subject in prison.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Wow, I did not know that.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he wrote about his experience. He talked about being
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: given LSD and experiencing these terrifying halluci nation's paranoia, total
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  Speaker 2: loss of appetite LSD.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't realize that was part of it. What did
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  Speaker 1: LSD have to do with mind control?
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  Speaker 2: Well, rumors were spreading that the Soviets were experimenting with
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  Speaker 2: LSD and it like terrified the CIA.
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  Speaker 1: I could see why.
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  Speaker 2: They saw it as a potential weapon, so they decided to,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: you know, go on the offensive.
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  Speaker 1: So they were trying to weaponize acid.
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  Speaker 2: Basically, Yeah, they thought it might hold the key to
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  Speaker 2: like interrogation and control.
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  Speaker 1: What exactly were they hoping to achieve? I mean, besides
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: just like freaking people out.
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  Speaker 2: So they had all sorts of ideas, some more about
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  Speaker 2: extracting information, others were more sinister. They even explored the
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  Speaker 2: possibility of assassinating enemy leaders.
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  Speaker 1: Series.
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  Speaker 2: It was all about control, finding ways to manipulate people's minds,
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  Speaker 2: making them do what they wanted.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So you mentioned a safe house in San Francisco earlier,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Operation Midnight.
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  Speaker 2: Climax, Right, that's where things take a really strange and
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  Speaker 2: kind of disturbing turn.
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  Speaker 1: I'm almost afraid to ask, but oh, go on. Picture
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  Speaker 1: this a CIA run safe house in San Francis, decked
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  Speaker 1: out like some kind of I don't know, bachelor pad okay,
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  Speaker 1: and they had prostitutes bluring unsuspecting men there.
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  Speaker 2: Prostitutes seriously, Yeah, and.
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  Speaker 1: They were dosing these guys with LSD without their knowledge.
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  Speaker 1: The whole operation was overseen by this former Federal Bureau
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  Speaker 1: of Narcotics agent named George White. He just sit there
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  Speaker 1: behind a two A mirror watching these guys trip out.
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  Speaker 2: That is insane. What was the point of all that? Well,
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  Speaker 2: on paper, it was about studying the effects of LSD,
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  Speaker 2: but it's pretty clear that White had his own agenda.
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  Speaker 2: He seemed way more interested in sexual manipulation and information extraction.
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  Speaker 1: So basically using LSD to control people for their own
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  Speaker 1: personal game.
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  Speaker 2: You got it. And the scary part is how casual
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  Speaker 2: he was about the whole thing, like it was no big.
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  Speaker 1: Deal, zero regard for ethics exactly.
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  Speaker 2: It was a complete disregard for basic human decency.
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  Speaker 1: So how did this whole mk ultra thing finally end?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it ended pretty abruptly. In nineteen sixty three, a
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  Speaker 2: CIA staff member stop across evidence that they were using
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: non consenting human subjects, and well, that was pretty much
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  Speaker 2: the nail on the coffin.
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  Speaker 1: So they were exposed.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that, coupled with some new research ethics guidelines,
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  Speaker 2: forced the agency to shut the whole thing down.
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  Speaker 1: But that wasn't the end of the story, was it.
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  Speaker 1: What happened after the program was shut down?
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  Speaker 2: Well, in nineteen seventy seven, Congress held hearings to investigate
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  Speaker 2: mk ultra.
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  Speaker 1: Oh wow, so they were trying to get to the
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  Speaker 1: bottom of it.
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  Speaker 2: They were, but it was incredibly challenging.
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  Speaker 1: Why is that?
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  Speaker 2: Well, a lot of CIA staffers conveniently claimed to have
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: memory lapses convenient, right, And to make matters worse, it
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  Speaker 2: turned out that a whole bunch of mk Ultra records
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  Speaker 2: had been destroyed a few years earlier.
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  Speaker 1: To talk about it, cover up. It's crazy to think
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  Speaker 1: this was all happening at the same time as Nixon's
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: war on drugs.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty ironic when you think about it. But
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: speaking of irony, you mentioned the Manchurian candidate before, and
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  Speaker 2: MK Ultra definitely has that kind of spy thriller vibe. Right,
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  Speaker 2: But you know, the CIA wasn't the only one interested
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: in mind altering substances back then. Think about the counterculture
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  Speaker 2: movement and the explosion of psychedelics in the sixties.
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  Speaker 1: That's a good point. LSD and other psychedelics were almost
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  Speaker 1: synonymous with the counterculture movement. Did those two worlds, ever,
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  Speaker 1: like collide.
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  Speaker 2: It's a tricky question. There are definitely connections, but it's
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: more nuanced than just a simple yes or no. I
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  Speaker 2: mean some key figures in the counterculture had brushes.
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  Speaker 1: With Oh really, like, who are we talking about here?
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  Speaker 2: Well, think about Ken Kesey, the author of One Flew
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Okay, yeah, he actually participated in
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  Speaker 2: LSD experiments while he was a student at.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Stanford, and those experiments were.
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  Speaker 2: Funded by the CIA.
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  Speaker 1: No way, So the CIA kind of inadvertently helped kickstart
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  Speaker 1: the psychedelic era.
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  Speaker 2: It's a weird twist, right, but we have to remember
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  Speaker 2: the counterculture's use of psychedelics went beyond just getting high.
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  Speaker 2: It was a rebellion against, you know, societal norms, a
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  Speaker 2: search for spiritual enlightenment, a rejection of that Cold War mentality.
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  Speaker 1: So in a way, the CIA's attempt to control minds backfired.
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  Speaker 1: Instead of creating these obedient soldiers, they helped unleash a
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  Speaker 1: cultural phenomenon that challenged authority and embraced like individual freedom.
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  Speaker 2: You could definitely say that mkultra was born out of
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  Speaker 2: fear and a desire for control, but it ironically contributed
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  Speaker 2: to a movement about self discovery and liberation.
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  Speaker 1: That is wild. We've talked a lot about the CIA
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  Speaker 1: and the government, but what about the people actually involved
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  Speaker 1: in these experiments, the scientists, the doctors, the researchers. Where
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  Speaker 1: did they fit in.
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  Speaker 2: That's a question that has haunted historians and ethicists for decades. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's hard to say for sure. What motivated them. I'm
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  Speaker 2: sure some truly believe their work was essential for national security.
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  Speaker 1: Right, the ends justify the means exactly.
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  Speaker 2: Others might have been more opportunistic, you know, looking to
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  Speaker 2: advance their careers or just get funding for their research.
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  Speaker 2: And then there were probably those who are pressured, maybe
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  Speaker 2: even coerced into participating.
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  Speaker 1: It's a tough thing to wrap your head around, you know.
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  Speaker 1: The more compromises they must have made to be a
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  Speaker 1: part of something like this, for.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, and the long term psychological impact on everyone involved,
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  Speaker 2: both the researchers and the subjects, is still largely unknown.
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  Speaker 1: That's a chilling thought. It makes you wonder, how can
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  Speaker 1: we be sure something like this never happens again. How
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  Speaker 1: do you hold people accountable when so much the evidence
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  Speaker 1: is gone?
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  Speaker 2: That's the million dollar question, isn't it? That lack of
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  Speaker 2: accountability is one of the most frustrated parts of this
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  Speaker 2: whole story. It's like we're left with these puzzle pieces
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  Speaker 2: and half of them are missing.
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  Speaker 1: It feels like we're trying to look through this foggy
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  Speaker 1: window at a like shadowy past. Yeah, it's tough, but
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  Speaker 1: despite those missing pieces and all the unanswered questions, what
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  Speaker 1: can we learn from MK.
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  Speaker 2: Ultra, even with all the gaps in our knowledge, it
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  Speaker 2: serves as a cautionary tale. I see that it really
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  Speaker 2: highlights the dangers of unchecked power, the importance of ethical oversight,
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  Speaker 2: and the need to protect vulnerable people from exploitation. It's
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  Speaker 2: a reminder of what happens when national security trump's individual
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  Speaker 2: rights and ethical boundaries.
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  Speaker 1: A reminder that we need to constantly question authority, demand transparency,
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  Speaker 1: and hold those in power accountable. But on more positive note,
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  Speaker 1: the fact that we're even having this conversation is a
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  Speaker 1: sign of progress, right, definitely. I mean, these documents have
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  Speaker 1: been declassified, congressional hearings were held, and people are willing
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  Speaker 1: to talk about what happened.
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  Speaker 2: That's a huge step in the right direction. It shows
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  Speaker 2: that even with all the secrecy and cover ups, the
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  Speaker 2: truth has a way of coming out eventually. But you know,
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  Speaker 2: this deep dive into MK Ultra, it's just one piece
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  Speaker 2: of a much larger puzzle.
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  Speaker 1: That's true. It was all part of a larger pattern
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  Speaker 1: of Cold War anxiety and the I guess you could
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  Speaker 1: call it the weaponization of science during that era. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it's a scary thought that people were basically treated like
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  Speaker 1: lab rats in the name of national security.
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  Speaker 2: It definitely raises some serious ethical questions. I mean, where
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  Speaker 2: do you draw the line when does national security go
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  Speaker 2: too far right?
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  Speaker 1: And how do we prevent this kind of thing from
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  Speaker 1: happening again.
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  Speaker 2: Well, for one, we need more transparency. The fact that
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: so much of this was kept secret for so long
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  Speaker 2: allowed it to continue.
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  Speaker 1: And even now we still don't have the full picture
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  Speaker 1: because so many records were destroyed.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Exactly, we need to make sure that research, especially research
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: involving human subjects, is conducted ethically and with proper oversight.
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  Speaker 1: Accountability is key, right, making sure that people are held
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  Speaker 1: responsible for their actions.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that goes for the people who conducted these
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: experiments and the institutions that allowed it to happen.
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  Speaker 1: So what can we learn from all of this? I mean,
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  Speaker 1: mk Ultra was decades ago, but it feels like the
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: lessons are still relevant today.
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  Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely. It's a reminder that power corrupts and that
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: even in a democracy, we can't take our freedoms for granted.
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  Speaker 1: We need to stay vigilant right always.
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  Speaker 2: We have to be willing to question authority, to demand transparency,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: and to hold our leaders accountable.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Because who knows what else might be happening behind closed doors.
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  Speaker 2: That's the scary part, isn't it. We can't let history
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  Speaker 2: repeat itself.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Well said, Well, I think we've given our listeners a
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: lot to chew on today. Any final thoughts before we
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: wrap up, just.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: That we all have a responsibility to stay informed and engaged.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: We can't afford to be complacent.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I agree. Knowledge is power, right exactly.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: And the more we know about the past, the better
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: equipped we are to shape the future.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Well, on that note, I think it's time to wrap
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: things up. A huge thank you to you for sharing
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: your expertise with.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Us, always a pleasure. Thanks for having me, and.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: To all of our listeners out there, thank you for
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: joining us on this deep dive into the dark side
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: of history.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: And keep those minds curious.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: We'll see you next time on the infographics