Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.279 'Collaboration: Therapy Show 2026 & Beyond' with Kate Williams, Sarah Catlow, Gary Benson

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Ep.279 'Collaboration: Therapy Show 2026 & Beyond' with Kate Williams, Sarah Catlow, Gary Benson · The STA Clinician Podcast

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You're listening to the STA Clinician Podcast, connecting clinicians across healthcare.
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And we're live. Welcome to the STA Clinician Podcast, formerly known for the
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last five years or so as the Sports Therapy Association Podcast.
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My name is Matt Phillips, creator of onchecklive.com. And as always,
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this episode has been recorded live on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube
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channel and Facebook page at eight o'clock UK time on a Tuesday.
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In this episode, 279, entitled Collaboration Therapy Show 2026 and Beyond,
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I'm going to be joined very shortly by my special guests, Kate Williams,
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Head of Education at the SST, which is the Society of Sports Therapists,
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Sarah Catlow, Chair of the STO, the Sports Therapies Organization,
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and Gary Benson, founder of the STA, the Sports Therapy Association.
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And together, we're going to be reflecting on what's in store at this year's
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therapy show, formerly known as Therapy Expo, which is taking place at the NEC
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Birmingham this November on Wednesday the 25th and Thursday the 26th.
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And also how through collaboration between our professional bodies,
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we can help move the sports therapy, sports massage therapy industry forwards and upwards.
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By no small coincidence, last week in episode 278 of the STA Clinician Podcast,
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my guest was Liam Richardson.
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Content manager of Therapy Show, who explained the reasons for the recent rebrand
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from Therapy Expo to Therapy Show,
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including a focus on better content and attendee experience,
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new practical business-focused sessions,
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a new advisory board and education committee, as well as improvements to theatre
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sizes, interactive spaces, networking plans, and how organisers are working
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to make the show more inclusive and engaging for first-time visitors and neurodivergent clinicians.
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It all sounded very promising. It's available on all popular podcast platforms
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and YouTube if you want to watch the video.
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But tonight we're going to have a little reflection and think and discuss how
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important is it therefore for sports therapists and sports massage therapists
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to actually attend this November, and how much can a conference like this help
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the sports therapy and sports massage therapy industry progress,
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and in what ways can we together collaborate, the SST, the STA, and the SDA to help this,
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progression. Questions that my guest tonight will be discussing.
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So without further ado, let's bring up Kate Williams, Head of Education at the
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SST, Sarah Catlow, Chair of the STO, and Gary Benson, Founder of the STA.
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Hello. Evening. So thank you so much, first of all, for joining this evening.
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Let's start with a little introduction, because obviously this is going out for YouTube.
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Welcome everybody who is joining us live. If you have joined us live,
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then you're welcome to leave comments.
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I will bring up your comments onto the screen. So for example,
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Nikki Mansfield has gone evening, with an exclamation mark.
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I thought I said no hitting babies. I'm glad I reread that.
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No hitting below the belt, says Glenn Murphy. Sir Glenn Murphy, MBE, welcome.
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Thank you for joining us. let's have a clean fight what are you talking about this
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is 2026 now get with the times glenn it's all love and
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zen as kate used the word which was lovely i've never heard
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that apply before to me but yeah so we're really
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looking forward to it and i really appreciate kate and sarah you giving up your
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time to join us um yeah so a little introduction for our listeners maybe of
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who you are where you are in the country and what your professional role entails
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can we start with you kate yeah hi thank you so much my name is kate williams
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i'm a graduate sports therapist and a Fellow of the Society of Sports Therapists.
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I work predominantly clinically within rugby union, international and international
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pathways, men's and women's programmes,
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and I'm Head of Education for the Society of Sports Therapists.
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And I'm in South Wales, if there's a delay.
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Fantastic. Thank you very much for that. And Sarah Kettler? Hi,
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I'm Sarah. I'm the Chair of the Sports Therapy Organisation.
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I'm also a Senior Lecturer. We're a lecturer in sports therapy at a university
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down in Plymouth, so I'm all the way down in Devon this evening.
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Fantastic. Thank you very much, Sarah. And Gary Benson.
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Yeah, I'm Gary. I'm the founder of the Sports Therapy Association.
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I've been representing members in various guises for over 18 years,
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been in the industry for a quarter of a century.
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Great. Thanks for that wake-up call to how old we are. Thank you,
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Gary. So, yeah, of course, essentially. Jeez.
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Right. So, for people who aren't aware, at Therapy Expo 2025 last year at the
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NEC Birmingham, for the first time ever, I believe, the SST,
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the STO, and the STA all shared the same stage for a couple of panel discussions.
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There was one called, What Does It Mean to Be a Sports Therapist?
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And there was another one, Should a Sports Therapist Diagnose?
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Leaving those topics to the side for the moment, I thought it'd be nice just
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to let our listeners know and appreciate that this is quite a significant moment
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in terms of collaboration for the sports therapy industry.
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Would you agree? Yeah, absolutely.
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I left Sports Therapy Expo last year just feeling so buoyant and positive about the future.
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It felt like a real cultural shift. And I know that our organizations have very
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different histories and different structures, But I felt like there was an overarching
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commitment to safe, effective and evidence-based sports therapy.
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And I think we showed a willingness to put our differences aside and focus on
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the really strong common ground that we all shared. So I felt like it was the
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start of something really, really promising. I don't know about you guys.
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I agree. I think it was the first real visible kind of united front that we've
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ever done. And I think that was such a big step because we're all fighting to
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push the profession of sports therapy forward, even though we're from different organizations.
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And I was really excited to be part of that debate. And I think we covered some
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amazing ground when we were discussing it at therapy expo therapy show.
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Fantastically so yeah i i agree oh yeah i think um historically that there has
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been the will of certain parties to come together but never getting us around
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the same table it was never achieved until until there was changes of personnel
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but yeah it was a really positive,
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experience for for me and there was
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lots of positive feedback and and the momentum after that
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with with our members wanting to know you know what was going on
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and and and how we're going to collaborate in the future so yeah
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the future's bright that's great yeah and
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I definitely felt the same thing there was other conversations we have with
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other people there from different organizations and there was hugs and
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and there were tears and it was beautiful moment and that was
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like oh November or December or January or probably yeah about
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four or five months ago and now we're kind of looking ahead at
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therapy expo or therapy show 2026 I
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don't want to put the butt in there yet because I'm just feeling so relaxed and warm and
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cuddly at the moment so we won't let's just talk about let's stay positive
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at the moment in terms of kind of
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you've already kind of alluded to it but some of the shared foundations in unity
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that we see between the sst the sto and the sta what do you see some of these
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shared foundations so would you like to start yeah i think you know we we all
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shout out about patient safety evidence-based practice that kate's already mentioned,
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such an important part of our profession.
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MSK focus, we're all that.
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We make decisions with it and obviously working with rehabilitation as well with patients.
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So I think we share the common competences that a sports therapist needs and should have.
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No kate would you agree yeah i think
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sarah's right i think it i think we all share the the kind
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of principles of safe msk care i think
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safe msk practice is at our heart and i think at
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the core of all of our organizations is an element of injury assessment
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some sort of treatment intervention and and
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rehabilitation and ultimately the goal of supporting our
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clients back to whatever it is they they
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want to be doing and gary for
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you you're nodding away there yeah i mean i
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agree wholeheartedly i think one of the hurdles that we
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have to face and overcome in in the
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future is that there isn't one set of
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competencies and if we look at the national occupational standards
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which is sector skills council held for sports
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therapy and for sports massage which which is slightly
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different the the invitations were sent
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out in 2007 to all stakeholders invitations were
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sent out in 2014 to all stakeholders to
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to come together to collaborate on producing a new set
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of competences now the sector skills occupational standards the nos they inform
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the curriculum and the curricular input curriculum informs the the syllabus
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that that's taught around the various education establishments and at the moment
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and And this is not being disrespectful to anybody at all.
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But if you look at some of the degree programs, some are accredited,
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some are not accredited.
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Some are accredited by X, Y and Z and some are accredited by A, B and C.
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But, you know, you can go to one university and it's heavily weighted towards
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strength and conditioning.
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You can go to another university, it's heavily weighted towards soft tissue or sports trauma.
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So unless we get some kind of parity where it's at a degree is a degree is a
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degree, then we're always going to have these differences in scopes of practice.
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I think when you write a degree in sports therapy, we all have the same common
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competences there and we all run off educational kind of policy,
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educational requirements when we get accredited.
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But it's down to the university where their specialisms are as well.
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So one university might be heavily into S&C and what, you know,
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so, but I think all degrees do teach the same common competences across all
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sports therapy programmes.
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Yeah, I think we've always thought about it, and this probably comes from Professor
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Graham Smith's kind of legacy, is that we're building Mini Coopers.
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And so we're simply a factory for Mini Coopers, but you might produce one that's
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kind of got a souped up engine and a spoiler, whereas I might be making more
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of a countryman with bigger boot space or whatever it is.
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So there's an element of subtle differences and unique selling points about our degree.
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But actually, at the core of it, we're producing mini coopers at the end of the day.
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Nice, nice allergy. I like that. I might be seeing that. One of the things we
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talked about at Therapy Expo last year, and I don't want to get into the kind
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of yes, no debate of it, is can a sports therapist diagnose?
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Nose, but I'm interested, and we've kind of already kind of mentioned this already,
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but what type of clinical decisions, therefore, in your opinions,
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are sports therapists, somebody who uses that name, what are they competent
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to make and what are they not competent to make?
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It's an interesting point with the word diagnosis though, because it has,
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there's three different forms of diagnosis.
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So you have your medical doctor's diagnosis with pathologies and imaging,
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which obviously a sports therapist can't do.
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But you have your working diagnosis, your clinical impression.
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And that's a form of diagnosis because they're taking subjective,
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objective, clearing red flags.
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Also, they do functional movement.
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That's a form of another form of diagnosis. So I think that they can.
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And it's just the scope of the language that we use because they're doing it every day.
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I think that's my fault. I'm going to take the blame for that because when we
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suggested the debate, I think we asked the wrong question. And I think that
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was based on some incorrect assumptions on my part.
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And Sarah's highlighted them that we all were on a common ground about this.
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We're very clear this is not a medical diagnosis. This is a working hypothesis.
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So I think some of the language we could probably clarify and share between us for sure.
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And I think you're right, Matt. I think it's about reframing that as a question
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and talking about instead of can a sports therapist diagnose,
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can we shift towards what types of clinical decisions are being made?
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Are we as sports therapists trained and competent to make?
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And I think kind of, I think we all agree on, you know, therapists should work
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within their trained, within their training and patient safety comes first.
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So even at a very simple level, I think we all agree that we should be screening
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for red flags and making sure our patients are suitable for MSK treatment.
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So yeah, I take the blame for the incorrect questioning there, actually. Sorry.
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It's very, very big of you to do that. Gary, what do you think about,
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does this make sense that it is what type of diagnosis we're talking about and
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it needs to be, it's not necessarily black and white?
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Well it's never going to be black and white unfortunately
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we give guidance you know
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in our code of ethics and professionalism not
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to diagnose we use different language as
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has been mentioned before about you know clinical reasoning
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clinical impressions i think person my
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personal opinion is with with a diagnosis sometimes it
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can be you know the end game for somebody
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sometimes it's it's all encompassing and and
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sometimes you know without the necessary experience
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and and and i don't mean sort of sports therapy experience but experience as
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a therapist you know without those building that therapeutic relationship sometimes
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you know giving a diagnosis can come too early for me so it will be a topic
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for discussion and as long as i'm here i'm sure.
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I wonder whether, I mean, part of the problem of this is, and the recommendation
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not to use the word is because unfortunately.
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Because sports, anyone can pretty much use the term sports therapist and there's
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arguments for and against whether we can or should or could have statutory regulation of the title.
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But I'm wondering, I'm interested in what you guys think we could do to try
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and reduce the prevalence of people who shouldn't technically be calling themselves
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sports therapists because they don't have the appropriate training.
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Maybe there's something we could do that collectively and collaborating well
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i'd start on that if i may then matt because what we do with
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the sga because we have members at different levels some people
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have taken and we're going back into the
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90s where there might have been a qualification with the
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international institute of sports therapy there might
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have been a qualification management and treatment of
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footballing injuries for example now all
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of those competencies are similar to the degree competencies
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today and and and they are sports
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therapists but what we do is we issue a
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membership category and a membership certificate based
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on the level of qualification so if somebody's got a foundation degree it will
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say they've got a foundation degree somebody's got a degree it will say they've
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got a degree somebody's got an advanced diploma or a higher national diploma
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it will state that but we also give guidance on the title that they use and
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and And if I see one of my members who might have a level three,
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four, and five soft tissue qualification, advertising sports therapy, then I just get in touch.
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I say, you know, do you understand the differences?
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Do you understand the 14 competencies, which were the outdated NOS versus the
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two competencies in soft tissue therapy?
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So I have that chat and I like to think that I'm making my members accountable
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for using correct titles.
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I think I really feel like this is a really strong talking point for us.
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And I think across the sector, we're all grappling with the issue of people
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using the title of sports therapist without, in some cases, any accredited or
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approved training whatsoever.
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So I don't think I don't feel like this should be about competition between,
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you know, are you a member of who?
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I think it's about public safety and protecting the reputation of the profession.
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And I feel it's a joint priority probably for all of us.
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And maybe kind of something for future collaboration is some sort of cross body working group here.
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And just to kind of throw in here, I do see some private clients and on a personal
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kind of anecdote level, I'm often the first graduate sports therapist that they
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see because they've kind of failed other traditional routes.
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And they come to see me having done no due diligence whatsoever.
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They've done no background checks on who I am.
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They don't know if I've got insurance to practice or whatever, but they're desperate.
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They're desperately looking for someone who will help. And in that regard,
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they're really vulnerable.
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And I feel like probably better public education is needed.
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And I think that kind of circles back around to scope aligned, safe MSK practice.
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But I think that's certainly an area for collaboration for all of us.
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Yeah, I completely agree with you. is educating the public. I mean,
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if you ask somebody, what is the sports therapist? You're going to get about 25 different answers.
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So it's actually educating the public what we can do and what we can't do to make it clear.
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And I think that's a great idea to come together and do a collaboration over it as well.
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Sounds very good because it is, I see it so often we hear it and we get emails
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from members and see people talking about it where they spend so long worrying
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about the fact they're not a physio and they probably let that,
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the clients and patients see that. They might even mention it sometimes, oh, I'm not a physio.
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Maybe I should send you to a physio and it limits them, doesn't it?
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And unfortunately, and so we need to somehow, yeah, make, try and help sports
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therapists feel more proud of what they are and what they can do and support
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them and then convey a more powerful image to the rest of the,
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yeah, to the public, like you say.
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Gary anything to add to that no not at this point Matt no I think that was covered very well,
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I think you you in the past since I've
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known you have been very quick on warning people on social
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media who too tend to slip in physio into their web
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page or because actually that can be that can be prosecuted for
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it but regardless of the fact that it you can be prosecuted for
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it just shouldn't be something that sports therapists feel
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the need to do well no i
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mean physio is not a protected title physiotherapist
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and physiotherapy are i've had one today actually
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matt you know a new member introduced themselves as physio for a sports team
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because that's how they're generically termed at the sports team it doesn't
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matter where you wear your sports therapist jacket you know you are seen and
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physiotherapy physio has become a verb it's what we do to people rather than rather than the title.
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I suppose that's a good place to start, isn't it? Just sports therapists correcting
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people saying, no, I'm a sports therapist. Look, what's this on my back?
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Don't go with your physio. Change that on your website. It doesn't make any difference.
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I may even do a better job than what you're used to seeing from your last physio or whatever.
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But yeah, a bit of confidence. I love the idea of it being, it might be something
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which I don't know what the plans are.
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I remember last week I said to Lim, we need to sort something out to continue.
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I think therapy show could be quite a powerful stage to help reach a lot of
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people for all its faults. there are about 4,000 or maybe more attendees coming through.
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So if we can do something like this and educate people, it might be quite a good platform.
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Would you agree Therapy Show is a place where we could do this and continue the conversation?
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I've suggested that we have a continuation. I spoke to Charlotte straight after
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last year's event and said, if we don't keep this momentum going,
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then we're scoring an own goal.
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We need these panel discussions. We need to be seen by our members,
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by the public, by those people who are in the profession who are not,
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from an accredited degree, who are not members of an association or organisation,
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they're the people really who are the ones who,
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I'm not blaming them for all of the problems, but they're the ones more likely
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to call themselves a sports therapist when they haven't got the requisite qualification,
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they're more likely to work outside of the scope of practice,
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they're more likely to not recognise the red flags because they're not keeping
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up to date as the evidence information changes.
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So we can only you know, police, you know, we are, you know,
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I've said this before, you know, our only, our only power is to revoke a membership.
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We can't do anything more than that.
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We have spoken in our collaboration meetings about information sharing and there
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are lots of, lots of hurdles to, to overcome with that.
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But, you know, the people who are our members, the people who are SST members
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and STO members, they're getting good quality information.
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I think that's less than half of the population of
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soft tissue therapists and sports therapists out there who is
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policing the others and the answer is that they're not
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yeah that's a really interesting point i'm
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interested to hear from sarah and kate what for
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our listeners and we're i'm proud to say we're up to about three and a half
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thousand downloads now and it's which is really cool but i wonder if there's
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listeners out there who at the moment don't belong to a professional body which
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there's no legal requirement to do that what would you say is is one of the
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main values of being a member of professional body so.
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If I can just jump in I think professional bodies exist to protect
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the public and also support practitioners so if I can use
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the analogy of kind of learning to drive when we
21:13
learn to drive where even if we're taught correctly when you get your license
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you know if you go and drive without oversight you're going to pick up bad habits
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and there's no one to kind of steer you back to the center and I think really
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that's that's what a professional body does in that I think membership gives you a very clear scope.
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It gives you recognized standards of proficiency.
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You're going over and above in that you're signing up to a very robust code of conduct.
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There are fitness to practice and complaints procedures for that.
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They offer an insurance that is comprehensive and generally reflects your scope of practice.
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So I think as a membership, you know, there are lots of benefits to it.
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And we actively advocate for us as a profession. So, but I agree with Gary.
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I mean, our estimates are that there's somewhere between five and 6,000 therapists
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working without professional body membership.
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And probably that's the same as all of us combined.
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Our memberships, it's probably around 6,000.
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I think probably 10,000 between us is a fair estimate.
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And I would say, yeah, we probably only make up half, half of us as a group across the UK.
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Interesting point. Wow, that makes it quite clear what our job or work is to
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do now. I guess it's quite a clear goal.
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I think really highlights what we can do collectively as well,
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because the fact we're doing stuff like that, we're not kind of,
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because in the past, I think there was a danger like decade ago or so and more
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of people seeing us as like competing with each other.
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And therefore, it looks like we're kind of like Starbucks and Costa trying to
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come here, come here, we do this, we do this.
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When really the way what I'm hearing today is the
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message is one we're looking after the public and two we're
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just supporting the industry join who you want to whatever works for
23:02
you one might offer something that would you agree with that Sarah you're nodding
23:05
away yeah I agree with that you know becoming a
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member of whatever professional organization just shows
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you're accountable for something bigger as well than just
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yourself so you know I agree with Kate we you follow
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standards you've got fitness to practice you're protected
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in in kind of a membership organization as well
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you have that support you know we're having a
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big kind of influx of graduates who are just
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you know just finishing their degree or their diplomas
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or their you know their courses and it's offering them
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support going into that real world of sports therapy as well which is really
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important things that they miss with you know gary's pointed out with marketing
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are they marketing themselves correctly we give them advice on that you know
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and being you know getting the correct insurance and how they, you know.
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Selling themselves and being proud to be a sports therapist. So it's important.
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You're quite right. We all have
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very, very similar things within our membership kind of organizations.
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And it is up to the public who they want to join, who they feel that they align to.
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And we're not in competition with each other.
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If anything, it fragments the workforce even further.
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So if you think about us as like a trivial pursuit pie, you know,
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with the different wedges in it, you've got SST, STO and STL.
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On kind of one side, but probably the other half of that pie are non-affiliated practitioners.
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And then I think that in turn lowers employer confidence because you go to advert,
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you don't really know what you're going to get.
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If you're going to get STO, STA, SST or none of the above.
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And I think it increases scepticism from other MSK professions about who we
24:44
are as a professional identity because you don't know what you're going to get.
24:48
And it's just, it's really messy.
24:50
And also some job job adverts some of them will
24:52
say sst or some of them will have all three of
24:56
us there or just two of them and again it's confusing
24:59
because the public aren't educated in what we do and you know someone will look
25:03
at that job ad and go well i'm not a member of that organization so i can't
25:07
apply for that or will that restrict me getting that job or i'm going to apply
25:12
for that temporarily to get me the job and then as soon as it's up for renewal
25:15
i'm going to let it lapse because I don't need it once I'm in the door.
25:20
Yes. But, you know, I challenge, if I see a job that says you have to be an
25:25
SST member, then I would challenge that.
25:28
I would challenge the employer on that policy because it's discriminatory.
25:32
Because, you know, we are, you know, like you don't, we are different to the
25:37
STO and the SST because we don't want education programs.
25:41
So if anybody wants to join us, we haven't got that captive audience where we
25:46
can go into a university or a college environment and say,
25:48
you know we're here to represent you and support you through
25:51
your you know your student years and then on into
25:54
your practitioner years we don't have any of that so
25:57
anybody who wants to join us has to do their due diligence
26:00
has to you know find us on social media has to
26:02
ring me up use our contact form because i
26:05
think that you know
26:08
we are inclusive you know we we have
26:11
graduate sports rehabilitators we've got a growing number of physios
26:14
joining us who are disenchanted with the physio route
26:17
at the moment and they want to be more hands-on therapists so
26:20
that you know I'm concerned with supporting you know my members and providing
26:26
information to the wider industry I'm not that bothered about the education
26:31
programs I'm not bothered about going into universities and things we have a
26:34
support model and that suits us and it suits our members so that's our strength I think.
26:40
Fantastic. I want to bring up this slide, which you looked at last week.
26:44
I showed it to Liam because I think it tells some interesting,
26:47
if you listen to the podcast, you're not gonna be able to see this slide,
26:49
but basically it was, it was on a PDF that's supplied as part of the sales team for therapy show.
26:55
And it just kind of highlights in case there's listeners out there who were
26:59
worried by the advisory board being full of physios, therapy show are very aware
27:04
that they've got data, huge amounts of data.
27:08
One thing they're good at is collecting data and 42% of the attendees in 2025
27:12
were physiotherapists, which means there was more non-physios than there were
27:15
physios, which I think is a fantastic,
27:18
one, to kind of give confidence to the non-physios thinking,
27:22
I'm not going to go to therapy show because it's all about physios.
27:24
And two, just to show that there's a really good presence. Sports therapists
27:29
was 18% out of all the people there.
27:32
Sports massage therapists was 7%. So it really, I feel, in other.
27:37
Benefit of going to therapy shows you are going to mix with your
27:40
fellow peers and colleagues and you're going to be represented so
27:43
which brings can i just say that that that
27:47
data didn't match the data that we collected from our
27:51
previous you know when we had our theaters and and we
27:53
collated data on people who attended the theaters that's not
27:57
representative of what we found and and a lot of
28:00
you know a lot of attendees that we spoke to last
28:03
year occupational therapists but obviously this year it's separate
28:06
you know because occupational therapists could just just walk
28:09
the halls you know they could come across and they couldn't go into
28:12
the lecture theaters but they could access the rest of the expo
28:15
so when you say our theaters you mean when we had the sta theaters
28:18
what do you mean is more physios or less physios even
28:21
more no when we first started if
28:24
we if we go back far enough then then around about
28:27
65 percent of people who attended our talks were soft
28:30
tissue therapists and sports therapists as the
28:32
podcast gained momentum we definitely saw
28:36
a shift in the amount of allied health professions who were coming to our theater
28:40
to get their information but generally speaking i know that people come and
28:45
see us that they're more likely to be a soft tissue therapist or a sports therapist
28:48
but predominantly the people who came to our talks initially were of the soft
28:54
tissue or sports therapy denomination.
28:57
I think we're nice to move towards today i think we've i
29:00
think things show that moving towards the day we're gonna there's gonna be we're just
29:03
gonna be healthcare professionals because ultimately when you're looking at
29:06
the patient there's gonna in many cases there's gonna be maybe at least two
29:10
or three or four different professionals with different skills that are going
29:12
to help that person particularly as a chronic issue so when there are meetings
29:15
like this i think the days hopefully are numbered when it's divided up to physios
29:19
osteos chiros because ultimately,
29:21
A lot of the stuff we're doing is similar in the sense of sharing and checking
29:25
if this fits into our scope of practice, if not recommended to somebody else
29:29
and signposting and stuff.
29:30
But I'm curious for all of you then, therefore...
29:35
With your wonderful loved members, this is where it could turn a little bit.
29:39
If one of them came up to you, I'm watching Kate Williams' face.
29:41
If one of them came up to you tomorrow and said, Sarah or Gary or Kate,
29:45
I've been thinking about a therapy show this year. Should I go along?
29:49
What would your answer be? It doesn't have to be yes or no, by the way, but whatever you feel.
29:54
I'm happy to start. Go on. Yeah. I would say go.
30:01
You will always regret the things you don't do more than the
30:04
things you do do and and therapy show gives
30:08
you a chance to network you know if if
30:11
kate's there and i'm there and sarah's there make us accountable come over and
30:15
speak to us and ask us what we do to represent the industry ask us what we're
30:19
doing to to move the industry forwards you know make us accountable i introduced
30:25
two members who'd never met last year they were the first two at the stand and i introduced them
30:30
They're now friends, they keep in contact, they become a support network for each other.
30:34
You know, those things you will get when you attend these types of events.
30:38
I don't mind whether you go to the talks, whether you just go around and speak
30:43
to the exhibitors, but challenge yourself, you know, go and see somebody who
30:48
you don't like and really challenge your own biases.
30:52
Because sometimes that will either say, oh, actually, I'm going to give that
30:56
person another chance now because they were talking actual common sense.
30:59
Sometimes when we see a snippet of something on social media that's all it is
31:03
it's taken out of context this is a place especially with the meet the speaker
31:07
lounge which is a lot bigger this year i'm told you can go and you can have
31:11
conversations with the speakers you can make them accountable,
31:15
and that's the only place in the country at the moment that you can do it.
31:19
Thank you, Gary. Kate? Sorry, I'm going to be the grumpy old woman in the room, I think.
31:24
But I'm still really unsure where I see our profession represented this year.
31:31
And I know it's really early and I really appreciate Liam coming on the show
31:35
and talking so honestly about it last week.
31:37
But at the moment, as the SST, we are uncommitted, though we are going to have
31:41
discussions with them and I'll probably soften and come round.
31:44
But I watched the show last week, actually, and I thought the questions from
31:48
your viewers were spot on.
31:50
And I'm not really sure that they were answered fully.
31:53
I really like the intent of having two groups, an advisory and an education
31:58
group to balance and test each other.
32:01
I really like that. But at the moment, it doesn't feel very equal.
32:04
It doesn't feel like an equal setup at the moment. One appears to be really
32:07
formed and confirmed and kind of forging ahead.
32:11
And then the other one is still sort of TBC still
32:14
feels like it's under construction and I think it's currently 12 versus
32:17
3 on a head count and I think ideally both
32:20
groups would have been formed at the same time and
32:23
at least kind of co-announced but my concern
32:26
I think is that we're probably going to come up with some great ideas for talks
32:32
and themes and things like that but I feel like the advisory panel may already
32:36
have the steer on that they might have filled some of those slots It certainly
32:40
sounded like they've got a lot of speakers lined up.
32:44
Well ahead of any opportunity for the education panel to kind of fully come together and comment.
32:50
And just going back to the slide about the breakdown, another grumpy old woman comment here,
32:55
it just feels very divisive in that the advisory panel is almost all physio
33:01
and nothing against them because there are some amazing therapists and amazing
33:04
educators in there and I really value them immensely.
33:08
But it feels like the education panel is a bit of an overflow car park for any
33:13
other profession that's just kind of cobbled together and I just don't think
33:16
it's very useful to drive that wedge between MSK practitioners and I'm sure it's wholly.
33:22
Unintentional and they haven't meant to do this at all
33:25
but I appreciate that I'm kind of still working
33:28
through my frustrations about the way the way it was
33:31
announced and Matt I'm going to come around to feeling more zen about
33:33
it just just like you but
33:36
I think when it comes to advising our members at
33:40
the moment it just feels a bit too early and like you mentioned
33:42
last week on the podcast on the webinar it's really frustrating because the
33:45
good early early bird offers are on now but
33:49
it also nobody's really been announced yet so whilst
33:52
Gary I agree that is a great place to network and meet
33:56
people and come and hold us to account and everything you know
33:59
am I really going to take two days out of clinic which might
34:02
be an unpaid time offer it might be part manual will
34:05
leave and it is expensive to go
34:08
and just you know meet some new friends and and do
34:11
some networking or are there other places for
34:14
me to do that because I'm probably gonna soften sorry
34:18
that was a very long answer no I think that's really honest and important and
34:23
they need to hear that I know they will listen to this and I think yeah I think
34:27
they're definitely I think we'd all agree they made some mistakes in releasing
34:30
that panel so quickly and so polished and all the photos and speaker things.
34:34
And it was so put out there. And then it was like as a follow-up.
34:37
Oh, and also a month later after showing all of these one by one,
34:41
we've also got the education committee.
34:42
Anyway, moving on. And it was kind of, yeah, they made a mistake.
34:46
But it's true, yeah. No, I appreciate that honesty. It's really important they
34:49
hear that because, yeah, they need to think about what they've done and make
34:52
sure they don't do similar things again.
34:54
Sarah, what do you feel? Yeah, the SEO haven't committed yet.
34:58
Obviously, we've been not involved with any of the information that came out,
35:02
so we haven't had any correspondence from them at all.
35:07
So that's, you know, so as an organization where, you know, we're not 100% sure,
35:12
I suppose, the same with Kate, you know, where we're going to go and what we're going to do.
35:16
But if a member asks me, you know, it is a great experience.
35:20
We all know how expensive it is to go to conferences and things like this.
35:25
And at the minute, it's an extremely good price, especially if you live up near there.
35:30
You know, it's great networking. There's loads of different stuff going on.
35:33
There's loads of different people to speak to and everything like that.
35:37
But again, as an organization, we're not 100% sure yet if we're going to be there or not.
35:42
Matt, can I just comment on the price point, please? with
35:46
with this year's price point and it's something that we've been saying for
35:48
the last 10 years we you know
35:51
there was an introduction last year of the of the one day ticket
35:54
i think what the this year's price point has
35:57
done has made people say well actually at that price i
36:01
can afford to have one day out of clinic and i can
36:03
go i'm not going to have the expense because all the
36:06
hotel accommodation is really expensive travel is
36:09
obviously really expensive and it's going to get more so given the state of
36:12
the world at the moment but for 49 quid plus vat i think it's a no-brainer we
36:19
will be going you know i've committed already to go and i will review it after
36:26
this year as i do every year.
36:29
I'm glad. I'm glad you guys are saying this because it's, I can imagine on Monday
36:33
once they hear this, there's going to be a, hopefully the meeting that should
36:35
have happened a while ago.
36:36
I meant to talk about it because their strength is multidisciplinary practice.
36:40
And even the physios they've got on that list for having, most of them have been on this show.
36:45
In fact, most of them I think were introduced to therapy show by a non-allied
36:48
health professional organization.
36:49
So it's kind of like, and I know they're all very big promoters of multidisciplinary practice.
36:54
So it's kind of, yeah, a trick was missed there, therapy show people.
36:58
And you You can see the disgruntled people who are not very happy about it,
37:03
but I'm sure you'll do your best. Can we just add, though, that normally this
37:06
information doesn't come out until June.
37:09
Yeah. May or June. I mean, that was Liam's head. They were ahead of the curve. Yeah. Yeah.
37:15
But it's, yeah, I don't know.
37:18
It wasn't a very good organization, was it? I don't know. Anyway, let's not dwell on that.
37:21
So it's interesting.
37:25
I'm hearing a lot. What I am loving about this is I'm hearing a lot of joint
37:28
messaging from the three of you, which I think is really healthy.
37:31
And it shows the benefit of collaboration. And I'm going to chase up Liam and
37:36
the team and just say, right, you know, when's this going to be?
37:40
Let's start telling people when this and what the title is going to be and blah,
37:42
blah, blah. because I think last week, I mean, also people who are part of the
37:47
neurodivergent MSK community Facebook group will know that I'm working alongside
37:52
Therapy Expert to try and improve that.
37:54
And we've already got a panel debate on that to raise awareness for either if
37:58
you're a neurodivergent clinician or you're working with neurodivergent patients.
38:01
So that's sorted. So things can be sorted, but I think we just need to get on
38:04
top of it and kind of push our way a little bit and get things sorted out.
38:08
But Sarah, I think last week said, you know, I need to know now about what's happening.
38:13
Otherwise I'm not going to buy my ticket, you know, because it is 49 pounds
38:16
was very cheap, but it is two days out of clinic. It's to travel up there.
38:20
It's where you're going to stay.
38:21
And there's also the, what's the experience going to be like there?
38:23
For a lot of people, it's not a fantastic experience. It's noisy.
38:27
It's smelly. It's so many people there. It's stressful.
38:29
So yeah, we need to get a little bit more information of what they're going
38:32
to provide. Let's have a look at some questions on here. Nikki Mansfield has said.
38:37
So not, all PAs are definitely not the same.
38:41
I wasn't even aware of a thing called a scope of practice, let alone what mine
38:44
was until I got involved with the STA 10 years after I qualified for another well-known PA.
38:48
Yes, you need to look in and see. And I think the good thing about the SST and
38:52
the STA and the STA is you can get an idea of what it's all about from the websites.
38:55
You know, they've all got loads of information out there and people you can
38:58
contact, for example, the people on the podcast tonight.
39:01
Sarah Jones says, Nikki, do you think that also comes down to the training providers?
39:05
When I qualified nine years ago, I was very clear on my SOP from the training on my course.
39:10
Fantastic. We've got people talking out there. Let's just continue to listen
39:12
to their conversation, shall we? Sarah says, absolutely.
39:15
I was trained by a provider that ran its own PA. You know who it is.
39:18
Oof, interest is like EastEnders. And I feel extremely let down by them risking
39:22
client safety for the sake of greediness for their annual PA subs.
39:25
Right, we'll let these two continue that conversation in the back shadows.
39:27
It does. It's a nice segue onto something I wanted to ask you through as well.
39:31
And there is a problem out there of lack of standardization on training,
39:35
whether it's vocational or even like you've mentioned already in different
39:37
degrees around the country you're going to get different weights on different
39:40
topics what do you think again maybe collaboratively or
39:43
things you're already doing what can we do to try and support high
39:47
quality education for sports therapy whether it
39:50
is like i say vocational or graduate pathways i think
39:53
we really need a standard of education so at
39:56
different levels so not just degree so this is what
39:59
you must achieve at these different levels to keep it
40:02
consistent you know to have the quality of
40:05
being a sports therapist because it's not really out there right now
40:08
so I'm being accountable so you know when
40:11
kind of people want to run their own courses and they apply to us obviously
40:16
I have a lot of quality assurance and accreditation background and we go through
40:21
each course with a fine tooth comb does it hit this does it do this and then
40:25
we obviously offer support to help them get up to the correct standards.
40:29
So it is having those educational competences for each level out there, I think.
40:37
I think external scrutiny, Matt, is vitally important.
40:41
I mean, we don't run education programs, as I've mentioned before.
40:46
So that gives us a unique independence.
40:48
And we've touched on this in some of our podcasts before.
40:51
There is something called unconscious bias. Now, if Nicky trained with a training
40:57
provider, was assessed by the training provider.
41:01
Externally scrutinized by a professional association external scrutinizer,
41:08
and they're all incestuously linked, where is the external scrutiny in that process?
41:14
And so i think it's a conflict of interest sometimes
41:18
and you know and i'm not discounting what what sarah
41:21
says but you've only got to go on to on to social
41:24
media every day and see providers of
41:27
very short courses claiming accreditation
41:30
to professional associations or you
41:34
know we have level four courses been running in four
41:37
days are you four days face to face they're claiming
41:40
accreditation so the whole the whole idea
41:43
of accreditation whilst extremely valuable
41:46
has become a commercial entity where
41:50
providers are seeking to add value to their course in exchange for financial
41:54
payment i don't think that the level of external scrutiny there should be if
41:59
somebody comes to us for accreditation we use an external third party scrutineer
42:06
who checks all of policies,
42:07
procedures, you know, tutor qualifications.
42:11
Assessor qualifications, etc.
42:12
And they come to me for advice on the occupational context.
42:16
But it's a wholly exclusive third party arrangement so that I can't be accused
42:23
as I've accused other people of, oh, well, you know, John's your mate.
42:27
That's why you that's why you accredit his course.
42:30
Anybody wants our accreditation. They have to go through a rigorous process.
42:36
I think from our perspective, I think we're stronger when we kind of collectively
42:42
support robust education outcomes across a full spectrum from vocational pathways,
42:47
national occupational standards, right the way through to graduate level degrees.
42:50
I think Sarah's right. What matters most is the clarity of competencies,
42:54
the clear CPD expectations, and an education that kind of demonstrates a commitment
42:59
really to reflective, patient-centered, evidence-based practice.
43:04
I think as professional bodies, we all share a goal of ensuring that anybody
43:10
out there calling themselves a sports therapist is safe and capable and supported,
43:14
whatever their initial training route.
43:16
So again, I see this as a potential area for collaboration more than anything.
43:23
Do you think in an ideal world, if you could do it, and obviously it's not that
43:26
easy, that all courses would, I can't say by law, but would be respected more
43:31
and the public would understand more if they were always externally regulated?
43:37
I don't know who this governing body would be, but that's the problem.
43:40
But is that an ideal? Would that be an ideal when it's not the person who's
43:43
connected with it regulating?
43:45
It's somebody from the outside who's going to standardize the way they do regulate courses?
43:48
You could do that the way we acrylic degrees we
43:52
obviously have our internal panel and then
43:55
we have an external that will come in and question us
43:58
about our degrees so especially when we're writing
44:00
it within sports therapy so you always have that outside kind
44:03
of input and yeah maybe maybe we
44:06
need someone to set up an external aspect
44:09
to make sure there is no bias but
44:12
at the minute it doesn't happened is that you know only
44:15
at certain levels so maybe that's
44:18
something to think about and collaborate with i mean
44:21
there is a there is a prevalence you use you go on anybody's website
44:24
any training provider's website and and they will they
44:27
will use language like externally
44:30
accredited you know off call regulated
44:34
but they might not
44:36
be off call regulated a qualification might be
44:39
but they're only the delivery partner in this so unless we have a you know an
44:46
industry agreed an industry-wide set of national occupational standards which
44:51
informs the curriculum and they have a shelf life for five years a one-year
44:56
consultation period either end,
44:58
unless we have that then how are we going to get a standard.
45:04
I don't think there's an answer to that yet. No, it's something that I think, yeah.
45:09
So it's easy at the moment. It seems to be regulated better with degrees.
45:15
Graduate courses and stuff.
45:16
It's the vocational stuff which can be very out there and kind of part of the problem.
45:22
But like I said, there are non-accredited degrees
45:26
running and I genuinely feel for those
45:29
students who've just spent £9,500 a year
45:32
who find out often right at the end end of their degree that
45:35
there's no kind of eligibility to
45:39
join you know a designated professional body
45:43
and they're really left out on a bit of a limb on their
45:45
own and the good ones like gary mentioned will go
45:48
and do do their homework and will find a home but
45:52
a lot of them just just go out there and either just
45:55
change their mind or they start to practice you know
45:58
without that steer of a professional body behind them
46:02
so and the danger is that if
46:05
it's if it is an unaccredited degree
46:08
then nobody has policed that
46:11
nobody's checked what's being taught so these
46:14
people might be getting a bit of a bum steer on the degree or their education
46:19
program as kate mentioned not have a home to go to with regards to professional
46:24
associations and they're left out there and it's a little bit like the Wild
46:29
West I assume out there with no support, with no guidance and.
46:34
Very much so I think and also as parents that are
46:37
going to probably fund their child going to do this degree at university
46:40
they look for accredited programs now you
46:44
know and speaking to a lot of parents who are like what does this
46:47
accreditation mean what does this mean so they're becoming
46:50
more savvy with maybe degree programs and
46:53
sports therapy that are accredited but you've
46:56
got you've always got the issue is if they only go to non-accredited degrees
46:59
at no point do they say oh and by the way we're not accredited so it takes them
47:04
arriving at a good accredited program for them to find out that there is a thing
47:08
called accreditation because we shout about that i suppose at our open days
47:12
when we're going out to prospective students about how we're accredited and
47:17
what it means yeah you're quite right yeah.
47:20
So Magic Brush, how could you get rid of any degrees and courses that aren't
47:25
accredited by an external verifier? What would be the solution?
47:29
You can't, because anybody can, you know, you and I could set up a hairdressing
47:34
course tomorrow, Matt, and go to one of the accrediting bodies and have it set
47:39
at level six. We'd have to prove competency for a year, and then we could be
47:42
teaching hairdressers this time next year.
47:45
And that's the danger. and you know
47:48
not being disrespectful but if you know sarah's teaching
47:51
on a course and she's the chair of the sto and
47:55
and she said she's shouting about the accreditation where is
47:59
it or is there a potential conflict of interest i'm not saying
48:01
there is but is there you know would it be better if it
48:05
was if sarah didn't have both of those roles and
48:08
the danger there is that the people like us who are passionate about
48:11
the industry we take on these roles because we
48:14
see that we can make a difference and then there could be
48:17
criticism leveled at us you know criticism all of
48:20
the time because i don't think
48:23
there is because i don't actually accredit my own degree
48:26
within the sto so there's no bias there and also i have an internal panel and
48:32
an external panel from when we write the degree so i don't actually accredit
48:36
my own degree program who's the external i'm just interested because do that
48:41
and do they is that their profession could Could you recommend them to do other degrees as well?
48:47
Every university will put out adverts for external individuals for either panels
48:53
or for their external examiner, which will then check their marking and whatever they do.
48:59
And it's normally an academic from another university. So mine is actually from
49:03
the University of Teesside.
49:05
I hope that's right. I'm sure she'll tell me if that's wrong. for that.
49:09
And again, I externally moderate a university up in Scotland. So.
49:15
Yeah, it's interesting because I remember we had the discussion a while back
49:18
with Anna-Marie Matsieri and we're saying regulation is very tricky,
49:20
the money it costs and that sort of stuff.
49:22
But standardization is something that maybe the government could get involved
49:25
in. It wouldn't cost so much and it could solve a few problems.
49:29
But until then, it does seem that it's up to people like us who have got kind
49:33
of a heart and efforts in the right places just to try and educate,
49:37
which again makes me think,
49:38
you know, that's what a flaw like therapy show can do, especially if we're talking
49:42
about these things and people are coming and listening and we're putting literature out on our websites,
49:47
collectively we can get that message across i don't think they'll ever be going
49:52
forward the machinery of government necessary for for regulation or standardization
49:58
i don't think that's there i think if we look at the government white papers
50:02
over the past sort of 2010 onward so the last 15 years,
50:07
they all say that the professional associations should be more robust,
50:12
should have stricter entry criteria, should have stricter renewal criteria, CPD policies, etc.
50:21
So I think if there is going to be a change, it is going to be people like Kate
50:25
and Sarah and myself and Simon and Chris who do these things,
50:30
who take the industry forward. because I think we've missed opportunities in the past.
50:36
Let's not miss them again in the future.
50:39
Very cool. Right. Well, look, it's 8.55. We are coming to the end of our hour.
50:45
Thank you so much for showing the collaboration and the possibilities that we've got working together.
50:52
And it's up to therapy show now. If you listen to this, Liam and Charlotte and
50:56
Vern, and then maybe you've got a little bit of work to do next week.
50:59
I think a few phone calls need to be made, maybe just sowing the seeds there.
51:03
And you know this collaboration started at therapy show
51:06
and i think it should be a highlight if you're looking at healthcare of
51:09
where therapy show could be used as a
51:12
platform for further collaboration because it is it's
51:15
the center of healthcare really is so there we go hopefully something will be
51:18
sorted out for this november if you are listening to the podcast and you're
51:22
interested in the therapy show then tickets are on for sale now sta members
51:26
until the end of the month you have got a discount you have to go to the members
51:30
page and find out what that is but you will get it for £49 before the end of the month.
51:34
And like Liam said last week, if there's groups and you've got any questions
51:38
at all, then there's phone numbers on the website, you can call up and discuss
51:42
and see what your situation is and have a chat with them. And they are quite
51:46
accessible when it comes to that.
51:48
Right then, it just leads me to mention what we're going to do next week then,
51:51
that we can get rid of that. So next week, April, there's not going to be anything next Tuesday.
51:56
Because the 1st of April is a Wednesday. So we're going to go out on Wednesday instead.
52:00
And the focus for April is going to be common frustrations for MSK clinicians,
52:04
which is kind of moving on nicely from what we've been talking about now.
52:08
And we're going to spend the month on that, looking at common frustrations.
52:11
And we'll be starting off next Wednesday, like I say, with Imi Testa of Back
52:16
on Track Sports Holistic.co.uk and the wonderful Joe Turner of mehab.co.uk.
52:19
They're going to be coming in and talking about in their own experience,
52:22
what they see as frustrations for MSK practitioners.
52:24
We're also going to have later on in the month, Carla Bickerstaff,
52:27
who a lot of people from the ST will know, and Emily Gilbert's coming in.
52:30
Also, Ben Cormack and Adam Meekins, the Better Clinician Project,
52:32
are going to come in and talk about their frustrations.
52:34
With Adam Meekins, that could be a three-hour show. But I'm really happy to
52:37
say that the BCP are going to be at Therapy Expo this year as well.
52:41
There's going to be a lot of therapy show this year.
52:43
There's going to be a lot of changes happening at therapy show this year,
52:44
a lot of people coming out and being there. So yeah, should be an interesting one to come along to.
52:50
And also Tristan Attenborough is going to be here as well to have a nice hour
52:53
chat with me about frustration.
52:55
So yeah, it should be a really good month for you. If you do want to join us
52:57
live, then you just have to watch out if it's a Tuesday or Wednesday,
53:00
but you can watch us on YouTube or you can watch the stream on Facebook.
53:03
Otherwise, just look out, subscribe to the podcast and you'll get a notification
53:06
when it's being uploaded.
53:08
So that just leaves me for today to say thanks again to my very wonderful special
53:12
guest for tonight, Kate Williams, Head of Education in the SST,
53:14
Society of Sports Therapists. Thank you, Kate, your time.
53:17
No, thank you for the invite. It's lovely to chat with you all.
53:20
Oh it's lovely lovely is the right word and if
53:23
people want more information about society of sports therapists um
53:26
then they can go along to the website which is sst.org sst.org we've got some
53:34
different um suffixes going on now so sst.org same for you sarah catlis thanks
53:38
so long thanks very much for coming along if people want information about the
53:42
sto then the best place to go.
53:44
Is the website or our Facebook group? And website is sportstherapieorganisation.
53:50
That's a .net, isn't it? Yeah, it is.
53:52
There we go. I'll make sure these links go into the show notes.
53:55
And then also, obviously, if it's information about the STA,
53:58
then the website, thesta.uk or across social media is UK underscore STA.
54:05
So thank you, everyone, who joined us. Thank you to my guests.
54:07
Thank you to the people who joined us in the live recording. I love your comments.
54:10
It looks like there's some fantastic, interesting information is going on there. if you're
54:13
interested in coming along to to join
54:16
the live shows and yeah just come along you can network wonderfully with other colleagues
54:19
until then then yes oh
54:23
one other thing yes no it's true thanks for reminding me gary and we i just
54:27
plugged the sga regional conference is may the 9th saturday may the 9th at pool
54:33
in dorset at the cobbin support center we're going to be hosting a one-day conference
54:37
there the 20th of june in ludlow at movement therapy education is a one-day conference
54:43
and hot off the press end of September or early October we're going to be in Setford in
54:50
Norfolk and I believe Sarah wants to plug her April CPD event.
54:55
Actually this is with BALD which was actually started at Conversation at Therapy
55:00
Expo which is quite interesting so we set up a.
55:05
In the southwest because we are forgotten all the way down in Devlin and Cornwall
55:09
and it is running at Plymouth Marjohn University.
55:13
It's from four to eight on the 22nd of April.
55:17
We have Adam Rutter from Injury Armor speaking.
55:20
We have Alex Kay who is one of the first team physios at Plymouth Argal and
55:25
it looks like we might get promoted this year so that'll always be a good talk
55:29
about how a use is valid and I am actually speaking about can sports therapists
55:34
diagnose knows we have all the equipment there you can have a play with that
55:38
so it's a really great event.
55:40
Information is on our public facebook page and
55:44
it is free and the event bright link is
55:47
there because we have obviously capacity only so
55:50
many people can go so fantastic loads of
55:53
stuff coming out thanks for jumping in there go i was just about to end it without all that
55:56
more different information i'll make sure if you email me all that
55:59
information we'll make sure it goes in the show notes kate williams have you got anything
56:01
interesting coming up yeah just keep an eye out on our social media we've got
56:05
some webinars planned coming up in the next couple of months so useful for all
56:09
practitioners really wonderful fantastic right thanks everyone thanks everyone
56:13
who joined us look after yourselves and look after each other and hopefully
56:17
we'll see you very soon bye-bye.