Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 33: Navigating Neurodiversity, Betrayal, and Healing

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33: Navigating Neurodiversity, Betrayal, and Healing · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Hey everybody, I'm excited for this episode today.
0:03
Question for you as you're on your journey, how many times you
0:07
reflected back to yourself and said when you're outside of
0:11
having that experience filled with shame, when you're like, oh
0:14
man, I can't believe I'm here. And there's the self loathing.
0:17
Just thought to yourself thinking about the root, like
0:20
what's at the root, like what is actually going on here?
0:23
And whether you've done work with a professional or not, I'm
0:26
excited to have a conversation today of more, some of what's
0:31
out the root with a conversation with Kevin.
0:33
We're going to jump into it. Welcome to Beyond the Facade
0:39
podcast. I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and
0:41
I'm thrilled to have you join me in this space today.
0:43
What we're going to be doing is diving deep into the trials and
0:46
triumphs and truths of seeking authenticity.
0:49
Becoming your true self isn't about a single action or a
0:52
moment. It's a relentless pursuit, a
0:55
commitment to self that reveals the rich connection and meaning
0:58
that our life has to offer. So whether this is your first
1:00
time tuning in or you're a regular listener, know this.
1:04
What you're building here goes beyond a conversation.
1:06
You're here to challenge, to change, and to celebrate the
1:09
incredible journey of becoming your authentic self.
1:12
Because when you dare to show up fully, the rewards are
1:15
immeasurable. So, welcome to be on the Facade.
1:17
Let's get started. All right, everybody, welcome
1:22
again. I am really excited to introduce
1:24
you to Kevin Meek. Kevin is something I've known
1:27
for a little bit. Him and his wife, they have an
1:30
organization called Living Stones Coaching and he's a
1:32
mentor and teen years of what do you want to call it, 13 years of
1:38
what, Kevin? Recovery and sobriety. 13 years
1:41
of recovery and sobriety. The thing I find really powerful
1:44
about Kevin and his story is he was diagnosed with autism.
1:47
How long ago, Kevin? That'd be about actually three
1:51
years. Ago, three years ago and we're
1:53
going to talk a little bit about that, the impact that it that
1:56
had before then on relationships, because that's
1:59
what we talk a lot about here, connection, intimacy with other
2:03
people and how the stuff that we have going on underneath the
2:06
surface or above the surface, how that impacts that.
2:10
But we're going to talk about that today.
2:13
So I'm going to kick this off with acknowledging that Kevin
2:17
and I both experienced neurodiversity.
2:19
We're going to focus on Kevin's experience with it, and there's
2:24
some key aspects. Kevin, do you mind speaking
2:27
about yourself and telling people who you are since I just
2:30
slaughtered it? No, that's great.
2:32
Thanks so much for that and I appreciate the opportunity to to
2:34
be here today. Really found myself struggling
2:38
in a journey of life and not really feeling like I was
2:41
fitting in. I was struggling in my
2:42
relationship at home and as a result of that I made poor
2:47
decisions and ended up having multiple affairs.
2:51
From that then began a very strong and connected recovery
2:56
program for that. When we first started recovery,
2:59
my wife was kind of like, look, it's your problem, you need to
3:01
figure this out. And so I was three years into
3:04
recovery before my wife took a a pause to look at some of the
3:08
things going on in her life as well.
3:10
And then in our relationship, we were both very committed to
3:13
figuring this thing out. And for the next 10 years after
3:17
that, we banged our head against the wall trying to figure out
3:21
how it just seemed like we were two ships just kind of passing.
3:24
And the harder that I would try to connect with my wife, the
3:27
more I missed. And we tried a lot of different
3:31
things. We had been through intensives.
3:33
We had been through several different counselors and we had
3:37
looked at some other diagnosis. And it was really Shauna's
3:41
therapist one day who said, gosh, a lot of these things that
3:43
you're sharing with me about Kevin really sounds like he
3:47
might be on the autism spectrum. And immediately Shauna said, no,
3:52
he's not autistic. And and when she shared it with
3:54
me, I go, no, I don't think I'm autistic.
3:57
And we dismissed it and continued to struggle with that
4:02
until I've heard a podcast from somebody who was autistic and
4:07
they shared a little bit about what their life was like.
4:10
And I, it just hit me and I was like, wow, that's me.
4:14
And I'm a registered nurse by background.
4:16
So I have a clinical lens. And so I wanted to have a whole
4:20
neuro clinical psychological evaluation done.
4:23
So I went in, no, no preconceived tips to the
4:28
therapist that I thought I was autistic or anything like that.
4:32
And 'cause I wasn't sure if if it really was or maybe there was
4:35
ADHD or some component of that. And after a really thorough
4:39
evaluation, I was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder level 1
4:43
at the age of 50. And really, man, you want to
4:47
talk about just getting hit with another relational?
4:51
I don't want to call it a betrayal, but just another thing
4:53
to grieve in the relationship. It was it was a big hit for us.
4:58
Yeah, I got a couple questions for your story.
5:00
Really, really powerful. Why did you dismiss it?
5:05
What what made you sit and hear it at 1st and somebody say it?
5:09
And what why the dismissing it? Yeah, great question.
5:12
I think unfortunately, I fell into the same stereotypical
5:16
societal view of autism as other people do, which we think of the
5:21
Rain Man with the headphones on, rocking it in the chair.
5:25
We think of kids that are in school that are on special
5:28
programs. And unfortunately that's the
5:31
view that is is in society. Now that individual is more of
5:35
an autistic Level 3. And remember, it's a spectrum.
5:38
So there's different levels. The autism spectrum one, it used
5:43
to be called Asperger's or high functioning autism.
5:47
So these are individuals that hold jobs, they have
5:49
relationships, they are good with finances, all of those
5:52
types of things. And so I have, I have 5 college
5:56
degrees, I have a good job, I'm respected in my field.
6:00
And so it just, it didn't seem like it fit to what
6:04
stereotypically was thought of as autism.
6:07
So that's why initially we didn't think that was it.
6:11
I had a therapist who actually said, no, I don't think you have
6:14
autism because you can make eye contact.
6:17
And while that is a component of autism having a difficulty with
6:21
eye contact, it's not the one and done as as often.
6:25
As said, when you meet one autistic, you've met one
6:28
autistic because how the characteristics display across
6:32
different people are all really unique.
6:35
Yeah, that was, I don't know, I have strong feelings about that,
6:39
that you met with a professional and they said, OK, you don't,
6:42
you didn't you make a good eye contact.
6:44
So that means that can't be the case.
6:45
Yeah, I, I actually had a therapist that I fired who was
6:50
just irate at me. And basically what he told me
6:54
was, Kevin, you continue to just try and find excuses.
6:58
And the reality was, is it wasn't trying to find excuses.
7:02
It was, I was, we were struggling and continuing to try
7:04
and find what it was, what was underneath that, what was the
7:08
root. And so yeah, it it's unfortunate
7:11
that that it can be misdiagnosed in high functioning individuals
7:15
many times. All right.
7:16
So yeah, I got a question for you.
7:18
What was it like for you when you got the diagnosis?
7:24
Band what's crazy is often times recovery.
7:26
We can remember D-Day like it was yesterday, right, regardless
7:29
of how long it ago it was. And, and I can remember the day
7:32
that, that we received my diagnosis from the clinical
7:35
psychologist like it was yesterday.
7:38
It, it, it had that big of an impact to us.
7:41
We felt that we were going to get a diagnosis of autism and,
7:44
and we did. And this psychologist was
7:49
fantastic. She nailed all the components,
7:51
really spoke to my wife Shawna, and, and addressed things that
7:55
she had probably seen over the years and gave them meaning and
7:59
gave them a, a point. And then we hung up the phone
8:02
and I remember Shawn and I just sitting there on the couch
8:05
together, really just feeling like we had both just taken a
8:08
gut punch. And about the only words that I
8:13
could really muster up to her were that that I was so sorry
8:17
that this could have looked so different.
8:20
And she thanked me for that. And then I went upstairs and
8:25
curled up in the ball and literally rocked myself to to
8:29
sleep. And what I meant by it could
8:32
have looked so different. Is this just the pain and the
8:36
struggle and the hardship that we went through for really post
8:42
discovery for over a decade. And, and really in our
8:46
relationship, we've been together for 20 some years.
8:49
We have a really unique story that we were married, divorced
8:53
and remarried, and then infidelity came in our second
8:57
marriage. And so, you know that that's a
8:59
lot of history that could have looked really different.
9:02
And I do believe, as does my wife, that my autism played a
9:05
role into some of those camouflaging and masking and
9:09
facading over the years. And it was a really hard time
9:12
for us because I think our relationship could have looked
9:15
really different. That's powerful and I I don't
9:18
know how much of it is just my own me projecting on you like my
9:23
own experience, but I don't know to be able to let's just say
9:30
what comes to my mind is that I can imagine somebody not knowing
9:35
the impact of finally getting information and what that would
9:39
do to you, your body to go, oh, here's information like that.
9:45
I didn't know and how could this will look different?
9:48
Yeah, I just find that to be really impactful.
9:51
Yeah. Could you speak to like your
9:54
wife and her saying like, I don't know if he's got it either
9:57
and then her getting the information because I don't
10:00
know, I don't want to put that on you.
10:01
Like did it? Was it, did you know, did she
10:03
not want you to have it or and then later when she got it, can
10:07
you speak to that? Yeah.
10:09
And again, I think for so many, it's that stereotypical view.
10:13
So I don't. So I'm a nurse.
10:15
So I'm a male nurse. My wife had struggled with that
10:17
at times in the past. Why don't you want to be a
10:19
doctor? And I think that there's these
10:22
kind of what we, the facade that we want others to see of us.
10:26
And I think that there was really some protection of that
10:28
and not wanting to have that. I also know that so one of the
10:32
things those of us with a neurodiversity and autism really
10:35
struggle with is that emotional connection.
10:37
And that is something that is just the deepest desire for my
10:41
wife. And I think that there was
10:43
probably a part of that that she didn't want to accept.
10:45
That might be a reality as well. And if it is, then I don't know
10:49
if I'm ever going to get the depth of emotion that I want in
10:53
my relationship. And that was really hard for her
10:56
as well. What we've been able to work
10:59
through is realizing that, OK, that depth that we both desire.
11:04
And that's a key important part that we both do desire that
11:07
depth. I just struggle to get there.
11:10
She can go there in the split second and, and it takes me work
11:13
to get there. We have that depth of connection
11:16
in our relationship today. It doesn't look the same as
11:19
neurotypical couples or couples who don't struggle with autism
11:24
in their relationship. It does take some more work for
11:28
us. We do have to navigate some
11:30
challenges along the way with my my miscueing and and some of
11:34
those things that come up in conversations, but we're really
11:37
now focused on making it the best that it can be.
11:41
That's really cool. OK, so can you talk to, I would
11:46
love to hear you talk about and let me set us up like this.
11:49
I have I have a really intense ADHD like it's and I have a lot
11:54
of like rejection sensitivity as a part of ADHD, just hyper aware
11:58
of other people's emotions. All the stuff the ADHD and I
12:02
finally been listening to enough people that I've been like
12:05
really, really successful people that have ADHD of going.
12:09
I've even heard people say it's like a superpower.
12:11
And now I've been tying in what I've been able to accomplish in
12:13
my life for my ADHD. And now I'm like, now I'm like
12:17
fond of it in a way and appreciative of it.
12:20
And now I see it in other men and I'm like, I don't know.
12:23
It's like it's so can you contrast or can you compare that
12:28
to what you experienced and talk about the powerful parts of
12:31
autism? I'm so glad that you brought
12:33
that up. I, I think that the one word
12:36
that when people ask me, So what was it like to get a, a
12:38
diagnosis of autism? The one word that I used over
12:42
and over again is empowering. It was so like we had struggled
12:46
for so long to figure out what that route was.
12:49
And so it became very empowering.
12:51
The the one thing I want to mention with that is that my
12:55
diagnosis of autism can and never should be an excuse for
13:02
any of my behavior. My choices were still my
13:05
choices. Yes, I have autism.
13:07
I've had it my whole life, didn't know it.
13:09
But that doesn't excuse the fact that because I didn't know it
13:12
that I get a get out of jail free card or a hall pass because
13:16
of it. And so for me, it became very
13:18
empowering to say, OK, so I have autism.
13:22
What are the tools now? Just as I put tools in place for
13:25
my recovery, to stay sober and to not have relapse and
13:29
everything else now, what are the tools that I need to put in
13:32
place in my relationship to grow because of my autism?
13:36
And I do believe that there are really successful things, as
13:39
you've mentioned, that people learn and can put into place.
13:42
I have an emotion check in that pops up on my phone that gets me
13:45
to engage with emotions. I have questions that are
13:48
written down that I that I asked my wife.
13:50
And the first time, yeah, it might feel a little robotic, but
13:53
the more that that we get to do that, the more that it becomes
13:56
natural for us and how we can express ourselves.
14:01
But the other thing too, is, for instance, holidays or events
14:05
that are really loud. Those are so overwhelming for
14:08
me. Now I have ear, not plugs, but
14:11
I, I have a ear devices that I put in that help bring that
14:14
noise down to help calm that stimulation.
14:17
I if, if I need to go take a walk for well, great example.
14:22
We went to Disneyland and every three hours dad had a brain
14:27
break and didn't matter what we were doing.
14:29
I went and found a quiet spot in the park and I just took some
14:33
brass and just reset myself because all of the people, the
14:37
noises, the lights, the everything else, it, it just
14:40
overwhelmed me. So in the past, I would lose my
14:43
crap by the afternoon and make the happiest place on earth, the
14:48
most frightening for the kids. And so finding way.
14:52
And so it became very empowering that I could do.
14:54
And my family is supporting me in that.
14:56
Not going. What's dad doing over there now?
14:58
And so that's how we've been able to embrace it and really
15:02
not just in our relationship, but even as a family
15:04
relationship, feel empowered through that.
15:08
What did you I'm also drawn back to that podcast you listened to
15:13
that made you wonder for the first time.
15:15
As I listen, you talk about like sensory overload with just
15:18
sound, like any breaks. What did you hear somebody say
15:21
that went like, huh, maybe. What do you remember the kind of
15:23
stuff that you heard? I, I do because I've listened to
15:25
that podcast numerous times since then to continue it, It
15:31
really came down to a couple of things.
15:32
One was the feeling of overwhelmed emotionally.
15:36
So when either in in a space like Disneyland like that, or
15:41
even in a conversation with my wife, who is very emotionally
15:44
attuned to herself, I, I can feel very overwhelmed with
15:48
questions and with share with me how you're feeling like all of
15:51
those things became very challenging for me finding
15:54
myself connecting with hobbies to distract myself.
15:59
So when I look at areas in my recovery where I fell short, it
16:03
was often because I became busy and I got busy with maybe work
16:07
or a task or something else and putting processes and in
16:11
projects over people. And then the last component was
16:16
this complex word that they talked about called alexithymia,
16:20
which is really the difficulty acknowledging feelings both in
16:25
our self and what others are experiencing.
16:29
So my wife would often say, gosh, sweetheart, you just you
16:32
don't cry when I cry, like your emotion isn't there.
16:36
And she would take that to feel like I'm not upset over
16:40
something because my emotion didn't match hers.
16:43
And many times we would get into disagreements over that.
16:48
And so being able to acknowledge those differences and I'm like,
16:51
that's exactly what I do. And I dove a little more into it
16:55
and the shoe fit. Yeah.
16:57
Did you elaborate on what you feel inside around?
17:01
I can't sense what I it's funny. I'm asking you to feel about
17:05
them not being able to feel like can you do whatever you can to
17:08
describe what you experience? Yeah, one of the things that so
17:13
I struggle with just identification of a feeling.
17:16
And so I use a lot of somatic, I use a lot of I'll feel tightness
17:20
in my chest or I feel an emptiness in my gut or I feel a
17:25
pain in my head. And then we use a tool instead
17:29
of the feelings wheel 'cause that can be very complex for
17:31
somebody with neurodiverse. We use a mood meter.
17:34
And so is it pleasant or unpleasant?
17:36
And then what's the amount of energy that is in that
17:39
sensation? And then that helps us narrow in
17:42
this ballpark of feelings. And then it's like, oh, OK, so
17:46
now I can connect that that experience and in that body
17:51
sensation to a feeling and begin to bridge that gap.
17:54
So I think for me it was a lot tension and which now I would
18:00
call the anxiety and just that stress of knowing what this is,
18:06
having it inside and trying to hold it in.
18:09
OK, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
18:11
One of the things I was looking most forward to talking to you
18:14
today was this thing called masking.
18:18
So let's tie this in a little bit of the name of the podcast,
18:21
which is called Beyond the Facade.
18:23
And they always envision, and not that it wasn't, the name
18:26
wasn't created out of this, but Beyond the Facade was like
18:30
masking. Like I'm trying to hide you from
18:32
me, but I also want to have a be more, not broad, but more
18:38
powerful. And they have more meaning of
18:40
what masking actually is, what the mask is about.
18:43
Can you tell us what masking has to do with what we're talking
18:46
about today? I love that and, and I'll use 2
18:48
words interchangeably there. We talked about which is masking
18:51
and camouflaging. And really they go hand in hand.
18:54
And again, they're both a facade and often times when someone who
18:58
is neurodiverse is trying to interact socially in a social
19:02
environment. So think of a, a, a party with
19:05
friends over, right? That's a very stressful
19:08
situation. It's overwhelming, but we know
19:10
we're supposed to be fitting it. And so I walk into a
19:13
conversation and it's two guys. They're talking about basket
19:18
weaving, right. Oh, man.
19:19
Did you get those new reads? And did you get that, You know,
19:21
and well, well, I mean, Kevin, you know how to do that too,
19:25
right? Yeah.
19:27
I, I mean, I sure do, you know, I, I haven't done it a lot and
19:31
it's just crap. I, I don't know anything about
19:34
that. So you're trying to, you fit in,
19:36
you're trying to camouflage and to mask into that situation to
19:39
be a part of that. And that is a really strong part
19:45
of somebody who is no diverse with autism.
19:48
That is exhausting work. Exhausting.
19:51
Exhausting. And So what typically happens is
19:54
so again, I said I'm very successful at work.
19:57
So I go to work in the morning. Good morning, Kevin.
19:59
Good morning. Good morning, Tom.
20:00
Good morning. And I am masking and coping all
20:03
day long. We we use the analogy of I'm
20:04
spending spoons and then I get in the car.
20:07
Yeah, spending spoons is what my wife and I.
20:10
So it's how many spoons do you have left at the end of the day
20:13
when you come home? And by the time I've navigated
20:16
traffic and everything else, I come home and I'm empty.
20:21
And then my wife says, oh, hi, babe, welcome.
20:24
How I got nothing left. And at that point, the
20:27
exhaustion of masculine coping and camouflaging all and coping
20:32
to get through my day are over. And now here comes, you know,
20:37
the angry, the frustrated, the everything else that comes out
20:41
from the day because I didn't know how to express and share
20:46
with my boss that I was upset with him.
20:48
And so I just smiled and took it like a champ and then came home.
20:53
And it really is a strong component of autism that masking
20:59
and camouflaging. There's actually, if your
21:01
listeners want to check it out, there's actually an assessment,
21:04
it's called the AT CAT-Q, it's the cap Q and it's a camouflage
21:10
and, and masking assessment for somebody.
21:13
And really what it does is it asks you these situations and
21:15
how you interact with them. And really for anyone that has a
21:19
neurodiversity or a codependency or something like that, 'cause
21:23
it's not just neurodiverse that that may mask or camouflage.
21:27
Yeah, yeah, I think I'm gonna try to articulate this and maybe
21:30
you could help me clean it up if it needs it.
21:33
You're talking about going through the day, showing up the
21:35
way that you're supposed to, saying hi and your cups getting
21:37
drained or your spoons are giving away whatever you said
21:40
about the spoon. And I think about that with my
21:44
neurodiversity. That's exactly how I feel.
21:47
Like exactly. I'm just done.
21:49
And then the people that I love the most get left with nothing
21:52
at the end of the day because I have nothing.
21:54
It's not because I don't want to give them anything.
21:56
It's. I high right?
21:58
I spent so long going, Luke, get your crap together.
22:01
Come on, dude, get your crap together.
22:03
Like you got to be more emotionally present.
22:06
What I didn't realize is for other people that would fill
22:09
their cup, that would empty my cup.
22:12
Absolutely. And I was just like, what's
22:14
wrong with me? Like what's wrong with me?
22:16
And I think that's why I found your story so powerful is that's
22:20
why I was so impactful to hear, Oh, this is it's a part of my
22:24
experience. And again, not as an excuse to
22:28
not engage. Yep, that's why when I'm at
22:31
Disneyland, that's why I take the breaks so I can be engaged
22:34
because my brain doesn't work the same as other people's.
22:36
That's why when I come home from work, maybe I need to take 30
22:39
minutes to just go be by myself and reset before I come back and
22:44
engage with the family so I don't pop off over who hasn't up
22:48
their shoes or their backpack from the day.
22:50
Yeah. It, it's, again, it's finding
22:52
those tools just like we did in recovery to, to be sober and to
22:56
have longevity with that It, it's fighting those tools that,
23:00
that we can employ and that we can partner with our wife and
23:04
our family to be successful, right.
23:07
That's really the goal is to be successful in our relationships.
23:10
Yeah, there was a part of masking or camouflaging that I
23:15
wanted to get to and get your thoughts on this.
23:18
I think a lot of if I could speak to the betrayed partner,
23:22
the partner in healing often when I sit with them and they I
23:27
get the opportunity when we do women's intensives to go in and
23:30
and do a guest speaking and answer questions.
23:32
Get inside the brain of somebody who experiences compulsive
23:35
behavior. Ask any question you want to.
23:36
Let's talk about it. Yeah, they do a lot of the how
23:40
could he lied to me? How could he do what he did?
23:43
Like how could he be aware of it?
23:45
And then I think about like, well, it's not like you're
23:48
extremely present in your values at the point you act outside
23:54
your values, not present. And I think about the masking
23:57
piece, and I think about with my own version of masking, it's the
24:01
layers of different ways of coping that allowed me to not
24:05
really be a present. And I don't think I had the
24:09
ability to understand the level of masking that I was doing and
24:13
how much of A journey it was to actually understand what masking
24:17
actually looked like for me. Like, where did I end and where
24:20
did the masking begin? What was me and what was not?
24:24
What was masking? Totally agree.
24:27
And I think that remember, this is something that that we've
24:30
struggled with our entire life. So when we were kids growing up
24:34
and making friends and everything else, that masking
24:36
and that facade really became a part of who we were at an early
24:40
age. And then that facade grew with
24:43
us as we got older and we no longer just have this little kid
24:47
facade because we stick out all around here.
24:49
So that facade had to get bigger because our faces got bigger.
24:51
And so it, it really became The Who we were.
24:56
And it's, that's the part that was so empowering for me is that
24:59
when I had a diagnosis and, and we finally could go, this is
25:03
what it is. I no longer felt like I had to
25:06
carry that facade around. And now I tell people, I'm
25:10
sorry, I do struggle with autism.
25:12
And that's part of why I look kind of rude to you there.
25:15
My apologies for that. In my tone and how that came
25:18
across, what I was really trying to say was this, right?
25:22
And and I own it and I take it and I move on.
25:25
I don't carry shame with it. Yeah, there's things that that I
25:28
do that I'm not overly proud of my tone, my inflections and
25:32
things like that. But it it's who I am.
25:35
It's how God created me and made me.
25:38
Yeah, Kevin, when it comes to people that are sitting there
25:41
going, oh, maybe there is something to this you mentioned
25:43
like there's the cat, what did you say?
25:45
What did you call? It yeah, the cat dash Q or cat Q
25:48
assessment. Was did you say that you can
25:51
just Google that and find that anywhere, or was there somewhere
25:54
you recommended that people go to?
25:55
I didn't. I so I do think that there is a
25:58
great, a great website that has many assessments on it.
26:01
It is embrace Hyphen Autism. And that was actually the
26:05
website that was referenced in the podcast that I first
26:09
listened to. And as soon as I finished the
26:10
podcast, I went to the coffee shop and got online and dove
26:14
into it. And so a lot of good information
26:16
there that's specific to autism. There's another website out
26:19
there. It is A&E, and that is the
26:23
Autism and Asperger's Network, and that has neurodiversity
26:26
components in that. And yeah, we're just really
26:29
passionate, again, to help folks that are committed to this
26:33
journey of recovery and betrayal, repair and restoration
26:37
in their relationships and still struggling to connect the dots
26:40
along the way. Yeah, where would people find
26:43
you if they wanted to meet you? Yeah, great.
26:45
They can just check out our website which is Living Stones
26:49
with an S coaching.com and there's information on there for
26:53
my wife and I and my wife actually wrote a book about our
26:56
story that's available through the website as well.
26:59
And. What's the name of the book?
27:02
The book is actually called Determined for More.
27:05
That's cool. Yeah.
27:06
Anyway, I'd totally encourage people to go check all of that
27:09
stuff out. I think it's, I think you guys
27:12
are giving everybody a gift and I appreciate that so much.
27:15
It's the way that you talk about your journey.
27:17
It's really beautiful. Specifically how you just own
27:19
like behavior, past behavior and own your experience.
27:23
I think it's empowering. Do you have any like blast
27:27
closing thoughts, Kevin for our listeners?
27:30
I do, I think that the one thing is that I just want to encourage
27:34
folks that if you are in a neurodiverse relationship and
27:37
there has been betrayal in that relationship as well, there is
27:41
hope. It, it, it can be done.
27:43
It takes intentionality, it takes word, but the reward is so
27:47
much greater. My wife and I have at times we
27:50
feel like we've been through hell and back.
27:52
And for those that have gone through this journey as well,
27:55
you, you can relate to that. And as weird as it is, we, we
28:00
both say, but we wouldn't trade it.
28:03
We, we, we wouldn't because we wouldn't.
28:05
We know we wouldn't be where we are today had we not been
28:09
through what we had to get through to get here.
28:12
There's hope and there's encouragement for it.
28:15
One last message, if, if this is appropriate and I recognize it's
28:19
not her words, what would your wife be saying to the partners
28:24
of the men that listen to this? What message would she have to
28:27
say to the because we do have the partner in healing, the
28:31
betrayed partner Listen to these podcasts often.
28:35
What would she be saying to them?
28:37
I think there's kind of two sides to that.
28:39
One is, did you know before the betrayal that your husband was
28:43
neurodiverse or did you find out?
28:46
Or do you think maybe your husband is neurodiverse as a
28:50
result of the work that you've done post discovery as you're
28:54
working through the betrayal side of it?
28:56
And those both have a component of that.
29:00
There is a grief and a loss happens with betrayal, and there
29:03
is a grief and a loss that comes in a relationship that didn't
29:06
know you were neurodiverse, that then found out you were
29:09
neurodiverse. And so it's really important
29:12
that that the two are looked at separately and how they might
29:16
affect each other, and then really how you have to, as
29:20
individuals, both the betrayer and the betrayed work through
29:24
each of those components. That's cool.
29:26
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
29:29
OK, everybody, thank you for taking the time to listen today.
29:32
We appreciate you. It's a journey, Kevin.
29:35
Absolutely, yeah. There is no there's no end like
29:38
there's no finish, there's no make it.
29:40
There is new information. There's there's new information,
29:43
there's new levels of awareness, there's new tools that can be
29:46
used, there's new areas to connect, to be seen and to have
29:50
it look and feel different. Not that necessarily means that
29:54
there's going to be an absence of pain and all that.
29:57
But anyway, thank you again, Kevin, appreciate your time.
29:59
Absolutely, thanks for having me.
30:03
Hey, thanks for joining us today.
30:05
If this is something that you connected with, I'd love to meet
30:08
with you more and talk about it. So what you can do is go to
30:10
chooserecoveryservices.com or check the show notes and there
30:14
what we can do is set up a quick conversation we need.
30:17
Thanks so much for listening to Beyond the Facade where we
30:19
unmask the authentic itself.