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Summer Rewind: How Low Is Your Bar For Childcare? · Not Right Now

• 0:00
  Is it's fine to get to a certain age of your life where you don't give a shit what happens with your kids. Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.
• 0:10
  We'll be talking about/crashing out over topics like... Gender identity and why they won't wear a coat. School shooting drills and forgotten PE clothes. It's not an advice show.
• 0:22
  It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches. And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important.
• 0:32
  You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website NotRightNow.show..show.
• 0:39
  And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet, and then drop us a nice little five-star review.
• 0:47
  And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions@notrightnow.show. [upbeat music] How
• 1:04
  often, if at all, have your kids truly seen you lose your shit? I mean, it depends on what losing your shit looks like. I mean, they have seen me- Well, what does it mean to you?
• 1:13
  If you're asking whether they have seen me sweep, like angrily sweep something off a tabletop, they definitely have. If they've seen me throw something angrily, they definitely have.
• 1:24
  If they've seen me drive angrily, dramatic driving, which I'm not proud of, I definitely have. I mean, but I don't cry. I don't... I cry at really weird stuff, and I never cry at the right things.
• 1:35
  And so they don't see me cry or anything like that too often. How about you? You guys seem way very chill for, you know, for people who have so many kids.
• 1:43
  I mean, again, I wanna emphasize, like, m- marijuana and anxiety drugs go a long, long way towards helping that, and not drinking, as we have discussed. Yeah. There's been plenty of that.
• 1:53
  I'm definitely the one that's more likely to not necessarily raise my voice, but be a little more stern.
• 2:00
  Though I have been correctly lectured at for almost 20 years now that often my voice sounds like I don't think it sounds, which is a little
• 2:12
  more stern than maybe I'm implying, or maybe I'm just an asshole more often than I think, which is also 99% positive.
• 2:19
  Yeah, I mean, Dana definitely good cop aga- about it, but, like, when she does, again, she never even loses it, but when she does, they're just like, "We fucked up."
• 2:27
  She even told me the other day, she was actually kinda excited about this, that she had a moment where she said to all of them, "Can you guys c- all come sit down at the table real quick?"
• 2:34
  And they were just like, "Holy fuck." Yeah. "Either we're moving again, or we really fucked this one up really bad." Yeah. Divorce. Which is great. I would love to see that. Yeah, no, 100%.
• 2:45
  Divorce, but it's definitely their fault, for sure. Yeah. There's not gonna be any, like, "You didn't do this, it's because of you guys." You know what I did do the other day? I did a loud clap, like an angry clap.
• 2:54
  That's a good one. 'Cause James... Yeah.
• 2:55
  Well, James was, it's the ADHD thing, and, like, I know, we know for a fact, and there's nothing you can do to change it, that James is a dick when he gets off screens, 'cause, like, his brain was in a happy place, and now he's- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm...
• 3:06
  in this shitty place. And I think of you with your rule that you can be tired, but you don't have to be a dick. My kid, he doesn't hear that. He doesn't, like, wanna listen to that rule.
• 3:16
  So anyway, "You have been a real dick," and it was about dinner, you know? Like, I was like, you know, he was acting like such an asshole 'cause I made dinner, and he had to eat it, and he just couldn't get over it.
• 3:26
  And I was like, "You've," like, "You lost screens for yesterday. That's over." 'Cause I was like, "Why would we let you have a thing that makes you talk to us like this?" So, um- No, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.
• 3:35
  I, all the time I'm like, "You can have all the feelings. You should have all the feelings."
• 3:38
  And one of the hardest things to learn until you're fucking 45 is that often you have many feelings at once, and they can all be true or not, and you can never figure it out.
• 3:48
  But you don't get to take it out on other people. Like, you- No... sorry, motherfucker. That's- Be mad somewhere else. Like, you're allowed to have a tantrum in private or go have a, you know...
• 3:57
  But I know it's hard doing that. Yeah. Go have a wank. Go figure it out. That's what it's there for. It solves- Yeah... virtually everything. Right.
• 4:03
  So anyways, you mentioned you will at times strategically use slang, and your children will be mortified.
• 4:11
  Do you think they're actually m- and we're talking about right now, not, like, in the past and in the future- Yeah... 'cause it changes. Is it black or white, mortified or not mortified?
• 4:20
  Or is it, like, a changing spectrum, like a percentage? Because mine, what I'll do is I'll be like, "Hey, what's your favorite song you're listening to right now?" And it's, I don't know, Gracie Abrams or something.
• 4:30
  I just roll down the windows and start singing as loud as I can as we pull in the parking lot for activities. And
• 4:35
  they have a big smile on their face, but I can tell every day the percentage of actually mortified is going up. Mm-hmm. And so my job is to see how far I can push that. But- Yeah...
• 4:44
  do you have an idea of, like, where your boys are at this point? Well, James doesn't care, 'cause he's not cool, and he doesn't listen to me anyway. But Paul, I mean, I think it's a bit. I like to think it's a bit.
• 4:55
  I was out with some witches last week actually, and we were looking at the menu of this restaurant, and there's a chopped salad.
• 4:59
  And my friend, who has this great Chicago accent, she's, "You know, chopped is what they say now when you're, like, when something's messed up or ugly. Like, the kids say they're, something's chopped."
• 5:08
  So I go home, and I see my son, and I go, "Paul, you're looking kinda chopped right now." And he's like, "Oh, Mom," you know? Like- Yeah.
• 5:16
  But, like, it's clear that I'm messing with him, and like I said, my friend Christina, she texted me and said aura is, like, the new thing. I guess aura is rizz. I don't care. Oh, yeah. I gotta use aura.
• 5:25
  And Paul knew, I mean, again, I think he knew I was, like, fucking with him, 'cause I was like, I was like, "Hey, Paul." I was like, "Do you know anyone who has got really good aura?"
• 5:32
  And he did literally face palm again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but again, I think he knows I'm not trying to actually... You know, we're in our lanes, and who wants to be...
• 5:40
  If you're 46, and you wanna be cool like a 12-year-old boy, you should be locked up. That's, there is something- Oh, 100%... really wrong with your system.
• 5:46
  [laughs] I, I think what I explain to my children, though, is it's funny.
• 5:49
  You know, I was, again, like, s- fucking six feet tall when I was 11 with a beard and athletic and all that, and I'd get, like, the, you know, most popular thing or, or whatever it was, but massively insecure.
• 6:00
  Like, my face and back looked like a fucking pepperoni pizza. You know, but at the same time, I don't know when or how, but- Giving up, I guess. Like, I have
• 6:11
  zero shame of any kind anymore, and I think that's what I'm trying to express to them. I'm not trying to be cool. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to
• 6:18
  10% show them, like, you don't have to be embarrassed by things and shame, and 90% reveling in it for myself, 'cause I've never had that. Yeah. Which is just, I'll do anything. I don't care. Yeah.
• 6:28
  No, I mean, uh, it's interesting, 'cause there is so much culture that's crossover, and every now and then when they think something I have is cool, like I'm slightly... I hate to admit it, like I do...
• 6:37
  Like, I have some Air Jordans that I got some years ago, and I get compliments on them sometimes, and I got them for sentimental reasons, 'cause I had Jordans when I was a kid and I watched, um- Sure, you're a Chicago girl.
• 6:45
  Yeah. Yeah. And I watched Last Dance, and I was like, "I'm gonna get back into it." So that was kind of fun. Paul told me, this is like one of the highest compliments, maybe top 10 of my life.
• 6:55
  I dropped him off at football a couple summers ago, and I was wearing my Jordans and maybe the leather jacket, and my, these Ray-Bans, and Paul told me one of his friends asked if I was a baddie. And I was like, "Yeah."
• 7:05
  Oh, shit. Holy fuck, that's awesome. It just makes me laugh so much. But yeah, exactly, like you'll never get better than that.
• 7:13
  But he's not cool either, so I like to think it's a bit, we'll see what happens when he actually starts being less of a kid. You know, he's young for his age, so you know, I know- He's young for his age?
• 7:23
  He's young for his grade? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but he's young for his age. Sure. Like, you can compare him to a... Did I tell you that he got invited to a Weeknd... Yeah, maybe I told you that.
• 7:31
  He got invited to see The Weeknd at Soldier Field- Oh, yeah... and he said no. Yeah, but his friend brought him a shirt from the show, which I like thought was really sweet and, and very cute. Aw, that's thoughtful.
• 7:40
  I know. Like strange things that you think are sweet, but- Let me ask you what your, besides just immense pride you had after you were told that you were a baddie, it's incredible. It, that, that's incredible.
• 7:50
  That's fucking awesome for you. Thank you. One of my friends, have you seen the kids do this thing, the, where they make the face and they do the jawline thing?
• 7:57
  No, is that like- And it's just why, like you have the jawline. Mm-hmm. And I guess at some point one of them was like, they were giggling about something. They're like, "Oh, one of my friends joked that you're a zaddy."
• 8:07
  And I was like, "Oh, what the fuck is a zaddy?" I assumed it was like a corpse. And they're like, "No, it's like a zesty daddy." And again, it was like 10%, "Yeah, I am a fucking zaddy," and 90%- Oh...
• 8:21
  and this is the thing I still do make myself feel shit about. I was like, "I gotta get in shape." Like, if there are people calling me a zaddy out there, I gotta pull my fucking life together.
• 8:29
  I gotta measure up to that, which is not healthy. Enjoy it. I actually just heard that, at least according to one child in St.
• 8:37
  Louis, I haven't investigated this, that zesty is a new phrase for meaning w- gay-seeming, basically. Uh- I'll take that hit. Yeah. I mean, I was- Yeah... on a swim team for 30 years. Like it's- Well, just saying...
• 8:48
  it's as close as it gets. Zesty da- zaddy is not zesty plus daddy, just so you know. Zesty is separate from zaddy. Mm-hmm. Zaddy is like a hot daddy. With all due respect, I'm just saying that.
• 8:58
  But you won't tell me how tall you are, so I can't tell you for sure whether- That's right... or not you're a zaddy. [laughs] Correct. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So it's Thursday in June. What are your kids doing right now?
• 9:06
  Who's watching them? Okay. No, I really like the way you set this up. At this exact moment, it is 11:50 here, Thursday, June 19th.
• 9:15
  Kids have been out of school for just over a week, I guess, calendar-wise, so it's the first week of camp. Right now at this moment, they are all at their little camp. Costs like 100 bucks a month. It's preposterous.
• 9:27
  It's amazing. It's a couple miles down the road, even closer to the little swim practice and stuff. So they're there, and they're probably eating fucking chicken fingers right now.
• 9:35
  So camp is 8:15 to 5:00, and we could very easily do all day every day, but they do get a little burnt out.
• 9:43
  But we've also got their little swim practice, which is like not super mandatory, so we try to do it once or twice a week, and then if they do that in the mornings, then someone's gotta take them there, and then when they're done with practice, you gotta wait a little bit, because then camp will do, their sort of secondary drop-off, pickup window is 12:00 to 12:30.
• 10:04
  Because otherwise they're all over the place. They're in the fucking Rivertown, whatever.
• 10:07
  So we'll do that, which drives them a little crazy, and it drives me a little crazy, and they're annoying about it, and I'm like, "It's the middle of a fucking workday. I'm sorry. Like, this is... You're welcome."
• 10:19
  But that's where they are right now. Their childcare is these wonderful, like international 19-year-old counselors. And who's doing the pickups and drop-offs? Is that all you and Dana, or- They're doing a full day today.
• 10:29
  I did part of the drop-offs, 'cause we had to go to a 6:00 AM swim practice first. Dana did the other ones.
• 10:35
  And pickups today, I mean, assuming it's me, but we're back at full-strength grandmas for the first time in a little bit, so maybe one of them? Possibly. What about you? Where are the boys right now?
• 10:46
  Right now, they're, it's Juneteenth, so there is no camp today. They are at the park.
• 10:51
  We have these neighbors who are twin boys who one of them was gonna do a paid research fellowship at Northwestern, but they lost their funding 'cause of Northwestern and the president. Okay.
• 10:59
  So he's trying to make some beer money by babysitting. So our boys are obsessed with these twins, and there's one in particular.
• 11:06
  First of all, they have really good names, Clive and Arthur, which I just think are vo- like good twin names. Kinda like- Mm-hmm... exactly the same flavor.
• 11:13
  But yeah, so they are riding bikes and playing sports with Clive and Arthur today, and they're best friends, and it's very- How old are Clive and Arthur? They are sophomores at new University of Illinois, I believe.
• 11:24
  Okay. Okay. Sophomores or juniors. So they're big- What is the relationship here? Like your boys are considerably younger than these twins. They are their playmates. They're play robots, basically.
• 11:34
  Like they will play baseball with them for as long as they want. They have a bucket of baseballs that they'll bring by. We l- are lucky that we live right by a baseball diamond, so they go right over to the playground.
• 11:44
  But Clive is driving now, so last week we had two and a half hours a day of ultimate Frisbee camp, which is like a joke, but you know, good for them.
• 11:54
  And so Clive has a car, and isn't it funny to get to a certain age of your life where you don't give a shit what happens with your kids? I was like, "Take them out to lunch. I don't care where you go." Just do whatever.
• 12:04
  Like, I'll pay you back. And not asking where you're going. I'm not... There's no car seats. There's anything like that.
• 12:10
  And then the boys were telling me that Clive curses a lot when he drives, and they were telling me that, like, with the little... You know, like, I- Mm-hmm...
• 12:17
  trying to see how scandalized I was, and I just was like, "I'm not caring about that." So there's a lot, also a lot more freedom this summer. Paul has discovered riding his bike around.
• 12:25
  He really wants to ride his bike to play it again sports, to sell his sports equipment and get a little cash. But anyway, most of the time they're at sports camp. It costs about $500,000 a summer per child.
• 12:35
  That's how LA was. Like, it's a, it's fucking unreal. Yeah. They feed them lunch twice a week, and they take them swimming twice a week. And it's door-to-door.
• 12:44
  Like, you drop off, and they come and get the kid out of your car, and then they deposit them to your car, which I love. And yeah.
• 12:51
  And it, 'cause it's Jewish, they end up getting this sort of little sprinkling of Jewish education that I think is great, 'cause they're Catholics, so they never hear anything like this, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 13:01
  So anyway, we're sort of in between care and a little bit more freedom, but you know, we're offloading this, so yeah, they're fine. You know, I don't believe in that freedom summer shit.
• 13:11
  I don't know if you keep h- reading takes about that, let's let our kid play and be wild and free. Like, I don't think that's really a thing that happens anymore.
• 13:19
  That's sort of like 1950s Christmas, where you're like, I think you are mistakenly remembering something, like, that was maybe- Mm...
• 13:26
  a week of your life and your childhood, and you're conflating that with a whole summer and applying it to 2025 kids. So you don't believe it's real, or you don't believe in doing it yourself?
• 13:35
  I don't think it's real, unless you live in a town that's very safe and you, like, and your kids are self-motivating and they, like, can take, feed thems- and I'm sure those kids do exist, but I don't know them personally.
• 13:47
  And you know, kids get bored just the way grown-ups get bored. Mm-hmm.
• 13:50
  So this idea of, like, it reminds me of COVID, COVID summer, where we're like, "We're gonna just play in the backyard all summer, and it'll be great."
• 13:56
  And then cut to two and a half hours of that, and you're like, "Kill me now." Right. Right. Much less every fucking day. Yeah, it's funny. We still have a version of it.
• 14:03
  Like, they have a lot of friends that do this camp or other... I mean, there's 400 sports camps. But I'm not doing a different thing every week. Cannot do it. C- cannot, don't have it. Wife definitely doesn't have it.
• 14:13
  If there's something amazing, okay, but this is too easy to do. But their, you know, their local... You know, the neighborhood pool thing is so big here, and there are little swim teams and stuff.
• 14:23
  But their neighborhood pool, like, I might be fabricating some of this, but I feel like when we first got here,
• 14:29
  I overheard Dana describing their neighborhood pool to a friend as, like, Stranger Things without the monsters. It's frozen in 1982. Oh, no. And it really is, like, a safe place. Like, it's- Mm...
• 14:41
  still got diving boards and little concessions where they can buy fucking food and whatever that, and you can just leave them there.
• 14:49
  If they lived in that neighborhood, they could bike to it and bike home and do whatever. I would definitely let them do that much more if we were in that neighborhood, for sure.
• 15:00
  I think where I agree that you're probably correct is, like, this fallacy of that it's a possible thing now. Like, first of all, I think when we were growing up, like, many more moms were just at home- Mm...
• 15:15
  because that's the way, uh, s- fucking society worked or didn't work. Whereas now, like, everyone works because it's impossible.
• 15:22
  And so it sounds all great, but, like, how long would you leave your kids home alone for together? Hmm, good question. Am I, how far away am I going? Imagine you're at a fucking office. You're at a job. Oh my God.
• 15:37
  Okay, if it was, like, hardcore, I guess I could leave my kids home for five or six, seven hours maybe now, but I wouldn't expect them to be doing anything productive. Like, they'd... So maybe, I guess.
• 15:48
  I mean, we're talking, like, balls to the wall, you know, hardcore, but I wouldn't drive to Valparaiso, which is 90 minutes away- Mm-hmm... you know, leave them alone like that. What are the odds they do something dumb?
• 15:57
  Not catastrophic, but, like, on any given five-hour stretch where they're left to, again, like, bike around the neighborhood, go to the field, hang out at the house.
• 16:05
  Like, what are the odds they just do something dumb that you're gonna have to deal with when you get back that's gonna make you go, "Guess I can't fucking do this"? Not dangerous, but- Yeah.
• 16:14
  N- I mean, no, they're not, like, that much of a troublemaker. If anything, I'm scared of two things. I'm ch- scared of choking, and I'm scared of distracted drivers. Mm-hmm.
• 16:22
  And, like, those are both things that are sort of, like, out of my control, you know.
• 16:25
  But at the same time, it'd be nice to be on hand to come and, you know, come and help or come and scoop or, I don't know, something like that.
• 16:31
  So if they were like, James didn't chew a grape right, and he choked, and you are two hours away, and you can't, like, get to the hospital or whatever it is. But no, they're not too dumb.
• 16:41
  Like, they're very terrified of the dog getting loose, so they're good about closing the door, you know. Mm-hmm. And yeah, I don't know. How about yours?
• 16:47
  Were they gonna get in trouble like that, or you know, how many guns do you guys have unlocked right now laying around? All, all of them. It's a fucking Thursday. We've got a small pool.
• 16:55
  That's always a question mark, for sure, 'cause they're- You guys are so lucky. Your kids are so- No, actually they don't... have such a fun time. They're very lucky. They're very, very lucky. Yeah.
• 17:04
  And I harp on that all fucking day, Claire. Yeah, I understand what it can sound like some of the time, but the rest of the time I'm just like, "You motherfuckers better appreciate this shit," you know?
• 17:15
  We've got, like, a balcony that I'm sure at some point Henry has considered taking a fucking dive off of, you know? Oh, yeah. Because there's a couch below, and of course he's gonna make it.
• 17:24
  In fact, he knocked a blade off the fan last week. He was like, "I dropped a stuffed animal, and it knocked the blade off." I was like, "The blade's 20 feet away. You didn't drop anything. You threw it."
• 17:31
  And he goes, "That's not true." I said, "Well, that's fucking math." You know, so it's go A to C on that. It's his body. Choking for sure. Did you guys ever do cameras in the house at all when they were little? No.
• 17:43
  No, we did only- When we had three under three, we definitely had a little one in each... I mean, we had three cribs going on at once. It was a bit much. And we had a few here and there. It's funny, we've got one
• 17:54
  that we had put in the basement here that the camera's still there. It hasn't been plugged in, there is no plug, for seven years, something like that.
• 18:04
  But I know sometimes that they think it's real, 'cause I'll see them, they'll put a cup over it. So I don't dissuade them of the idea that I'm watching them.
• 18:12
  [laughs] I used to kind of take pride in not using the baby monitor too much 'cause I, like, I had a friend whose baby would sort of like boss her around via the baby monitor. Oh, yeah.
• 18:22
  Like, she would be like, "Mom, my blanket fell off," and she'd run upstairs. And then like, I'm no sucker. Like, I'll just let them scream if they need me. I don't know. I think, you know, I...
• 18:31
  It would always be something s- like some of the dumbest things they do is pile a bunch of pillows, and this is more like when their friends are around, like pile a bunch of couch cushions at the bottom of the stairs and then throw themselves down there.
• 18:42
  On the one hand, I'm like, "Well, you're gonna get a concussion," but on the other hand, I absolutely did that kind of stuff, too. And we're the ones who said you can't have screens, so you know what? Well, that's it.
• 18:50
  Yeah, I did that. And you gotta make your fucking bed. And by the way, I'm okay with that. I think I've s- told you before, like I'd much rather them break their ankle climbing a tree than getting molested on Roblox.
• 18:58
  100%. Yeah. No question. Yep. I'm fine with that. Like you said, we did all that dumb shit. Great. Like, my friend's basement was like a graffiti nightmare. We destroyed it. Yeah. And we put holes in the wall.
• 19:08
  And I'm sure their parents hated it, but also we weren't bothering them, you know, so- Yeah... that's a fucking win. So now let's go back to the beginning. Did you have any help? What kind of help was it?
• 19:21
  When did it start? When did it end? And what were your sort of hiring concerns for the first kid versus the second? Yeah. 'Cause the third one, as you intuited earlier, like we have no concerns.
• 19:31
  Dana hired a babysitter from a restaurant the other night- Yeah... before we did- finished eating our dinner. I just- Don't know her name, don't know her last name, don't know anything about her. You're in charge.
• 19:39
  I was just talking to someone who was like texting with some sitter. Like, she was like several states away trying to get some Sittercity lined up. She's like, "I don't know who the fuck this is, but hopefully..."
• 19:47
  [laughs] Don't give a fuck. Don't give a fuck. I knew I wanted to work, so being a stay-at-home mom was never a consideration 'cause I enjoyed working. It was kind of part of my identity to work.
• 19:57
  I worked hard to get my career going. So we knew I would never be a stay-at-home mom. And to me, weirdly, I guess I thought...
• 20:04
  I had this anti-nanny bias, 'cause to me nannies were very fancy and like for out-of-touch people. Mm-hmm.
• 20:09
  And, and that was just me before I knew anything and before I knew everyone has different choices that are incredibly legitimate.
• 20:15
  So we were looking at daycares when I was pregnant, and I had no idea what to look for 'cause I wasn't in a daycare when I was a kid. I had no daycare memories.
• 20:22
  I had an au pair, and I went to preschool and otherwise stay-at-home mom. And this one we looked at was around the corner from our house, and I was really excited by how close it was.
• 20:30
  But then I went in this house, it was a home daycare, and we went to the basement where the babies slept apparently, and it smelled like cigarettes and weed.
• 20:37
  And I remember thinking, "This is probably not great," but also I was like, "Is that like super bougie of me to judge this?" And in retrospect, you know, I like kind of laugh at how cool I was trying to be.
• 20:51
  Like, so I'm like, I think in retrospect it is okay to not want your children to be in a house that smells like cigarettes and, and weed, you know? Mm-hmm.
• 20:57
  Even though my kids go to my parents' house, which definitely smells like cigarettes, not weed.
• 21:01
  And so then the second place I checked out was f- some friends of ours, and they just had a philosophy towards childcare and towards raising their kids that I found attractive.
• 21:10
  And they were like, "We use this home daycare. Really like this lady." So I went to meet this woman, and right off the bat she handed us, like, packets, like, of her policies.
• 21:18
  She talked about her early childhood education experience. She told us about how even if you don't keep your kids in daycare all five days, you were paying for all five days.
• 21:27
  And we found that very reassuring that she was like, "I'm running a fucking business here." We basically were like, "That's it. That's... We're going with her." And so this woman, Diana, she ran an in-home daycare.
• 21:37
  She actually transitioned into a storefront, and both kids went there, no questions asked. I remember having issues with it when I was a k- younger mom, 'cause I guess to me then, daycare had a little bit of a s-
• 21:49
  you know, there's people who act like daycare is like a baby jail, you know? Or like a doggy daycare for children, you know?
• 21:56
  They act like it's very s- this really sad place where children are lined up, you know, in front of the fence and made to labor, you know, and dig ditches and things like that. And it's not like that at all.
• 22:06
  I think it's, you know, a good one is like preschool for babies, basically. It teaches them to socialize. I think it's good, like, good peer pressure. You know, it puts them on a schedule.
• 22:15
  And by the time my son was ready for preschool, like there was no doubt he was going in, partially 'cause it was so much less expensive. But yeah, there was no doubt, you know, that he was ready to go.
• 22:25
  And then we were really sad when Mae moved on from the daycare. This woman was... She's from Ghana. She would wear Paul on her back when he had, like, an ear infection. She'd always know before we did that he was sick.
• 22:36
  Like, she'd always see it coming, and it was just, it was great. Are you... I mean, that was 10 years ago, and obviously things are more expensive. Mm-hmm. Are you willing to say what that cost you? Have any idea?
• 22:47
  I don't remember. It was like... I can look back on our checks, but it was so expense- it was so expensive. You know, 10,000 a month, can that be it? How much does a banana cost, Michael? $5? How much...
• 22:59
  [laughs] Like [laughs] $10. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It was so fucking expensive. It was a lot of fucking money. And- Okay. Okay. Yeah. Great. Well, she was running a business- Um... right?
• 23:06
  How many kids were there at a, at any given moment? Uh, they probably had three or four little babies, and then maybe eight to 10, like, little toddler kids probably. So they had a couple different rooms and... Yeah.
• 23:18
  James is a bad napper, which, like, in retrospect you're mortified 'cause you're like, "Why can't you just fucking get with the program?" But then, like, in retrospect- Right... you're like, "Cool." Right.
• 23:24
  Be like the other kid. Be somebody else. What kind of, you know, drone would just go to sleep when you're told to? Like, you know. Mm-hmm. So. At a stranger's house. Goes against all the stuff. Yeah.
• 23:33
  I mean, so we were in LA. Dana was in the middle of making a network TV show when we had our first in December, so there was like a natural three-week break, but then she had to get back to it.
• 23:45
  We had a night nanny for a little while who was a real lifesaver, partly 'cause Dana had a lot of, you know, PTSD from the whole thing. It was a lot. But then she had to go back to it.
• 23:56
  Fox, to their credit, I don't know who convinced them, 'cause I'm sure it wasn't of their own accord, they backed up a little trailer to the studio in LA, which was about an hour from her house, so that she could go and nurse him and he could nap there.
• 24:10
  But there wasn't any option of him really being...
• 24:14
  home, like our home was up in the hills, which is a huge pain in the ass to get to, and where they were shooting the show, and also her writing room were on the same lot, the Fox lot.
• 24:23
  It was like an a, le- a legit hour away. And so yes, I guess the option could've been we could've done formula all the time, and we did do a lot, but she was also like,
• 24:34
  like you, she's like, "Well, I have to work, but also I want to work. I've worked so hard to make this show," and then, you know, they eventually ended up canceling it anyways.
• 24:42
  But she was like, "But I also wanna see the kid." Yeah. And it's an hour apart, LA traffic nightmare, all this. She's like, "I gotta pump all this and that." So that was helpful. It was chaotic.
• 24:52
  What was insane was every night at, you know, they were TV hours. It was fucking crazy. But so every night it... Basically I would get there at about 4:00-ish, and then she'd
• 25:05
  f- feed him or give me some milk for a bottle that I'd carry in a cooler. God, I'm trying to piece it together here. Mm.
• 25:11
  And I would put him in the car, 'cause he had, you know, we were pretty structured, so he had a pretty strict bedtime, 6:00, something like that. So we had to do the whole routine, reverse engineering from that.
• 25:22
  But you don't wanna drive across Los Angeles at 5:00. Like it was a nightmare. He screamed the whole way every time, which is understandable, and never knew how long it was gonna take.
• 25:31
  There was nothing you could do to get him to calm down. I also knew if I started giving him his bottle in the car or let him sleep, gonna be a nightmare otherwise, because- Mm-hmm...
• 25:40
  babies are real if you give a mouse a cookie shit. They're both completely resilient, which you realize by number three, which is like they're fine. Yeah. But also real addicted to habit and structure.
• 25:50
  Pros and cons there. More pros, but definitely some cons. You gotta watch your steps.
• 25:55
  So that was pretty fucking gnarly, but we were very lucky to have help then, and then when he was three months old and we were trying for our second one through IVF, you know, not nearly as much of a clusterfuck as the first one, but the second one, so we have a...
• 26:10
  I mean, each of my kids is 17 months apart. Your first was three months old when you were ready for the, when you were thinking about the second one?
• 26:16
  Well, basically we had so many IVFs that didn't work, and miscarriages up to him, and then Dana was, as they described it, and boy, nothing pissed her off more, a geriatric pregnancy. She was- Yeah...
• 26:28
  whatever, 36 or some shit. That basically, like he had to be a few months old, and our IVF person and our OBGYN were like, "Well, you guys wanna have more kids.
• 26:39
  Like science has basically said, like you can't have them, and this one was shocking, like that it actually happened. So if you want to have another one, no one's getting any younger."
• 26:49
  We still never found out, by the way, like why it never worked for us until these two. Yeah. They were like, "You should start the whole thing 'cause it's a process."
• 26:58
  And we did, and we were like, "We would like this person to have a sibling, so I guess we'll try." So anyways, they ended up 17 months apart total. So it was a lot. I mean, I knew that mathematically, but I cannot...
• 27:12
  Oh, God, I cannot imagine like- Yeah, it's fucking-... yeah... brutal, and people have them closer, but often naturally or by accident or whatever, we had to.
• 27:20
  And then, uh, you know, I think I've said before, of course the third one was a complete accident while she was breastfeeding, which sure, why not? Fucking like $400,000 of IVF later, you know- Just relax...
• 27:30
  have sex one time while I'm heading to a softball game. You're the one who's trying to have sex after you have kids like a show-off, so- Yeah, go fuck yourself. Oh, God, and you just- Yeah...
• 27:38
  it's funny, you just said like the code word that I swear to God that used to make us so angry, the whole like, "Just relax, have a glass of wine, and it'll work." Yeah. And you're just like- Yeah, yeah...
• 27:45
  nothing makes you wanna set other people on fire than hearing that. So when he was three months old, again, she was back to work on something else.
• 27:52
  I was, I had just pivoted my career and was working towards doing more TV stuff and some investing in political and philanthropic stuff.
• 28:01
  So I definitely could have taken more hours and time, but one, if I didn't get my shit together, then it would've been hard to figure out when to do it, and the way stupid Hollywood works is if, if something comes along, you basically just have to say yes.
• 28:17
  I mean, that's now it's, you know, God knows, but then that was the deal. I ended up saying no to a very specific job that I did audition for a lot because the hours were crazy.
• 28:27
  They were like, "Well, we get there at 10:00 AM, and we leave at 11:00 PM," and I was like, "We just spent all of our money and all the things to make it, and we're trying to make...
• 28:34
  "Cause I have to literally give my wife shots. So that was a, a bit of a pivot, but we hired this woman, and it's funny, I have a little dumb journal entry that pops up every year, like on this day.
• 28:46
  And it was like, "Oh, we just hired this new woman, you know, hopefully she's great." Mm-hmm. She ends up being with us for 10 years. Wow. You know, moved around LA.
• 28:55
  She, who wasn't with us, with us, but you know, we moved around LA, she would come. COVID, she came for a little bit here and there. You know, we had three under three, and then that becomes three under four and five.
• 29:07
  It required a lot of help, and so that was a lot. It was really expensive. It was increasingly expensive, but at the same time, for her, LA was getting prohibitively expensive as well.
• 29:21
  She's now about 60, something like that.
• 29:23
  She's worked for her, I owe her everything, would've given her everything, but it was a lot, but there was no way for both of us to work in a very uncertain industry, especially me trying to,
• 29:36
  you know, start over basically, and do that especially with three and different schedules and, and all that shit. It was impossible. So paid her a lot, but it was totally worth it.
• 29:46
  She was great, and then we started to do, there was this program, like, you know, we were like, there, daycare was impossible.
• 29:52
  You, one, even if you could afford it, which most people couldn't even then 10 years ago, you're not getting in, and there weren't that many to start with. But a couple of,
• 30:03
  I think they were like former kindergarten teachers, started this thing called Portable Classroom- Oh... I think it was called, and it was for two-year-olds.
• 30:12
  And it was like twice a week, and someone would have it at their... It was like a group of eight kids. Someone would have it at their house, and like you'd have friend of friends and their kids in the same range.
• 30:21
  And two totally qualified kindergarten teachers would run it, but- Like you're saying, it was emotional intelligence.
• 30:27
  It was, you know, like you said, peer pressure for a two-year-old, learning to be on a schedule, like learning to... They, y- you realize they don't actually know how to play with each other, and they- Right...
• 30:35
  can't even learn how to do that for a while, but they learn how to play next to each other, and stuff like that- Yeah... was really important.
• 30:41
  And again, it was only like three hours twice a week or three times a week, but that was really helpful, and it gave us a little preview of what school would eventually be like.
• 30:48
  So all of our kids ended up doing that, and then when we looked at preschools, it was fucking brutal.
• 30:52
  We were trying to figure out where to live in LA too, and, you know, we'd go and visit these schools that were so expensive, and they seemed great, and then they'd say things like, "And this is how by, you know, the time they're in the five-year-old program, they'll have set up these foundations for college."
• 31:07
  And I was like- Yeah... I just wanna roll it in the fucking mud. I don't- Right. But are you susceptible- I- I can't do it... to that peer pressure? 'Cause it can be so- No... you know, your higher self.
• 31:14
  I am definitely not, and I think my experience out there, for better or worse, was l- almost became, like, antagonistic towards it. Mm.
• 31:23
  Which was, again, partly definitely driven by insecurities and partly just, "You gotta be fucking kidding me." But I knew it was the same in New York and all these other places too. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's crazy.
• 31:32
  But I was like, "We're not doing it." We happened to find the most wonderful little preschool. It really was like a pile of dirt, and these- Mm-hmm... wonderful people who ran it, and there were probably 12 to 15 kids
• 31:44
  at each age level, you know? Uh-huh. I think it was three, four, five, and that's it. There weren't multiple classes. And it was mostly outside. And I mean, it's, you know, next to a highway, but everything is.
• 31:55
  But it was really, like, dirt and rolling around and emotional intelligence. These people that ran it were amazing, and we were so thankful for them.
• 32:00
  Again, at one point, all three were there, and we were like, "How soon do they go to public school?" Yeah. And, you know, y- you mentioned this, and we definitely had, have, but at the time, had friends who were like,
• 32:13
  "M- my kid's gonna go to kindergarten because I can't afford this anymore." Mm. "They're gonna be the youngest one in their class, 'cause that's just not an option for us. We have to start school now." Yeah.
• 32:22
  Which is totally fair out there, for sure. I, I have a friend who, she and I went to college together. We got married within a few weeks of each other.
• 32:30
  We've had both of our kids within a few weeks of each other, so we've been through all these milestones together. But we had a real come to Jesus, because Paul, our older one, like, it is just his personality.
• 32:40
  It is so much his personality. But I was like, he's ready for preschool. Like, he's not scared of people. He rolls with things. He eats. And she felt really strongly that kids should be, like, red-shirted, as they say.
• 32:50
  That- Mm-hmm... at some, you know, there's more successful outcomes for kids being the biggest in their class.
• 32:55
  So to this day, her son is a couple weeks older than Paul, but a year behind him in school, and Paul's younger than her son, but older than him. And, you know, he's gonna be in eighth grade. Mm-hmm.
• 33:05
  And at the moment, I remember feeling, like, offended by her, 'cause she was so... She was like, "This is objectively, the science shows this." And I was like, "Well, my kid is just...
• 33:14
  I'm not keeping him in daycare just for c-" You know? And- Yeah... it was the right, it was the right move. Like, it worked out. There'd be, you know, for a couple years, I'd ask the teachers, like, "How's your Paul?"
• 33:23
  "He's fine." They're, yeah. They're like, teachers would ask me, surprised that I asked, basically. But- Right... yeah, I just was so ready. Oh, that daycare drop-up, pick-up, I hated that stuff.
• 33:33
  I don't know how to describe it, like why there's something...
• 33:36
  Not like school is that much better, but there was something about the car seat of it all, and the shoes and the bottle, and the kid being mad at you that you came, you know, and the traffic and the weather. Yeah.
• 33:46
  I don't miss that, that part at all. I am a real weirdo in that, like, I really fucking love babies and little kids, and all the shit that comes with it.
• 33:59
  And so I really enjoyed seeing them in their shit, and all the different stuff, and all that. I liked it, but it was definitely a lot. I mean, to go anywhere- Oh...
• 34:08
  literally to get them fucking home from daycare, you were like, "Don't shit yourself. Don't shit yourself. Don't shit yourself." [laughs] "I have this long till the bottle. Is there milk?"
• 34:15
  Or, you know, we did formula for a long time. Side note, do whatever the fuck works for your children. Jesus Christ. Don't breastfeed. Don't breastfeed. Don't do it. Like, it's- Like- Are there wonderful things about it?
• 34:26
  Sure. Are there wonderful things about formula? Sure. Fuck everybody else. The science is fuck everybody else and do what's easy and that you can afford to do, 'cause some people can't do any of it.
• 34:35
  And by the way, got extra breast milk? I've got an action step where you can fucking donate it. And have we ruined the formula production lines in the US? Yes, also that.
• 34:43
  And it's a whole fucking thing, but do whatever you can do. The point is,
• 34:47
  you know, you've got so much stuff stacked up that you gotta do, and you gotta do this, and the timing of it, and is someone happy about this, and everyone's fucking tired, that we really enjoyed it, but we were looking forward to getting out of it like anybody else.
• 35:00
  And then, you know, we had help. I tried to do most of the driving. Again, like, I definitely probably could have taken more of a hit for sure, and I'm sure we had fights about that.
• 35:10
  But objectively, measurably, this nanny, I mean, her, her name is Pisha, her nickname is Pisha, was 1 to 10,000 times better at it than I was. So there's also that, where it's like, I just work for her. Like- Mm, yeah...
• 35:27
  I'm just the physical labor here, you know? So it was a lot. We paid for a lot after paying a lot to get our kids.
• 35:35
  Probably paid a little less for that school than some of these other ridiculous ones with 1,000 kids getting ready for college.
• 35:41
  It did end up being a little closer to home, but in LA, that almost doesn't matter, 'cause it's either a really long way or a long way, no matter how far away it actually is in distance. It was
• 35:51
  tight for times, for sure, but I wouldn't trade it. I probably wouldn't do it differently. But yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. Mm.
• 35:58
  But I don't know how we could have done it and, you know, facilitated Dana working as much as she did and wanted to. Mm-hmm. You know? Was there anybody in your family who...
• 36:09
  I mean, I, I know Dana's career was really established, and obviously it's not the kind of thing you could just walk away from, you know?
• 36:14
  But was there anyone in your family who had feelings about having a stay-at-home parent, or thought that was ideal? I don't know if you guys grew up with a stay-at-home parent. No.
• 36:20
  I mean, my mom was, my mom was a kindergarten teacher until shortly before I was born, I think. And then she would stay at home for the rest of the time, driving fucking kids everywhere, you know? Yeah.
• 36:31
  I think she had a little... And she eventually went back to teaching, and then she teaches kids yoga, and it's wonderful, and she loves that.
• 36:38
  But, you know, she was also the second of nine kids, and basically raised the last three kids in her family too, so she had a lot of experience with that as well. So I think it was less hard and more just, it was a lot.
• 36:48
  It's four fucking kids spread over 10 years, and a lot to do. I was very lucky I had both sets of grandparents in town after I was about 10. And we were lucky.
• 36:56
  I mean, my mom was 3,000 miles away when our kids were younger. Obviously, she was here. She would come out and visit.
• 37:03
  My mother-in-law was out there, and she lived a little further away for a lot of it, and, you know, not everyone is into babies and little kids.
• 37:11
  She's wonderful, but she was definitely more of a, I can hang with each one one-on-one for a period of time- Mm-hmm... and was great about that, but more than one was like, yeah, it's a lot for fucking anybody. Yeah.
• 37:21
  So yeah, look, we've been very lucky to have a lot of help. It's a nightmare out there for everyone at this point. Mm-hmm. You know? It really is.
• 37:29
  And, and by the way, that includes people who actively want to work in childcare or child education of, of any kind. It is a nightmare for them too, everywhere.
• 37:40
  So I'm extra thankful knowing that, you know, the macro reality. But yeah, we were super lucky. Mm. And that's, by the way, getting all the way to this camp that my kids are at now for whatever, 100 bucks a week.
• 37:51
  I'll look up exactly how much it is, but it's, it's not much more than that. They started, our oldest started when he was six, and we were like, "Guess what? You're there all day. That's the deal." Mm.
• 38:00
  "That's your babysitter, bud." Yeah. I don't know what to tell you, man. We're very lucky to get into it. It sells out in the first five minutes for the whole summer. Mm-hmm. And that's what we got. Yeah.
• 38:09
  You are lucky to get into it. I don't know about your town, but here it's like a big, you know, everyone get ready the night before, get the website up, get the- Oh, yeah... get your credit card going.
• 38:19
  Two screens and- Like, set your alarm. And I was, yeah, I was just talking to a friend yesterday who, she didn't ask, but I gave her my opinion on like what- Perfect...
• 38:26
  went wrong, because her daughter's in this camp that she wanted to get into, and of course, she's getting bullied horribly by her best friend, 'cause girls are.
• 38:34
  And I was like, "You know, the problem is that all these moms get together in their chat, like right before camp sign-up, and start comparing notes about what camp.
• 38:41
  So Quinn won't do blank camp, you know, or he refuses, or Claire hates this camp-" Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... "or she won't go." And I'm like, "Why are you, uh, comparing notes and asking your kids' opinions?
• 38:50
  Like, just sign up and send them." Like, when they start negotiating and having their input is like when, you know...
• 38:56
  I mean, easy for me to say, of course, as my- No, and I understand at some point they- they're really into something and they really wanna do it, which may prohibit them from doing something they might even tolerate or like doing.
• 39:07
  When they start to hate things, it is what it is. But I also had this discussion with a friend recently a- and I was just like, "Well, I don't really give a shit what my kids' opinions are." Like, at- No...
• 39:19
  at this point. I'm like, "We're both working, and you're lucky to have everything you have, and you're there with friends" Yeah. And again, most of the kids in town, like, couldn't get into this, even if it was- Yeah...
• 39:27
  100 bucks a week. And it's camp, you know, like- You're fucking welcome. Like, you're outside- Yeah... making bracelets and archery, and g- fuck off.
• 39:34
  You meet other kids, 'cause that's, at least, like in our town, the high school is 3,000 kids.
• 39:38
  So sort of like the long game is that prior to high school you meet kids from around town, so that by the time you are airdropped into this town of a high school, that you've met kids from all around. Right. You know?
• 39:48
  And you deal with them, so that you're not like a precious little glass figurine who, like, can't deal because, like, your one frenemy is not in your homeroom with you.
• 39:57
  You know, but anyway, as always, I feel very thankful that my kids, again, they're just like pretty easygoing, you know?
• 40:03
  And the sports thing is so nice for them, so convenient, that they can just do that and be kind of basic and, and go along with it.
• 40:09
  During COVID, there were v- very few camps open, and my parents belong to a golf club, and they went to this golf club camp that was just like...
• 40:17
  We took them out because they decided not to do masks, so the parents were not into masks.
• 40:22
  And this was like back when we were in COVID and super judgmental, but we also had the weird feeling anyway of this, like, fucking country club camp, where I was like, camp is where you learn swear words that you never heard before.
• 40:33
  You know? And like- Mm-hmm...
• 40:34
  where y- like I think I told you, my son was riding his bike around a couple days ago, and I haven't gotten all the information 'cause he's too embarrassed to tell me, but a guy on a bike with a bottle of whiskey was accusing my son [laughs] of, like, child sexual assault.
• 40:48
  And James was very terrified. Paul won't tell me about it 'cause he's too embarrassed, I think. But anyway, but I'm like, "That's summer." Like, you should kinda have these, like, kinda safe scary moments. Yeah.
• 40:59
  [laughs] Like where- Yeah... you know, he grew up a little bit, a tiny bit. No, that's it. That is, again, and it's that line of it's so easy to be like, "Oh, they, they deserve all this freedom."
• 41:07
  It's like they do, but unfortunately, we've constructed a world that makes that very impossible.
• 41:12
  And so I'm sure you would actually pay for some sort of camp or childcare if you could get into it, if you could afford it, if you weren't already barely paying your rent and your food and all that shit. Yeah.
• 41:19
  'Cause you all have to work. But also, again, like COVID, with, they're, every fucking meme, when your kid's just home and you have to work, and now more people working from home, it's a huge pain in the ass. Mm.
• 41:30
  And it almost doesn't matter what age they are, unless you're willing to do here's 24/7 Roblox. It's hard, so we're very lucky to be able to do what we do, and we do try to give them more of that freedom. But
• 41:41
  same thing, like occasionally they'll be like, "Ah, I mean, I would love like one week this summer where I don't do camp. I just kinda hang with my friends." I'm like, "Sounds great." Becomes my problem immediately.
• 41:51
  Yeah, exactly. Where the fuck are you going? Immediately. You know? And what are you doing, and what are you adjusting- Yeah... and who are you exposing yourself, or who's- Yeah... exposing themselves to you? Right.
• 42:00
  Exactly. I- It's a two-way street, yeah.
• 42:01
  I think all the time, there's a lot of sliding doors moments in my life, and one I think about constantly would be, is what my life would be like if we had like a on-call nanny, babysitter, au pair type who did most of the driving around, for instance.
• 42:15
  And I always go back to kind of reassuring myself that maybe the ass ache of overseeing another person would not be worth, would not equate whatever freedom would come from not doing this other kid stuff.
• 42:29
  But I think all the time about that, and I have a little- It's hard not to have a chip on my shoulder, I think, about that decision, where I sometimes I'm like, if someone does have a nanny or a sitter or an au pair, I'm like, "Must be nice.
• 42:40
  Must be nice to not have to raise your kids and drive around." Fully. Oh yeah, fully. I'm like, I want it so bad. Yeah. I wish I had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Must be nice. Give it to me. No, I mean 100%.
• 42:50
  And, and we tried to be as acutely aware of how lucky we were to have that.
• 42:55
  Again, like it's so easy to say, and this is again one of the annoying things you explain to your kids but is so important when, when, when we're like, "Guys," you know, and they worship Pisha sh- as far as they know.
• 43:05
  Like, she's family. You know, "Your mom and dad both work full time, which means we can pay however uneven it is to have this. But also, if we didn't have her, we couldn't do that."
• 43:18
  And they're like, "Well, fucking Tommy and Sarah's parents both work." And I'm like, "Yeah, they work just as hard, if not harder. They don't get paid as much as Mom and Dad, so they can't do it."
• 43:28
  And so Sarah, their mom or their dad, is either laid off or gonna have to quit, 'cause now you're doing the thing of, do I pay for childcare and I have to work to pay for it, or do I not work
• 43:40
  and I'm home and I'm not paying for it, but now I'm not working and I'm home? And there can be wonderful things about that, and there can be really hard things about that.
• 43:49
  We've removed so much agency and choice from people choosing what to do that works best, which can change on like a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis for their family situation, you know? Mm-hmm.
• 44:02
  And it's really too bad, 'cause it... I think it just could make it easier on everyone. Like, going back to like when was the last time you blew up at your kid.
• 44:09
  If you just had something reliable that wasn't a nightmare, that didn't cost as much as college, boy, that would probably make you blow up less. Y- not you. I mean, you're a monster, but you know what I mean.
• 44:19
  Did you do childcare when you were... for a job ever? Were you a counselor, babysitter, anything like that? I feel like I babysitted twice and never got invited back- Yeah...
• 44:27
  for whatever reason, probably 'cause I, like, had a girlfriend over or something. But my version of that was, again, like I've always loved little kids 'cause my mom's family's so big.
• 44:36
  I'm the second oldest of 31 cousins. Oh. And the majority of those grew up in our town. And I just spent a lot of time with them, you know?
• 44:47
  And I really loved coaching swim lessons for little kids and stuff like that, so I just really always loved it. So I guess that was my version of it. I just, I don't know. I really enjoyed it.
• 44:56
  I liked being like a jester for them. Am I harder on my kids than I was those kids? Of course. Of course. Yeah. Of course. But yeah, that was mine. What about you? Were you babysitter's club or what?
• 45:08
  I mean, I babysat some, but I wasn't super into it. You know, I liked, if anything, going through the kitchens after the kids went to bed and seeing if like- Oh, yeah... there were any good food to eat. The good snacks.
• 45:19
  And how much... Yeah, and how much I could eat without people noticing. You know, going through their record collections.
• 45:24
  But I remember, it's just kinda funny, 'cause Paul, our older one, he's a CIT, a counselor in training, at camp this year, which is basically us paying for him to be a counselor.
• 45:35
  But I remember being a counselor at my own summer, my sleepaway camp, which the boys are gonna go to. I mean, they've been there before, but they're going to. And I,
• 45:42
  I asked for older kids, 'cause I thought they'd be easier than, like, homesick little bed-wetters, and I learned a couple things. I learned nobody...
• 45:50
  I'm sorry, I feel like I sometimes, like, sound like I'm really down with girls, and I'm not. I think girls actually carry the weight of the world on their shoulders, and they are so complicated.
• 45:57
  But I learned that, like, middle school girls are fucking complicated, not easy, like, fighting each other. So hard. You know? Not loving on me. Like, not interested in me whatsoever.
• 46:08
  And I realized, I was like, "I actually don't wanna be in charge of these kids. I wanna be an adult with full autonomy at this camp without being in charge of anybody."
• 46:16
  And so [laughs] I should've known then that was like a glimpse at motherhood, basically. Just not quite the description of a camp counselor. You're like, "How do I do this, but without any of the kids involved?"
• 46:25
  Yeah, how do I send them all home? You're like, "You're fired." The answer is you're fucking fired. Right. Right. That was when I knew that I was not, like, necessarily, you know...
• 46:32
  And now, of course, I, same as you, I love babies. I love especially little boys, 'cause they're so cute, and, like, they are... I don't, but they're not mine. That's why they're so cute. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 46:41
  Like they're, you know, ephemeral. You know, so no. Yeah. Childcare was not my thing.
• 46:46
  And I think if anything now, if I'm good with kids, it's 'cause I don't care if they like me or if they're interested in me, and kids like that. Like, kids hate- Mm-hmm...
• 46:53
  grown-ups who, like, are thirsty for their approval. Like, they can smell it a mile away. No, they'll take advantage of that in a heartbeat. So side quest, y- it's really interesting- Yeah...
• 47:02
  you brought up the middle school girl thing, because again, like, I try to have so much empathy for it, which is impossible to do when I was that age.
• 47:09
  But you know, my oldest came home recently, and he was talking about, you know, he grew up around all these wonderful girls, and he was talking about, he was like, "There's a couple that are still really nice to me one on one, but in groups..."
• 47:22
  Oh. He's like, "It's crazy." And again, not having directly gone through it myself, but trying to speak to it a little bit as much as I can, and, and knowing who these girls are, I was like, "It's not about you.
• 47:35
  It's so gnarly for them right now." And as I was talking to Dana about it, and she was like, "Yeah. I mean, you come to school every day. You don't know who's mad at you and who's not, and for what reasons.
• 47:47
  Now you're, like, left out of text message threads, you're removed from ones or someone's having them or not or, or there's sleepovers." She's like, "It's awful, and everything is performative all the time."
• 47:56
  And again, this is not a criticism. This is a, just, like, a fact of how it's going. Mm.
• 47:59
  There's a really good, you know, I, I think I've mentioned to you this before, this little thing I have pop up on my watch that says, "Your kid's having a hard time not giving you a hard time." Uh-huh.
• 48:08
  And a version of that is, now that we're entering adolescence, is like, "You think the mood swings are rough for you? For them, it's a fucking nightmare." Everything is existential all the time, and I do remember that.
• 48:20
  And I just basically try to tell him that. It's just like, "Dude, if it's still good one on one, great. If you wanna say a little something to one of them in a kind way, sure." Mm.
• 48:27
  "But understand that it is Vietnam in there, like at all times." Well, for sure. It's crazy. That is so dear to me that he was even noticing that and talking about that.
• 48:37
  Like, I already am like, "What a sweetie," you know? And that he has girlfriends. Like, Paul is just in a black box right now and won't talk about girls, like aside from saying which ones get in trouble a lot at school.
• 48:48
  Mm-hmm. But he won't talk about, like friends. He will say, he will...
• 48:52
  I was talking about like girl drama, and he was like, "That's weird, 'cause girls act so nice to each other's faces at school, and like they're all friends."
• 48:58
  And I was like, "That is part of the, the hell, is that you have to be," like- Mm-hmm... it's one thing to be an adult or be older and be like, you know, take some people, leave some people.
• 49:06
  But especially at a small Catholic school where you've like known these kids your whole life, like it is social jail in some ways. So, you know, it's just interesting.
• 49:15
  They just, I mean, I love how innocent they are, 'cause they just don't get it. I was looking at...
• 49:20
  Oh, we were talking about crop tops, and I was saying how I, I would have never worn a crop top in my entire life when I was a girl. And they're like, "Why?"
• 49:27
  And I was like, "Well, I was raised in the '90s, where you were told that your body was disgusting." You know, and I never had, oh God, to have a flat stomach, like nothing, your problems would all be solved.
• 49:38
  Like you could be a 90210, you could shop at Contempo Casuals, like you could do anything you wanted. Never had that currency.
• 49:45
  And so I look at girls now who kind of wear whatever they wanna wear, whatever they look like, which I think is great. But I'm like, "God, I don't know if my brain would l- like, if I would have that mentality."
• 49:57
  Anyway, the boys were like, they just couldn't believe that you would ever feel that way. You know? Like never anything like that. And I was like, "God bless you. Like, what a nice way to live your life.
• 50:05
  I'm really happy for you, honestly, you guys have no idea." Oh, yeah.
• 50:08
  We joke and we talk about, you know, this is a parenting for older millennials, young Gen X people, and how great those times were and all this, but also not fucking great.
• 50:19
  I mean, Dana always talks about like how many of her friends, like their moms would make them feel terrible about their bodies, and their dads would make the comment. Like, it, it was awful. It's crazy.
• 50:29
  I mean, the only thing that makes me, I think all the time about how I would live my life if I were this age, like when you can get a shot to lose weight, you know, if you want to.
• 50:37
  Like, which is not, that's not a judgment call, it's just a fact, like you didn't have that choice back then. And like, it's just a different world, and I don't know if shame... You know what? I don't wanna know.
• 50:45
  I'm sure it's much worse, 'cause there was no internet back then, and so it was all, you know, at least you got to go home and feel bad in your own privacy without going online. Right.
• 50:52
  A- again, right, put on some Nirvana or, yeah, definitely pros and cons. We were out to dinner the other night. I was wearing like a, a T-shirt from my kids' swim team, and the waitress said, "Oh,
• 51:06
  c- can I ask, do they swim?" And we said, "Yeah." And she goes, "Oh, I swim for William and Mary." And within f- four seconds, I'm not kidding, Dana had her digits and had hired her. No questions about it.
• 51:17
  Like anti-vac, there was nothing. And you know, you kinda assume you'll figure it out, but like h- like not how low would you go right now, but, you know, do you have a make or break in that sorta situation?
• 51:28
  Like wh- how low is your bar? In terms of like their belief systems, or? No, just like- Oh, how random? What would they have to do in the first minute and a half
• 51:37
  to make you not ask them to watch your children tomorrow at an unspecified time at your house without you? What is like a make or break at this point? God, that is such a great question.
• 51:46
  I haven't even thought about that. I have not found [laughs] I haven't found anyone. I'm gonna give you an anecdote that is not the same as you, 'cause we will take anything, basically.
• 51:53
  Like I told you, we've come home to the kids not being in bed. Like we've come home to- Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah... you know, cleaning. Oh, that's fucking, yeah.
• 51:59
  There was one woman who, for some reason, we told, I think we were trying to be cool, sitting clients. But, but, and P.S. you're not.
• 52:06
  But we told her she could help herself to anything in the fridge, anything, when we were gone. And we came home, and she was sitting on the couch drinking a Budweiser, like watching TV, and was like, "Hey, guys."
• 52:16
  And she kind of was treating us like her roommates. Like she didn't get up off the couch. She just sat there finishing her beer. And that's fine, but I was like, "We're not hanging out now. Your job is done.
• 52:27
  You can take the beer-" Yeah... "leave the beer. I don't care." And that was one sitter we never hired again.
• 52:32
  I think it was really more about her hanging out and not leaving immediately when it was time to take off the Spanx, you know, smoke a bowl, make a coffee, go to bed.
• 52:41
  So yeah, so hanging out I think would be honestly a big one. I imagine someone who is super online, I think someone who could not stop themselves from making TikToks maybe, or- Mm-hmm...
• 52:51
  showing your kids' shit online, that would probably be, you know, but I don't know how you discover that early on, you know? But my kids don't, you know, you go with anyone. Take the, go with that, that random guy.
• 53:02
  Yeah You know? No, no, no. If the van's offering candy, go get 'em. Like I- Yeah... yeah. Best wishes. No, it's like responsible town with a lot of like lifeguards and- Mm-hmm...
• 53:11
  you know, kids who wanna go, you know, be on the national honor roll. I don't know. We'll see. I guess we can always, you know, we're also always joking about our kids getting molested at Mount Trashmore.
• 53:19
  What are your deal breakers? [laughs] Unless somebody was like, "Hey, how are you? You know, can I take your order? I'm an anti-vaxxer." Other than that, you know? But even an anti-vaxxer- Yeah...
• 53:32
  you're not asking them to go get your kid a vaccine. No, I'm not. You're not being like, "You're one to-" And honestly, I mean,
• 53:37
  I guess like the macro of our family, if it was different, if like we actually went out and did shit, like you're much more social than we are. I mean, it's all relative, but you're definitely more social than we are.
• 53:47
  So there's less of a need all the time, but yeah, unless, I don't know, if they use a slur in the first couple minutes, maybe. Yeah. But like cursing, don't give a shit. Like all, all these different things.
• 54:01
  Again, if they're immediate, if I see immediately they're on the phone, it's like, "All right, we'll do it for tonight because we already made this reservation or whatever." Yeah. "But you're not coming back."
• 54:08
  It really changes. Again, like if they were idiots, I wouldn't leave them home alone that long, though they're fine now. We got our landline. So I'll get a call from the landline.
• 54:15
  People go, "Where the fuck are you guys?" And I'll be like, "Go over to grandma's." Mm-hmm. "I, I bought your grandma a house down the street." [laughs] "Go, they can go there."
• 54:21
  I did wanna, I did wanna know like at your current state, 'cause I would complain about babysitting, and a friend of mine would be like, "Why did you move to your town if your parents aren't sitting all the time?"
• 54:30
  And I was like, "Well, first of all, even at the best of times, my parents are not drop everything and come help."
• 54:35
  Like they will come help, but they set their boundaries, and they're not just, they're not just like free babysitting, take advantage all the time.
• 54:41
  Like they, they have their schedule, and they have their one- But then as they've gotten older, they've kinda gotten just... They've lost confidence and they've lost a step. So like- Mm-hmm...
• 54:49
  they got really anxious about dropping them off at school or picking up at school, 'cause what if we were at the wrong place and the kids don't know where to find us, and things like that.
• 54:56
  And coming over to babysit and asking all the time what they're gonna have for dinner or, or what time they're gonna go to bed. And you're like, "Okay, you know what? Like you're free, but you're not really free."
• 55:05
  You know? And my parents go to bed early. Mm-hmm. So there's no staying out late, you know? So at a certain point they kinda got phased out, aside from like a breakfast date, 'cause it's just like you guys are...
• 55:14
  Like it's almost like my kids are watching you more than anything else at this point. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like- Yeah, I don't know. We usually send them to grandparents' houses most often.
• 55:23
  I think that's honestly how we settle most of our sitter stuff now is, "Beat it. You guys go somewhere else." Mm-hmm.
• 55:28
  Or to a friend's or whatever, and they're always, their friends are always game for that kind of stuff, which is, we're really lucky for. And we'll always take somebody else's kids all the time.
• 55:36
  I'm always like, "Give me your kids." That's easy.
• 55:39
  Well, the parenting rule that no one ever tells you but is the most important parenting rule is it's always easier to have your kids' friends over, 'cause then they- Yeah... will ask fewer questions of you. It's... Yeah.
• 55:50
  So I'll do that all the time. I mean, Charlotte has a friend over, I could be a dead body in the middle of the kitchen, they wouldn't talk to me for- Yeah... 24 hours. You know what'd be funny?
• 55:58
  It'd be funny to hear you... Has anyone ever, a friend of yours who you've known, heard you talk in your parenting voice and clocked you on it? Heard you talk in your dad voice? Oh. Oh.
• 56:07
  All the ti- I mean, a- again, like my best friends in life are the people who I grew up with. My best friend on the planet, his dad delivered me. Yes.
• 56:15
  [laughs] They, all they do is hear that and they're just like, "Yeah, oh, here he fucking comes, this guy." Yeah. And I'm like, "Oh, God." It's so unattractive- Need more marijuana...
• 56:22
  to yourse- If you look in a mirror or like your Zoom opens up without your face getting ready and you're like, "I don't like hearing that version of myself." Yeah. I don't wanna see it.
• 56:30
  Like, I know I- I don't wanna hear it. Mm-hmm. I'm talking in this like barking tone, this like nagging, you know, where I know I don't sound nice. Like I'm not like a sweet- All the time. We're just, we're all so close.
• 56:42
  We'll just, we'll immediately fuck with each other, just a whole bunch of Father of the Year, killing it again, and everyone's like, "Ah, God, I hate my li-
• 56:49
  " I remember the sitter, one sitter who lost me because he's a neighbor boy and he, you know, he's like a kid that you grew up with sort of and you treat them like your own child un- to a certain extent.
• 57:01
  And we had to cancel a sit, I don't remember what. I wasn't feeling well or a kid wasn't feeling well. I forgot what it was. But it was like two days notice. I don't think it was that crazy a notice.
• 57:10
  And this kid, and I don't think I told his mom, 'cause I was like, "She will fucking destroy him if she-" She's gonna find out now. "If he fucking-" Let's fucking do it. She's probably not listening.
• 57:17
  But he told me that he was disappointed in me because we canceled the sit 'cause he could have done something else with the time.
• 57:25
  And I, I kept it to myself 'cause I, this kid has certain other things going in his background and in his life and I know he just operate... I didn't say a word, but I was like, "It's fucking sorry. I'm not sorry.
• 57:36
  You don't... You're whatever." How do you even... You're a baby. What the fuck are you talking about? Where are you going? And then the second time he sat he was late, and I was like, "You're done. You're fucking dead."
• 57:44
  We obviously don't respect each other [laughs] Yeah. And we are... You know. But yeah, that was a deal breaker.
• 57:49
  To tell me that you're disappointed in me that- Well, the th- well, actually one of the things my friends and I always do, 'cause again, like our parents knew each other a- and this kind of stuff is, like comparing how we parent versus our parents.
• 58:00
  And maybe your family life was different, but we are always like, "Could you imagine like saying to your friend's parent, 'I'm disappointed in you because you didn't do this'"? They would've been like, "Get fucked."
• 58:13
  You know, I couldn't even call parents by their first names, 'cause you know, there's like a whole school parent- I still don't. I still don't. No. No. "Hello, Mr. Nester," all the time. Yeah, Mrs. Brown's mom died.
• 58:22
  Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And I, to this day I have kids call me Miss Claire, which doesn't make any sense 'cause we're not from the South. But I just, I'm like, just feels... You're not my friend. I have wiped your ass. Mm-hmm.
• 58:32
  So you have to put something in front of my name. I don't care what it is, but it's gotta be something, like a little distance. Which is not cool. Again, not, not a cool person... Yeah. It's not.
• 58:42
  I've had to have the same talk. I, I've definitely had to say to my kids sometimes, "Just so you know," and I try to do it off to the side a little bit. I'm like, "They're not your friends. I know you-" Mm-hmm.
• 58:49
  And there, uh, there's an instant of shock where I'm like, "No, no, no, they love you unconditionally almost. Probably more than I do often. But they're not your friends. They're my friends." No.
• 58:58
  So just skate on slightly better ice, you know? Yeah. Yeah. The boys are obsessed with Steve's friend Sandeep 'cause he's a little bit younger and he does kinda more cool...
• 59:08
  He plays more video games and he like rides- Mm-hmm... a one wheel. And so they just think he's the coolest guy ever. Oh, yeah, that fucker. And it's like, if he was your dad, you would hate him. Like he would...
• 59:16
  That's why he's cool is 'cause he's not your dad. He'd be horrified by him. Yeah. And Sandeep's probably got all kinds of dark shit going on. [laughs] He's fine. He's good.
• 59:24
  He's only, he's just like Steve where he's like a nice guy who got saddled with two boys and finds himself like m- raging a lot more than I think he ever thought he would.
• 59:32
  I think both guys think, "If I had a daughter, it'd be so nice and it'd be so sweet." And like instead...
• 59:37
  I'm sorry, that's just what we say like in our land over here where, you know, it's everyone's walking around in wet socks outside.
• 59:43
  Why do boys love nothing more than wearing socks outside when- And then I'll immediately say to them, I'll do a Claire drive-by parenting. Mm. I'm like, "Legionnaire's disease.
• 59:52
  These, the fuck, World War I was came down to wet socks." And they're like- Trench foot... "Can you fucking go away for five... It's like five minutes." No. All right, one more question. Does Dana have...
• 1:00:03
  This is more of a question for her. Mm-hmm. But I think about this a lot too. Does she have a lot of friends who are stay-at-home moms who quit working or who never worked? No. No.
• 1:00:11
  Her friends are either moms or they didn't have kids. Great. And, and that's 'cause they're working or they didn't find the right person or whatever it is. LA was weird in that way, you know? Yeah. But, no.
• 1:00:21
  I think about that a lot, and I have some friends who don't work anymore or who chose to.
• 1:00:26
  And it's just interesting, 'cause like I shuffle it around in my head a lot where it is, it's, I don't know, it's a kind of a feminism thing. Maybe, maybe not.
• 1:00:32
  You know, it's great to have the choice, you know, or being home- Oh, sure, totally... obviously. It can swing femi- it can go both ways.
• 1:00:38
  And she's definitely got friends like that too, are like, "I do what the fuck I want." And I've got- Yeah...
• 1:00:41
  we've got wonderful feminist friends here who, who are wonderful professionals at a v- a variety of things to do, a lot of medical stuff, who are also kinda like, "It's not just that I wanna hang out with my kids more, it's like I'm pretty burnt out on my work right now for a little bit."
• 1:00:59
  Yeah. "Maybe I would like to go to the fucking strawberry festival more often," you know? Yeah. And, and it doesn't have to be permanent, which I fully fucking get that too, man.
• 1:01:06
  And I think about that, again, I'm just like, it's almost like if I had a completely different personality, and I'm like, I wish I was someone who wanted to be home with my kids and do that stuff.
• 1:01:16
  It's not that I want to. I want to want to, you know? And I am, like I am sad. I just looked at my to-do list, and I was like, "Shit, I do have some stuff to do today."
• 1:01:23
  I was kinda thinking about doing the pool, and just like hanging out, you know? But at the same time, if I had nothing to do, and it was only the kids, I would probably be super mad. I would be unhappy no matter what.
• 1:01:32
  I think we can just agree on that, that I would find the, the bad side and be mad about whatever choice I made, 'cause I made them. Perfect. 'Cause it's what got me here. It's what we say to each other every day.
• 1:01:41
  One of us walk down the hall, we go get a coffee, "How you doing?" "Just regretting all my choices." [upbeat music] That's it for this week. You're gonna make it.
• 1:01:59
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• 1:02:09
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• 1:02:35
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