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The DOGE Who Caught the Car · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: On today's show, the Doge wrecking ball continues to swing.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: but it looks like the Supreme Court and maybe even
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump might be clipping Elon's wings. We'll get into
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: all the latest there. The government runs out of money
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: next week, but Congress is busy scolding one of its
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: members for interrupting Trump's State of the Union. Speaking of which,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I sat down with our pal Sarah Longwell from The
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Bulwark the morning after the big speech to talk about
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: how voters are processing the first month of Trump 2.0.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: So stick around for that conversation later. But first, we
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: have some important updates to share. on how the golden
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: age of America is coming along. A few days after
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: launching an economic trade war against our fiercest adversaries in
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Canada and Mexico, Trump is already backing down. On Wednesday,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: the White House announced that their new 25% tax on
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: everything we buy that's made in Canada or Mexico would
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: exempt cars, preventing what analysts say would be up to
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: a $ 12, 000 increase in car prices. Then on Thursday, Right
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: before we started recording, obviously, Trump said, just kidding, trade
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: war is basically off until April 2nd on most goods
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: from Canada and Mexico. What changed, you might ask? Well,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Canada didn't offer any concessions. Mexico didn't offer any concessions.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: But here in the United States, the stock market tanked
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: over the last week. The Atlanta Fed's forecast model now
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: predicts that the economy will shrink this quarter. Consumer sentiment
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: is at an eight-month low. Retail sales dropped by the
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: largest amount in two years. And even though the Bureau
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of Labor Statistics jobs report won't be out until you're
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: listening to this, we learned on Thursday that employers cut
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: more jobs in February than at any time since the
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: last two recessions. I don't know, Dan. Do you think
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: any of those economic developments might have factored into Trump's
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: decision to surrender to Canada and Mexico after just a
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: couple days?
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: I do. I do think it did. Because if there's
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: one thing Trump cares about, it's how rich people feel
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: about him. And here are all of his Wall Street buddies,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: his newfound tech friends, all losing tens of millions of
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: dollars in the market over a three-day period. And so
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I think he reacted to that. And frankly, Trump probably
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: also lost a lot of money himself. I'm sure he
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: has money in the market as well. It's not just
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: in various meme coins. I think he probably has some
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: stocks and bonds too. And so yeah, I think that
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: this is– he reacts to it. He takes the Dow
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: very seriously. He used it as a measure of economic
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: success in his first term. He did once tweet a
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: long time ago that if the Dow– any president who
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: has the Dow drop 1,000 points over two days should
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: be impeached. I'm sure he still stands by that opinion.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: But so yeah, I think this is– he blinked because
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: the market responded in a way that he did not anticipate,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: which suggests he really didn't prepare very well for this
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: because it was pretty obvious what was going to happen.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: That's what I was going to say. What did he
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: think was going to happen? Did he think everyone's going
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: to be like, oh, great. America's back. He did say
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: in the, he was asked, uh, we're recording this on
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Thursday afternoon. He was asked in the oval about this.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: And he said, you know, why do you think the
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: stock market has been so spooked? And he said, well,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: a lot of these are globalist companies anyway. It's like,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out like, what does that, what
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: does that mean?
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Companies with business abroad? Like, I don't know. The guy
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: who owns a couple of golf clubs in Scotland.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the stock market. It's also an issue
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: that just aside from the stock market and aside from
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: all his rich friends just breaks through, I think in
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: the media in a pretty big way, because you have
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: impacts of tariffs on like every different region of the country. And,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: you know, we talked about this after the state of
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: the union, I think, I can't remember what we talk
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: about when, but, um, You know, there was like a
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: clip on Fox News of some guy being like, I
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: can't get these cars off the lot now because they're
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: going to be so much more money. So I sort
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: of also wonder if those stories started getting to the
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: White House and made them a little scared.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe. I mean, this was terrible press for him.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Every local paper, local newscast was like how this is
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: going to affect prices for X, right? I saw a
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: headline here in the Bay Area about how the tariffs
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: are going to make Bay Area housing cost even more.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: And so I'm sure you saw that across the board.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: But bad news doesn't really make it to this White House, right?
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: So who knows? But they are responding to the repercussions
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: of this, even if those repercussions were so obviously foreseeable
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: to anyone who paid a lick of attention.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: I got the toughest question of the day for you.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: If you had to make the case that Trump's trade
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: war is an actual cogent strategy, how would you do it?
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't. I have self-respect.
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: No.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Fair.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: It's not possible. And if you want me just as
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: an intellectual exercise to try, the argument would be madman theory,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: that he seems so crazy that people will do what
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: he wants because anything is on the table, right? It's like,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: keep him on their toes.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: It's tough to implement that when what he wants is unknown.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Like this latest one, the first one, there was a
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: few fig leaves that like no one really believed. It
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: was like, you got to help more with fentanyl and
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: you got to do this and trafficking and immigration and
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: all that kind of shit. This time it was just like,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I'm starting to trade war with Canada and Mexico and
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: that's that. And then he does a call with Claudia Sheinbaum,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: the president of Mexico. And I guess the call goes well.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know how the, maybe she flattered him. Maybe
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: she told him the speech was great. on Tuesday night
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: and didn't even, I guess he didn't even have a
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: good call with, with Trudeau, with governor Trudeau of our 50,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: 51st state. And, and that's it.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: That was it.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: There wasn't, he didn't ask for anything. He didn't get anything.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: And then he just stopped. So like when April 2nd
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: comes around, do people take his threat seriously? Do they
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: think it's really going to last? Do they really care
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: that much, other foreign leaders? I just can't tell.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the madman theory is that you were
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: pretending to be a madman to keep your opponents on
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: their toes. If you're an actual madman, it doesn't work
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: quite as well because you don't have any defined objectives.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: You don't have a strategy. You're just being an imbecile.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: I also think that just backing off didn't necessarily work,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: at least with regard to the stock market, because it
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: still closed down a couple hundred points again, probably because
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of businesses are now thinking like, how do
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: we plan for the future? How do we set prices?
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: We don't know if there's going to be more tariffs again,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: or if he's really going to go through with it
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: with reciprocal tariffs on April 2nd, like he said in
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: the speech, and unpause the trade war with Mexico and Canada,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: or if he's just going to keep going. And so
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: it's just causing chaos. Chaos and corruption, Dan.
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Chaos and corruption. That's exactly right. I mean, for businesses,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: they want a good economy. They don't want a bad economy.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: What they really don't want is a chaotic, uncertain economy,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: because you can't make any decisions. They really have to
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: have some confidence. Even if the economic outlook is not good,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: they want to have confidence in that outlook 6, 12, 24,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: 36 months in advance to make decisions about whether you're
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: going to open more stores, hire more people, build a factory,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: launch a new product. And if you can't have any
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: sense of what's going to happen because there's a guy
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: in the White House who's just capriciously making decisions left
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: and right for no foreseeable reason, then they're going to
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: hoard cash to try to wait out the uncertainty and
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: the chaos for a better time for investment. And that's
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy that's going to hurt
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: the economy because it's going to mean less economic growth.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: So fairly or unfairly, presidents are usually blamed when a
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: recession- or inflation happens on their watch, even if they
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: inherited the problem. You know, people sometimes give them a
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: little grace period if they've inherited it, but then eventually
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: they get blamed if it persists. But it's not often
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: you can draw such a direct link between a president's
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: actions and an economic downturn. The Trump regime's already trying
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: to avoid the blame for the economic uncertainty we're facing
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: right now. Elon Musk is is saying that the U.S.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: should stop including government spending in GDP calculations. Some Republicans
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: are claiming that we shouldn't count federal workers who lost
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: their jobs in the jobs numbers. What do you think?
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: How big of a problem is this for Republicans? And
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: do you think they'll be able to lie their way
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: out of this one?
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think they're going to lie their way
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: out of this one, right? The one thing that people
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: fully understand is the economy. And for all of Trump's
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: messaging skills, the size of his megaphone, all of that,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: he cannot bend reality to his whims. Maybe for his
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: most ardent fans, but not for the middle of the electorate.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: You're already seeing the softest Trump voters, the new Trump voters,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: the men under 40 who came to him. Navigator research
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: uses a measure of people who voted for Trump but
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: don't strongly approve of him. All of those people are
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: souring on the economy and they're souring on Trump because
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: of what they're seeing. And you're right, this is directly
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: attributable to him. And it is a message that Democrats
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: should latch onto because people are going to see what's happening.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: And we do have to tell a story about why
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: it's happening. And the fact that Trump is chaotic and
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: erratic is a story that is quite believable to people
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: because it fits with what they see.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: To anyone with eyes, ears.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: They know it. And I think you see this lesson
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: in the 2020 election too, which is people will put
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: up with a lot of Trump's chaos because they think
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: there are positives to it in a sclerotic broken system.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: But when that chaos starts impacting their lives, then they
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: turn on him. And we are at the point where
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: it is infecting people's lives.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: And there's obviously concern that they could fuck with the
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: statistics and the numbers around GDP and the jobs numbers.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: The two that I just mentioned, you'd be able to
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: see the GDP and then they're just subtracting government spending,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: which by the way, our old colleague, Jason Furman from
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Obama World, he said that if you stripped out the
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: public sector production out of the Atlanta Fed's forecast, the
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: GDP would be on pace for a 3.8% contraction this quarter,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: which is more than they were. So I don't really
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: know what stripping out the government spending part is going
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: to do that Elon wants there. I don't think it's
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: going to help that much. And you can say, oh, well,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the jobs numbers are actually this because we're not counting
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: federal workers, but everyone's also going to know how many
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: federal workers lost their jobs. And even if you decide
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: to go into the BLS, like Doge decides to go
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: into BLS and the Commerce Department and fuck with the numbers,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: this is like, people are still going to feel that
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: the economy is not doing well, right? Like if you
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: see high prices, if your paycheck isn't going far enough,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: it's not going to matter what kind of headlines you see.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: We just went through this for the last four fucking years.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, where we had strong growth, low unemployment numbers, and
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: high prices. And guess what happened? People weren't happy about
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: the economy. There is a, like Jason's right. I mean,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: the idea of taking government spending out of GDP as
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: a way to make GDP look better is just, you
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: have to be an idiot to think that. That's just
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: not how it works. You're taking things that drive growth
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: out of a growth measure and think it's going to
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: give you more growth is foolish. But I think there
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: is a downstream consequence to even talking about this, which
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: is if this speaks to the business uncertainty, the economic
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: uncertainty that's coming from this administration, is these are the
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: numbers that people make decisions on. And if there are
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: reasons to believe that people are fucking with those numbers,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: it's going to cause even more uncertainty. Because if that
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: number comes in, and it's better than people thought, but
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: they don't trust it because these people have been openly
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: talking about playing with the numbers, then businesses are not
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: going to bank on that number as a reason to
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: be more optimistic and therefore invest more.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: All right, Dan. So the Doge days are not yet over,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: but we're beginning to get some signs that Trump is
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: finally realizing that he may be the Doge who caught
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: the car.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: That's great. Great work.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Look, I'm really proud of that. Really proud. In just
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: the last week, the CDC asked almost 200 employees back
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: after letting them go, including people who work on the
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: 9-11 Survivors Health Program. The FDA is trying to reinstate
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: staff involved in checking medical device and food safety. The
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: General Services Administration, GSA, suddenly pulled over 400 listed government
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: properties off the real estate market. And NBC reported that
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Doge is reversing course on axing several hundred veterans' health
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: care contracts after a, quote, revolt by frontline VA employees,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: although even more of the contracts remain on the chopping block,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: some of which are already paid for. On top of
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: all that, Doge also keeps losing in court. A federal
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: civil service board ordered the Department of Agriculture to temporarily
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: rehire over 5,000 employees. A court told the Office of
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Personnel Management, It could not directly fire probationary staff at
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: other agencies. And here's the biggie. The Supreme Court narrowly
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: rejected the Trump administration's attempt to withhold billions of dollars
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: in payments that the government owes USAID contractors for foreign aid.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Chief Justice John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett sided with
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: the court's liberals in the 5-4 decision, which left it
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: to the lower court to, quote, clarify what obligations the
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: government must fulfill. since the original deadline for payment has passed.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: And what I can only assume is a response to
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: all of this chaos and dipshittery. Trump held a cabinet
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: plus Elon meeting on Thursday, where he appeared to put
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: the doge back on the leash.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: No, it's great stuff. I just got to do something
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: to amuse myself.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: It's great stuff.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Politico reports that the president said in the room that
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Elon is, quote, Empowered to make recommendations to the departments,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: but not to issue unilateral decisions on staffing and policy.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Those decisions will be up to the agencies themselves. Following
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: that report, Trump wrote a long post on Truth Social
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: saying that they'll now be using, quote, the scalpel rather
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: than the hatchet. And when he was asked by reporters
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: about all this afterwards, here's how he described the new policy.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: I want the cabinet members to keep good people. I
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: don't want to see a big cut where a lot
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: of good people are cut. So I had a meeting,
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: and I said, I want the cabinet members to go first,
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: keep all the people you want, everybody that you need.
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: Elon and the group are going to be watching them,
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: and if they can cut, it's better. And if they
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: don't cut, then Elon will do the cutting.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, then. I like that this whole thing is framed
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: as like, Oh, yeah, like, everything's great. This is awesome.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: The cuts are going wonderful. Elon's doing great. Everyone loves
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: each other. It's a golden age. There's just, like, a
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: little small change we're making, which is, like, we're not
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: going to fire all these people anymore, and you can
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: keep the people that you want. And, yeah, by the way,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: maybe we fucked up a lot.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: But if you don't fire them, Elon will fire them.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, because he's got to keep going back and forth.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: What do you make of all this? You think this
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: is pressure? What do you think this is?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I want to know when the deep state got to Trump.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: You know what he's worried about? He's worried about binder
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: two of the Epstein files. He doesn't know it. Pam Bondi, apparently,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know if we talked about this in the pod,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: but apparently there's a report that Pam Bondi, she presented
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: that binder at the White House with the Epstein files,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: but that was all publicly available anyway, as a quote
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: unquote surprise. You always want your chief law enforcement officer
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: to be the one surprising you.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: At the White House. At the White House.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Those are always good surprises from the H.E. But yeah, no,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: so the deep state got to Trump, I guess.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, let's see what really happens here. Like, Elon
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: is not someone who takes no for an answer. He...
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Let's just see what actually... Like, if there is an
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: actual change or if this is just sort of window dressing.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I wonder if some of these closed-door meetings they've been
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: having with Republicans, like some of the Republicans who are
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: obviously too afraid to say anything publicly, or at least
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: most of them are, are privately sort of pressuring the
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: White House and Elon. I mean, I guess Elon met
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: with the senators and gave them all his cell phone number.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I saw that Susan Collins has been texting him, which
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: is cool.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Do you think there's any emojis? Who's using emojis first?
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Probably Elon, right?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: He's all memes. He's a meme lord.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: I also think the cabinet has been blowing up Trump
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: and Susie Wiles because it's hard to run a department
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: when you have a bunch of unaccountable people running through
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: it just cutting things and like seizing your payment systems
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: and putting your building up for sale. It's like they're
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: trying to sell the headquarters of these departments. Like, where
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: are the people going to work? It's like, this is
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: one thing I've been struck by. Trump's order that everyone
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: has to go back to the office and also we're
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: going to sell the office. Like, what's going to happen?
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the Social Security Administration, but
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: there's like, they're closing offices left and right and some
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: workers are like working in closets now and sitting on
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the floor because there's no space to work. Apparently they
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: put This was on Bloomberg TV. They put a building
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: up for sale in Virginia and by doing so accidentally
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: revealed a CIA black site.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: So many questions about this. So many questions. How did
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: we know they accidentally revealed a CIA black site? Why
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: is there a CIA black site in Northern Virginia?
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I would say I texted that on our group chat
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: with Ben and Tommy and no one responded. No response
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: from Ben and Tommy on that one. There were a
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: couple people that made a great joke on Twitter about this,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: which is that they just assumed it was a DEI initiative.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Okay. I guess that's a great joke.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: It's a great joke. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
• 18:41
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• 18:45
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• 18:52
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• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Elon's response to all this seems as though he's blaming
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: the agencies for the cuts they're making. In a closed-door
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: gathering of congressional Republicans, Elon reportedly said that while he, quote,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Can't bat a thousand all the time. It's the agency
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: heads who are responsible for the job cuts, and sometimes
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: they're doing it wrong. Okay. Not so, says Trump's handpicked
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: acting head of the Social Security Administration, who apparently got
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: the job as a reward for sharing sensitive information with Doge.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: That's how you move on up in the world in
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: the Trump regime. According to the Washington Post, Leland Dudek,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: that's the new social, the temporary Leland, Social Security administrator,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: privately told senior staff and advocates for the elderly and
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: disabled in a meeting that, quote, things are currently operating
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: in a way I have never seen in government before. That, quote,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Doge people are learning and they will make mistakes. And, quote,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: I am receiving decisions that are made without my input.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: This is the this is the Trump guy.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: This is the guy they got from middle management who's
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: been there for years who decided to like, you know,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: hand secret information. So they're like, this is our loyalist
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: on the inside. And he's like, I don't fucking know
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: what's happening. It doesn't seem great. Other employees at the
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Social Security Administration tell the Post that some of the
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: staff cuts, spending cuts, and office closures are already leading
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: to long delays in people getting their retirement and disability
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: claims processed. Thought Trump was going to protect Social Security
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: benefits and make government more efficient. What's going on?
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: It doesn't seem that way. I would say that. I mean,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: you are just playing with absolute political fire to be
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: in a situation where people may not get their social
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: security benefits on time, where their disability claims are not
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: being processed, where they can't get anyone on the phone.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: This is where the rubber hits the road, right? You
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: see the same thing with the VA. People aren't getting
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: veterans benefits. Medicaid checks aren't coming out. Hospitals are not
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: getting paid for services rendered. This is very real stuff,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: and this is where it affects people's lives, and the
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: politics of it are devastating.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, again, it's supposed to be the Department of
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Government Efficiency, right? The whole idea is if this is
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: a success, then they save taxpayers money and they make
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: government work better for less money. But they are so
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: far just making it work poorly. They are firing a
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: bunch of people who they shouldn't be firing. They're already
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: having to like hire them back. They're people who are
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: counting on benefits and services aren't getting them. And this
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: is why I think that Trump, you know, the whole
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Elon and Doge thing sort of reigning them in a
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: little bit. It does feel like if you just have
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: a bunch of stories about how everything's broken and people
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: are pissed and things aren't working as they should. I
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: don't know what good headlines you get from that.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: This is probably where there is some divide between Trump
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: and the Project 2025 architects, including people like Elon Musk,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: which is Trump, he doesn't care about any of this shit.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: He wants to root out people who are not on
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: his side. He wants to get rid of the quote-unquote
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: deep state, at least until they got to him earlier
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: this morning. And so he's very on board with, let's
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: go through the FBI. Let's get out all the people
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: who work for Jack Smith. Let's go through the CIA
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: and get all the people who leaked about me and
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: my perfect phone call or about Putin or whatever else.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: What the other people want to do is they just
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: want to break government. They just want to break it
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: because they don't believe in it. And it's going to
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: be really, really, really hard to fix. How are you
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: going to hire more people? Just imagine– I was thinking
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: about this last night. Imagine you're the next Democratic president
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: three years from now and you come in. And you
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: want to fix all the things that Trump broke. How
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: are you going to get all of that done? How
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: are you going to hire a bunch of people? How
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: are you going to reopen offices? It will not be
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: a turnkey. Usually, when you switch administrations, there is a
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: sort of a turnkey element of it. You get rid
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: of all the old executive orders. You put new people in.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: You put new executive orders in. And the wheels of
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: government can start moving in your ideological direction here. That
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: is not going to be available to the next president
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: because the wheels of government are being smashed by a
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: bunch of people who hate government.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also going to be hard to recruit people
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: to work in government after the way that thousands and
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: thousands of people have already been treated in this.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: People go into government for many reasons. One is public service.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Many of them, particularly like the scientists, the doctors, they
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: could make a lot more money doing something else, working elsewhere.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: But they choose this out of public service, but also
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: because a government job is an incredibly stable, up until now,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: had been an incredibly stable job with very good benefits.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: You had job security. And now that does not exist anymore.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: And so in a world where we're just like flipping
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: back and forth between a Democrat and a MAGA Republican
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: every four years, you're not going to go back into
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: government for a long-term career because you know four years
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: from now, Donald Trump Jr. could be there, or J.D. Vance,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: or whoever else, and you could lose your job all
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: over again.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's exactly what– and I think that's their intention,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: at least some of them. How much do you think
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: this has to do with the legal challenges that they've
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: been facing? Because if– If it's Elon and Doge doing
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: all the damage, then as we're seeing in some of
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: these legal cases, it's not going well for them. But
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: if it's an agency head deciding, hey, we're just going
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: to reduce the workforce of my agency, that seems like
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: it's a lot more legally viable.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that probably is part of it. It's hard to
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: imagine that Trump's giving public comments based on the advice
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: of a lawyer to try to have a better legal strategy.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: That seems somewhat unlikely and out of character.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Unless Susie Wiles is really effective.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Have you even heard Susie Wiles' name since the election
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: was over?
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: No, but maybe that's how she wants it. That's what
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: they said about her in the campaign.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not really the same disciplined operation as the campaign.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, technically, you're in a more legally precarious position if
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Doge is doing it. That's not always true. These federal
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: workers do have some protections. You do still need cause
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: and reasons to do it.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: So it's not... Maybe they would slightly improve their chances
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: by switching it. But I think this is more about
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: the cabinet secretaries being like, we just took these jobs.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: We have no control. Throw these nuts running through our
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: department doing everything. And they complained to Trump. And they're
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: the last person in Trump's ear before this meeting. So
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: he made these comments. He may feel differently after talking
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: to Elon on the phone tonight. Who knows?
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: That's true. We should also note in the Department of
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Bad Things that haven't happened yet, but are probably about to,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal reported that Trump was planning to
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: sign an executive order as soon as Thursday that would
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: abolish the Department of Education, which prompted Press Secretary Caroline
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Leavitt to post on X, more fake news, President Trump
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: is not signing an executive order on the Department of
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Education today. You know, who knows? This is a longstanding
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: campaign promise, so it would not be unexpected if it happens.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Polar Coaster listeners will remember that this idea is not
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: exactly popular. Honestly, even if you don't listen to Polar Coaster,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: which you should, You probably, if you've paid attention to politics,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: you probably would guess that eliminating the Department of Education
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: is unpopular. But would you care to elaborate on how
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: unpopular this is?
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is one. And when you test in several polls,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: if you test Trump's ideas or proposals or executive actions
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: he's taken, the most unpopular is pardoning January 6th rioters. Yeah.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Right around that same neighborhood, abolishing the Department of Education.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: This is a Republican idea that has been going back decades.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: It is so unpopular that it sunk the Republican House
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: majority in the 90s. It was so unpopular in the
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: 96 presidential election that by the time we got to
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: the year 2000, Republicans were running on expanding the Department
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: of Education. That was the entire no child left behind
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: policy of George W. Bush. It is a truly... Those
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: are the politics. The politics are terrible. It's an insane
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: thing to lean into. Also, not something you can do
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: with executive order.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Right. That's what I don't understand. It's just.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: It's got to take an act of Congress.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, we thought that about a lot of things.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: And lo and behold, it's the folks at USAID who
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: may have something to say about it. Right.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: But so far, you know.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: The courts have been stepping in.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I don't know how that's going to work.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: And look, I think it's something like 90% of education
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: funding is state and local. But, you know, the Department
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: of Education does provide a lot of funding when it
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: comes to student loans, federal financial assistance for college, also
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Title I. which helps students with disabilities in school. And
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: so there's a lot of that funding that goes to
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: public schools. So, you know, you're really playing with fire
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: if you're going to start. And, like, I think I've
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: heard them say, well, if we shut it down, then
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: the funding that goes to Title I and stuff like that,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: that'll just get devolved to the states. But, like, I
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: don't really think there's a plan here.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: No.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: There's a good plan. One other sign of the times
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: here with the deadline for funding the government coming up,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: pardon me, with the shutdown looming, We like to say
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: shutdown looming. Congressional Republicans are now leaning against including any
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: of Doge's spending cuts in the continuing resolution, opting instead
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: for a so-called clean CR, which would keep the government
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: open through September 30th at current levels of spending. Chuck
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Schumer apparently supports this as well because it would get
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: enough Democratic support to avoid a shutdown. I feel like
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: we heard this from some of the senators who joined
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: our live stream before the State of the Union. I've
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: even seen an address for joy nope nope.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I just had to play the head to play the
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: role of love.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: And i've even seen it from some more progressive democratic
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: politicians it seems like just no one wants a shutdown
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: partly because what we have been saying which is like
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: what do you what do you ask for and what
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: can you expect to win from a shutdown But what
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The wind is coming out of the sails on
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: this very quickly. And people, Democratic activists, are going to
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: be super pissed about this. And I understand that reaction
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: for sure. This is a– as we talked about with
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Senator Schiff, this is a singular point of leverage we have.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: And to let it pass by seems– you can understand
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: why people would be mad about that. Now, the question–
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: and I have been very torn about this question. You
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: and I have kind of gone back and forth over
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: the course of the podcast on this.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: In recent weeks. I think we've each taken both sides
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: of it. Yep.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: And the question that you would have for people on
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: the pro-shutdown side, and ultimately, we're not really shutting it down.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: It's really going to be, can the Republicans get 218
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: votes to pass? Then the ball will be in the
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Senate's court, but they have to do that first. And
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I imagine that no Democrat is going to vote for
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: that continuing resolution in the House. I hope so. And
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: so just make the Republicans get the number on their
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: own and see if they can fall under their own weight.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: But if you're on the.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: I don't even want to say pro-shutdown side, but if
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: you're on the side who wants the fight here, my
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: question for you would be, what would be your public
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: rationale for why you're opposing a clean, year-long continuing of
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: funding for the government at levels agreed to when President
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Biden was president? And what do you think you could
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: get out of that fight that would be something more
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: than just, that would be a substantive victory as opposed
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: to just waving the white flag after some period of time?
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Right. And probably they would say, okay, well, we're going
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: to We're trying to shut down, you know, Elon Musk's
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: sort of illegal destruction of government. And then you say, OK, well,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: the White House is not going to agree to that. Also,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: you know, I think who knows, maybe that's another reason
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: as they're approaching the shutdown, why Trump tried to say
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: that they're putting some guardrails around Doge and it's going
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: to be agencies like you do need you need a
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: clear goal and you need to believe that with enough pressure,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Republicans will agree to that goal. And then you've got
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: to think that a government that is completely shut down
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: will put pressure on Donald Trump and Republicans because they
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: won't want that. But everything they've done over the last
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: two months suggests that they very much like breaking government.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: And so it's, you know, and we, you know, when
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: government is shut down, like people are still getting their
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: social security benefits and stuff like that. So all the
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: like most, you know, it's, it's look, it's not a
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: great thing when government shuts down and it's not usually
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: politically very popular. But right now, all of the bad
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: that is coming from Trump and Elon destroying the government
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: is like, they're getting all the blame for it. And
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Democrats are getting none of the blame. And if we're
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: shutting it down, then people say, okay, great. It's a fight.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: What are we fighting for?
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: The test here is, can Mike Johnson get a clean
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: continuing resolution out of the House? And if not, if
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: you were to like, if they were to add in
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: what they call anomalies, which are specific provisions, specific cuts
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: or policy changes within the CR that implemented the Doge cuts,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: the Democrats would have to fight that. You cannot vote
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: to implement the Doge cuts. But absent that, I think
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: the question is much more challenging. And just the one
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: piece of advice I have for Democrats is decide what
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: you're going to do now and do not raise expectations
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: of something different.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: And yeah, and if you do decide that you're going
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: to have the fight, you got to stick with the fight.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Because if you do, if you pull a a Trump
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: trade war thing and you shut the government. Cause we've
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: been there in 2018. Uh, and you shut the government,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: that exact thing. Yeah. And you shut the government down
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: for a week and then you're like, uh, okay, they're
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: not doing anything. They don't care. Now what do we do?
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: All right, we're going to open the government again. It's just,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: that's the worst of all worlds. It doesn't mean the
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Republicans are walking away from the Doge budget cuts though.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Mike Johnson says they'll figure out a way to codify
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: those in fiscal year 2026.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: So not till fall.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, though, Congress has to move forward with the budget
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: reconciliation process. This is the big, beautiful bill, whatever you
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: want to call it, Trump's economic plan. As a reminder,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: the House has passed their budget resolution, and the Senate
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: will take it up later this month. And while they
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: can do all this without any Democratic support, they need
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: most Republicans, almost all Republicans, and so there will be
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: pressure on vulnerable Republicans, and it might be a bit
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: higher now that the Congressional Budget Office— has confirmed that
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: the savings targets in the bill, we've all assumed this,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: but now you've got it from the CBO, nonpartisan scorekeeper
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: of Congress, that the targets that they have in the
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: House bill will not be possible without cuts to Medicaid, Medicare,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: or the Children's Health Insurance Program. How do you see
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: all this playing out? Do you think the Senate's just
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: going to look at what the House did and be like, yeah,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: that's too much. We're going to go with our own thing?
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: No, the Senate's obviously not going along with what the
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: House does. They have different priorities. They feel differently about
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: the Medicaid cuts. They think a lot of the trillion
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: dollars in cuts is ridiculous. There's several senators have said that,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: that that's a true impossibility. And so like, how does
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: this end, I guess, is the question. One way, and
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I've been thinking about this, because the budget resolution itself
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: is not a legally binding document. It's a pretty fake thing.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: And you can amend it. You can pass a superseding
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: one that just, all it is, is permission to pass
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: something without a filibuster in the Senate. Like that's what
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: it is. And so it can say almost anything. And
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: they are not bound by this version of it. The
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: easiest things Republicans could do, like they have to pass something.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: If they don't pass anything, then the debt ceiling will expire.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: And nearly every American will get a tax increase at
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: the end of the year. And so the position of
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: greatest fallback or maybe of least resistance is just a
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: short term, short three or four year extension of the
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Trump tax cuts as is. which is what happened to
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: the Bush tax cuts in 2010, I believe, 2010. And
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: so you could see that just you, everyone lives to
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: fight another day. And the Republicans could probably do that
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: relatively easily if they, if they, with Trump's, with Trump's help.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: And they come up with some, you know, they make
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: these cuts sound like a big deal, but they're really
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: not mathematically that you like include a bunch of doge
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: cuts and you include some like modest cuts here and there.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: on spending, but you don't touch anything big and you
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: get your border, your extra immigration border enforcement funding that
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: they all are going to want. And then you call
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: it a day. That does seem like- And some energy stuff.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And some energy stuff. Yeah. You drill, baby, drill. That
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: does seem like the most, the path of least resistance
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: for them.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of resistance on that path though.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I was going to say, provided that all the
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: crazies in the House and some in the Senate, like
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: the craziest Republicans, the hardliners, agree to that because they
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: want much, much deeper cuts.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Which is the immigration is the bait to get them
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: to go along.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: For the crazies. Because they care about cutting the government,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: but they care a lot about some pretty nasty immigration policy.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And at some point you say, this is the
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: only train leaving the station.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: No.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Pods of America is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. If
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: you're doing what you love to do, there's nothing better
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: than being surrounded by people who love it as much
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• 38:13
  Speaker 1: slash crooked. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash crooked. ZipRecruiter is the
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: smartest way to hire. So let's talk about Democrats.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Love talking about Democrats.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: What they're doing so far this week is mostly voting
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: against the Republican-led censure of Congressman Al Green for heckling
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Trump during the joint address. Ten Democrats joined every Republican
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: in passing the resolution, which a censure is basically just
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: a public scolding. When a member is censured, they then
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: have to present themselves in the well of the House,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: which is the front of the chamber, while the resolution
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: is read out loud. And those words just sting when
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: they hear them. But Al Green, when he was censured,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: appeared with a gaggle of other Democrats. who then sang
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: We Shall Overcome while Mike Johnson banged the gavel and
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: eventually sent the House into recess. Dan, which kind of
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Democrat are you? Are you the kind who votes to
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: censure a member of your own caucus for protesting cuts
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: to Medicaid during the State of the Union, or whatever
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: the fuck it's called? Or are you the kind who
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: protests the kind who vote to censure the member? Or
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: is there a third option?
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: God, I fucking hope there's a third option.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: It's all so stupid.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: The whole thing is so dumb. Every part of it.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Every part of it?
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Like we can, you know, we talked about this in
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: the pod we did right after the quote unquote State
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: of the Union. And I find it really hard to
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: care about what Al Green did. Is it going to
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: win us an election?
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: No.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Is it going to lose us an election? No. Is
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: it a big victory for Trump?
• 39:58
  Speaker 5: No.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Is anyone going to remember this some years down the road?
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: No.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: And so I don't really understand why 10 Democrats felt
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: the need to vote for this. They're going to somehow
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: avoid getting anti-Al Green ads in 14 months? What do
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: they think is going to happen?
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Jim Hines from Connecticut was one of the members who
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: voted for the censure. I saw a statement from him
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: that he was like, you know, 10 years ago, no,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: not 10 years ago, much longer. I don't know how
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: many years ago when Joe Wilson, Congress Republican Congressman Joe
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Wilson said, yelled, you lie to Barack Obama during not
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: a state of the union.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: No, that was a State of the Union. No, it
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: was not. It was not even a fake State of
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: the Union. It was just a straight-up joint address 15
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: years ago.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: This is my stickler thing for everyone. They always say
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: State of the Union. No, it was an address to
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: a joint session of Congress about the health care bill,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: about the Affordable Care Act, and it was in Labor
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Day 2009. Anyway, and so he was like, I voted
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: for that, and so I want to be consistent. Now,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: that wasn't a censure. That was a resolution of disapproval,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: which also is.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Like, The world has changed, Jim Hines. The world has changed.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: So, I don't know. I think it's so... I think
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: the whole thing is so stupid. And also, it's like...
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: My view on this is, like, if you're Al Green
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: and you feel strongly about this and you want to
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: protest during the speech, then you know that that could
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: come with censure. It's a Republican-controlled house. And as far
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: as we can tell, Al Green, he said, okay, fine.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Censure me. I don't give a shit. Like, I did it.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: I'm proud I did it.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: And.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Was I trying to like win an election?
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: No.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Was I trying to call attention to Medicaid cuts? Yes.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Did that, is that what he did? I think from
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: the coverage, probably not, right? Because that's not what the
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: coverage is about. If you're a casual observer of politics,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: you'd be like, oh yeah, there was a disturbance at
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: the beginning of the speech. They kicked some guy out.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Then everyone got mad that some Democrats weren't standing up
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: and clapping for the kid with cancer and blah, blah, blah.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: If it, and, and, That's actually being generous because I
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: think most people who are casual news observer probably don't
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: know any of this.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: So did it achieve it?
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: No.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: But like, you know, he wanted to do it. And
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: if you want to protest, you protest. My thing is,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: if you want to protest and you want to commit,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you know, civil disobedience and that's a stretch to say
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: this is civil disobedience because it's not breaking any law.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: It's just breaking the rules of the House. Then you,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: you know, then you accept the consequences of that. And
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: that's what civil disobedience is. Then for Democrats to be like, oh,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: I got to vote to censure him. It's like, you know,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: censure is for like, if you look through history, you know,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: like way back when I think they've censured some people
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: for like inappropriate language on the House floor in like
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: the early 1900s. Usually it's like you committed fraud, you
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: committed bribery. I think Paul Gosar got censured for trying
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: to incite violence against other members or something like that.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: You know, just interrupting the president during the State of
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: the Union.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: It's all so fucking.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Stupid to me. It's what Kevin McCarthy wanted to do
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: to Trump for January 6th. As an example.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: This is why, and I'm glad you brought up January 6th,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: because this is when I get mad thinking about the
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: whole thing, because it was like, the decorum, why did
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: he do this? And he stood up and, why did
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Democrats do this? And I was like, what are we
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: all talking about? We were all alive in January of 2021.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: When a bunch of fucking rioters went into the Capitol
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: trying to kill a bunch of members of Congress because
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: the current president of the United States sent them there.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, their ringleader was speaking at the time. That's what
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: he interrupted. The guy who incited the riot and the
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: people who had tried to kill it. Like, just the
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: only thing I'd say about this is. No one is
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: better at turning a five-minute moment into a five-day story
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: than Democrats.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I know. I know.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: We had everyone. Everyone's like, oh, it happened. What is
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: my reaction to it? Like, I'm uncomfortable with it. And
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: that's an okay thing to be is to be uncomfortable
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: with it. But then their first reaction is to dial
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: up someone from Politico and Axios and complain about it.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: And then we're going to have the censor vote. And
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: so instead of making what I think would be a
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: fair-minded political argument that The economy is teetering. Prices are up.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: The world's in chaos. And what is the House doing?
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: They're spending their time censoring the guy with the cane.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: What are we doing? Ten of us have to vote
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: for it. So now everyone's going to be mad at
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: the ten people. There's going to be a whole other
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: set of stories.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Well, it's primary the ten people. And what the fuck
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: are Democrats doing? I see some people, we need to
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: start a third party. But it's like, everyone just calm
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: the fuck down. Like, come on. This is not the
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: most effective use of our time or our energy.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: None of it.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: None of it.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: On any side of this.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: And I would definitely not have been one of those 10.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: Because I think that's a dumb vote. But, like, again,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: I just think the whole thing is crazy. Our friends
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: at Blueprint, apropos of a great segue, actually, our friends
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: at Blueprint released a new poll on Thursday morning that
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: found that regular Americans aren't exactly wowed by Democrats' performance
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: in the new Trump term.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: 40% of respondents chose the statement, the Democratic Party doesn't
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: have any strategy at all for responding to Trump, as
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: opposed to only 24% who think there is a strategy,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: but it isn't working, and a meager 10% who think
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: there is a strategy that is working well. Who the
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: hell are those people? I want to meet the 10%
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: who think there's a strategy and that it's working well,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: and I would like to know what the strategy is.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: I think those people think Democrats are sleeper cells, like
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Trump double agents. If you think the strategy has helped Trump,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: you may think it's working.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Any takeaways from the poll?
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think I needed a poll to tell me
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: that people weren't happy with the Democratic Party. I did
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: not need that.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I knew that.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Any conversation with any person who cares about politics will
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: tell you that. Any moment on social media will tell
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: you that. There are some useful things in the poll
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: beyond that. They poll test Trump's– a lot of his
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: actions and policies. They– even more valuable– They tested a
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: bunch of messages that would be most effective in drawing
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: contrast with Trump. The content of those will not surprise you.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Number one, protecting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. Number two is
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: about the economic chaos we just talked about. Number three
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: is about veterans' benefits and Medicaid. It's like we know
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: what those messages are, but it's useful to reinforce that
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: even with all of the insanity and everything that's going on,
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: the most persuasive things are still the most persuasive things
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: we thought they should– we imagine they would be.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: So we can be constructive? What should Democrats be doing?
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: If they're not protesting Donald Trump in the speech or singing,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: we shall overcome or voting to censure their own members,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: anything else?
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: I just want to stipulate, there are no easy answers here.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: There is no silver bullet. There is nothing that some
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Democrat or some group of Democrats can do that's going
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: to stop Elon Musk. And expectations are completely out of whack.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: And I understand people are scared and frustrated and they're
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: looking to their party to offer a solution. We just
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: don't have the power. Democrats don't have the power to
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: actually stop them. So you hear a lot of people
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: saying like, where's the message? Why don't we have a message?
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: And the message could be better. It could be better delivered.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: It could be delivered more effectively, whatever else. But even
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: if we had the most perfect message, we're not solving
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: the problem that most people want solved. And we do
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: have to play at least some version of the long
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: game here, which is we have one moment, doesn't come
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: for about a year and a half, But when that
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: moment comes, we have a chance to actually make a
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: huge difference in Trump's ability to destroy this country. And
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: that's to win back the House and maybe the Senate.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: And the process between now and then is about making
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Trump more unpopular and informing the country about what he
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: is doing. And I think the real dilemma here is,
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: and we can talk about this for hours, and we
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: are on a very tight 90-minute timeframe, as people will
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: find out very shortly, is that we know what the
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: most persuasive things to say are. We just don't currently
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: know how to make people hear those things. And that
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: there is a real gap between the things that persuade
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: people and the things that generate the engagement and drive
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: the conversation sufficient people to hear it. And the best
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: advice that I have is we all have to be loud.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: And so we can talk at all about what congressional
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Democrats can do. I'm more interested in what all of
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: us can do, what everyone listening can do, which is
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: go to town halls, go to protests, call your member
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: of Congress, Talk to all your family and friends. Use
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: those messages I just talked about. Share the news. Talk
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: about the chaos. Point out the economics. Just be out there.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Because we all have agency here. And if we're just
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: waiting around for Hakeem Jeffries or Nancy Pelosi or Chuck
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Schumer or Chris Murphy or someone to save the day,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: they can't do that for us. We're going to have
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: to do it ourselves. And it's not going to happen overnight.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: But over the course of time, between now and November 2026,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: we can put ourselves in a position to win the House,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: win the Senate, and really dramatically curtail Trump's ability to
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: damage this country.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: I agree with all that. And one other idea that
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of people have been floating, and I think
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: some Democratic members have said they want to do this,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: but under-covered story this week was the head of the NRCC,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: whose job it is to elect a Republican House, to
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: re-elect a Republican House in two years, basically told all
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: of their members no. more town halls. No more town
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: halls because you don't want people showing up at the
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: town halls to protest you. And so now all these
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: House Republicans are not going to have town halls probably
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: next time they're all on recess. And I think that
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Democratic politicians, Democratic members, and all of us, like you
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: just said, should be going to those districts and where
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: House Republicans or Senate Republicans who are going to be
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: in competitive races in 2026 aren't holding town halls and
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: hold our own town halls or go to their offices
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: and hold protests outside their offices or hold town halls
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: outside their offices or, you know, Democratic members, House members
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: can go to the Republican House members' districts that are
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: maybe close to them in their states or the next
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: states and say, I'm going to go. And you know what?
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: And Republicans can show up to maybe Republican, you know,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: we can make it, you publicize it. And if Republican
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: voters show up and want to argue with you, that's
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: great too. Like that's going to get people's attention. Like,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: you know, like have some, have some verbal exchanges with,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: with people who don't agree with you. Maybe even the
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: members themselves, if you can find them again, like, I
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: just think that like, like you said, getting people to
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: hear it is going to be the tough part. You
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: have to get people's attention. And I do think there's
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: a huge vulnerability now where there's going to be some, some,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: bad news that's frustrating people from Trump and Elon. But
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: like in 2026, the people that we're going to have
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: to get people to vote against are Republican politicians. And
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: so far, they're doing a great job just kind of hiding.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: And now they want to hide more. And they probably
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: want Trump and Elon to take all the heat. And
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: it's our job, at least from now until 2026, to
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: make sure that those people are famous. Yeah.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: Ro Khanna and Tim Walls have said they're going to
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: go to districts. Yes.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Those are the people I was thinking of. I knew
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: it was two people.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: There's been a lot of reporting about what some of
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: the people who are presumed to want to run for
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: president like Gavin Newsom, Josh Shapiro, Gretchen Whitmer, and Wes Moore,
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: others might be doing. This is a great use of
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: their time is to go do it. The one thing
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: I would add in there is it doesn't have to
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: be a competitive district. House elections rise and fall in
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: the national political environment. So if you don't happen to
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: be near one of those California or New York districts
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: that are competitive, do it in any district. The walled
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: garden of local news and politics doesn't exist anymore. And
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: so just if there is a thousand stories about angry
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: town halls from all over across the country, that is
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: going to affect the people in vulnerable districts too.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, that is a point well taken. Okay, when we
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: come back from the break, you're going to hear my
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: conversation with Sarah Longwell. Two quick things before we do that.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: And you know what? It's a Dan doubleheader. New Polar
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Coaster is out now. What did you and Caroline talk
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: about this week?
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Well, as I like to say, Pod Save America is
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: for the nerds. Polar Coaster is for the super nerds.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: So we went deep into the question of why Donald
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: Trump is becoming less popular. Why his approval ratings are down,
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: why people are souring on his economy. We also got
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: into some Bravo talk. People may be into that, but
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: mostly we were.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Deep in the crosshairs. I hear that made Elijah nervous,
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: the Bravo talk. He did.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: He made Caroline record a topper to tell people that
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Bravo talk was coming, like a trigger warning for Bravo talk.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: Bravo talk is coming. Dan and Caroline are going to
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: talk about the Paige-Craig breakup. Be prepared.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: That's good. Well, if you want to hear about that
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: or polling analysis, check out Polar Coaster. You can get
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: access to Polar Coaster and other exclusive subscriber series at cricket.com
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: slash friends. Dan, I understand we've got a deal for Messagebox, too.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: God, that is such a good transition. Thank you so
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: much for bringing that up. I appreciate it. Yes, we
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: do have a deal for Pod Save America listeners and
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: really only Pod Save America listeners for at least the
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: first 100 days of the Trump administration, if we make
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: it that far. This month on MessageBox, one of the
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: things I'm very focused on is what I think what
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: we just talked about, which is the most important thing
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Democrats can do is make Donald Trump less popular. So
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: I have a series of posts that go into strategies, tactics,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: messages about what elected Democrats, the DNC, whatever else can do,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: but mainly what all of us can do, the right
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: things we can say in our conversations with our friends
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: and family about Donald Trump that could drive down his
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: approval numbers. And so if that is of interest to you,
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: I would refer you to the world's most cringeworthy website, cricket.com
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: slash YesWeDan. If you go there, you can sign up
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: for MessageBox, and you will get your first month free.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: This special offer will be around for either for a
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: while or until my dignity takes over, and I can't
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: take it anymore. We have to bring down the website.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: YesWeDan is just my favorite thing. I love it. Every morning,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: I go to get a cup.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: I have a mug with YesWeDan. I go into our
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: cabinet to get a coffee mug and I see that
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: mug and I just wonder where, how did we get here?
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: How did you get here? That's a real question. America.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Really, how did America get here?
• 54:29
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  Speaker 1: com slash crooked. Sarah Longwell, welcome back to Pod Save America.
• 55:52
  Speaker 5: Hey, thanks for having me.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: I feel, I can't, have we talked since the election?
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: I listen to you every week, so this is what
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: people do to me sometimes. I'm like, I listen to
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: you every week, so I feel it.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, have we talked?
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: I guess you talked to Pfeiffer. Right after the election. Yeah.
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: And so did JVL. So it's hard to know because
• 56:08
  Speaker 5: I also listen to you guys, especially when we're doing crossovers.
• 56:11
  Speaker 5: And so we have both a parasocial and a real
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: social relationship.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true. What did you think of the
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: speech last night?
• 56:19
  Speaker 5: You know, I was annoyed by the speech for the
• 56:25
  Speaker 5: positives in it because I think that Trump did a
• 56:28
  Speaker 5: pretty effective job on several fronts. Number one, was creating
• 56:34
  Speaker 5: heartwarming moments with, and this is, I mean, on right-wing
• 56:39
  Speaker 5: Twitter right now, the big takeaway is that Democrats did
• 56:44
  Speaker 5: not clap for the young boy with brain cancer and
• 56:48
  Speaker 5: that they are ghouls. So I actually didn't catch that
• 56:51
  Speaker 5: if they didn't.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because the cameras were just on the boys, so
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: I didn't see the crowd.
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think that it is possible that what
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: the reaction was was a frustration of you are sort of...
• 57:03
  Speaker 5: putting the camera on this young guy and it was
• 57:05
  Speaker 5: a sweet moment, right? His dream was to be a
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: secret service. They made him a secret service thing. But
• 57:11
  Speaker 5: I think that my guess is Democrats were sitting there
• 57:13
  Speaker 5: being like, this guy is cutting pediatric cancer research right
• 57:17
  Speaker 5: now as we speak. And like, if I had to
• 57:20
  Speaker 5: get in their brains, it would be things like that.
• 57:22
  Speaker 5: But anyway, I thought, I also thought the part where
• 57:24
  Speaker 5: he went through the USAID stuff and like cracked jokes
• 57:27
  Speaker 5: about it and got laugh lines out of it. Like
• 57:29
  Speaker 5: that right now, um, I've got Tommy on the show
• 57:33
  Speaker 5: on Saturday and we're talking about foreign policy. And one
• 57:35
  Speaker 5: of the things that I think Trump has done, especially
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: on the right, is to create a constant sense of scarcity.
• 57:42
  Speaker 5: And when people have a sense of scarcity, they are
• 57:45
  Speaker 5: constantly doing the math of, oh, money goes to Ukraine.
• 57:48
  Speaker 5: It's not going to Americans. Money's going to this weird
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: country I've never heard of. When Trump does this thing
• 57:53
  Speaker 5: where he's like, pronouncing countries' names as though, are these
• 57:57
  Speaker 5: places even real?
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: Lesotho?
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: No one has ever heard of that.
• 58:02
  Speaker 5: Normally, the leader of the free world might not be
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: keen to admit that they don't know where these different
• 58:07
  Speaker 5: places are on the map, but Trump is happy to
• 58:09
  Speaker 5: do it. And frankly, that lands, right? Because people also
• 58:12
  Speaker 5: don't know where these are. And so while it was
• 58:14
  Speaker 5: filled with lies and the smug faces of Mike Johnson
• 58:18
  Speaker 5: and J.D. Vance behind him sort of fake laughing at
• 58:21
  Speaker 5: everything he said. And so it was, and it was
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: too long and had all these problems. It did the
• 58:27
  Speaker 5: job for the audience that Trump is trying to reach.
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: And I just, the fact though, that he, this is
• 58:33
  Speaker 5: the one thing, and I read Pfeiffer's message box this
• 58:36
  Speaker 5: morning and it was, we did a live stream right afterwards.
• 58:39
  Speaker 5: And I, it was my initial takeaway was like the
• 58:41
  Speaker 5: minutes that the economy got so deeply paled in comparison
• 58:46
  Speaker 5: to To what voters would tell you is their absolute priority,
• 58:50
  Speaker 5: which is the cost of living and the inflation. Trump
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: barely talked about it except to blame Biden.
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 58:55
  Speaker 5: And then he spent the rest. Like, if you I
• 58:57
  Speaker 5: should do this, I should go figure out what is
• 58:58
  Speaker 5: the breakdown of things where Trump was talking about trans
• 59:01
  Speaker 5: stuff versus the economy? Because I bet trans stuff got
• 59:04
  Speaker 5: way more time.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: Than I recognize. And earlier in the speech. The first,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: I had the same thought. The first issue that he
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: went into depth on was trans athletes. Yeah. And it
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: was like a lot. Yeah. And then he got to
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: the economy and stuff like that. But it was very,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden did all the bad things to make inflation
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: bags and eggs. And then I'm going to do great stuff.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: I'm going to drill, tax cut. But it really is,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: the scarcity point is interesting because It's almost like I'm
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: going to get government out of the way with all
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: the bad things the government's doing, all the crazy, corrupt,
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: woke shit. And then once that happens, I don't need
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: to do anything to the economy. It's just going to
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: be great again.
• 59:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you get rid of DEI and everything just– prices
• 59:44
  Speaker 5: go down. Those things exactly work together.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. How do you think it landed with voters? You
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: were talking about audience. Like we always know that even
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: the CNN poll and the CBS poll, I think it
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: was like 20 percent of the sample were Democrats in both.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: This happens obviously when a Democratic president is up too.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: mostly Democrats watch when Republicans, you know. So the audience
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: that we're probably concerned about is the audience of, you know,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: maybe first-time Trump voters. I know you've been talking to
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: them in your Focus Group podcast, Biden to Trump voters.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: What do you, how do you think it landed, the
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: speech landed with them?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 5: Well, so here's the thing. I just don't think that
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 5: many people are going to watch, like the State of
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 5: the Union, which is not called the State of the Union,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 5: this first one, because he's only been there a little
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 5: bit of time.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: I'm calling it State of the Union.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 5: That's fine.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: It's like Gulf of Mexico.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. Uh, these speeches are for two groups
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: for people like us, right. Who have to watch them
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 5: and like hate watch them really.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 5: And for fan service. And I thought it was a
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 5: pretty effective fan service speech and the fact that it
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: like blended kind of rally points. And he was, he
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 5: was doing all the hits for the people. And that's
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 5: why he talked about trans stuff. It's why he talked
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 5: about spending. It was, um, you know, and, and, uh, and, and,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 5: you know, he did the thing with Zelensky where he
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: read the letter there for the first time. Like it was,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 5: pretty theatrical. Again, I don't think people are going to
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: watch it or consume it last night, but I think
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 5: in terms of what they're going to get out of it,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 5: here's the main takeaway. Republicans were pumped during this. They
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 5: looked like they were having fun. The energy was high.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: They looked like they were winning. And Democrats sat there
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 5: with their arms crossed, waved a cane, and didn't really
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 5: know what to do in the face of like North
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 5: Korea levels of enthusiasm. I mean, Republicans cheering at stuff
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: that I'm like, well, if I showed you maniacs cheering
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: like this.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Because Trump sounds- For invading Greenland.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right?
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 5: Like you guys would never have believed me. You tell
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 5: me how deranged I was if I showed you what's
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 5: happening right now 10 years ago and said, no, you're
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 5: going to cheer for all this stuff and he's going
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 5: to sound just this moronic and you're going to love it.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: They would have said no. The only thing I liked
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 5: about the whole speech and the only thing that I
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 5: think unifies us today, because it's supposed to be a
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 5: country unifying speech, and the only unifying piece of it
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: was I think the ritual humiliation of Marco Rubio is
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 5: something we can all get behind in that speech.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: I think he's setting up Rubio to be the patsy.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, he was almost explicit about it last night,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: but I had been thinking this for a while, like
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: something's going to go wrong in the world, and he's
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: going to be like, oh, that's Marco Rubio's fault. Yeah.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Which is great. It's one thing that we can all
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: be excited about. I like that. What did you think
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: about the Al Green interruption, the resist, or the resist t-shirts,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: I guess, there was the false thing. Here's my, like,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: I came down on the side of like, I don't
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: really think it matters either way. I wouldn't have advised
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: people to do that. But then you have a lot
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: of people online who are like, why do the Democrats
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: go at all? And it just feels, it feels like there's,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of debate about what Democrats should do
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: among Democrats. And then there's a lot of different responses
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: from Democrats that we saw last night. And none of
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: it seems like it's necessarily valuable. I don't know that
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: it's necessarily harmful either. I don't know. What do you think?
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, I could go on at length about all
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 5: the things I think Democrats need to do from a
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 5: communication standpoint. But I will say for a thing like this,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: I just think it's the thing where you sit there
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 5: in stony silence and then clap for the kid with cancer. Like, oh, yeah,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 5: that's basically it. Like and I don't think I think
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: creating Marjorie Taylor Greene did this with Biden. I just
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 5: think when they have that scene from The Wedding Singer
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: where he's drunk and he's yelling because I have a
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 5: microphone and you don't like Trump's on stage. He's got
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 5: the room. You're not going to win this. So just
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 5: like sit there and be. And this is my overall
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 5: feeling about Democrats right now is I think Democrats are
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 5: internalizing the need that they need to be better communicators.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 5: But for some reason, they are deciding that that means
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: they should all just like get on TikTok and they
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: should become.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Vertical video is the way to be a better communicator.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: Put on sunglasses and do a slow-mo walk. And I
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: just– what I want to tell Democrat– if Democratic legislators
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 5: are listening, you do not need to be influencers. You
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: do need to be influential, which means govern– And and
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 5: and give let the influencers package your stuff for audiences.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 5: But you should look like serious legislators. You should look
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 5: like people who are going to be an opposition party
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 5: that people can take seriously. And like if you're good
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 5: at it, if you're AOC and you like know how
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 5: to do it, cool. But nobody should be going to
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 5: Chuck Schumer and be like, you know what, Chuck? What
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 5: we really need is you on the TikToks because that
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 5: is going to give the Democratic Party the brand that
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 5: it's looking for. Like, don't do that.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: I know Dan Pfeiffer said that this is there's a
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: lot of like reading stage directions from the Democrats, which
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: has really stuck with me. And there is a lot
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: of that right now. And I'm trying to like give
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: them some leeway because no one knows what we're doing
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: right now. And it's a new world. And like, did
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: you read JVL's triad this morning?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: This is such a mean question. What was JBL's take?
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: He was talking about how we are not in, that
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: there's a group of people that think this is, Against normalism.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah. I haven't read it yet.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure you know, because he's your bestie, I'm
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: sure you, but it's like, that we're not in normal
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: politics anymore. And that some people are like, in a
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: normal politics scenario, you sit down, you clap, the Democrats
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: have the right message, stuff like that, but we're not
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: in that world anymore, which I agree, where then he
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: didn't get to, so then what do we do? Like,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: What kind of response do you have in a not
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: normal world?
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: And that I haven't figured out yet. I don't know
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: if you have thoughts on that.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 5: I mean, generally, I think part of the problem is
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 5: that Democrats are looking for other people to tell them
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 5: how to behave in this moment because people do feel
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 5: at sea. And I guess I would say to them, like,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 5: this is going to sound ridiculous, but like, What do
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: you feel authentically?
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I've been saying the same thing.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 5: What do you feel authentically is the thing that is
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 5: the most harmful? And then go talk about that and
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 5: do it as somebody who where you express your concern
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 5: for the American people and the direction of the country
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 5: sincerely and say, if I were in charge or what
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 5: I think that what we should be doing instead is this.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: And I just I do think everybody's like, well, what
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 5: is my talking point of this? Like, By the time
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 5: everybody gets their talking points or by the time everybody's
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 5: being told what the– everybody's focus– as somebody who does
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 5: focus groups, I'm like, please don't wait for my guidance. Like,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 5: just say the thing, you know, that matters to you.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: No, this is what– like, I have been outraged by
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: some of the specifics around USAID. It's like, I get it.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: I see the polls. I don't even have to see
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: recent polls. I know from years ago that, like, no
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: one likes USAID or foreign aid is unpopular. But I
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: also think, like, you know– When the government already spends
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: $ 10 million on like food for starving children and then
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: they just like let the food spoil because Elon cancels
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: the contract. I kind of think people would think that's
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: fucked up. I kind of think they would think that's wasteful.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 5: Or at least a measure of incompetence.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's like know the political context. But if
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: it makes you mad, I think the passion is more
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: important right now. We're two years out from the election
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: than figuring out exactly the right message, which we need
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: to do eventually. But like right now, we need the passions.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 5: And also, I don't know. The message to me is
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: always a little bit like, what are you mad about?
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 5: That's Trump's fault. You know, like the reason I do
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 5: focus here is a lot. So I'm like, what what
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 5: is annoying them? What don't they like? Why is that
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: Trump's fault? Like this is that's all the Trump guys did. Right.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 5: Or are you mad about inflation? Are you mad at this?
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 5: That's Biden's fault.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 5: Biden's fault. Biden's fault.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: I'm going to fix it.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: I saw that you said Alyssa Slotkin's response was good.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: What did you like about it?
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 5: Well. You know, here's the thing, though, just what you
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: and I were just talking about where we talk about
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 5: the passion and the authenticity. So I'm an Alyssa Slotkin fangirl.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 5: So I'm not good for this because I love a
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 5: sturdy Midwesterner who talks about her mixed marriage parents of Republic.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: That's great. And I also thought she was doing something.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 5: really important. I talked about this a little bit with
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 5: Tommy that I think Democrats have been failing to do,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 5: which is voters don't care about democracy, quad democracy. And
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: so to tell a better story about democracy and make
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 5: people care about it, you have to tell a better
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 5: story about America. And she talked about democracy last night
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: through the lens of America and why America is uniquely good.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 5: And I was like, yes, this is what I have
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 5: been waiting for. The problem is that Alyssa is, this
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 5: is not a problem that she's a serious person. And
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 5: so she delivered what I was like a 10 out
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 5: of 10 technical speech for 2009. And I just I
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 5: think that if I think she can and should be
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: a leader for the Democrats, somebody that they look to
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 5: to think about how they're going to like who their
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 5: leaders are going to be in the future. But I
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 5: also think they're going to have it's such a it's
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 5: such a tone shift to go from Trump's just casual
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 5: way of being up there, the bombasticity to sort of
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 5: the like very Washington I'm going to read a speech now.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 5: I'm going to do it very proficiently. The substance is
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 5: going to be very good. But did I make you,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 5: did I light you up? Did I make you feel
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 5: like I was your champion? And I was, no. And like,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 5: that's kind of what people I know that's what, I
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 5: listen to Democrats all day long. And if you ask me,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 5: what do Democrats want? I'll be like, They want to win.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 5: They want to feel like they are winning something and
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 5: they want someone to go make them feel that way.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: This is my almost exact thought. And it's been like
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: what has what I'm struggling with and thinking about what
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: Democrats need to do, which is I would wager that
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: if you had focus group dials of Alyssa Slotkin's speech,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: that if you conducted a focus group and maybe you will,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: where you like play some clips of the speech, it
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: would resonate really well with the swing voters, with people like.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: And I think it was like, and I also think,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: you know, in fairness, it wasn't just like it hit
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: all the message points. I thought the end where she
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: talked about democracy was, it was stirring. She was, and
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: she even, you know, she hinted at, we're really going
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: through something right now as a country. So I get
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: that people would like it, but then I also struggle
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: with like, why in our party are all of the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: moderates who can win, who are on message, like, They
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: don't really they don't convey the urgency and the passion
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: as much. And then the progressives who are not necessarily
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: on the message, they have the passion, but are not
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: it's not necessarily landing with the right voters. And I
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: just I I want Democrats to combine both of those things.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: And it's just really it's lacking right now.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 5: We used to have this joke in conservative circles where
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 5: like where we would talk about how conservatives didn't make
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 5: good protesters because it would be like, what do we want?
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 5: slow and gradual change. When do we want it in
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: the due course of time? You know, like, uh, and
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 5: it's a little bit, it's the way that everything is
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 5: upside down. Now it's a little bit where Democrats are
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 5: like that, where the, the, the sober and serious people
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 5: in the party really, who I think appeal to swing
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 5: voters and can win in a lot of these swingier places.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: Like they're not filled with the passionate bombastic intensity of, uh,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 5: what I think a lot of people are yearning for
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 5: out of leaders in this moment, right? They are threading
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 5: a needle by saying, yeah, like what's happening right now
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 5: is strange. But they're also like, but I'll work with
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 5: him and I'll do, and you know, they, and that,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 5: it's like Obama when he sat there chatting with Trump
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 5: or Joe Biden went to the office. There's this real
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 5: dissonance between the guy is a really bad guy destroying
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 5: democracy and also, hey, bud.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: And it's not a hay bud because what people think
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: when they see that or what I worry that people
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: think is like, oh, it's all fake, right? And what
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: they're thinking, what I'm sure Joe Biden was thinking, you know,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: is like, well, if we're going to be the party
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: that says like, you know, we need to be a
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: big diverse country politically and make sure that everyone gets
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: along and institutions and laws and like, I have to
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: act like that. But also we're in a media environment
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: now where an attention strategy to get people's attention is
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: the most important thing, but to get people's attention is
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: it feels like you need to be more like a
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Trump or more like some of the bomb throwers on
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: the left. And I don't know how you get people's
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: attention in this environment being just a normal person who
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: wants to like, you know, who has the right message
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: and wants to be serious and sober. Like that, that
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: seems to me the challenge.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 5: Well, I think, you know, it's funny. Normal person is
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: better than normal politician. And so I think here's, here's
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 5: the voters just say it all day long. They're like,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 5: I don't, So and so seems like a regular politician.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 5: And I guess that's my unfair because I liked it
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 5: knock on the speech is it seemed like sort of
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 5: a regular political speech. What voters say that they want
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 5: actually was talking to Dems right now is a real
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 5: is funny because it's just a bunch of it is like.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: It's black women and it's older white men. Everybody sort
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 5: of agrees we need a straight white man who's not
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 5: a politician. It's like everyone has really internalized this idea
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 5: that everybody is too racist because people will be like,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 5: you know, I love Pete Buttigieg, but we're never electing
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 5: a gay guy. Or I love, you know, Jasmine Crockett,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 5: but we're never electing a black, like everybody's just like,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 5: who is a white straight man who's also not part
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 5: of like the Democratic firmament? And then, you know, everybody
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 5: just goes, Mark Cuban.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 5: Like if you raise Mark Cuban to voters, they're all like, yeah,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 5: that guy or they bring it up. And so and
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 5: what they mean is, can we get our own bro-ish
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 5: billionaire who can go on every podcast and talk normally,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 5: but also basically shares our values?
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: Yep. Bombastic, but not cruel.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 5: That's right, like, he's on a TV show and apparently
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 5: we're doing that now, so.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: But it's now like you have this like very narrow,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: narrow spot where someone, like, it's really hard to find
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: that person.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 5: Well, and it is, I mean, I just, I kind
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 5: of keep wanting to say to Democrats, like, don't, I
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 5: don't want you to believe that we're too racist and
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 5: sexist and country or too homophobic. Because I'm sorry, but most,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 5: like a lot of your best stars, a lot of
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 5: your bench doesn't meet this criteria.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: Also, we would never have elected Barack Obama if we were.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: And that was, again, people were saying that after 2004, like, oh, well,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: Barack Hussein Obama? No, we need like a white guy
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: from the South. That's the only way that we're going
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: to win again. So you've done a bunch of focus
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: groups since Trump's inauguration. What are people saying?
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 5: It depends which people.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 5: Look, so I actually, maybe I'll try to split it
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 5: into three buckets. So the Trump fans, right, your MAGA voters,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 5: the number one thing, their takeaway, and this last night
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 5: he leaned into this, which is he's doing stuff and
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 5: he's doing it fast. He's like, yeah, it's like the action.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 5: And they don't, I don't really know what all these
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 5: executive orders are about, but I know he's signing a
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 5: lot of them. And they're saying, you know, I see
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 5: ice trucks in my neighborhood, so I know they're doing
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 5: something about immigration. Um, and so there's, there's really that
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 5: bucket of love with, and they love what Doge is doing.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 5: What is it doing? They don't know, but like it
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 5: is doing stuff and they see the action. And I
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 5: think for what has become a real impatient American way
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 5: of like, I do not want to wait for the
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: Congress to pass all of, just do a thing that helps. Um,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 5: which I think is not great for our system of government. Um,
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 5: but there just is this sense of, I'm not waiting
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 5: for y'all to get get it together and compromise. Like
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 5: Trump is doing stuff. That's good.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 5: So that's one bucket. Then I would say there's, I
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 5: wrote a piece for the Atlantic yesterday, which JVL was like,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 5: why do you, you literally have this other media company.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: Don't read JVL because I've been busy writing for the Atlantic.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 5: I am the worst.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: I am the worst.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I deserve.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: I deserve.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 5: But like the the they just hound me more than
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 5: he does.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 5: They were they I was I had been doing a
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 5: series of focus groups with kind of the low. They're
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 5: not just not hard partisans, but they voted for Trump.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 5: I've done a lot of Biden to Trump voters. And
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 5: the thing that you hear from these sort of not
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 5: super political, the not super mega voters is they're just like,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 5: I want something done about the economy. And JBL and
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 5: I do have this fight all the time about, he's like,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 5: the economy's good and this is all just fives and
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 5: it's BS. And I get really mad at him because
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 5: I say, I don't know, man. All I do is
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 5: listen to people talk about the real trade-offs in their lives.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 5: They know exactly how much everything at the grocery store is.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 5: And it's not just like a talking point about groceries
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 5: or gas, whatever. People's cost of living is the place
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 5: where politics meets their lives. And it is an enormous
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 5: impact on them.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: And they're not, I don't think that they're brainwashed about this, right?
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: Like they go to the store and see, there has
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: been an affordability crisis even before inflation. Like there's been
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: an affordability crisis, especially around housing. I mean, I remember
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: even before the inflation really took off, I did a
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: bunch of focus groups for the wilderness and like every
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: demographic group that I talked to in every part of
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: the country, young people, old people, housing. Housing was their
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: number one thing. Yeah. And so like, I do think
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: that's real.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 5: I am certain that it's real. And I think that
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 5: it has been tough for Washington to like catch up to.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 5: And honestly, I don't understand why this is so hard
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 5: for even like JVL or Democrats. to understand because we've
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 5: been talking about people, Democrats have been talking about income
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 5: inequality for forever. So like maybe what's happening is that yes,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 5: some people are doing well in this economy and that
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 5: the macro economy can be well, while there's still a
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 5: group of people who are falling further and further behind
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 5: and sort of a middle-ish class tier that is finding
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 5: the level of inflation to be really having a dramatic
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 5: impact on their life. So those voters are very interesting
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 5: to me because I think those are the ones who
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 5: easily either could swing back in 26 or even if
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 5: they're low propensity and maybe aren't big midterm voters, they're
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 5: the kinds of people that like, they're just, they're not
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 5: like a firm part of the Trump or Republican coalition.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 5: They're just mad about prices. And they're also, and what
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 5: they're saying right now is, why is he doing this
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 5: other stuff and not focusing on prices? And so like
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 5: that to me is a real opportunity for anybody who
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 5: wants to disrupt sort of the the broader Trump coalition
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 5: is to say, hey, he's not focused enough on this.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 5: And you can see it in the polling too. It
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 5: has been almost, I don't know if axiomatic is the
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 5: right word, but it has been a truism that sort
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 5: of Trump equals good economy. Like people kind of have
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 5: this vague sense, Trump, businessman, good economy. That's why he
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 5: was elected. And now his net.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 5: Positive rating on the economy. People are like, you're not
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 5: paying enough attention to it. And that's what we hear
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 5: in the focus groups from this group. And that's what
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 5: I was listing is all the people who are like,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 5: I don't know, inflation is still really bad for me.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 5: Maybe it's even getting worse. So like the tariff stuff
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 5: scares me or prices are getting worse. And he seems
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 5: to be doing all this other stuff. He's not focused
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 5: on this. So I think that is an opportunity. So
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 5: that's the other bucket. And then there's a third bucket,
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 5: which is the Dems who are are feeling very depressed.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 5: And they are, I think, desperate for a leader. The
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 5: absence of And I mean, I heard this before, too.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 5: I think a lot of the frustration with Biden and
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 5: his age that I heard from specifically from Democrats was
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 5: just around the fact that like he couldn't fight effectively.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: Because of that.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 5: And like now they're they're just kind of like, where
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 5: is everybody?
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 5: Where is the fighting? Where where are the people who
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 5: are standing up? Why isn't this happening? And then, you know,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 5: and it's you get. It is tough because you sort
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 5: of like beg the Democrats to do something and they're like, OK, well,
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 5: we're going to go protest outside USAID. And then you're like, no, no, no,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 5: but not that. Nobody meant that. So it's a little
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 5: it's hard. It's not an easy solution, but I just
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 5: know what that's what they want.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: How are they feeling about Doge and Elon? I know
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: that when you did some groups, I think before the inauguration,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: there was some, you know, worry about Elon, but also
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: let's give him a chance. He's smart, whatever. How do
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: they feel now? And is the I'm very curious if
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: the incompetence and chaos of what's happening is landing with people.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 5: So Elon's I did a good episode of it with
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 5: about Elon with Kara Swisher, where we listened to we
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 5: asked a bunch of Biden to Trump voters about Elon,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 5: what they thought. And you could basically split the groups
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 5: in two. On one side, there are the groups, there
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 5: was the people in the groups who were like, yes,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 5: love this. They're cutting stuff. They're finding abuse. They, you know,
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 5: they know about the, they think about the condoms, like
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 5: the fake condom story. They'd internalize that, you know. And
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 5: so therefore, and they also, they know Elon. I was
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 5: listening to Kara talk about Elon recently. is funny to
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 5: me because I often listen to Kara only when she's
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 5: talking about politics. And when she was talking about Elon,
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 5: I was like, oh my gosh, you know all this
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 5: stuff that I had no idea about. Because Elon's just
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 5: one of these cultural figures that I haven't paid attention
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 5: to until he broke the political plane, right? But a
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 5: lot of these voters have been, just like with Trump,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 5: they'd been tracking Elon forever. They hold stock in his companies.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 5: They think they wanna go to Mars. Like they're invested
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 5: in the whole Elon thing. Then there's another half of
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 5: the voters who are like, why does this billionaire want
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 5: to be in our government? Like, what is he doing?
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 5: And I often talk about how persuasion is not teaching,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 5: it's like making somebody switch a position that they previously held.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 5: It is about unlocking something that they already kind of believe.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 5: And so people have deeply embedded in them the archetype
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 5: of this sort of evil billionaire trying to get more.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 5: And so there's a lot of people who are just
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 5: like confused about why Elon is doing this. Why is
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 5: Elon the guy? Why is this billionaire who they know
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 5: gave Trump a lot of money? Like, what is the
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 5: deal here? So there's this other group that's just deeply skeptical.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 5: And I thought that was a real vulnerability for Trump
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 5: and Elon.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: And I will just say, I know Cara gave you
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: her theory about that he's just collecting all this data
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: and information to feed into the AI models. I think
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: there's something there. All the PSA hosts think I'm a
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: little crazy, I think.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 4: Oh, really?
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: No, I'm with you guys. I think it's like a real...
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: It's funny.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 5: That was her theory, and it was just the first
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 5: time I'd heard it, and it made a great deal
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 5: of sense to me as a thing. Because there's a
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 5: world out there of people who know Elon really well.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 5: And they all really balk at the notion that somehow
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 5: it's all corrupt. They're like, he's not corrupt. He's just...
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 5: You know, he's like a.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: Well, the whole.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, this was the case with Trump, too. The whole, like,
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: he's so rich. Why does he need more money? He's
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: already rich enough. He's doing this out of the goodness
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: of his heart. That has some purchase, I think.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 5: That works with some voters. Yeah, that he is doing
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 5: this because he really cares about America.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 4: And.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Maybe. I mean, I don't know. I don't know.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 5: I don't know all the rich people.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: And I don't know.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 5: But I just... I suspect that people get very rich
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 5: like that because they like to continue to get very rich.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 5: I don't know about how much of it is like
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 5: a deep corruption versus Elon thinking, having like a master
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 5: of the universe feeling, right? Like, yeah, give me all
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 5: this and I'm going to do what I want with it.
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 5: And like the ego on these people, that to me
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 5: could be enough explanation itself. But I do, knowing not
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 5: a ton about AI, just enough to be dangerous, it
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 5: struck me as an interesting thing. idea that the government
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 5: was the last sort of big pot of information that
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 5: one could get access to for the language learning models.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: And I do think, and you would know this better,
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: but I think for no small number of conservatives, the
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: idea that Elon Musk is poking around in all of
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: our private data and information, and not like the MAGA fans,
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: but like some people have got to be like, and
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: Alyssa Slotkin brought this up in her speech last night.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: I know she has said previously, that she was hearing
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: this in some town halls in some like rural parts
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: of Michigan. People were like, what is he doing in
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: our data? Like, I do think that has some, that
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: could be an effective message.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 5: I think so too. And look, I don't know what
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 5: he's doing, but that's also, what's so weird is that
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 5: all the people who love Elon are like big transparency advocates.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 5: Elon himself will tell you he's a big transparency advocate.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 5: None of this is transparent. And I do think that
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 5: that is something that people should be like, what is happening?
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 5: You don't even have to say what you think it is.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 5: Just put them on defense and say, I demand you
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 5: tell us what you're doing with Americans' information.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: Last question, I'll let you go. How are you guys
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: thinking about fighting back at the bulwark? Have you had
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: conversations post-election like, okay, this is a new world we're in,
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: this is pretty scary, and what's the best way for
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: us to contribute?
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't necessarily, I obviously
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 5: have more activist-y things that I do that is how
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 5: I think about how do you fight back exactly. I
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 5: think for the bulwark, it's more about, I think that
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 5: Trump is such a liar that what he creates is
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 5: this distortion field that for a big group of Americans
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 5: suddenly causes them to be like, I'm trying to figure
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 5: out what the truth is. Who can I trust? What
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 5: is going on? And I want to be a place
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 5: where people feel like I trust these people because we've
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 5: earned it not by being right all the time, actually,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 5: but by having really honest discussions between us where we
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 5: admit my favorite thing about like JBL and I do
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 5: the secret pod and we call it the secret pod
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 5: in part because we give ourselves permission to be wrong
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 5: on it a lot. And we, but we tell everybody,
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 5: I don't know that this is my opinion. Like I
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 5: am trying to figure out what my opinion is. And we,
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 5: we work through a lot of it together. And so
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 5: I think for us, we want to put more nutritious
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 5: information to the world. We want to have a community that,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 5: I think we do want to model, though, and maybe
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 5: this is more intentional than anything else, there's a tremendous
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 5: amount of fear right now. We are watching so many
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 5: media companies be unwilling to say the true thing or
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 5: kind of mind their P's and Q's or worry about
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 5: their parent companies and the deals that they have to do.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 5: And I think we just try to want to maintain
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 5: and hold our space as we will continue to tell
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 5: the truth and we don't We don't care. We don't have,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 5: Disney's not our parent company. Though if you want to
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 5: buy us, go ahead. But no, no, no, just kidding.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: Just kidding.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: Bob Iger, if you're listening.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we're not here to worry about, you know, their
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 5: mergers and acquisitions. We're just going to tell the truth
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 5: in this moment when I think people are desperate for
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 5: it and not a lot of people are giving it.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: That's great. Because I think building trust, I mean, the
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: lack of trust is what got us here. So I
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: think building trust is really important. Sarah, thanks for coming
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: by Podsafe America, as always. Oh, thanks for having me.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: Everyone check out the Focus Group podcast. Tommy's on this weekend,
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 5: Tommy's on this weekend.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: Check out all of your podcasts. Go to the Bulwark. Subscribe.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: It's fantastic.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 5: We're practically doing crossovers now.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: I love it. All right. Take care.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 4: Bye.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: One last thing before we go. Charlie Kirk, the founder
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: of Turning Points USA, General Maga Goober. He was the
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: first guest on Gavin Newsom's new podcast this week titled...
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom. We have a new pod competitor,
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: our own governor. So Newsom and Charlie Kirk got into it.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: I haven't listened to the whole thing yet, though. You
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: know what?
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: It's working.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of interested. I'm intrigued. It's piqued my interest
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: to hear what Gavin Newsom and Charlie Kirk are going
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: to talk about. But anyway, what's most important for all
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: of you is that Charlie Kirk offered this assessment of
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: the podcast industry.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: It's by no coincidence that... that out of the long-form
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: podcasting genres, the top 10, eight of them are conservative
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: or center-right. Rogan, Megyn Kelly, Theo Vaughn, the Paul brothers,
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 3: our program, Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh. There's a singular one
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: on the left, which is Pod Save America, which is
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: just like a bunch of Obama bros agreeing with each
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 3: other for 90 minutes and saying that we're not very smart.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: And, you know, and so anyway. Now, I find that
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: grossly unfair because- We have kept this podcast just a
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: hair under 90 minutes.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: I'm actually worried now that I'm looking at the clock
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: that we didn't.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: It's going to be close. I think my conversation with
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: Sarah was 30. We're like at 55.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: Ad breaks. We probably didn't make it. You know what?
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: We're not counting ad breaks. We're not counting ad breaks.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: Spot the lie.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: Spot the lie.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, I appreciate the recognition.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we disagree.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: Yay!
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: We just did over where you should hold town halls.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: There you go. There you go.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: That's our show for today. Tommy's going to be back
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: on the feed on Sunday with an interview with Alistair Campbell,
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: the top labor strategist in the UK, about how parties
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: come back from the dead, his advice for Democrats, and
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: the mess in Europe. It's going to be pretty interesting,
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: so check it out. And then we'll be back with
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: another episode in your feed on Tuesday. Have a great weekend.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: Talk to everyone soon.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 5: Bye, everyone.
• 1:28:59
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• 1:29:04
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• 1:29:29
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