Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Creating Safety Within The Therapeutic Relationship with Doreen G. Hills, MS, NCC, LPC

Transcript

Creating Safety Within The Therapeutic Relationship with Doreen G. Hills, MS, NCC, LPC · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: So five, four, three, two, and one. Our folks, welcome
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: back to the podcast. I'm thrilled to have back Doreen Hills. Doreen,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: welcome back.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: All right. Doreen is a founder and director of the
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Center for Healing Trauma and Attachment and a mental health
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  Speaker 1: professional with more than two decades of experience. Her work
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: focuses on complex trauma and attachment, integrating mind-body approaches, including EMDR,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: EMDR SANTRE, and the Neurosequential Model of Therapeutics. Her work
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: included serving as a caseworker, residential manager, and hotline worker,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: as well as working with fishermen, orphans, and the Muslim
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: community in the Philippines, experiences that helped shape her understanding
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: of trauma, resilience, and community. All right, Doreen, just a
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: little bit about you. Before we get going, share with
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  Speaker 1: our listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I, well, I moved from one place to another,
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  Speaker 2: but originally I came from the Philippines. Came from the Philippines,
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  Speaker 2: and that's where I had my background of working with vast,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: you know, vast population, you know, from working with, you know,
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  Speaker 2: with Muslims, Muslim population, poverty stricken individuals, fishermen, you Even
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  Speaker 2: children that were, oh, it's not adoption, but, you know,
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  Speaker 2: they're homeless and they, you know, they're on their own.
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  Speaker 2: And then I moved to New York, had, you know,
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  Speaker 2: learned to understand the American culture, understand a lot of things,
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  Speaker 2: adjusted there for quite some time, did my master's there
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  Speaker 2: in counseling psychology. And I was there for many years
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  Speaker 2: and then moved to Colorado. Now I am in Colorado.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I've been a provider, private practitioner, solo practitioner for over
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  Speaker 2: 20 years. And I was also interested about doing nonprofit work.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: And I think this is something to do rooted on
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  Speaker 2: where I came from. Um, and so, you know, I,
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  Speaker 2: I still hold a little bit of private practice work
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  Speaker 2: and I'm also doing, um, nonprofit work as, um, you know,
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  Speaker 2: as a founder, executive director, and also doing, you know,
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  Speaker 2: clinical services such as direct care, direct, um, clinical care
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  Speaker 2: for trauma, trauma, uh, clients, and also doing clinical supervision
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  Speaker 2: with my staff. So a lot of hats there, right? Just,
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  Speaker 2: you know.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of hats. But before we get going, I
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  Speaker 1: know one of the things you do to support the
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: work you're doing is you're having an annual charity ball
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: in November. And we're going to talk about that and
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: give people an opportunity to help support you with donations,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: et cetera. But before we get there, we're going to
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  Speaker 1: start off by– Maybe talking about complex trauma and then
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  Speaker 1: segue into the safety within the therapeutic relationship.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So in beginning to talk about complex trauma, how
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: do you want to start? How do you define it?
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  Speaker 2: Yes. So, you know, we often think, you know, even
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: we look at trauma as, okay, it's PTSD. And we
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: have the vision of veterans or soldiers that go to
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  Speaker 2: war or experience horrific natural situations or even natural disasters.
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  Speaker 2: But I would like to convey to the listeners, PTSD
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  Speaker 2: is one kind of trauma. But what I would like
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  Speaker 2: to emphasize here, complex trauma is different. I mean, it
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  Speaker 2: interweaves from time to time, depending on the story of
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: the person. But what I would like to distinguish, what
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  Speaker 2: complex trauma is about, is it stems at a very
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  Speaker 2: early age. It is a rupture. It is a pervasive
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  Speaker 2: rupture of the relationship between the child and the caregiving system.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm going to slow down here a little bit.
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  Speaker 2: Because complex trauma stems in that rupture where the caregiver
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  Speaker 2: can be the source of danger. And so when you
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  Speaker 2: think about this, when a child experienced this at a
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  Speaker 2: very early age, to the point maybe when they don't
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  Speaker 2: even have the capacity to express their feeling or express words,
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  Speaker 2: you know, it impacts their developmental milestones. which impacts their
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  Speaker 2: affect regulation, their behavior, their cognitive functioning, the way they
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  Speaker 2: express themselves to the world, the way they view future,
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  Speaker 2: the way they view and trust other people. So it
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  Speaker 2: can really ripple. It's a complicated matter.
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  Speaker 1: Now, excuse me for interrupting. Are we talking about, you're
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  Speaker 1: mentioning the caregiver. and rupture in safety, are we just
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  Speaker 1: talking about sexual abuse? Or are we talking about physical abuse,
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  Speaker 1: emotional abuse, ruptures in attachment, all of that?
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  Speaker 2: All of that.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: All of that. And even emotional neglect, even physical neglect,
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  Speaker 2: you know, those unspoken, those unspoken rupture. You know, and
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  Speaker 2: oftentimes I'm glad that you pointed that out, Guy, because
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  Speaker 2: when we, okay, when we think about it, okay, is
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  Speaker 2: it just sexual assault, sexual molestation? Complex trauma has something
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  Speaker 2: to do with the care and the caregiver's inability and
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  Speaker 2: failure to meet the child's need. And so, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's not to blame the caregiver because, you know, I
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  Speaker 2: don't want people to think, you know, that, okay, it
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  Speaker 2: is their fault. But, you know, we also need to
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  Speaker 2: consider if this caregiver experienced trauma in their lifetime, and
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  Speaker 2: that's all they know. That's all they know. That's what I,
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  Speaker 2: you know, they're oriented for many, many years. And so
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  Speaker 2: it's kind of like the intergenerational, the legacy trauma to
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  Speaker 2: where it gets passed on from one generation to another.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm talking about, you know, the way they provide
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  Speaker 2: caregiving to the child. That's all they know.
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  Speaker 1: You also mentioned as a comparison kind of single event
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  Speaker 1: trauma such as like a car accident or war trauma.
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  Speaker 1: How does that differentiate between complex trauma? Does complex trauma,
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  Speaker 1: does that necessarily imply elongated or exposure to it, ongoing
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  Speaker 1: events and exposure to neglect, etc.
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  Speaker 2: So the single, what they call single traumas, what you mentioned,
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  Speaker 2: oftentimes it is very isolated to the environmental situation, to
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  Speaker 2: where the child or the adult gets exposed to natural
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  Speaker 2: disaster beyond control or even war situation. What distinguished between
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  Speaker 2: PTSD or acute stress disorder to complex trauma is is
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  Speaker 2: the nature of the caregiving system. So let's say, I'll
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  Speaker 2: give you an example. Let's say someone, you know, had
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  Speaker 2: an accident. So maybe there's two people, experienced the same situation.
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  Speaker 2: You know, they've experienced a car accident. Person A came
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  Speaker 2: back home from the hospital and they were greeted and
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  Speaker 2: welcomed by a very loving, supportive family. The chances that
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  Speaker 2: this person will, you know, continue to, you know, trauma
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  Speaker 2: to linger is going to be very short-term. And that
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  Speaker 2: is more of an acute stress, you know, because of
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  Speaker 2: what happened. They still need to do processing, but it's
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  Speaker 2: going to be a short-term impact. Whereas let's say person B,
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  Speaker 2: same thing that happened, had car accident, went to the hospital,
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  Speaker 2: came home, nobody is there. Nobody is there to take
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  Speaker 2: care of them. Nobody is there to support, to provide
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  Speaker 2: the nurture, the care. Oh, and by the way, when
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  Speaker 2: the caregiving system is there or relative, they're still recuperating
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  Speaker 2: from their wound, from that accident, and they're getting abused
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  Speaker 2: at the same time. So the likelihood of that population
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  Speaker 2: you know having much more of a long-term impact of
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  Speaker 2: the trauma will be you know it's it's completely you
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  Speaker 2: know it's possible it's it's obvious that person may develop
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  Speaker 2: even see you know complex PTSD or you know that
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  Speaker 2: ongoing enduring pervasive complex trauma Does that make sense?
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  Speaker 1: It does make sense. With the understanding that everyone experiences
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  Speaker 1: these events differently and complex trauma can show up in
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  Speaker 1: many different ways, what do you see? For the benefit
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  Speaker 1: of our listeners, when these kids come into your office,
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  Speaker 1: how are they showing up?
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  Speaker 2: Many ways. In fact, these are the three common things
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  Speaker 2: that I've witnessed as a child therapist. They can show
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  Speaker 2: and manifest the trauma through people pleasing. They're pleasing to please.
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  Speaker 2: Everything that you do, everything that you say, they will
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  Speaker 2: just follow. They're the very compliant, very likable child client
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  Speaker 2: and even adult client, right? Then there is this person
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  Speaker 2: who is very hypervigilant, not trusting whatever you say or
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  Speaker 2: very avoidant, very hard to work with. You will notice
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  Speaker 2: between the two of you that, okay, maybe we need
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  Speaker 2: to be done with the session in very early, 30 minutes.
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  Speaker 2: I'm okay. I don't want to see you because it's
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  Speaker 2: too overwhelming. Or there's also this person which I find very,
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  Speaker 2: this classic presentation of shutdown. You know, that there is
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  Speaker 2: really nothing there. That no matter what you do as
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  Speaker 2: a clinician, there is nothing. And you can feel, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's in the pit of your tummy, like there's nothing.
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  Speaker 2: It's like abyss. So those are the classic presentation that I've,
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  Speaker 2: you know, that I've noticed when someone, you know, experience
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  Speaker 2: complex trauma. And that can also, you can see that with,
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  Speaker 2: you know, with people that experience PTSD or acute stress,
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  Speaker 2: the difference is the story. The difference if, if, and
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  Speaker 2: when as a clinician, we, not only focus on the symptoms,
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  Speaker 2: because some of them will kind of like it will merge.
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  Speaker 2: It will look like, oh, okay, this is just a
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  Speaker 2: single event, right? But when we understand their story, their
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  Speaker 2: family system, how were you taken care of growing up?
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  Speaker 2: Who was there to support you? Who's there to provide
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  Speaker 2: you nourishment and nurture when you're in pain? or when
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  Speaker 2: you're hurting, that's where you will see the difference.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm guessing also you have the story of what happened,
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  Speaker 1: but there's also the meaning, right, that these kids give
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  Speaker 1: to that story.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. And For, you know, for us as helpers, how,
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  Speaker 2: you know, for us to get deep to that is
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  Speaker 2: the main, you know, main focus of this session is
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  Speaker 2: how do we provide safety?
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  Speaker 1: Right. That's a great segue into that topic. And what
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  Speaker 1: does that mean, safety? Safety. I mean, obviously, we can
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  Speaker 1: understand that, but how do you define that within the
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  Speaker 1: therapeutic context?
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  Speaker 2: I actually wanted to just invite everyone right now to
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  Speaker 2: ponder a little bit, slow down, and think of one
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  Speaker 2: of your cases that you believe is you're able to
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  Speaker 2: develop and form safety. And what does that look like?
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  Speaker 2: That you really feel, ah, I get it. You know,
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  Speaker 2: I get it. The client gets it. We both get it.
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  Speaker 2: I always start with safety. There's a cardinal question here
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to share with everyone. And this is, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I borrowed this from the Complex Trauma Training Consortium, so
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  Speaker 2: this is not something I made up. But I've done this,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I've shared this when I do trainings. Given
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  Speaker 2: the totality of my relationship with the individual, with the
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  Speaker 2: client that you work with, that we work with, is
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  Speaker 2: it likely that they see me as being on their side?
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  Speaker 1: Being on their side? Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. So I'm going back to, okay, if we look
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  Speaker 2: at safety in the lens of complex trauma, what is
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  Speaker 2: the first thing that got violated at a very young age? Trust.
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  Speaker 2: And we know that we trust someone. We start to trust.
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  Speaker 2: to feel that we can trust this person internally, externally,
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  Speaker 2: and relationally when we feel safe with them. And so,
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  Speaker 2: you know, think about the time it can be, you know,
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  Speaker 2: your coworker or your parents, you know, how do we know,
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  Speaker 2: how do we feel that we can trust that person?
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  Speaker 2: It is when, you know, for me, it is when
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  Speaker 2: I can be myself. That there's no judgment. That I
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  Speaker 2: don't need to be afraid to speak up, to say whatever,
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  Speaker 2: you know, painful stuff, good stuff, scary stuff, or whatever, right?
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  Speaker 2: Big emotions. And the moment I stop, you know, share
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  Speaker 2: what I have to say that I don't feel the
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  Speaker 2: judgment or I don't feel like I have to carry
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  Speaker 2: that person, you know, that listener's pain.
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  Speaker 1: How do you, how do you, how do you do
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  Speaker 1: that as a clinician? How do you begin to establish
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  Speaker 1: safety as a clinician?
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  Speaker 2: I think it always, it has to start with us.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it has to start with, you know, that
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  Speaker 2: embodied internal safe, you know, they call it like Bonnie
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  Speaker 2: Badenox call it, or even Polly Bagel, you know, that
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  Speaker 2: safety interception to where you have to have that internal
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  Speaker 2: safety insight in you before you can provide external and
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  Speaker 2: relational safety to your clients. And how does that look like?
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  Speaker 2: So I have something I wanted to just maybe, you know,
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  Speaker 2: for us to ponder. First is, you know, how do
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  Speaker 2: I truly, you know, how do I truly and genuinely
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  Speaker 2: feel about a specific case? And we really have to
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  Speaker 2: Answer that truthfully. And then some of these, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I got some questions here I would like to just
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: throw here. You know, how do we name and how
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: do we normalize where it is residing in our body?
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  Speaker 2: You know, those emotions. What do we do? How do
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  Speaker 2: we name them? How do we normalize them? How is
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  Speaker 2: this triggering me? How is this case, this specific case
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  Speaker 2: triggering me? What part of this, what part of this
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  Speaker 2: specific case or this specific person triggers me? You know,
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  Speaker 2: what part of me is getting triggered by this case?
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  Speaker 2: What are my challenges right now? What am I learning
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  Speaker 2: from this? You know, I think in order for us
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  Speaker 2: to have that internal safety, we need to ponder, you know,
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  Speaker 2: truthfully and honestly where we're at. Hmm. That's how I
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  Speaker 2: view it.
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  Speaker 1: Now, I'm going to ask you what my– maybe it's
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: a naive question here, but why are those questions important
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  Speaker 1: for the clinician to ask themselves? Because what I'm hearing
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  Speaker 1: you saying is those are about self-awareness of the clinician.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. And you said nothing about how am I going
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  Speaker 1: to treat this client. Okay. So why are those important
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  Speaker 1: for the clinician to ask themselves and to know about themselves?
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  Speaker 2: Because when we answer those questions, you know, just truthfully
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  Speaker 2: and genuinely, we I feel, you know, I have the
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  Speaker 2: vision of the smoke coming out of, you know, clearing
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  Speaker 2: the cloud. When we, those are implicit triggers. Those are triggers.
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  Speaker 2: Those are trigger questions that when we recognize, okay, this
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  Speaker 2: is what's happening inside me. And you don't have to
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  Speaker 2: fix it right away. But that opens you up. to
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  Speaker 2: becoming genuine, truthful to your clients. So I'll give you
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  Speaker 2: an example. I have tough clients. You know, I have tough,
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  Speaker 2: challenging clients with tough, difficult stories. When I answer those
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  Speaker 2: questions truthfully, and sometimes, ow, you know, I don't know
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  Speaker 2: how to do it. The moment I say that out
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  Speaker 2: loud or the moment I process that inside me, I
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  Speaker 2: sit with them across the room and I feel lighter.
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  Speaker 2: I feel, okay, I am genuine to you and this
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  Speaker 2: is what you can expect from me. I will not
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  Speaker 2: know the answer right away, but we are here. You
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  Speaker 2: and I are here together to figure out what works
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  Speaker 2: best for you. And I am here as your co,
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  Speaker 2: you know, maybe a co-pilot and we will figure this out.
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  Speaker 2: And in fact, Guy, I can tell you when I
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  Speaker 2: am true and when I tap into those, you know,
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  Speaker 2: not only, I mean, those are just a few of
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  Speaker 2: those questions. But when I tap into my strengths, my weaknesses,
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  Speaker 2: and what I don't know, I begin to feel, you know,
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  Speaker 2: so much compassion to the people that I work with.
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  Speaker 2: And this is not like, you know, don't feel weirded out,
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  Speaker 2: but I do love them. Because what happens is it
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  Speaker 2: takes away all the mask of pretension, right? Like, okay,
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  Speaker 2: I am the expert here. I'm here. You're here. It
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: takes us here. And in fact, you know, let's say
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  Speaker 2: it's me. I'm here. I'm here to serve you.
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  Speaker 1: You're relating to them as a human being.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that is so, so important. It has nothing.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, if we're talking about complex trauma and if
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: you are really wanting to help people, you will start
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: with safety and you will start to connect with them
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  Speaker 2: as human to human. Not doing EMDR, not all these
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: wonderful approaches yet.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Not yet.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
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  Speaker 2: You are going to pedal back, you know, you are
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: going to pedal back with intention and focus on what
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: can I do to develop that card, you know, to
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  Speaker 2: really answer that cardinal question that what can I do
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  Speaker 2: as a clinician so you know, not me, you know
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  Speaker 2: that I am on your side because that's what you're needing.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. I love it. Yeah, it makes sense. How long
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: did it take you to understand the importance of this,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: of what you're saying right now?
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  Speaker 2: I'm still learning. You know, because each person is different.
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  Speaker 2: How long does it take? I think it's going to
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: take me, it will be forever. You know, it's going
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: to be hit and miss forever. And what I've learned
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  Speaker 2: from one client, I will bring that with me. I'll
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: put it in my backpack. And I will try and
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  Speaker 2: see if this works with one. And here's the thing.
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  Speaker 2: You know, they are our teachers. And I tell this
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  Speaker 2: to clients. I tell this to the clients I work with.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. We go
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: beyond the symptoms. We go beyond the reason why you're
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: coming here. Thank you for letting me know where you're at,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: where you came from, what your roots are. You are
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: my teacher. And I say it to them very genuinely
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: and truthfully.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I think you're amazing. I mean, really are. The work
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: you're doing, your approach is... is just so real and
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: genuine and refreshing. It really is, and you can feel it.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I do want to shift a little bit with respect
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: to time here, and I want to talk about the
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: work you folks are doing, this annual fundraiser ball that's
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: coming up, and share what that's about, how listeners can
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: learn more about it. So what is it?
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: So the why we do this annually is about, you know, funding,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: funding cuts, you know, budget cuts are everywhere. Medicaid is impacted.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: A lot of people are struggling. We all are. And
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: this gives us an opportunity to provide direct service to
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: continue the work with people that don't have any funding.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Two things. One is they don't have the funding to
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: continue therapy. Let's say their Medicaid gets cut off or
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: financially they cannot afford. So we would like to continue
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: the flow of therapy. And second is for those that
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: don't have any insurance. Well, that's one. And then the
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: ones that also experience emergency need for services. I do
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: believe that I do not want money to be the
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: barrier for these people. If they are willing to get services,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: like to say, I'm ready to come to therapy, help me.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: I don't want money to be the barrier for that.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: We want to continue the flow of the therapy services.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Now– and so this annual ball is actually a– you're
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: hosting a ball. This is November 14th from 6 to
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: 9 in Colorado. We'll have all the specific information. But
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: people can also, what, offer– make donations? Absolutely. Listeners, if
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: they're interested. And they can do that through what?
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: They can do through Venmo.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Okay. And we will provide the information on the Trauma
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Therapist Project, how they can reach to us. They can
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: do it by check. They can send it to the
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: trauma center. So we can do Venmo. They can do,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: you know, they can send a check to help us,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: you know, help us continue, you know, helping people here.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: And there's also a donation link on your website, too.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Okay. We'll have all that linked up at the show
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. I think why I really
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: love speaking with you, Doreen, is because you're so frigging
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: passionate about the work you do. Seriously. And you're very
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: humble and you're just so genuine. You don't come on
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: here and wear the therapist crown. As you said, you
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: get in there with the client and meet them As
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: a person, as a human being. I mean, I don't
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: think there's anything more profound than that. And it's not
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: easy to do.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: It's not. It's not for us. And, you know, I
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: always believe that, okay, what if I'm in their shoes?
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I always have that idea. What if I'm in their
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: shoes and I need someone that will make me feel seen, heard,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: and felt? you know, not giving me the theories, not
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: giving me, I will start with that. I will start to,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: you know, as a client, if I'm a client, I
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: will start to, you know, to really work hard, you know,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: to be committed to my healing because here's this person
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: that's just there genuinely. And it's not, you know, it
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: has to be felt. That's the thing. This is the
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: thing with safety and trust. You know, you can say it, right,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: with all beautiful articulation, but when the client does not
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: feel it, it's not going anywhere. So it has to
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: be felt.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: I love it. All right. How do people learn more
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: about you and the work you're doing? What's the best way?
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: They can check our work at www.chtainc.org. They can also...
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: call us at 970-397-4609. I can also share our email
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: at doreen, D-O-R-E-E-N, at chtainc.org. And you know, I'm pretty
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: sure you will highlight our resources and our contact info. Yeah.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Once again, that's the Center for Healing Trauma and Attachment.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: We'll have that linked up, all those links here linked
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: up at the show notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. Doreen,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: love speaking with you. It's your breath of fresh air
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: when you come on this podcast. I appreciate it.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: All right. We'll be in touch. Take care.