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Can Psychedelics Open a Door to the Demonic? Shawn Ryan’s Story · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Joshua Lewis.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm joined today with Michael Roundtree.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about Sean Ryan's experience in deliverance, but also uh an encounter that was uh demonic in nature that seems to have drawn him closer and closer to Christ.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be an interesting program.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: You guys stay tuned.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Guys, thank you so much for tuning back in to this program.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're watching clips from the Sean Ryan show.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, technically, uh he was interviewed on another podcast, but he's he republished it on his own channel, uh, talking about his own experience with uh hallucinogens, because there is a very growing trend, if you don't already know, of using hallucinogens such as psilocybin, ibogaine, uh, various compounds that have some kind of DMT aspect to it, like ayahuasca, uh, as a treatment.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And right now, uh, FDA has not totally approved those sorts of treatments outside of experimental ranges.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So people are running to Mexico, getting treatments from shamans, finding places where uh someone here in the states will administer it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh it's a wild kind of experience because there are a lot of positive uh encounters that people are having, breaking addictions, uh, you know, suicidal rates, depression rates being changed overnight, it seems, uh, because of the use of these sorts of drugs.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: We've done an entire episode on the use of hallucinogens uh for Christians.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can go back into the archives, go up to Remnant Radio, hit the little search icon, and check out some of those prior videos.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: But today we're gonna be tackling some of the specifics surrounding the Sean Ryan uh situation.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he's running a lot to Roman Catholic Exorcists uh to get deliverance from this sort of thing.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been a very interesting journey.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, looking forward to talking about it today.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as I said at the top of the show, I've got Michael Roundtree in Oklahoma City with me today, um, and every day uh that we do live content.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Michael, uh, you looking forward to this program?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: What are you looking forward to?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, I respect Sean Ryan a lot just as a podcaster.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: He's really good at what he does, he has fascinating conversations, and I like how real he is.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's probably part of his appeal, is he's just honest.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, I did this thing, got in some trouble, and just really walks through it.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it's kind of fun to see his faith journey as well.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so I really like Sean Ryan and his and his podcast overall.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I think it's interesting just because a lot of people are exploring this space.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's a lot more openness to like when I was growing up, it was like I I mean, obviously, you always have drug people who use drugs and weed and all the things, but weed was weed was in the like totally it was almost in the same category as hard drugs in terms of how it was viewed.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: Now people knew it was different, but it was like it was really bad.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: But now everyone's like, yeah, legalize it, legalize weed, legalize drugs, you know, uh, and all these different uh psychedelics that we've been talking about.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: There's been a a renewed interest in those things, acceptance of them.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: And at the same time, and we've done uh gosh, Josh, at least one episode on uh on psychedelics, but it's it's an important thing because that there are, like you said, positive benefits.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I really like how how Sean talks about both the good and the bad.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it's quite interesting that that he's like essentially you get crucified if you talk about the bad.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: But well, I don't want to jump or uh uh jump in too much, but I I'm excited about this episode because I I really think it there's some valuable topics that are brought up.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do too, and I I I have immense respect for Sean, uh, the work that he's doing with veterans, trying to get them help.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's been a real proponent of using psychedelics, um, which I've always been a little bit cautious of.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: You you can see video content of us talking about this in the past.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I love some of the experimental conversations around using uh modified versions of these drugs that could potentially have the same neuroplasticity uh experience within the individual while not giving them the trip.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: It is the trip side of things that I'm a little bit more concerned about from a spiritual perspective.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Sean's gonna talk about that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna give us a springboard to talk about all kinds of things around this area.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but all that to say, really enjoy Sean's uh content.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sean uh is a former service member, so uh he is going to be a real down-to-earth kind of guy.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, in these clips, uh, I didn't bleep it.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So uh there may be a few choice words.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you've got little kids with you in the car, there's not a ton of it.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's real minor uh on the cursing scale.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but all that to say that if you're out there and uh you're you know watching the program live, you got kids in the car, there is going to be some of that.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's unedited.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh without further ado, Roundtree, do you think we can uh we can jump into these clips or should we wait on anything?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let's jump in.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're ready.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, clip number one.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And around that time, you did I began treatment, which I'm somewhat familiar with just after that time, because I worked in psychedelics for a couple of years.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, a year while you worked with psychedelics?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I worked in psychedelics in the industry.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I just when I was between leaving my first company and really starting this podcast, I did a year in working in a psychedelics business.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting stuff was focused on mental health.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: So Ibogaine was one of the uh therapies that I came across and studied and saw the uh huge uh efficacy around addiction.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So but I've actually never met anybody that did ibogaine.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember at the time when I was working in psychedelics, they they told me that there was this thing called ibogaine you could take.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was quite a intense treatment, quite a long treatment.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: But there are several cases where people do one dose of ibogaine in a therapeutic setting and their addiction is cured.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was told, and I was like, this is crazy.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you you you did ibogaine, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: I did ibogaine, done twice now.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, the first time was amazing.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: I went down there and actually th that was actually after I'd started the podcast.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: I have a feeling we're very similar.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: You probably wrap your entire life up into what you're doing.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we were having I had a a six-month-old at the time, my son, and I wasn't present with him because my mind was always in business.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's just all I thought about was business, business, business, the podcast business.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: I needed something to s to slow my mind, you know, so that I could be in the moment and actually be present with my with my wife and with my son.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I went down there to be in the moment.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: That was it.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like help me compartmentalize or manage business stress because so many opportunities are coming.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: And if you you know the deal, you feel it's like, do I need to do all these opportunities?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Are these all opportunities all good for whatever?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Am I a fool if I turn this down?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I went down there for that, and when I came out of it, had no interest in drinking again.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: I quit quit all the sleep medications, I'd quit the Adderall, and it was effortless.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was effortless.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I was able to be present uh with my wife and son.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And where do you find yourself today as it relates to alcohol, the substances we've talked about, and your mental health?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've never been better.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I haven't had a drop in over four years.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't take sleeping medications, I don't take Adderall, I don't I have I actually have no vices.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: None.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's the first clip.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh talking about his positive experience, we're gonna go back into uh later clips that are going to talk about more of a negative experience.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to tee off the discussion a little bit talking about Christian ethics when it surrounds medicine, um, because this hallucinogenic practice is typically being categorized as medicinal use and as trans uh transist trans what's the word I'm looking for uh transitioned, there it is, uh, from the position of uh this is a recreational, fun time, spiritual experience into something that is used medicinally uh to help people with PTSD.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't rec I don't see it in this video for sure, but I was under the impression at some point in time Sean uh was using this to treat that, and it certainly has been used to treat vets um experimentally uh for for certain.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but Michael, uh maybe maybe start us off, talk a little bit about uh medical use, how you see that kind of thing.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I think that a case can be made for uh I mean most people are okay with some kind of drug for medical usage.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, in the old days, they just you know give somebody some alcohol.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh maybe that you know that developed over time into morphine.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and so there is some case for this.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: If we want to make a biblical case and look through a little bit of history and how this has been viewed, I don't think it's as simple as like just saying never use any kind of drug.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm using drug in the broadest sense of the word, uh, because uh most people uh anyway, let me just explain from the scripture.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: So Proverbs 31, it says, verses four through seven, it is not for kings, O Lemiel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed, and pervert the rights of the afflicted.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those who are in bitter distress.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: Let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the there is a challenging aspect of this because it it almost sounds like it's saying, Yeah, just drink your sorrows away, which is a horrible life advice.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, who would ever tell somebody that?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: But I think what what we want to focus on here is really kind of back up for a moment and and what what is happening?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: What's happening is that the same passage is forbidding and permitting alcohol usage.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily it doesn't say make the person drunk.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: It it says give strong drink to, give wine to, uh, but it doesn't say make them drunk.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think that is an important element because moderation is one of the standards that we would use for ethics.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like for instance, you know, Paul will say in Ephesians 5.18, do not get drunk with wine, which leads to debauchery.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean he's not saying never, he's not advising being a teetotaler.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: And Jesus himself will say, you know, he turns the water into wine in Cana.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: And the guy actually remarks, You saved your best wine for last.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: Usually they go the opposite way because you get drunk on the uh you know, you get drunk on the good stuff, and then you kind of give them the bad stuff after.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: And he's like, You've kind of reversed this.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I was in a Southern Baptist church in college, and they're like, Oh, it wasn't real alcohol.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's no way he would have said that if it was not real alcohol, if it was just like highly diluted wine that was like not didn't have any effects.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: No, it definitely had effects.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: So uh so I don't think we can make a make a case that like if it has an effect, it's sinful.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think we can say that.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and what we can say, at least from this passage, is that there are certain contexts where teetotaler uh for Lemul, the king, is advisable and certain contexts where it's not.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think just applying that broad framework to just drugs generally, I think would be worth considering.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: We can also look at how the rabbis read this passage, Josh.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you want to uh unpack that part.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, in short, the way that the rabbis uh uh take this passage to mean is that when when medicinal when medicine or when wine is used medicinally for an individual to get well and to be whole, um, it is generally a good and acceptable sort of thing.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the idea that one would uh mix myrrh into a drink uh as an anesthetic uh to prevent pain, as a painkiller, those sorts of things was was viewed as an acceptable approach uh to the use of medicine.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And this is why this is important, is because all the New Testament is pretty consistent on this subject.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's not anti-alcohol, it is pro-sober-mindedness.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's the reason that the king was told, hey, you probably shouldn't give yourself to strong drink, uh, because in doing so, you will not have sound judgment.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: However, that same strong drink can be administered to a person in pain because uh it alleviates their pain, um, even if they've lost sober-mindedness temporarily for the sake of medicinal purposes.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, the the scriptures are not saying, hey, let's get blastered, let's have fun.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: The scriptures are pointing to a direction of, hey, this can be used as a way to relieve pain.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: I point to the same kind of argumentation when we talk about opioids or the use of medical marijuana.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, painkillers are pretty well accepted in all church practices that I'm aware of.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's certainly some that would be hard-lined against it, uh, any use of medicine.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: But for those who accept the use of medicine, they would say, hey, yes, you get a high from an opioid, uh, but it's for the purpose of painkilling, it's not recreational purpose, we would find that to be an acceptable use of an opioid.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would then say uh a use of like a medical marijuana, a THC gummy is going to be way, way less addictive, way, way less harmful because opioids have ruined people's lives, even when it was used only for the purpose of medicinal uh application.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm looking at the context of I must be sober-minded as a um an overarching biblical truth that is true, there may be exceptions to that when trying to medicate against pain uh or for medicinal purposes to help the body, I go, okay, that could be an exception.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: The reason that that's important is because it's going to trail into the conversation of uh hallucinogens, because I actually think that there's a larger leap that you have to make.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not comfortable saying that hallucinogens are of the same kind of caliber of the sober-mindedness that we would get uh in the argumentation of like painkillers.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's something else going on there.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh early church history seems to agree with this.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: We had some early church fathers who have written on things like anesthesia.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Basil the Great taught in his uh uh monastic rules that God gave medicine to heal disease.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And while all healing still comes from God, uh he built hospitals in Caesarea.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Gregory Nazienzis uh praised that work uh in 379.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the the kind of conversation around uh medicinal use to numb pain is not inherently evil or wrong.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but things digress a little bit further.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna punt it back over to Michael for further more commentary on on framing the medical conversation.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, I want to start maybe like per on a personal note, and then maybe I'd I'd like to distill the principle a little bit and walk through sort of a numbered list of ways to think about this to, as you said, frame it.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: So on a on a personal level, I remember so I had this like horrible, horrible chest cough.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I mean it was a number of years ago now.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but it it was one of those that like lingered for a long time.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh one time somebody like so somebody said to me, Well, man, I know exactly what will help you with that.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: And he recommended a particular narcotic.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, You just talk to your doctor, they'll prescribe you that for sure.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, Okay, yeah.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I went to my doctor and my doctor, yeah, no problem.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm prescribed this all the time for cough.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh, you know, especially if it's like a lingering kind like this.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I, you know, so I was prescribed a narcotic.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: I I took like one spoonful or whatever it whatever it uh recommended, I can't remember now.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and and so I took it, and dude, I'm not gonna lie to you.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: My head was swimming like nobody's business.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: I I felt like I was, I don't know, skating on the Milky Way.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: I I mean, I I was just like, now I'll tell you what, it did remove the cough and it removed it immediately.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: One little sip of this medication, the cough was immediately gone.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: But I was so uncomfortable with what was actually happening, I just decided I'd rather cough than have to deal with it with this.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so there is like the the reason I share that story is we can try to distill this perfectly into when's an acceptable situation and when's not.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like mine was actually an acceptable situation.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: It was prescribed by a doctor.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: I took the right dose.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: It was in moderation.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's proven to help with this specific condition.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like every box was checked, and yet it messed me up so bad.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I'm not gonna do this.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll give you frame, but at the same time, you also have to maybe use your just rational mind, use your, you know, like Galatians 5, walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: And there is this element of like Paul's speaking about ethical codes here, and walking by the spirit is his cure.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like, as I'm like listening to the spirit and walking with God, I'm I did not feel comfortable with that.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think you have to pay attention to that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's a little more subjective than what we're trying to provide here, which is a more objective frame.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I like to marry those two together.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Subjective, walk by the spirit, objective, uh, this frame that I'll provide here.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: So the principle distilled.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna read a little bit here.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: Number one, we've kind of hit on these, but I just want to make it real clear.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Number one, if the purpose is healing, not pleasure or escape.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: Number two, a physic physician prescribes the medication for medical purposes.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Number three, no less impairing treatment, uh, no less impairing treatment works as well.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, if you can go find a better medication, uh find a medication that's not impairing you in those crazy ways and it's working just as well, you go with that one.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Number four, it doesn't keep you from your duties to God, family, and neighbor.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: That I I think does border on the subjective side, but you know, I'll I'll be honest, you know, Sean Ryan talks about being more present as a result of that drug.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: I was I was in la la land as a result of this one.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh number five, it isn't tied to a religious rite or search for spiritual contact, top contact.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's the pharmacaea line in uh Galatians 5.20 and Revelation 18.23.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so this this connection with a Greek word that means sorcery, but it's the same word from which we derive our term, uh, pharmacy.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so there, you know, the argument is often made like, hey, that that etymology of the word there is not incidental.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, in ancient times, they would use these drugs just as they did do today in order to have spiritual experiences.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's not a good thing.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's how uh that's how I would walk through maybe the uh the framing of this principle.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: You have anything to fill in there, Josh, that I missed?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: There should be something that's mentioned.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're using this as a kind of wisdom principle when we talk about a physician prescribed for medical purposes.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, right now there are physicians that will prescribe you all sorts of things, and just because they'll do it doesn't make it right.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for example, abortion can be prescribed by a doctor, but we would both stand here and go, the doctor's moral compass is not what sets morality as a standard.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think what we're saying here is one, when it comes to dosages, um, it's important that there is a medical practitioner who is aware of dosages.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, you go to a shaman in Mexico, you you might be taking 10 times what you need to be taking to uh have whatever medicinal therapy that is taking place.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And from what I understand, they are trying to use the minimum dosages possible uh in clinical trials so that they can test what is actually happening.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Sean Ryan, some of his experiences, both the first one and the last one, I I've heard him describe them in some great detail.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: They, you know, uh have a lot of convulsing and shaking and muscle tremors and those sorts of things when he's taking these narcotics.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I would suspect that he is taking way more uh than he is supposed to be.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I say supposed to be as a general term to say that like uh again, some alcohol could be a permissible, tons and tons of alcohol would be impermissible.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh moderation.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Someone did ask uh in in the the the the comment section, uh roll them bones uh wanted to know, hey, does this apply to medical marijuana, not medical marijuana, but I would imagine he's more asking the question about uh recreational marijuana uh with uh alcohol, if if moderation is the approach, uh we would say on the program, no, um, because uh you can drink and not get drunk, but you cannot smoke and not get high, right?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is a that is the the efficacy, the point of the thing is to uh to have the high experience uh from that.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: So uh when it comes to like THC gummies and the same, uh I would put those in the category of abstinence for the Christian outside of uh medical exemptions on that take.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So so Michael walked through five points.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh purpose is healing, not for pleasure or escape.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Physician is gonna prescribe this.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: The reason that we would use that as dosage, uh as a as a reason of a wisdom principle.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, no less uh impairing, uh no less uh impairing treatment works as well.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: So again, if I had to pick between an opioid and a THC gummy, I'm gonna say chew up, right?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh go go for the gummy because it's less impairing, it's less harmful over time.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: I want to choose the absolute best medication uh for that given situation.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't keep you from your duties to God, family, and neighbor, uh, and it isn't uh a religious rite uh or act of worship to a false god.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: The reason I would just remind you of those is because we can look through Sean's um uh experience here as a case study and point to say some of this lines up, but others don't line up.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, he was going down there for medical purposes to be present with his family, uh, to not have his mind constantly obsessed with business sorts of things, and it seemed like his relationship with family got better.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: So positive, we don't have to pull punches on that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um the results really seem to work.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's tons of studies that have shown a massive decrease for PTSD victims.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's a clinic in Mexico through Vets uh that Sean went to, and the PTS symptoms in that region of the case studies they've done had the the percentage fell 88% on PTSD symptoms.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: 87% on depression, 81% on anxiety within a month after taking.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the the statistic that he brought up that people are taking ibogaine and are instantly kicking addictions, that is a true study.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tons of research have has been backing that sort of research.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we would say, yeah, it does seem to have a positive effect.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here on the podcast, we always say things like, yeah, just because it works doesn't make it good.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we still have a question about morality, but it is, it is a functionally good treatment and that it's working.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um good, again, not morally, but good as an efficacious.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's heading into uh regulative medicine.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it is moving its way.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, even though a doctor did not prescribe this experience, uh, I am not shocked in the next five years uh that this is going to be legalized.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think the Christian worldview needs to be wrestling with this now because it's going to become more and more pro prominent uh in the West as people are picking up on it more and more.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, do you wanna do you want to pick up on on where some of this breaks down or do you have any kind of feedback on what I've shared there?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I I think that for me, what's uh difficult about a psychedelic, and we've kind of touched on this, it's this it's the spiritual side effect, where the trip is the treatment.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: And if you compare that with um, if you compare that with, for instance, like a painkiller, the the high is a side effect, it's not the treatment.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: But here it's the treatment, and then you're suddenly where whereas the painkillers are like dulling your pain, the psychedelics are less of a dulling and more of an opening.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: And what's scary is that it's opening you to spiritual experiences.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: So people report like traveling outside their body and they're going into the stars and they're meeting gray elvish creatures, and uh, and these beings provide them with a new view on life.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like these are spiritual experiences, that's what's happening.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh and so even like in Sean's trip and what he talked about, it did have spiritual content.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: He talks about like, you know, going to hell, and uh, you know, like if you get a vision of hell or of heaven or or whatever, like if it comes from God, you know, great, and God just naturally gives it.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: But part of the essence of sorcery, of anything that is occultish, is that it relies on an object to produce a spiritual experience.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: So if you look in Acts, uh, I think it's 19, yeah, where they where they burn, maybe it's 18 or 19, I can't remember which right now, but they they burn like their amulets and everything that they had for Artemis.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and Ephesus was especially known for its sorcery and practices.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so they burned their spell books, they burned everything, and uh, and response to this overcoming, so like their expression of repentance was burn it down, like get rid of all the magic and all the sorcery and all the cult.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and if the reaction is instead, let's let's actually toy with it, let's kind of try to play around with this and see where it goes.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, uh, that that's really scary.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the thing about, you know, Sean, he had like a good motivation.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: He wanted to be present.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: And usually, like if somebody's taking painkillers or one taking alcohol, you know, drinking alcohol in excess or whatever it is, they're trying to, they're trying to be absent.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: They're trying to escape.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: He's trying, saying, I'm trying to be more present.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and so it's like the motivation was good, but it didn't change the fact that he still toyed with the supernatural and has been walking uh a dark path ever since, he describes in his interviews.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: So uh so I I think that does show the danger of it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'd be very cautious of this.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: Josh, where I think is a wrestle for me is like looking at the efficacy, because you know, being a pastor, I've worked with so many like very depressed people, uh worked with people who have horrific PTSD.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: I have a real heart for veterans who are walking through that because it's just the the things that they've seen are just so unspeakable, and then they carry that and it affects the rest of their lives.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, man, if there was this pill drug, or you know, if there was some kind of drug that they could take that would make that go away, how wonderful would it be?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I feel like I'd feel I'd be more comfortable in the micro dose territory.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't know, I'd love to explore that with you a little bit, Josh.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: I yeah, I want people to have that benefit because my heart breaks for them.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: I certainly would want to go first to the power of prayer, you know, where you uh you look in like the Old Testament, where uh was it Asa who became diseased in his feet at the end of his life, if I recall correctly, uh one of the Israelite kings, and I think it was Asa.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: It was a great king overall, but then he went went bad like most of them did, all pointing to Jesus, who never went bad.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: But uh got diseased in his feet, and the chronicler says that he he looked to the physicians instead of to the instead of to Yahweh, uh, which is not the Bible's way of saying don't get medical help, because so many other passages do speak of medical help.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Even Isaiah's prophecy to Hezekiah, and it involved placing a boil upon uh or like a what a concoction of some co point on his boil, whatever it was.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: But uh it was like a medical, like by prophetic revelation, he m gave a medical treatment.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then you see in Paul saying, take a little wine for your stomach's sake.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: So that was that was a medical treatment of the day.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Luke was a physician, medicine's good, but it's not good when we replace God with medicine, that's bad.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's what Asa did at the end of his life.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: And and so the chronicler says that that wasn't good.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm kind of like I'm trying to talk, Josh.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to talk through this like, man, I love that somebody who like a vet who had horrible PTSD could maybe pull through uh with the help, uh, even if it's with the help of a drug, uh, and yet this like extremely, extremely discomfort, like extreme discomfort and even just feeling that it's wrong to do something that would give you a spiritual experience to help you.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we have to be careful here because just because something works doesn't mean it's good.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean Moses was supposed to speak to the rock, instead, he struck it, water still came out, it worked, but it was sinful.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Just because something works doesn't mean it's not sinful.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and if a sinful thing works, it quit it only scare quote works, right?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because like again, Sean Ryan, he was more attentive to his family and demons visited him.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, right?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: So it's uh what's our definition of work here?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's maybe think more holistically in terms of long game as to whether something quote works.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: So anyway, those are some things that I'm just kind of thinking out loud about.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd love to wrestle through some of it with you.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that some of these drugs are promising.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that as a Christian, thinking that they are going to be able to remove the uh hallucinogenic effect of these things, while some argue that the hallucinogenic effect is the thing that actually makes this potent.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna argue at this from both sides.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh first, when I say there is advancement right now, um uh the UC Davis uh uh built this uh kind of mice experiment because mice have similar uh uh cognitive abilities, wiring um biologics, you know, that we do a lot of testings on.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, uh I'm not using correct words here.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but they gave these uh mice uh uh a specific uh hallucinogen that removed the actual hallucinogen from ibogaine.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a new compound, it's ibogaine, but minus the hallucinogen, and we're able to administer this to mice.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And after the mice had built up uh addictions to alcohol, heroin, those sorts of things, uh, these mice then abstained from after receiving this drug.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think that with uh experimentation and and playing with some of those agents, it's possible we could see a drug emerge that could actually care for those individuals.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've also heard that some people are considering GOP1s as a way, because GOP1s seem to have this effect on the body and the mind that causes them to not have desire.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't love that because there are other desires and motivations and drives in uh our uh internal world that we actually need.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: We need to have a drive for family and intimacy with our spouse.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: We need to have drive for um, you know, success in business.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when you start taking some of these GOP ones, it can actually numb all of those desires.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, I would say, uh, more on the dangerous spectrum of things, and it affects everyone's body differently.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: But nevertheless, it's totally possible that uh there could be pharmaceuticals that are used to do that very thing, and I'm hopeful for it.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: While simultaneously acknowledging, I do think that this is a attempt to replace God in some meaningful sense.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Some people who are listening who aren't believers are gonna go, this is Josh, you're over your skis here.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: But just hear me out.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I did a lot of work with Teen Challenge, and Teen Challenge is a faith-based rehab program, and they were showing me statistics that faith-based rehab programs are more successful than therapeutic methods that are divorced from any kind of theistic approach.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason being is that people need to have an existential sort of encounter with the divine in order to transcend the nagging, constant uh uh addiction that is being present before them.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be an internal addiction when it comes to self-hatred, loathing, those sorts of things, but it could also be uh an addiction that is using wine, narcotics, this this kind of I said wine, alcohol, narcotics, those sorts of things.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So um I I that kind of transcendent experience is what people are running to this drug for, is to have an encounter with divine.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh I'm gonna pull I'm gonna butcher the name of this uh um it's it's uh DMT, but it's like M-O- Yeah, 5MEO DMT.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is a specific uh delivery method uh of DMT, which is uh a chemical that causes you to actually do the hallucinating there.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but that one in particular is called the um uh the God molecule.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because when you take that, it cures you of atheism because you're encountering the supernatural, you're encountering the divine.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and when you talk to Sean Ryan, uh his very first interview that I'm aware of, uh episode 24 of the Sean Ryan show, he talks about his encounter uh with shaking the hand of God, not literally, but like just feeling this immense light and love and acceptance, and then like having someone with him that had deceased, he's in this presence and he just knows that he's there.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a pretty tremendous spiritual experience.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that seems to be the thing that centers people on being outside of themselves, seeing the greater storyline, etc.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: But many of them come away with very different experiences of the divine, talking to metal gray, you know, elvish beings in the sky that give them secret wisdom and help them, you know, reframe their whole lives.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and those kinds of spiritual experiences are the ones that God is offering humanity.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we are going to another source to find those sorts of things.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: We mentioned a moment ago uh the use of narcotics.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: We mentioned Galatians chapter 5, uh 19 through 21.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: The word there, Paul's gonna say a bunch of things impurity, sexuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strive, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissension.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's talking about the the lust of the flesh.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: They're evident.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those words that he uses there is the word for sorcery, and the word is pharmacia.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that is some kind of mind-altering hallucinogen that causes a sort of trip.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's very possible that Paul was speaking against secret societies.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's a specific secret society in the first century called the uh the Dionysian mystery cult, uh, and this is a cult that surrounded secret rituals.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: They drank this cup of wine that had some kind of hallucinogen in it, and people would trip out.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's very possible that Paul is thinking of that.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: He could also be thinking of the oracles of Delphi.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, in Acts 16, he cast a spirit out of a slave girl who has a python spirit.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that language of Python goes back to the Oracle of Delphi, where Apollo, a false god, killed a dragon, a python spirit.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and the remains of that uh demon are kind of emerging up from the uh the ground, and the oracle of Delphi was built on top of that, this temple.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: And to this day, we see some geological uh anomalies where it's possible that there are gases that were being released that caused these priestesses to get high and from this altered high state uh begin to prophesy.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and anyway, it's just interesting.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that these things are likely connected, but but the focus I see of Paul and of you know Peter in in 1 Peter 5, 8, he tells us to be sober-minded, be watchful.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Your adversary, uh, the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: When we are willfully getting into an altered state where we aren't sober-minded, we're just like being led along by whatever is going on around us.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think the enemy uses opportunities like that to take advantage of us.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, my take on this is hey, I'm glad that it had a positive effect for Sean and many other vets.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not saying that you're gonna get demonized doing this one time, but I'm also saying I do think that this is a spiritual thing that is uh dangerous.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're gonna hear Sean talk about that in his own words here in a moment.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, I rambled quite a bit there, buddy.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I I deeply apologize.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, when you talk about, I'm not saying you'll be demonized after one time.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the same is true of kind of any sin, just about, is that you're not like guaranteed demonized, but you do open the door to it.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, anytime you give yourself over to sin, you uh open doors to the demonic.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh, the I talk about like having holes in our armor.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, some people uh that's a reference to the armor of God for spiritual warfare in Ephesians 6.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Other people will talk about open doors to the demonic.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so, for instance, in uh 1 Samuel 18, Sam uh it's Saul turns a jealous eye toward David, and it says, From that day forward, a harmful spirit from the Lord came upon him, uh, from the Lord in the sense that God was sovereign over it.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: Probably it's part of his judgment over Saul, but it and at the end of the day, it opens a door to this demonic harmful spirit to him, jealousy.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: And any sin can do that.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: Ephesians 4, 26 and 27, not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil a foothold.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: So this can happen with any kind of sin.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: And the way I talk about it is like if you live in a dangerous neighborhood and you leave your door unlocked, you might not get robbed on the first night, although you might.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: If you live your, you know, if you go a long time without your door locked in a dangerous neighborhood, you almost certainly are going to get robbed.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so any one time though can do it.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh I think that danger goes up the more dangerous the neighborhood is that you're living in.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: So in this case, toying with psychedelics, I would call a very dangerous neighborhood.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Same idea with like Ouija boards and seances and those kinds of things.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: Usually, usually the the demon comes in through that kind of door.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I would put psychedelics in that same kind of neighborhood, the spiritual experiences, that part is uh is real concerning.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I would be interested in further evidence and research on the micro dosing.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: That might be a great solution.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: But I I love what you said, Josh, about like the you know, the faith-based rehabs.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's a reason why uh, you know, the AA book, the it's called the big book, why so many of its steps talk about God in some way or another in the spiritual life and surrender to a higher power because you you have to admit that you don't have the strength to do this.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: You need someone, something outside of yourself.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, Bill Wilson was a born-again Christian, had a radical encounter with the Lord, and that's how he got off alcohol.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so we as Christians do have access to a power that's much better than ayahuasca, I can never pronounce it quite right, or any of these others.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's not to diminish that that God can use certain drugs, as we've talked about in the right kinds of contexts and the certain kind of frames and guidelines we put in place.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Really, really nervous about those that overtly cause spiritual experiences, and that the spiritual experience itself is the treatment to me that sounds like sorcery.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's an open door in a dangerous neighborhood.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't do it.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: Microdose, I'd be real curious about that.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and I think the other thing is I just want to say, especially to those with PTSD, it's veterans I have a special uh compassion for.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: In addition, just anyone who's been in through any kind of family trauma.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: I just have known people with PTSD and uh ministered to them, and it is brutal.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: And just want to express my my compassion for them.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: And even though even if I haven't met you before, it's just I know that's real serious, and I know that's why this is a wrestle for you.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not up here trying to sit on some ivory tower and pronounce what you can, you know.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like I do have a belief about what's ethical and what's not on this very issue, but I I I'm not on an ivory tower doing.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just trying to interpret the Bible and wrestle with some difficult things.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're wrestling through some difficult stuff too, and hopefully we can be of help there.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: But I do think that that there is an availability in Christ to overcome some of these things that we're seeking to overcome, and including PTSD.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: So um anyway, I think that's that's what I would maybe fill in or finish with.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if we're coming up on time for conclusion of this episode, but I did want to express that word of compassion to the to those suffering from PTSD.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's right, that's right.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, Michael, we've got tabs on the left.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: That was just clip one.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: I got five clips in here.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we we did a great job making time.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: The next clip uh is gonna, we're gonna move faster through these.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: This was the biggest clip as it related to our response.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um when we work when we when we work through these, uh clip number two um is gonna be, I think, showing how the initial effect was I want to be well, I'm broken.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then clip two, it it transitions from a medical use um to more of a sorcery use.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean to say this of Sean.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I have immense respect for the guy.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think he's thinking he's doing this when he's doing it, but I think it would be the way that the Bible actually frames it because he's going to these various trips on various substances as an attempt to gain insight, to gain knowledge about the future.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's really interesting.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: So let's check out clip number two.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Has it changed you?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: That second Yes.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's changed a lot of things.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: I saw you had uh Dr.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Huberman on you know the other day.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: He was talking about his faith and all that stuff, and and I'm on my faith journey as well.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: And but you know, one thing is when it comes to psychedelics, is I've done Ibis Gang twice, I've done psilocybin a handful of times, I've done Five MEO a handful of times.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I got so much out of the first one and I had a br a very healthy respect.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I would really prepare for them.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then I forced myself to kind of get looser with it because I I saw all these other people doing it, and and I would get these answers to things.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, really tough business decisions or or something that, you know, might seem really uh beneficial to you, but you don't understand why it's happening, or you think there might you think there might be something else behind it.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I would do maybe a psilocybin journey and think on that and and it would be like everything became clear.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like all of it.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: You could see what the motivations are behind the person that wants to do business with you.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: You could see the thing over here that's gonna happen if you if you take that that step and and commit, or maybe you see what happens if you don't.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: It would be like problem solved.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and this has happened multiple times, and not just with business, with family, with relationships, with with friends.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: You would be able to piece together uh these super complex problems and and and and it would make sense, and I believe it was real.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: But also at the same time, I believe that and I always hit up, I believe that you are potentially opening yourself up to a spiritual realm that maybe we should not have access to.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that's something that I always took very seriously.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Even when I did loosen up, I would always pray before it.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And as my journey through Christianity became stronger and stronger, I would take it more and more seriously, you know, the praying before and during.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the rest of that clip.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: We've got we've got a few other ones that we can share because he's gonna tell about some of his traumatic um uh experiences on the the back end of the most recent uh trip he went on.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but I just want you to notice how it escalated.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, I just don't feel well and I'm doing this to be whole.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then it became hey, do you need to know any information about a friend or family member?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you need to have like figure out how something might uh if you don't do this, what what might not happen?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um oh, I'm gonna take this this drug to kind of make sense of future.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Decisions I have to make.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have a business deal with a person and I need to know what's going on in their heart.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And he's taking this to figure that like he is, he is, he's hanging out in sovereign divine space, space that belongs to God.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: God knows the end from the beginning.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: God knows what's inside of the human heart.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: We see this in in Jeremiah 7.10.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I the Lord search the hearts and the minds.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: The secret things belong to the Lord, our God, but the things that are revealed to us belong to us in Deuteronomy 29, 29.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: God will reveal things about the future to us, but he is the one who has to reveal that.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, we're trying to get into space that only God is sovereign over.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: And again, Sean would never, I think probably to this day, would not call what he was doing sorcery.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: But according to what Paul is talking about in the book of Galatians, it seems to have a very similar effect to use some kind of mind-altering uh substance.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that is to commune with something divine, to know, to get some kind of information.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is what is being described in Galatians chapter five.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, he argued, well, I'm doing this under the Lord, I'm praying a lot before, I'm praying a lot after.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Deuteronomy tells us not to worship the false, to worship Yahweh the way Israel is worshiping false gods, right?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Very explicitly.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh tells us not to practice uh divination, fortune-telling, interpret ormonds, uh, charmers, uh, mediums, necromancers, or those who inquire of the dead, Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 14.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so, you know, when we approach what he is describing here, uh, I think what he's describing here is showing that this one thing that was just supposed to offer you healing is now drawing you back in to get all the secret knowledge, to drawing you back in to discover information that only God has.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And because this isn't medical, this is really much closer to recreational use because, you know, he's going down to Mexico, he's getting treatment there.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I I'm I'm deeply concerned that this is what is opening that door.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sin does this.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: It just says, hey, look, I'm gonna numb the pain.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna give you some some pleasure for a little bit, but then it draws you into addiction, it draws you into destructive um uh patterns in your life.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and I would say that this is um a a more destructive pattern that we begin to see forming in his life.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'd be curious, uh, because I know I think it's maybe a subsequent clip where he talks about maybe it was in this one, I think it's subsequent, where he talks about the Roman Catholic priest who does some exorcism.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and so I would be curious if they asked him to repent of sorcery, because if I, like if John Ryan had come to me and, you know, or someone in that situation, that would be part of what we would have talked through, would be, you know, we say it at Remnant Radio, repent, renounce, expel.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: And uh repent, it's like, you know, literally means change your mind, but it's in the context of the kingdom of God.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus will say, for instance, the kingdom of God is here, repent, and believe the gospel.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: So there's the good news that Christ, the coming king, is now here.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: And because he's here, he comes with his kingdom, and Jesus reigns over sickness, he reigns over demons.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's why he proclaims the kingdom, then he heals the sick and he casts out demons.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: And our entry into that kingdom, into that access or that access to that kingdom power is through faith and repentance.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not just a one-time thing.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: We have to keep living that out.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it's a it's an everyday thing.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would have, I would have walked him through a prayer of repentance for sorcery, and I would have used that word because I'd want to call it what it is.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think Sean was doing it uh not out of, like I think he was doing it in ignorance.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like I don't think he was like, ooh, I'm gonna do some little sorcery and I'm gonna get my cauldron and mix some eye of newt in or something like that.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh most of the time, like, or I would say often, especially we in the West, we we might get locked into something we weren't intending.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they sell Ouija boards in Target, right?
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like uh uh, or at least they have.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think a lot of times people just get roped in, and it sounds like what happened.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing that I would point out was when he was talking about the knowledge piece where he says everything became clear, like all of it.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to say there are probably some people listening and they heard that part of the testimony, and they they shut out like, okay, cool, I'm gonna go do this thing, listen to the rest of it.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's really dark.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_03: Sean Ryan is not glad that he did this.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so it it does become really dark, but what I want to point out is kind of what's behind all of this.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, Genesis 3:6, that the serpent says, Your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: And she uh and the tree was desired to make one wise, that there was some sort of like illicit knowledge and wisdom that Eve wanted access to.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: And Eve stumbled into it in ignorance.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: Paul will give commentary in the New Testament and say that she was deceived.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so, in that deception, she thought, oh, this is gonna be a good thing.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: And guess what, guys?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: Guess what?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: It worked.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: Her eyes were opened, and then all hell broke out.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: So having your eyes opened isn't always the best thing.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_03: Just because something worked, quote unquote, let's take the long view and ask if it really worked.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: Did it really work for Adam and Eve eating that fruit in the long term, in the bigger view, in the macro view of things?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely not.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: In the short term, in the immediate, yes, it was satisfying.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: It was a delight to the eyes and to the taste, and desirable for making one wise, all those things.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is how John labels that in 1 John 2.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so all that to say, I I think he went after the secret knowledge, the illicit knowledge.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think he was looped in like Eve, like a child whose parents buy him a Ouija board and think it's just a toy and a game.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think he was looped in, and I think that's why the darkness followed.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think uh Miller, he does a couple of really good jokes on on this.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: I say jokes.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean they're not funny, but like people will say, like, I'm doing Christian yoga, like I'm doing yoga unto God, not unto Brahmin.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Yoga is as Christian as like, you know, Christian adultery, you know, like I I fornicate for the exercise, you know, like that kind of thing, like making all of our excuses for why we do uh the things that we do.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it and it's it's a little bit more comical in his sermon.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm certainly butchering the delivery.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I think that's important because we have Sam uh Saul who tries to inquire of the Lord on his own, doesn't get an answer, and then he tries to go to the Witch of Endor and call up Samuel from the ground and then acquire of the Lord through Samuel, right?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like he he's still trying to commune with the Lord.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's at least his intention.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: But what's interesting is in first uh Chronicles 10, 13 through 16, it says he did not seek guidance from the Lord because he went to necromancers, because he's going through an unauthorized means, even if he's doing it unto God, it's an unauthorized means it's not to God.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Your intent there doesn't matter.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this would be another case where hey, I could pray and ask God to encounter me in this trip.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: You could, I just like that, but it's still an unauthorized means.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that you open yourself up to some really dangerous stuff.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um Michael, do you have anything to do with that?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: One more thing, and I I think we'll move to clip three after this.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the one more thing is I love the example that you set on 1 Samuel 28.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_03: Saul going to the witch of indoor because he tried inquiring of the Lord and the Lord didn't answer.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the Lord didn't answer because he was in sin already.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like he's he'd already like wholeheartedly turned against the Lord.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, okay, well, you're gonna go out some other way.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna answer you.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: So he turns to necromancy, or well, it ends up being necromancy.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: At first, it's uh it's anyway, he goes to the witch of indoor.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a kind of wild story.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna get into it, but here's the point I want to make sorcery is seeking the spiritual on demand.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's trying to and and it's trying to get God on demand, if you will.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what makes this sorcery.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's seeking a spiritual experience on demand, and that's not how God works.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like you read the Psalms, there's so much, like so much, so many of the Psalms are how long, O Lord, how long, O Lord?
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like God wants a relationship, and in a relationship, there's uh there there are times when we need to just wait on him and be patient.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: He loves us, but we have to trust that he loves us, and then he comes through in just the right time.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that's very different from like sorcery is not about relating, it's about manipulating.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's about taking this object, maybe it's a sacred stone, maybe it's a drug, whatever it is, to try to manipulate a spiritual experience into being.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where the real problem is.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's God on demand.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: And we can't put God on demand.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: God is the one who puts demands on us.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: So uh let's watch that third clip, Josh.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just so people know, uh, the third and fourth clip um uh are gonna be on the longer side, but we have less commentary on some of that.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll be able to move through this quite quickly.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then I went to do it again, and uh the next one didn't work out so well for me.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: The next IBA gain journey.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Was this recently?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: This was about I guess about three months ago now.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the one where I saw in your show you said you you think you visited hell.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: That would be the one.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: So for anyone that doesn't know what ibergain is and what the journey is like, is it a drink that you take and then it's sort of like a 12-hour For me it was a pill.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was a pill.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's from a route in, I think, Gabon, Africa.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they stayed, they say it's the most powerful psychedelic you can do.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe that that and and and then uh at this particular place you do five MAO DMT a day after uh your Ibogaine journey, and it's some extremely powerful stuff.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: Which led up to this last one, which was, yeah, I thought I think I saw hell.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: I know I did.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know you saw hell.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: Give me some c context on how how one would know that was hell, and and if you can at all.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's difficult to sort of say these things in human words, but like what was it?
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was total emptiness.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: When I say I saw, I didn't see fire, I didn't see any of that.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and where I really felt it was in the five MEO experience, and there was nothing.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was the most amount of fear that I had ever felt in my life, it was the most amount of anxiety I'd ever felt in my life.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: There was no God, there was no Christ, there was and it felt like eternity.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: And this went on for an hour and a half-ish.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: It felt like I was going through the most intense exorcism you could ever imagine.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it felt like.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it felt like things were trying to maybe leave.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not trying, maybe I was trying to get these things out and they wouldn't leave.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: But it felt like abandonment.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: It it it it's it's the most horrific feeling you could ever even imagine.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it was more real than anything I've experienced in in in real life.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: What could you see?
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: In this specific experience, I couldn't see anything.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my body was contorted, it was doing things that the human body shouldn't do.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: There was a a friend of mine with me.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: I told him I didn't want him to come down when I did it.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I talked I didn't want to talk to anybody for weeks after this, except my wife, a guy that um is a spiritual mentor of mine and some priests.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, but I I so I'd called him several weeks, he kept checking on me.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Man, he goes, I know you told me not to go down there, but he goes, when I heard uh you down there, he he said, I didn't know if you were hurting people, I didn't know what I didn't he's like I had I just felt like I had to check, and he goes, I peered around the the the stairwell.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: He just said, I've I've I've never seen a human body doing what you're doing.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a Marsok G Wad veteran who was uh seen at all in the Marine Corps, seeing horrific shit.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was a it was a really bad experience.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it was?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because some you know peop people say we had a psychedelic experience, but you think it was something more than just a psychedelic hallucination per se.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's what I told you.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think that when you dabble in psychedelics, there can be benefits.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think that there are you are opening yourself up to a realm that we were never supposed to have access to spiritually.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that you are naked in a world that you or I or nobody living today truly understands.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: And with that it becomes I mean you're just you're at a vulnerable point.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: Things can can access you and you can access them.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that that clip there is super insightful, I think, for a couple of reasons.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, he I love that he said it has benefits because that's what sorcery offers.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what uh the magical arts offer, that's what encountering the the supernatural and the divine offers.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: It wouldn't be tempting if it didn't offer something good.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it it it it delivers, right?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like the woman who is prophesying um to uh Paul, these men are from God, these men are from God, and she has this python spirit, she was able to fortune tell.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: It had a powerful benefit.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the sorcerers in Egypt uh are calling upon the name of their false gods, and they're able to turn sticks into serpents.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: There is a real power on display, something substantive, a good.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm using this as in like efficacious, in an efficacious way.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but just because there are benefits doesn't make something morally right or wrong.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, God is the creator of all, he is what determines our borders and our boundaries.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think he's right.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think he's he he gets it.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna see he's got other side effects that are going to be prolonged beyond just the experience itself.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: But if we went through the scriptures very quickly to just kind of examine his experience, we would see that this is not necessarily the fruit of the spirit.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what it's producing is fear and and anxiety, uh, uh, of a kind he's never experienced before as a former combat vet.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's wild.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and to say that Jesus hasn't given us a spirit of timidity and fear, but right, love, joy, and a sound mind, that kind of thing.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we see here that um there was no Christ, he felt nothing at all.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: That certainly describes what it sounds like is taking place in hell in 2 Thessalonians 1, 9, uh 1, verse 9, which is a hotly debated passage.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to um tell you that the presence of God isn't present in hell.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: Again, lots of debate over that sort of issue.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but his body was contorting.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is the same kind of thing that we see taking place uh in the scriptures where uh people begin to manifest uh their their bodies are rather contorted.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: An unclean spirit cried out convulsing him in Mark 1.6, crying out convulsing with uh terribly in Mark 9.26.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the verb terrazo is to to throw into convulsions.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: So uh what he is describing is what the Bible does use uh as descriptive language around uh people tremoring during demonic-like encounters.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I think I think we can definitely say that this is demonic.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I say that could could it also be God revealing it that that's up on the table, but but Michael, uh again, I've monologued quite a bit, so I'll I'll punt it over to you for some feedback.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I I agree.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I do think God can speak through sinful moments.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like he he allows Samuel to speak through the witch of indoor in 1 Samuel 28.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's the weird part of the story.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_03: So God could use that.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I I I know people who've been high and they have encountered the Lord and been saved.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so can the Lord use it?
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's not a validation of the means, like, okay, cool, I'm gonna do this to encounter the Lord.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, not at all.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: God can invade anyone, even in their sin.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't justify that, doesn't mean we chase the sin hoping God encounters us.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, not at all.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but speaking of the sin part, I love Sean.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's just part of what I like about him, is I love his honesty.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, I think we opened our door the door up to things we never were supposed to see.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: So he he's actually like humble and wise enough to be able to learn from these experiences.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, that isn't that what it's all like, like for all of us.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like, not that we all are going that precise route, but in a thousand different ways, we all learn from our failures.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I I like his honesty there.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I will chime in on the hell debate.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the 2 Thessalonians 1, it does talk about away from the presence of the Lord uh in in the context of final judgment.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't think that means that God's not in hell.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think God definitionally has to be everywhere, but I do think he's not present to bless in hell.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I would understand it.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: But that's neither here nor there.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's not the main point.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: I know we're trying to get through this one pretty fast.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_03: I agree with everything you said, Josh.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think what's important here is like if we look at biblical accounts, because I I've got a story of someone in my church who has shared their story of kind of having a hard time with church, having a hard time with God, and they decided that they were going to uh use uh a hallucinogen.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: And in doing so, uh had an encounter that they believe that, man, the Lord really caused them to repent, haven't touched the stuff again.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: They know the stuff is uh forbidden, they won't practice that.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in the midst of this, uh felt like God was leading them uh through this process.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I would absolutely forbid uh uh anyone in our church to practice that sort of thing.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: This was before this person came to our church.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and even if they did, like it they were very repentant post uh experience.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but to say that I think it's plausible that God can reach person a person in the act of sin.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think of Abimelech who takes Sarah, Sarai, I think at the time, Abraham's wife, and he is clearly trying to be intimate with her.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: But uh as he falls asleep, God intervenes and says, like, hey, you're a dead man.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're gonna touch this guy's wife.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I didn't know, I didn't touch antiquity spirit.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and so God speaks to this pagan king uh in the process of pursuing immorality.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you've got Pharaoh uh in Egypt uh under you know the time of Joseph, and then you've got Nebuchadnezzar with David.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um these guys are having encounters where God is communicating to them, um, and they're they're deeply pagan.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to witchcraft, they're going to sorcerers, they're going to necromancers.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that is well established in even in the Bible around those cultures and those kings.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh then you've got Balaam, uh, a guy who uh clearly is a false prophet, a guy who is calling on various spirits, uh essentially a witch doctor, and Yahweh appears to him and speaks, appears to him is a strong word.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I suppose the angel of the Lord does appear on the road, but that's that's neither here nor there.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: The word of the Lord does come to Balaam uh and God does speak to him.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: So uh in the midst of someone using a wicked practice, could God intervene and show them a picture of hell to say, hey, you keep doing this, this is the this is the outcome, this is the dangerous path.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: Could God have done it?
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the experience he describes sounds more like demonization to me while being open to God using even that.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because as we listen to these stories that he's gonna continue to tell, I think what we're gonna find is that even the even the evil, even the bad, even the the tormenting, God is using to the good of those who love him and call him according to the purpose.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what I'm seeing from Sean is that he is drawing nearer and nearer to Christ by seeing the darkness and the effects of these supernatural powers.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is a a net positive sort of thing, even though I'm still very Protestant and deeply concerned about Catholic exorcism.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh without further ado, you want to watch clip number four, Michael?
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is gonna continue to describe some of the long-term effects that he's seen since that last Ibogaine and um uh five M E O DMT experience.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: And from what I saw from watching your videos over the last couple of weeks, your life has been different ever since.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's been different, all right.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's been dark.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_02: Who gets better?
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a lot of supernatural things, things that I just uh I mean, I can't even believe I'm saying I I talk about some of this stuff, but it's it is real and uh I don't really care what anybody thinks about me, but it has been supernatural things that have happened, it has been nightmares, it has been very odd coincidences, uh synchronicities, um lots of that kind of stuff.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what it's all done, it is it has drawn me much, much, much closer to Christ.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: I heard you describe that some supernatural things that were going on in your physical environment.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I think you uh one of the videos I was watching I maybe a week ago, you said that things were like falling off the walls in your house.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: Not in my house.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not in your house.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: In other places.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_01: Your use of the word dark is really fascinating to me.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is the darkness because of the nightmares, or is it because of your mental state, or is it something else?
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_02: The darkness is because of all of it together.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll I'll give you a I don't want to talk too long on this, uh to be honest with you, but I'll give you the example of the picture frames coming off the wall.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I was in Maine.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_02: I did a podcast up there, and I was at my in-laws' house.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I had been put on this.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean, it's no secret.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: I d I had done some exorcisms now uh with two different priests who've also been spiritual mentors of mine.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I went up there and I've been I've been I've I kept having these nightmares, these these reoccurring nightmares, different scenarios, but it would it would destroy my family.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you've had dreams like this.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: You wake up and it takes you a couple minutes to realize it was just a dream.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I kept having these.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: And what all this has done has drawn me further into Catholicism.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up Catholic, fell away from it now back in because I think they're some of the only ones that have an understanding of this realm.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been thinking about having this bishop on from the Catholic Church.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I had had this dream where he kept uh kind of like we were about to do the podcast and he kept like sending me these like cryptic homosexual messages like he wanted to get with me or something.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: This was in my dream, and it was just making me furious.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and it made me hate the Catholic Church, made me hate it.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: I woke up from it, I was like, I don't want to be a part of this anymore.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is disgusting.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_02: It was a vivid dream.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, but it was all he had I never met him, and and I still have never met him, and and but I I I just kept getting, you know, it was it was vivid.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, what the we're coming here to do the podcast to talk about the so I wake up, these priests had put me on this uh prayer regimen.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's called the Libra Cristo Method.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so you say it at 6 a.m., 12 uh p.m.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: 6 p.m.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I go out and I kind of shake it off, and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna start my prayer regiment.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I start the prayer regiment, and in the middle of it, I start the St.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_02: Michael's prayer and a picture frame flies off the wall.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, holy shit, all right.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: I just had this weird dream that makes me hate Catholicism.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm doing this prayer, and this picture frame flies off the wall.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's Sunday, so then I'm going to mass.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I go to mass and I'm with this guy, uh, we'll call him Hendo.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And uh he he he protects me, he protects my family, and he's turned into a spiritual mentor of mine and a good friend.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we're going to mass together, and I'm telling him about these things that are happening.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_02: And he knows all the prior stuff.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_02: A whole bunch of stuff had happened prior to this, too.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we get into mass and and uh I go and I take communion, and immediately after I took communion, I had an allergic reaction.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like immediately.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so this is all I think we went to eight o'clock mass, so this is all within about two hours from end of the dream to the prayer to now we're at mass, maybe 7 a.m.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I go up, I take communion, come back, I'm kneeling down, my face feels like it's on fire.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And he looks at me and and he's like, he's like, What's wrong with you?
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, is my face, is my face red?
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Yeah.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, you're he's like, your veins are like popping out on your forehead, and you look like a tomato.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, man, my face feels like really hot.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm having a I think I'm having a reaction to communion.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, this is like seconds after I took it's not even enough time for an allergic reaction to happen.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_02: It happened seconds afterwards.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it's these weird, and right before that, I I had told him we had we had got there a little early, and I was like, you know, it's it's so weird because these things seem to happen in like in sequences.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, it's just like one after the next, and then that'll happen for a while.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then we went into mass and bam, there it is.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_02: That kind of stuff has been happening to me for three months now.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Ever since that.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Ever since that.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_00: So uh a couple things uh mentioning here.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh these attacks are following uh Sean for the last three months.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_00: We should be praying for Sean for for sure.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh quite a few things here that we could respond to.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, Michael, I've been taking the clips at the very beginning.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you want to add to this before I I commit the sin of thunder theft and and and say everything that can be said on this video?
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's cool.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I mean, well, you sent it over to me, so uh sure, I'll start.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it is interesting.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I guess I kind of it happened fast.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_03: So uh when I listened to this video, the first go round before this interview, uh before this conversation, I guess I missed what he talked about with the Libre Christo where they uh where the Roman Catholic exorcists, it's like this program design, and you could see it if you're watching the video and not listening to the audio, you could see there was a little um excuse me, like caption at the bottom that explained it in part.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_03: It did involve deep repentance.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I find that interesting because uh uh now it still doesn't explain whether he repented of actual sorcery or if it's just like a general life repentance or things.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, was it things that the spirit was revealing?
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'd be curious to know all of those things.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_03: But I that is Josh, really similar to how we do uh exorcism in the Protestant Church, which on that note we do exorcism in the Protestant Church.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the Catholics who are the only ones who have an idea about this kind of thing.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_03: I can't remember.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_03: I know we have the exact quote in the show notes.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_03: Josh, do you have it up?
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what he said about the Roman Catholics.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'll tell you, like, yeah, he said, you know, I've been going to the Roman Catholics because, you know, they they seem to have uh the knowledge on this issue.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that makes sense, you know, because you've got two different groups in the Protestant side that are actually the biggest.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that there aren't Protestants who do exorcisms, but you've got hyper charismatics who are like writing books about aquatic marine spirits.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_00: I did a short video today responding to a guy who's like you'll notice that the aquatic spirits are are tied to banking.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_00: They have control of your finances and economics because a partner ship, uh, you know, ships are on the water and uh the banks of a river, and and you know, where does the river flow?
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a current and then current sea are are similar words there.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh, you know, he just he just went off of on water metaphors instead of like banking metaphors, just making stuff up.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so like you you've got this hyper charismatic world over here, and you're like, I don't learn from that group.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of go over to a more conservative Bible group and they they functionally act as if and I'm not saying this of all Bible folks, I'm just saying uh the the major swath of like theologically robust people also treat the demonic as if it were a fairy tale and like it's not something that we engage with, and there's no training on it, and there's no way to, you know, all all if they talk about it at all.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're just talking about how man, the demon hunters are crazy, and you know, the hyper charismatics are over here, you know, losing it.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_00: But what we need is a as a kind of third way, which is is hope what we represent.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were doing uh this week uh in Wisconsin was one of the craziest weeks ever.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh brought a lady on stage to do a five-step healing model.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Miller starts praying for her, uh, realized this is something demonic, starts commanding this demon to come out.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: It starts coming, it starts talking to him.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've come in, I've come out, I've come and gone.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, out now in Jesus' name.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And as he's commanding it to come out, different people across the sanctuary just start manifesting.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because whenever he's saying come out, whatever's coming out has come out of a couple people.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_03: People's demons start coming out too.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_03: And this is this is a church that's full of like people who don't even like largely recently saved, or yes, I mean not entirely.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's some Christians who've been around, but like they're they're not Lutheran and Catholic backgrounds.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_00: They're not hypercharismatic.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, this is the this is the appointed moment that I'm supposed to scream and shake, right?
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's what a lot of charismatics do.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_03: They fake and shake.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh no, like this was just people started screaming, they didn't have a script to follow, but you know, Acts chapter 8, it does say that sometimes demons leave with shrieks.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, Josh, I don't know where you were going with that, but it was a wild supernatural encounter.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we're Protestants, we're not Roman Catholics, we're very far from Roman Catholics.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_03: And guess what?
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Exorcisms happen here too.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_03: But Joshua, what was your point you were trying to make on that story, though?
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was just to say that we've got people with testimonies and don't seem like they have a lot of doctrine.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a lot of people with doctrine with not a lot of testimonies, and it's not often that those two things coalesce in a way that someone that's really inquisitive, like Sean Ryan, would be satisfied with.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I understand why he would go to a bishop that has, you know, theological training, even though I disagree with some of their conclusions, they actually have theological training and experiences to say, okay, look, this seems to be a sweet spot.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I I want to, in some sense, validate his experience while also saying, man, I'm really concerned with some of the Catholic stuff.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's praying to St.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, stuff's falling off the walls.
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I just don't think talking to angels and dead people is actually the way that we're going to get deliverance from things uh when we're expressly forbidden not to talk to the dead, uh, where there's no Bible verse in uh the old or New Testament where people are calling upon angels that don't manifest before them.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that those are some dangerous practices.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've got some experiences that seem to back that up.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I also see some of his experience that seemed real.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're told in 1 Corinthians uh uh chapter 10, verse 21, that you can't drink from the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can't partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons, and it seems as if that was the very thing he was doing later on in chapter 11.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Paul's gonna write, for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body and eats and eats and drinks judgment on himself, that is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So here he is describing what he calls an allergic reaction to communion, which is interesting because the Bible actually records people becoming ill from taking communion in an unworthy fashion.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And in the prior chapter, he says, hey, one way that would this would be unworthy.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_00: The context of chapter 11 is certainly not recognizing the body, not caring for the poor, um, giving certain status uh access to the table for people who are rich, while people who are poor don't get access to the table.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_00: That that's actually the context of chapter 11.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_00: But in chapter 10, one of I would say one of the ways that we improperly uh take of the cup of the Lord is is practicing sorcery, like practicing idolatry, eating of the table of demons, and then coming to Christ.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting that he is having a visceral reaction to the Lord's table.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So um I I don't know.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Those are just those are just thoughts there.
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh sympathetic towards them.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you want to reach out, Sean, uh, you happen to watch this video, I'll get you in contact with some good Protestant exorcists who uh, you know, can do some stuff.
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, Roundry, you got anything else on this one?
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_00: We can watch clip number five.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_00: He, you know, he kind of lands the plane in his new position, his new understanding of uh uh I think this is out of bounds.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're muted, dog.
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Did you mute yourself?
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, dog.
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I'm good.
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good, dude.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was about to mute you again for picking on me for calling you dog.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh number five.
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the outstanding question I have is there's this experience you had three months ago.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's these experiences you've had thereafter.
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And like, what is I guess the audience will be thinking like, what is the conclusion of this?
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's really interesting because I've I've done I've been a huge proponent for the psychedelic community and and all the good that it's done.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_02: But the minute you do something and you say something negative about it, it pisses everybody off.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_02: They don't want you to talk about it.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_02: How dare you you know, and and it's there's two sides to it, and people need to know that.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_02: And make their own decisions.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not all good.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_02: I just I just prove that, you know, and and do I know what it is?
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do I know for certain that it came from psychedelics?
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying that it did come from psychedelics.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_02: That seemed to be the trigger point, but it kind of appears to me like I'm the only one that's willing to talk about both sides because people are really upset, you know, that I'm talking about what happened to me, my journey.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_02: And um, like I said, I think that it opens you up to a forbidden realm that we maybe we shouldn't have access to.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, a lot of people say, you know, it lifts the veil.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it lifts the veil, all right.
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe we have that veil over us for a reason.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So uh man, I'm glad I I would just say, man, Sean, if you're watching this, uh James 4, 7, submit yourself to God, resist the devil, hopefully.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think that you're on the right path um trying to make sense of all of this.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think there's a lot of discernment that needs to go into this conversation.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we should watch this and go, oh, because this one guy had a bad experience, uh, we should never do DMT.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think as Christians, our primary focus should be to go to the scriptures.
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_00: What do the scriptures say?
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do the scriptures describe sorcery?
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_00: What's the historical grammatical hermeneutic to this?
• 1:21:20
  SPEAKER_00: What was taking place in that time?
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm compelled that this was some kind of hallucinogen, I need to be extremely careful about using these sorts of things to commune with the spirits, encounter God, etc., uh, while simultaneously hoping that some of the research surrounding these sorts of things can continue to develop because these people do need care.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, people who are, you know, are broken from traumatic things that have happened in their past.
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_00: We we want to give these people care.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the Christian world should uh take um, you know, as much uh effect and research uh into this space as possible uh so that we can have a really developed uh theology around this to care for people.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you're out there and you have done uh a bunch of hallucinogens or one or two times did hallucinogens and you found that there are dark things that are beginning to surround you, I would very much encourage you to go find a local Christian church that practices deliverance because I think those things are connected.
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, uh those are some of my thoughts on that.
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Round Tree, uh, I know we're this is a late program.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh do you got any thoughts you wanna you want to share before we wrap this up?
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh I I think I would just say agree with you.
• 1:22:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think Sean Ryan's on on the right path and that he's seeking the Lord.
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um maybe reach out to a Protestant and see uh and see how they might be able to help you on the deliverance realm.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but man, like I said, like you said, I think resist the devil and he'll flee from you.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think he's discerning well.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think he's learning well.
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think it's right for him to be questioning why I am breaking out an allergic reaction, not just call it a coincidence.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's right for him to ask about the the picture frames.
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_03: Now, on the picture frames, like one picture frame, one picture fell off the wall one time.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't think that would be enough for me to say, oh, it was a demon if it was happening over and over again, or if it happened in a really weird or awkward way.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_03: We don't really have enough detail to know.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I I think he's real sensitive to it because of what he went through.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think this was definitely a demonic experience.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Demons do that to your body.
• 1:23:16
  SPEAKER_03: God wouldn't contort your body in all kinds of weird ways that sounded painful, honestly.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and God's not in the business of tormenting, uh tormenting people who seek his face, like that's not what he's doing.
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the devil would do that.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_03: He loves to steal, kill, and destroy, but Jesus came to give life and give it abundantly.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_03: So uh anyway, and then I think the last thing, Josh, was you you were as you were talking about uh hallucinogens, I I think you would say don't take them.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um just that if they discover a way that microdosing or something like that can work without this, like if you can get the effect without the spiritual experience, maybe that that can become a conversation.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_03: We are interested in science continuing to explore those benefits, but you would certainly be against, because I I was a little unclear on the last part of your monologue, uh, but based on what you've said before and our conversations, I think you would be against any hallucinogen that's like literally opening you up to spiritual encounters, correct?
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um I would say that every Christian needs to be making these decisions based on scripture, not what I said, not someone's experience, not what the medical field says.
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_00: What does the Bible say?
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's going to be determined what's moral and ethical and true.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_00: My conclusion from wrestling with the text and trying to make sense of the world around me and the ever-evolving sciences and spiritual experiences people are having with drugs, my conclusion is that the use of hallucinogens for spiritual experiences is expressly forbidden.
• 1:24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then to even use that in a medicinal way, I would still say I do not think that is permissible.
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm willing to wrestle through that, to talk through dosage.
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there are dosages that can prevent you from tripping, like microdosing in a way that is helpful.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be willing to have all of those conversations.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that people need to be convinced in their own mind.
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_00: I really think that this is not an issue that we can just say, oh, I like that guy's view, or I like that.
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't agree with Sean Ryan because he's Sean Ryan.
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't agree with Josh Lewis because he's Josh Lewis.
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_00: You should be going to the scriptures and trying to figure out what the Bible says and then allow that to be the outflow of your life.
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_03: Trying to be a good Protestant, right?
• 1:25:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so you don't have to go to the magisterium, you can just go to the Bible.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because at the end of the day, I uh you know, I gave arguments from history, I gave arguments uh on the medical use uh from logic and reason, the medical establishment, but ultimately um those are our supplemental standards.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_00: We should never look to those as the standard.
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're just they're just other layers of evidence that can point us with wisdom to again, I think what is true, pure, and godly, which can be clearly seen in scripture most explicitly.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Love it.
• 1:26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Bueno, guys, thank you for tuning in.
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Michael, thanks for jumping on.
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we just did an episode on the whore of Babylon uh just a moment ago.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_00: I do feel incredible every time I say that word.
• 1:26:14
  SPEAKER_03: I prefer to call her the harlot.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like whore is so strong.
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Biblical, biblical language, Michael.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you bashful about the Bible?
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_03: She's a King James whore.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_03: She is, indeed.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_03: And anyway, modern translations are more like prostitute, but yeah, language.
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, you guys go check that episode.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_03: Josh stays the same.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_03: He wants to call her a whore.
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you guys uh can watch the uh that episode next Monday.
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be uh uh it's a pre-recorded episode, so that'll be releasing then.
• 1:26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Guys, thank you so much for tuning in this episode.
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_00: See you next week.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Peace out.