Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.393: Stem Cell Skincare Is Finally Being Done Correctly Ft. Dr Mitch Goldman of Calecim

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E.393: Stem Cell Skincare Is Finally Being Done Correctly Ft. Dr Mitch Goldman of Calecim · Skin Anarchy

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• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is your host, Ecta, and I'm very reliant, I'm very excited because we have a wonderful guest with us today.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Dr.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Goldman, um, who was recently named chairman of Khaleesim, um, which is a wonderful Kaleesim Professional, which is a wonderful skincare line.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very obviously um, like I mentioned, in rooted in medicine and science.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So uh welcome to the show, uh Doc.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be hosting you.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Great to be here.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, um, I would love to get started because I know that you are really um the dermatology, you know, like the dermatologist of dermatologists kind of thing, you know, world renowned.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I would love to learn about your career and really um where it started and how it's progressed.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, if you could just walk us down memory lane, that would be great.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's a lot to walk down, but um, you know, basic basically I started uh my dermatology career in 1986 in San Diego, California.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And over the years, I've been primarily uh interested in uh cosmetic uh dermatology, specifically the development of a variety of different lasers as well as uh techniques to help rejuvenate uh the skin.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: But um in 1990, uh I actually had a really uh interesting idea with my partner at the time, Dr.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Richard Fitzpatrick, um, because at that time, you know, there was a lot of different products that people could put on their skin.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: And all of the products that people were using at the time were basically uh they smelled really good and they felt really good, but they really didn't do much.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so Dr.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Fitzpatrick and I had this idea about starting a skincare company uh based on using like real technology, like real things that make your skin really uh better.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so the first idea we had were topical antioxidants.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was a really cool idea.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we actually started a company, uh, we named it Gioni, and it made some very nice products, and we partnered with a guy that was named John Gerudo, who is actually an incredible formulator for La Costa Spa products, which was uh very near uh one of our major offices.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it really went well, and we were selling it in our offices, and a number of our uh dermatology friends were selling it, but it really never took off.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was really interested in wound healing and in varicose veins and uh leg veins, and I started doing a study with a San Diego-based company called Advanced Tissue Sciences in 1993 on treating skin ulcers that patients with uh varicose veins and venous disease get with a product which was basically a bunch of growth factors and cytokines and exosomes uh coming from uh a culture of fibroblasts.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: And while and while it actually worked uh fairly well, not incredibly well, to uh cause skin ulcers to heal, what Dr.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Fitzpatrick and I noticed was that the skin around the ulcers uh really looked pretty good.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we basically just asked uh John Gerudo if he we could formulate some of this uh growth factor media uh into something that we could put on the skin.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then that became uh something that we named Tissue Nutrient Serum or TNS, and then we changed our company from Gioni to Skin Medica.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so we started a company called Skin Medica, which was based on uh basically the use of this growth factor media, and that was way back in 1993.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we've come a long way since then.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean I it's really interesting to me because, you know, um I just want to say this because my listeners are, you know, aware of the fact that whenever I talk about skin, I always talk about it, you know, topical products like putting a you know, growth medium in a petri dish, right?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I always tell them that, and I'm like, well, that's kind of how you should think about it.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's interesting how you're talking about actually using, you know, specifically created media that has specific growth factors in it, secreted by stem cells.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but it's just interesting that we've come to it's like full circle for me.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um I find this to be very cool.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I actually want to dive into it, really, the science.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, for everyone listening, growth factors, you know, doc, maybe you can describe it, you know, way better than I can.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could give the audience a little rundown of like what is a growth factor, how does it differ from a cytokine?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that would be a great place to start with the science.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I wish it was really easy to uh discuss, but actually it isn't.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, back in the olden days when we were just using growth factors, which the original TNS from advanced tissue sciences, it actually came from, uh, if you can believe it, the fibroblasts that came from uh an infant's foreskin.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so we were basically culturing these fibroblasts in a tissue in a culture medium.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then what happens is when those fibroblasts, which are cells that make collagen and elastic fibers and lots of other really good things under the skin to keep our skin youthful and plump, so we would just take the the media, the the stuff that the cells were growing in, and that's what we put into uh this uh compound called TNS.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: So in the beginning, we sort of didn't know exactly what what kinds of growth factors were in there, um, because we could only assay or measure or look at what we could at the time.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so there were factors that would sort of stimulate those little cells called fibroblasts to make more collagen and elastic fibers, and there were factors that would stimulate uh cells to make more blood vessels and lots of other factors that sort of would stimulate cells to be uh younger.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: But we didn't have a really good idea, and it really wasn't until recently that we now know that there are thousands and tens of thousands of different types of growth factors, and these are just little uh what we call cytokines or exosomes, they're all the same sort of thing, and they're basically little molecules that tell cells what to do, and so these are the factors that tell cells how to heal itself, um, and so how to bring in other cells to get rid of bacteria and to stimulate cells to make more collagen and stimulate cells to multiply more.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's what we were doing.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now, in the olden days, uh, we were basically just using these fibroblasts that are very easy to grow in tissue culture.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: But what makes it more interesting is it turns out that there are other cells in the body, and you mentioned like stem cells, uh, that actually put out a better or a wider variety of growth factors which turn the body on to being more youthful.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it then it turns out that you know there's lots of different kinds of stem cells.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: There's stem cells that you can harvest from your fat, and stem cells you can harvest from tissue cultures and of like skin.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: But what we found, or what not I found, but what people way smarter than me found, especially in Asia and in Singapore, that there are called mesenchymal uh cells that are formed from the umbilical cord lining.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: And these cells are probably the most potent cells that produce the widest variety and of uh of factors like what we call cytokines and exosomes and growth factors that cause the biggest amount of rejuvenation.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it, you know, when you think about it, it just makes sense, you know, because babies are being uh fed by the umbilical cord.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: And what better place to get those really uh embryonic stem cells than from the umbilical cord lining?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so that became uh a company called Callusum.
• 10:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Cell Research Corporation.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: And what they did is again, just like what we were initially doing, they used those umbilical cord lining mesenchymal stem cells.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's a lot to say in a few seconds, but they were using the growth media uh to stimulate wound healing again in people with very chronic wounds that wouldn't heal uh properly.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: And they found again that it really helped to stimulate the wound closure much, much better than what we were initially doing with those fibroblastic growth factors.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then the company in Singapore had the same idea Fitzpatrick and I had in the 1990s to not only do something that's phenomenal for people with ulcers, but to take those same growth factors and to put it into a cream to stimulate rejuvenation of the skin.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that became the callysum.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why um, but that's sort of the difference.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not that I gave up on uh skid medicas, fibroblastic growth factors, but I believe the growth factors that we can obtain from the umbilical cord lining mesenchymal stem cells are much, much more effective in rejuvenating this the skin.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the callocin product.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it makes sense.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was actually going to mention that, you know, just for my listeners, I want to just say that, you know, I've done a lot of research myself on growth factors.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the what I've found in my own research in the literature is that the growth factors that are secreted by stem cells at the earliest possible stages of life are the ones that are going to have the most widespread effects in terms of differentiation, growth, um, you know, rejuvenation.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, those are it's like the way I like to think about it is like you have this master key that opens 15 doors.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that master key, it depends on what stage of development the uh stem cells are under.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if they're at the very beginning stages, they're expressing everything because they need to express everything.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: They have to simulate every possible facet of what it takes to sustain life.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: So when you harvest stem cells from something like the umbilical cord, you are at that place because the umbilical cord, the way it forms during embryology, those are the very first ever cells that are created.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it is that tissue.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a very, very interesting concept.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And what I have found oftentimes in other brands that are also saying that they're working with growth factors is they don't, they fall short.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they fall short, um, Doc, because of what you said, which is this approach of using mesenchymal cells instead.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And also by understanding, you know, that these are going to be secreting the most potent growth factors into the medium.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, one of the other things is like, you know, uh just for our listeners, I I've also noticed that when cells mature, when they turn into mature cells, um, you know, you can call them adult cells, there it's more specific what turns them on and off.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: It gets more specific.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: It gets in the sense of like there are a lot more receptors now.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot more things happening.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's easier, I mean, to think, not easier, but it's like it's more logical to think that you want to go back to that master key, that starting point, and then utilize the things that are secreted back then because they still have memory, the cells that are adults, they still have memory of being turned on by those signals.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a very interesting concept, uh, genuinely, like, you know, by using these kind of specific uh, you know, factors secreted by those mesenchymal cells.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you put it so nicely.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, because it's so, so complex.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and especially when when there are some really nice companies that start using plant growth factors, and it's great if you're a plant, but it really doesn't do much for people that aren't plants, and then as you said, there are some really nice companies that use growth factors from adipose or fat cell-derived stem cells, and that's okay, but then exactly what you said, when you get down to the earliest, earliest form in the umbilical cord lining, those are the best.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: But to make things even more complex, you could use human umbilical cord or non-human.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we decided to do with uh callusum is to use a red deer uh umbilical cord lining.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason we do that is there are a number of uh countries which really don't allow you to use human-derived uh media or cells uh in their cosmetic products.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so we searched around and we found this herd of red deer, which was being raised in New Zealand for the sole purpose of using the fur from the antlers of the of these red deers to be an aphrodisiac that was very popular in China.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have all these deers that basically uh when the antlers fall off, they sort of take the fur and they sell it to China to try to make people sexier or something.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so all we do is we go in there and we don't harm any of the deer.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: But when the the deer makes another deer and there's like this little fawn out there, all we do is instead of allowing the mother deer to eat the umbilical cord, we just take the umbilical cord and the mother deer then eats the placenta, but she misses the umbilical cord, and because that's what we take.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it turns out that when we harvest the mesenchymal stem cells from the red deer uh umbilical cord, it has almost the exact same effect and homology and effect on tissue growth and the effect on collagen and elastic fibers as does human cells.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: And we are uh actually, this is being published in the January issue of the Journal of Drugs and Dermatology.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just you should have gone for science with that, doc.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: That is so brilliant.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, you should have gone for like nature science.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's a that's a huge, huge paper.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's congratulations.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's pretty good, but it you know, this isn't just me.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's like no one is is is doing something alone.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: We have some amazing scientists uh in Singapore and they and Vietnam, interestingly, and they are the ones that have really uh come up with this and have have brought it to the forefront.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but I'm I'm very privileged to be part of the team uh doing this work.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what, you know, Doc, I just want to say that the vision and the the level, you know, the the significance, sorry, I should say, of visionary people in science, especially medical science, as I know you know way better than I do, that is just something you cannot put any kind of dollar sign on or value on.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's invalid, it's like you, you know, what you're contributing goes far beyond just product.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like your mind and that mind and that vision and that ability to put things together.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we need more of, you know, to come into the spaces of beauty and things that are, you know, really consumer-driven areas, you know, for people to really utilize the discoveries and the innovations that are coming from minds such as yours.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm a huge believer in the, you know, we we learn, right, in medical school and our young years of academia about pioneers in medicine, and and we learn about how they just gave the world these amazing discoveries, you know, and it's like we it we waited years and years as a society to bring that to the forefront.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I really w wish we would change that culture, you know.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think dermatology is so interesting for me because I see the most like you can do it so readily in dermatology.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that you guys are putting this out there in a product and it's getting out there to people.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to me, that's as a scientist, wow, you know, hats off.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's really truly the spirit of science.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love it.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you're doing.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: But it again, it's really there, there's nothing that's a one-person thing.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about teamwork.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm just, I've just been incredibly blessed with having uh relationships with some really, really smart people.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I mean, and I appreciate your humility.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just, you know, I really want to learn more from you though about this idea of, you know, this as I'm sure you've noticed, you know, science has really been emerging in dermatology.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, um, being, you know, one of the best dermatologists in the world, like, you know, I I want to ask you, what is your viewpoint?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your perspective as you look at the you know, dermatology community, as you look at the beauty community, your skin health community, like what have you seen, you know, as like changes or like just differences that you know have really caught your eye or your attention or just you know, been really interesting to you, just as an overview.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that another great question.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I've been a dermatologist for about 40 years.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so boy, I've seen a lot of stuff.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I do use a line with many of my patients that I cannot sell you magic in a bottle.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, we're we're almost getting there where we can.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but what's really evolved uh over the last 40 years is this concept that if we want to enhance your beauty, it's not a bad thing.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because enhancing someone's beauty is basically just turning the clock back a little bit.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: And if we can continue turning the clock back, you know, we can have people look as good as they feel.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, modern medicine is pretty amazing with our ability to uh keep people really healthy until they're, you know, until they finally aren't.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, for 80, 90 years, people can be incredibly healthy, like my mom playing tennis at age 90.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's wonderful.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: And now, you know, all these 90-year-olds are playing pickleball.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's great that we're being being able to keep people more physically active and healthy, but it's always been a problem.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now you've got all this wrinkly skin and you've got all these age marks.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so in dermatology, we're able now to correct, to, to eliminate all those age marks, to minimize all those wrinkling.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so to make people's skin uh be as good as the the rest of them.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, I that's such a cool you know perspective to have.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I agree with you.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like um, you know, the the older crowd these days is younger than you know, the younger.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Crowd.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love that they're playing tennis ball and you know, all these things.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's a really, really good thing to see that people are now taking their wellness and health a lot more seriously, you know, that they than they were like a century ago, you could even say, you know, it's like we finally have come to this place, I think, as consumers, where we want to know, you know, what's going to make us healthier?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: How does the body work?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is going on?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that movement, like, I don't know, it just like I feel like when people talk about things, for example, buzzwords, like, you know, body positivity movement or you know, wellness movement, whatever, I always stop myself, you know, in my own train of thought and think, well, let's be real, all you're really talking about is utilizing science in your day-to-day, you know, but that's really what we should be preaching.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you do that, I mean, you know, as you, as any scientist knows, there's no better system, you know, that can show you how to function perfectly than the human body, you know, like that's the whole idea is to bring it to homeostasis.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when people come to me and they're like, well, I've got, like you were mentioning earlier, I've got this product derived from plants.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, why?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I understand we are talking about sustainability and like all these things, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Especially with like, you know, natural beauty, organic beauty, clean beauty.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, for me personally, I look at it and I say, if you can do something that's like not harming anything, right?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Which is what you described, you know, um, when you were explaining the process of collecting the stem cells, when you can do something like that, and it is more scientifically relevant in terms of the matching of the DNA, the matching of the genes, you know, the the proximity that that tissue has to the actual human tissue.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you can do that, why the heck do you need to go look at tree bark and be like, what are tree bark stem cells doing?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the, you know, it makes no sense.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: That just because it has to do with the tree doesn't make it green, beauty, or sustainable.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, what you described, doc, you know, with chale sum would where you're taking, you know, umbilical tissue, which by the way, is going to be discarded anyways.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's going to be uh that's sustainability, if you ask me.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's taking something that you know for a fact is going to waste and using it.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a lot of lessons, you know, when you really dig into the science.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I've noticed this across the board when I interview science-heavy brands.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: When you really dig into the science, these things like sustainability, accessibility, all these things, wash away.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like they make sense because they're built in to a really true scientific, you know, approach.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think that, you know, I like you can tell immediately is my point.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really saying it for the people listening, you know, that this is these are the kind of things that I think get me excited as a consumer is seeing brands like this.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, but um well, the the only the only disclosure I'd like to make is that although we've been harvesting the umbilical cords from this herd of red deer uh for about the last 10 years now, they they they really haven't complained about not eating the umbilical cord.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: So the red deer are doing just fine, uh, even though we've we've taken away the umbilical cord, so they can't eat that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, see, we're doing the we're doing beneficial things even for the deer.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh Doc, I want to ask you though, you know, with Khleesum's products, um, one thing I know has been buzzworthy for many months now, and I I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, is this idea of like putting your skincare in a refrigerator, which, you know, in science we do that.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: We put our medium, you know, in the uh our media in the fridge and we keep it, you know, at a certain temperature.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: But what how do you feel about that when it comes to like, you know, just how cosmetics are um kind of being marketed in terms of like, you know, should we be cooling our cosmetics?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any value in talking about those kind of things, or have we figured it out, you know, from a chemistry standpoint?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, that's a really great question.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: So the reason um that products go bad is that you have a growth of bacteria in the in the products.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so many companies will use a variety of different antioxidants, commonly vitamin E, in order to actually decrease bacterial overgrowth.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the reason we have refrigerators and we put our leftovers in refrigerators instead of leaving them in room air is again to make it so that the bacteria uh is not overgrowing.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so it just makes sense that if we were going to be using skincare products to uh put those products in the refrigerator.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, the other part of the coin is that if the products are made incredibly pure without any bacterial contamination, they can sit and they have a very long shelf life.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: And all of the callesum products are are made with what we call good manufacturing processes, they have no bacteria in them, and so they really do have a long shelf life and do not have to be refrigerated.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: But whenever we do open the products up and expose them, especially if we stick our fingers in there in order to take the product out, um, you know, you should be a little bit careful.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: So uh almost all of our calcium products are made so that they're not, we're not trying to expose them to more bacteria.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: But it just makes sense.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna put, you know, your uh fruits and vegetables in the refrigerator to keep them uh better with less bacteria, you do that with your skincare products as well.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that makes sense.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that I'm glad you clarified that about the bacteria thing because I think, yeah, that's the most logical thing I've heard about it, because you know, in terms of preservatives, you know, they will keep them fine.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: But if you are just contaminating your entire product, yeah, I it totally makes sense.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I actually wanted to ask you though, you know, in terms of like um like marketing, right, for a brand like Khaleese and like how has that been um because I know you had mentioned like, you know, very early on, you have been in this um, in this, you know, game-changing category of skincare and you've, you know, had many firsts with this.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: But as an entrepreneur, like, you know, what are some of the things you've noticed in terms of having such a uh science forward line and really getting that to people?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like what are some of the hurdles or some of the things you've noticed that are um, you know, just conversations that come up, you know, in the boardroom or something?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh the truth is the more money you spend on marketing, the better the more your products are being uh you know looked at by the public.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is it does take incredible amounts of marketing.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why your Revlons and SD Lauder probably spend 90% of the cost of what's in that bottle is spent on packaging and marketing instead of what's in the bottle.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what we decided to do um way back in 1990 when Dr.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Fitzpatrick and I founded the Skin Medical line, is we didn't we didn't have the money to do you know this marketing.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we decided to do is scientific studies.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: And we basically would do you know FDA-approved research studies that were published in peer-reviewed medical journals.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: So what we were doing is trying to show that, hey, instead of doing like full-page ads in Vogue and you know, commercials on TV using movie stars to hawk our products, we were just gonna do the real medical scientific research and publish it in real medical journals that are peer-reviewed by our peers uh to get the word out.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it was slow.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and to be extremely honest with you, the only reason Skin Medica took off in the 1990s was we did have some high-profile movie stars and models uh use the product.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how they got the product and started telling their friends, and that's how this skin medica really took off.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, but what we're doing with Calisum, we don't have any big models or any or movie stars using the product.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Again, we're we're doing the same model we did with Skin Medica.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're basically doing the science, we're doing the research, we're doing the publications, and then hopefully, you know, we'll get a movie star or two to to like the products, and then it'll take off.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, calling all movie stars.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's get this going, guys.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I I mean, honestly, I I hear you though, and I love what you said.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: I am such a fan of what you said, which is pour money into the science.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: The science is like, and you know, what's crazy is a lot of people don't know is that you know, for everyone listening, it costs a lot of money to publish papers, by the way, guys.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like all the all the stuff that you know goes on in labs and stuff, it is a really expensive business to run a laboratory and then to submit your papers.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I I get it.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is, in my opinion, the best way to you know go about it too.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can get the science community on board, I feel like you can win over anybody because we never agree on anything.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: So if you if you look at the really successful medical uh skincare products like uh skid medica and skin pseudocals, that's how both of those companies did it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it it it's for me as a physician scientist, it's a lot of fun to actually go to the lab and prove what you're thinking is actually working.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you're exactly right, Geta.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's like instead of spending the million dollars on getting some model to to uh hawk your product, I'd rather spend that million dollars in the lab uh trying to figure out why is this product so good and how can we even make it better.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I that's exactly why your products work, you know.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm I'm glad that you know we can actually share that with people now.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I really like seeing that as you know, a consumer, as someone part of the science community.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I like seeing science becoming cool, you know, we're seeing a lot more people like being curious about well, what is a scientific paper?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: What is a double blind clinical study?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like the the whole thing.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I I really like seeing that come to the limelight and for people understanding that there's a lot that goes into this stuff and you should be asking these, you know, questions for all of our listeners out there, you know, um, the kind of conversations we have here, you know, what we've been talking about this past hour, like, you know, these are the things that you should be talking uh to yourselves or to your friends or your whoever it is that you make decisions with about, because, you know, the more consumers are aware, the more we can get done.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because half the hurdle I've noticed is when you discover something in the science realm, it takes so long to get it to you guys in a way where it goes viral that it kind of leaves us, you know, in a place of just, well, how much should we really release?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because are people actually gonna buy it?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: So to solve that bridge and to bridge that gap, really, what I should say, um, is you know, become informed.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Go look up journal articles, go to PubMed, you know, and search your own stuff.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find everything you're looking for.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I really urge everyone listening to do that.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, I just wanted to say, you know, doc, thank you so much.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is such a uh, you know, wonderful opportunity for me.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love speaking to, you know, people that really know their stuff, and you know, you're the epitome of that.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for this.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: This has been wonderful.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's been a pleasure, and I really appreciate you being able to, you know, in quotations, dummy this down so that we so that it it really I can understand even better when you uh put it in in the words that you did.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for uh having me on your segment.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you so much.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone listening, um definitely check out the brand.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be linking everything about Khaleesum in the art for this episode, as well as, you know, we will have a medium story or a summary of the episode to go along with it, which will include all links to products, the brand, everything.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: So please, I really urge all of you make sure you're subscribed to our medium and also our email list because we do send out updates about every episode.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, check out the brand.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is something to really invest in for everyone listening.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, and I will be back next time.
• 34:51
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• 35:58
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