Latest / Ridiculous History / CLASSIC: When Ancient India Beat Machiavelli to the Punch

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CLASSIC: When Ancient India Beat Machiavelli to the Punch · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Folks, if you were a fan of weird literature, you
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Speaker 1: have probably heard of machiavelli Is famous book The Prince,
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Speaker 1: which was either satire or a straight faced guy to
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Speaker 1: political manipulation to get the stuff you want.
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Speaker 2: Wasn't there also that posthumous TUPAC record that was called Machiavelli.
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Speaker 1: Well, posthumous that that goes to stuff they don't want
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Speaker 1: you to know.
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Speaker 3: An island. Oh, yes, you're right, You're absolutely right. He's
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Speaker 3: also into Assassin's screen games too, and Brotherhood. He's very important,
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Speaker 3: and especially in Brotherhood. He was a wily kind of thinker,
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Speaker 3: wasn't he. I mean he was, I guess a very
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Speaker 3: practical philosopher of sorts, you know, almost like a sun
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Speaker 3: Zu type figure, you know. I mean he really had
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Speaker 3: a viewpoint that he was able to funnel into some
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Speaker 3: pretty actionable behavior.
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Speaker 2: Is that people could consider kind of ruthless and a
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Speaker 2: bit cruel and you know, but ultimately self serving. Playing
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Speaker 2: the game, the climbing of the ladder, all of that stuff,
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Speaker 2: little finger type shit.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, chaos as a ladder. And it turns out, as
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Speaker 1: we'll see in this weekend's classic episode, that Machiavelli himself,
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Speaker 1: even though his name now functions as a term of
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Speaker 1: manipulative behavior, Machiavelli himself was not the first proponent of
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Speaker 1: cold hearted stake craft. The actual, like the actual origin
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Speaker 1: of this which we discovered in this episode, goes back
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Speaker 1: to ancient India, and a book with unclear authors seems
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Speaker 1: to have preceded the ideas of Machiavelli by almost two
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Speaker 1: thousand years.
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Speaker 3: Jeez leis that's a lot of years. Well, let's hear
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Speaker 3: all about it.
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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. In the world
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Speaker 1: of business, self improvement and management courses, there are several
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Speaker 1: books that you will continually encounter, things like you know,
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Speaker 1: The Art of War by Sun Zoo or perhaps Justice
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Speaker 1: Famously the Prince by Nicolo Machiavelli. My name is.
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Speaker 3: Ben, My name is Nolan Ben. Your Machiavellian accent was
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Speaker 3: on point.
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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Noel, thank you so much. When
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Speaker 1: you and I have done Italian accents in the past,
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Speaker 1: we have endeavored not to go too far into a
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Speaker 1: cartoon land. So it's it's been a day by day
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Speaker 1: thing for both of us.
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Speaker 3: Or maybe I was just trying to employ flattery to
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Speaker 3: get you to do what I want?
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Speaker 1: How machiavellian? Indeed, And how could we mention Machiavelli and
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Speaker 1: the Prince without, of course mentioning our own mentor in
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Speaker 1: the lawful evil alignment super producer Casey Pegram.
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Speaker 3: But he seems so nice. Listen that, such a delightful sound.
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Speaker 3: How can he be such a monster? Well? What is
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Speaker 3: what is a monster? Really? That depends on perspective? What
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Speaker 3: is a person?
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Speaker 1: Right?
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Speaker 3: What is a question?
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Speaker 1: We could go we could go down this rabbit hole,
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Speaker 1: but instead let's talk about Machiavelli just a little bit. This,
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Speaker 1: this author of The Prince, has become in many ways
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Speaker 1: synonymous with unethical dealing, right, wherein all actions are rated
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Speaker 1: as good if they benefit the person committing those actions.
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Speaker 3: Double dealing, treachery, schemery, deceit indeed.
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Speaker 1: So you'll find things like this The Prince is published
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Speaker 1: in fifteen thirty two, and you'll find quotes in there
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Speaker 1: such as a prince never lacks good reasons to break
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Speaker 1: his promises?
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Speaker 3: What a doche?
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if we should be
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Speaker 1: so quick to judge. I'm on the fence about it,
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Speaker 1: because you can see the utility of the book. I
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Speaker 1: had to read it in grad school.
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Speaker 3: Actually, I'm sure you studied international affairs, and this is
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Speaker 3: something that would certainly come into play with things like diplomacy.
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Speaker 3: I mean, a little healthy subterfuge can go a long way,
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Speaker 3: or a little bit of a healthy flattery could maybe
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Speaker 3: get someone to do exactly what you want without having
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Speaker 3: to strong arm them, make it seem like it was
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Speaker 3: their idea, to sort of incept them, as it were.
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Speaker 1: And you and I, in the horse of preparing for
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Speaker 1: this episode, discovered that maybe the Prince is not as
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Speaker 1: original as we once thought it was.
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Speaker 3: Ah, yes, you've arrived the topic of today's episode. Let's
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Speaker 3: see if I can get this pronunciation right. It's a
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Speaker 3: little book, a little known book, and I don't know,
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Speaker 3: I mean generally little known, certainly known to some called
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Speaker 3: the Arthur Shastra. Well done, nol, Did I get it?
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Speaker 1: I think you did. I think you did. The Arthur Shastra.
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Speaker 1: What's this book about?
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Speaker 3: Well, this book was actually very recently discovered in only
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Speaker 3: think the early nineteen hundreds. It had been transcribed from
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Speaker 3: an original copy onto I want to say a palm
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Speaker 3: leaf for a series of palm leaves, isn't that right,
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Speaker 3: Ben In this book, The Artha Shastra was most likely
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Speaker 3: written by a group of authors, but is typically credited
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Speaker 3: to a man named Katilia, who served as an advisor
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Speaker 3: to Chandragupta, who was the ruler of the Iron Age
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Speaker 3: civilization of the Marian Empire, which was a vast section
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Speaker 3: of northern India, and it was actually one of the
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Speaker 3: earliest ruling societies in the continent of India.
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Speaker 1: Yes, and Cotulia, we believe now was the pen name
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Speaker 1: for a minister named Chanakya. But as as No points out,
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Speaker 1: this probably wasn't just one person writing. The text itself
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Speaker 1: is divided into fifteen books that function as a primer
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Speaker 1: for kings.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 1: It covers a military subject's political, economic subjects. The name
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Speaker 1: Arthur Shastra, the concept translates to like means of life
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Speaker 1: or worldly success. Pro tip if you run it through
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Speaker 1: your Google Translate, it will tell you the translation is economics.
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Speaker 3: Also seen it written as science of Politics or the
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Speaker 3: science of political economy. Those are also pretty commonly accepted translations.
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Speaker 3: But the reason that this gets lumped in with Machiavelli,
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Speaker 3: who is much more well known comparatively, is that it
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Speaker 3: also dealt with a lot of that kind of shady
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Speaker 3: subterfugei manipulative techniques that Machiavelli dealt with in writings like
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Speaker 3: The Prince, And in addition to things like how to
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Speaker 3: set up a ring of spies and manage your secret agents,
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Speaker 3: it gives suggestions like a king should fake divine miracles
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Speaker 3: in order to impart a sense of almost godlike power
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Speaker 3: to his subjects.
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Speaker 1: Not just credibility. But they get into the brass tax
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Speaker 1: of it, and they say, you should go to state
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Speaker 1: temples fake a miracle so you'll increase your revenue from pilgrimages,
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Speaker 1: so people will get taxed to go see that part
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Speaker 1: where you know you made a statue cry milk or something.
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Speaker 1: And this is fascinating because the book itself predates the
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Speaker 1: prints by about one eight hundred years or so. And
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Speaker 1: I believe that the copy we found in the early
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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, we being human civilization, not just Casey and
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Speaker 1: Nolan myself, this was a copy of a copy right
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Speaker 1: it had already existed in some other form. So we
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Speaker 1: know that this book was valuable enough to be transcribed.
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Speaker 1: And it's a really unsentimental read. You can find free
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Speaker 1: translations of it online. You can download the PDF and
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Speaker 1: check it out firsthand. But in this in the Arthur Shastra,
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Speaker 1: Catilia openly writes about stuff like assassinations, when you should
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Speaker 1: kill your family members, and as Noel said, how to
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Speaker 1: manage secret agents. Also, when is it useful to violate
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Speaker 1: a treaty?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, anytime it suits you, right right.
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Speaker 1: This this draws comparisons, of course to the Prince, because
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Speaker 1: it is seen as intensely a moral right, lacking morals,
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Speaker 1: and it makes me think of you're familiar with D
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Speaker 1: and D right, dungeons and dragons. So there's this concept
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Speaker 1: of alignments that go either from good to evil or
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Speaker 1: lawful to chaotic, and this counts as lawful evil, which also,
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Speaker 1: you know, I think is the alignment of the quistor.
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure. Who also is in real life,
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Speaker 3: actual facts a dungeon master? Easy, I could see it.
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Speaker 3: I mean, he has a dungeon, is the master of it.
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Speaker 3: That's where he dwells.
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Speaker 1: Oh man, he might be, and he might be in
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Speaker 1: the studio now, and we don't know. He is such
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Speaker 1: a creature, but he will he will eventually return. If
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Speaker 1: this is your first time tuning in and you're thinking
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Speaker 1: Ben Nole, super producer, Casey, who is this squister you
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Speaker 1: talk about? Just stick a stick around in one episode
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Speaker 1: or another.
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Speaker 3: It'll be time. Gosh.
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Speaker 1: I feel like maybe we're I know, we're sort of
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Speaker 1: whistling in a graveyard here, but maybe by talking about it,
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Speaker 1: he won't show up this episode.
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Speaker 3: Anyway. Back to Cortilia, there are actually quite a few
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Speaker 3: pretty serious differences between his writings and Machavelly. Right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that you and I were chopping
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Speaker 1: it up about, and you brought up a point that
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Speaker 1: I feel it feels pretty observant and I would agree with,
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Speaker 1: which is that you see this as more of a
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Speaker 1: I don't know, would you say, a slightly better moral
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Speaker 1: character to this work.
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Speaker 3: It does feel that way. It certainly doesn't seem to
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Speaker 3: lean quite as heavily on that deceitful manipulation that Machavelly
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Speaker 3: was so fond of. See.
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Speaker 1: I think that's a valid point. It's strange because people
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Speaker 1: still seem somewhat divided on this. You know, there are
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Speaker 1: some people who will prefer one over the other, or
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Speaker 1: feel like one is maybe less unethical. I feel like
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Speaker 1: I can't say more ethical less unethical. It's actually a
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Speaker 1: favorite book of Henry Kissinger. In his work World Order,
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Speaker 1: he refers to this ancient Indian treatise as something that
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Speaker 1: lays out the requirements of power and the dominant reality
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Speaker 1: in politics.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you were mentioning to me off air that
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Speaker 3: this kind of combines the ideas behind Confucianism and legalism
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Speaker 3: into sort of this hybrid, very functional philosophy of governing.
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Speaker 3: It even goes so far as to set up kind
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Speaker 3: of a schedule for a ruler that I'm gonna I'm
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Speaker 3: gonna give you a snippet of. I think this is great.
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Speaker 3: So in your first ninety minutes of the day at sunrise,
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Speaker 3: you the ruler should go through the various reports and
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Speaker 3: documents and you know, write checks and sign papers and
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Speaker 3: the like, what have you. Then the second ninety minutes
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Speaker 3: is when you should sort of hold court and allow
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Speaker 3: people to present their grievances to you, you know, public audiences,
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Speaker 3: let's call it. Then in the third ninety minutes, have
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Speaker 3: a little breakfast and you know, maybe take some personal time,
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Speaker 3: do some sit ups, some pull ups, I know you're
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Speaker 3: fond of doing that. Then have a little bath, little spa,
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Speaker 3: you know, read a book whatever. Then we're into the
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Speaker 3: fourth ninety minutes, when you get to meet with all
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Speaker 3: of your cabinet and your ministers and the like. Then
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Speaker 3: the fifth ninety minutes is when you should write your letters.
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Speaker 3: And then the last ninety minutes is when you take
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Speaker 3: a lunch. Apparently, yes, that's a late lunch.
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Speaker 1: It's a late lunch. And also it's a pretty demanding schedule.
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Speaker 1: We found that this bakes in about what five hours
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Speaker 1: of sleep.
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Speaker 3: Thinking roughly four and a half over the last than five. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: so you really have to burn the candle at both
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Speaker 3: ends to be a good leader as far as Cotilia
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Speaker 3: was concerned.
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Speaker 1: And this was enormously influential in ancient and classical India,
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Speaker 1: but as a result of invasions and conquests, it disappeared
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Speaker 1: from widespread usage sometime in the twelfth or thirteenth century.
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Speaker 1: So that's you know, that's the long and short of
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Speaker 1: how we lost it, which is a shame because you
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Speaker 1: have to wonder, you know, in the intervening centuries, how
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Speaker 1: knowledge of this text may have changed things, especially you know,
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Speaker 1: in the centuries before the publication had spread of the Prince. Again,
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Speaker 1: these books are related, but thereby no means exactly the same.
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Speaker 1: It's just this is the earlier record espousing this brutal
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Speaker 1: realism that most people associate with Machiavelli.
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Speaker 3: So it's much more an example of parallel thinking than
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Speaker 3: it is somebody ripping off somebody else.
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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, but how Machiavelli would it have been had
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Speaker 1: Michiavelli discovered this book and just not told anyone.
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Speaker 3: Oh. The most one thing I thought was really interesting
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Speaker 3: that that we both can across was this idea of
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Speaker 3: the mandala theory, which I think is super cool. He
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Speaker 3: Catilia lays out the idea of the universe as being
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Speaker 3: a mandala, a series of concentric circles with your particular
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Speaker 3: kingdom or culture in the middle, and then the concentric
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Speaker 3: circle outside of that is your enemy, and the concentric
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Speaker 3: circle outside of that is your enemy's enemy and therefore
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Speaker 3: your friend, and so on. And it's just an interesting
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Speaker 3: way of kind of like figuring out alignments, and I
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Speaker 3: thought it was a really cool kind of visual device.
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Speaker 3: He actually has twelve levels of these concentric circles and
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Speaker 3: gives specific advice on how to deal with them according
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Speaker 3: to which part of the mandala you find yourself in, right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, this author, this group of authors, is all about
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Speaker 1: list depending on the position of a state, These concentric
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Speaker 1: circles of this mandala that Noel just laid out here
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Speaker 1: very well put my day. Add the author recommends different
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Speaker 1: types of foreign policy. Do you pursue peace? Do you
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Speaker 1: pursue war? Do you pursue neutrality? Do you prepare for
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Speaker 1: war in a public way that signals it to your enemies?
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Speaker 1: Do you seek protection from another state? Or this is
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Speaker 1: the this is the weirdest one, and they write so
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Speaker 1: openly about this. Do you practice duplicity? Do you pursue
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Speaker 1: peace and war at the same time with the same kingdom?
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Speaker 3: Is that sort of a double agent kind of scenario
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Speaker 3: or are you sort of playing both sides? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: I totally could maybe have some rumors or leaks spread
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Speaker 1: that you're preparing for war or something while you offer
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Speaker 1: peace treaty. I mean, that's complex state craft. I wonder
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Speaker 1: what would happen kind of a false flag scenario. Huh,
15:53
Speaker 1: there we go, Yeah, there we go. And we might
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Speaker 1: be making this sound like a super villain textbook, But
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Speaker 1: what's fascinating about it is it proves a longstanding argument
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Speaker 1: or tenant or position in international affairs, which is that
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Speaker 1: state actors behave rationally and states do not have friends,
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Speaker 1: they have interest. So whatever neck of the global woods
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Speaker 1: you live in, when what are your politicians is telling
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Speaker 1: you that there is a friendship between your country and
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Speaker 1: another country, what that really means is they're cooperating because
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Speaker 1: their interest aligned, you know what I mean.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. And that's why it kind of becomes
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Speaker 3: interesting when you start applying this idea of Machiavelianism to
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Speaker 3: like an individual rather than a state actor. You know, because,
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Speaker 3: as it turns out, it's not necessarily the people that
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Speaker 3: behave in these ways. Isn't because necessarily they've read the
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Speaker 3: Prince or they've read the Arthur Shastra. It turns out,
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Speaker 3: psychologically certain people are just predisposed to being manipulative. And
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Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies, a psychologist by the name of
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Speaker 3: Richard Christy, along with his research partner Florence Geiss, developed
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Speaker 3: a test of Machiavelianism called the wait for it, the
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Speaker 3: mock four.
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Speaker 1: I love that name, and I'm so glad that you
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Speaker 1: introduced this test to me as well as to Casey
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Speaker 1: and you had the proposal that we all take a
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Speaker 1: version of the mock four test, which is available online.
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Speaker 3: I did, and we have.
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Speaker 1: Not shared our scores with each other. Right, we don't
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Speaker 1: know caseys, he doesn't know ours. We're all we're all
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Speaker 1: kind of in the dark, right.
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Speaker 3: And folks, if you want to take this along with us,
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Speaker 3: you can go to openpsychometrics dot org slash tests slash
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Speaker 3: m acch dash i V. Those are caps the mock
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Speaker 3: four part, so m ah dash Roman numeral four.
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Speaker 1: So there there are some interesting things about this test.
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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, you know, yeah, I want your take.
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Speaker 1: Do you think we should just tell each other our
18:03
Speaker 1: scores and then talk about the test a little or
18:06
Speaker 1: do you think we should talk about the test and
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Speaker 1: then tell each other our scores.
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Speaker 3: Let's talk about the test a little bit. Let's set
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Speaker 3: up what the you know, Let's just give a little
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Speaker 3: introduction to the test. Okay, sure.
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Speaker 1: So this is a series of what's it around twenty questions?
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Speaker 3: Y's right? I think it was twenty on the nose.
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Speaker 1: It's twenty questions on the nos You have five possibilities.
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Speaker 1: These are all questions that ask whether you agree or
18:30
Speaker 1: disagree to a statement, or if you remain neutral, and
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Speaker 1: to what degree you disagree or agree.
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Speaker 3: Right that being disagree, slightly disagree, neutral, slightly agree, or agree.
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Speaker 3: And again. This test was developed by Richard Christy and
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Speaker 3: Florence L. Geiss, and it was released in the seventies.
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Speaker 3: They began their research on it in the sixties, and
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Speaker 3: they compiled a list of statements from Machavelli's various writings,
18:55
Speaker 3: and they put them to you and ask you to
18:57
Speaker 3: weigh in on whether you which level of agreement or
19:00
Speaker 3: disagreement you have about that idea.
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Speaker 1: And these will have just to give you a taste
19:06
Speaker 1: of the statements you'll be reacting to. These are statements
19:09
Speaker 1: such as, never tell anyone the real reason you did
19:13
Speaker 1: something unless it is useful to do so. That's not
19:16
Speaker 1: so shady, and it's also kind of vague.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, or one should take action only when it is
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Speaker 3: morally right. The best way to handle people is to
19:25
Speaker 3: tell them what they want to hear, or things like
19:28
Speaker 3: it's hard to get ahead without cutting corners here and there.
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Speaker 1: And there are also questions that don't come from the
19:34
Speaker 1: book to or statements rather sure like you know it
19:37
Speaker 1: is possible to be good in all respects.
19:39
Speaker 3: Would you kill a puppy in cold blood? Would you
19:42
Speaker 3: kill a puppy and warm milk? Whatever, whatever, whatever your
19:45
Speaker 3: flavor is. So there are also some gut checks from
19:49
Speaker 3: the scientists where they say, are you responding honestly to
19:54
Speaker 3: this quiz? And of course it's an honor system. I
19:57
Speaker 3: didn't get that one. You didn't get that one.
19:59
Speaker 1: Oh wait, because there's the option after you complete the
20:02
Speaker 1: quiz to answer additional questions.
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Speaker 3: Ah, I didn't do that. I never never, I never
20:07
Speaker 3: go the extra mile with these kinds of things. It's
20:09
Speaker 3: like when I do tech support and they say, would
20:11
Speaker 3: you fill out a short survey after you complete your
20:14
Speaker 3: tech support request? I always decline every single time.
20:17
Speaker 1: I'll usually decline the survey, But if I've had to
20:20
Speaker 1: be on the phone with a living human being, then
20:23
Speaker 1: I always love to ask them if they get any
20:26
Speaker 1: sort of kudos for customer compliments, and unless they do
20:29
Speaker 1: an absolutely terrible job, I'll have them transfer you over
20:32
Speaker 1: to their manager. I'll just say this person is great.
20:35
Speaker 1: They should get a raise.
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Speaker 3: They're awesome. Oh, Ben, you are a much better person
20:38
Speaker 3: than me, And I think that will prove out in
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Speaker 3: the scores of the Mack four test. Are you prepared? Oh,
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Speaker 3: I'm prepared. Should we say it at the same time?
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Speaker 1: No?
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Speaker 3: Okay you first, I was eighty four percent. Machiavellian, I
20:53
Speaker 3: thought you'd be pretty high. No offense, I was seventy four. Wow, Ben,
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Speaker 3: you must really think I'm a monster.
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Speaker 1: Well again, for this whole episode, I'm the one who's
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Speaker 1: saying we shouldn't be so quick to judge that's true
21:05
Speaker 1: or call anybody a monster.
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Speaker 3: Now. To be fair, I answered slightly disagree quite a lot.
21:12
Speaker 3: I felt like it punished me a little unfairly because
21:14
Speaker 3: some of these questions were kind of broad and they
21:17
Speaker 3: didn't really have a hard yes or no answer, like
21:20
Speaker 3: you know, no, I would not kill a puppy. But also,
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Speaker 3: I don't really think that everyone is inherently good. Not
21:26
Speaker 3: only that makes me a bad person, I don't think
21:28
Speaker 3: everyone else is kind of a bad person.
21:30
Speaker 1: Sure, and there's another Okay, So there are two interesting
21:33
Speaker 1: things about this test that we should definitely point out. First,
21:38
Speaker 1: your results will probably change as if you take this
21:42
Speaker 1: multiple times, and those changes will likely depend upon your mood.
21:48
Speaker 1: So if you are feeling super warm and fuzzy and
21:51
Speaker 1: something really nice has just happened to you, Then you're
21:55
Speaker 1: going to be more likely to say that you think
21:58
Speaker 1: all people have some sort of goodness in them.
22:01
Speaker 3: Right, This is true. This is true. That's a very
22:03
Speaker 3: good point. And we have kind of missed the most
22:06
Speaker 3: important detail of all to prove whether or not our
22:09
Speaker 3: super producer Casey is as much of a monster as
22:12
Speaker 3: I accused him of being at the top of the show.
22:14
Speaker 1: That is true, super Producer, Casey, pegram moment has arrived,
22:18
Speaker 1: and we are very very curious to hear your results, sir.
22:23
Speaker 4: All right, Well, I'm actually currently finishing up the last
22:26
Speaker 4: few questions on that extended questionnaire, so I opted in
22:29
Speaker 4: as well as you Ben. That might give you a
22:32
Speaker 4: little bit of an indicator which direction we're heading in here.
22:34
Speaker 3: Do you feel good about your choice though, Casey, I.
22:37
Speaker 4: Was in a very mellow mood just now when I
22:39
Speaker 4: took this, so I'm probably gonna be more more of
22:42
Speaker 4: the live and let live hippie variety today.
22:45
Speaker 1: And those additional questions to paint the scene for everybody.
22:49
Speaker 1: Those additional questions are things that will help the researchers
22:52
Speaker 1: so they don't necessarily deal with Machiavelli and stuff. They're
22:56
Speaker 1: more like demographic questions. Do you know the deafnis to
23:00
Speaker 1: these works?
23:01
Speaker 3: Those don't affect your score though, No, You're just your
23:03
Speaker 3: score ends before the extra questions. And I just want
23:05
Speaker 3: to point out that hippies can be manipulative too, Casey,
23:08
Speaker 3: have you heard of the Manson family?
23:10
Speaker 1: Well, the extended questions are just to give a helping
23:14
Speaker 1: hand to those researchers furthering their work.
23:16
Speaker 3: I'm getting really worked up about this, you guys, Casey.
23:18
Speaker 4: I must know your score, all right, I've just found
23:21
Speaker 4: out seconds ago when I clicked continue.
23:23
Speaker 3: Can you put could you put a drum roll? In?
23:25
Speaker 4: Absolutely all right? And my score is fifty sixese.
23:34
Speaker 3: Man, Casey's the best one. He's the best one.
23:38
Speaker 4: I'm I'm on the low end of the curve. Actually,
23:40
Speaker 4: I'm like on the slope going up to the middle.
23:42
Speaker 3: I'm on the fat part. Yeah.
23:44
Speaker 1: The curve shows us that on aggregate, the largest amount
23:49
Speaker 1: is going to be just under seventy.
23:51
Speaker 3: It looks like, but don't I score points for feeling
23:54
Speaker 3: guilty that I scored so high?
23:56
Speaker 1: But do you really feel guilty or is it part
24:00
Speaker 1: of the part of the show. Because I could see
24:03
Speaker 1: how Machiavelli or Catilia might argue that it's smart to
24:06
Speaker 1: signal that. But I also don't think you should feel bad.
24:09
Speaker 3: I don't even know anymore.
24:11
Speaker 1: So well, so we pointed out that the test will
24:14
Speaker 1: probably change depending on your mood.
24:16
Speaker 3: Casey said he was an m mellow mood crap test.
24:19
Speaker 1: And additionally, if somebody is truly Machiavellian, Casey, then it's
24:26
Speaker 1: not hard to engineer a low score on this test.
24:32
Speaker 4: Casey, Oh, I like that absolutely well. I was kind
24:35
Speaker 4: of you know, I might have been leaning that way
24:37
Speaker 4: a little bit. So to be continued, the proof.
24:40
Speaker 3: Would be in the putting of your actions, sir.
24:45
Speaker 1: I did not mean that laugh to come out so sinister.
24:47
Speaker 3: See, none of us knows anymore who we are. We're
24:50
Speaker 3: all doubting and questioning ourselves because if this blasted internet test.
24:53
Speaker 1: Because we are old friends, I will make a confession
24:56
Speaker 1: to you, guys. I looked up the average beforehand and
25:00
Speaker 1: aimed for that.
25:01
Speaker 3: Wow, and I still got a little bit higher, you
25:04
Speaker 3: son of a son in law. Yes, is so?
25:07
Speaker 1: And so indeed, it just goes to show that these
25:15
Speaker 1: questions that we're still asking today as individuals, as businesses,
25:19
Speaker 1: as organizations, as governments still were relevant thousands and thousands
25:25
Speaker 1: of years ago and will likely be just as relevant
25:28
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of years from now.
25:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it turns out, no surprise, the Arthur Shastra
25:34
Speaker 3: has played a big role in the political identity and
25:39
Speaker 3: culture of India. It is considered a classic of diplomacy
25:44
Speaker 3: and there are quite a few universities and some diplomatic
25:47
Speaker 3: offices that have been named after the likely author Cotilia
25:52
Speaker 3: to celebrate this work.
25:54
Speaker 1: Right, this is a profoundly important book and if you
26:00
Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of it before this episode, and
26:03
Speaker 1: you happen to enjoy The Prince, we highly recommend you
26:06
Speaker 1: check this out again. It's free online. You can get
26:10
Speaker 1: a paperback copy pretty easily via Amazon or your favorite
26:14
Speaker 1: used bookstore.
26:15
Speaker 3: And speaking of The Prince, I just wanted to acknowledge
26:17
Speaker 3: that we are podcasting today the inaugural recording in our
26:22
Speaker 3: new studios at how Stuff Works HQ. You can picture
26:27
Speaker 3: kind of a giant shipping container in a room and
26:32
Speaker 3: Ben and I are inside of that at this lovely
26:34
Speaker 3: mahogany wood table with our new fancy microphones, and we
26:39
Speaker 3: have our own little headphone boxes and I'm sorry, I'm
26:42
Speaker 3: nerding out about it. I kind of set it up
26:44
Speaker 3: and it's the kind of stuff that excites me. But
26:46
Speaker 3: it's great. And Casey's out there on the outside through
26:49
Speaker 3: the window and he's got his own mic and got
26:52
Speaker 3: a cool Ikia China ball hanging from the ceiling, and
26:54
Speaker 3: I don't know. Well, the reason I said the Prince
26:56
Speaker 3: is because I think we're going to call this studio prince.
26:58
Speaker 1: Right, We've arrived, We're moving on up. This is this
27:03
Speaker 1: is a big step for us, and we've got to
27:06
Speaker 1: send some pictures out. This is the first studio I
27:08
Speaker 1: think we can all agree that we would just hang
27:11
Speaker 1: out in for funzies.
27:12
Speaker 3: It's right, it's very very comfy. And you know, we'll
27:15
Speaker 3: hop on the social media train soon and post some pictures.
27:18
Speaker 3: I know we have a Facebook group, now, don't we
27:20
Speaker 3: think the ridiculous historians? Right, Yes, that is correct.
27:23
Speaker 1: If you are inclined to Facebook, love things both historical
27:27
Speaker 1: and ridiculous, join us. You can see some stuff that
27:31
Speaker 1: may or may not have made it to the air,
27:33
Speaker 1: get a peek behind the scenes, and also hear from
27:36
Speaker 1: some of our peer podcast and.
27:39
Speaker 3: It's a fun place to share articles and maybe we
27:41
Speaker 3: can delve into for future episodes of the show. And
27:43
Speaker 3: if anyone feels inclined to be a moderator, if you're
27:47
Speaker 3: into that kind of thing, shoot us an email and
27:49
Speaker 3: we'll talk about it.
27:50
Speaker 1: And while you're on the internet, regardless of your results
27:54
Speaker 1: on the mock four quiz, feel free to drop by
27:58
Speaker 1: iTunes or your platform choice and leave us a review.
28:02
Speaker 1: Let us know how we're doing.
28:04
Speaker 3: It's okay if it's just to manipulate us into liking you.
28:06
Speaker 3: As long as it's positive, it will totally work. Absolutely,
28:10
Speaker 3: I can guarantee that.
28:11
Speaker 1: So this will conclude today's episode, but not our show.
28:14
Speaker 1: Joined us next time as we cover the killer marketing
28:18
Speaker 1: campaign behind Guy fowkx V for Vendetta. I just said
28:23
Speaker 1: the name of the movie. I don't know why, I
28:24
Speaker 1: just said that. I like the film though, Yeah, the
28:26
Speaker 1: comic is better. Yeah, the graphic novel is a fantastic greed.
28:31
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you know, I don't want
28:33
Speaker 1: us to be the people who are always saying the
28:36
Speaker 1: book is better than the movie, but in this case,
28:38
Speaker 1: I think it's true.
28:39
Speaker 3: Now what the episode is about, but we will dig
28:42
Speaker 3: into that fabled British figure and his bungled plot. So
28:49
Speaker 3: join us in the meantime.
28:50
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter, you can find us
28:52
Speaker 1: on Instagram, you can find us on our Facebook page,
28:56
Speaker 1: or you can write us a good old fashioned email
28:59
Speaker 1: with your reaction to the story of the Arthur Shastra.
29:02
Speaker 1: Have you read both this work and The Prince? If so,
29:05
Speaker 1: how would you rank them? How do you think they
29:08
Speaker 1: compare or contrast? Let us know you can write to
29:11
Speaker 1: us directly. We're ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com.
29:14
Speaker 3: So as always, thanks to our slightly less suffering and
29:18
Speaker 3: totally not evil unless you know he is, super producer
29:21
Speaker 3: Casey Pegram. Thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme.
29:25
Speaker 1: Also thanks to our regular contributor Laurie el Dove, the
29:30
Speaker 1: author of Ridiculous History Ancient India beat Machiavelli to the
29:34
Speaker 1: punch by one eight hundred years, And of course, most importantly,
29:39
Speaker 1: thanks to you for checking out the show.
29:42
Speaker 3: We can't wait to hear about your score. For more
29:51
Speaker 3: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
29:55
Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.