Latest / Chef's PSA Podcast / Breaking Barbecue Barriers: Michelin Star Insights with Evan LeRoy | Ep 144

Transcript

Breaking Barbecue Barriers: Michelin Star Insights with Evan LeRoy | Ep 144 · Chef's PSA Podcast

0:00
Hello chefs, this is Chef's PSA podcast.
0:02
I'm your host Andre Natera. On today's episode, my guest is
0:05
Evan Leroy. He's one of the first chefs to
0:07
receive a Michelin star for BBQ at his restaurant, Leroy and
0:11
Lewis in Austin, TX. He's really going to break down
0:13
barbecue in this episode. Stay checked.
0:27
Man, it's good to see you. Yeah, it's good to see you.
0:29
Thanks for having me. Yeah.
0:31
So for people that are listening, I was just there,
0:34
yeah, the other day with Jacob and I, I got to tell you, the
0:40
meet was fantastic. Thank you.
0:42
Well deserving of Michelin stars.
0:43
Appreciate that, but I think. What really blew me away was all
0:47
the sides. Yeah, I, it's not what I
0:50
expected. And everything was final.
0:52
You had I'm, I'm trying to think like the, the chorizo potatoes
0:57
really excellent. The burger you made was
0:58
excellent. The Pickles were great.
1:02
The, the Frito pie, everything was really good.
1:05
And I, I guess my, my question to you is, running a BBQ
1:10
restaurant, how did you set yourself up to be different from
1:14
everyone else? Because there's a lot of noise,
1:15
especially in Austin, TX, you know, big BBQ culture.
1:18
Yeah. Was was that intentional, you
1:22
know? Very much so.
1:23
Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, very, very much so.
1:25
People ask us all the time, like what is what separates you guys
1:29
from the rest of the BBQ community?
1:31
And the short answer is everything.
1:34
But we start with the meat. BBQ is all about the meat.
1:37
We start with the meat. I have worked at a bunch of BBQ
1:40
restaurants and in doing that you're unpacking boxes and boxes
1:44
and boxes of beef and pork. And I'm just asking myself where
1:48
is this stuff coming from? And I at the same time that was
1:53
happening, saw farm to table movement happening, saw
1:56
everybody in the nice restaurants that I wanted to go
1:59
to, that I wanted to work at sourcing their meats from local
2:03
ranches and farms. And I didn't see anybody in BBQ
2:06
doing that. So that's where we start from.
2:09
When sourcing that meat, you can't always get the amount or
2:12
the cuts that you would think of.
2:15
What do you think about BBQ? So you have to adapt and you
2:17
have to try different things. And then that opens up the
2:20
entire box to just kind of have fun with it.
2:24
And to me, BBQ is basically a framework, right?
2:26
It's a menu, not a it's a method, not a menu.
2:29
That's what I say all the time. It's a method of cooking smoked
2:32
meat over fire and then like kind of scoopable picnic style
2:37
sides. That's basically the framework
2:38
and anything can fit into that. Any cuisine, any meat, even
2:41
vegetables, everything. So specifically looking at at
2:46
your sides, what was the thought?
2:48
And the reason I ask is because the sides on their own.
2:50
Yeah. And by the way, you also did
2:53
like a a tiramisu with banana. Yeah.
2:55
It's fucking excellent. Sounds good.
2:56
Yeah, it was really good. So I was with Jacob and we were
2:58
like fighting. I was like, I'm going to take
2:59
that one home. Like, fuck you, man.
3:01
I'll take it that way. But it was it was really
3:05
excellent. And I, I guess my question is
3:08
like, what is, what is your process to come up with those?
3:11
And I will say this, like those sides could be found in the best
3:14
restaurants, like as as as a part of as a part of a complete
3:18
dish in any of the best restaurants.
3:20
They were excellent. They were perfectly seasoned,
3:22
well balanced, huge amount of flavor.
3:25
The chorizo with the potatoes, like the chorizo alone was like,
3:31
wow, that's mind blowing. It was so good.
3:34
So what's, what's the process to come up with the sides like?
3:36
What's the story behind that? So it's two things.
3:39
There's the, there's using everything that we have
3:43
leftover. If you're trimming meat, then it
3:45
just creates a bunch of scraps. We kind of hitched our wagon to
3:49
beef cheeks, but beef cheeks, if you trim them out, there's like
3:53
60% trim and 40% like serveable, slicable, nice medallion.
3:58
So we have all this extra kind of really stringy, fatty tissuey
4:03
meat that we grind up and braise in the oven and then make
4:07
chorizo out of that. We make chili out of that.
4:09
We just had to find spots for all this extra ground meat.
4:13
Combine that with me growing up and my grandparents making choy
4:17
Papas for us for breakfast on Saturday mornings.
4:20
Throw a fried egg on top. It's something that is just pure
4:24
nostalgia hit. For me used to make that for me
4:26
too. Yeah, we were talking about
4:27
that. Yeah, it's great.
4:28
Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of where
4:29
that stuff come from. You're cooking was like my dad's
4:32
cooking. Yeah.
4:33
So it like, took me right back. It was great.
4:35
Yeah, it was. Great.
4:38
So for people that are brand new to barbecue, let's start with
4:43
the basics. Like what?
4:44
Like basic BBQ one-on-one. Let's start with the meat.
4:48
Yes. When selecting the meat, what
4:50
are some of the most important qualities that you're looking
4:51
for? And so I guess my first question
4:53
would be specifically on the meat is like you talk about
4:55
local farms and ranches, but like does it matter if it's
4:59
Wagyu prime choice select And just like what?
5:02
What is the best thing for BBQ? So I would say probably prime
5:07
Wagyu choice, like those are all going to be good barbecuing
5:09
cuts. Like you can BBQ anything.
5:11
It kind of started as you know something, let's try to get some
5:14
inexpensive piece of meat, let's try to get this select brisket
5:17
and try to kind of make some magic out of it.
5:19
But now all of the kind of top places are sourcing really well.
5:22
They're at least using prime or upper 2/3 choice.
5:25
A lot of them are using branded beef and Wagyu, and we're kind
5:28
of using a combination of all those.
5:30
We use Heart brand beef, which is an Akashi breed.
5:34
We use Dean and Peeler, which is Angus, but they're local to
5:37
Texas. And then we use another ranch
5:40
called Laurene Farms where we get quarters of beef that we
5:43
break down in house. And so, OK, so now we, we
5:46
discussed the beef. Now what about the pork?
5:47
Like when you're selecting pork, what are you looking for?
5:49
Like for for excellent BBQ. Yeah, mostly people are going to
5:53
be talking about ribs when you're talking about pork or
5:55
pork butt. Pork butts, as far as commodity
5:59
butts, a lot of them are the same.
6:00
A lot of them are just that square shape you see in the
6:02
supermarket. Everybody recognizes those.
6:04
As far as pork ribs go, if you're looking for pork ribs in
6:07
a supermarket, I would look for like a nice big rack that has a
6:11
lot of meat on it. It's not really thin.
6:12
Sometimes you can see there's ribs like shining through on
6:15
top. That's really not what you want.
6:17
We don't really even bring in pork ribs in the case.
6:21
We just bring in half hogs from a local ranch, South Texas,
6:24
called Peaceful Pork. And so we butcher out these
6:28
belly on spare ribs and then cure them like bacon and then
6:31
double smoke them. So it's like a big bacon rib.
6:35
Super, super good. Yeah, that is good.
6:36
Yeah. OK, so, so we talk pork, we talk
6:40
beef. Now when we talk the seasoning
6:43
process, how important is that? I mean, you know, I, I, I'm,
6:46
I'm, I'm looking at Franklin. Like I saw his master class.
6:49
He's like salt and pepper only you know the but is that, is
6:53
that pretty standard? Is that kind of what everyone
6:54
does or is there stuff that like that's what we talk about, but
6:57
behind the scenes there's a lot of shit no one talks about?
6:59
So it's a, it's a combination and depends on the BBQ place.
7:03
We only use salt and pepper on a lot of things, but it's a spec.
7:07
It's diamond crystal and it is 16 mesh black pepper because
7:10
it's got like that kind of grit to it.
7:12
It's got like a little bit bigger of a chunk to it.
7:16
You know, other people use different things.
7:18
I know Lowery's is very popular right now.
7:19
A lot of people put different spices in their rubs.
7:21
But in my opinion, beef just really only needs salt or salt
7:25
and pepper depending on the cut. And then pork you can kind of go
7:28
crazy with. But since we cook half hogs with
7:31
the skin on, we just put a little bit of salt on them.
7:33
And then the seasoning comes afterwards in the form of like a
7:36
like a sauce, kind of like a Carolina vinegar sauce.
7:40
And and then we talk about the smoker.
7:43
Does the type of smoker matter? Oh, big time.
7:47
So so. People that don't, yeah, when
7:49
you say big time, I saw your eyes light up.
7:51
Yeah, yeah. So there's man, I can sit here
7:53
and talk about talk about smokers forever.
7:56
Geek out. On it.
7:58
So we have a, we have an offset smoker, we have two offset
8:01
smokers. Explain what that means for
8:03
people. An offset smoker is the kind of
8:06
traditional thing you'll see in Texas.
8:08
It looks like they usually are decommissioned propane tanks
8:13
that have a firebox on one side, a cook chamber in the middle,
8:16
and then a smokestack on the end.
8:18
And then that is a traditional offset.
8:20
You can from there go to reverse flow, which is kind of the same
8:25
setup, but you have your firebox on one side and the smokestack
8:29
on the same side. And so the smoke goes under and
8:31
there's a plate underneath where the racks are and it kind of
8:34
goes back and it goes out. So that's supposed to even out
8:38
the temperature. I don't really like if reverse
8:40
flow because all that stuff drips on that plate and then the
8:44
fire goes underneath it and it starts like burning.
8:46
And so it doesn't make a very good taste in my opinion.
8:49
A lot of people make really good barbecue on reverse flow
8:52
smokers. There's obviously like a pellet
8:55
grill and like a ugly drum and kind of, you know, Weber kettle,
8:59
like there's all that kind of stuff, but that's mostly like
9:01
backyard kind of cookers. We use a, we also have a direct
9:05
heat smoker which involves just burning wood down to coals and
9:10
then we will shovel the live orange coals right underneath
9:14
the hog pieces or the chickens. And so that fat drips down and
9:19
kind of makes like a, it vaporizes and makes a much
9:22
lighter like a grill flavor tasting smoke rather than the
9:26
offset smoker has more of like a wood smoke because that's the
9:29
smoke that you're cooking with the wood from burning logs.
9:32
And about how hot? I mean, is it?
9:35
Are you smoking a mixed set of meats?
9:37
Like are you smoking your briskets with your pork, with
9:40
your beef cheeks, with your chickens all at the same time?
9:42
Or are you cooking them different temperatures?
9:44
So we. Do smokers, does that flavor
9:47
cross pollinate some? Yeah.
9:49
Yeah, we we put the briskets and the flat irons and the cheeks on
9:53
the same smoke or the offset. They all get pretty much the
9:56
same rub. And we start pretty low and then
9:59
bring the temperature up, kind of like cooking a potato and
10:01
water. We want to bring everything up
10:03
together and then the direct heat that starts pretty hot
10:08
because we want to put as much heat onto the pig as possible
10:12
before it starts dripping and rendering a bunch of fat and
10:14
that can cause a fire. So it's kind of the opposite.
10:17
With the briskets and the beef, we start low and then bump it
10:20
up. With the pork and the chicken,
10:21
we kind of start high and then it goes down.
10:24
But you don't commingle them. No, we don't because we do a
10:27
little bit of different temperatures and they're
10:30
different pits that produce very wildly, that cook very
10:33
differently. Like the offset is a, is a
10:36
horizontal, it's almost like a convection cooker.
10:38
And then the direct pit is direct heat, It's direct radiant
10:42
heat from those coals. It's almost like a grill.
10:44
Got it. And so I would say probably the
10:48
most popular thing, especially when I think of Texas BBQ
10:50
brisket, Yeah. Are you a believer in wrapping
10:54
the brisket or you don't wrap the brisket?
10:55
So we do a specific type of wrap called a foil boat.
11:00
You know, this is always like people would always ask the
11:04
question, do you wrap in foil? Do you wrap in paper?
11:06
And they're two different things.
11:07
Can you explain like why they're different?
11:09
Yes, yeah. So a paper, you know, when you
11:12
wrap your brisket in butcher paper, it's a little bit porous.
11:15
It breathes, it can let, it can let some of that like liquid and
11:22
fat out, but it also is saturated with that and it will
11:25
hold it onto the meat. And so it'll stay a little bit
11:28
moist. The if you wrap completely in
11:31
foil, you're essentially like putting it in a pot and closing
11:35
the lid. It's, it's creating steam.
11:37
It's going to steam that brisket.
11:38
Everything's going to get really soft.
11:40
You're going to hold every piece of moisture right against that
11:43
meat. So what we do is take the top of
11:46
the foil and kind of crimp it around so the top stays crunchy.
11:49
It's a crunchy fat cap just like on a steak or just like on, you
11:52
know, if you eat like a crunchy piece of pork belly, that gives
11:55
way to really nice rendered melty pork fat.
11:59
It's kind of the same idea if you get that nice crunchy bark
12:02
that we're known for and then that rendered fat and then that
12:05
silky meat. That's the reason we do the foil
12:07
boat, because it keeps the top open, higher heat and then it
12:10
holds just enough juices on the bottom or the lean side to keep
12:14
it moist. And does it matter which side
12:16
you're cooking your brisket? Very much so.
12:19
If you put the brisket fat side down, you know there's no fat on
12:24
top to protect anything. The lean side is just going to
12:27
get hammered by heat and then the fat side is just going to
12:30
get like smushed once once it renders like the weight of it is
12:34
just going to like smush down so.
12:35
OK, so you want to cook a fat side up?
12:37
Fat side up most of the time I would say if you have, if I were
12:40
cooking a brisket on a direct heat cooker where the heat is
12:43
coming from the bottom up, I would start it fats.
12:46
I would start it fat side down because I want to cook some of
12:49
that before I flip it over. Because if you flip it and then
12:52
start to cook the OR if you cook it lean side down, you're never
12:55
going to get enough heat on the top side on the fatty side to
12:58
actually render everything out. When you think about like
13:01
different states, like like I have a chef's PSA, it's like, no
13:04
matter how good your BBQ is, you know someone else says their
13:07
neighbor says there's better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like.
13:10
Fuck your BBQ, man. Yeah, but it's better.
13:12
Yeah, but states are the same way, right?
13:14
So like you got, you got very distinct styles.
13:17
You know, you have Texas barbecue and does Texas have
13:19
different? Like is Dallas BBQ different
13:21
from Austin? I would say a.
13:22
Little, little differences, I would say a little bit, I would
13:25
say, I mean it kind of reflects the culture of the city.
13:29
I think Austin is a little bit more adventurous, a little bit
13:33
more, you know, into doing kind of funky, different stuff, which
13:36
is why I think Leroy and Lewis works here.
13:38
I don't think it could work in Dallas or Houston or frankly,
13:40
anywhere else, right? But yeah, I think they kind of
13:44
like follow that as far as the states go, there's really only
13:47
one state to talk about, and that's Texas, man.
13:50
But what are some of the differences?
13:51
Like what? What are some key distinct
13:53
differences between like Carolina, Yeah, KC, Texas?
13:57
Like what? What makes those different?
14:00
Why is it not all the same? Yeah.
14:01
So that's pretty much going back to like history of BBQ, right?
14:06
BBQ starts in the Caribbean with the Taino people who are, you
14:11
know, digging pits in the ground and shoveling coals in there and
14:15
cooking like pigs and chickens and goats and sheep.
14:19
Kind of like over these coals that kind of migrates to the
14:22
American South, you know, the Southeastern United States where
14:25
slaves, you know, essentially blow up this entire cuisine and
14:29
like make it into an enormous thing.
14:31
And it travels out through the entire United States.
14:34
It intersects with the cattle trade that's going on in Texas
14:38
and the German immigrants that have moved there at the same
14:41
time and kind of the mid 1800s. And then you start to have smoke
14:44
houses like Black BBQ, Kreitz Market, all these kind of like
14:48
little towns have their own meat markets.
14:50
And that's kind of how you get Texas BBQ as far as the
14:54
differences in the cuisines go. Carolina style, when I was
14:58
talking about the direct heat, that's like their thing.
15:01
That's their, that's how they cook.
15:03
That is, I mean, they cook direct heat pork shoulders or
15:08
whole hogs and to make pulled pork.
15:10
If you just say, hey, I want some BBQ, you're going to get
15:13
pulled pork. Texas is obviously like beef
15:16
centric. You have the Holy Trinity,
15:18
brisket, ribs, sausage and then pretty much everywhere you're
15:22
going to go, you're going to get the basic size, which are like
15:25
beans, coleslaw, potato salad. Memphis is known for like dry
15:30
rubbed ribs. I don't I don't really know that
15:32
there's any like really good places that are doing that in
15:36
Memphis now. One of our team members actually
15:39
just moved up there on it's like doing like pop up stuff.
15:43
And then what else is there? Carolina, Texas, Kansas City, KS
15:48
City is kind of like more sweet sauce focused.
15:52
It's more like sauce focus. We get people in the restaurant
15:54
from Kansas City and they're just like, what about this
15:55
sauce? What about that sauce?
15:56
I'm like, it's on the side just like, eat the meat.
15:59
And then the sauces are good, but they're meant to be, you
16:02
know, an accoutrement. Yeah, let's let's talk about
16:04
sauce for a second. Should should it have sauce and
16:09
like if if someone really wants to appreciate BBQ should they
16:14
they should eat the meat and then sauce Or should they just
16:16
not even touch the sauce and just appreciate the meat or
16:18
like. Or is it just like, who cares,
16:19
no rules? I, you know, when, when I'm
16:22
looking at a composed plate of BBQ, when I'm looking at a tray,
16:25
I'm looking at everything on it. You said yourself, like at the
16:28
restaurant, the meat was really good.
16:30
The sides were like, really, really.
16:31
On the sauce, by the way. Barbecue used to be this thing
16:40
where it's just like, oh, the meat is good, but you're going
16:42
to get some, you know, scooped potato salad from a bucket from
16:45
U.S. Foods, you know, or you're going
16:48
to get just like, you know, some white bread or something kind of
16:50
thrown on there. And that's kind of what the
16:53
whole Kraft BBQ movement is about, is like paying attention
16:56
to every single thing on the plate, making the Pickles,
16:59
making the bread, really pumping up all the seasoning and flavors
17:03
and freshness on the sides and making it a full experience.
17:06
So in general if someone like is it like do like BBQ chefs get
17:13
angry when people douse their their meat and sauce?
17:16
Is that like a sin? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say
17:19
so. I would say people do.
17:21
I mean, I don't know. It's like covering after ranch.
17:24
After the sale is made. Man, I don't care how you eat
17:27
it. Yeah, OK, fair enough.
17:28
Just just as long as you enjoy it.
17:30
And if you leave Five stars, always five stars.
17:32
Only 5 stars. Yeah, I hate it.
17:33
I'm the same way. Like 5 star podcast, only 5
17:36
stars. Put four stars on someone else.
17:38
If it's four stars, give it to the give it to the other
17:40
podcast. That's right.
17:40
That's right. That's funny.
17:43
OK, So what makes a good sauce? Like how should the sauce
17:48
compliment the beef? Like when you're when you're
17:50
trying to balance that, what is it that you're trying to do?
17:52
You said it balance. Yeah.
17:54
So when I was trying to make BBQ sauces for this new restaurant,
17:58
I was like, alright, I'll make a sweet sauce.
18:00
I'll make a tangy sauce. I make a spicy sauce.
18:01
And I was like, all these are missing something.
18:03
And I put them together and I was like this sauce because it's
18:06
sweet. It's it's tangy, it's spicy, it
18:08
has everything. The only thing was really
18:10
missing was like some nice color and some depth and earthiness.
18:13
So I added some beet juice, which made it like nice and
18:16
bright purple and then kind of brought in this earthiness too.
18:19
And that's our signature sauce, Bee BBQ Sauce.
18:21
Now, what about wood? Like, what is, is there like a
18:25
standard wood that people should use?
18:27
And like, like, I know like depending on where you live,
18:30
you're probably going to have different trees.
18:31
Yeah. Yeah.
18:32
But how does that affect the flavor?
18:34
And like how important is the wood?
18:37
Or is it not that important? It's extremely important.
18:39
It's also tied to regionality. Central Texas is a big post oak
18:45
area. That's what we use.
18:46
That's what I've always used for BBQ.
18:48
That's what we put in the offsets and in the burn barrel
18:51
to create coals. The only other thing that I
18:54
would possibly use might be pecan, but even that can be a
18:56
little bit strong on the smokiness.
18:58
I don't like to put any other wood in the fire boxes because
19:01
your smoker will start to smell and taste like that other wood.
19:05
Like when we were at Cosmic in the food truck, they would burn
19:09
cedar in their like fire pits just to have because it's a big
19:13
outdoor area. And I would kind of like catch a
19:15
whiff of it and think somebody accidentally like put a cedar
19:18
log in the fire box. And I would be like freaking out
19:21
for a second. But are you gonna?
19:22
Like strangle. Yeah, yeah.
19:25
Yeah, yeah. But I, I I.
19:28
Like how do you get that out? You gotta like hose it down.
19:30
What do you do? I mean, luckily it never
19:32
happened so. Good.
19:34
But if it did. Happen if it did happen.
19:35
Like after you bury the body, what do you do?
19:37
What do you do to get rid of the cell?
19:39
Probably just pull the log out. Yeah.
19:41
Open all the doors. I have no idea, honestly.
19:43
Thank God it never happened. No, we Yeah.
19:48
Post oak is what we use. I think it has the best flavor.
19:50
It's pretty mild as far as I mean it's your fuel source, so
19:54
it needs to be seasoned correctly.
19:56
It needs to not be all like rotted.
19:57
Like you can tell when you pick up a log if it feels really
20:00
heavy, if it feels really dense, then it's going to be like
20:04
waterlogged. It's going to be it's like
20:05
freshly cut. It hasn't dried out or cured
20:08
enough, hasn't lost enough moisture.
20:10
So if you put it on the fire, it's going to hiss and it's
20:12
going to sizzle. It's going to take a really long
20:14
time to catch and. It's going to put off a bunch of
20:17
dirty smoke the opposite way. If you have a blog that's been
20:21
sitting there for years and years and all the moisture's
20:23
gone out of it, you'll put it on your fire and it'll go up
20:26
immediately and you'll get almost no smoke and you'll spike
20:29
your temperature. Right now, you know, the
20:33
Michelin guy just came out and congratulations again.
20:35
I I can't congratulate you enough on being one of the first
20:42
restaurants ever. Yeah.
20:43
What was it for? There's 44 restaurants to ever
20:46
receive a a Michelin star doing BBQ.
20:49
So like, that's historic. Yeah.
20:51
So. So kudos to you like.
20:52
Thank you. Thank you.
20:54
Besides you and three others, no one else could ever say that.
20:56
Exactly. So that's that's, that's huge.
20:59
How has that impacted you, your team and also the business?
21:05
It was a it was a big morale boost for everybody.
21:08
We really thought that we, you know, were had something
21:11
special, but we never thought in a million years that we would
21:15
get a Michelin star. We can.
21:16
I mean, what I saw places like Moose and Heritage in California
21:20
get big Bourmans and I was like, OK, that's kind of probably
21:23
where we can land. That's what we can hope for, you
21:27
know, with them coming to town. But I never ever expected that
21:29
to happen. It has been, I mean, to say it's
21:34
been a boom for sales is a gross understatement.
21:37
It's been, it changed everything.
21:39
We are very busy all the time now, but some, some of these,
21:42
some of these days we're serving like over 1000 people a day,
21:46
which is just insane. There's like, and all these
21:49
other BBQ restaurants that have Michelin stars or not are open,
21:53
you know, just a few hours, they're open for lunch.
21:55
We're open like all day long and there's a constant line.
21:59
Sometimes it's overwhelming. It is really, really amazing to
22:02
see everybody coming out. Nobody's really kind of like
22:06
sticking their nose up at it. Nobody's kind of been like, oh,
22:09
this is not initial in quality. Like they, they, they, they kind
22:12
of get it. They know the score.
22:13
They know that it's just like a high quality experience for a
22:16
BBQ restaurant and it's not like.
22:18
White tablecloth. Yeah, yeah.
22:20
Yeah. But yeah, it's changed
22:22
everything. And why do you think this is so
22:27
important though? Like why is BBQ right now?
22:32
Like why is it having its moment now?
22:34
Like why? Why didn't have its moment 15
22:36
years ago? Like what's so important about
22:38
BBQ today? I think the moment started 15
22:42
years ago. I mean, it kind of started, you
22:44
know, starting not too far from here with Aaron Franklin.
22:47
He's the kind of one who kicked everything off and then
22:50
everybody else has been kind of following in his footsteps.
22:54
What did he do that like, I mean, besides like running out?
22:57
I haven't decided to go somewhere else.
23:00
He paid attention to the details, man.
23:02
Like that's kind of what was exciting to me about getting
23:04
into BBQ to begin with is I saw a wide open market because
23:07
nobody was taking it seriously until him.
23:10
Nobody like really tried to achieve like making it excellent
23:15
until he did and then that was that kicked everything off.
23:19
That's what the BBQ boom is about, is people just taking a
23:22
chef's approach or taking a detailed eye or just like making
23:25
it a craft product. Yeah, and, and you're right,
23:28
because when I first moved to Austin, Aaron was just like
23:32
blowing up. And I remember waiting in line
23:35
forever to get barbecued multiple times.
23:38
Right. And it was always excellent.
23:40
Here's a funny story. It's not that funny, but I, I
23:43
find it funny because I, I, you know, I was a chef and we had
23:47
this restaurant and we wanted to do something with, with brisket
23:53
for brunch. And so, you know, the guys from
23:56
Pecan Lodge in Dallas, right? So I would go to them and like,
23:58
Hey, you know, let me, let me have some brisket, whatever,
24:02
whatever. And we, I would, I would buy
24:05
brisket from them. I tried it.
24:06
I put in the potatoes or whatever, right, for brunch.
24:09
And it was, it was crazy because I ate their brisket probably
24:14
every day for a year. Like, that's all I ate.
24:18
Like, I didn't really think about it.
24:20
I just ate their brisket every day for years.
24:21
Just like, that's what we have for lunch.
24:22
We have brisket leftover. Great.
24:23
We're gonna eat that. And like, someone asked me,
24:28
like, can you tell the difference between good and bad
24:30
barbecues? And I remember like, like, Nah,
24:32
it's kind of it all tastes like brisket.
24:35
And then I had other barbecue and I was like, oh, shit, it's
24:37
not all the same. Yeah, like it.
24:39
It donned me. And the only reason I knew this
24:40
because I had good, I had good BBQ every day and I took it for
24:44
granted, you know what I mean? And then when we were doing R&D,
24:47
we rented a house right up the street from here and LA BBQ was
24:52
up the street. So every day we'd go get LA BBQ
24:55
for lunch and it's like 1 Michelin star BBQ every day.
24:57
It's like, I, I only had good BBQ.
25:00
I didn't know bad BBQ existed, you know what I mean?
25:03
So it wasn't so someone's like, oh, you know, I'm not going to
25:06
call the, the place out, like, oh, just get BBQ from here.
25:08
I was like, yeah, it's. And then I tried like, oh, I get
25:12
it. Yeah.
25:12
Like, like I understand. Like everyone's like, no, I was
25:14
like, no, no, no, no. You don't understand.
25:16
If you eat it every day and you know what it's supposed to taste
25:19
like, you know when it's wrong or you know when it's not good,
25:22
it's. Just like any other food man.
25:23
I mean, we're talking about seasoning, we're talking about
25:25
flavor, we're talking about, you know, cooking appropriately to
25:29
tenderness and doneness. Like, it's nothing out of the
25:33
realm that any chef does on a daily basis.
25:35
The only difference is that you're like working with a live
25:37
fire. Yeah, but I think the skills are
25:40
are are a little bit more complicated than you just made
25:44
it sound. It will OK maybe if you if you
25:49
know how to deal with roasts like large roasts that you can
25:52
apply. That no we did.
25:53
We just, we just open up like an Alto sham and close it like set
25:56
the temp and come back 8 hours later and the prime ribs right?
25:59
Like that's all we did. We did.
26:01
We didn't fuck with it too much. Yeah, but like there's still,
26:04
you know, even if you what, if you put that prime rib in there
26:07
and it wasn't trimmed or seasoned correctly, then it's
26:09
still not going to be right. You know, it's it's the same
26:11
thing. Yeah, the the thing that you
26:14
that you do specifically with, with BBQ, but, you know, calling
26:17
out some of the other great chefs that are doing BBQ as well
26:20
as like it's just there's like I look at like Jiro from, you
26:26
know, Jiro dreams, like I look at you, it's like the same
26:28
thing. Like, I don't know about that.
26:29
Well, no, but. That's how I look at it.
26:31
That's how I look at it's like just so much discipline on this
26:35
one thing that's just excellent. And it's like, look, you might,
26:39
you might think you're going to watch master class on how to,
26:42
how to do BBQ, but I promise you it's not going to be as good as
26:45
Aaron Franklin's when it's done. Like you could watch that all
26:47
day long. You're, you're not going to get
26:49
it. Like I, you know, I'm, I'm a
26:51
chef. And I remember I was doing a BBQ
26:53
program for, for this place and I was like really fucking proud
26:57
of it. And then and then like someone
26:59
that was also helping me consult who knew BBQ, they're like, this
27:02
is shit. I was like, what are you talking
27:03
about? I was like, no, no, you missed
27:04
it. Like there's so much that I was
27:05
like, Oh, I didn't even notice that.
27:06
Like, oh, the wood and oh, the, the temperature was too high.
27:09
And you, you, yeah. He's using terms that I'm just
27:11
not familiar with. Like, like the, the, the, the
27:14
jargons, like, oh, you, you know, the stall is yeah.
27:16
What the fuck's the stall? Like the bathroom?
27:18
Like, what are you talking about?
27:19
But but it's like, there's so much detail.
27:22
Yeah. That like when you're so laser
27:24
focused on that, it's exceptional.
27:26
Yeah. Just like anything, right?
27:28
I mean, yeah, yeah, kinda, kinda.
27:31
It's, I mean, it's hard to get right.
27:34
It's pretty easy to mess up. What are some of the like the
27:38
the most common mistakes that people make with BBQ?
27:41
Man, everything there's. Like like you're you're giving
27:46
everyone advice like stop fucking up your BBQ.
27:48
Especially if you're talking about brisket.
27:49
Like stop doing this you. Can make a mistake through every
27:52
single step of the process that can make the end result garbage.
27:56
What are like some of the most frequent?
27:59
The things I see most are just like a bad trim, bad trim is not
28:02
going to cook correctly. You're not going to have the
28:04
right fat cap if you don't like trim it down.
28:06
And then you'd put all this work in and cook it and have all this
28:10
wood and all the Peppers expensive, all this pepper and
28:13
then like actually rest it. And then when you slice into it,
28:18
the fat cap is this big and it's inedible.
28:20
It's gross. So like, got to trim it right?
28:23
You have to season it right. You get one chance to season it
28:25
and you can't season the interior of it because you're
28:28
not brining a brisket unless you make a pastrami.
28:30
So you got to season it extremely heavily on the
28:33
outside, probably way more than you think you're going to need.
28:36
Then you got to cook it. And then cooking The thing is in
28:39
its entire is its own entire like struggle because you're
28:45
working the fire, you're working with the elements outside.
28:49
The wood is never exactly the same.
28:53
You know, you're going to have to probably rotate them around
28:55
and then you have to rest it. And then you could still do all
28:58
that correctly and then like cut it with a messed up knife or cut
29:01
it in the wrong direction. So there's at every single step
29:05
of the process you can mess something up.
29:07
So we we can't do the necessarily the visual of people
29:10
are listening, but what is the right way to cut a brisket?
29:12
So basically if you have it horizontal in front of you
29:15
pretty much directly in half, that's going to separate the
29:17
fatty and the lean side. And then the lean side you will
29:22
cut parallel to your first cut in about thickness of a #2
29:27
pencil about that thick. And then you will cut the fatty
29:31
side perpendicular to your first cut a little bit thicker about
29:35
the thickness of like a one of those thick pencils do.
29:38
You have a preference. Fatty or lean?
29:40
Yeah, I mean. Like if you're just eating for
29:42
yourself. I I usually like to eat like
29:45
half a slice of lean brisket. Just a half a slice of lean
29:50
brisket, like to try it every day to see the tenderness, to
29:54
see the salinity, to see just the smoke level, the juiciness,
29:58
just to kind of like check it out.
29:59
Yeah, that's kind of that's what I eat at the.
30:02
Restaurant I'm sure this has happened because it's inevitable
30:05
What are you doing when it's wrong like and there's no save
30:08
in it like when you you've already cooked this brisket is
30:10
it just staff meal what are? You chopped beef.
30:12
Chopped beef? Yeah, you just make chopped
30:13
beef. You just chop it up, throw a
30:15
little sauce on it, and then it's sandwiches.
30:17
So it's, it's still sellable. And even if you cook a brisket
30:21
perfectly, not every slice of it is sellable.
30:24
Yeah. Like if you, you probably get 5
30:26
or 6 slices on a fatty side of a brisket before you get to the
30:29
end where there's like the fat is too much.
30:32
So that little chunk of it, like probably 1/4 to 1/3 of your
30:35
entire fatty side is going to be just chopped beef.
30:39
You do, you do Snake night. Yes.
30:42
I want to ask you about that. So for for people listening, can
30:45
you explain kind of what steak night is?
30:46
Yeah. So we, you know, the goal was
30:49
always to be a whole animal BBQ restaurant.
30:52
So we've been doing that for years and years with the pigs.
30:56
And then as soon as we got into the restaurant and started
30:58
bringing in quarters of beef and butchering them, we saw and cut
31:02
and tasted these amazing huge steaks, like 3 lbs thick.
31:09
And they were just too good for the BBQ life.
31:11
Like I was, I was looking at it and I was like, this just needs
31:14
to be like served like we need service for this.
31:18
So we started doing reservation based steaks, like four groups.
31:23
It's not like you go and you order a steak and you would
31:25
order a steak. It's like this is the 3 LB steak
31:27
for like 4 people. It comes with a pit tour.
31:31
You can order anything else off the menu.
31:32
You don't have to wait in the line.
31:34
You get table service. So that's pretty much it.
31:39
And so the reason I ask is because you saw, we just talked
31:44
about it, but I, I have two distinct evolution jumps I've
31:49
seen, seen with BBQ. So we talked about Aaron
31:51
Franklin, you know, really putting barbecue on the map,
31:53
putting Austin on the map with what he's, what he's done and
31:56
he's incredible. He, he, he deserves all the
32:00
accolades. And then now you have this
32:02
secondary evolutionary jump kind of with what you're doing,
32:06
Michelin's getting involved. What's next?
32:09
Like where, where is BBQ headed next?
32:11
Like, OK, so there was this, now there's this.
32:14
What's what's the next big evolution of BBQ?
32:16
I think I, I kind of look at the craft beer industry to kind of
32:20
take notes from that. I think we're going to see like
32:22
the niche ification of BBQ. So you'll start to see not just
32:26
a BBQ place, but it's like this is a Mexican BBQ place, this is
32:30
a Thai BBQ place, this is a fine dining BBQ place, This is a BBQ
32:35
burger place. And then they're also going to
32:37
be like, this is just a restaurant, but they have a
32:39
smoker. Yeah.
32:41
So like, I think those are the two things that you'll see like
32:43
more kind of like specific culture driven, chef driven,
32:48
like idea. That's not just straight up BBQ
32:51
fastball down the middle, but also you'll see other people
32:54
kind of dipping their toe and you'll see like a little bit of
32:56
influences on menus that are not traditionally BBQ.
32:59
Yeah, interesting. So you, you, you think at a
33:03
certain point someone's going to be like, let's open up a white
33:06
tablecloth fine dining BBQ place.
33:08
Like do you think that's? Yeah, how would you pull?
33:11
It off just curious like if if it's just an exercise in you
33:14
know. The one I want to reveal all my
33:16
secrets. On no, no, no, but like, like if
33:18
someone's listening, like, hey, I got $1,000,000, yeah, a couple
33:21
billion to to throw around like let me, let me put into your
33:23
fine dining. Yeah, but you know, what do you,
33:25
what would you do? Like how would you pull that
33:27
off? So we, so I, we always talk
33:29
about BBQ as a method, not a menu.
33:32
I think I would take the reverse approach.
33:33
I'd take like the menu approach and it would be like probably a
33:37
coursed out. I don't want to say I'm a Casa
33:40
because it's like an overused thing, but it would be like a
33:42
cool counter where you're seeing people slice in front of you.
33:45
And it could be the traditional BBQ menu, but just reimagined
33:48
into like kind of smaller, more put together, more intentional
33:54
dishes. So it's like this is a pork rib,
33:56
but you know, it's butchered in house.
33:58
It is like maybe cured a little bit, maybe it has like really
34:01
nice garnish up on top and it's just like packed with flavor,
34:05
but it's like a single rib and it's then you go down the entire
34:08
thing. You have your lean brisket and
34:09
maybe that's a tartar, you have your fatty brisket and maybe
34:12
that's a burn end and it's all like coursed out.
34:14
You have your potato salad, but it's just like, you know, very
34:17
well prepared potato salad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:21
It's interesting. I've been thinking about food a
34:24
lot lately and I've probably talked about it.
34:27
I don't know if I've talked about it on any podcasts that
34:29
are out now, but I've talked about it with a lot of chefs
34:33
behind the scenes. When I was at your place the
34:36
other day, I was talking with Jacob about it a lot.
34:39
It's like, I don't know where food is going and, and you know,
34:42
kind of to get a little bit off script, but I, I look at food
34:44
and it's, I mean, quite literally this morning I woke up
34:49
at like 3:00 in the morning because I was thinking about
34:51
this like it's, it's bothering me.
34:53
I've been up since 3 thinking about where food is going
34:56
because I don't know. But what I, but I do see a
34:58
problem and the problem I see with food and, and I'm not
35:02
calling anyone out or, or you're taking shots at anyone.
35:06
But what I do notice is that there's a lot, there's like a
35:09
formula that a lot of chefs follow to like the Instagram
35:13
social media formula. So I'm going to cook like like
35:15
this because it, it gets clicks and likes and hearts and things
35:19
like that. So I'm going to make my food
35:20
look like this. And I know that if I serve a
35:23
white sauce with a broken green oil, it's going to get a lot of
35:26
likes. You know what I mean?
35:27
Like there's that and then there's the people that also
35:30
work in the, the fine dining world and it's like, well, we
35:33
got to have a tart and we got to have this.
35:35
And it's like there's, there's a certain checklist, right?
35:37
I have a friend that has it all planned out.
35:41
I mean, I mean, when I was, when I was still a chef, I mean, I
35:44
had AI had a intense chart of like, OK, all five star
35:51
restaurants, all three star restaurants have a tasty menu.
35:53
They have this many courses. Like I fucking broke it down.
35:56
Like, I was geeked out about it, but the problem is like, it all
36:00
starts to look the same. And so I've been thinking about
36:03
this and I was like, I was having a conversation with
36:05
someone yesterday and I was like, because as my thoughts are
36:09
evolving on it, it's like Marko Pure White kind of had it
36:12
figured out. He gave his stars back and he's
36:14
like, Mother Nature's the true artist.
36:16
And I'm just going to cook. You know, it's not about this
36:18
Michelin stuff, right? I started thinking, like, what
36:20
if you were just cooking? Like you're just cooking without
36:25
the pressure of awards and without the pressure of your
36:28
peers and without the pressure of social media.
36:31
What would your food look like? Yeah.
36:33
And I and I, like I, I and I don't think it would look like
36:36
what we see today. Like if you didn't have those
36:38
pressures. Yeah.
36:39
Yeah. Cooking like with the, with the
36:41
one goal of. I just want it to be good.
36:43
Like, what would it look like? Yeah, and I'm thinking about
36:46
that. I don't have an answer.
36:47
Yeah, but it's like a mental exercise that's been keeping me
36:49
up at night. I mean, that's that, that's,
36:52
that's a really interesting way to kind of think about it
36:54
because I mean, I think that you are going to have people like if
37:03
if you're talking about where food is going, I think that it's
37:08
first of all, it's going wherever we take it.
37:10
I don't think that any, but like, I don't think that
37:13
anybody's really going to reinvent the wheel as far as
37:16
anything is going when you're talking about that.
37:20
But I was just listening to the your last episode with Tracy and
37:24
our job, and that was they inspire me a lot because there's
37:29
nothing crazy like special about what they're doing.
37:33
They just execute at a high, high, high level.
37:36
The food is incredible. The hospitality is incredible.
37:38
There's nothing like there's, there's no like crazy techniques
37:43
going on there. It's just like everything is
37:45
perfect. It's just like you, you were
37:48
describing her food. It was like somebody, I think
37:50
you said like somebody you love to be giving you a big hug.
37:53
That that is where that's food is always going to kind of come
37:56
back to home, like come back to center there.
37:59
I think and regardless of what any award or accolade or
38:03
anything like that, I think that if you cook with honesty, if you
38:06
cook with intention, if you cook with love, then that's where
38:09
it's going to go. Yeah, well, that that comes
38:11
through with your food a lot too.
38:13
A lot actually. And and I think what I respect,
38:16
I mean, we could talk about the sides all day long, but it's
38:19
like the amount of commitment that that you put into this to
38:22
make it different. And I don't, I don't think, I
38:26
don't think it'd be talked about enough.
38:28
The fact that you got this Michelin star, like what that
38:31
really means, it really means that you're doing something
38:34
exceptional. Like just just the fact that
38:36
it's on Michelin's radar. It's the first one ever.
38:38
But but you're changing the game like this.
38:42
This is a moment like it like that.
38:44
People are going to look back and say like you're going to be
38:46
able to pinpoint to was it November 2024?
38:50
We're going to look back at November 2024 and say that's
38:53
when everything changed. I mean I would hope so.
38:55
BBQ has just been seemingly so rigid, but in reality, not like
39:01
everybody thinks that the definition of BBQ has always
39:05
been the same and will always be the same.
39:07
And they just have like a very narrow view of what it is
39:11
supposed to be. And to me it is.
39:14
I've always just asked why not Why?
39:16
Like that was the kind of thing that led me to this restaurant,
39:20
this career, this life. I was like, why?
39:23
Why is everybody doing this the same?
39:24
Why is everybody have the same thing on their menu?
39:27
Why is everybody cooking the exact same thing the exact same
39:31
way? Right.
39:33
Like imagine every if every just normal restaurant like was doing
39:37
that. That'd be crazy if every
39:40
restaurant had the exact same menu.
39:43
In a way, they do. Yeah, but like, still, I mean,
39:46
but there's, there's flourishes. There's yeah, I mean, yeah,
39:50
there's OK, there's salads, there's sandwiches, there's the
39:52
burgers, there's, you know, but it's not every single place has
39:56
the exact same thing. Even if it every place has a
39:58
burger, everybody's doing it a little bit different.
40:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, it's something that's
40:04
keeping me up at night because I'm like, you know, going back
40:06
to the point, back to my point is, if all the food kind of
40:10
looks like this on social media and all the high end food kind
40:13
of looks like this and all the restaurants kind of look like
40:15
this, this like, I don't know what's next, but I'll know it
40:18
when I see it because it's not going to look like any of that.
40:20
You know, kind of like when Renee came out or or Ferran or
40:24
Thomas Keller or any of these greats when they came out, I was
40:27
like, Oh, that's different. And I haven't seen anything
40:29
different. You're, you're different in, in,
40:31
in in your world. And I think what you did is
40:34
exactly what I'm talking about. You caught the attention of
40:36
like, oh, that's different. That's that was always the
40:39
intention is to be different. And you know, sometimes it's not
40:43
always, it doesn't always work. Sometimes it's just like that.
40:46
And you know, if we took a wrong turn on that one, let's kind of
40:48
pull back a little bit. Yeah.
40:50
But yeah, that's that's the point.
40:51
Is just to be a little bit different.
40:53
Did you ever feel like we ain't going to make it?
40:56
No, but just no. No, but my business partner
40:59
definitely did. I mean, there Sawyer is the one
41:02
who's like very much business minded, involved in all the
41:06
numbers and everything, and I'm the creative, I cook.
41:09
I am kind of the driving force in that direction.
41:13
And so it's it does not help me to like think that we're not
41:17
going to make it, you know, like that doesn't make me more it it
41:21
I can only think about like the positive things that are going
41:24
to happen when we do. But it is good to have somebody
41:28
who's like, you know, trenched in reality, who's who's like,
41:33
really like looking at the numbers and make sure we can
41:35
stay open. Who Who impresses you right now?
41:40
I mean, honestly, the entire Austin community I'm really,
41:42
really impressed with. I've always been a huge fan of
41:46
Jesse Griffiths. Like he's like, he's the person
41:48
who I look up to most in this industry, in this city, Just
41:52
like he's, he's a killer. Yeah, yeah.
41:56
Is there anyone that like if, if, if, if you we're going to go
42:02
eat BBQ that wasn't yours? Am I going to fuck, fuck you up
42:05
by asking you this question out of out of Austin?
42:10
So like if you had to go somewhere, it's like, OK, I'm
42:12
going to go eat BBQ. That's not that's not mine.
42:13
Where are you going to go and what are you going to order?
42:15
Yeah, I usually like to go. So I I do still love to eat BBQ.
42:19
That's kind of a nice advantage of having a little bit of a
42:21
different menu is that I can go to other BBQ places and still
42:25
enjoy ribs and potato salad and sausage and all this other
42:27
stuff. So I really like going to Kreitz
42:29
Market. That's my favorite old school
42:31
joint in Lockhart. I love the sausage there.
42:35
I love the aesthetic there. I love the old school vibes
42:37
there. I love the kind of like history
42:39
that's in that building. That's probably one of my
42:42
favorite places. Yeah, and I, I gotta ask you,
42:47
'cause I mean, I feel like you're always working.
42:49
What do you do to unwind? Like how do you take care of
42:51
yourself? Yeah, I try to exercise, I try
42:54
to play golf, I try to go fishing, just enjoy the
42:57
outdoors. Austin's such a great place to
43:00
enjoy the outdoors, so I try to take it in as much as I can.
43:03
Are you good at golf? No, I'm very bad at golf, but I
43:05
don't need to be good to. Enjoy it.
43:06
Yeah. Well, I've, I've only played
43:08
golf once and I'm ultra competitive.
43:09
Yeah. And I played it and like,
43:11
everyone beat me. I was like, I'm never fucking
43:12
playing this game. Yeah.
43:14
If you can just like learn how to swing, then you can have a
43:16
great time out there. Like you don't have to.
43:18
I'm, I'm so bad at it, I don't really ever keep score.
43:21
I just like going out there and whacking it around and having a
43:23
hot dog and a couple beers and just have a good time.
43:26
Yeah. What, what else do you do?
43:27
Like what, what do you do for yourself?
43:29
Like to to make sure that your mental health is good, to make
43:32
sure that you can disconnect or are you always connected?
43:36
Well, I mean, I try to spend time with my family, my wife and
43:40
daughter. I just try to hang out with them
43:42
as much as possible. My parents live in town.
43:44
I try to hang out with them as much as possible.
43:46
I try to see my friends like nothing crazy special.
43:49
I work a lot. I am at the restaurant a lot.
43:53
You know, we have goals that we want to achieve at the
43:56
restaurant and we've only been open little over a year.
44:01
So I still kind of feel like I need to be there as much as I
44:06
can to just like put eyes on everything, make sure everything
44:10
tastes good, make sure that the staff feels like they are
44:13
supported as much as possible. So I can see like I think what's
44:18
the new text monthly list comes out in May.
44:24
We'll see what happens there, but I'll probably I'll probably
44:28
try to take a little bit of time off after that.
44:30
We'll see. What do you did you see an
44:32
influx of staff, people wanting to work for you once, I mean
44:35
with all the recent success? A little bit not crazy.
44:39
We I think when we opened the restaurant from the food truck
44:44
that we got a lot of people who want to work with us and we
44:47
hire. We had a big hiring sweep and we
44:49
have kept almost every one of them.
44:51
That's good. Yeah.
44:52
What do you do? I mean like, what's your what's,
44:55
what's your method to create a great workplace culture to make
44:58
sure that you have low turnover? It's, I mean, I, I, I kind of
45:04
hate to say the like, I hate to say it's like familial, but but
45:10
it is. I really like checking up on all
45:13
the, I really care about everybody who works in our
45:16
restaurant. I like checking up on them.
45:18
I like just making sure that they have everything that they
45:20
need to be successful, whether that is equipment, pay, time
45:26
off, you know, like encouragement, anything that
45:29
they need. Because I just wanted them to
45:32
know that I'm there for them because they're there for me
45:35
more often than I am for that. Like they're, they're there for
45:39
me 40 hours a week at least doing all the work at a
45:43
restaurant with my name on it. So they need to know that I have
45:46
their back at all times. If if you were going to hire
45:50
someone, what are you looking for on a resume?
45:52
I mean do you ever hire anyone with 0 experience?
45:54
Oh, yeah, yeah. But I think the main thing is
45:58
you got to be really nice. You got to be hospitable.
46:00
You got to be driven you. Got to like BBQ.
46:02
Yeah, I. Mean, yeah, you got to like BBQ.
46:05
Yeah. And I mean, that's pretty much
46:08
it. You just got to work hard, be
46:09
nice. Like BBQ.
46:11
You got to be able to give good hospitality.
46:13
Yeah, it's, it's funny, like a lot of people will say, you
46:16
know, I'm working in this restaurant, but I really want to
46:18
open this like, well, then go work in that restaurant.
46:19
Like I, I, I say this all the time.
46:21
If you want to be the best 3 Michelin star chef, then go work
46:24
in a three Michelin star restaurant.
46:25
If you want to be the chef of a cruise ship, go work in a cruise
46:28
ship. You want to be a, you know, the
46:29
best barbecue chef, go work under the best barbecue shop.
46:32
And I think a lot of people, so anyone listening, this is my
46:36
advice to you is like do not be afraid because you're not ready
46:41
today. You're also not going to be
46:42
ready when you think you're ready in a year from now when
46:44
you're getting ready like you don't know what you don't know,
46:46
just go in there and start getting ready.
46:48
Now nobody's ever ready. Just jump in the pool.
46:50
Just jump in, learn now, save yourself some time, go work for
46:54
the best in the type of restaurant that you want to
46:56
eventually be running, and learn from the people that are really
46:59
good at it. 100%. Yeah.
47:01
What does the training program look like?
47:02
Like when someone starts working for you, where do you start?
47:06
That depends on what they are being hired for.
47:08
We kind of have a few main areas of the restaurant.
47:11
We have the BBQ line, which is service focus, but also like
47:15
culinary focus, too. You're scooping sides, you're
47:18
cutting me, but you're also talking to guests and taking
47:21
their order and making sure the plates look nice and are wiped
47:24
down. So you kind of have to have a
47:27
like, varied set of skills for the BBQ line.
47:30
Yeah. If you're in the kitchen, you
47:32
know, you'll start on, I mean, just like the main station
47:36
there, you'll be making the burgers, you'll be making the
47:38
chopped cheese, the onion rings. We have kind of this dinner menu
47:43
where we have the wood fire grill, you know, And if you're
47:46
on the pits, then you will train to work all of the pits.
47:52
I mean, there's no, like, specific training process other
47:55
than just like you'll start and you'll learn everything and then
47:58
eventually you will know everything.
48:01
Yeah, it's just like it. It takes a long time to learn it
48:04
all. But I mean, there's no like, you
48:06
know, you learn this on day one and this on day 2.
48:09
It's more of just like kind of all right, well, you're in it
48:11
now. Yeah, I love the vibe of of of
48:15
your spot, but but I was I was thinking about this is like
48:17
because you also you didn't start as in BBQ like you working
48:22
in kitchens in New York, correct.
48:25
So is there like a big cultural difference in the in the kitchen
48:28
setting? Like the reason I ask because
48:32
you look so tan all the time, you know, Everyone looks so
48:37
happy there. Yeah, well, that's that's,
48:41
that's my half Mexican roots coming out.
48:45
You're asking if there's a difference culturally in the BBQ
48:48
kitchen versus any other kitchen or fine dining kitchen like.
48:53
When you're when you're working in in one type of kitchen, like
48:55
you go to like ultra high end 3 Michelin start finance, we chef
48:59
and you know, shake hands and hold your and you and you in the
49:02
in the casual. It's like throwing towels and
49:04
and and banging pots and pans. Like what is the the kitchen
49:08
culture like? And because you've seen it all.
49:10
Yeah, I would say it's, I would say it's kind of in the middle
49:13
there. We still, I, I mean, like half
49:15
of we do call each other chef, but half the time it's kind of
49:17
in a facetious joking way. But and then we like I'll, I
49:21
don't know, like my daughter will come in and I'll be like,
49:23
hey, shit, Frankie. But, but we also are
49:29
professional and we take our job seriously.
49:32
We try to take ourselves seriously, but we take our job
49:34
and the food and the task seriously.
49:36
So it's a professional setting. But also we're wearing shorts,
49:40
you know, yeah, it's a denim apron.
49:41
It's a T-shirt and we're getting sweaty out in the pits and it's
49:46
casual, but it's executed at a high level.
49:50
That's, that's the point of BBQ, the way that we do it.
49:52
That's the point of our restaurant.
49:55
That's what I like is like that very high level of food, but in
49:59
a casual setting. So I know you're working on
50:01
something, You're working on a book.
50:02
Right. That's right.
50:03
Yeah, Yeah. Can you tell us about that?
50:04
Yes, it's called New School BBQ. It's coming out next spring from
50:08
Abrams Books. I wrote it with Paula Forbes,
50:11
who's a great friend and a cookbook expert and a great
50:14
writer, and photos all came out amazing.
50:18
Done by Matt Taylor Gross it is. Basically, did it take you to do
50:23
this and when did you start the? Cookbook process is so intense,
50:26
dude. I didn't.
50:27
I thought that people just like put these things out like it was
50:29
nothing and it was it's every single step of the process.
50:33
I'm just like, this is so much more work than I thought it
50:35
would. Be Was it your initial idea to
50:36
do the cookbook? Yeah, yeah, someone came to you.
50:38
Yeah, it was. Yeah.
50:39
I've wanted to do it for a long time.
50:40
I love cookbooks. I like all parts of this entire
50:43
industry. I love food, TV.
50:45
I love cookbooks. I love all this stuff so and I I
50:49
really like teaching people too. So I think that's like part of
50:52
why I wanted to do the book and I wanted to kind of like put a
50:54
period on the end of the sentence of just people ask me
50:56
all the time. How do you do the cheeks?
50:57
How do you do the flat iron? How do you do that?
50:59
How do you do all this stuff? And we have some YouTube videos
51:02
and stuff, but I really wanted to just like put it out there
51:06
like in the most perfect way possible.
51:09
So that's the idea with the book.
51:10
It's called new school BBQ. It has the foil boat method in
51:13
there. It has our cheeks recipe in
51:14
there. It has a whole bunch of stuff in
51:15
there. It took a long time to do the
51:19
proposal, which is basically like you write a chapter and you
51:23
write the table of contents and you kind of like write
51:25
something. It's like a pitch deck that you
51:27
sell to publishers. Yeah.
51:29
And then it. And you did this with your Co
51:31
writer, yes? Yes, yes.
51:33
And then once it's sold, we, it, it takes a year to write the
51:37
thing. And then the photo shoot was
51:40
probably the most stressful part of it because you have to
51:43
organize everybody, which I'm, I'm very bad at, just like being
51:47
an organized person, you have to organize everybody.
51:50
You have to like make sure that you're capturing every single
51:53
shot. And it's like we had to do 100
51:55
recipes, like, in eight days, and every single shot has to be
51:58
lit and, like, propped and dressed and it's all crazy.
52:03
Yeah. Foods getting cold and yeah, dry
52:06
and. Yeah, but it doesn't really
52:07
matter. Foods cold in a photo.
52:09
But sometimes you. Can see it.
52:11
Right. Sometimes the sauce is a little
52:12
yeah skin on. It like oxidization on the
52:15
brisket or something. Yeah, yeah.
52:16
So we had to like cut it quickly, but then it took it's
52:21
so it took a whole year to write the book.
52:23
It was a 10 day photo shoot. And now we are in the editing
52:26
process and design process and that's going to take about six
52:29
months. And then they got to send it to
52:30
the printer and for that to come back, it's going to take about
52:33
six months. So it's like 2 1/2, three-year
52:35
project. Wow, it's intense.
52:38
Wow, that, that, that's crazy. I, I mean, I've written books,
52:42
but I, I, I publish. I I publish fast.
52:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck I'll. I write a book today, I'll have
52:46
it on next week, but it's just me.
52:48
Like edit. Yeah, and there's no photos.
52:51
Yeah, there's no photos. Right.
52:51
And there's no, it's not like a design process.
52:54
Like a photo, like I'll if I need a like a a comic, I'll
52:56
create it with AI or something like that.
52:59
Because, you know, initially, you know, for mean, right.
53:00
So yeah, for mean was the whole inspiration behind me writing my
53:04
first chefs PSA book. But what I wanted to do, like,
53:07
are you familiar with like what rubber hose style animation is?
53:11
So like, think like old Mickey Mouse cartoons, like where the
53:16
like, stuff like that. Yeah.
53:18
So that's rubber hook. Like I wanted to do a cartoon
53:21
book like that. Yeah.
53:23
Where like the chefs doing bad habits.
53:25
Yeah, yeah. Bunch of onions in their apron
53:27
or something like that. All these towels, like a hula
53:31
skirt. So like, I, I wanted to do that,
53:32
but I was like, I don't know how to do that.
53:33
And now I was like with AI, like you could like I could probably
53:35
have a whole cartoon series by the end of the year.
53:37
Yeah. But with how quickly that that
53:40
AI text to video is going. But anyway, last couple of
53:44
questions I want to ask you, chef.
53:46
By the way, congratulations on the book.
53:48
I'm excited. I hope that I get a copy soon.
53:51
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
53:53
I'm, I'm super excited. I'm I'm definitely a fan of what
53:56
you're doing. But if you had a Mount Rushmore
53:59
out there, the people that have inspired you, chefs, who's on
54:03
it? Wow, I've I've been that.
54:06
I think the first person who ever got me interested in food
54:09
was Alton Brown. I was, I was, I would go
54:11
straight from cartoons on Saturday morning to Good Eats,
54:14
like to the Food Network. So I'm going to put him up
54:17
there. I would put, I would put Aaron
54:18
Frankel up there. He'd done so much for the for
54:22
the cuisine, for Austin, for BBQ.
54:25
He's also a good friend. Yeah, huge respect.
54:29
For Aaron Franklin. He's he's just a really cool
54:32
beyond everything he's done yeah, he's a cool guy and a nice
54:35
guy and just a great person Yeah.
54:39
I, I mean, I'll, I'll put Jesse up there just for I, I think I
54:43
probably put Jesse and Bryce up there, Yeah, just because they,
54:47
they're. For people that are listening.
54:48
Bryce Gilmore yeah, and Jesse Griffis, just because they're
54:51
like the the local people. And that's what's more, that's
54:54
what's so important to me is locality.
54:56
I'm from Austin. I think that we have some of the
54:59
best food here. I think that we have some of the
55:00
best produce, some of the best meats, some of the best
55:02
agriculture. So I'm a big Austin, TX guy.
55:06
Yeah, yeah. For Austin, for people that are
55:09
not familiar with it, it's like not what you expect when you get
55:12
here. The food scene, like, like, I
55:13
mean, like I'll have someone in from out of town.
55:15
Like I didn't expect Austin to be like this.
55:17
Like, yeah, Austin's downtown is more live than a lot of cities.
55:21
Oh yeah. The food scene is, is deep.
55:23
There's a lot of a lot of people moving here.
55:25
There's a lot to do. It's not what people expect.
55:27
And by the way, for people that don't know, it's also the
55:29
podcast Capital of the world. Really.
55:31
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm here.
55:34
Yeah, five stars. If you had a, if you had a
55:38
chef's PSA out there, what would it?
55:40
Be I think I would say that it is important to be different.
55:45
It's important to differentiate yourself, you know, and that's
55:47
like kind of always been my thing in the BBQ space is to be
55:51
just a little bit different. I love serving this community
55:55
this like this community in itself is just a different type
55:59
of place. It's a more relaxed place.
56:02
It's just, it's Austin, TX and I like, I think that my food
56:07
reflects that. Yeah, kind of just what I was
56:09
saying in like elevated food, casual atmosphere.
56:13
That's kind of what I'm all about.
56:14
Awesome chef, you have a lot going on.
56:18
Book, YouTube channel, restaurant, Michelin star.
56:22
Where can people find you? Mostly on Instagram.
56:25
Evan Leroy BBQ at Leroy and Lewis also on Instagram.
56:29
Follow us on YouTube. Definitely get the book next
56:32
year. New school BBQ.
56:33
Yeah, congratulations on everything.
56:34
Man, thank you, thank you, thank you.
56:36
I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you want to support Chefs
56:38
PSA, here are some things that you can do.
56:41
You can go to chefspsa.com where you get all the books that I
56:44
published, including some free ebooks.
56:46
You could go to the shop, shop.chefspsa.com and get
56:50
yourself some hoodies, some hats and T-shirts and support the
56:54
show. If you want early access to
56:56
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and sub stack and get the episode.
57:02
For anyone else, get Chef Phrase.
57:04
And of course, if you're watching on YouTube, make sure
57:06
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57:07
If you're listening on Spotify or Apple or anywhere else, make
57:11
sure you leave five stars, nothing less than five stars.
57:14
It's a five star podcast. We'll see you next week.
57:16
At the porn on me.