Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Throwback! - S3 EP 77 - The Open Category - Expectations from Your Judges

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Throwback! - S3 EP 77 - The Open Category - Expectations from Your Judges · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

0:02
SPEAKER_01: Hey y'all, it's Courtney Ortiz here, and this week we're throwing it back to an episode that still sparked so many conversations behind the judges table.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: The open category.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: This is a conversation I'm very passionate about.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: The open category at competition can be exciting, confusing, and sometimes totally misunderstood.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: Is it a creative playground or just a catch-off free-for-all category?
0:26
SPEAKER_01: What are your judges actually looking for when a dance hits the stage labeled as open?
0:31
SPEAKER_01: And when does the piece truly belong there?
0:34
SPEAKER_01: In this throwback, I'm joined by two veteran judges who break down expectations, common missteps, and what separates an intentional open piece from one that feels misplaced.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: If you're choreographing, entering, or judging open in 2026, this episode will absolutely make you rethink how and why to use this category appropriately.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Let's jump into season three, episode 77, the open category.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Expectations from your judges.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact Advanced Audition Podcast.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I am here, of course, like always, with my fabulous co-host, Leslie Mueller.
1:20
SPEAKER_04: Hi guys, hi Courtney.
1:22
SPEAKER_04: How are we?
1:23
SPEAKER_04: One of these days I'm gonna be sitting next to you again, but today I'm at my house.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: I know I miss you next to me when we record the pod.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: It's always so fun to just like get together once a week and record our podcast and catch up on life and talk a little bit of dance, talk a little bit about life af post-pod recording, but I miss seeing you on the regular.
1:44
SPEAKER_04: I'll see you again in like two weeks.
1:46
SPEAKER_04: Oh, perf.
1:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it'll be can't wait for that.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Yay! Well, I'm looking forward to you being back in our in my makeshift recording studio in my apartment soon, Leslie.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: But really excited for this episode.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting topic today, actually.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about the open category.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: So if you're a competitive dancer, you might know what I'm talking about when I say the open category.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: It's that one category where you can kind of do whatever you want in there.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: And we have two IDA judges, and this is one of the not first episodes, but this is an episode that we have two IDA judges back.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: It's been a minute since we've had, you know, a full discussion on the podcast lately with all IDA judges chatting.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited about that.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: And like I mentioned, we have two fabulous IDA judges joining us on this episode, and they have both previously been on the podcast.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: So, our first IDA judge that I'm excited to welcome back to the podcast, you may remember them from season one, episode 22, Levels at Competition.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: I am happy to welcome back Miss Amy Mays to the podcast.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Amy.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: So happy to have you back on the pod.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: If you wouldn't mind telling the world a little bit about you and reminding everybody some of your credits, where you're located, and anything else you'd like to share with the listeners.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: So I am in Black Mountain, North Carolina.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: I attended North Carolina School of the Arts and then graduated from the University of Greensboro with a BFA in performance and choreography.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: I went on to perform with Walt Disney World, and then I also perform with Horn in the West, which is the nation's like one of their longest-running outdoor dramas.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: I run my own dance program for a nonprofit arts center, which is really fabulous because it hosts like a pottery studio and a painting studio and an art gallery.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's really like a nice fusion of the arts.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: And then for the last three years, I've been traveling nationally and internationally with Olympic coaches and medalists to be a dance coach at these gymnastic camps for competitive gymnasts.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: Love it.
3:58
SPEAKER_04: I love that.
3:58
SPEAKER_04: That's so cool.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: That's been so much fun.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: It's that's been like really like a highlight of my teaching career because these gymnasts have just been like eating up like real dance, you know, versus versus kind of like what they're used to with their other, you know, coaches.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: So it's been really fun.
4:17
SPEAKER_04: And you've gotten to travel so much, which I think is so cool.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and we're actually gonna be heading back to Sweden this July, which I'm very excited about.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: It'll be the first trip since COVID.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: So nice to be back.
4:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
4:28
SPEAKER_04: Good.
4:28
SPEAKER_04: I bet you're so excited.
4:29
SPEAKER_04: That's awesome.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, yes.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: But traveling with the newborn, I don't know, or an infant.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be very scary, but it'll be fun.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: He'll be a world traveler too.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
4:38
SPEAKER_04: Gotta start him early.
4:39
unknown: Yep.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, congrats on being a new mommy and squeezing uh this recording into your busy mommy schedule.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: And we're pumped to have you back.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: So you're welcome.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: All right.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: Our very next special guest is someone who has been with IDA since day one, y'all.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: This girl has been here from the very beginning.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: She has written blog articles.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: She has been on the podcast a million times, and she always has so many fabulous things to say.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite judges, because her critiques are so spectacular.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: I could listen to them all day long.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited to welcome back Ashley Marinelli to the podcast.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Ash.
5:23
SPEAKER_02: Hello, I'm so excited to be here.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm always so excited to nerd out about dance and competitions with all of you.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: These are the things I obsess over in my daily life.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: And my partner is just like has heard enough of all of it, and he's bored.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: So I'm so psyched to be here again.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's why we bring you onto the podcast.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: So you can just talk dance with us and you don't have to annoy anybody else.
5:47
unknown: Yeah.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I am Ashley Marinelli.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: I am based in Brooklyn, New York.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: I've lived here in New York City for over 15 years.
5:57
SPEAKER_02: I moved here to go to NYU Tish School.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: I have degrees in English lit and dance.
6:05
SPEAKER_02: So since graduating college, I have made it my business to straddle the worlds of commercial dance and theater and concert dance.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: And so I my favorite thing to do in the world is find the in-between the hybrid situations where I can do all of those things.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: Right now I have just choreographed an off-Broadway show called Stranger Things.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: It is a musical parody of Stranger Things.
6:29
SPEAKER_02: It's hilarious.
6:30
SPEAKER_02: And our cast album was just released.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: So go listen to it on Spotify, Apple Music, all the things.
6:36
SPEAKER_02: Our cast is so talented.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: And then I am, I have just choreographed a world premiere of a show called Techies, which is going to be opening in Slippery Rock, Pennsylvania, with a fabulous cast out there.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: And I can confirm that the show that I have been working on for the last three years, I'm the writer and also the choreographer of an immersive experience.
7:00
SPEAKER_02: Just got a venue as of yesterday.
7:02
SPEAKER_02: So we will be we will be premiering that show at the Players Club in New York City in May 2022.
7:12
SPEAKER_02: So can you remind us what that show is called?
7:15
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's got a long title, and I can talk for actual hours about it and can't wait to.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: So it is called The True and Unquestionable Account of Dr.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: Joseph Snodgrass.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: So Dr.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: Joseph Snodgrass was Edgar Allan Poe's physician, possible lover, and potential murderer.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: So many things.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: So many things.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: Cool.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: And it's also about um a real life.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: So these people are real in history.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: Journalist named Margaret Fuller, the first female journalist in history, first female war correspondent in history, and she and Poe were equally famous in their day.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: You can cut all this out, by the way.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: Feel free.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: She and Poe were equally famous in their day, but she got totally erased by history.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: And we all know Poe, but we've never heard of her.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: Many people have not heard of her.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: So that's my show.
8:07
SPEAKER_02: It's danced, it's there's dialogue, there is dancing, lots of dancing.
8:13
SPEAKER_02: There is music, but it's not a musical because no actor on stage sings.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: It's a play cycle.
8:20
SPEAKER_04: So so you would put it in the open category, is what you're saying.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't put it in the open category.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: Precisely.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: Good segue, Leslie.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, stop it.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: That is too funny.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: That is great.
8:33
SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's awesome.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, Ash, thanks for you.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, have an extremely busy schedule.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'm super excited for all of these things that are coming your way.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: And actually, I was just thinking that if anybody listening wants to take class from Ashley and I, right now, around the time that this episode is premiering, Ashley and I will be teaching with Spirit of Dance Awards at their SDA experience conventions.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: So Ashley, you're teaching tap, right?
9:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm teaching tap and you're teaching contemporary.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm teaching contemporary.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: We're teaching some very different genres that we don't normally always teach, which is interesting.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm psyched.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm psyched.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: I yeah, we're gonna hang out.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be great.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be awesome.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, thank you both for joining us.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: Let's chat the open category.
9:30
SPEAKER_04: All right, my friends.
9:32
SPEAKER_04: So I think we know what the open category is because we've been doing this for a while, but I know we really have a lot of uh new dance parents out there and people who are maybe unfamiliar with some of the differences between the categories.
9:46
SPEAKER_04: So can somebody just give me your personal definition of what the open category is at a dance competition?
9:53
SPEAKER_02: I think it depends on the competition.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: I know different competitions have different definitions of the category, but what I think about when I think about the open category is styles that do not belong, specifically do not belong in any of the other categories listed.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: And I have my opinions about what that is.
10:10
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's historical.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: If I'm looking at like soft shoe from the 1920s, like that is a very specific style that isn't designated in another category.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, like if you're going to do something in the Lindy Hop world or salsa or traditional dances, like I feel like to me, I define it as things that do not belong in other categories.
10:34
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
10:35
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I love that.
10:36
SPEAKER_04: That's great.
10:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like I agree.
10:38
SPEAKER_04: What fun styles that you mentioned.
10:39
SPEAKER_04: I'm like Lindy Hop.
10:41
SPEAKER_04: That's great.
10:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: Most definitely.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: And as well, like a fusion of styles because there's so many blended things nowadays.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: I think that it's also a place for blended styles of dance as well.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, things that come to mind are like theme dances like that don't have a home in other categories, like I don't know, like a music box, like a music box dancer, box dancer who, you know, has this awesome prop and has these ode to different genres, but doesn't really necessarily like pinpoint into one particular style.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with with y'all.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: I think that there are definitely a lot of different genre categories at competition, but in a weird way, especially with how our competitive world has evolved over the last 20 years and how dance and what you mentioned, Amy, like a fusion of styles that has evolved over the past few 20 years.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that we almost need more categories at competition to really cater to these new trends and cater to these fusions.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: I think that like I I'm a big stick, I mean, if you've listened to the pod, you've probably heard me say this before, but I'm a big stickler about proper category placement.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: And I know, Amy, you were on our levels episode and we talked about, you know, properly placing people in the right level.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: But I also think that goes hand in hand with properly placing students in the right genre of dance.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: And if you're uncertain, if it's a little too much of a fusion for you to really look at that and say, that is jazz or that is lyrical, then open does feel like a safer place for that dance to live in in the competition.
12:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
12:25
SPEAKER_04: I think it's interesting that you brought up needing more categories, because I feel like when you if you go to any competition's website and you look under rules and regulations, there's a section you can click on that'll elaborate on the different genres that you can enter into.
12:39
SPEAKER_04: And I feel like we kind of live in, you know, tap, jazz, lyrical, contemporary, open, hip-hop.
12:46
SPEAKER_04: Right.
12:47
SPEAKER_04: But you've got character, you know, you've got open.
12:50
SPEAKER_04: Like there's a there's some categories I think that just get forgotten about.
12:53
SPEAKER_04: And I don't like the music box dance you sort of alluded to, to me that would have maybe gone into a character category, but nobody uses the character category.
13:00
SPEAKER_04: They use open instead.
13:02
SPEAKER_04: And I'm kind of wondering, is that because if you open if you entered something into a character division, would you would that just negate the competition of it because nobody else is in it?
13:12
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
13:13
SPEAKER_04: Like, is that why people are heading towards open with some things?
13:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: And my so my pet pee is when something is theatrical in nature, but it's people don't want to define it as musical theater.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: Like they want to define it as like theatrical contemporary, which to me can either just go contemporary or it can go theater.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, theater doesn't have to be one thing.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Theater doesn't mean jazz, theater doesn't necessarily mean that you're dancing to a song from a musical.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: So I also like it when people challenge these categories and and therefore expand them.
13:45
SPEAKER_03: Right.
13:45
SPEAKER_02: That's my favorite thing to see.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: And I think I reserve the open category.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: But I will say, open category for me as a judge, I am looking for something additional.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: I am looking for other rules that I might need to apply that I don't apply to the other styles.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: It means that I look closer.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: And if I look closer and don't discover anything different than I usually see in a jazz category or a modern category, that's when I'm disappointed.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: That's when I go, am I missing something?
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And I spend a lot of time thinking about like, why is this dance in the open category?
14:18
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, it's it's extra attention that I I open my mind and I open my awareness to see possibly what is different about this dance.
14:27
SPEAKER_02: And if I can't find anything different, that's when I get upset.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: And that's maybe when I take points off.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: I've totally felt that.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: There's I I look back and forth down at my sheet, and I'm like, wait, this is oak, why is this an open?
14:39
SPEAKER_01: I I don't understand.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: This is I'm watching a beautiful lyrical dance.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Why is this an open?
14:44
SPEAKER_01: This makes no sense.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: Why wouldn't you just put it in the category?
14:47
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna go there right away.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: What I think the reason is, is because maybe you had another lyrical solo already, and you wanted two.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: So then you put one in open.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna say that's my biggest pet peeve when it comes to the open category.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: I have the same pet peeve as you, Ashley, that you already said, but what for me, I don't think that open is just the like throwaway bonus category.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: I think that there are some expectations for what we want to see utilized in open, and what I don't want to see is your second solo that is identical to one that I already watched, which is what happens all the time.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: I totally agree.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: And also, if I've already seen you do a lyrical solo, I don't need to see you do another lyrical solo.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: My critiques will probably be very similar to the first one.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: And I always think you should never do more than one solo unless you are changing categories.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: My favorite dancers to watch in competitions they come on with a they have a tap solo, they have a point solo, they have a hip-hop solo, then they have, you know, Fossi Jazz solo.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I love nothing more than to watch people be versatile.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: But I I only need to see you do one thing.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:59
SPEAKER_02: If you're if you're a competing, you know what I'm trying to say.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, a thousand percent agree.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: I witnessed it this weekend, judging.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: There was a dancer, I think she had three solos, and she had her the open category was towards the end of the session, but so I watched her actual lyrical solo first, beautiful, gorgeous technique, exactly what I expected for a lyrical dance.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Then she came out about ten numbers later in the open category, changed her lyrical costume to one that was identical but just different color.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: The choreography was practically the same, song was slightly different, like same exact dance.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: And I was just confused the whole time.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: And my critique, which I was actually doing a teacher critique, which is really exciting.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: So I was talking to the teacher and I'm like, why would you do the same exact solo?
16:41
SPEAKER_01: I've already watched this, this makes no sense.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't understand why you would bring the like to me, I feel like it's a waste of money for the dancer.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, why aren't you?
16:48
SPEAKER_01: This is just you're just trying to get have another chance to win, to me, is how it comes across.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: Because this is your safety net.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: This is my genre.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm strong at lyrical, I know I'm gonna nail it, but it has to, if you're gonna have multiple solos, like you said, Ashley, I I couldn't agree more, they need to be distinctly different.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that many people care about that.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: I think they just care about the the chance to win.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, my odds are better if I have three of the same solos, one in lyrical, one in contemporary, one in open, that are exactly the same.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: And well, one of those is gonna have to get top overall.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
17:25
SPEAKER_02: And I I'm curious to hear what you all think, because I know you all judge also.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: And Amy, please talk.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: But I know that when I see a dance come on a second time and it's almost the exact same dance, I'm much harder on it the second time.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: If I see the same turn sequences, because I've already seen them and I know where the flaws are.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like I feel like there's that second solo is like nine times out of ten going to score lower than that first solo because we've seen the same tricks, we've seen the same turns, we've seen all of the same technical issues, and they're just expanded by our, you know, we we kind of zone in on them even more.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's nine times out of ten gonna score, gonna score lower than the first.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: So, does this become an issue of teachers not wanting to push their dancers because they're afraid they're going to upset a parent or a student that maybe just wants to stay in their wheelhouse?
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, how, you know, how do we as teachers in this business, you know, help push these dancers to get out of that comfort zone?
18:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's a big part of it too.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: Like saying that, you know, if you want to do two solos, that's fantastic, but they're going to be completely different.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: One will be in your wheelhouse, but then one is going to really challenge you.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: I really like that idea.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: And I think maybe even if a dancer just really, it's their senior year, they really want to do two contemporary solos, fantastic.
18:53
SPEAKER_02: Have it be by two different choreographers and two different contemporary styles.
18:56
SPEAKER_04: Because again, there's so many, there's so much fusion out there that even within the style of contemporary, there's 15, 20 different styles you could point to and say, that's also contemporary, but it's completely different than that contemporary.
19:09
SPEAKER_04: And then you're then you have more of a chance to be versatile.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: Here's if I may like take a small tangent for a second.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: This is what I've I've been talking to my contemporary students about, especially students that are on their way to college programs.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: And I have heard contemporary defined like this, and I feel like part of the problem is people don't know how to define contemporary, right?
19:28
SPEAKER_02: So what I have heard and what I base my knowledge on is the idea that contemporary obviously means whatever's happening now.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: But specifically, it changes depending on where you are in the world, right?
19:40
SPEAKER_02: East Coast of the United States is one thing.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: If you veer West Coast, we go get more commercial.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: If you veer European, we get less commercial.
19:49
SPEAKER_02: New York is kind of the middle point.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: But I've always heard that contemporary is a fusion of modern, postmodern, possibly a little bit of jazz and street styles.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: So you can dial those knobs up and down depending.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: So as I've come to understand it, New York is pretty much the knobs are even, right?
20:08
SPEAKER_02: We've got just as much modern, postmodern street styles and possibly a little bit of jazz in there.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: The farther you go West Coast, the more the dial gets turned up on the street styles.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: And the more you go European, the more the dial gets turned up on the postmodern and functional movement and experimental stuff.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: So I think all of that, no matter how you turn those dials, they all belong in the contemporary category.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you're only doing postmodern or you're only doing like Graham Horton classical modern, then it goes in the modern category.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: And I would even put postmodern in the modern category because it's a different set of rules.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: But any other fusion of those styles belongs in contemporary.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't belong in open.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Right.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: Because that's what the contemporary category is for.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think the and valid disagreements about what contemporary is is sometimes why a lot of what I would consider contemporary styles end up in open.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, that's my tirade.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy that you went there because, as all of you listeners know, our most listened to episode in existence ever and probably forever was lyrical versus contemporary.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: And I'm really happy, Ash, that you gave another beautifully defined definition, beautifully articulated definition of what you feel contemporary dance is and the knobs.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: Ugh, makes all the sense.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: Makes all the sense, y'all.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: I hope y'all take that.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Go watch what you think your contemporary dances are when you're rehearsing them, and decide: is this contemporary?
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Or is this not?
21:41
SPEAKER_02: I would say, and please remind me what was actually said on that very well listened to episode.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: I would define lyrical in comparison as, and I welcome arguments to the contrary.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: I have always heard that lyrical must be about the lyrics of the song.
21:58
SPEAKER_02: It is interpreting the lyrics.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Number one and number two, it is usually a fusion of jazz and ballet.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: Would you agree with me, Amy?
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's how I grew up with that genre.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: But kind of dialing back to contemporary, it's really interesting because, you know, at North Carolina School of the Arts, when we were in that program, you know, it was called contemporary dance, but it was very much Lamone, Horton, Graham.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: Like it was what what what many people will say modern, you know, modern training or whatnot.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: So it is interesting to see how it's, you know, changed over the years and and what has been incorporated into it.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: But you said something about like something about what is in the now kind of thing.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, you d yeah, what is current.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: And so I do, I mean, I do like that description of it.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: But moving back to lyrical, yeah, lyrical, that was what we were brought up as far as training when we were training in that style.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
22:58
SPEAKER_04: And we're all kind of of the same generation.
23:01
SPEAKER_04: Like Courtney, I think you're at the younger end.
23:03
SPEAKER_04: Amy, I think you're at the older end of like how old all four of us are.
23:06
SPEAKER_04: But like we did, we came of age learning lyrical as exactly that.
23:10
SPEAKER_04: Exactly that.
23:11
SPEAKER_04: Maybe the people before us were a little bit different, you know.
23:15
SPEAKER_04: But like come that so that's like where our understanding of the genre comes from, is from our background.
23:21
SPEAKER_04: But then that came from where our teachers came from.
23:24
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
23:24
SPEAKER_04: So like it it began somewhere in the late 70s and 80s, our teachers learned it, and you know, it's evolved since then.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when when did the oracle come about though?
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, was it the late 70s and 80s?
23:35
SPEAKER_02: Did you say 80s, 80s, 90s?
23:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I thought it was like later than that.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm I wasn't sure though.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I have heard Susie Taylor was like a huge proponent of like the lyrical movement and and people of that ilk.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: I don't pretend to be like dance history aware of exactly where that category comes from, but I think it is that generation.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: I think also that correct me if I'm wrong on on your behalf, but contemporary didn't exist as a category when I was growing up.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: No, you had lyrical, you had modern.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but very few people that I knew entered in a modern category.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: So lyrical was kind of the grab bag.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if open even existed when I was younger.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: There was an acro category that I remember.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: There was lyrical, and at the time lyrical was also contemporary, but contemporary didn't really exist yet.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: So it was kind of a catch-all.
24:26
SPEAKER_04: Or they even called it lyrical jazz, right?
24:29
SPEAKER_04: Lyrical jazz was listed as, you know.
24:31
SPEAKER_04: So it's I'm I'm curious, Amy, since we're sort of talking about how, you know, the category, not that it's become necessarily my kind of awful verbiage is a dumping ground.
24:44
SPEAKER_04: Like it's a little bit of a dumping ground for everything that's not one thing.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:50
SPEAKER_04: But since you have so much of an acro background with your teaching, what I've noticed is that not only does acro or uh does open just is a catch-all, but it it seems to serve as the acro category now.
25:03
SPEAKER_04: Because I feel like, you know, 10, 20 years ago, acro was acro.
25:07
SPEAKER_04: And if you did acro, you did acro.
25:09
SPEAKER_04: That is what you did.
25:10
SPEAKER_04: Maybe you incorporated a lyrical move here and there, a jazz move here and there, but you were doing acro, and that's the category you were in.
25:16
SPEAKER_04: Now, I almost feel like you don't see anybody in the acro category, but you're seeing so much acro in the open category that you might as well call it the acro category.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, that comes to comes back to a lot of these dances that I feel that are heavy and acro but are in the open category, are basically a jazz dance that has too many tumbling passes to be in the jazz quarter category.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: Or a contemporary number that has too many, you know, too many tricks where the feet go over the head to be in the contemporary category.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: So the teachers don't want to get the deductions there, and so they throw it into open.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: So I feel like, you know, there's they're not necessarily like cirque de soleil, which is what I want to see when it comes to acro.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: I want to see that artistic creativity in the acro category or or in well, just in general.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: But I do feel that uh the open category really has become a place for, well, we want to do one extra trick and we don't want to get the points deducted, so we're just gonna put it in open.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: I always am so excited for the open category because I don't know what I'm about to see.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: Like that's the most exciting thing for me as a judge.
26:27
SPEAKER_02: It's just a breath of fresh air.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: And then I end up watching a lot of accro.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: Right.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: Contemporary acro solos.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: Contemporary acro.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: Maybe that needs to be its own category.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of where I was getting at with some of like where we need more categories at competition.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's a lot.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, every competition is different with how they structure their awards.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think it is important.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: I and I briefly mentioned this to Leslie before we started recording.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: There's there's a handful of people out in the industry that feel that we shouldn't even be competing in genre-specific categories.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: It should just be a dance that you get crit feedback on.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: And while I can understand where people are coming from with that concept, I also feel like that I like the structure.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: I like knowing that you, you know, I have rules that as a judge, I need to make sure that you're checking off the boxes of what jazz dance is and what lyrical is.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: Because we are in this fusion world right now with all these styles blending, like acro contemporary and lyrical jazz and street hip-hop or like street jazz, whatever.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: Like there's just so many different fusions of styles that if dancers aren't understanding the difference, then when they graduate and they start teaching, then they're just gonna teach whatever they want.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: And there's not gonna be any clarification.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: I think for me that's important.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: But I also feel that because of the way our industry has evolved, there should be a contemporary jazz category.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: There could be a contemporary acro category.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: There a thousand percent should be a street jazz or a jazz funk category at competition and not just hip-hop.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Because hip-hop, there is obviously many styles of hip-hop, but some things like hip people that are hip-hop judges have an expectation of what hip hop dance is, and a lot of people are bringing street jazz to the competitive stage, and those are two different styles in my brain.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: So why can't we have subcategories?
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, why can't we?
28:33
SPEAKER_01: Dancers.
28:34
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28:39
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28:47
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28:56
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29:04
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29:11
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29:49
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29:51
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30:07
SPEAKER_00: I think that how where's the limit of that?
30:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like we could just go on and on and on.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I and I love the idea.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: So it's just like like how how would we limit that to where it wouldn't just kind of get out of control?
30:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, like do we just pick the like ones that are really most popular right now?
30:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, like like you said, like a street jazz, like, you know, I just I feel like where does it stop?
30:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: I also think it gets really tricky because these definitions aren't agreed upon by the dance community at large, right?
30:40
SPEAKER_02: In the way that tap steps are called different things depending on which lineage you learned from.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, same thing with hip-hop styles, like party dances from the 80s are called different things on the east and west coasts.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's hard to agree on these things because we've never agreed.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: And that's part of the diversity of movement.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think it'd be really hard.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: Go on, Lizzie.
31:02
SPEAKER_04: Well, and speaking to that as well, it's like I mentioned earlier about, you know, the the music box dancer would need to go in the character category, but then it's alone because nobody else has entered into the character category, and then you get a first overall character routine because you're the only one that competed there and you got that award automatically.
31:19
SPEAKER_04: Would that happen?
31:20
SPEAKER_04: Street jazz, jazz funk.
31:21
SPEAKER_04: This, like you're gonna have such limited entries, you know.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: That's what I kind of wanted to mention though, is that I don't know if ever I don't and I could be wrong, but I don't feel that every competition is rewarding a first place age 9 to 11 jazz.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: And no, not everybody is first place contemporary, but some of them do.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: So I mean like it could get very out of hand if they were.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: But you know, again, then then it in my brain, I'm just like, there's just too much.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: Like I know what you're you guys are saying, like, yeah, there could be like a trillion different categories.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Like how when where does it end?
31:57
SPEAKER_01: But also, do we need to acknowledge the best junior jazz dance and the best petite jazz dance when there's already a first overall against everybody?
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that there's just so many awards.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: I was actually just sitting here as you all were talking, and I was kind of thinking, what if the person submitting the dance could type in whatever genre they think the dance is when they help the judges out to understand what rules we are applying?
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Instead of having to kind of put it into a specific category, it could be like this, I'm entering it contemporary jazz.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: So I already know when you enter on the stage what you think you're doing.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I love that idea.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm like that.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: We just solved the we solved the problem, we solved it.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Change the industry.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: I think that way, the only way that it would work is that if you we don't highlight, you know, great jazz dance first overall and great contemporary dance first overall, because everybody will be doing such, you know, entering such fusion of styles when they're entering their dances that we wouldn't be able to like recognize those, but at least they would be potentially scored more appropriately.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: And the whole issue of did you place your dance in the right category wouldn't even be applied anymore.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: You just have to define it for yourself, which might force choreographers and dancers to talk more specifically about if we're in a contemporary category, like where are the knobs, which things are dialed up.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: And you know, we get that like fusion of contemporary acro.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: And you can say this is a contemporary acro solo, and I would judge that very differently than an acro solo.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally okay, y'all.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Um I always give these tips to all the competition owners.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Y'all should be listening to me.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm giving y'all like free consulting advice.
33:42
unknown: Okay.
33:45
SPEAKER_04: Well, so since that world has not yet come where we have these choices, I would love to hear from y'all from a judge's perspective how you currently, how you judge the open category, because we can all, I think, sort of agree on how you judge the ballet category.
33:59
SPEAKER_04: My favorite thing to say ever, a plie is a plie is a plie.
34:02
SPEAKER_04: If you don't do your plie right, you're getting points off because you didn't do a plie right.
34:05
SPEAKER_04: But in the open category, there's many things that could be right or wrong, or but you how how are you comparing it?
34:12
SPEAKER_04: Like how do you even judge this category?
34:14
SPEAKER_04: And based on what we say, listeners, is this even a good choice to put your dance here based on what we uh we're about to say to you?
34:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: I think that for me, the tricky part about the open category is that you have less information to go on, right?
34:28
SPEAKER_02: What you're spending the first 20 seconds figuring out, because we don't get, you know, a dossier that says this is the open category slash contemporary acro.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: We get this is the open category.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: So my first 20 seconds are me trying to decide what style or styles you're using.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: And then based on that information, I do my best to apply the rules that I think apply to these various styles.
34:53
SPEAKER_02: Now, what I talk about, what I harp on in the open category is making your movement, making clear choices about movement.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: Because I don't have the rules to go on, I'm gonna talk to you about not going halfway into a texture or a line or a sound.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: I am going to talk to you about making bold, clear choices so nothing looks like an accident unless it's supposed to look like an accident, right?
35:19
SPEAKER_02: Unless you're doing a character number and you trip and it was supposed to, you know, just really defining for yourself what you want the audience to get out of this is what I end up harping on a lot of the time.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: And then you can tell, you're like, oh, I see.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: We're like pulling from jazz here.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna talk to you about your solid, you know, parallel second position, how your knees should be tracking over your toes.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: We we when I see glimpses of that sort of thing, I'll dive into the the style that most fits what I'm seeing.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: But it's hard for it's hard for us to understand exactly where you're at unless you come out right out of the gate and you go, and this is a soft shoe number.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: This is intentionally a soft shoe number, and we're doing that.
35:58
SPEAKER_02: And I go, I see where we are.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: Like this is a historical recreation, for example, of you know, something from 1910.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: I understand where we are history-wise, and I can talk to you about it.
36:09
SPEAKER_02: But it's yeah, fusions are a little harder.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: For me, two sense.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, for me, it's really transitions.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like like that's just the what the glue that ties everything together.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you're transitioning, you know, your fusion of jazz into your round off back handspring, I really want to see that like be seamless and it makes sense and it be like a clear choice and a and a clear direction that you're going with a piece.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to, you know, see you being super jazzy snazzy and then all of a sudden we're gonna like prep for this round off back handspring.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: And I know it's gonna come because I can like see the pause, you know, see the approach happen.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: So I really want to see the transitions between what you're using in this category to really make sense and be clear.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't ever want to question, you know, what what is this?
37:04
SPEAKER_00: I just want you to be really direct with, you know, and confident about what you're what you're performing and what you're giving us and what you're giving your audience.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: Be that, you know, you're playing a per a certain character because there's not a character category, you know.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: I want to know exactly what character you're playing.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: I just want you to be very clean and clear about, you know, the choices that you're making and and so we're not questioning what something is.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: And and I think for a contemporary category and an open category, like I think a sickled foot is sometimes appropriate, but you better not be halfway into a sickled foot, or we're gonna be very confused about what what genre we're in and what what you're after.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: Right, anyway, right.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think like as you guys were both kind of saying that as to how how it's judged, I'm still stuck on the dancer that has too many acro tricks for the lyrical category and they plop it into open.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm still stuck on that in my head, and I keep going back to like if I already saw your lyrical, you come out, you do another lyrical.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: This one has one extra, maybe you threw your front aerial this time, and oh well, and we did, you know, two extra acro tricks, and that's why it's here.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Then I'm I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna be like, but if you're truly doing lyrical, then why do we need the acro?
38:25
SPEAKER_01: Because acro isn't lyrical, you know, now refusing styles, which like we said is allowed.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: But I think it has to be like a true, like 50-50 almost split if you're if you're gonna be in the open category and it's a lyrical acro, and not just I checked off the four that I'm not allowed, like, you know, I could only have three and now I added the four.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, if you're really gonna go there, if you're really gonna put it in the open, then I need to see that like you're giving me a true lyrical acro routine, or we just do one lyrical routine and eliminate one of those darn tricks because it's not gonna make or break your dance.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: It's not.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think everyone thinks these acro dance acro tricks are what's going to make you win.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: And I want to see you actually dance the style that you are entering.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: And I don't care about the acro tricks, they're like taking over the world for some reason.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think people and I understand where this comes from because I remember being a competition dancer and going, Oh, if I can my senior solo in 2006, I did a Fossi jazz number in heels, and it was very important to me that I did an aerial in heels.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: For a Fosse number.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: For a Fosse number.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, who, why did I think that was a good idea?
39:41
SPEAKER_02: Bless my teacher, who was like, you really don't need to do that.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: But I I felt like it was the most impressive thing I can do.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: And listen, I've danced on cruise ships.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: I had to do a good aerial in heels, and you know, good practice.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: But um, but that's not kind of the point.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: And and I understand that a lot of people think acro tricks will get them points.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: And I I've always said, if I never see another aerial in my whole life, it will be too soon.
40:07
SPEAKER_02: I've seen so many aerials, and even good ones at this point, they're not interesting.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: This turns in second, they're just we see so many of them, so even the good ones, I shrug.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: I go, yeah, that's great.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna take any points off, but like I wish you had made a different choice.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: Right.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Because there's so many other steps that could be used.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: There's so many other steps.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: So many.
40:28
SPEAKER_04: Or like, you know, don't just do 16 allys a cones, throw in an attitude, throw in a front attitude, a back attitude.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: Do something cooler in the midst of your turn.
40:38
SPEAKER_04: Do an axle in the middle of your come on now.
40:40
SPEAKER_04: Like if you can do 16 allys a cone turns.
40:42
SPEAKER_04: I know.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Miss Axles.
40:44
SPEAKER_02: I miss an axle in the middle of a turn sequence.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: I also always suggest to kids who, if you've ever listened to my critiques, if I see a dancer struggling with turns in second, or if I see a dancer that is completely capable of other turns, I always suggest turns for fifth.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: I never see them.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: You can do them just as long as you do turns in second.
41:03
SPEAKER_02: Add a double, single, single, double, single, single, triple, land it brilliantly.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: So much more interesting than any turns in second you could do.
41:12
SPEAKER_04: Right.
41:12
SPEAKER_04: Give me a PK turn sequence.
41:14
SPEAKER_04: PK turn, PK turn, double PK turn.
41:17
SPEAKER_04: There's so many other things, guys, and like they're gonna be better for you.
41:20
SPEAKER_04: Ugh.
41:21
SPEAKER_04: I could go on a tangent about turns.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: I miss flatte day turns.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't see properly placed turned-out flatte turns.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Y'all know why?
41:30
SPEAKER_01: Because they're harder than turns in Alisican.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: So everyone.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: You have to use your rotation.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: You have to understand how to do a turned-out pirouette.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: You have my.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: It's it's backwards now.
41:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, I was very, like, I was very brought up that like Alisican turns should have only been done by male dancers back in my day.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Like it was like that was not true.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was like that was not the dancers, uh, the turns that the female dancers did.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: So totally.
42:01
SPEAKER_02: And I and I really do appreciate that like women are now taking over traditionally male steps.
42:07
SPEAKER_02: I love to say, oh my gosh, women doing double tours is my favorite thing as well.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: They're so hard.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: Let's do them.
42:14
SPEAKER_02: Ladies, let's do all the double.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: I never see a double tour.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh, 540s, so hard.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: I've seen a few people at competition though do some like ladies doing 540s.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's I die on the floor every time.
42:25
SPEAKER_02: But my point was, yes, it is a importantly, turns in second are a ballet trick.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: Ballet tech, if you do a turn in second in an open category, I go, we are in ballet land now.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna judge this moment as if it was a ballet solo because that's what it's supposed to be.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, bringing it back to the open category.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
42:46
SPEAKER_04: Well, Courtney, you did a little poll in our Facebook group in preparation for this episode, and I find it really, really, really interesting that out of what, 15 responses, over half of them, the reasoning for putting a dance into open was exactly what you said a few minutes ago.
43:03
SPEAKER_04: We had too many acro tricks for these other categories.
43:07
SPEAKER_04: But some of them did say, but we aren't up to par to compete in the acro category against like gymnastics-y acro.
43:14
SPEAKER_04: So we put it in open.
43:15
SPEAKER_04: But there was never like, there's a couple of responses that said, you know, it was a fusion of this.
43:19
SPEAKER_04: We thought it would do better because it was a jazzy or lyrical and we didn't want to put it in lyrical.
43:23
SPEAKER_04: Like, there were some explanations that did sort of make that kind of sense to me.
43:26
SPEAKER_04: But I found it very, very telling that most of the responses were we had too many acro tricks.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Like this person, Ashley, responded and said, My daughter's first solo last year was in the open category.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: Too many acro tricks for it to be put in the lyrical category, but not enough to put it in the acro category.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: I will say that it feels like everyone's kids are in the junior division, compete in open these days.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: The field she was competing in was extremely crowded versus the other categories.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's because acro is ruling the world and everyone thinks that they need five aerial.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: And three front hand springs in a dance.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm going to go back to eliminate those skills and put it in the category that it belongs because no offense to the open category, but I'm kind of going back to what Ashley said at the very beginning.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to see something that just doesn't fit anywhere else.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: If this is a lyrical dance, I don't feel like that the excuse, because to me it's an excuse.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: The excuse is, well, I needed to have my four acro tricks in my solo.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: No, you didn't.
44:29
SPEAKER_02: Pick the three tricks that you're best at.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you have three favorite tricks.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: And then do a PK turn.
44:36
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like just take that moment and do another thing, like anything else.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: And I think that the rule was probably initially set only three acro tricks to keep things in the lyrical category, not to push it over against the category.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: And I do find it kind of interesting with everyone's responses in the group.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, Leslie, like the majority is that we had too many tricks.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: I find that interesting to see that many people actually following the rules in a way, because I don't feel that that is happening when I'm judging.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm sitting there watching dances that are in the jazz category, that are in the lyrical contemporary, whatever it is, and I'm counting how how many tricks have you done?
45:22
SPEAKER_01: How many acro elements have you done?
45:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, and then in my brain, I'm like, my recommendation is put it in the oven category, which, you know, is not really what I want to tell them to do.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: I really want to say, hey, eliminate a few of those tricks because this is a fantastic dance.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: But why is there so much acro happening?
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just wish we would get back to just like real dancing, you know, like real dancing, like pushing ourselves as choreographers, you know, to just think outside of the box, take the risk, and just put it out there.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like all the dances, just everything looks so so similar.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: It's the same acro tricks, it's the same turn sequence, it's the same angst in these like contemporary solos.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: And I just, I just wish we could just get back to like dancing.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: And I just I I miss it, you know.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: I just I I miss the creativity.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I know that it's competition and people want to win, and it's hard to put yourself out there, but you know, I feel like that's really the only way we're gonna continue to grow this art form.
46:30
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, maybe this isn't a hot take.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: I don't think it is, but like, should the point be to win if you're only winning in a certain way where you have to kind of mold the rules around yourself?
46:43
SPEAKER_02: Like maybe you should be competing.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: Maybe you should be competing in a really crowded category because then if you win that category, you sh you sure deserve it.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: As opposed to like coming in what's what feels to me like second because you you attempted to be and I I don't know.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: I feel like maybe competitions aren't about winning the trophy.
47:05
SPEAKER_02: I mean, again, maybe not a hot take, but like to me, competitions.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh I wrote a blog about this, the first blog for IDA.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:15
SPEAKER_02: But like what I got out of competitions was not, oh my gosh, check out my trophy.
47:20
SPEAKER_02: I won some trophies, but like, no one in my professional life has ever asked me, was I crowned Miss Star Barbie dream both number?
47:32
SPEAKER_02: No one, no one, no one in my professional career has ever asked me about my trophies.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: And so if that's the case, then why are we competing?
47:40
SPEAKER_02: Right?
47:41
SPEAKER_02: Are we competing to be inspired and to be on stage and to learn and to grow?
47:45
SPEAKER_02: Then it shouldn't matter what category you're in or whether the category is crowded.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: Right?
47:50
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: I think that everyone's kind of trying to like not cheat the system, but it's no different than the level talk.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: And I I feel like in a way, like correct category placement goes hand in hand with the level talk.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: Everyone's like, well, you know, it's not fair, it's not fair, it's not fair.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: That's what everyone's excuse is when it comes to where dancers belong.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's not fair if they don't get to do their four acro tricks because they've they're really good at them.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: So why can't they do them in the jazz category?
48:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not fair.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, actually, we're all we all should be competing against each other because it shouldn't be about, well, there's not gonna be anyone in this category, so that means that I'm automatically gonna win.
48:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, why is that how we're approaching competition?
48:33
SPEAKER_02: Is that win worth anything?
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: It's an automatic win.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, good for you.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't you like, don't you want competition?
48:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: Isn't it more of an achievement if you actually did get in the top 10 against 500 people versus 40?
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so.
48:50
SPEAKER_02: Most definitely.
48:52
SPEAKER_02: So too.
48:53
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: But maybe I'm just old school.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we yeah, maybe we're just old school and we have to just catch up with the times, you guys.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
49:06
SPEAKER_04: Well, and I think too, just something to also just point out to our listeners.
49:10
SPEAKER_04: We do not hate acro.
49:11
SPEAKER_04: I do not hate acro.
49:13
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I love it.
49:14
SPEAKER_04: If you are doing acro in the correct place, give me all of your acro.
49:18
SPEAKER_04: Do it well, do it safely, do it in a way that is explosive and entertaining and creative.
49:24
SPEAKER_04: And but do it in the right place because it just doesn't, it doesn't need to go everywhere.
49:29
SPEAKER_04: Just like, you know, all scone turns don't need to go everywhere and a paradidal doesn't need to go everywhere.
49:33
SPEAKER_04: Like nothing needs to go everywhere.
49:35
SPEAKER_04: Just like no, find your lane and stick in it, you know?
49:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:38
SPEAKER_02: I also to play devil's advocate, I think maybe there's also a problem with how we're defining acro tricks.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
49:46
SPEAKER_02: Because not to say that we can't all agree that an aerial is an acro trick, a backtuck is an acro trick, but I'm thinking about like in the contemporary category, some like floor work really athletic partnering.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, is that considered acro?
50:02
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm of the mind that, like, no, that's contemporary, and we should excellent acrobatic floor work in a contemporary category should not count as acro.
50:11
SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
50:12
SPEAKER_02: That's because that's inherently part of contact improvisation and like counterbalance and weight sharing and like where maybe it's about talking more specifically about what acro tricks are and where they belong.
50:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I totally agree.
50:29
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
50:30
SPEAKER_04: Well, because there is there's more now than there ever was of these kind of really innovative floor work things and headsprings and head spins and like all kinds of things that like to me, for me, I could never do any, I couldn't even do an aerial.
50:44
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
50:45
SPEAKER_04: So, like the the way that I think of acro has changed so much over the years that it's like, oh yeah, that does look like a contemporary piece of floor work, but it also seems to take so much more than just a nice lunge.
50:57
SPEAKER_04: Then, you know what I mean?
50:58
SPEAKER_04: Like to me, those two things are not the same.
51:01
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I I do think that it's an interesting conversation to think about what is acro, what is considered acro.
51:08
SPEAKER_04: What does a competition consider accro?
51:10
SPEAKER_04: Is it just that your your feet went above your head?
51:12
SPEAKER_04: Is it when your hands move the floor, like take out, you know, come away from the floor?
51:16
SPEAKER_04: Like it's there, the definitions are so open to interpretation, I think.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: And there's not like there's not a real like true syllabus for each style, you know, that that is agreed upon by all the profession professionals that so so there's so much interpretation that, you know, I think you have to really, unless competitions will specifically list, you know, what they consider, you know, steps in each genre that teachers can go by, which we should know already, but you know, sometimes we just need that refresher.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, then you're having to, you know, are you having to re-categorize it every competition, you know?
51:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
51:57
SPEAKER_00: It would it be great to have like a federation, like like a one governing body over dance competitions that like have all the all the things out there, and then we could follow all those rules for every competition.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:12
SPEAKER_02: Right.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: And I and I think part of the problem is professionals in the industry don't agree necessarily about what dancing belongs in what category.
52:20
SPEAKER_02: And and I think we solved the problem earlier when we said, you tell us what you think this category is, and we will judge you based on that's it.
52:29
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
52:30
SPEAKER_01: Even if, like, I mean, it would be awesome if that was it for the entire competition, but even if we just let that be an option for the open category, right?
52:39
SPEAKER_01: When they're applying for the open category and they're entering a dance that is a fusion style or doesn't belong in jazz or ballet or lyrical, then you can tell us what it is.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: And then on our score sheets, it says open category, sub label, subtopic, subgenre, whatever they say.
52:56
SPEAKER_02: Because then we could get really specific.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: You could say, you know, this is not hip hop in general, this is like West Coast popping.
53:04
SPEAKER_02: Like judge me on those rules.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, or you know, like ballroom, if because there's usually not a ballroom category.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: Or what about all of the world dance styles that don't ever get their their category, you know, properly?
53:19
SPEAKER_01: Like I've seen a handful of competitions have like a category for world dance.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: Traditional dances, yeah.
53:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's like cultural or world, and I love that.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, not obviously it's competitions slim in that category, but that's where the Irish step dancers can go.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: That's where the African dances can go.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: That's where like those beautiful I've seen hula on stage before.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't think clogging is cultural dance, but that lives in its own world.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like clogging.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: But like again, like the cloggers don't have anywhere to go.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: A lot of competitions don't have a clogging category, so they have to go in the open category.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: It's like, and then I don't know what it is.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, Ash, you're you're spending the first 20 seconds navigating.
53:59
SPEAKER_01: What in the world style am I am I watching right now?
54:02
SPEAKER_01: If the teachers could tell us ahead of time, yeah, wouldn't that solve a lot of problems?
54:06
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't that give 20 seconds more feedback from Ashley Marinelli on her critique instead of her trying to figure out what in the world this style is?
54:15
unknown: Yeah.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: Make our job easier and it would make us score you more appropriately.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: So I think we covered a lot of open chat tonight.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: Anything that we missed that we need to tackle or we're feeling feeling pretty good about it.
54:31
SPEAKER_04: I think I think this was really great.
54:32
SPEAKER_04: This went in a lot of great directions, and yeah, I think had a lot of really interesting points of view that I think people are gonna be like, oh, I never thought of that, which is great.
54:40
SPEAKER_04: I agree.
54:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
54:42
SPEAKER_04: I can't handle the dials.
54:43
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I visualized it and I was like, because I remember, and you can put this in maybe Courtney, because I did want to mention this earlier, but we we went away.
54:51
SPEAKER_04: When we did the IDA virtual competitions, and we had so many dances from around the world, from countries that I didn't even realize had competitive dance in in the way that we understand it.
55:01
SPEAKER_04: Some of the, some of the European dances that came in, you know, were entered into categories that I was like, okay, I'm gonna watch a contemporary dance.
55:08
SPEAKER_04: And then I saw something that I was like, I don't see this as contemporary.
55:12
SPEAKER_04: But then Ashley, when you were talking about the fact that there is some street involved in some other in different forms of contemporary dance, I was like, oh, wait, yes, the people from the Netherlands, that's what they were doing.
55:23
SPEAKER_04: And that does belong in that category.
55:24
SPEAKER_04: It just like light bulb went off in my head that different parts of the world, you know, do things differently.
55:30
SPEAKER_04: And and that's the beauty of the dials, is that like you have to you have to figure out what where your dials are set to to understand where you are in the contemporary landscape.
55:39
SPEAKER_02: And I remember, so I lived in Europe for a while and I was dancing in Austria, and I had to redefine what I thought of as contemporary because specifically the people I was around didn't called called everything.
55:53
SPEAKER_02: Wait, now I'm trying to remember what it was.
55:56
SPEAKER_02: They would only call like traditional modern styles Graham Horton Lamon modern.
56:02
SPEAKER_02: Everything else was contemporary, even postmodern was contemporary.
56:05
SPEAKER_02: So like terms change.
56:07
SPEAKER_02: But I was on that, I was a judge on this virtual competition that we did, and a lot of European the street styles house dance based.
56:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's a huge as I experienced in Europe, house is like taught well and often, and and it would be so nice instead of saying like this is a a hip hop dance, you go, no, this is a house dance.
56:29
SPEAKER_02: This is like judge me on on that criteria.
56:32
SPEAKER_02: And like I think people well versed in like different styles go, oh, I I can identify that immediately.
56:38
SPEAKER_02: I know how to talk about it.
56:39
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, that's my two cents great.
56:42
SPEAKER_01: I just randomly pulled up a competition's like categories.
56:46
SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: I won't say who, but they do have a clogging category.
56:51
SPEAKER_01: They have acro ballet clogging, contemporary hip hop, international, jazz, lyrical, modern, musical theater, point tap, song and dance, open, and then the pro-am category.
57:03
SPEAKER_01: What is pro-am?
57:04
SPEAKER_01: Pro am is when you're an adult, but you like teach or make some kind of money from dancing.
57:12
SPEAKER_01: Which I find interesting that it that's listed as a a category, a genre category and not a level.
57:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:19
SPEAKER_04: Well, because then that means that that dancer can do whatever in that category, which is sort of annoying, you know?
57:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: But usually that's kind of like that's the gist of what is offered at competitions in in the category breakdown.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: So I do see how a lot of things can fall into open.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: And especially if teachers are just like, you know what, I just want to play it safe and put this dance in the open because it I just don't want it to get ripped a new one in jazz or ripped a new one in another genre that it doesn't really fit.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't and that's I think that's the bet for me.
57:51
SPEAKER_01: That's what I is the best description.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: It needs to not really fit anywhere else.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:57
SPEAKER_01: Not just be the throwaway category.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, Leslie.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, y'all, we we talked open tonight.
58:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh loved all of the advice that we all gave.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: I think this will be very informative and helpful.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: So, hey, y'all, if you have an open solo out there, if you have an open dance listening and you're about to enter it in the open category, really make sure that it belongs there after all of this feedback though.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: Your judges, your judges that are going to be sitting behind the table this season gave you.
58:27
SPEAKER_01: That is what we're here to do.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: We're here to help give some advice, some input, um, maybe a different perspective that you never thought of.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: And I'm so happy we did this episode.
58:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm also, yes, Ashley, thank you so much for that beautiful contemporary definition.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: Ugh, living for it.
58:43
SPEAKER_02: And I would love to hear alternate definitions, because that is by no means the end-all be-all definition.
58:49
SPEAKER_02: That is the one I go by, that is the one I tell my students about, but there are many different definitions.
58:54
SPEAKER_02: So don't let me be the end of the conversation.
58:57
SPEAKER_04: Yes, keep the conversation going, which is always what we want here on Making the Impact, is to spark information and to spark a conversation and a new perspective.
59:05
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
59:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you both for joining us this evening on the podcast.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: And if you wouldn't mind sharing one final tidbit of advice in regards to the open category to lead us out.
59:19
SPEAKER_02: I will say I love the open category.
59:21
SPEAKER_02: Take advantage of the open category, use it.
59:24
SPEAKER_02: Use it to do things that you've never seen before.
59:27
SPEAKER_02: That's my favorite kind of open dance, open category dancing is be unlike anything you've seen at competition.
59:34
SPEAKER_02: That's to me what the open category is for.
59:36
SPEAKER_02: And that's what makes it so exciting.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: I would say for me, the open category is to allow yourself to be as creative as possible, to be very clean and clear with what you're giving your audience, to take the risk, and to just put yourself out there and just enjoy the fusion of styles that you're giving us.
59:58
SPEAKER_01: We hope you enjoyed our throwback episode on the open category.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: Special shout out to our IDA judges, Ashley and Amy, for joining us on the chat.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: You can find Ashley at ALM433 and Amy at me.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_04: Don't forget to follow Making the Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_04: And if you want more exclusive episodes, support our podcast by joining our Platinum Premium membership for only$5 a month.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_04: Join now at Impact Dance Adjudicators.com slash Platinum Premium or click the link in our show notes.
1:00:37
SPEAKER_04: Coming up in the next few weeks, look forward to an episode on inclusivity and diversity at Dance Competitions, another IDA competition feature, and an episode all about point.