Latest / Future Christian / Season 17 Recap: Challenges, Growth, and the Future Church

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Season 17 Recap: Challenges, Growth, and the Future Church · Future Christian

• 0:06
  >> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
• 0:09
  for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
• 0:12
  21st century. At the Future Christian
• 0:14
  Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
• 0:18
  and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
• 0:20
  wisdom to help you and your community of faith
• 0:23
  walk boldly into the future. Whether
• 0:26
  you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate
• 0:29
  member of your faith community, this podcast is
• 0:32
  designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
• 0:35
  with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
• 0:42
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am,
• 0:45
  um, your co host, Martha Tatarnic and I'm so
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  happy that today I get to be with your
• 0:51
  regular host, Loren Richmond Jr. As
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  we do a little bit of a recap
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  of the past season and touch base with
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  one another. Loren, I feel like I'm in
• 1:02
  conversation with you all week because,
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  you know, you're in my earbuds as I'm
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  listening to your Future Christian
• 1:10
  episodes. Um, but it is really fun for
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  us to get some opportunity to set
• 1:16
  aside an hour or so to chat with one another,
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  so.
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  >> Loren: Absolutely.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to your own podcast, Loren.
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  >> Loren: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, anytime. Um,
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  so I, I've been
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  reviewing all of the episodes
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  from this past season,
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  and, uh, I reached out to Loren before
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  we began recording today because I just felt really
• 1:41
  compelled to get a little bit real
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  today with our listeners and just share
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  a bit with, um, with our
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  community about what the past three months have
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  been like for me. And,
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  um, you know, the reason why I want to
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  share this is not because
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  I need some woe is me time,
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  um, but because I think that there are
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  some, um, there are
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  some takeaways that I've been experiencing over the
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  past three months that have a lot to do with what we're
• 2:16
  trying to do and offer here at Future
• 2:19
  Christian. So, as, um, some of
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  our listeners might know, I
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  had, uh, this great experience of
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  being able to take September as a writing
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  Sabbath. And
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  I, um, worked really hard for the month of September. Like
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  every day I got up at 5am and I
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  worked almost nonstop until whatever
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  time of night.
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  Um, yeah, it
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  was definitely, uh, work, but it was such
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  a different kind of work from my
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  normal life because it was just this
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  pure passion project.
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  It was so focused. Right.
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  Like, so much of our, uh, work in
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  ministry is this crazy juggling act.
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  >> Loren: Yes. Jack of all trades.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Jack of all trades. Yeah. Juggling act.
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  And so I had this, like, very pure
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  experience of work for the month of
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  September. And
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  then I came back to the ministry
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  context in October and November.
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  And again, as many of our Listeners will know. And
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  you know, Loren, like, I
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  generally have had a very happy ministry and
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  I serve in a really great church
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  community. And yet
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  I kind of found myself,
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  um, teetering a little bit for the
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  past two months on the edge of depression
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  because there was just this,
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  um, like, stark
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  contrast between what
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  September had been like and then what faced
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  me when I came back in October.
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  So, you know, what faced me in October,
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  among all of the delightful things about ministry
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  were things like
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  serving a downtown church
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  where, uh,
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  like the precariousness of people's
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  lives is just getting more and more
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  extreme. Food insecurity and, and
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  lack of housing is getting more and more
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  extreme. And the winter months are coming
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  and people don't have anywhere to be, and they're sleeping
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  on our church property and they're
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  flooding our breakfast program. And
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  um, then there's just all of these
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  behaviors that go along with such precarious
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  living that, uh, we're facing every
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  day, uh, at St. George's security
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  concerns and security of our
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  guests who access those programs and our volunteers and all, all of
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  those things. So I mean, like, that's one pressure point. And
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  of course I came back to like, year end
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  and budgetary concerns and
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  um, like the
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  realities of like, the cost of living crisis
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  and inflation and
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  then how hard it is to
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  um, manage that in a church budget when all of
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  the costs are going up, but people's wallets
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  are feeling more and more pillaged.
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  >> Loren: Right.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: And then there's the pastoral realities.
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  And I came back to, you know, a few,
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  A few people in the congregation
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  who I have really,
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  um, like, looked to as
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  kind of my sources of wisdom in
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  ministry, um, suddenly
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  being in failing health.
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  And um, and
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  I'm trying to be their pastor,
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  but I'm also grieving because like,
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  it's. I feel the loss too.
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  Um, I came back to,
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  you know, just the ongoing realities
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  of serving the
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  mainline church and in the Anglican Church,
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  uh, globally. There's been kind of a
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  bunch of news stories about
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  the failures of the denomination and the
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  failures of church leadership. And you can just
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  feel that, like, anxiety all across
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  the system manifesting in some
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  very, um, difficult
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  ways as
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  systemically, you know, we try to navigate
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  decline. And then in the midst of all of that,
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  like, I also have a family and I'm a
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  mother, and I'm a mother of teenagers and
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  there's like a lot of emotional labor at home
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  as well. And um,
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  again, like, I'm not trying to say all of
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  this because I want a pity party.
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  Um, I think that these are really
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  normal pressure points
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  that like, that we face across
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  ministry. And I think why they hit me
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  so hard um, this
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  fall is because of the contrast
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  of being able to do such different kind of work
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  for 30 days. Yeah,
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  um, I've really
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  felt. And I can
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  give you a shout out here Loren,
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  um, because
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  I can say what I'm going to say without
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  sounding ah, like I'm bragging about myself.
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  Um, I have really found Future
• 7:39
  Christian this fall to be
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  a pretty important touch point for me
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  in, especially in October and November as I've
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  been like trying to come back into
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  uh, like navigating those pressure
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  points. Um, because
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  every week when I put my earbuds in
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  and listen to the conversation that you've had with
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  one of our really amazing guests,
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  what um, I find I'm
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  getting are like two things that
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  I really need in particular. And these are kind of the
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  two themes that have really stuck out to me
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  across this season. So I
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  think the first theme is one that we
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  identify a lot in our conversations which
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  is around um, clergy mental
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  health. But you've had some really
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  good um, resources
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  offered this season in that department,
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  particularly in that intersection between
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  the scientific psychological community
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  and then how that impacts how we
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  understand the stories that we're navigating,
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  the trauma that we're living with, the
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  ways that um,
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  our pressure points can get triggered in
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  unhelpful ways the narratives that we might be
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  carrying in our bodies and in our memories.
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  So um, that those
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  like new resources into that
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  conversation I have just found extremely helpful
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  because uh, not only does it
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  offer resources but it normalizes I think, a
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  lot of the
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  um, stress that we can be carrying in
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  ministry and the struggle to stay well.
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  Honestly, like it can be a struggle to stay well. So
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  that's the first theme that I just really want to call
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  out. And um, and then the
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  other theme that I really see across our
• 9:40
  guests this season is just
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  a lot of like really
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  well curated data like
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  from the ground, from people who have done
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  the research about what is actually happening
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  in our churches. And then like what we're
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  learning, like what we're learning from young people,
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  what we're learning from young people in specific
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  regions, what we're learning about
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  um, different kinds of communities across
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  our, across our Christian
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  landscape. Um,
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  and uh, for me anyway,
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  in the midst of all of the
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  swirling heartbreak and anxiety
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  that can be the mainline church, to get really
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  grounded
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  um, in information
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  about what's really happening. M.
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  And just have like really frank, honest
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  and ah,
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  um, like
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  conversation that comes with receipts you know,
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  like not just sort of
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  ideas but like we've actually done
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  the work and found out what's going
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  on. Um, that's been a real touchstone
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  for me. So all of that
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  is to say to our
• 11:00
  listeners, um, I
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  hope that if you're feeling any of those same
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  stresses that I've named, I hope that you're
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  finding this to be a, ah,
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  safe community and
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  a ah, space that gives you
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  food for the journey. Because I certainly have been
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  finding it to be that. And then I just also
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  want to say thank you Loren, because
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  um, what you've started here
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  with Future Christian is uh,
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  just so essential.
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  >> Loren: Yeah, thank you. And I certainly appreciate your
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  partnership. Thanks to listeners
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  and folks who have engaged.
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  Uh, this really has
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  become, you know, a
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  podcast really centered on, as
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  I say, an ecclesiology centered
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  podcast as I'm someone
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  who really believes in and cares about the church and
• 12:00
  especially pastors. You know,
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  having worked in that space in the past
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  and hopefully again in the future at a point in
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  official capacity and having so many
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  friends and colleagues in that space, like Martha,
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  all those things you said,
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  A, holy smokes, that's a lot to step
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  back into. And B, like
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  I know all those points, if not
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  all the many of them are
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  impacting pastors and
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  church leaders, you know, the budgets, you know,
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  the. I mean I work right now in
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  a context where you work with low uh,
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  income and that can, you know, I think it can
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  be easy to kind of romanticize that kind of ministry
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  and like, oh, we're going to help these low income folks and
• 12:49
  needy folks and then you kind of get working with them. You realize like,
• 12:52
  hey, they're, they're complicated folks and
• 12:55
  there's a lot of other stuff going on there that
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  complicates things. Mhm.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: No easy solutions.
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  Yeah, yeah,
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  yeah. Well, thank you for saying
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  that. And
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  um, yeah, I think
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  that at any given time many of
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  us are carrying around kind of a whole handful
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  of those kinds of stresses and then some. Right. Like,
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  right.
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  >> Loren: Um, I, because
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  obviously, and I'll, I'm sorry, I'll, I'll say on
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  this too, like obviously the economy has
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  been, it's debated especially here in the States
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  about how bad it is, how bad it's not.
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  But I think like inflation, like that's a data
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  point. Right. Speaking of data points, that's a receipt
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  that we can speak to. Again, the arguments to
• 13:45
  be made about whose fault it is or whatever, whatever.
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  But like that's a real thing. That is,
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  you uh, know, a real data point that is
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  Impacting. I mean, I just bought, uh, lunch day at the grocery
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  store. I'm like, how is mayonnaise 350 for mayonnaise?
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  Like, store brand mayonnaise.
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  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. And so you're
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  simultaneously dealing with,
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  like, we're dealing with, you know, a 3%,
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  um, rise in all of our salaries at, um, the
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  church. But at the same time, we're
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  asking our congregation to give
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  more money that they don't have because of that
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  same, like, problem. Right.
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  So just, uh, it
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  can, can really take you in a
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  mind spiral for sure.
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  So, um, as I've,
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  as I've been gratefully
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  leaning, uh, into the future Christian,
• 14:43
  um, this season,
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  not as the host primarily,
• 14:49
  um, but just as one of the
• 14:51
  listeners, um, we
• 14:54
  have celebrated a pretty important
• 14:56
  milestone. And so as we do this
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  recap, um, today, I really
• 15:02
  thought, starting with that milestone,
• 15:05
  um, that milestone episode
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  was important to
• 15:10
  call out in a celebratory way,
• 15:13
  which is that 200
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  episodes ago, Loren, you
• 15:19
  were, um, just launching this whole
• 15:22
  thing. And, uh,
• 15:24
  you were a person with an idea
• 15:27
  and a dream about,
• 15:30
  um, what a podcast space
• 15:33
  could look like and what kinds of needs it
• 15:36
  could be addressing. And, you know,
• 15:39
  200 episodes later, here we are. And,
• 15:42
  uh, and I really believe that,
• 15:44
  um, that we're
• 15:47
  offering something really important
• 15:50
  into the landscape of
• 15:52
  church leadership. But I
• 15:55
  wasn't part of starting it
• 15:58
  up 200 episodes ago. I was.
• 16:01
  I'm a late arrival. Um,
• 16:03
  and I'd like to just
• 16:06
  ask you again,
• 16:09
  what was the initial spark
• 16:12
  that got you into this?
• 16:15
  >> Loren: I mean, it was like many things, a Covid
• 16:17
  project of feeling like, I mean, part of good.
• 16:20
  Right. There was certainly this pressure on Covid to
• 16:23
  produce more, even though there was
• 16:26
  a crisis happening. So I think that was part of it.
• 16:30
  And it was also, I think for me, like, if
• 16:33
  this has not been obvious to folks,
• 16:36
  I'm an enneagram5, so I love taking
• 16:38
  information in. And
• 16:41
  part of being healthy. Enneagram5 is sharing
• 16:44
  information out there. So leaning into becoming an
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  eight, um, and you know, this podcast is one
• 16:50
  of the ways that I get to do that. I think also,
• 16:54
  like, a dream job for me would be a
• 16:58
  academic, like a professor. Like, that ship has
• 17:01
  probably sailed, at least
• 17:05
  in the near future. That's not going to happen
• 17:07
  realistically. But I'm in a space where,
• 17:11
  I mean, I get to talk to again to name some
• 17:13
  of our guests, like Dr. Elesha
• 17:16
  Coffman and Dr. Uh,
• 17:19
  Kristina Lazard Hashby. And,
• 17:22
  you know, these, these like, wonky seminary
• 17:25
  or seminary and academic
• 17:27
  professors. Like, I get to have conversations with them, which,
• 17:30
  you know, before podcasting existed would not. I don't
• 17:33
  think it'd been a possibility. Like, I get some measure of being in
• 17:36
  that kind of academic, nerdy space without
• 17:39
  having a title or done, you know,
• 17:41
  PhD doctoral work. So I think that's
• 17:44
  really exciting for me. Um, and again,
• 17:47
  like, obviously, like, we've. We've talked
• 17:50
  about, like, this is stuff that we think and I
• 17:53
  think is helpful. Um, so it's
• 17:56
  like, I get to try to be helpful and also be a little
• 17:58
  visionary, I think, as I try to think, like,
• 18:01
  where do I at least think
• 18:04
  church might be going? Where do I think leaders might be
• 18:07
  struggling with? You know, how can that be helpful to them? And
• 18:09
  then I'll just say this. Like, I just said this to someone this morning.
• 18:12
  Like, podcasting is a lot of work. I don't know if
• 18:15
  folks really understand how much work it is. And
• 18:18
  I sort of, like, about every month or two, I'm just like, oh, can I just.
• 18:21
  I should just quit.
• 18:25
  It's just like, so much work. And I'm just like, oh, do I
• 18:28
  really want to do this? And then, like, you know, I read a good book,
• 18:31
  like your forthcoming, uh, guest, uh,
• 18:33
  Jesse Zink. Right. Who Martha will have
• 18:36
  on, and I'm just like, you know, I got
• 18:39
  a. I got a new stack of books here that I'm looking forward to read and
• 18:42
  going to reach out to some more contacts for
• 18:45
  conversations, and that really keeps, uh, me
• 18:48
  going.
• 18:49
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Yeah, I can
• 18:51
  appreciate all of those things. Um,
• 18:54
  you do say all the time that. That you're a church nerd,
• 18:57
  so, yeah, it does seem
• 19:00
  like a good space for that. And you're
• 19:02
  right. Um, the labor behind the
• 19:05
  scenes is, I think, way more
• 19:08
  than I thought.
• 19:10
  As somebody who
• 19:13
  voraciously listens to podcasts,
• 19:16
  I didn't quite, uh, understand how much work
• 19:19
  goes into producing
• 19:21
  podcasts. Um, how has
• 19:24
  it evolved over the past couple of
• 19:27
  years, the past 200 episodes?
• 19:29
  >> Loren: I mean, I think what comes to mind first,
• 19:32
  just, like, I've somehow sustain this for, like, four
• 19:35
  different jobs. It's probably
• 19:38
  the most realistic challenge. And
• 19:41
  hopefully, hopefully there'll be
• 19:44
  a fifth job that I'll sustain this through, or maybe
• 19:46
  even sixth, who knows? Um, I think that's
• 19:49
  just like, the most obviously, technology
• 19:52
  and resources, like
• 19:55
  having you come on board, having.
• 19:57
  Um, our
• 20:01
  production guy right now is Alex Lang, Alexander Lang,
• 20:04
  who Martha has had in a guest, and again, we'll
• 20:07
  be having on again in a future
• 20:10
  episode here shortly. So there's been
• 20:13
  different people to kind of do the, some of the editing work,
• 20:16
  which again helps just kind of manage the
• 20:18
  overall labor. Um, I've
• 20:21
  been fortunate to, for the podcast, receive some support
• 20:24
  from Phillips Seminary, my alma mater. So shout
• 20:27
  out to Philip Seminary and thank you for your support there.
• 20:30
  And, uh, really just been. I mean, it really is a labor
• 20:33
  of love, though. Um, it's. It's sort
• 20:36
  of. It sort of is mind boggling to think 200
• 20:39
  episodes because it's, it's a good bit of
• 20:42
  work and conversations and I'm. I'm grateful. I've
• 20:45
  had so many conversations with so many really
• 20:48
  interesting people.
• 20:49
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Are there any that, uh, that stick
• 20:52
  out particularly that you'd want
• 20:54
  to just raise as like kind of dream
• 20:58
  conversations for you?
• 21:01
  >> Loren: I mean, I think one that always comes to
• 21:04
  mind immediately is. And it's funny, when I was at theology beer
• 21:07
  camp like a month or two ago, like, I, uh, was
• 21:10
  sitting, getting ready for like the start of the
• 21:12
  opening session and like, literally, who sits right next to
• 21:15
  me is Brian McLaren. Yeah,
• 21:19
  he's, you know, certainly there's been a.
• 21:22
  There's a lot of. All these folks have been very generous
• 21:25
  in kind with their time. You know,
• 21:28
  Brian always strikes me as someone who's very humble, very
• 21:31
  generous, very kind, and I've really appreciate
• 21:33
  that. Um, you know,
• 21:36
  even beyond him though, certainly,
• 21:39
  you know, the nerdy conversations are the ones
• 21:42
  that I tend to appreciate the most. I think,
• 21:44
  um, you know, I think of again,
• 21:47
  Dr. Elesha Coffman. You know, I've
• 21:50
  really try to lean into when
• 21:53
  the opportunity arises to do in person
• 21:55
  interviews. So, you know,
• 21:58
  I've tried to do some like again, with Dr. Kristina
• 22:01
  Lazardi Hashby, who's in my neck of
• 22:04
  the woods. Megan Basel, who. We are kind of in the same
• 22:07
  neck of the woods. So those have been really a lot of fun. Is
• 22:10
  when opportunity arises to do something in person.
• 22:13
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't had that opportunity
• 22:16
  yet, but, uh, it no doubt changes
• 22:19
  the dynamic.
• 22:20
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 22:21
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Quite significantly. Yeah. Well,
• 22:23
  okay, so if people are looking for some
• 22:26
  back catalog to go to, they should check
• 22:29
  out, uh, a few of those people. Brian
• 22:32
  McLaren, Megan,
• 22:35
  Kristina.
• 22:35
  >> Loren: I'm going. Well, I have to look now and figure out what.
• 22:41
  Yeah, I mean, I think it's.
• 22:45
  I mean, I. It's like, it's like your children, like you love them all for
• 22:48
  different reasons.
• 22:50
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's right.
• 22:53
  >> Loren: I mean, like, but again, like, this was
• 22:55
  obviously not mine, but like, you know, year two
• 22:58
  with, um. Who is it?
• 23:01
  Elizabeth. Dr. Elizabeth Schrader.
• 23:03
  >> Martha Tatarnic: P. Yeah,
• 23:06
  um, Schrader. Polczer
• 23:08
  >> Loren: Pulitzer, yeah. Like, again,
• 23:11
  uh, really interesting stuff and
• 23:14
  really, I think, uh, beneficial to the
• 23:17
  podcast.
• 23:18
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that re. Uh, look at,
• 23:21
  um, Gospel of John and Mary Magdalene.
• 23:24
  Um, she was definitely one of my
• 23:27
  heroes that I got to interview. So, you know,
• 23:30
  there's some moments where we get to be
• 23:32
  really starstruck in this, ah, chair as
• 23:35
  host.
• 23:37
  >> Loren: And I wanted to like, even highlight some of the
• 23:39
  episodes from the summer too, of, you know, Allison
• 23:42
  Milbank I thought was a great guest. Jason
• 23:45
  Byassee obviously we
• 23:47
  mentioned, um,
• 23:50
  Elizabeth. Rob Hurkmans I thought was an interesting
• 23:52
  episode. So, you know,
• 23:55
  Martha and I are really fortunate to talk to some great folks
• 23:59
  and I'm, I'm enjoying
• 24:01
  it.
• 24:02
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Well, encourage
• 24:05
  our listeners to re. Listen or go
• 24:08
  and listen for the first time to some of those
• 24:11
  previous, uh, episodes because,
• 24:14
  you know, I think that they
• 24:19
  continue to be timely. Right. Like,
• 24:21
  we're in sort of a long conversation about
• 24:24
  the future of the church. So if you go back a couple of years,
• 24:27
  I don't think you're going to
• 24:30
  listen, um, to stuff that sounds wildly out of date.
• 24:33
  >> Loren: Right.
• 24:35
  >> Martha Tatarnic: So, um, for the 200th
• 24:37
  episode, I think it was really fitting
• 24:40
  a. That we got to be part
• 24:43
  of that episode together.
• 24:45
  >> Loren: Yes.
• 24:45
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, we got to do a panel
• 24:48
  discussion and I think that the
• 24:50
  topic was really,
• 24:52
  um, on point because it was
• 24:55
  around clergy health. And, you know, I've already said
• 24:58
  it in this conversation, we say it
• 25:01
  a lot. But there's just
• 25:04
  a big component of how the
• 25:07
  conversations that we're having, um,
• 25:10
  circle back to this.
• 25:13
  So, um, so why
• 25:16
  don't we just recap a little
• 25:18
  bit of. Of that
• 25:22
  milestone, uh, episode, Loren, and
• 25:25
  you have a few clips, don't you, of that
• 25:27
  episode.
• 25:28
  >> Loren: So I'm glad again you kind of made this point.
• 25:31
  But I'll reinforce that. I think the roundtable
• 25:34
  episode is. I think some of the ones that Martha and I
• 25:38
  think I can speak for you on this behalf have really enjoyed
• 25:41
  doing just to bring in different
• 25:43
  perspectives, and I think this
• 25:46
  was a really good one. So again, to tutor on horn
• 25:49
  here. Go back and listen if you haven't already. You, uh,
• 25:52
  know, I, I was,
• 25:55
  um, intentional about bringing in Brian, who
• 25:58
  comes from an evangelical background,
• 26:01
  although that's kind of not true because I, I talked to him recently and
• 26:04
  his. He grew up in an ABC American
• 26:07
  Baptist church, which is technically a mainline church.
• 26:10
  He certainly serves in the evangelical context
• 26:13
  right now, but again, sort of has, uh,
• 26:16
  some mainline elements to him. Um, and then of course
• 26:18
  Kinsie, who primarily comes from a mainline
• 26:21
  background, and of course both of us,
• 26:24
  um, so really? Again, you,
• 26:27
  Martha, will tease. This has an episode coming
• 26:30
  out with Mike Casper, who, again, definitely an
• 26:32
  evangelical voice. We really try to be intentional
• 26:35
  about bringing in different voices
• 26:38
  to bring different perspectives. And this is one of the things that I
• 26:41
  really appreciate about, uh, that episode. But
• 26:44
  let's do soothing. I can find it
• 26:47
  here. Let's play some of this clip from
• 26:49
  Kenzie Tate, because I think. Or let's
• 26:52
  do. Let's do with this one. And then,
• 26:55
  um, assuming
• 26:58
  I can make this happen.
• 26:59
  >> Kinsie Tate: So we. We constantly kind of compare so that we can make sure that we
• 27:02
  fit in and we belong. I mean, ultimately, it's about
• 27:04
  belonging, that comparison. But when it
• 27:07
  goes off course is when we feel
• 27:10
  like I don't belong, like
• 27:13
  what I'm doing isn't good enough. But, you know,
• 27:16
  when we're in that stress response, um, and I feel like I'm
• 27:19
  not producing. Is this about patriarchy? And I need to be
• 27:22
  a certain way to be considered, like, powerful.
• 27:25
  Is this about, um, I'm just
• 27:28
  tired, and when I'm tired, I feel like I don't
• 27:31
  do a good job. So it's. There's. It's so
• 27:33
  complex. Um, and I think that's why
• 27:36
  these conversations are important. And this is what I would really love for
• 27:39
  clergy gatherings to be. You know, like,
• 27:42
  we could talk about these things and really have some insight
• 27:44
  and feel those emotions well up and have
• 27:47
  a safe space to talk about it and maybe
• 27:50
  hear from, you know, like, you heard from Martha. It's like, I'd never
• 27:53
  thought about it that way. Like, that's so helpful. Gives
• 27:56
  me a new level of insight to kind of integrate what it is that
• 27:59
  I'm feeling so it doesn't come out sideways.
• 28:03
  >> Loren: I. Kenzie, uh, again, shout out. Kenzie, you better be
• 28:06
  listening here. You know, I really appreciate her work.
• 28:08
  Obviously ordained herself married to a
• 28:11
  pastor. Um, pretty helpful for me.
• 28:14
  So much good stuff there. What strikes you there?
• 28:17
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I am struck
• 28:19
  by just the perennial
• 28:22
  problem of how
• 28:25
  badly we do as clergy when we
• 28:28
  gather together. Like, we
• 28:30
  don't. We're not good at all about
• 28:33
  making safe spaces. Like,
• 28:36
  uh, unless your context is, like, wildly different
• 28:39
  from mine, I don't think so. Yeah, like,
• 28:42
  we just,
• 28:44
  um. We just, like,
• 28:47
  so easily
• 28:49
  fall into the, like, bitch and
• 28:52
  brag categories.
• 28:54
  >> Loren: And I, uh, Like, forgive me for cutting you off, but
• 28:57
  I feel like you can also turn into this, like,
• 29:01
  too much positive spinning or
• 29:04
  shining the turd. It's like. It's like.
• 29:07
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, this false bravado.
• 29:09
  >> Loren: Well, it's like it's almost like, you know, to use
• 29:11
  a topic you've brought up, like oh, the budget. We're
• 29:14
  in budget crisis but we're gonna celebrate God's provision
• 29:17
  and God's abundance.
• 29:20
  It's like can something just suck? Can we just, you
• 29:23
  know, uh, folks who, if you're not aware,
• 29:26
  check out Martha's book. Because I, I do think about this
• 29:29
  a lot. Martha, your point about ultrarealism. I don't know
• 29:32
  if you want to explain that briefly.
• 29:34
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Ah, so ultrarealism is a
• 29:37
  term that I got um, from
• 29:40
  endurance running. But it's
• 29:43
  like a mental
• 29:45
  strategy of uh,
• 29:48
  pulling yourself away from our
• 29:50
  tendencies of wishing that things were
• 29:53
  different or worrying about what is going to come next and
• 29:56
  actually get real about what's actually
• 29:59
  happening. So um, like
• 30:02
  name it and accept it and
• 30:05
  embrace it. Um, but,
• 30:08
  but like you've got to get to the it. Like
• 30:11
  what's happening. None of this
• 30:14
  sort of, yeah,
• 30:17
  making um, things sound better than they
• 30:20
  are or feeling like you,
• 30:22
  you can't just say that things suck,
• 30:26
  um, you know, like what's
• 30:29
  happening and then what are we going to do about it?
• 30:31
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 30:31
  >> Martha Tatarnic: And to me
• 30:34
  that's um, that's a much more
• 30:36
  hopeful place than what
• 30:39
  we sometimes do in clergy gatherings.
• 30:43
  >> Loren: So um, let me, let me play this clip from Brian
• 30:46
  about and I want you to be thinking
• 30:49
  about what does this look like? What's the equivalent in
• 30:51
  like a mainline space? Let me play this and
• 30:54
  you be thinking about that.
• 30:56
  >> Brian Davis: I still hear it every once in a while but you know.
• 31:01
  >> Brian Davis: It really.
• 31:02
  >> Brian Davis: Started to rise up kind of the mid um, early
• 31:04
  2000s where it was like, you know, you'd be
• 31:07
  in your pre service meeting or whatever
• 31:11
  and someone, usually the lead pastor would say
• 31:13
  something like okay everybody, like this may
• 31:16
  be our one chance
• 31:19
  ever speak the truth of the gospel to the people that
• 31:22
  are sitting in these seats. So don't blow it.
• 31:25
  >> Brian Davis: Like.
• 31:27
  >> Brian Davis: How much pressure are you ah, putting on
• 31:30
  ourselves? I
• 31:33
  mean that just pardon my language but that just
• 31:36
  reeked of to me from the beginning. Like
• 31:39
  this is not the fact that
• 31:42
  someone's personal salvation is entirely up to me and
• 31:45
  how I perform from the stage.
• 31:47
  I had to reject that right away. But there are so many who
• 31:50
  haven't and still put all that pressure on
• 31:53
  themselves. Um, to.
• 31:56
  >> Loren: Yeah. What do you think that looks like in mainline
• 31:59
  context, I wonder?
• 32:01
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, um, I mean my mind
• 32:04
  just initially goes to
• 32:07
  our annual data reporting
• 32:11
  and like maybe that's not
• 32:15
  like uh. I'm sure it's not the only comparison.
• 32:17
  But in our uh. So in our context
• 32:20
  anyway, they're called vestry reports. And like
• 32:23
  you have to run the data
• 32:26
  from the year, like average number
• 32:29
  of attendees and how many households you have.
• 32:32
  And then there's like financial information and all of it
• 32:35
  has to be like sent into the diocese
• 32:38
  and, and then like the information that you
• 32:41
  send in, um, on
• 32:44
  a just like very
• 32:47
  concrete way, it depends like
• 32:50
  that affects your representation then in synods
• 32:53
  and stuff like that. But just
• 32:56
  I think the knots that
• 32:59
  um, in the past I have like
• 33:02
  gotten tied up in just.
• 33:04
  Okay, did, did our annual or
• 33:07
  did our average attendance go up this year or did it go down this
• 33:10
  year? And like by how much did it go up? And,
• 33:13
  and, and if it didn't go up then
• 33:15
  like why didn't it go up? And, and
• 33:18
  if it did go up then okay, maybe like
• 33:21
  maybe we're doing something right and ah, like
• 33:24
  just kind of all of that
• 33:27
  um, pressure that we get
• 33:30
  like downloaded onto
• 33:34
  um, these numbers as if they tell
• 33:37
  us something about
• 33:39
  like whether or not we're
• 33:42
  doing good ministry.
• 33:44
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 33:46
  >> Martha Tatarnic: I don't know. Like, do you kind of have a
• 33:49
  parallel?
• 33:51
  >> Loren: I mean I think as I listen
• 33:54
  to this, I think,
• 33:57
  I think again this is getting philosophical. I think
• 34:00
  this is the other side of the
• 34:03
  coin of this. To use the Charles
• 34:06
  Taylor stuff that Andy Root writes about of the secular age
• 34:09
  where there's this, just this pressure on
• 34:12
  humans because we don't really believe that
• 34:14
  are in a God who can, you
• 34:17
  know, move and act in a world that it's on us.
• 34:20
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 34:21
  >> Loren: Uh, like, like Brian is saying, like the pressure
• 34:24
  is like we've got to make this service so good
• 34:26
  that it's compelling the people rather than trusting that the
• 34:29
  Holy Spirit will move in people. And I think in mainline
• 34:32
  progressive spaces it's like we've got to be
• 34:35
  so activist and
• 34:37
  you know, social justice because we can't
• 34:40
  really trust that God is moving in
• 34:44
  our communities.
• 34:46
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:49
  I think that's ah, an astute observation
• 34:52
  too for sure.
• 34:55
  I think like right across the
• 34:57
  board, um,
• 35:01
  I think all of us can relate to that,
• 35:04
  uh, messiah complex, I would say. Enlarge.
• 35:07
  I have.
• 35:08
  >> Loren: Sorry.
• 35:09
  >> Martha Tatarnic: That's okay. That messiah complex. Right. Like
• 35:12
  we can just um, think that
• 35:15
  it's up to us to save things.
• 35:18
  >> Loren: Well here, maybe let's play this clip here. That
• 35:21
  actually started too soon because it's.
• 35:24
  You talk about the benefits of team
• 35:28
  ministry.
• 35:31
  >> Martha Tatarnic: I would say in large, I have
• 35:34
  enjoyed a happy ministry. You know,
• 35:36
  it hasn't always been easy and
• 35:39
  I have had times of struggle. But by and large like
• 35:42
  two decades of ministry have been
• 35:45
  happy. And
• 35:48
  the major thing that I credit to
• 35:51
  that is that I have always worked
• 35:54
  in a team. So I have
• 35:56
  never felt like I
• 35:59
  have to be the Jack of all trades. And I've
• 36:02
  never felt particularly
• 36:05
  lonely in ministry, which I think is,
• 36:08
  you know, quite different from a lot of people's
• 36:11
  experience. So I think that there is something
• 36:13
  systemically that we could do with that
• 36:16
  observation. And, and I think that the more that
• 36:19
  we can think about how
• 36:22
  we create teams of ministry, and
• 36:25
  I don't mean just ordained
• 36:27
  leaders, um, but you know,
• 36:30
  teams of people whose
• 36:33
  gifts complement one another and
• 36:35
  who are, you know, deployed, uh,
• 36:39
  equipped, resourced to be
• 36:42
  able to share those gifts, to build
• 36:45
  up the body of Christ in the place
• 36:48
  where they're called. I think that really could be
• 36:51
  a game changer.
• 36:53
  >> Loren: For context, I did edit
• 36:56
  that, even that clip for social media's
• 36:59
  sake. So if you want to hear Martha does speak
• 37:02
  about like some systemic ideas again,
• 37:05
  listen to episode 200. Um, I
• 37:08
  also want to hear Martha because I was just talking about this with one of
• 37:10
  my friends
• 37:13
  because you know, he has kind of wisely
• 37:16
  advised me like hey, the next
• 37:19
  ministry job, like it can't just be all you,
• 37:21
  like you, you just can't do it. I was like, well how does that
• 37:24
  work with the fact that so many
• 37:27
  churches can barely afford like one full time
• 37:30
  person? And you kind of uh, you kind
• 37:33
  of hint at it there about non clergy
• 37:35
  type teams. And that's you know, one of the things he suggested too.
• 37:38
  But like, let's talk about that for a minute. Like what do you think
• 37:41
  about other. Because I'm um, I would
• 37:44
  need someone who like again
• 37:47
  I'm an introvert and
• 37:50
  let uh, me defend introverts. Like we're not antisocial, we just
• 37:53
  need to guard our social energy.
• 37:55
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yep.
• 37:55
  >> Loren: You know, so like I can't just be up front
• 37:59
  247 talking to people. So I would probably need someone who can
• 38:02
  run some kind of interference.
• 38:05
  What else do you think, Martha?
• 38:08
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean I, first of
• 38:11
  all, like I do think that
• 38:15
  probably, and I have no crystal ball here,
• 38:17
  but I would imagine that
• 38:21
  in a lot of our denominations a sustainable
• 38:23
  future is going to look like some ministry
• 38:26
  centers out of which, um,
• 38:29
  you know, smaller kind of
• 38:33
  ministry, um, groupings
• 38:36
  happen that aren't necessarily in church buildings. So.
• 38:39
  >> Loren: Right.
• 38:39
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, so I do think
• 38:42
  that there's got to be
• 38:45
  um, a pretty big
• 38:49
  upside to that in terms of
• 38:52
  building those teams. Right. That I was talking
• 38:54
  about. Um, and
• 38:57
  yeah, like I, I think
• 39:00
  I, my My
• 39:04
  partner in crime here at St. George's Tom,
• 39:07
  is an extrovert and I'm quite
• 39:10
  introverted. And um, and that
• 39:13
  is a nice interplay.
• 39:15
  And um, there are
• 39:18
  like parts of ministry that I
• 39:21
  just like love and get really
• 39:24
  fed by like communications
• 39:26
  and um,
• 39:30
  understanding the finances. I know that's not
• 39:33
  what everybody would say, right?
• 39:35
  >> Loren: Seems counterintuitive, but yeah.
• 39:37
  >> Martha Tatarnic: And uh, like
• 39:40
  he has other areas that like just
• 39:43
  set him on fire. And
• 39:46
  then like I would say that
• 39:48
  there's stuff that neither one of us is that
• 39:51
  good at, like property management. And
• 39:54
  thankfully, like we have really good
• 39:56
  people in our congregation who
• 39:59
  are like excited by that file.
• 40:02
  So um,
• 40:05
  yeah, I think that uh,
• 40:08
  like we all have to do a certain amount of ministry that drains
• 40:11
  us. Right. But. But if you get to offset that
• 40:14
  with some parts that just really
• 40:16
  like top up your tank, like.
• 40:19
  >> Loren: Mhm.
• 40:20
  >> Martha Tatarnic: It. It's great.
• 40:23
  >> Loren: Yeah, that's.
• 40:24
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Sorry, go ahead.
• 40:25
  >> Loren: No, I was just thinking like that's so true. Like
• 40:28
  any job is gonna have just suck factors
• 40:31
  and trying to find a balance there. And I'm
• 40:34
  like, I'm thinking about a couple
• 40:37
  things I've heard about and ideas that
• 40:40
  I've had related to that is, you know, like
• 40:43
  the senior leader, the elite,
• 40:45
  whatever title. If it's a
• 40:48
  solo pastoral staff, like
• 40:51
  I'm thinking this is hard because again,
• 40:54
  costs and financial challenges be what they are. But
• 40:57
  there might be a situation where like
• 41:00
  if caught or if contexts
• 41:03
  are what they may, you may need to take a
• 41:06
  pay cut and then just hire someone to be.
• 41:09
  Because like I'm telling you right now, if I was
• 41:12
  working on a solo staff team, like I'd almost want to
• 41:14
  just take a pay cut and hire someone, even if
• 41:17
  it's part time, who could kind of be
• 41:20
  that kind of like run interference for me. Be
• 41:23
  like the extrovert.
• 41:25
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
• 41:25
  >> Loren: M. Because I just, I can't be extroverted all the time. Like
• 41:28
  I really enjoy it in context. Like I
• 41:31
  really enjoy people, but I just find myself at the end of the day just like out
• 41:34
  of gas.
• 41:35
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.
• 41:37
  Um, in the, in
• 41:40
  St. George's and in the last couple places
• 41:43
  I've served, part of our teams have been
• 41:46
  complemented by retired clergy
• 41:49
  who, you know, are now drawing a
• 41:51
  pension and um,
• 41:54
  don't want the like day in, day out
• 41:57
  responsibilities, but still really want to
• 42:00
  serve and contribute and have a lot of
• 42:03
  awesome gifts to offer.
• 42:06
  And that's a really neat way in which smaller
• 42:08
  parishes, um,
• 42:11
  can be resourced too because it
• 42:14
  can be a real win win.
• 42:17
  Um, when People
• 42:20
  who have served in ministry get to
• 42:22
  serve in ministry in a bit of a
• 42:25
  different way without the.
• 42:28
  The big pressures kind of all the
• 42:31
  time. Um, but then
• 42:34
  it. Yeah, it fills out that. That team
• 42:37
  again, so that you're not just doing everything.
• 42:40
  >> Loren: And that's good, because what's the
• 42:43
  saying, right. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
• 42:46
  Like, I'm, um, being very disparaging of retired clergy,
• 42:48
  but. No, you know,
• 42:51
  perhaps this is unfair, but so many stories I hear
• 42:54
  of retired clergy incarnation behaving
• 42:57
  badly. So this is, I suppose, a good way to keep them.
• 43:00
  Keep them close, keep them on and on.
• 43:03
  Your. Under your thumb. That's not the right word. But, you know, keep
• 43:06
  tabs on them.
• 43:07
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I have. I've been very
• 43:10
  lucky in only having amazing
• 43:13
  retired clergy in my congregations, but
• 43:16
  I have heard some stories as well. Yeah, there are
• 43:19
  some stories out there. Um, I just
• 43:22
  wanted to say one other thing about that clip,
• 43:24
  because the other
• 43:27
  piece that I was really thinking as we were listening to
• 43:30
  it is that it does come back to what
• 43:33
  we're sort of celebrating today, which
• 43:36
  is future Christian and,
• 43:39
  um, 200 episodes in
• 43:42
  and what you've been able to create
• 43:45
  here. Because I do think that,
• 43:47
  um, this can be part
• 43:50
  of how
• 43:53
  clergy, uh, who are on the front lines, who are
• 43:55
  in challenging ministry contexts,
• 43:58
  who do sometimes feel alone, who do sometimes
• 44:01
  feel under resourced, who do sometimes feel
• 44:04
  like, um, they have to do it all
• 44:07
  that, like, this can be
• 44:10
  a community that,
• 44:12
  um,
• 44:14
  that helps to
• 44:17
  resource and companion people in
• 44:20
  ministry.
• 44:20
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 44:23
  Yeah.
• 44:28
  >> Martha Tatarnic: So do you want to touch base
• 44:30
  about a few other standout episodes
• 44:33
  from this season, Loren?
• 44:35
  >> Loren: Yeah, why don't we do that? As I'm kind of looking through the
• 44:38
  clips I have and let
• 44:41
  me play. I can remember which one is which here.
• 44:45
  Um, for
• 44:48
  folks, go back and listen to the
• 44:50
  episode with Chuck DeGroat. Um, one
• 44:53
  of the things. I've been fortunate to have
• 44:56
  a couple conversations with Chuck. Um, and I think one of
• 44:59
  the things that I really appreciate about him
• 45:02
  was a.
• 45:05
  He really seemed to care about and understand pastors.
• 45:08
  Um, but two, I think the way he
• 45:11
  approaches this, I really
• 45:14
  feel like, is a good,
• 45:16
  um, approach. I'm trying to get
• 45:19
  this clip to play. Let me see here.
• 45:23
  You write that while some might contend that our core problem as
• 45:26
  humans is that we think too highly of ourselves,
• 45:29
  you say. I'd argue that most of us live with an
• 45:32
  underlying sense of worthlessness, alienation,
• 45:34
  and disillusionment. I mean, again,
• 45:37
  as someone who grew up very conservative Christian,
• 45:40
  that quote is Shocking, almost.
• 45:42
  >> Brian Davis: Yeah, yeah. And what we know
• 45:45
  is that there are certainly people who think too highly of
• 45:48
  themselves, but underneath that inevitably is shame.
• 45:51
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 45:52
  >> Brian Davis: And we see this play out. You know, this is sort of
• 45:55
  a psychological truism. I think it's a biblical one
• 45:58
  too. There are a number of people now who
• 46:00
  are saying even before Adam and Eve grasped for the
• 46:03
  fruit, which you know, is sometimes theologized
• 46:06
  as some sort of arrogant decision, you know, Adam and
• 46:09
  Eve's pride, what they're wrestling with
• 46:12
  are these questions that are raised by the
• 46:15
  serpent. They're being gaslit by the way they're
• 46:18
  being abused, you know, by the serpent
• 46:21
  who is raising questions that send
• 46:23
  them spiraling, like maybe we're not enough. Maybe
• 46:26
  we're missing something which I call shame.
• 46:29
  And so shame proceeds even the grasping of the fruit.
• 46:32
  And so I think for, for all of us. And
• 46:35
  you know, I've done some significant work on narcissism.
• 46:38
  You know, the way we understand that psychologically is that you're not
• 46:41
  born with narcissism. You don't wake up one day and choose to
• 46:44
  become a narcissist. It's born out of a way
• 46:47
  of coping. I'm going to become
• 46:49
  grandiose. I become the bully because I
• 46:52
  experienced abuse or I was bullied, or I was small, or I was
• 46:55
  made to feel ashamed. And I never ever want to feel
• 46:58
  that again.
• 47:01
  >> Loren: Obviously Chuck has some great insights there
• 47:04
  and I think his insights on Genesis 3 really
• 47:06
  were quite revolutionary for me.
• 47:10
  Uh, I'm wondering, how did
• 47:13
  that strike you? How does that episode strike you? Because I know for me it
• 47:16
  was just really life giving to think about
• 47:19
  that in a different context. To think,
• 47:22
  you know, it's a way of like
• 47:25
  reframing it where it's like, you know, I,
• 47:30
  you know, in, in my tradition, disciples, Christ,
• 47:33
  the term brokenness is used a lot, which I think
• 47:36
  really resonates with and I might have mentioned
• 47:39
  it in that episode. What really resonates with, I think what Chuck is trying to
• 47:42
  say, or at least as I understand it, what, what comes to mind for you?
• 47:46
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, um, I
• 47:49
  reached out to you about that episode because I found
• 47:51
  it quite powerful in a lot of different
• 47:54
  ways. Again, I just like really appreciate that
• 47:57
  intersection between the,
• 48:00
  the um, like scientific research and then
• 48:03
  the ministry context. I didn't grow
• 48:06
  up in a sin heavy tradition at
• 48:09
  all. Like, that was not, um,
• 48:11
  that kind of like overbearing, judgmental
• 48:14
  God is not the God that I grew up
• 48:17
  with. Um, but what I found,
• 48:20
  what I found really powerful about that particular
• 48:23
  Clip. Um, this. This
• 48:26
  idea that, like, our
• 48:29
  primary problem is not thinking too highly of
• 48:31
  ourselves. Our primary problem is shame.
• 48:36
  I, um, found it really helpful just in terms of
• 48:38
  how I look differently
• 48:41
  at people that I perceive to be
• 48:44
  difficult personalities. You know,
• 48:47
  like, um, when I
• 48:49
  get frustrated by. By what
• 48:52
  I perceive as someone's arrogance or
• 48:55
  narcissism, um, um, to be able
• 48:58
  to take a step back and wonder, okay, like,
• 49:00
  what's the. What's the hurt beneath
• 49:03
  this? Like, what is the.
• 49:06
  What's the wound
• 49:09
  underneath here? You had
• 49:12
  another.
• 49:12
  >> Loren: Sorry, go ahead.
• 49:13
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, you had.
• 49:17
  Go ahead.
• 49:18
  >> Loren: No, I was just gonna say. Let me say briefly, it really goes back to what Kinsie said about
• 49:21
  kind of being aware of your own stuff so you can be
• 49:24
  in a space to care for others.
• 49:26
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I think so. There was
• 49:29
  another one of your guests this season who I
• 49:32
  believe also talked about Genesis 3. Right.
• 49:36
  Um, and they had like, this
• 49:39
  redefinition of
• 49:41
  sin. Do you remember who was it?
• 49:44
  Yolanda Solomon.
• 49:45
  >> Loren: It could have been. It could have been.
• 49:48
  Because,
• 49:49
  uh. Yeah, because
• 49:53
  I tied. I don't have a clip from.
• 49:56
  I think it's. Yeah, I think she said it.
• 49:58
  Yolanda. Hopefully I'm getting that right.
• 50:01
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Uh, yeah, I think so.
• 50:03
  >> Loren: Um, I don't have a clip from her episode, but I think I
• 50:06
  immediately typed when I talked to her to Chuck's
• 50:08
  book. I had not yet interviewed Chuck because she
• 50:11
  also says in her thing, like
• 50:14
  one of the key questions she
• 50:17
  reads from Scripture is God
• 50:20
  saying, where are you? And that's similarly
• 50:23
  what Chuck wrote about in his book, which I thought was a
• 50:25
  great, really powerful connection. And again, kind
• 50:28
  of re. Reframes,
• 50:31
  uh, in such a powerful way that Genesis 3 story of.
• 50:34
  Rather than, as I heard it, kind of this guilt and
• 50:37
  shaming, like, where are you?
• 50:39
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, like the finger wagging God,
• 50:42
  like, stomping around Eden, like,
• 50:45
  where are you?
• 50:47
  >> Loren: And I think fits with like, the story of, like,
• 50:51
  obviously the prodigal son comes to mind is
• 50:53
  another story of, um, what,
• 50:56
  the 1 sheep versus the 99.
• 50:59
  Finding the 1 sheep. This, ah,
• 51:02
  imagery of God being a God who is like,
• 51:05
  where are you humans? Where are you?
• 51:08
  I'm not mad at you. Maybe I'm
• 51:11
  disappointed or sad for you, but
• 51:14
  where are you? I want to be in relationship with you.
• 51:16
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I want you close. Where did you go? I want
• 51:19
  you close. I mean, as I was listening to
• 51:22
  Chuck talk, I was just picturing, you know,
• 51:25
  when sometimes, like, you're in a conversation with a
• 51:27
  friend and you can just see
• 51:30
  them go somewhere else, like
• 51:32
  mentally and like they
• 51:35
  just, like something has
• 51:38
  triggered them or like they've just gone somewhere else. And,
• 51:41
  and it's that like, friendship question.
• 51:44
  Like, okay, where did you go? Like, I want you
• 51:47
  here. I want to, I want to have the.
• 51:49
  I want to be in this relationship.
• 51:53
  >> Loren: Yeah, boy, that's good. And I think this,
• 51:56
  you know, I try not to make this a super theology heavy
• 51:59
  podcast because there's a million theology heavy
• 52:02
  podcasts, but it does really highlight
• 52:05
  the importance. Uh, and I try not to, I try
• 52:07
  not to be like a theology hater, but I do want
• 52:10
  to speak to and recognize the limits per
• 52:13
  se. I guess it might be a kind of way of saying the limits of
• 52:16
  some sort of theologies. Certainly when we think
• 52:19
  about, you know, concepts of
• 52:21
  like original sin and such, it really does
• 52:25
  really shape and frame the narrative of
• 52:28
  the contrast from what you're saying
• 52:30
  of. To this really kind
• 52:33
  of how dare you situation.
• 52:36
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It really
• 52:39
  reframes it. I love that
• 52:42
  as a question that God is
• 52:45
  continually floating out to
• 52:48
  us across the pages of scripture, like, okay,
• 52:51
  where are you? I
• 52:54
  want to be close.
• 52:57
  >> Loren: Well, there's so much good stuff here that I, we're running
• 53:00
  a time and I don't know where else to go here.
• 53:03
  Um,
• 53:06
  I suppose. Let me play this one from
• 53:10
  Casey Tigret, who,
• 53:13
  hey, I really, really appreciated
• 53:17
  his book in this conversation.
• 53:20
  But uh, I think his point here
• 53:23
  about. He talked about his family visiting,
• 53:27
  going, um, blank on it. Um, the
• 53:30
  famous chap church in St.
• 53:33
  Louis.
• 53:33
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh yeah, Notre Dame.
• 53:34
  >> Loren: Um, yeah, thank you. And this is before
• 53:37
  the fire. And he mentions
• 53:39
  like, for him it really brought back great
• 53:42
  memories. But also he can imagine for folks
• 53:46
  who have really painful memories how much it
• 53:48
  reinforce these memories. So let me play this field
• 53:51
  real quick.
• 53:54
  >> Casey Tygrett: Uh, in 2012, my family,
• 53:57
  we went to Paris, France. And this was
• 54:00
  before the,
• 54:01
  um, Notre Dame
• 54:04
  Cathedral had burned. And so we went to an evening
• 54:07
  service and there
• 54:10
  is this children's choir singing and all in French.
• 54:13
  I had no idea what they were saying, but it was just beautiful.
• 54:16
  And so sitting there just in, taking in all of this,
• 54:19
  the sights, the smells, the sounds.
• 54:23
  And I didn't know what they were saying, but there was this.
• 54:25
  >> Loren: There.
• 54:25
  >> Casey Tygrett: It was one of those moments. And I think people listening have had these too, where
• 54:28
  you don't know what's going on. You just know that you're
• 54:31
  like staring through the scrim between heaven and
• 54:34
  earth, like you're experiencing something
• 54:36
  divine. So I'm sitting here telling you the
• 54:39
  story and I can, I
• 54:42
  feel that, like I Feel that sense
• 54:45
  of being in that. In that cathedral that now
• 54:47
  is totally renovated and not
• 54:50
  understanding any of the words, but just sensing that God was near. And
• 54:53
  that's a memory that created a story for
• 54:56
  me that God can be
• 54:59
  in these places that we don't understand. However, if
• 55:02
  somebody else who had a background, let's say they
• 55:05
  had an experience of abuse within a,
• 55:07
  uh, formal, like maybe a Roman Catholic
• 55:10
  setting, and they walked into that same
• 55:13
  cathedral, their experience of God
• 55:16
  is going to be very different. So they bring
• 55:19
  whatever brain, whatever story into that same
• 55:22
  place.
• 55:24
  >> Loren: You know, when I'm listening to that, I'm thinking
• 55:26
  of my episode with, um. I think
• 55:29
  it's Grace Ji Sun Kim
• 55:32
  who again talks about
• 55:35
  the problem of whiteness
• 55:38
  in just the ways that especially
• 55:41
  white Christians have really
• 55:45
  hurt folks of color. You know, there
• 55:48
  really is this both and of. And
• 55:51
  lot of that hand is bad.
• 55:53
  You know, I think that's what
• 55:56
  makes the work of pastors and church
• 55:59
  leaders so difficult, as I'm
• 56:02
  sure there's leaders
• 56:05
  of color who are dealing with both sides of that,
• 56:07
  right?
• 56:08
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Uh,
• 56:11
  yeah, yeah. I think,
• 56:13
  um, it's
• 56:17
  like I serve in this
• 56:20
  historic old church building
• 56:23
  that's like, full of
• 56:26
  the history of St. Catherine's and plaques on the wall
• 56:29
  and stained glass. And we always talk
• 56:32
  about how it feels like a thin space,
• 56:35
  um, and that, like, you can
• 56:38
  feel that generations have been
• 56:40
  gathering here to pray and sing and
• 56:43
  serve and all of those things. Like you feel it when you walk in.
• 56:46
  But it is really important to be
• 56:49
  attentive to what Casey names,
• 56:52
  which is like, that is not everybody's narrative.
• 56:55
  That's not, um, just
• 56:57
  a universal experience.
• 57:00
  And, um.
• 57:03
  And. And I.
• 57:06
  Maybe there's a piece too in that that just
• 57:09
  reminds us to be really intentional
• 57:11
  about what kind of spaces we are
• 57:14
  creating and what.
• 57:18
  How we're. How we are trying
• 57:21
  to make these places of
• 57:24
  welcome and inclusion and safety. And
• 57:27
  I think we fail in lots of ways. And those
• 57:29
  failures can sometimes be pretty epic.
• 57:33
  Um, but it certainly highlights
• 57:36
  that sacred responsibility for us.
• 57:39
  >> Loren: Yeah, it makes me think of an altease, an
• 57:42
  episode I have coming
• 57:44
  for January or at least
• 57:47
  2025, with an author of this book,
• 57:50
  Disabling Leadership. And him and his,
• 57:52
  uh, co authors in the book really lean
• 57:55
  into the importance of churches
• 57:58
  creating inclusive spaces for folks of, you
• 58:01
  know, different, uh, abilities.
• 58:04
  And, uh, really pinpoint, especially in the
• 58:07
  book, you know, some of the ways that our churches
• 58:09
  unintentionally, you know, communicate
• 58:12
  unwelcome in little ways. Like
• 58:15
  in the book they talk about, I guess, I'm stealing the thunder of
• 58:18
  the podcast, but in the book, they talk about, like,
• 58:21
  um, getting a, like
• 58:24
  you, you know, purchasing an old
• 58:27
  kind of historic church building and being really
• 58:29
  excited, but then the pastor being
• 58:32
  real excited, but then getting feedback from those
• 58:35
  who are in, in a, in a wheelchair or some kind of
• 58:38
  mobility device. Like, hey, if we're going to keep the
• 58:41
  sanctuary this way, like, I'm stuck sitting in one
• 58:44
  position. You know, I'm stuck sitting at the back of
• 58:47
  the sanctuary, for instance. Um,
• 58:48
  um. So it really does take some
• 58:51
  intentionality and humility. I,
• 58:54
  I'm thinking to,
• 58:58
  to continue that work of creating. Being
• 59:01
  inclusive and welcoming.
• 59:03
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, inclusive and welcoming. And, and,
• 59:06
  um, that does come up with
• 59:09
  Dr. Dr. Kim. Right.
• 59:12
  Um, and I think it came up with
• 59:15
  Jeff Koos as well in terms of what young
• 59:17
  people are looking for.
• 59:20
  Like, that representation
• 59:23
  piece, um, is very
• 59:25
  linked to inclusion and welcoming
• 59:28
  and what kind of stories get embedded in our
• 59:32
  bodies and souls. And I keep thinking
• 59:35
  about Dr. Kim's, you know,
• 59:37
  naming, growing up with this, like,
• 59:40
  Sunday school picture of a, uh, white Jesus
• 59:43
  and how much that
• 59:46
  kind of forms your idea that,
• 59:49
  like, God isn't like me.
• 59:53
  Um, and in, like,
• 59:56
  how important it is to see women in
• 59:59
  leadership, how important it is to see,
• 1:00:02
  um, people of different races
• 1:00:05
  and ethnicities in leadership, that all
• 1:00:08
  of that is part of how we,
• 1:00:11
  um, how we
• 1:00:14
  are intentional about the story that we're
• 1:00:17
  shaping.
• 1:00:18
  >> Loren: Let me just play this clip here since we're speaking about her
• 1:00:21
  from, uh, Dr. Kim.
• 1:00:23
  >> Martha Tatarnic: It's because we have a white male God,
• 1:00:25
  and that allows white men to be
• 1:00:28
  superior over others because they're closer
• 1:00:31
  to God. Like, this reasoning makes
• 1:00:33
  absolutely no sense, but that's a reasoning that
• 1:00:36
  has been part of our Christian history
• 1:00:39
  and it continues to stay with us. A
• 1:00:42
  feminist, uh, theologian called Mary
• 1:00:44
  Daly said if God is male, then
• 1:00:47
  the male is God. It's this
• 1:00:50
  intertwining and just kind of
• 1:00:52
  this cycle of
• 1:00:54
  perpetuation that one thing
• 1:00:57
  reinforces the other. So the
• 1:01:00
  maleness of God reinforces that, uh, men
• 1:01:02
  are better. The whiteness of God
• 1:01:05
  then says, hey, white people are better.
• 1:01:08
  So it's a horrible, horrible
• 1:01:11
  cycle that continues to be with us in
• 1:01:14
  our churches today.
• 1:01:17
  >> Loren: Kind of goes back to what I was saying, you
• 1:01:20
  know, about theology has implications,
• 1:01:22
  right?
• 1:01:23
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yep. Yeah.
• 1:01:25
  And as I'm listening
• 1:01:28
  to her, you know, there's
• 1:01:31
  this, like, constant complaint
• 1:01:34
  out there in the, in the
• 1:01:37
  air these days about wokeness and
• 1:01:40
  like, political correctness and, and getting
• 1:01:43
  our language right. And people can be quite
• 1:01:45
  disparaging, um, about
• 1:01:48
  uh, that agenda. Right. But
• 1:01:51
  what is missed
• 1:01:54
  in those disparaging comments is that there are very
• 1:01:57
  violent implications to the
• 1:02:00
  problems that she's identifying. Right. Like there
• 1:02:02
  are, there's violence associated with
• 1:02:05
  men being superior over women. There's violence
• 1:02:08
  associated with racism, there's viol violence
• 1:02:11
  associated with white uh,
• 1:02:14
  supremacy. Like these,
• 1:02:17
  these aren't just like nice concepts. And let's
• 1:02:20
  just get our words correct. This is
• 1:02:23
  about like the dignity of
• 1:02:26
  people.
• 1:02:27
  >> Loren: Yeah. You know. Yeah.
• 1:02:29
  I say it this way again. Theology has implications and
• 1:02:32
  I think it's important
• 1:02:35
  as much, as
• 1:02:39
  much as that can be
• 1:02:43
  oversimplified. I don't know if that's the right way of saying it,
• 1:02:46
  but can get lost. It's about
• 1:02:49
  thinking through the implications of words
• 1:02:52
  and language and practices.
• 1:02:54
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
• 1:02:55
  >> Loren: And it's a shame that
• 1:02:58
  it's misinterpreted or misunderstood perhaps.
• 1:03:03
  Let me play this clip because we've been talking
• 1:03:06
  about him. I just uploaded, so hopefully this will work.
• 1:03:09
  Um, Jeff Keuss talks
• 1:03:11
  about again recommend this
• 1:03:14
  because he had data like Martha mentioned earlier
• 1:03:17
  in the episode, in this episode about uh,
• 1:03:20
  folks, young adults interested in church. But
• 1:03:23
  diversity was something he named as important for
• 1:03:26
  folks. Let's. The
• 1:03:28
  more diverse voices, the more diverse inputs. God is
• 1:03:31
  that much bigger homogeneous communities show them a small
• 1:03:34
  God, an easily manageable God. Um,
• 1:03:37
  and the question for churches is.
• 1:03:39
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Do you want to be following a.
• 1:03:40
  >> Loren: Big God or a small God? Yeah,
• 1:03:43
  homogeny is a small God and diversity is a big God. It's
• 1:03:46
  just that. I'll just leave it there.
• 1:03:49
  Recommend uh, that folks because
• 1:03:52
  Jeff was very. The data he had
• 1:03:55
  was that folks are not
• 1:03:58
  antagonistic per se of church. They see the value of
• 1:04:01
  church, but they understand what church is and is not.
• 1:04:04
  And like you said, homogenous communities
• 1:04:07
  are not something they want to be part of.
• 1:04:09
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, he talks about the on ramps and the
• 1:04:12
  off ramps to being part
• 1:04:15
  of church communities. And yeah, the big
• 1:04:17
  encouragement is that young people are
• 1:04:20
  spiritual. They're searching,
• 1:04:23
  they're uh, they see the value
• 1:04:25
  in churches by and large.
• 1:04:27
  Um, but the on
• 1:04:30
  ramps aren't always clear and
• 1:04:33
  the off ramps, um,
• 1:04:36
  can
• 1:04:38
  uh, they
• 1:04:41
  can sort of happen without us
• 1:04:44
  knowing what
• 1:04:47
  the issue is. That leave uh,
• 1:04:50
  somebody feeling disenfranchised from our
• 1:04:52
  churches.
• 1:04:54
  >> Loren: Well, many more episodes we could play
• 1:04:57
  clips from.
• 1:04:58
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, we could just do this all day. Loren, why don't we just
• 1:05:01
  uh. Have you got like another three hours?
• 1:05:04
  >> Loren: I wish. I don't know if folks want to listen to us
• 1:05:07
  for that long. I mean I would want to listen to us, but you
• 1:05:10
  know, obviously biased. So
• 1:05:13
  Martha always gives the appeal at the
• 1:05:15
  beginning of the episode and, and when
• 1:05:19
  I do the intro for her episodes, I repeat her
• 1:05:21
  appeal. Please do listen or
• 1:05:24
  obviously please do listen and subscribe. Uh,
• 1:05:27
  do share this with a friend, especially if you're a leader
• 1:05:30
  and know a church leader. It really does help.
• 1:05:33
  Um, as Martha said, like, we really believe in
• 1:05:36
  what we're, we're doing here. We believe in these conversations
• 1:05:39
  and we want to get them to more people.
• 1:05:42
  Yes, because I want to grow the podcast and we want to grow the podcast, but also
• 1:05:45
  because we think they're helpful for people.
• 1:05:47
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
• 1:05:48
  >> Loren: Martha, what else?
• 1:05:51
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, like we want to grow the,
• 1:05:54
  that community of
• 1:05:56
  companionship and resourcing in
• 1:05:59
  of uh, a job that
• 1:06:02
  can feel really complex and sometimes
• 1:06:04
  lonely and um,
• 1:06:09
  full of pressure points. So like, we
• 1:06:12
  want this to be a place where not only are
• 1:06:14
  we providing a lot of different perspectives
• 1:06:17
  as we kind of create crowdsource, this thing
• 1:06:20
  that we call the future of the church,
• 1:06:23
  um, but also
• 1:06:25
  that like we're hearing from our listeners. I think that's
• 1:06:28
  my appeal that I would want to just keep putting out. Like
• 1:06:31
  we'd love to hear from the people listening.
• 1:06:34
  It's nice to know what resonates with you.
• 1:06:37
  It's nice to know what it sparks for
• 1:06:40
  you. Um, it's nice
• 1:06:42
  to get um,
• 1:06:46
  some ideas for future
• 1:06:49
  episodes. So yeah, weigh in
• 1:06:52
  and listen and share
• 1:06:55
  and let's just continue
• 1:06:58
  to really make this a landing point for all of
• 1:07:00
  us in our ministry weeks where we know that we
• 1:07:03
  can turn and hear some
• 1:07:06
  real insight,
• 1:07:08
  um, and feel like we have
• 1:07:12
  a, ah, safe community where we're
• 1:07:15
  figuring this out together.
• 1:07:17
  >> Loren: Yeah, and I think it goes back to kind of how you started this
• 1:07:20
  conversation. You know, as you got
• 1:07:23
  back in, you were, you know,
• 1:07:25
  bombarded with these pressures
• 1:07:28
  of budget and you know,
• 1:07:31
  ministry day to day and
• 1:07:34
  rising costs. Like this
• 1:07:37
  is what this podcast, this is why this
• 1:07:40
  podcast covers so many of these diverse topics because
• 1:07:43
  we understand the diversity and
• 1:07:46
  complexity of the job and of church ministry
• 1:07:48
  today. That's why we try to bring on such diverse voices
• 1:07:51
  and from different perspectives. And I, you
• 1:07:54
  know, and again, this is why I say this is
• 1:07:57
  like, it's not
• 1:08:00
  just solely meant for church pastors. Like,
• 1:08:04
  you know, if you want to share this with some of your church leaders, your lay leaders, like,
• 1:08:07
  so to help them get a good perspective on
• 1:08:09
  what your job is like and what the task
• 1:08:12
  of ministry is like.
• 1:08:13
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I know a lot of like my congregants
• 1:08:16
  listen to this and, and
• 1:08:19
  it's not even just about recognizing,
• 1:08:23
  like, what my job is. Like, it's about recognizing
• 1:08:25
  that we're all, like, we all care
• 1:08:28
  about our church together and we
• 1:08:31
  all like, whether we're ordained or lay
• 1:08:33
  people, like, we're all bringing our gifts to the table
• 1:08:36
  in terms of how we shape the church.
• 1:08:39
  So, yeah, by no means is it just for
• 1:08:42
  people in ordained leadership. Like, it, uh,
• 1:08:45
  it's for people who care about the church
• 1:08:48
  that we're creating.
• 1:08:50
  >> Loren: Yeah. Well, let me just say one last thanks
• 1:08:53
  to you, Martha. Thanks to our listeners. Thanks for.
• 1:08:56
  Thanks for guests. You know, this, this show is
• 1:08:58
  obviously an interview format and
• 1:09:01
  really appreciate all the guests who have come on
• 1:09:05
  not just this past season, but over the 200
• 1:09:08
  episodes. So thank you. Thank, uh, you all
• 1:09:10
  for being a part of this.
• 1:09:13
  >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Thank you.
• 1:09:15
  >> Loren: Shall we end this with a word of peace?
• 1:09:17
  >> Martha Tatarnic: I think we should, Martha.
• 1:09:20
  >> Loren: May God's peace be with you.
• 1:09:22
  >> Martha Tatarnic: And also.
• 1:09:29
  >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast Podcast.
• 1:09:31
  The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
• 1:09:34
  Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
• 1:09:37
  questions, comments and ideas for future
• 1:09:39
  episodes. Visit our
• 1:09:41
  website@future-christian.com and
• 1:09:44
  find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
• 1:09:47
  page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
• 1:09:50
  before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the
• 1:09:52
  POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
• 1:09:55
  out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.